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Far East
04-27-2008, 01:01 PM
Many threads and posts have focused on Baker's lineup construction.

But here are the latest top 9 Reds' hitters, ranked according to OPS:



Paul Bako 0.954
Edwin Encarnación 0.930
Joey Votto 0.904
Jerry Hairston Jr. 0.833
Jeff Keppinger 0.801
Corey Patterson 0.792
Brandon Phillips 0.760
Ken Griffey Jr. 0.752
Adam Dunn 0.724

So, unless Dunn can pitch, he doesn't make the starting team. Obvious hyperbole here, in that Griffey just barely beats him out, that Hairston has so many fewer plate appearances, and that Dunn's currently hitting way below his expected normal mashing.

But, seriously, it makes you wonder if the Reds' record would be any better if Hairston, instead of Castro, (and a healthy Ross, instead of Hopper) had come north with the team from ST. Hairston and Ross are not all-stars, but they might add just enough right-handed quality at bats.

edabbs44
04-27-2008, 01:05 PM
Many threads and posts have focused on Baker's lineup construction.

But here are the latest top 9 Reds' hitters, ranked according to OPS:



Paul Bako 0.954
Edwin Encarnación 0.930
Joey Votto 0.904
Jerry Hairston Jr. 0.833
Jeff Keppinger 0.801
Corey Patterson 0.792
Brandon Phillips 0.760
Ken Griffey Jr. 0.752
Adam Dunn 0.724

So, unless Dunn can pitch, he doesn't make the starting team. Obvious hyperbole here, in that Griffey just barely beats him out, that Hairston has so many fewer plate appearances, and that Dunn's currently hitting way below his expected normal mashing.

But, seriously, it makes you wonder if the Reds' record would be any better if Hairston, instead of Castro, (and a healthy Ross, instead of Hopper) had come north with the team from ST. Hairston and Ross are not all-stars, but they might add just enough right-handed quality at bats.

Hairston is this week's Corey Patterson. He'll fall back to Earth.

Jpup
04-27-2008, 01:06 PM
If Dusty Baker starts Hairston everyday over Adam Dunn, I will find another team to watch.

marcshoe
04-27-2008, 02:45 PM
The name at the top of the list should tell you that this isn't a real-world ranking of the Reds' top offensive players. One month from now the list will look radically different.

Highlifeman21
04-27-2008, 07:05 PM
Paul Bako 0.954
Edwin Encarnación 0.930
Joey Votto 0.904
Jerry Hairston Jr. 0.833
Jeff Keppinger 0.801
Corey Patterson 0.792
Brandon Phillips 0.760
Ken Griffey Jr. 0.752
Adam Dunn 0.724


Remove Hairston from the list, and there's your starting 8 position players. "Platoon" Ross and Bako, and the other 7 remain unchanged.

PuffyPig
04-27-2008, 07:35 PM
But, seriously, it makes you wonder if the Reds' record would be any better if Hairston, instead of Castro, (and a healthy Ross, instead of Hopper) had come north with the team from ST. Hairston and Ross are not all-stars, but they might add just enough right-handed quality at bats.


Well,since Ross was injured,nothing anyone could do.

So the only real difference is Hairston vs. Castro.

Since over his lifetime, Hairston has been almost "Castro bad", it really won't have made much difference.

GAC
04-27-2008, 09:36 PM
It's WHERE Dusty bats them in that order that confuses me.

Patterson has justed raised his OB% to an impressive .286, so his leading off is secure for awhile.

But EE has really came around with the bat, and he's batting 7th with a .379 OB% and .544 SLG%.

Dunn is really struggling (and pressing) right now. His SLG% is a frightful .342, but he continues to get on base (.381). I still believe he could be more beneficial to us right now, because he's getting on base, if they moved him up in this batting order. Dunn is going to come around IMO.

But that's not gonna happen after they scored lots of runs in these last two games vs SF. ;)

WebScorpion
04-27-2008, 09:49 PM
Yea, I think Dusty read this thread cause he started all those top guys except he substituted Freel for Griffey. They scored 10 runs, so I wonder if Griffey and/or Dunn will ever crack the lineup again. :D

Spring~Fields
04-27-2008, 09:50 PM
Many threads and posts have focused on Baker's lineup construction.

