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View Full Version : What has been missed in the discussion about Dunn



capndees
04-29-2008, 11:32 AM
Is that he has greatly reduced his strikeouts this season. He's not even in the Top 10 in the NL, and he's 16(!) behind the leader, Ryan Howard.

And the natural result of that is: a .200 batting average and 3 homeruns. If you don't like the new "and improved" Adam Dunn, then stop complaining about the strikeouts!!

podgejeff_
04-29-2008, 11:46 AM
He's also currently second in all of the majors in walks, 4 behind someone everybody's pitching around, Pujols.

His OBP is currently a little under 400 and 10 points higher than his career totals. The only thing that's really missing here is his power, his SLG is at 351 right now.

BLEEDS
04-29-2008, 12:33 PM
He ain't getting anything good to swing at. Unfortunately I don't think Dusty is doing him any favors by telling him to be more aggresssive. He's seeing LESS pitches as a result, and is putting balls into play earlier, instead of waiting for HIS pitch.

He's putting the PITCHERS pitches into play, instead of putting HIS pitches in the seats.

JMO.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BurgervilleBuck
04-29-2008, 12:45 PM
He still runs like he has a pachyderm on his back.

Natty Redlocks
04-29-2008, 01:30 PM
He still runs like he has a pachyderm on his back.

...and he's still a better option to lead off than "the speedy Patterson".

mlbfan30
04-29-2008, 01:56 PM
He ain't getting anything good to swing at. Unfortunately I don't think Dusty is doing him any favors by telling him to be more aggresssive. He's seeing LESS pitches as a result, and is putting balls into play earlier, instead of waiting for HIS pitch.

He's putting the PITCHERS pitches into play, instead of putting HIS pitches in the seats.

JMO.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I agree with this 100%

Bakers hitting approach is really hindering the players for the long term.
Votto has 1 BB after having solid OBP numbers in the minors
Hatty has complained about Baker telling him to swing at the 1st pitch
BP is even more of a hacker, as if that was possible
Guys like Patterson continue go up with no OBP skills
Even Kepp has decreases his BB rate

Add this all up, with a very inefficient lineup and do you really have to wonder why the teams offense has been bad?

Sure... maybe they strike out less as a whole, but that doesn't matter if they can't get on base.

I'm most worried about Votto since he's so young in development. You don't take a sucessful player and tell him to try something totally different. You just can't do that. Once Votto gets on a cold streak, which will happen, he'll have no value due to zero OBP skills that he previous had.

tommycash
04-29-2008, 03:50 PM
Is that he has greatly reduced his strikeouts this season. He's not even in the Top 10 in the NL, and he's 16(!) behind the leader, Ryan Howard.

And the natural result of that is: a .200 batting average and 3 homeruns. If you don't like the new "and improved" Adam Dunn, then stop complaining about the strikeouts!!

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/league_leaders.jsp?statType=1&timeFrame=1&sortByStat=BB&baseballScope=NL&timeSubFrame=2008

Dunn is 4-5 strikeouts away from being in the top 5 in the NL. I hardly think that says he is reducing his strikeout numbers. Also, Dunn has almost 20 less at-bats than the top 2 leaders in strikeouts in the NL. Given time, he might catch up. His walks are still among the league leaders. I guess his stats say that he is having a bad spring. I wouldn't say it has to do with him striking out less. He and Griffey are both having bad starts, but Dunn is having a really bad start.

BLEEDS
04-29-2008, 04:06 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/league_leaders.jsp?statType=1&timeFrame=1&sortByStat=BB&baseballScope=NL&timeSubFrame=2008

Dunn is 4-5 strikeouts away from being in the top 5 in the NL. I hardly think that says he is reducing his strikeout numbers. Also, Dunn has almost 20 less at-bats than the top 2 leaders in strikeouts in the NL. Given time, he might catch up. His walks are still among the league leaders. I guess his stats say that he is having a bad spring. I wouldn't say it has to do with him striking out less. He and Griffey are both having bad starts, but Dunn is having a really bad start.

So, I'm guessing you think he's played in 5 less games, huh? Why don't you add back in the WALKS he's taken, and see how many AB's he has...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Rounding Third
04-29-2008, 04:22 PM
I agree with this 100%

Bakers hitting approach is really hindering the players for the long term.
Votto has 1 BB after having solid OBP numbers in the minors
Hatty has complained about Baker telling him to swing at the 1st pitch
BP is even more of a hacker, as if that was possible
Guys like Patterson continue go up with no OBP skills
Even Kepp has decreases his BB rate



Add on top of all of that he is messing with some of the players emotions. Both Freel and Hatteberg are upset. Hopper has to be upset as well. We haven't seen Javy in awhile, I'm sure he is thrilled to be on the team.

He has turned them into a bunch of upset players acting out of character. At least it seems Dunn is ignoring him, hopefully the others will as well.

BLEEDS
04-29-2008, 04:53 PM
I'd be upset if I was Freel too, and having to watch Corey Patterson flub it up at the top of the lineup against those righties. At least he is doing if over competitiveness and not any other angles. I like that.

Hopper can just be glad he's getting some coffee.

Hatteberg can be upset all he wants, he was insurance for Votto, and unfortunately for him it's not necessary. That's selfishness, because the TEAM is definitely benefitting. I say we trade him and Griffey for some young talent and bring up Jay Bruce now.

Unfortunately BP would be thrust into the 3 hole, and CP would still lead off, but at least Dunn and Company could move up a slot.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

ChatterRed
04-29-2008, 04:54 PM
Last time I checked, the Reds were in the top 10 of mlb in taking walks. I'll check again.

Edit: Tied for 10th in mlb in walks with 101.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_team_stats.jsp?statType=1&timeFrame=1&Submit=Submit&groupByTeam=true&baseballScope=mlb&timeSubFrame=2008&sortByStat=BB

Not sure what all the fuss is about in terms of Dusty's approach to hitting. Seems to me the Reds are walking at a pretty decent rate.

2nd Edit:

Reds are..........

15th in OBP in all of mlb.

8th in SLG in all of mlb.

11th in batting avg in all of mlb.

Tied for striking out the 6th least amount of times in all of mlb.

7th in total bases.

12th in RBI.

5th in HR.

7th in hits.

8th in doubles.

11th in runs scored.

Pitching:

17th in e.r.a.

1st in K's.

Allowed the 7th least amount of walks.

Tied for 1st in HR's allowed. That's not surprising playing at GABP.

These stats should add up to more wins than we have. Hopefully the cold hitting start will heat up and even things out.

BLEEDS
04-29-2008, 05:56 PM
Last time I checked, the Reds were in the top 10 of mlb in taking walks. I'll check again.

