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OnBaseMachine
04-28-2008, 11:36 PM
Krivsky’s final say

By Hal McCoy | Monday, April 28, 2008, 10:06 PM
Latest comment

Wayne Krivsky is finding it difficult to sever his ties with the Cincinnati Reds after he was fired and says, “I must be crazy because I hope the Reds win every game the rest of the year and I still get on-line every morning to check how the minor-league teams did.”

And before he fades into the woodwork, Krivsky wants to clear a few things off his desk and his mind.

One of the things he wants known is that Dusty Baker was his choice to manage the Reds and he told owner Bob Castellini at the time, “Dusty Baker is my man and he is the guy for the job.” And Krivsky added, “It was my recommendation and Bob agreed.”

Krivsky said he held the advance scoutomh job open for interim manager Pete Mackanin for if he didn’t find a job, but he hooked on with the New York Yankees.

Then there was the trade of outfielder Josh Hamilton for pitcher Edinson Volquez (a deal that so far works both ways) and the signing of pitcher Josh Fogg.

“When I’m told before the season that I better win, I’m going to get all the pitching I can get,” he said. “Fogg was a $100,000 gamble, what we would pay him if he didn’t make the team. He made it so it cost $1.5 million and I still think it’s a good deal.

“When Homer Bailey didn’t make the team and Matt Belisle was injured, who did we have for our fifth starting spot? Nobody,” he said. “That’s where Fogg fit in. He made $3.7 million from the Rockies last year.”

And then there was the $3 million paid to outfielder Corey Patterson.

“I was told to get him signed, whatever it takes,” said Krivsky, who signed him for $3 million. Patterson was paid $4.7 million last year.

And Mike Stanton? “Stanton and the $3.5 million is on me,” he said. “And Juan Castro ($975,000), but I had something going with the Los Angeles Dodgers when I was let go. I told (new GM) Walt Jocketty to please try to find something for Castro.”

Krivsky kept quiet about pitcher Rheal Cormier and it was thought the Reds had to eat his salary when they released him. But when the Reds traded outfielder Chris Denorfia to Oakland the A’s agreed to pay Cormier’s $2 million, “And, actually, with interest we got $2.08 million,” said Krivsky.

Well, hey, now that we’ve seen Toronto eat about $10 million to dump Frank Howard and the penny-pounding Pittsburgh Pirates pour Heinez ketchup on $10 million for Matt Morris and eat it, how bad is Stanton’s $3.5 million?

As Krivsky said, “If you haven’t had at least one bad contract or made one bad decision, then you haven’t been a general manager.”

So true, so true.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2008, 11:37 PM
The man went out with class. Thanks Wayne. You did a good job and I'll miss ya.

reds44
04-28-2008, 11:40 PM
Why wouldn't he root for the Reds? The better the team he built does, the more likely it is that he gets another job.

Goodbye Wayne, it's time for everyone to move on.

Matt700wlw
04-28-2008, 11:40 PM
I'd love to know what other teams were offering CP that it took $3 million to get the deal done....because I haven't heard of one exactly throwing a ton of money at the guy.

As far as Wayne goes...class act, and he'll land on his feet. Did plenty of good things to get the organization back on track, but at the big league level, he didn't win.

To Castellini, that's the bottom line.

Could be better suited for a more patient owner, who doesn't own a team in which the fans have watched a losing product for so long...

redsfan30
04-28-2008, 11:42 PM
I'm certainly rooting for Wayne to pick up another GM job, and I think he'll definetly get that shot someday.

OnBaseMachine
04-28-2008, 11:42 PM
I'd love to know what other teams were offering CP that it took $3 million to get the deal done....because I haven't heard of one exactly throwing a ton of money at the guy.

From the sound of it, someone other than Wayne pushed for Patterson.

TOBTTReds
04-28-2008, 11:44 PM
Krivsky kept quiet about pitcher Rheal Cormier and it was thought the Reds had to eat his salary when they released him. But when the Reds traded outfielder Chris Denorfia to Oakland the A’s agreed to pay Cormier’s $2 million, “And, actually, with interest we got $2.08 million,” said Krivsky.


This stands out. Good for him.

Matt700wlw
04-28-2008, 11:45 PM
From the sound of it, someone other than Wayne pushed for Patterson.

Dusty and Bob probably...but I'm still curious how it took $3 million bucks if other teams weren't exactly lining up for his services...

Maybe it did, and maybe they were, I don't know, but I didn't hear of any.

Unassisted
04-28-2008, 11:45 PM
Darn, I was hoping he would provide a candid assessment of The Trade. :(

Matt700wlw
04-28-2008, 11:45 PM
This stands out. Good for him.

How about that? Nice.

paulrichjr
04-28-2008, 11:49 PM
I agree with him. He was the right man for the job. This team's future hasn't been this bright since the late 1980s. (1990 was the result)

KoryMac5
04-28-2008, 11:53 PM
Krivsky kept quiet about pitcher Rheal Cormier and it was thought the Reds had to eat his salary when they released him. But when the Reds traded outfielder Chris Denorfia to Oakland the A’s agreed to pay Cormier’s $2 million, “And, actually, with interest we got $2.08 million,” said Krivsky.

Had no idea about that one, he really did play it close to the vest even when it was to his benefit. I liked many of his deals too bad the GM platoon didn't work out.

REDREAD
04-28-2008, 11:56 PM
From the sound of it, someone other than Wayne pushed for Patterson.

It all depends. I don't know.
It could've gone this way. The Reds realize they don't have a CF after Hamilton is dealt. Wayne tells ownership that Patterson is the best option available. Cast says "Do what it takes to sign him".

Not saying it DID happen, but Wayne has been extremely defensive on his way out. Note, he never denied Patterson was his idea, he just said he was told to "do what it takes".. If Dusty was pushing for Patterson and Wayne disagreed, why didn't Wayne come up with a better option if he disagreed with Patterson? IMO, Patterson was a good sign, simply because we needed a CF.

Wayne's excuses about Comeir and Castro are weak. They were both horrible decisions. Even if he traded Juan before he left, it was still a dumb move.
Even if he got 2 million from the A's, the Cormeir move still sucked.

fearofpopvol1
04-28-2008, 11:56 PM
Interesting. I really thought Baker was BCast's choice. Sounds like that was not the case.

I doubt Krivsky would want to do it, but why not try to get him on as the advanced scout? He clearly would be a great fit.

I do wish Wayne the best though. He may not have met many of the unrealistic expectations put on him, but I think he did a fine job in his 2 years in Cincy.

VR
04-28-2008, 11:57 PM
Krivsky’s final say

By Hal McCoy | Monday, April 28, 2008, 10:06 PM
Latest comment



Krivsky kept quiet about pitcher Rheal Cormier and it was thought the Reds had to eat his salary when they released him. But when the Reds traded outfielder Chris Denorfia to Oakland the A’s agreed to pay Cormier’s $2 million, “And, actually, with interest we got $2.08 million,” said Krivsky.


http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

I'm lost on this one. I don't understand Oakland including 2M in the Deno as paying for Cormier?