But here are the latest top 9 Reds' hitters, ranked according to OPS:



Paul Bako 0.954
Edwin Encarnación 0.930
Joey Votto 0.904
Jerry Hairston Jr. 0.833
Jeff Keppinger 0.801
Corey Patterson 0.792
Brandon Phillips 0.760
Ken Griffey Jr. 0.752
Adam Dunn 0.724

So, unless Dunn can pitch, he doesn't make the starting team. Obvious hyperbole here, in that Griffey just barely beats him out, that Hairston has so many fewer plate appearances, and that Dunn's currently hitting way below his expected normal mashing.

But, seriously, it makes you wonder if the Reds' record would be any better if Hairston, instead of Castro, (and a healthy Ross, instead of Hopper) had come north with the team from ST. Hairston and Ross are not all-stars, but they might add just enough right-handed quality at bats.

Depends on if your going by OBP or OPS

I think that their offense would have scored more if they had been placed in the lineup that opitimized their skill history, and perhaps that would have led to more W's. I don't think Patterson or Hairston brings much to the Reds..

The guys at the bottom of these are getting hurt by a lack of AB and playing time, on the other hand, Patterson is at his norms.



OBP
Paul Bako - .411 Career - .309
Jerry Hairston Jr. - .391 Career - .325
Adam Dunn - .381 Career - .381
Edwin Encarcion - .379 Career - .350
Jeff Keppinger - .364 Career - .364
Ken Griffey Jr. - .330 Career - .373
Joey Votto - .319 Career - .346
Ryan Freel - .333 Career - .358
Norris Hopper - .321 Career - .375
Scott Hatteberg - .308 Career - .362
Brandon Phillips - .321 Career - .307
Javier Valetin - .276 Career - .308
Corey Patterson - .286 Career - .297

OPS

Paul Bako .958 Career - .632
Edwin Encarcion .923 Career - .808
Joey Votto .869 Career - .906
Jerry Hairston Jr. .846 Career - .683
Jeff Keppinger .809 Career - .805
Corey Patterson .786 Career - .713
Brandon Phillips .841 Career - .727
Ken Griffey Jr. - .752 Career - .925
Adam Dunn - .724 Career - .896
Ryan Freel - .695 Career - .734
Norris Hopper - .561 Career - .760
Javier Valentin - .535 Career - .707
Scott Hatteberg - .533 Career - .773

Spring~Fields
04-27-2008, 09:55 PM
But that's not gonna happen after they scored lots of runs in these last two games vs SF. ;)

Nope not gonna happen, it was all Dusty, Zito's struggles had nothing to do with it. It was his lineup for sure. ;)

*BaseClogger*
04-27-2008, 10:10 PM
while OPS is a nice tool for a rough measurement, there are better routes to finding the Reds best hitters. One point of OB% does not equal one point of SLG%...

missionhockey21
04-27-2008, 10:14 PM
Paul Bako 0.954 8.94
Edwin Encarnación 0.930 7.43
Joey Votto 0.904 5.72
Jerry Hairston Jr. 0.833 6.29 (in 30 glorious AB's)
Jeff Keppinger 0.801 5.16
Corey Patterson 0.792 4.98
Brandon Phillips 0.760 5.45
Ken Griffey Jr. 0.752 4.65
Adam Dunn 0.724 5.32

According to RC/27.

I also second GAC's notion. Bump Dunn up to the two spot, a spot where has had career success and put that .380 OBP to good use.

*BaseClogger*
04-27-2008, 10:16 PM
defense? baserunning?

Spring~Fields
04-27-2008, 10:27 PM
Paul Bako 0.954 8.94
Edwin Encarnación 0.930 7.43
Joey Votto 0.904 5.72
Jerry Hairston Jr. 0.833 6.29 (in 30 glorious AB's)
Jeff Keppinger 0.801 5.16
Corey Patterson 0.792 4.98
Brandon Phillips 0.760 5.45
Ken Griffey Jr. 0.752 4.65
Adam Dunn 0.724 5.32

According to RC/27.