Edit: Tied for 10th in mlb in walks with 101.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable_team_stats.jsp?statType=1&timeFrame=1&Submit=Submit&groupByTeam=true&baseballScope=mlb&timeSubFrame=2008&sortByStat=BB

Not sure what all the fuss is about in terms of Dusty's approach to hitting. Seems to me the Reds are walking at a pretty decent rate.

2nd Edit:

Reds are..........

15th in OBP in all of mlb.

8th in SLG in all of mlb.

11th in batting avg in all of mlb.

Tied for striking out the 6th least amount of times in all of mlb.

7th in total bases.

12th in RBI.

5th in HR.

7th in hits.

8th in doubles.

11th in runs scored.

Pitching:

17th in e.r.a.

1st in K's.

Allowed the 7th least amount of walks.

Tied for 1st in HR's allowed. That's not surprising playing at GABP.

These stats should add up to more wins than we have. Hopefully the cold hitting start will heat up and even things out.

1 - Yes, we have guys with high BA/OBP/SLG/OPS - unfortunately they are all hitting 5th or later in the lineup... hence, the lack of runs scored on a consistent basis.

2 - When one player accounts for over 1/4 of your total walks, that isn't an indication of good patience across the lineup, it's an indication that your lineup is so crappily structured, that they are going to pitch around your most potent bat whenever and wherever possible.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
04-29-2008, 07:16 PM
And, just piling on now, but:



Tonight's lineup (4/29)

From Fay:

Quote:
Corey Patterson cf
Jeff Keppinger ss
Ken Griffey Jr. rf
Brandon Phillips 2b
Adam Dunn lf
Edwin Encarnacion 3b
Joey Votto 1b
Paul Bako c
Johnny Cueto p

v. RH Joel Pineiro




Our top 3 hitters in OPS are batting 6-7-8.


WOW, can't believe we aren't scoring enough runs - I blame it on the Pitcher, who isn't getting these guys in enough!!! Surely Corey Patterson batting 1st can use his speed to get these guys in right?!?!?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Kingspoint
04-29-2008, 10:46 PM
Thank God Dunn isn't signed long term.

He's Dave Kingman, part two.

This isn't a fluke that he's hitting .202. Dunn's always been a poor average hitter. He hit .213 one year, .234 another. .247 another, and never has hit .270.

He should never bat higher than 6th or 7th. When 2 of your top 5 batters bat .200, it's hard to score runs. Dusty's going to get tired of this and make some changes.

capndees
04-30-2008, 12:56 AM
Wow, this is like the anti-Dunn side of redszone. I think Dunn is a very good and occasionally great run producer, that is when he's not trying so hard NOT to strike out.

Do 4 straight 40 HR seasons and a career .381 OBP (higher than Pete Rose) mean nothing to you?!?

HUHUH
04-30-2008, 10:26 PM
Wow, this is like the anti-Dunn side of redszone. I think Dunn is a very good and occasionally great run producer, that is when he's not trying so hard NOT to strike out.

Do 4 straight 40 HR seasons and a career .381 OBP (higher than Pete Rose) mean nothing to you?!?

A great run producer? Averages 41.5 HR's and 100 RBI. Most guys who hit 40+ HR's drive in 120+. With his OBP, we'd be better off hitting him at the top of the lineup and counting on him to score runs, not drive them in.

Nasty_Boy
05-01-2008, 10:09 AM
The reason his RBIs are so low is because of the guys hitting in front of him. With the slow footed Jr and the out machine Phillips in the 3-4 spots, he's lucky to get 100.

kfm
05-01-2008, 10:33 AM
Dunn needs to bat either 2nd to take advantage of his high OBP or 7th and allow Votto and Edwin to move up. The problem with Dunn is that we all seem to think he is going to be something he isn't. He is not an RBI guy. He is a HR hitting OBP guy. So lets put him in a spot that matches what he is either 2nd or 7th. The problem is that here you cannot pay that guy $16 million a year.

DTCromer
05-01-2008, 10:45 AM
Dunn is the epitome of Cincinnati Reds hitting. He's batting .190 with RISP and is 0-9 with RISP and 2 outs. He's an all or nothing guy who leads the world in worthless HR's. Now, I'm sure some ORG guy will come over here with his fancy smancy BABIP, IDHAIDFJ, and hDIDK stats to somehow convince us Reds fans that he's a guy who hits lot of worthy home runs.

Anyone who thinks he's worth part of our payroll next year is nuts. For what he brings to the table, he's not worth the headaches.

44Magnum
05-01-2008, 11:13 AM
I can't wait for Dunn and Jr. to be gone. They are making about 25 mil. combined. The Reds could do far better with that money.

Nasty_Boy
05-01-2008, 11:15 AM
Dunn is the epitome of Cincinnati Reds hitting. He's batting .190 with RISP and is 0-9 with RISP and 2 outs. He's an all or nothing guy who leads the world in worthless HR's. Now, I'm sure some ORG guy will come over here with his fancy smancy BABIP, IDHAIDFJ, and hDIDK stats to somehow convince us Reds fans that he's a guy who hits lot of worthy home runs.

Anyone who thinks he's worth part of our payroll next year is nuts. For what he brings to the table, he's not worth the headaches.


What headaches? He's not out getting in trouble (a la Ryan Freel), he's not complaining about playing time or the media (Ryan Freel, Brandon Phillips, Scott Hatteberg). The only headache I see is Brandon Phillips swinging at everything, Corey Patterson not taking pitches, and stupid baserunning (i.e. Phillips, Kepp, Freel, Patterson, and Hairston). People who don't think Adam Dunn has been the best hitter the Reds have had in recent memory is nuts. And fancy smancy stats are what players on the best teams have... Dunn is a championship ballplayer surrounded by a bunch of losers!

capndees
05-01-2008, 11:18 AM
I've been wanting Dunn to bat 2nd for years. Reds mgmt will try it occasionally, Dunn does fine, and they move him down the order again.

Dunn has the highest career OBP on the team, and the third-highest SLG (behind Griffey and Votto). That's a guy you want hitting 2nd, not 5th.

Dunn has hit plenty of meaningful homeruns, although none this year obviously. But those situations tend to come up late in games and can happen to anybody. Dunn's primary objective should be getting on base in front of Griffey, Votto, and Encarnacion, or hitting solo and 2-run homeruns to give us a quick lead.

Fil3232
05-01-2008, 11:27 AM
I can't wait for Dunn and Jr. to be gone. They are making about 25 mil. combined. The Reds could do far better with that money.


Like who?

Just curious who you have in mind...