Big Klu
04-29-2008, 12:10 AM
Well, hey, now that we’ve seen Toronto eat about $10 million to dump Frank Howard and the penny-pounding Pittsburgh Pirates pour Heinez ketchup on $10 million for Matt Morris and eat it, how bad is Stanton’s $3.5 million?

Frank Howard is still playing?!

paulrichjr
04-29-2008, 12:15 AM
Anyone suprised that someone so tight-lipped as a GM has become so loose as the ex-GM?

RedlegJake
04-29-2008, 12:15 AM
Wayne Krivsky brought some respectability back to a franchise that was becoming a laughing stock. He changed ground rules that weren't working for developing players and put new procedures in place that have certainly paid dividends. If his 1st round choices underwhelmed he did a very good job drafting deep. A lot of the Reds farm depth right now comes from guys drafted in later rounds. He found several players that have been productive and made some good trades. Yes, he made some bad moves. He made some contract mistakes. But he took a moribund franchise and turned it in the right direction. A new guy is in his spot now and I hope Jocketty does a great job. But I also thank WK for what he did while he was here, and for the class he added to the Reds FO after years of buffoonery. I hope he gets a new gig and a shot somewhere else. I really think he deserves it.

mbgrayson
04-29-2008, 12:16 AM
Good luck Wayne and God bles you. We hardly knew ye....

Sea Ray
04-29-2008, 12:16 AM
I'm lost on this one. I don't understand Oakland including 2M in the Deno as paying for Cormier?

I agree. If Wayne got $2mill out of Oakland in the Denorfia deal great, but what does that have to do with Cormier? You mean to tell me Oakland wouldn't have included the money if WK had never acquired Cormier?

When the owner says pay whatever it's his way of giving the GM some space. It doesn't reflect well on the GM if he makes a bad deal. If Patterson got a $3mill offer from another team then I'm happy for him. Doesn't mean we should overpay. He wasn't worth a bidding war.

What about Ryan Freel's deal? If it wasn't for that, he wouldn't be on this roster right now.

This roster is really out of balance due to WK's guaranteed contracts to folks like Freel, Hatte, Ross and Castro.

Screwball
04-29-2008, 12:18 AM
I hope he gets a new gig and a shot somewhere else. I really think he deserves it.

I agree. I just hope it's somewhere out of the NL Central.

WMR
04-29-2008, 12:21 AM
Seems to me that the Cormier deal was still a horrific one. That money could have been allocated towards other expenditures.

paulrichjr
04-29-2008, 12:22 AM
I wouldn't want the Reds EVER trading with him.

RedsManRick
04-29-2008, 12:23 AM
Toronto cut Frank Howard? Were they even around back then?

Patrick Bateman
04-29-2008, 12:25 AM
Seems to me that the Cormier deal was still a horrific one. That money could have been allocated towards other expenditures.

Exactly, in the end, Krisky still had to give up assets to make up for Cormier. Either way, there was nothing significant lossed, the mistake was targeting Cormier as any kind of help in the first place.

BCubb2003
04-29-2008, 12:27 AM
Frank Howard was the original Big Hurt.

WMR
04-29-2008, 12:30 AM
Exactly, in the end, Krisky still had to give up assets to make up for Cormier. Either way, there was nothing significant lossed, the mistake was targeting Cormier as any kind of help in the first place.

How do you figure there was nothing significantly lost?

Who knows how else that 2 million (2.08 with interest) could have been otherwise utilized.

Patrick Bateman
04-29-2008, 12:40 AM
How do you figure there was nothing significantly lost?

Who knows how else that 2 million (2.08 with interest) could have been otherwise utilized.

It's 2M. That doesn't go very far these days. I guess it pays for 2/3rds of Affeldt?

Anyways, we got the money back, what we lost was part of Denorfia to cover the tracks. We have plenty of tweener types just like him. I'm not particularly worried about it.

WMR
04-29-2008, 12:42 AM
Two million would take Coffey and Castro off the books for this season.

Not to mention the opportunity cost surrendered by losing Denorfia. Contemplated in those terms, it could actually be more than four million if you never made the deal in the first place.

Patrick Bateman
04-29-2008, 12:44 AM
Two million would take Coffey and Castro off the books for this season.

And where does that extra 2M get us? The money spent on those guys is so small that I could really care less... bigger things to worry about. The bigger problem with those guys was the amount of time spent on the roster. Bray is the superior pitcher and Hairston or whoever is better than Castro. The 2M loss doesn't make much of a difference.

WMR
04-29-2008, 12:46 AM
I just think it's fairly disingenuous for Krivsky to attempt to subtract the monstrosity that was the Cormier deal/extension from his ledger simply because he was able to make another move to mitigate or "cover up" for his blunder, especially considering that the same move could have been used elsewhere to benefit the club in other ways if the Cormier deal was never contemplated.

When you combine the Cormier debacle with his other ill-advised extensions/contracts, the money becomes "significant" (all money is significant, IMO) very quickly. He's trying to make himself look "a bit better" when he really hasn't earned that right.

AmarilloRed
04-29-2008, 12:57 AM
He did a good job of turning things around with the Reds organization. I would have to say he was the best GM the Reds have had in quite some time, even if he did make some mistakes along the way. I wish him the best in whatever he decides to do in the future.

WVRedsFan
04-29-2008, 01:13 AM
I really think Wayne had his heart in the job, and we haven't heard any sour grapes from him. Given the right time and the right team, he might be a great GM. Trouble is or was (depending on how you look at it), the Reds were not the right team nor did he arrive at the right time. He was given the task to win now when he had neither the experience nor the wherewithal to do it. In fear, he apparently shut out key employees and his eventual successor from high level meetings and discussions. That was the end for him.

I hope he gets another chance with another team, preferably in the American League, and I hope he does well. I also hope that Hal and the rest of the Cincinnati press will leave him alone and start to concentrate on the present employees of the Reds amd move on.

dougdirt
04-29-2008, 01:14 AM
Seriously, when a GM makes a bad signing and its less than 6 million dollars a year who cares? When you get stuck with Mike Hampton, Barry Zito, Matt Morris type contracts I can deal with some complaints, but come on... he made some mistakes, but what was the most expensive contract he had to deal with 4 million bucks or something trivial like that?

Caveat Emperor
04-29-2008, 01:27 AM
Anyone suprised that someone so tight-lipped as a GM has become so loose as the ex-GM?

Information is power when it comes to leverage and negotiations. Sometimes there is a strategic advantage to being tight-lipped and keeping your opposition guessing about your true targets and intentions. Sometimes there is an advantage to floating information in public to see how your opposition reacts.

The media hates being played that way, but in high-stakes negotiations they're as much a tool to be used as anything else. Krivsky used them as such (and, undoubtedly, ticked some people off in the process).

But, now that he's out of that game, what does he have to lose by opening up a bit?

Patrick Bateman
04-29-2008, 01:30 AM
I just think it's fairly disingenuous for Krivsky to attempt to subtract the monstrosity that was the Cormier deal/extension from his ledger simply because he was able to make another move to mitigate or "cover up" for his blunder, especially considering that the same move could have been used elsewhere to benefit the club in other ways if the Cormier deal was never contemplated.

