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OnBaseMachine
05-01-2008, 02:53 PM
Hanley Ramirez, hands down IMO. To me there is not a more underrated player in baseball than this guy. You don't hear much about him because of where he plays, but to me he's one of the top 5-10 hitters in baseball. Just some background info - He came up in the Boston organization and was rated as their top prospect in 2003, 2004, and 2005 by Baseball America. As an 18 year old he hit .341 with a .957 OPS in rookie ball in 2002. In late 2005 he was the key prospect sent to the Marlins in the Josh Beckett trade. The Marlins installed him as their starting shortstop in 2006 and all he did was hit .292/.353/.480 with 46 doubles, 17 homeruns, and 51 steals and was named the 2006 NL Rookie of the Year. Last year he elevated his numbers to MVP type numbers and hit .332/.386/.562 with 48 doubles, 29 homeruns, and 51 steals, narrowly missing a 30/50 season. Again this season he's off to an unbelievable start with the bat, hitting .327/.402/.602 with five doubles and eight homeruns already and nine steals, putting him pace for 46 homeruns and 52 stolen bases. He's a legit 40/40 man. This kid, IMO, is in the Albert Pujols/A-Rod/Miguel Cabrera class of hitters but you rarely see him mentioned. Considering the ballpark he plays in makes that much more impressive what he's doing.

He's not a great defensive short stop so he'll most likely move to third base sometime in the future but it doesn't matter because he's got the bat to play anywhere. With a new stadium about to be built, hopefully the Marlins can this kid around for a long time. With Ramirez, Hermida, and Cameron Maybin, they have some nice talent to build around.

Gainesville Red
05-01-2008, 03:00 PM
Hanley is great. The Rays are a little better right now, and are getting more attention, probably rightly so, but both Florida teams have plenty of exciting young talent.

Nothing new, the trick is somehow holding onto it.

Benihana
05-01-2008, 04:17 PM
I don't know if I'd call Hanley underrated at this point. I think most people consider him the second or third best position player in the game.

That said, it's pretty cool that the Red Sox don't regret that trade at all. We can only hope for the same result from Hamilton/Volquez.

dougdirt
05-01-2008, 04:30 PM
If he moved to 2B or 3B then yeah, he would be. However at SS he is a butcher defensively and it really hurts the offensive value his incredible bat brings.

M2
05-01-2008, 04:31 PM
I'm not sure how a recent ROY whom everybody fawns can be considered underrated.

Chase Utley, who lives in the shadow of the last two NL MVPs, and who's a far better fielder than Ramirez, is surely more underrated. Russ Martin, IMO, doesn't get nearly the pub he deserves. Nick Markakis qualifies as a mostly unknown quality player. Garrett Atkins is another wildly underappreciated player.

Cyclone792
05-01-2008, 04:35 PM
I'm not sure how a recent ROY whom everybody fawns can be considered underrated.

Chase Utley, who lives in the shadow of the last two NL MVPs, and who's a far better fielder than Ramirez, is surely more underrated. Russ Martin, IMO, doesn't get nearly the pub he deserves. Nick Markakis qualifies as a mostly unknown quality player. Garrett Atkins is another wildly underappreciated player.

Utley was the first guy who came to mind for me. What he has done since 2005 has been incredible. Then consider what he did last season and what he's doing so far this season ...

I hope Utley stays healthy the entire season, because if he does I have a feeling he's capable of putting together an historic season for a second sacker.

OnBaseMachine
05-01-2008, 05:01 PM
I'm not sure how a recent ROY whom everybody fawns can be considered underrated.

Chase Utley, who lives in the shadow of the last two NL MVPs, and who's a far better fielder than Ramirez, is surely more underrated. Russ Martin, IMO, doesn't get nearly the pub he deserves. Nick Markakis qualifies as a mostly unknown quality player. Garrett Atkins is another wildly underappreciated player.

I agree with ya on all those guys being underrated. I just think the average baseball fan probably doesn't know a whole lot about Ramirez because of who he plays for. If he were a Yankee or Cub he'd surely be getting talked up as a MVP candidate.

dabvu2498
05-01-2008, 05:01 PM
Someone who was very highly-rated but has gone back under the radar: Chipper Jones. (Dude can still hit!) Same with Todd Helton. Even their "bad" years are still very, very good.