Rounding Third
05-01-2008, 12:11 PM
Why can't Adam Dunn pick when to hit home runs? I hate having a guy that will drive in 100 runs and take 100 walks while scoring 100 runs and hitting 40 home runs each year! I don't think anybody would want somebody like that on their team. And add on top of all of that, he takes rookies under his wing and is a great clubhouse influence!

eastkyred
05-01-2008, 12:19 PM
1 - Yes, we have guys with high BA/OBP/SLG/OPS - unfortunately they are all hitting 5th or later in the lineup... hence, the lack of runs scored on a consistent basis.

2 - When one player accounts for over 1/4 of your total walks, that isn't an indication of good patience across the lineup, it's an indication that your lineup is so crappily structured, that they are going to pitch around your most potent bat whenever and wherever possible.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Don't these two points contradict each other. 1 - our best hitters start with the #5 hitter (Dunn) 2- they are pitching around Dunn because of the lineup that follows him. I agree that the lineup is poorly constructed, but does it always have to be somebody else's fault that Dunn is not producing?

BLEEDS
05-01-2008, 12:22 PM
I can't wait for Dunn and Jr. to be gone. They are making about 25 mil. combined. The Reds could do far better with that money.

You are right. They MIGHT be able to get someone to do better than Dunn for about $25M per year... Is Manny Ramirez a FA next year?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
05-01-2008, 01:06 PM
Don't these two points contradict each other. 1 - our best hitters start with the #5 hitter (Dunn) 2- they are pitching around Dunn because of the lineup that follows him. I agree that the lineup is poorly constructed, but does it always have to be somebody else's fault that Dunn is not producing?

Only if it's taken out of context.

This was in regards to our offense in general under Dusty, and in particular in response to a guy throwing up a bunch of stats without looking deeper into them.

Yes, we hit a lot of HR's, get a lot of hits, OPS and SLG well. Unfortunately it's in the BOTTOM HALF of the order. That's why our RBI's and Runs Scored are middle of the pack, despite upper-echelon power numbers.

All your WORST hitters are earlier in the lineup, so when those decent guys come up, nobody's on base. Then we cry because Adam Dunn hits so many solo HR's. Then, when there IS somebody on base, or in scoring position, with 2 outs - e.g. 1st base open, what pitcher in their Right Mind is going to pitch to Dunn?!?! When you have a struggling EE and an AGon behind him (historically).

This year, so far, Votto and Bako are hitting the crap out of the ball, but they're batting 7th and 8th, so Corey Patterson can get on once out of every 5 times and then BP can hit into a DP.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

tommycash
05-01-2008, 01:26 PM
Only if it's taken out of context.

This was in regards to our offense in general under Dusty, and in particular in response to a guy throwing up a bunch of stats without looking deeper into them.

Yes, we hit a lot of HR's, get a lot of hits, OPS and SLG well. Unfortunately it's in the BOTTOM HALF of the order. That's why our RBI's and Runs Scored are middle of the pack, despite upper-echelon power numbers.

All your WORST hitters are earlier in the lineup, so when those decent guys come up, nobody's on base. Then we cry because Adam Dunn hits so many solo HR's. Then, when there IS somebody on base, or in scoring position, with 2 outs - e.g. 1st base open, what pitcher in their Right Mind is going to pitch to Dunn?!?! When you have a struggling EE and an AGon behind him (historically).

This year, so far, Votto and Bako are hitting the crap out of the ball, but they're batting 7th and 8th, so Corey Patterson can get on once out of every 5 times and then BP can hit into a DP.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I don't think you can say that EE isn't hitting very well behind Dunn this year. I do think EE needs to be batting 4th right now.

kfm
05-01-2008, 01:30 PM
The guys behind Dunn are the reason he is struggling. What stats have you been looking at. The guys behind Dunn namely EE, Votto and Bako along with Keppinger have hit the best on the team. I like Dunn, and I think he would improve this teams run production by batting second, but to blame the hitters behind him for his struggles is as clueless a statment as Jeff Brantley saying that the guy who has lead this team in RISP. Dunn is hitting poorly because of his propensity for swinging at low and away changeups that are out of the strikezone and missing the pitches he gets to hit. Blaming the hottest hitters on the team is missing the point completely.

44Magnum
05-01-2008, 02:16 PM
I'm not saying the Reds need to spend the 25 mil on one person next season. It wouldn't take much in RF and LF to make me happy. I simply can't stand watching players who can't play defense.

tommycash
05-01-2008, 02:36 PM
I am gonna throw a Dunn question out there. Who would you rather have in his prime. Adam Dunn or Brian Giles?

BLEEDS
05-01-2008, 03:18 PM
The guys behind Dunn are the reason he is struggling. What stats have you been looking at. The guys behind Dunn namely EE, Votto and Bako along with Keppinger have hit the best on the team. I like Dunn, and I think he would improve this teams run production by batting second, but to blame the hitters behind him for his struggles is as clueless a statment as Jeff Brantley saying that the guy who has lead this team in RISP. Dunn is hitting poorly because of his propensity for swinging at low and away changeups that are out of the strikezone and missing the pitches he gets to hit. Blaming the hottest hitters on the team is missing the point completely.

READING COMPREHENSION. I said HISTORICALLY.

Obviously EE and Votto are much better right now. EE was struggling pretty bad out of the gate, but has warmed up. But in the last couple of years he's had some LONG stretches of inconsistency - you know, like being sent down to AAA isn't a signal of anything - so when a pitcher has a base open, they aren't pitching to Dunn because they're afraid of who's batting behind him.

I also have stated - and got argued with - that our best hitters (OBP, OPS) are batting in the 2nd half of the lineup right now.

Bako is doing well now too, but don't expect that to continue forever. David Ross had one good year, but unless you're Pudge Rodriquez - who doesn't bat 8th - then catchers aren't who you expect the pitchers to be afraid of in crucial situations.

It's May now, nobody has any excuses on it being early anymore. Time for these guys to produce regardless.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

capndees
05-01-2008, 03:54 PM
I am gonna throw a Dunn question out there. Who would you rather have in his prime. Adam Dunn or Brian Giles?
Assuming Dunn has already had his best season, then I'll take Brian Giles. If Dunn hasn't peaked yet, then I'll wait and see....

Jack Burton
05-01-2008, 05:08 PM
All this bashing on Dunn and what for? He is our greatest clutch hitter and by far our best defensive outfielder. Must be his gazelle like speed.

kfm
05-02-2008, 11:38 AM
READING COMPREHENSION. I said HISTORICALLY.

Obviously EE and Votto are much better right now. EE was struggling pretty bad out of the gate, but has warmed up. But in the last couple of years he's had some LONG stretches of inconsistency - you know, like being sent down to AAA isn't a signal of anything - so when a pitcher has a base open, they aren't pitching to Dunn because they're afraid of who's batting behind him.