When you combine the Cormier debacle with his other ill-advised extensions/contracts, the money becomes "significant" (all money is significant, IMO) very quickly. He's trying to make himself look "a bit better" when he really hasn't earned that right.

I actually agree with you WMR. The premise that grabbing 2M in the Oakland trade somehow negates the Cormier move is badly misguided. He still had to give up assets to correct his mistake. But seriously, in the long run, what does the loss of some of Deno's value really mean in the long run. You can add up all of his errors and come up with some very meaningful losses (and you would have a good point), but regarding the substantial moves, Krivsky got them right more often than not which more than makes up for the blemishes IMO.

WMR
04-29-2008, 01:36 AM
I actually agree with you WMR. The premise that grabbing 2M in the Oakland trade somehow negates the Cormier move is badly misguided. He still had to give up assets to correct his mistake. But seriously, in the long run, what does the loss of some of Deno's value really mean in the long run. You can add up all of his errors and come up with some very meaningful losses (and you would have a good point), but regarding the substantial moves, Krivsky got them right more often than not which more than makes up for the blemishes IMO.

I agree with you.

We're on the same page.

fearofpopvol1
04-29-2008, 02:36 AM
Information is power when it comes to leverage and negotiations. Sometimes there is a strategic advantage to being tight-lipped and keeping your opposition guessing about your true targets and intentions. Sometimes there is an advantage to floating information in public to see how your opposition reacts.

The media hates being played that way, but in high-stakes negotiations they're as much a tool to be used as anything else. Krivsky used them as such (and, undoubtedly, ticked some people off in the process).

But, now that he's out of that game, what does he have to lose by opening up a bit?

Yep, and I agree completely with you on this. I think this strategy is exactly how the Reds were able to land Cordero. Besides, Wayne was not a player. Having the media in his corner wasn't something he really needed.

RFS62
04-29-2008, 07:30 AM
Wayne Krivsky brought some respectability back to a franchise that was becoming a laughing stock. He changed ground rules that weren't working for developing players and put new procedures in place that have certainly paid dividends. If his 1st round choices underwhelmed he did a very good job drafting deep. A lot of the Reds farm depth right now comes from guys drafted in later rounds. He found several players that have been productive and made some good trades. Yes, he made some bad moves. He made some contract mistakes. But he took a moribund franchise and turned it in the right direction. A new guy is in his spot now and I hope Jocketty does a great job. But I also thank WK for what he did while he was here, and for the class he added to the Reds FO after years of buffoonery. I hope he gets a new gig and a shot somewhere else. I really think he deserves it.



Well said.

edabbs44
04-29-2008, 08:13 AM
Seriously, when a GM makes a bad signing and its less than 6 million dollars a year who cares? When you get stuck with Mike Hampton, Barry Zito, Matt Morris type contracts I can deal with some complaints, but come on... he made some mistakes, but what was the most expensive contract he had to deal with 4 million bucks or something trivial like that?

Mistakes like that also cost a roster spot. Stanton cost $7MM or so and a year of putridness when he was expected to contribute.

edabbs44
04-29-2008, 08:15 AM
And where does that extra 2M get us? The money spent on those guys is so small that I could really care less... bigger things to worry about. The bigger problem with those guys was the amount of time spent on the roster. Bray is the superior pitcher and Hairston or whoever is better than Castro. The 2M loss doesn't make much of a difference.

It's not like he stole $2MM from Oakland. Obviously the player return wasn't enough for Denorfia, so Oakland had to kick in cash.

If WK didn't need to cover up the Cormier disaster, there may have been another player thrown in.

paulrichjr
04-29-2008, 08:44 AM
I really think Wayne had his heart in the job, and we haven't heard any sour grapes from him. Given the right time and the right team, he might be a great GM. Trouble is or was (depending on how you look at it), the Reds were not the right team nor did he arrive at the right time. He was given the task to win now when he had neither the experience nor the wherewithal to do it. In fear, he apparently shut out key employees and his eventual successor from high level meetings and discussions. That was the end for him.

I hope he gets another chance with another team, preferably in the American League, and I hope he does well. I also hope that Hal and the rest of the Cincinnati press will leave him alone and start to concentrate on the present employees of the Reds amd move on.

Anyone remember how Wayne won the job? I do. By stating that the Reds COULD WIN NOW. I thought at the time that he oversold himself and I guess I was right.

lollipopcurve
04-29-2008, 08:55 AM
the monstrosity that was the Cormier deal/extension

Come on. Bad deal, yes. Monstrosity? Not even close. Folks need to see the big picture here -- this kind of cherrypicking relatively minor mistakes is distortion.

princeton
04-29-2008, 09:25 AM
“I was told..."


there was too much of that in Cincy. Hopefully it changes now. Unfortunately, once it starts, it generally gets worse.

And Jocketty has been its victim before, in St Louis. Nice guys often are. I figure that it happens again.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 09:43 AM
I'm lost on this one. I don't understand Oakland including 2M in the Deno as paying for Cormier?

Because it doesn't make sense :)
It's just Wayne's way of "clearing the ledger" of his mistakes. This is twice he's tried to make excuses about Cormier and how that shouldn't count against him.

Really, I'd have a lot more respect for Wayne if on the way out he admited he made some mistakes along with the good moves. No need to get specific.
Instead, Wayne has gotten really defensive. This rationalization that Stanton was the only bad move he's made is blatantly absurd. Really, if he can't acknowledge that AGon, Freel extension, Arroyo extension, Cormier, etc are mistakes, then I'm even more happy that he got fired. Nothing worse than a leader that refuses to admit his mistakes. That's the type of person that continues to make more mistakes, because he refuses to learn.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 09:45 AM
Anyone suprised that someone so tight-lipped as a GM has become so loose as the ex-GM?

He's trying to desperately protect his "legacy". It's quite pathetic in my opinion.

Just like he filed that baseless grievence against the Nationals. It was all about Wayne trying to save face, as opposed to admiting he made a mistake.

top6
04-29-2008, 09:45 AM
I'm lost on this one. I don't understand Oakland including 2M in the Deno as paying for Cormier?
It also doesn't let him off the hook. That just means because of the terrible contract he signed Cormier to - which everyone said was crazy at the time - we had to ask for $2m from the As instead of a decent, low-level prospect. So the Reds are down a decent player thanks to that signing.

I also don't personally think it's that "classy" to repeatedly bring this up, but that's just me.

Also, this...

One of the things he wants known is that Dusty Baker was his choice to manage the Reds and he told owner Bob Castellini at the time, “Dusty Baker is my man and he is the guy for the job.” And Krivsky added, “It was my recommendation and Bob agreed.”
..makes it pretty clear that getting rid of Krivisky was probably the right thing to do, since a GM who thinks paying that much money for a terrible, big-name manager is a good idea was never going to win in a small market like Cincinnati. (I personally would have given him until the end of his contract, however.)

On the other hand, this...

And then there was the $3 million paid to outfielder Corey Patterson.

“I was told to get him signed, whatever it takes,” said Krivsky, who signed him for $3 million. Patterson was paid $4.7 million last year.
...sends shivers down my spine, because that means the person who told him to get him signed is still here. God help us all.

dfs
04-29-2008, 09:48 AM
I agree. If Wayne got $2mill out of Oakland in the Denorfia deal great, but what does that have to do with Cormier?