I also second GAC's notion. Bump Dunn up to the two spot, a spot where has had career success and put that .380 OBP to good use.

Yes, that should have happened some time ago for the reasons you state, and perhaps they would have actually pitched to Dunn once in awhile.

Spring~Fields
04-27-2008, 10:35 PM
P/PA
Jerry Hairston Jr. - 4.26
Adam Dunn - 4.25
Javier Valentin - 4.21
Edwin Encarcion - 3.98
Ken Griffey Jr. - 3.86
Paul Bako - 3.83
Ryan Freel - 3.80
Brandon Phillips - 3.58
Corey Patterson - 3.58
Jeff Keppinger - 3.54
Scott Hatteberg - 3.51
Joey Votto - 3.42
345 Norris Hopper - 2.67

RC
Edwin Encarcion - 17.4
Jeff Keppinger - 13.9
Paul Bako - 13.4
Ken Griffey Jr. - 12.4
Brandon Phillips - 12.3
Adam Dunn - 12.0
Joey Votto - 10.9
Corey Patterson - 10.7
Ryan Freel - 4.0
Jerry Hairston Jr. - 2.9
Scott Hatteberg - 2.5
Norris Hopper - 2.5
Javier Valentin - 2.1

RC27
Paul Bako - 9.06
Edwin Encarcion - 7.45
Joey Votto - 6.14
Jerry Hairston Jr. - 5.94
Adam Dunn - 5.32
Jeff Keppinger - 4.93
Corey Patterson - 4.80
Ken Griffey Jr. - 4.65
Brandon Phillips - 4.43
Norris Hopper - 3.27
Ryan Freel - 3.21
Javier Valetin - 2.79
Scott Hatteberg - 2.44

Far East
04-28-2008, 10:15 AM
...One point of OB% does not equal one point of SLG%...
What is the consensus thinking about the SLG/OBP ratio?

Spring~Fields
04-28-2008, 10:56 AM
It's WHERE Dusty bats them in that order that confuses me.

Patterson has justed raised his OB% to an impressive .286, so his leading off is secure for awhile.

But EE has really came around with the bat, and he's batting 7th with a .379 OB% and .544 SLG%.

Dunn is really struggling (and pressing) right now. His SLG% is a frightful .342, but he continues to get on base (.381). I still believe he could be more beneficial to us right now, because he's getting on base, if they moved him up in this batting order. Dunn is going to come around IMO.



Does he have an alternative GAC ? Maybe something like below ?


OBP Lineup - with SLG and OPS

Keppinger
.364 OBP/.446 SLG/ .809 OPS
Dunn
.381 OBP/.342 SLG/ .724 OPS
Encarcion
.379 OBP/ .544 SLG / .923 OPS
Votto
.319 OBP/ .549 SLG / .869 OPS
Griffey
.330 OBP/ .422 SLG / .752 OPS
Phillips
.321 OBP/ .520 SLG / .841 OPS
Patterson/Freel/Hairston
286/333/.391 OBP .500/.362/.455 SLG .786/.695/.846 OPS
Bako
.411 OBP/ .547 SLG / .958 OPS

Reasoning:
Keppinger - Consistent hitter, gets on base, doesn’t make a lot of mistakes when on base.

Dunn - Has career .896 OPS hitting down in the order is hurting him, opponents pitching around him effectively taking the bat out of his hand. He might see more pitches in 2 hole, if not he walks (a lot, take advantage of it) the others drive him in.

Encarcion - He’s hot right now, take advantage of it, career .808 OPS, higher SLG and OPS right now

Votto - Doing well, give him protection, might do more, time to find out. Higher slugging right now, decent OPS

Griffey - Large drop in production numbers, can improve,
Career .552 SLG / .925 OPS age/slump ???

Phillips - Decent SLG and OPS right now for him, needs to use selective bat control, stay out of free swinging bad habits.

Patterson/Freel/Hairston - rotating/platoon type players to keep them sharp and others rested.

Bako - Seems like a decent catcher, hitting over his head, but, better hitter than Ross.

No auto outs in the lower half of the lineup that can produce runs.