I also have stated - and got argued with - that our best hitters (OBP, OPS) are batting in the 2nd half of the lineup right now.

Bako is doing well now too, but don't expect that to continue forever. David Ross had one good year, but unless you're Pudge Rodriquez - who doesn't bat 8th - then catchers aren't who you expect the pitchers to be afraid of in crucial situations.

It's May now, nobody has any excuses on it being early anymore. Time for these guys to produce regardless.

PEACE

-BLEEDS



So all of Dunn's struggles come down to EE or Agon? AGON has been on the team for a year. So who do they get to blame for their struggles. Why are there so many excuses for this guy. Dunn is not clutch, he is not an RBI guy, he has a career .222 average with RISP, yet the EE, who has struggled so badly to hamper Dunn's career, hit around .360 with RISP. Check EE with RISP or EE with bases loaded or EE with bases loaded or RISP and two outs, and then compare that to Dunn. STop making excuses. Who is protecting EE to allow him to put up these numbers? I'm sure that Dunn would not make such a silly argument.

Nasty_Boy
05-02-2008, 11:52 AM
You talk about BA w/RISP, so that means EE should drive in more runs then Dunn. You talk about the bases loaded stats, look at last season EE had 17 ABs to Dunn's 8. Both guys were highly successful, as EE OPSed 1197 and Dunn OPSed 1217. I think the biggest thing that is overlooked with Dunn is the fact that if a runner is on 1st he is in scoring position when AD is at the plate. He leads the team in RBIs every year, so my suggestion is to have more guys on in front of him if you want to see his RBI total go up.

BLEEDS
05-02-2008, 01:46 PM
You talk about BA w/RISP, so that means EE should drive in more runs then Dunn. You talk about the bases loaded stats, look at last season EE had 17 ABs to Dunn's 8. Both guys were highly successful, as EE OPSed 1197 and Dunn OPSed 1217. I think the biggest thing that is overlooked with Dunn is the fact that if a runner is on 1st he is in scoring position when AD is at the plate. He leads the team in RBIs every year, so my suggestion is to have more guys on in front of him if you want to see his RBI total go up.

You sir, and your logic, have no place in this forum.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

757690
05-02-2008, 02:45 PM
You talk about BA w/RISP, so that means EE should drive in more runs then Dunn. You talk about the bases loaded stats, look at last season EE had 17 ABs to Dunn's 8. Both guys were highly successful, as EE OPSed 1197 and Dunn OPSed 1217. I think the biggest thing that is overlooked with Dunn is the fact that if a runner is on 1st he is in scoring position when AD is at the plate. He leads the team in RBIs every year, so my suggestion is to have more guys on in front of him if you want to see his RBI total go up.

No one is saying that Dunn is not productive, or the most productive hitter on the team. He has been for the last 4-5 years. But that is the Reds problem. He should not be. He is not suited for carrying a team.

He is best suited for batting away from the middle of the lineup, since he does not hit well with men on base. He gets walks and homers, which artificially drive up his OPS, but what you need out of a true middle lineup guy is someone who has a high batting avg. with men on base. Compared to other middle of the lineup hitters on championship teams, Dunn is one of the worst.

Anybody who hits 40 homers is going to drive in 100 runs and score 100 runs. They only need to add 60 to each category with out the homers, not tough to do. As I showed in another post, Dunn is the worst run producer out of all the most recent 40 home run hitters, by a lot.

Yes Dunn is the Reds best run producer, but that is why the Reds usually rank in the bottom half of the league in offense every year.

Rounding Third
05-02-2008, 02:50 PM
No one is saying that Dunn is not productive, or the most productive hitter on the team. He has been for the last 4-5 years. But that is the Reds problem. He should not be. He is not suited for carrying a team.

He is best suited for batting away from the middle of the lineup, since he does not hit well with men on base. He gets walks and homers, which artificially drive up his OPS, but what you need out of a true middle lineup guy is someone who has a high batting avg. with men on base. Compared to other middle of the lineup hitters on championship teams, Dunn is one of the worst.

Anybody who hits 40 homers is going to drive in 100 runs and score 100 runs. They only need to add 60 to each category with out the homers, not tough to do. As I showed in another post, Dunn is the worst run producer out of all the most recent 40 home run hitters, by a lot.

Yes Dunn is the Reds best run producer, but that is why the Reds usually rank in the bottom half of the league in offense every year.

Very good points.

Stop asking Dunn to do something he is not. He is not going to hit .320 or for that matter even .300. A batter that has a high career batting average will have a higher career batting average with RISP.

Adam Dunn is very very good at getting on base. Put him in the #2 hole. Let him get on base for the #3, 4 and 5 hitters. But you also have to make those 3,4 and 5 hitters be people like Votto, Bruce and Encarnacion.

Dunn would be a great #2 hitter to hit behind a guy that gets on base a lot as well, like Keppinger or somebody fast like Phillips. If there is somebody who can get on base a lot and swipe a few bags and Dunn is up, he is going to get more fastballs. And if there are people who can swing the bat behind him, he is going to get more balls in the zone.

Use him correctly, don't try to change him.

BLEEDS
05-02-2008, 03:03 PM
He gets walks and homers, which artificially drive up his OPS, but what you need out of a true middle lineup guy is someone who has a high batting avg. with men on base.

Can you please tell me/us what is "Artificial" about walks and homers in determining OPS?!?! It's about as NON-Artificial as it comes.

Removing walks (which adds to OBP) and homeruns (which adds to SLG) from OPS, leaves you with something that closely resembles - and by that I mean PRACTICALLY IDENTICALLY EQUALS - Batting Average. Which, most baseball stat gurus will tell you, is about the MOST MEANINGLESS (or you might say "artificial") STAT in all of Baseball.

that leaves you with only your precious BA with RISP stat, which has already been debated a million times, along with RBI's - which Adam was #10 in ALL OF BASEBALL in 2007 - to beat up on.

Prince Fielder had 50 HR's last year - 10 more than Dunn's 40 - and only 13 more RBI - 3 more beyond the 10 HR's. They should be looking to trade him.

Dunn had more HR/RBI/BB/R than Albert Pujols last year, in 40 less AB's. I guess St. Louis is getting jobbed worse huh. Well, WAIT!, Pujols hit .327, so he's obviously more valuable... :confused:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

757690
05-02-2008, 03:04 PM
The reason his RBIs are so low is because of the guys hitting in front of him. With the slow footed Jr and the out machine Phillips in the 3-4 spots, he's lucky to get 100.

Over the years he had 100 RBI's, Dunn mostly had Casey, Griffey, Freel, Jimenez, Randa, Lopez, Larkin and Hatteberg hit in front of him. Here are their OPB for the years they were ahead of him.