I'm rather shocked that McCoy and company are reporting this at face value as if it's a GOOD thing.

Yeah, we traded a right handed centerfielder for two million and a couple of "prospects" in order to pay off a crummy contract that should never have seen ink. In doing that we opened the door to bringing in Cory Patterson for three million dollars. Yippee!

HUH? Where is the good in this?

You don't have to fall for the deno love in order to think this is ...well, terrible. At the worst Deno would be a good glove in the outfield who isn't a waste of at bats from the rights side. Could the reds use a player liike that for the league minimum? Yes. Yes, we could.

I don't want them to spit on the grave of Krivsky or anything, but they might point out that giving away assets for cash AND then turning around and signing an older free agent to fill the same role for more money isn't forward motion for the franchise.

I DO think Krivsky did some good things, but the blind spot here as almost as big as the one's possesed by Leatherpants and DanO.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 09:50 AM
Seriously, when a GM makes a bad signing and its less than 6 million dollars a year who cares? When you get stuck with Mike Hampton, Barry Zito, Matt Morris type contracts I can deal with some complaints, but come on... he made some mistakes, but what was the most expensive contract he had to deal with 4 million bucks or something trivial like that?

If you add up the total dollars from all of Wayne's bad contracts/extensions, it's very significant. I will not repeat the math here, as this has been done many times.

Matt Morris was a dumb deal, but that was "only" 10 million.
Stanton + Freel + Castro + AGon is more than 10 million, this year, plus some of those guys will still get paid next year.

Spring~Fields
04-29-2008, 09:53 AM
On the other hand, this...

...sends shivers down my spine, because that means the person who told him to get him signed is still here. God help us all.

I wonder who would have been so anxious, motivated, driven to have Patterson with the Reds?

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 09:57 AM
...sends shivers down my spine, because that means the person who told him to get him [Patterson] signed is still here. God help us all.

But the person who signed Patterson is gone. Wayne wanted Patterson.
Maybe Dusty lobbied Wayne, but in the end, it's Wayne's call.
It's not as if Cast got all excited when Patterson was a free agent and forced him upon this club. This isn't a case of where Steinbrenner wanted Sheffield over Vlad.

Cast has never told Wayne to get a specific player. He just gave him the money to win. I have a strong suspicion that maybe the Reds were close to their budget, but Wayne came to Cast and asked for Patterson and made the case why Patterson was a good sign. Then Cast said "Do what it takes".
How does that absolve Wayne of responsiblity?

Cast fired Wayne is as classy matter as possible under the circumstances. He did not blast Wayne, although I'm sure he had plenty of ammo. It's very classless of Wayne to try to blame Cast or Dusty for Patterson in an attempt to rationalize yet another mistake.

Poor Wayne, he insisted on making every decision without consulting people, yet nothing is his fault. :lol:

princeton
04-29-2008, 09:58 AM
I'm rather shocked that McCoy and company are reporting this at face value as if it's a GOOD thing..

getting $2mill and an arm for a 60 day DL journeyman who will draw a major league salary and burn 1+ of his pre-arbitration years on the DL is a good thing.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 10:00 AM
Yeah, we traded a right handed centerfielder for two million and a couple of "prospects" in order to pay off a crummy contract that should never have seen ink. In doing that we opened the door to bringing in Cory Patterson for three million dollars. Yippee!

HUH? Where is the good in this?


That's a great point.. So by Wayne logic, he's still down.




I DO think Krivsky did some good things, but the blind spot here as almost as big as the one's possesed by Leatherpants and DanO.

Yes, Wayne had some clear weaknesses which many on this board fail to rationalize. We are still the laughing stocks of the central. I appreciate the 4 very good moves Wayne made, but he made many more very bad ones that continue to sink us.

RedEye
04-29-2008, 10:11 AM
Dear Hal,

The man's name is Frank THOMAS.

Best,

RedEye

Spring~Fields
04-29-2008, 10:13 AM
But the person who signed Patterson is gone. Wayne wanted Patterson.
Maybe Dusty lobbied Wayne, but in the end, it's Wayne's call.

How do you interpret the quote here?

“I was told to get him signed,"



Cast has never told Wayne to get a specific player.

How do you know that? Insider information? Wasn't Castellini saying last year or so that he wanted Dunn back etc. ?


Poor Wayne, he insisted on making every decision without consulting people, yet nothing is his fault. :lol:

Similiar to you implying that everything was Waynes fault ? :D

Spring~Fields
04-29-2008, 10:17 AM
That's a great point..

Yes, Wayne had some clear weaknesses which many on this board fail to rationalize.

Oh now I see, rationalizing and generalizing makes it so regarding Wayne? So that is what we are doing here, rationalizing and generalizing. ;)

Rationalize:
1. offer reasonable explanation for something: to attempt to justify behavior normally considered irrational or unacceptable by offering an apparently reasonable explanation
2. make something rational: to make something rational, logical, or consistent
3. interpret something rationally: to interpret something from a rational or logical perspective

Generalize:
1. make sweeping statement: to state a supposed general truth about something on the basis of limited or incomplete evidence
6. logic make inference: to infer a general conclusion from particulars or a universal statement from an instance

TRF
04-29-2008, 10:42 AM
If you add up the total dollars from all of Wayne's bad contracts/extensions, it's very significant. I will not repeat the math here, as this has been done many times.

Matt Morris was a dumb deal, but that was "only" 10 million.
Stanton + Freel + Castro + AGon is more than 10 million, this year, plus some of those guys will still get paid next year.

Stanton and Castro are gone. AGon is hurt, but is signed to a very reasonable contract. Freel is hitting .292 right now, and over the last week he's at .353 with a .421 OBP. He's building tremendous value, showing that he's healthy again, and that his versatility and OBP skills are back to where they were in 2004 - 2006. Someone will make an offer for Freel, because he is in fact a very good leadoff hitter.

But pointing out his bad contracts without looking at his good ones is barely half the story. He signed Dunn and Harang to very good extensions, Harang's was WAY below market value. Arroyo's was a bit high, Phillips is locked up long term. Volquez is under the Reds control for what, 5 more years? He didn't trade Cueto or Bailey for Joe stinking Blanton, when every media idiot in Cincinnati was clamoring for him to do so. He didn't trade Bruce for Bedard. But he added some very good pitching in Volquez, and Affeldt has been great in the pen.

The man wasn't perfect, and his legacy (if two years can warrant a legacy) with the Reds will be forever tied to "The Trade", but right now, long term, he just might have won that trade. Think JimBo would like to have Daryl Thompson right now? I forgive him for "The Trade" for two reasons: 1. New GM's, especially rookie GM's are going to make mistakes. 2. Daryl Thompson looks like he's a STUD!

Here is the thing though. The Reds have won 3 straight right now. None of those wins have a damn thing to do with WJ, and everything to do with how WK constructed this club.

princeton
04-29-2008, 10:42 AM
saw Redread posting over on the Orioles board a couple of days ago:

"Peter Angelos is doing a GOOD job as Orioles owner! He has just had four GMs with clear faults! Nobody talks about this!"

edabbs44
04-29-2008, 10:52 AM
Wayne wanted Baker.