Brad Hawpe is underrated. Ditto Nick Johnson. Michael Young?

I think Berkman is underrated. Reds fans know better because he kills our team.

OnBaseMachine
05-01-2008, 05:08 PM
Other underrated players besides the guys we've listed in this thread:

Mike Napoli
Pat Neshek
Edgar Renteria (future HOFer IMO)
Corey Hart
Nate McLouth

I see someone mentioned Berkman. I agree with that one too.

Highlifeman21
05-01-2008, 05:59 PM
Our very own Jeff Keppinger.
Jose Lopez (SEA)
Ryan Doumit (PIT)
David Murphy (TEX)
Luke Scott (BAL)
Shane Victorino (PHI)
John Maine (NYM)
Xavier Nady (PIT)
Conor Jackson (ARI)
James Loney (LAD)
Fred Lewis (SF)
Pat Burrell (PHI)
Joakim Soria (KC)
Yunel Escobar (ATL)
Milton Bradley (TEX)
Carlos Guillen (DET)
Mike Jacobs (FLA)

OnBaseMachine
05-01-2008, 06:01 PM
Great list highlife. Especially Doumit and John Maine.

lollipopcurve
05-01-2008, 06:02 PM
Victor Martinez

Falls City Beer
05-01-2008, 06:31 PM
Tim Hudson

blumj
05-01-2008, 08:39 PM
I agree with ya on all those guys being underrated. I just think the average baseball fan probably doesn't know a whole lot about Ramirez because of who he plays for. If he were a Yankee or Cub he'd surely be getting talked up as a MVP candidate.
He did finish top 10 in the MVP voting last season, but it's tough for someone to be a serious MVP candidate on a losing team. It's pretty funny for me to think of Hanley as being underrated, though, considering he'd been labeled a future superstar since he was 16. He's really just living up to expectations.

vaticanplum
05-01-2008, 09:29 PM
I realize we're hitting mostly on position players here, but Javier Vasquez had an ERA of 3.72 and an ERA+ of 127 -- with 197 H and 213 strikeouts -- last year. His ERA typically hovers in the high-3 to mid-4 range. He's in the eleventh season of his major league career and has pitched 200 innings every year since 2000 -- many of those years going up into the 220s and even 230. People barely know what team he plays for.

OnBaseMachine
05-01-2008, 09:34 PM
I realize we're hitting mostly on position players here, but Javier Vasquez had an ERA of 3.72 and an ERA+ of 127 -- with 197 H and 213 strikeouts -- last year. His ERA typically hovers in the high-3 to mid-4 range. He's in the eleventh season of his major league career and has pitched 200 innings every year since 2000 -- many of those years going up into the 220s and even 230. People barely know what team he plays for.

Another great one. I've always been a huge fan of Vazquez dating back to his days with the Expos. I always hoped he would become a Red one day.

*BaseClogger*
05-02-2008, 12:20 AM
Adrian Gonzalez--he plays in PETCO Park!!! :eek:

SteelSD
05-02-2008, 01:05 AM
Adrian Gonzalez--he plays in PETCO Park!!! :eek:

Wow. That's a really good selection. Based on the names I've seen in this thread, I'd have to second that. Gonzalez has been really good and really consistent while playing his home games in a cavern. Remove the 25-year old from Petco, and he's likely a .900+ OPS monster.

Ravenlord
05-02-2008, 01:13 AM
i'm in two yahoo fantasy leagues...the second i intentionally decided not to pick Hanley Ramirez or Chris Young (LHP), i ended up with both. . .

i picked Ramirez in the 6th round (14 team league) and actually got taunted for it by a couple of guys, and picked up Young in the 9th round. insanity to me that either one lasted the long. i also picked up Volquez with my final pick in the draft, but that's not underrated, that's just being a Reds fan.

*BaseClogger*
05-02-2008, 01:25 AM
Wow. That's a really good selection. Based on the names I've seen in this thread, I'd have to second that. Gonzalez has been really good and really consistent while playing his home games in a cavern. Remove the 25-year old from Petco, and he's likely a .900+ OPS monster.