Casey .381 .371
Lopez .352 .355
Freel .375 .371 .363
Griffey .351 .369 .316 .372
Larkin .352
Jimenez .364
Randa .356
Hatteberg .389 .394

Lopez, Freel, Larkin, and Jimenez were fast, and everyone except for one year of Jr. had OPB of over .350. Plenty of runners, most of them fast, in front of Dunn. Granted, not too many this year, but plenty in the past.

BLEEDS
05-02-2008, 03:28 PM
This is a non-conclusive argument, as pretty much all Dunn debates go.

half (relatively) of all people will tell you Dunn can only produce 40/100/100/100 and he stinks because of it, because it should be 50/150/150/150 and he should hit .350 as both BA and w/RISP.

half (relatively) of all the people will tell you it's a miracle of grand proportions that he gets 40/100/100/100 as it is, because he gets pitched around, because the years he had OBP in front of him he had nobody behind him, and the times he people behind him he had nobody in front of him.

I am somewhere in the middle, but realize that we're not getting anything NEAR that production for that price, and top 10-15 run-producers/OPS outfielders don't grow on trees, like everyone thinks they should. They want top 5 production for top 25 or less prices...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

757690
05-02-2008, 03:28 PM
Can you please tell me/us what is "Artificial" about walks and homers in determining OPS?!?! It's about as NON-Artificial as it comes.

Removing walks (which adds to OBP) and homeruns (which adds to SLG) from OPS, leaves you with something that closely resembles - and by that I mean PRACTICALLY IDENTICALLY EQUALS - Batting Average. Which, most baseball stat gurus will tell you, is about the MOST MEANINGLESS (or you might say "artificial") STAT in all of Baseball.

No one says that BA is meaningless, just that OBP is better way to judge a players overall worth to a team. I agree, except for middle of the lineup hitters, where batting average is more important with men on bese for the reasons I have stated.


that leaves you with only your precious BA with RISP stat, which has already been debated a million times, along with RBI's - which Adam was #10 in ALL OF BASEBALL in 2007 - to beat up on.

As I stated before, anyone hitting 40 homers will get 100 RBI's. Dunn is the least productive of all 40 home run hitters in recent history, except for Soriano, who did it batting leadoff.


Prince Fielder had 50 HR's last year - 10 more than Dunn's 40 - and only 13 more RBI - 3 more beyond the 10 HR's. They should be looking to trade him.

Fielder is way over-rated. He will be the next Adam Dunn. No need for the Brewers to trade him, he is still young and cheap.


Dunn had more HR/RBI/BB/R than Albert Pujols last year, in 40 less AB's. I guess St. Louis is getting jobbed worse huh. Well, WAIT!, Pujols hit .327, so he's obviously more valuable... :confused:



Yes, Pujols did have a bad year last year, which is why the Cards did so poorly. Pujols had his entire team fall apart around him. He had Edmonds and Rolen have terrible years behind him and he still hit .327. I'd like to see Dunn do that.

Again, not saying Dunn is bad, just that the Reds need someone better as their main hitter if they want to compete. If they can keep him and get a real cleanup hitter, great. Otherwise, trade him.

Lockdwn11
05-02-2008, 03:32 PM
Can you please tell me/us what is "Artificial" about walks and homers in determining OPS?!?! It's about as NON-Artificial as it comes.

Removing walks (which adds to OBP) and homeruns (which adds to SLG) from OPS, leaves you with something that closely resembles - and by that I mean PRACTICALLY IDENTICALLY EQUALS - Batting Average. Which, most baseball stat gurus will tell you, is about the MOST MEANINGLESS (or you might say "artificial") STAT in all of Baseball.

that leaves you with only your precious BA with RISP stat, which has already been debated a million times, along with RBI's - which Adam was #10 in ALL OF BASEBALL in 2007 - to beat up on.

Prince Fielder had 50 HR's last year - 10 more than Dunn's 40 - and only 13 more RBI - 3 more beyond the 10 HR's. They should be looking to trade him.

Dunn had more HR/RBI/BB/R than Albert Pujols last year, in 40 less AB's. I guess St. Louis is getting jobbed worse huh. Well, WAIT!, Pujols hit .327, so he's obviously more valuable... :confused:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Well who would you say is more valuable Dunn or Pujols? Thats a easy one so please reply.

Ed Otten
05-02-2008, 04:38 PM
As I stated before, anyone hitting 40 homers will get 100 RBI's. Dunn is the least productive of all 40 home run hitters in recent history, except for Soriano, who did it batting leadoff.


That reminds me of the following joke:

Q. What do you call the person who graduates last in medical school?

A. Doctor.

757690
05-02-2008, 05:50 PM
That reminds me of the following joke:

Q. What do you call the person who graduates last in medical school?

A. Doctor.

lol. I love that joke too, but if you knew that would you go to that doctor if you were sick?

Ed Otten
05-02-2008, 06:06 PM
lol. I love that joke too, but if you knew that would you go to that doctor if you were sick?

That's an interesting point, so I guess my response is that going to that doctor is better than going to no doctor at all.

Translating that to baseball, while there are "better" 40 HR baseball players than Dunn, he is still a 40 HR baseball player, and it's better than not having one at all. And he does already play for the Reds.

Of course, if you could get another, "better" 40 HR player, than I guess that's fine. But it's easier said than Dunn (I had to), and there are obviously no guarantees.

So my question to you is, would you give up the worst graduate of medical school as your doctor if you weren't guaranteed to get one of the "better" graduates of medical school as your replacement doctor?

BLEEDS
05-02-2008, 07:00 PM
Translating that to baseball, while there are "better" 40 HR baseball players than Dunn, he is still a 40 HR baseball player, and it's better than not having one at all. And he does already play for the Reds.

So my question to you is, would you give up the worst graduate of medical school as your doctor if you weren't guaranteed to get one of the "better" graduates of medical school as your replacement doctor?



Again, not saying Dunn is bad, just that the Reds need someone better as their main hitter if they want to compete. If they can keep him and get a real cleanup hitter, great. Otherwise, trade him.

Exactly. We are saying we have a doctor, and he is already on our staff. However, he is more of a General Practitioner, yet still a VERY GOOD Doctor.

For the money we pay our Doctor, you can only get a Veterinarian, but you want a Brain Surgeon.

We can afford our Doctor and 3-4 Interns and be successful. Apparently you would rather have one Brain Surgeon and 5 drunk frat boys who are "Pre-Med".