Baker wanted Patterson.

Guilty by association.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 11:12 AM
How do you interpret the quote here?

“I was told to get him signed,"

We'll never know for sure, but someone (Dusty or Wayne) wanted Patterson.
If it was Dusty and Wayne disagreed, then Wayne should've come up with a better option. The truth is, after Hamilton was traded, there was a huge hole in CF.

So either Wayne planned to get Patterson to fill CF, or he planned on ignoring the hole in CF. The latter is actually worse, IMO.

In any event, Cast apparently heard the pros and cons of Patterson and decided money was no object based on the discussion. If Wayne didn't want Patterson, he should've picked up someone better.

But the reality was that there was no one better than Patterson available, unless the Reds were willing to trade prospects, and Wayne wasn't going to do that.

No one FORCED Wayne to do anything. That is clear.

In any event, I don't consider Patterson to be one of Wayne colossal blunders. He has been useful this year, even if he isn't a star player.







How do you know that? Insider information? Wasn't Castellini saying last year or so that he wanted Dunn back etc. ?


I made it clear that I was just guessing, and that maybe Wayne was just twisting words to make himself look better. Just look at all his other rationalizations for bad moves. The man is scared to death of the legacy he is leaving behind in Cincy. Many people, after they are fired, go to great lengths to explain to their friends how it was without reason. It's human nature. It's hard to admit to ourselves that just maybe the boss was right and we weren't getting the job done.





Similiar to you implying that everything was Waynes fault ? :D

Yes, every player move is Wayne's fault. I mean, let's be serious here. Do you really think Cast is scouring the free agents and forcing Wayne to sign Patterson? I doubt that. Maybe Baker lobbied for Patterson. I can believe that. Still, it's ultimately Wayne's call. If he wasn't entering spring training without a CF, Dusty probably wouldn't have lobbied for Patterson.

Spring~Fields
04-29-2008, 11:13 AM
Wayne wanted Baker.

Baker wanted Patterson.

Guilty by association.

I like that.

If that is true/then
Castellini wanted Wayne, "wanted his own man", Castellini was quoted as saying when he fired O'brien so it follows.

It follows that
Castellini wanted Krivsky
Wayne wanted Baker
Baker wanted Patterson
guilt by association.

IF/Then
If Castellini were to ever blast Krivsky publically, then Castellini would be blasting himself because Castellini made the choice, Castellini made the decision that brought the Krivsky choices and decisions here and Castellini signed off on some of those. Let's hope that he gets it right from here on out. As it stands Castellini is guilty.

IslandRed
04-29-2008, 11:18 AM
Really, if he can't acknowledge that AGon, Freel extension, Arroyo extension, Cormier, etc are mistakes, then I'm even more happy that he got fired. Nothing worse than a leader that refuses to admit his mistakes. That's the type of person that continues to make more mistakes, because he refuses to learn.

Just to be clear... you expect him to publicly categorize those contracts as mistakes when they're still playing for the Reds?

princeton
04-29-2008, 11:18 AM
Do you really think Cast is scouring the free agents and forcing Wayne to sign Patterson?.

it's starting to look that way. Frankly, it fits with the fact that WK wanted to keep some talks private (i.e., away from the ears of those close to Cast such as Johnny Almaraz, whom Cast admitted to being tight with, or Walt Jocketty).

Were WK to brainstorm, which requires both good and bad ideas, and were one of the Cast guys to relay those to Cast, then suddenly you have the owner yammering for a certain player that the GM really never wanted to pursue much in the first place. I figure that this has been going on since Cast arrived.

isn't this RFS62's sig: just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get me?

mbgrayson
04-29-2008, 11:28 AM
It seems to me that the most likely implication of WK stating that he was "told" to get Corey Patterson is that Baker wanted him, asked WK, was told 'no', and then Baker went over WK's head to Bob Castellini, who then told WK to sign him.

We know Baker wanted Patterson, and WK implies he did not. I will credit WK for a good call on this one, until we here more from the other people involved.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 11:31 AM
getting $2mill and an arm for a 60 day DL journeyman who will draw a major league salary and burn 1+ of his pre-arbitration years on the DL is a good thing.

And Wayne returned the favor to the A's by taking on Sarloos and his salary (approx 1.5 million).

Wayne also paid a pretty heavy price for 14 IP from Guarado in 2006. I know the M's were paying a good chunk of Gauarado's salary (never found the exact breakdown).

Wayne did some good things, managing money wasn't one of them though.
This is an outlier more than the rule. I agree it was a decent trade, but it still doesn't make up for the Cormier debacle.

In addition to the money paid to Cormier, he made a bad bullpen worse. I'm more concerned about that than the money flushed down the toilet.

bucksfan2
04-29-2008, 11:35 AM
And Wayne returned the favor to the A's by taking on Sarloos and his salary (approx 1.5 million).

Wayne also paid a pretty heavy price for 14 IP from Guarado in 2006. I know the M's were paying a good chunk of Gauarado's salary (never found the exact breakdown).

Wayne did some good things, managing money wasn't one of them though.
This is an outlier more than the rule. I agree it was a decent trade, but it still doesn't make up for the Cormier debacle.

In addition to the money paid to Cormier, he made a bad bullpen worse. I'm more concerned about that than the money flushed down the toilet.

Find me another team that doesn't have dead money on its books.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 11:35 AM
But pointing out his bad contracts without looking at his good ones is barely half the story. The man wasn't perfect, and his legacy (if two years can warrant a legacy) with the Reds will be forever tied to "The Trade", but right now, long term, he just might have won that trade. Think JimBo would like to have Daryl Thompson right now? I forgive him for "The Trade" for two reasons: 1. New GM's, especially rookie GM's are going to make mistakes. 2. Daryl Thompson looks like he's a STUD!

Yep, Wayne did some good things. No doubt about it. I'm not denying that. Too bad his bad moves outweighed the good ones.

AGon is a disaster. He had a bad year last season and may not play again. That's a big waste of money.





Here is the thing though. The Reds have won 3 straight right now. None of those wins have a damn thing to do with WJ, and everything to do with how WK constructed this club.

I agree with this. This is still Wayne's club. But taking 2 out of 3 from the Giants isn't exactly earthshattering, especially since we got Zito in one game.

If the Reds end up finishing over .500 without significant moves by Walt, then I will admit that I underestimated Wayne and this club is better than I thought.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 11:35 AM
saw Redread posting over on the Orioles board a couple of days ago:

"Peter Angelos is doing a GOOD job as Orioles owner! He has just had four GMs with clear faults! Nobody talks about this!"


Not taking the bait buddy.. :)

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 11:37 AM
IF/Then
If Castellini were to ever blast Krivsky publically, then Castellini would be blasting himself because Castellini made the choice, Castellini made the decision that brought the Krivsky choices and decisions here and Castellini signed off on some of those. Let's hope that he gets it right from here on out. As it stands Castellini is guilty.

Yep, and Cast is accepting responsiblity for his mistakes by firing Wayne.
What do you expect him to do, sell the team because he hired the wrong GM?

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 11:40 AM
Just to be clear... you expect him to publicly categorize those contracts as mistakes when they're still playing for the Reds?


No, I don't want him to publicly acknowledge it. But I want him to acknowledge it to himself. He told one reporter that the only mistake he made was Stanton. He's the underperforming employee that refuses to admit it. It's proof that in Wayne's eyes, he made no mistakes. That's not the guy I want to continue to have in power. It also makes me think that Wayne will never be a successful GM. If he gets another chance, he will continue to make the same mistakes, because he can't acknowledge them.

He still blames Bowden for the trade. That was the whole point of filing that thing with Bud, to rationalize away his mistake.

Like I said, if Wayne publicly admited that he made several mistakes on his way out (he wouldn't have to get specific and name names), then I'd have a lot more respect for him.

But instead, Wayne feels the need to go to every writer that will listen and make the case that Stanton was his only mistake.. :lol:

Falls City Beer
04-29-2008, 11:45 AM
Why do people want to ascribe "blame" when it comes to Patterson's acquisition?

I love it. If Wayne acquired him, then that improves Wayne in my eyes.

edabbs44
04-29-2008, 11:48 AM
Find me another team that doesn't have dead money on its books.

Find me another team who has a similar payroll to the Reds, similar dead money and has been successful.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 11:48 AM
it's starting to look that way. Frankly, it fits with the fact that WK wanted to keep some talks private (i.e., away from the ears of those close to Cast such as Johnny Almaraz, whom Cast admitted to being tight with, or Walt Jocketty).


It's starting to look that way to you, because that's the way you want it to look. Just like Wayne, you are looking for excuses to explain Wayne's mistakes away. Do you seriously believe it was a good idea to alienate Almarez and Jocketty "for the good of the club".. The whole premise is flawed because apparently in your eyes, Cast forced Wayne to sign Patterson.
Also, how come Wayne's statement of "I was told to sign Patterson" is taken as gospel, particularly after the whole article was just a list of excuses from Wayne.





Were WK to brainstorm, which requires both good and bad ideas, and were one of the Cast guys to relay those to Cast, then suddenly you have the owner yammering for a certain player that the GM really never wanted to pursue much in the first place. I figure that this has been going on since Cast arrived.

isn't this RFS62's sig: just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean people aren't out to get me?

Ok.. so now Cast has moles that are listening to Wayne's brainstorming session and lobbying for ideas that Wayne and his team decided are bad?
Why? Is that how Castro got signed too? Wayne thought it was a bad idea, but someone convinced Cast to do it? :lol:
What about Cordero? Maybe Wayne didn't want to make that move but Cast forced him to.. How come we haven't heard any accusations like that? Is it perhaps because that's considered a good move, so Wayne did it?

How about a simplier approach? A GM is responsible for all moves, good and bad, that happen under his watch. If Cast wants Patterson, it's Wayne's job to convince him someone better is out there and get that guy.

I find it funny that Patterson is used as evidence, because I consider him one of Wayne's better pickups. When Patterson was carrying the team in the first week, few seemed to mind that he was on the team. In fact, most people on this board think Patterson is a fine addition, as long as he doesn't lead off.
It's not Patterson's (or Wayne's) fault that Patterson leads off.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 11:50 AM
Find me another team that doesn't have dead money on its books.

Most of Wayne's failures were extending the wrong people and signing the wrong free agents. If he didn't do that, he still has his jobs.

And yes, I could name other GMs that added far less dead weight and wasted cash than Wayne did.

princeton
04-29-2008, 11:51 AM
It's starting to look that way to you, because that's the way you want it to look.

here I am connecting the dots for you, and you're still eating paste ;)

BuckeyeRedleg
04-29-2008, 11:54 AM
In fact, most people on this board think Patterson is a fine addition, as long as he doesn't lead off.
It's not Patterson's (or Wayne's) fault that Patterson leads off.


Nope. It's just the fault of the expensive and ignorant manager that he approved they go after.

pedro
04-29-2008, 11:57 AM
I hate what this boards become.

bucksfan2
04-29-2008, 11:59 AM
Most of Wayne's failures were extending the wrong people and signing the wrong free agents. If he didn't do that, he still has his jobs.

And yes, I could name other GMs that added far less dead weight and wasted cash than Wayne did.

Please enlighten me about thos other GM's.

It seems like every move Wayne made you turn it around and spin it as a negative. I liked the Gonzo deal. I thought he got a quality defensive SS on the cheap compared to the other FA contracts SS's have signed. The reds had no where to go within the organization so he went outside. I am sure if Wayne had a crystal ball to look into and saw that Gonzo would have a very very sick child in year one of the contract and knee problems in year two he may have done something else.

TRF
04-29-2008, 12:06 PM
Yes, every player move is Wayne's fault. I mean, let's be serious here. Do you really think Cast is scouring the free agents and forcing Wayne to sign Patterson? I doubt that. Maybe Baker lobbied for Patterson. I can believe that. Still, it's ultimately Wayne's call. If he wasn't entering spring training without a CF, Dusty probably wouldn't have lobbied for Patterson.

Fault is the wrong word. very much the wrong word. Responsibility is the right one, and it's a word WK used a lot. But to use your word, It's Wayne's fault that the Reds have BP, Volquez, Arroyo, Hatteburg, And what looks to be a top 10 prospect in Thompson. It's Waynes fault that he kept Cueto instead of dealing him and others for Haren. It's Waynes fault he kept Bruce instead of dealing for Bedard (who has one trip to the DL under his belt for this season)


Yep, Wayne did some good things. No doubt about it. I'm not denying that. Too bad his bad moves outweighed the good ones.

AGon is a disaster. He had a bad year last season and may not play again. That's a big waste of money.

And there was absolutely no way to predict his injury, and his son's illness wasn't on the radar at the time either. He was a defensive upgrade for a team that sorely needed one.



I agree with this. This is still Wayne's club. But taking 2 out of 3 from the Giants isn't exactly earthshattering, especially since we got Zito in one game.

If the Reds end up finishing over .500 without significant moves by Walt, then I will admit that I underestimated Wayne and this club is better than I thought.

What significant move can Jocketty make? Dunn has a full no-trade till June. KGJ has 10/5 rights, and if the team's hitting slump is over, and I think it is, then this team has already righted itself. The only real move left is when to bring up Bruce, and does Bailey need to come up in the #5 spot in the rotation. Nothing wrong with Bruce getting the Braun treatment. Bailey needs to show he's ready, and it appears he's getting close.

Name another GM in baseball right now that remade his club in the first two years the way Krivsky did. You can't, cuz there isn't one. Factor in that he was a rookie GM, and it is even more impressive. Looking at what he accomplished in the macro has really made me do a 180 on my opinion of him.

jojo
04-29-2008, 12:09 PM
Why do people want to ascribe "blame" when it comes to Patterson's acquisition?

I love it. If Wayne acquired him, then that improves Wayne in my eyes.

I think Patterson was a pretty reasonable gamble. It's not Krivsky's fault that Patterson is leading off......

Highlifeman21
04-29-2008, 12:10 PM
I'm lost on this one. I don't understand Oakland including 2M in the Deno as paying for Cormier?