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
05-02-2008, 07:03 PM
Yes, Pujols did have a bad year last year, which is why the Cards did so poorly. Pujols had his entire team fall apart around him. He had Edmonds and Rolen have terrible years behind him and he still hit .327. I'd like to see Dunn do that.



Why would it make you feel better for Dunn to have a higher Batting Average, but worse "Production" ? That is the problem with that type of analysis.

Also, don't you know you shouldn't blame "the team around him" for his lack of Production. Just look at his year-end stats, and tell me he should have done better.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Lockdwn11
05-02-2008, 07:15 PM
Well who would you say is more valuable Dunn or Pujols? Thats a easy one so please reply.

Bleeds, no answer? I mean you did bring it up.

kfm
05-02-2008, 07:18 PM
Very good points.

Stop asking Dunn to do something he is not. He is not going to hit .320 or for that matter even .300. A batter that has a high career batting average will have a higher career batting average with RISP.

Adam Dunn is very very good at getting on base. Put him in the #2 hole. Let him get on base for the #3, 4 and 5 hitters. But you also have to make those 3,4 and 5 hitters be people like Votto, Bruce and Encarnacion.

Dunn would be a great #2 hitter to hit behind a guy that gets on base a lot as well, like Keppinger or somebody fast like Phillips. If there is somebody who can get on base a lot and swipe a few bags and Dunn is up, he is going to get more fastballs. And if there are people who can swing the bat behind him, he is going to get more balls in the zone.

Use him correctly, don't try to change him.


Could not have said it better. He is a number 2 hitter and would be one of the best #2 hitters in the game, but sticking him in the middle of the order just so he can hit .220 with RISP or .200 with the bases loaded is lunacy. I like Dunn and I am not a Dunn basher, but he is not a middle of the order hitter. Putting more guys in front of him will only cause him to fail more unless they are only on 1st base. Dunn is a homerun hitter OBP guy. EE is an RBI guy. That is why EE can play way fewer games hit half as many homeruns and only drive in about 20 fewer runs.

757690
05-02-2008, 07:38 PM
Exactly. We are saying we have a doctor, and he is already on our staff. However, he is more of a General Practitioner, yet still a VERY GOOD Doctor.

For the money we pay our Doctor, you can only get a Veterinarian, but you want a Brain Surgeon.

We can afford our Doctor and 3-4 Interns and be successful. Apparently you would rather have one Brain Surgeon and 5 drunk frat boys who are "Pre-Med".

PEACE

-BLEEDS$36M contract

But Dunn will get paid like a "brain surgeon" after this year. Look, Andruw Jones put up the worst #'s of his career, and got a 2 year $36M contract. That's 18M a year. Dunn will get that at least, even if he has a terrible year this year.

He is a very good, productive player, and worth what he is getting paid this year, but he is not worth re-signing. It will cost too much. I think the best deal the Reds could get would be a 4 year $65M contract, and there is no way Dunn is worth that. I would rather take the money saved, get a decent LF, who are easy to come by, and spend the rest on a good catcher or fifth starter, or whatever the Reds needs are after this season.

If Dunn would re-up for what he is making this year, I say keep him and bat him second. But he won't, so better trade him now than let him walk, especially with Bruce ready.

757690
05-02-2008, 07:41 PM
Why would it make you feel better for Dunn to have a higher Batting Average, but worse "Production" ? That is the problem with that type of analysis.

Also, don't you know you shouldn't blame "the team around him" for his lack of Production. Just look at his year-end stats, and tell me he should have done better.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I was conceding that Pujols had about the same year as Dunn in terms of production. I was just saying that even though he had no protection at all, he still managed to hit .327, which Dunn could never do, even if he had Ruth and Aaron hitting behind him.

Homer Bailey
05-02-2008, 07:46 PM
$36M contract

But Dunn will get paid like a "brain surgeon" after this year. Look, Andruw Jones put up the worst #'s of his career, and got a 2 year $36M contract. That's 18M a year. Dunn will get that at least, even if he has a terrible year this year.



You name the number, and I will bet you that number that Dunn does not get $18 MM a year. NO WAY.

redsfanmia
05-02-2008, 07:55 PM
$36M contract

But Dunn will get paid like a "brain surgeon" after this year. Look, Andruw Jones put up the worst #'s of his career, and got a 2 year $36M contract. That's 18M a year. Dunn will get that at least, even if he has a terrible year this year.

He is a very good, productive player, and worth what he is getting paid this year, but he is not worth re-signing. It will cost too much. I think the best deal the Reds could get would be a 4 year $65M contract, and there is no way Dunn is worth that. I would rather take the money saved, get a decent LF, who are easy to come by, and spend the rest on a good catcher or fifth starter, or whatever the Reds needs are after this season.

If Dunn would re-up for what he is making this year, I say keep him and bat him second. But he won't, so better trade him now than let him walk, especially with Bruce ready.

If a GM signs Dunn for $18 million a year he will be unemployed within a year of the signing.

redsfanmia
05-02-2008, 07:57 PM
There are plenty of teams who win more than the Reds who dont have a 40 home run guy. The last year the Reds won the world series did they have a 40 home run guy?

Ed Otten
05-02-2008, 08:38 PM
$36M contract

But Dunn will get paid like a "brain surgeon" after this year. Look, Andruw Jones put up the worst #'s of his career, and got a 2 year $36M contract. That's 18M a year. Dunn will get that at least, even if he has a terrible year this year.

He is a very good, productive player, and worth what he is getting paid this year, but he is not worth re-signing. It will cost too much. I think the best deal the Reds could get would be a 4 year $65M contract, and there is no way Dunn is worth that. I would rather take the money saved, get a decent LF, who are easy to come by, and spend the rest on a good catcher or fifth starter, or whatever the Reds needs are after this season.

If Dunn would re-up for what he is making this year, I say keep him and bat him second. But he won't, so better trade him now than let him walk, especially with Bruce ready.

What do you mean by "decent" LF? I mean, what is your criteria? Because I don't think they are that easy to come by. I think Dunn is a "better than decent" LF, mostly because while his defensive performance is less than average, his offensive production (historically) has been ridiculously above average. So why get rid of him?

And he will cost a bunch, no doubt.

And perhaps that's what it comes down to. I think Dunn, giving his offensive production, (and given how the Reds even with Dunn have offensive production problems), is worth the going rate for that level of production. I don't want to try and REPLACE Dunn's production with Votto, EE, Bruce, etc. and whoever else we can get but rather would have Dunn's production ADD to Votto, EE, Bruce, etc. I think that the team can afford to pay Dunn the going rate for 3-4 years, given that many of the other players are so young and cheap.

But you don't think he's worth that going rate, and that's fine. It's just a difference of opinion.