I guess Billy Beane really wanted him and values Deno.

Moreso than we did, anyway.

TRF
04-29-2008, 12:14 PM
I hate what this boards become.

We do tend to eat our own don't we.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 12:15 PM
Why do people want to ascribe "blame" when it comes to Patterson's acquisition?

I love it. If Wayne acquired him, then that improves Wayne in my eyes.


I agree with you. I think Patterson was a good Wayne move. I feel as though I am defending Wayne.

Here's what I don't understand:

Patterson: under 30, athletic, plus defender, fast, OBP challenged, good power, 1 year at 3 million.. this is bad

AGon: over 30, declining, bad defender, not athletic, no speed, OBP challenged, good power, 3 years at about 8-9 million (I forget). And this contract is ok???

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 12:16 PM
here I am connecting the dots for you, and you're still eating paste ;)

Wow, and I thought I was into conspiracy theories :)

Even if Patterson was forced on Wayne, so what? It was a good move.

What other bad moves was Wayne forced to make? Did Cast make him sign Freel, AGon, Stanton?

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 12:21 PM
Please enlighten me about thos other GM's.

It seems like every move Wayne made you turn it around and spin it as a negative. I liked the Gonzo deal. I thought he got a quality defensive SS on the cheap compared to the other FA contracts SS's have signed. The reds had no where to go within the organization so he went outside. I am sure if Wayne had a crystal ball to look into and saw that Gonzo would have a very very sick child in year one of the contract and knee problems in year two he may have done something else.


Gonzo was bad because they overpaid for a mediocre commodity, and commited 3 years to him. Patterson was a risk, but a good risk, since it was only a 1 year deal and the Reds had no CF. If Wayne only signed Gonzo as a one year stopgap, I would've been fine with that, even though he's still not as good of a player as Patterson is. And Gonzo is not a good defensive SS.
Wayne himself found two better options. Both Keppinger and Harris were better choices than Gonzo.

The Pirates (even with Morris), A's, Indians, Astros, Brewers, and Cardinals all have less dead weight and wasted cash on their roster than the Reds. That's just off the top of my head. I can't think of any mid market or small market team that has more wasted cash/dead weight than the Reds.

The bigger point, as someone else made is that even if there's another team that made poorer financial decisions than the Reds, it doesn't excuse what Wayne did.

REDREAD
04-29-2008, 12:29 PM
Fault is the wrong word. very much the wrong word. Responsibility is the right one, and it's a word WK used a lot. But to use your word, It's Wayne's fault that the Reds have BP, Volquez, Arroyo, Hatteburg, And what looks to be a top 10 prospect in Thompson. It's Waynes fault that he kept Cueto instead of dealing him and others for Haren. It's Waynes fault he kept Bruce instead of dealing for Bedard (who has one trip to the DL under his belt for this season)

Hat isn't a good move at this point. Wayne kept him a season too long (a common theme). Likewise with Arroyo. Good trade, bad idea to extend him.
I hope Phillips doesn't go sour on us. I don't think he will.

I've consistently said Wayne made some good moves, but his bad ones outwieghed the good.






And there was absolutely no way to predict his injury, and his son's illness wasn't on the radar at the time either. He was a defensive upgrade for a team that sorely needed one.


It was easily to see that Gonzo had a good chance of declining. He had already started to decline in Boston, that's why he was let go. And again, why give Gonzo three years? Wayne was very poor at risk managment.
I would've been ok with one year for Gonzo.





What significant move can Jocketty make? Dunn has a full no-trade till June.


A no trade clause that Wayne gave him.



KGJ has 10/5 rights, and if the team's hitting slump is over, and I think it is, then this team has already righted itself.


Jr is Jr, he's far from the biggest problem on this team. I don't mind him here this year.





The only real move left is when to bring up Bruce, and does Bailey need to come up in the #5 spot in the rotation. Nothing wrong with Bruce getting the Braun treatment. Bailey needs to show he's ready, and it appears he's getting close.


Agreed, no reason to call those two up now. The Reds shouldn't.




Name another GM in baseball right now that remade his club in the first two years the way Krivsky did. You can't, cuz there isn't one. Factor in that he was a rookie GM, and it is even more impressive. Looking at what he accomplished in the macro has really made me do a 180 on my opinion of him.

Here's the rub. I don't think Wayne made progress. The offense and defense is a mess. The bullpen is improved this year (finally) but still could use some help. There's a lot more work to be done.
Wayne knew when he arrived that Jr and Dunn might be gone after this season and wasn't particularly proactive about addressing the problem.

Very few GMs arrive in an ideal situation, but Wayne left just as big of a mess as he inherited, perhaps worse, depending on if Arroyo can rebound or not.
Wayne was given a ton of money to spend, but the results didn't show up in the W-L column. That's what got him fired.

Johnny Footstool
04-29-2008, 12:37 PM
I agree with you. I think Patterson was a good Wayne move. I feel as though I am defending Wayne.

Here's what I don't understand:

Patterson: under 30, athletic, plus defender, fast, OBP challenged, good power, 1 year at 3 million.. this is bad

AGon: over 30, declining, bad defender, not athletic, no speed, OBP challenged, good power, 3 years at about 8-9 million (I forget). And this contract is ok???

Excellent point.

Signing Patterson for $3 million was an excellent move, IMO. He's got lots of talent defensively, and his K/AB trends over the past few years say he's maturing as a hitter. Give him more than 80 ABs to prove himself.

You have to offer a guy like Patterson a decent chunk of cash to get him to join the team right away. If you offer him $1 million plus incentives, he'll think about it, and his agent will take that offer to other clubs and give them a chance to beat it. $3 million is a small price to pay to fill a gaping, short-term hole.

Joseph
04-29-2008, 12:44 PM
We're splitting hairs here folks. The Reds are better now than when Wayne got them a few years ago.

Johnny Footstool
04-29-2008, 12:45 PM
We're splitting hairs here folks. The Reds are better now than when Wayne got them a few years ago.

Agreed, and I was one of Krivsky's biggest detractors a couple of years ago.

OnBaseMachine
04-29-2008, 12:46 PM
Because it doesn't make sense :)
It's just Wayne's way of "clearing the ledger" of his mistakes. This is twice he's tried to make excuses about Cormier and how that shouldn't count against him.

Really, I'd have a lot more respect for Wayne if on the way out he admited he made some mistakes along with the good moves. No need to get specific.
Instead, Wayne has gotten really defensive. This rationalization that Stanton was the only bad move he's made is blatantly absurd. Really, if he can't acknowledge that AGon, Freel extension, Arroyo extension, Cormier, etc are mistakes, then I'm even more happy that he got fired. Nothing worse than a leader that refuses to admit his mistakes. That's the type of person that continues to make more mistakes, because he refuses to learn.

Well, except Wayne did admit he made some mistakes. Did you not read the part where he said the Stanton and Castro contracts were on him?

Ltlabner
04-29-2008, 12:51 PM
Well, except Wayne did admit he made some mistakes. Did you not read the part where he said the Stanton and Castro contracts were on him?

Well, and some folks are assuming that the story printed is the entire conversation with Wayne. It's likely not. Shocking news, but reporters rarely post the transcript of the entire conversation.