But I think you are putting a lot of faith in the idea that Votto, EE, Bruce, and whoever else we get will be able to replace (at a cheaper price) what those guys plus Dunn gives us (albiet at a higher price).

A lineup with Dunn, EE, Votto, and Bruce in the middle of the order for the next couple years seems pretty darn good to me.

A lineup with EE, Votto, Bruce, and a "decent" LF doesn't seem as good.

Hondo
05-02-2008, 09:04 PM
If Dunn leaves, everyone will be complaining about "How the Front Office should have done more to resign Dunn"

Thats the way it is here...

Nasty_Boy
05-03-2008, 01:07 AM
After trying to figure out if there are any Reds fans left with any sense at all... I have concluded that there are none! I am truely amazed at the stupidity of the common fan.

BLEEDS
05-03-2008, 01:19 AM
What do you mean by "decent" LF? I mean, what is your criteria? Because I don't think they are that easy to come by. I think Dunn is a "better than decent" LF, mostly because while his defensive performance is less than average, his offensive production (historically) has been ridiculously above average. So why get rid of him?

I think Dunn, giving his offensive production, (and given how the Reds even with Dunn have offensive production problems), is worth the going rate for that level of production. I don't want to try and REPLACE Dunn's production with Votto, EE, Bruce, etc. and whoever else we can get but rather would have Dunn's production ADD to Votto, EE, Bruce, etc. I think that the team can afford to pay Dunn the going rate for 3-4 years, given that many of the other players are so young and cheap.

But you don't think he's worth that going rate, and that's fine. It's just a difference of opinion.

But I think you are putting a lot of faith in the idea that Votto, EE, Bruce, and whoever else we get will be able to replace (at a cheaper price) what those guys plus Dunn gives us (albiet at a higher price).

A lineup with Dunn, EE, Votto, and Bruce in the middle of the order for the next couple years seems pretty darn good to me.

A lineup with EE, Votto, Bruce, and a "decent" LF doesn't seem as good.

I agree with this 100%.

I also agree that I wouldn't pay $18M for Dunn.

I would expect a 5 year $75M deal. To me, that would be a steal. That would also fit within the "window" of opportunity we have with 2-4 young, cheap pitchers, 2-4 young, cheap bats - all relatively speaking of course since some of them are going to be approaching Arbitration at some point - to go along with Harang/Arroyo/Cordero as the proven vets in the prime of their careers. You need to have at least ONE proven "vet" in the prime of his career in the lineup to go along with the rest of the young core.

And, for the millionth time, Bruce is to replace Griffey - not Dunn AND Griffey. We need AT LEAST two good outfielders if we are going to go "Scrap Bin" or <$5M in CF. We can't replace both of them with "upgrades" at 3-4 positions. For all that Griffey isn't anymore, he's still a .900 OPS Outfielder. Apparently those grow on trees I've heard, but it's a rumor.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Newman4
05-03-2008, 01:31 AM
My biggest problem with Dunn isn't so much his actual value as much as it is his lack of improvement. When he hits the ball he hits it probably harder than anyone considering more than half of his hits are doubles and HRs every year. So why not try to improve and hit it more often? I remember hearing stories of Michael Jordan advising LeBron James to work on something particular to improve your game each off season and not become complacent. Dunn seems to be basicially the same player every year. (Not that he's a bad player, just never any better) The fact that he does not improve his strikeouts and improve his BA is troubling. Considering that he will probably want a long-term deal for lots of money going into his 30s, this is even more cause for concern.

757690
05-03-2008, 01:37 AM
What do you mean by "decent" LF? I mean, what is your criteria? Because I don't think they are that easy to come by. I think Dunn is a "better than decent" LF, mostly because while his defensive performance is less than average, his offensive production (historically) has been ridiculously above average. So why get rid of him?

And he will cost a bunch, no doubt.

And perhaps that's what it comes down to. I think Dunn, giving his offensive production, (and given how the Reds even with Dunn have offensive production problems), is worth the going rate for that level of production. I don't want to try and REPLACE Dunn's production with Votto, EE, Bruce, etc. and whoever else we can get but rather would have Dunn's production ADD to Votto, EE, Bruce, etc. I think that the team can afford to pay Dunn the going rate for 3-4 years, given that many of the other players are so young and cheap.

But you don't think he's worth that going rate, and that's fine. It's just a difference of opinion.

But I think you are putting a lot of faith in the idea that Votto, EE, Bruce, and whoever else we get will be able to replace (at a cheaper price) what those guys plus Dunn gives us (albiet at a higher price).

A lineup with Dunn, EE, Votto, and Bruce in the middle of the order for the next couple years seems pretty darn good to me.

A lineup with EE, Votto, Bruce, and a "decent" LF doesn't seem as good.

Although remember I advice using the money saved to on LF to get a good #5 starting pitcher or good starting catcher or both. One other option is to move EE to left, Kepp to 3rd and use all that money to really fill some holes, like a real middle of the lineup slugger if Votto, Bruce or EE don't develop into one.

Still you and Bleeds make good points. I guess the best thing is to wait and see what EE. Votto, and Bruce develop into this year and see how well Phillips and Dunn do. We should all have a better idea by the All-Star break.

BLEEDS
05-03-2008, 02:48 AM
My biggest problem with Dunn isn't so much his actual value as much as it is his lack of improvement. When he hits the ball he hits it probably harder than anyone considering more than half of his hits are doubles and HRs every year. So why not try to improve and hit it more often? I remember hearing stories of Michael Jordan advising LeBron James to work on something particular to improve your game each off season and not become complacent. Dunn seems to be basicially the same player every year. (Not that he's a bad player, just never any better) The fact that he does not improve his strikeouts and improve his BA is troubling. Considering that he will probably want a long-term deal for lots of money going into his 30s, this is even more cause for concern.

Did you pay attention to last year at all? He did both of those things, posting his near-career best BA (.264 vs. .266 in 2004) while retaining OBP and SLG numbers; probably compiling his best numbers as a whole (considering all areas) in his career.

I've only heard and read that he's his biggest critic, and is constantly working on his hitting, and knows he is capable of more. I don't think the revolving door of hitting coaches, and the now infamous Dusty Baker approach to hitting, is helping his cause very much, but he'll somehow manage to get his power numbers, despite a BB rate that was near 200 at one point, and is probably still pretty darn close to 150...

This other fallacy that he'd be a great #2 hitter, is because people look at his stats in those holes, which are GREATLY skewed by 30 games in 2006 where he batted .317 in 123 AB's, in what was his WORST year statistically since he struggled everywhere else he hit - wavering around the mendoza line. NO WAY he produces those numbers over a full year. It's a ridiculously small sample size - versus say his 5 hole stats versus 4 hole which are WAY more statistically significant. Also, his OBP would be much less since the MAJORITY of his BB's are with runners on/ISP, which happens a bit further down in the lineup; way up over 400 in recent years, including a few years with OVER .500 OBP in certain situations. Yeah, that has NOTHING to do with pitchers pitching around him to get to less "dangerous" guys over the years... :confused:

Oh well, like I said, there's never going to be a consensus, and most of the same stats that people try to use to argue AGAINST him aren't done with enough research to understand the impact of the situations and personnel that support(ed) them, and actually end up proving the opposite if you look deep enough.

Regardless, this is DEFINITELY a case of looking a Gift Horse - or in this case a Big Donkey - in the mouth. And you thought the line of people complaining about us dumping WK, who had previously been the ones lining up to lynch him, was bad. Wait for IFF and when the Reds let the Big Donk go, getting little to nothing in return for him, and getting NOTHING to replace him in FA for anything closely resembling a better ROI value.

I'd MUCH rather hear those people complain about us "overpaying" for 40 HR's and .900+ OPS than the alternative.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Newman4
05-03-2008, 01:02 PM
Did you pay attention to last year at all?

Yeah, I did. And the year before that, and the year before that.....and the year before that. He hasn't improved substantially. I'm not talking about batting 16 points above his career average. (.248 to .264), I mean a drastic improvement in clear areas of weakness. He continues to strike out at a horrible rate and fails to make contact as much as he should. (This is clearly shown with his low BA and numbers with RISP pointed out by many others) His defense is god-awful and is only getting worse. He would be best served on an AL club that has a high payroll that can afford to pay Dunn for the things he can do and look over the deficiencies he has. Alas, as long as people take up for these deficiencies and someone pays him 13-18 million dollars per year then he won't get any better. What ever happened to striving to be a complete ballplayer?

Cincinnati IMO can not pay large portions of their payroll to guys that are limited. They need decent, young, all-around players that can perform adquately in all areas of hitting and then spend the money on frontline pitching if they're to compete.

PEACE -

Newman

texasdave
05-03-2008, 01:58 PM
AD is a very very good hitter. He is not great. He is not on the same level as Pujols or Manny. But he is very very good nonetheless. Also he is the best Reds' hitter for every spot in the lineup. Bat him first and he is the best leadoff hitter on the club. Bat him cleanup and the same thing applies. Bat him a Larussa-ish ninth and he is the best Reds' option at that spot as well. I would be more than a little surprised that if after 162 games he hasn't posted numbers close to his career norms. So to his detractors I would say this - stop worrying about Adam Dunn because he will hit.

To his supporters I would say stop making up bogus excuses. They aren't necessary. Adam Dunn is the best offensive weapon in the Cincinnati arsenal. He will very probably hit in the 5th spot if Dusty leaves him there. How do I know? Because he did pretty well in the 5th spot after the managerial change last year. Pete Mackanin stuck him in the 5th spot almost exclusively during the second half of '07. He started 70 games during that stretch, 63 of them in the five hole.
His OPS during that stretch? Only .968. Even if he went crazy during the other seven games, his OPS probably would stay around .950. As far as protection goes he has had much more protection in '08 so far than he had in the second half of 2007. In those 63 games Edwin Encarcion hit behind him in just over a third of them. His other protectors? Javier Valentin came next, then Scott Hatteberg then Jeff Conine. Jeff 'freakin' Conine! I think everyone would agree that his protection in '08 beats that group.

Does Dusty Baker's aggressive approach bring AD down? Numbers from Fangraphs.com indicate otherwise. People say Dunn is being aggressive which has led to him seeing less pitches. Not true. Last season he saw 4.18 pitches per plate attempt. This season that number is actually up - to 4.24. One might think that being more aggressive would lead Dunn to swing at a higher percentage of pitches both in and out of the strike zone. Neither is true. He is fishing outside the strike zone at 13.6% of the pitches this year, as opposed to 21.2% last year. A big drop. Inside the strike zone the numbers have dropped to 64.9% this season when compared to 68.1% a year ago. Overall he swung at 43.4% of the pitches thrown to him in '07; this year that is down to 36.6%. If Baker is preaching aggressive swinging, Adam does not seem to be listening.

He is seeing less pitches in the strike zone, but not overwhelmingly less.
To be sure Adam Dunn's game has some warts, but let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill. He has been and still is the best Reds' player with a stick in his hands.

My suggestion would be to move him up to third.

Once again, Dunn will hit. And when he does get on that roll the team will likely join in the fun. So kick back and smile. Good times for AD are ahead.

capndees
05-03-2008, 03:47 PM
You sir, and your logic, have no place in this forum.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Thats not very nice. People don't have to have the same opinion as you.

Can I go back to ORG now?

Jack Burton
05-03-2008, 04:43 PM
Cincinnati IMO can not pay large portions of their payroll to guys that are limited. They need decent, young, all-around players that can perform adquately in all areas of hitting and then spend the money on frontline pitching if they're to compete.

This is an excellent opinion and I agree 100&#37;, wish they would listen. LIMITED is a polite way of saying it.

Dracodave
05-03-2008, 08:38 PM
Cincinnati IMO can not pay large portions of their payroll to guys that are limited. They need decent, young, all-around players that can perform adquately in all areas of hitting and then spend the money on frontline pitching if they're to compete.

PEACE -

Newman

This is an excellent opinion and I agree 100%, wish they would listen. LIMITED is a polite way of saying it.

I agree as well but that issue is blamed on past GM's who couldnt/wouldnt pull out the "big trades" that could have netted us that return. Look at Arroyo, whom I thought should have been traded for younger better players (including a young starter) after his big year. I agree that should have been with Dunn as well. The problem is, no one really does that for us. We get crap trades for pitchers that do horrible for us. Kepp is a very good player that and can do it all but hit for power. Give me another pick up like Kepp and theres the top two in the order. Find a compliment to Bruce who's right handed (Kemp) and get the DEAL done. Its going to take that to build this team up, trades of all sorts and drafting those players..devolping them the right way.

Jack Burton
05-03-2008, 09:57 PM
Excellent job by Dunn in tonights game. 2 on 2 out, down by 1 in the 6th, here comes big Dunner...........STEEEEERIKEOUT.

thorn
05-03-2008, 10:01 PM
Excellent job by Dunn in tonights game. 2 on 2 out, down by 1 in the 6th, here comes big Dunner...........STEEEEERIKEOUT.

But somehow that would be Dusty's fault. :)

Dracodave
05-03-2008, 10:01 PM
Excellent job by Dunn in tonights game. 2 on 2 out, down by 1 in the 6th, here comes big Dunner...........STEEEEERIKEOUT.


Did he even move the bat...?