So it's a possibility that Wayne mention other mistakes but that didn't make the story. And even if he didn't, it takes a pretty big leap to get from one interview to "desperatley" protecting ones legacy or being defensive about everything.

But don't let that stop people from weaving together a fantastical story to fit their adgendas.

SMcGavin
04-29-2008, 12:53 PM
Come on. Bad deal, yes. Monstrosity? Not even close. Folks need to see the big picture here -- this kind of cherrypicking relatively minor mistakes is distortion.

Completely agree.


We're splitting hairs here folks. The Reds are better now than when Wayne got them a few years ago.

Absolutely. I am not even sure anyone would argue against this being true... which makes it so strange to read threads like this.

MartyFan
04-29-2008, 12:59 PM
When this team contends this year for the division and competes to go to the WS next year, we all need to remember that it was Special K who got the ball rolling to bring back some respectability to this franchise. Maybe he is not the greatest communicator, he probably isn't but after the loose lips of Pants, and the huge amount of NOTHING that came from DanO...I still like Krivsky.

Walt, on behalf of Special K...You're welcome.

SMcGavin
04-29-2008, 12:59 PM
I think Patterson was a pretty reasonable gamble. It's not Krivsky's fault that Patterson is leading off......

Yeah. Patterson has a .756 OPS while playing good defense in CF. For $3M with no long-term commitment I'll take it.

Spring~Fields
04-29-2008, 01:00 PM
Yep, and Cast is accepting responsiblity for his mistakes by firing Wayne.
No, no.

Castellini is shirking responsibility and laying the blame at Krivsky's feet while making sure that Krivsky suffers the consequences, by firing Krivsky. I expect Castellini to accept responsibilty for his choices and decisions to date that brought another poor product to the field of entertainment and play. Castellini used Krivsky as a scape goat.


What do you expect him to do, sell the team because he hired the wrong GM?

Sure why not? Not sell his shares in the team but,
Good for the goose, good for the gander, step aside Castellini and be consistent in your reasoning and logic. Mr. Castellini, if your reasoning and logic applies to Krivsky, then it applies to you also.

You have other investors under you Bob, step aside with the same reasoning that you used on Krivsky.

puca
04-29-2008, 01:02 PM
Would you trade the current Reds organization for the one Krivsky took over? I wouldn't.

There is more talent at the major league level and way more talent in the upper minor leagues than 2 1/2 years ago. Whether Krivsky deserves the lion share of credit for that is debatable. Whether the organization is in better shape is really not.

Spring~Fields
04-29-2008, 01:08 PM
We'll never know for sure, but someone (Dusty or Wayne) wanted Patterson.

I think that we are safe to speculate that Baker wanted Patterson.
In reality we see Patterson, Hairston, and Bako with the club, we don't have to guess in that case.

Wouldn't be much of a reach to think that it was Baker that wanted all three of the ex-Cubs. Again I refer to the time that Baker was hired, where I read that it was a part of Baker's contract the he have input on the players for suggesting that it was Baker who wanted those three and had some grounds for requesting them in his contract if the reports were accurate upon his hiring.

TRF
04-29-2008, 01:22 PM
Here's the rub. I don't think Wayne made progress. The offense and defense is a mess. The bullpen is improved this year (finally) but still could use some help. There's a lot more work to be done.
Wayne knew when he arrived that Jr and Dunn might be gone after this season and wasn't particularly proactive about addressing the problem.
The defense is a mess, but Patterson is playing GG caliber D in CF, BP the same at 2B, SS is steady if not spectacular, Votto has been very, very good, especially considering he's a rookie. OK, if you say so.

The offense is far from a mess, in fact, I think it's the best balanced offense since Casey's 2004 Red's. Guys are getting on base, hitting for average, and power. Dunn and Jr. are off to slow starts, but for the most part, this team was in a 3 week funk not indicative of what their final stats will show. In fact I see above average offensive performance at all 4 infield spots, Dunn will hit his usual 40 HR's, Jr. 30.

And there is plenty of time to deal with Dunn. nothin had to be done before June. If WK thought it was in the Reds best interests to flip him at the deadline, he was in position to do so. If not and Dunn was still scuffling a bit, he was in position to get him a LTC at below market value. Look to the Harang contract.


Very few GMs arrive in an ideal situation, but Wayne left just as big of a mess as he inherited, perhaps worse, depending on if Arroyo can rebound or not.
Wayne was given a ton of money to spend, but the results didn't show up in the W-L column. That's what got him fired.

The situation was ideal in that there were a few blue chip prospects in the system, and a few unknowns. All Krivsky did was stabilize the 25 man roster, add some key position players and pitchers and change the culture of the entire system. Krivsky made the Reds players on the international market. Oh and his policies and people helped make the Reds ML system one of the top 5 in all of baseball.


Hell yes he left it in better shape than he got it.

And the only reason he was fired was because BCast wanted to give his friend the job. And everyone on this board, and around baseball in general knows it.

Patrick Bateman
04-29-2008, 01:23 PM
It's not like he stole $2MM from Oakland. Obviously the player return wasn't enough for Denorfia, so Oakland had to kick in cash.

If WK didn't need to cover up the Cormier disaster, there may have been another player thrown in.

I already made that exact point like 3 times in this thread. Your confusing my stance.

Spring~Fields
04-29-2008, 01:28 PM
He told one reporter that the only mistake he made was Stanton.

He's the underperforming employee that refuses to admit it.

It's proof that in Wayne's eyes, he made no mistakes.

he will continue to make the same mistakes, because he can't acknowledge them.

HUH :confused:

Let me cherry pick selectively your comments for a minute.

1. First you say he admitted a mistake in Stanton.
2. Then you say that he refuses to admit.
3. Then you say "proof" that in Waynes eyes, he made no mistakes, even though he admitted that he did with Stanton
4. Then you say, because he can't acknowledge them, when in fact he did admit that he made a mistake with Stanton.



Like I said, if Wayne publicly admited that he made several mistakes on his way out (he wouldn't have to get specific and name names), then I'd have a lot more respect for him.

Then surely you and I could have more respect for both Castellini and Krivsky if they had admitted that they "had made several mistakes," primarily Castellini as the head of the organization.


He still blames Bowden for the trade. That was the whole point of filing that thing with Bud, to rationalize away his mistake.

If
Castellini did the same thing, and why don't you take issue with Castellini?

Then
Castellini must have blamed Krivsky for the team not winning, so with the firing of Krivsky, Castellini is trying to rationalize away his mistakes by putting the blame entirely on the shoulders of Krivsky and firing him.


But instead, Wayne feels the need to go to every writer that will listen and make the case that Stanton was his only mistake

At least Krivsky had the courage to try to step forward and explain himself, Castellini is still hiding behind title, power and priviledge and protocol. Castellini has the facts, let him step forward and own responsibility.

Heath
04-29-2008, 01:37 PM
Seven pages of one topic on one man's demise is excessive. I think people have made their cases either in this thread or in previous posts and numerous threads. It's clear where most parties lie in regards to philosophy.

This thread is closed. Let GM Wayne RIP.

Thanks.