He's just about the only productive hitter in the Padres lineup, as well. Imagine if he still called the Ballpark at Arlington home! :eek:

Ravenlord
05-02-2008, 01:35 AM
He's just about the only productive hitter in the Padres lineup, as well.

he'd be in trouble though with Brian Giles' mostly sad line of 260/358/433, otherwise he'd never see a man on base!

blumj
05-02-2008, 08:32 AM
i'm in two yahoo fantasy leagues...the second i intentionally decided not to pick Hanley Ramirez or Chris Young (LHP), i ended up with both. . .

i picked Ramirez in the 6th round (14 team league) and actually got taunted for it by a couple of guys, and picked up Young in the 9th round. insanity to me that either one lasted the long. i also picked up Volquez with my final pick in the draft, but that's not underrated, that's just being a Reds fan.
I don't play fantasy baseball, so I really don't know that much about it, but I would think that, if Hanley's lasting until the 6th round in your league, that's the league I'd want to be in.

bucksfan2
05-02-2008, 09:30 AM
Two guys who I thought of who some just don't realize how good they actually are. Chipper Jones and Manny Ramirez. These two are two of the most devistating hitters to come along in a long time. They have continued to hit year after year after year.

Falls City Beer
05-02-2008, 10:04 AM
Someone who was very highly-rated but has gone back under the radar: Chipper Jones. (Dude can still hit!) Same with Todd Helton. Even their "bad" years are still very, very good.

Brad Hawpe is underrated. Ditto Nick Johnson. Michael Young?

I think Berkman is underrated. Reds fans know better because he kills our team.

Berkman got a lot of press when he first emerged in the league, but since then he's basically vanished, despite being a top 10-15 in the NL.

Joseph
05-02-2008, 10:20 AM
I assume we're just going on guys who don't get a lot of press here....if thats so, then I'd point to our own Brandon Phillips as widely underrated on a national level.

Jermaine Dye has done nothing but produce for a long time and he's not overly pimped either.

Russ Martin as mentioned is likely the best young catcher in the game, and boy is he loved by LA fans.

Kelly Johnson in Atlanta is just a player, plain and simple. Not flashy or sexy, but just solid.

dabvu2498
05-02-2008, 10:40 AM
Berkman got a lot of press when he first emerged in the league, but since then he's basically vanished, despite being a top 10-15 in the NL.

Those were my thoughts as well, but upon further review, Berkman did finish 3rd in MVP voting in 2006, so... ???

Others:
Casey Kotchman is on his way toward being underrated.
Michael Cuddyer is already there.
Scot Shields
Kelvim Escobar
Todd Jones?
There are a whole lot of middle relievers that fall in the underrated category.

*BaseClogger*
05-02-2008, 10:44 AM
Two names that have popped up that I question: Brandon Phillips and Todd Jones? :confused:

blumj
05-02-2008, 10:44 AM
Jermaine Dye has done nothing but produce for a long time and he's not overly pimped either.
He's always seemed to get injured the minute anyone noticed how well he was playing. Seriously, it's practically uncanny how quickly the DL announcement follows the mention of him as an MVP candidate.

*BaseClogger*
05-02-2008, 10:46 AM
I don't play fantasy baseball, so I really don't know that much about it, but I would think that, if Hanley's lasting until the 6th round in your league, that's the league I'd want to be in.

Accurate assesment. Where do I sign up?

Falls City Beer
05-02-2008, 10:46 AM
Those were my thoughts as well, but upon further review, Berkman did finish 3rd in MVP voting in 2006, so... ???


The writers may recognize him, but they don't pimp him anymore. Probably because he plays for a pretty crummy Astros team.

blumj
05-02-2008, 10:46 AM
Casey Kotchman is on his way toward being underrated.

Best all-around 1st baseman in the AL.

Johnny Footstool
05-02-2008, 10:54 AM
Best all-around 1st baseman in the AL.

Kevin Youkilis has something to say about that...

blumj
05-02-2008, 11:00 AM
Kevin Youkilis has something to say about that...
Actually, Carlos Pena probably has even more to say about it, now that I've actually thought for more than a second.

dabvu2498
05-02-2008, 11:02 AM
Todd Jones? :confused:

Todd Jones has over 300 career saves. I wouldn't have guessed that. He's been pretty good the past 3 years, too, despite getting less pub than a couple of his fireballing Detroit penmates.

*BaseClogger*
05-02-2008, 11:06 AM
Does "best all-around" mean they are better than average at offense, defense, and base-running, but another player might be really really good at one part, specfically hitting, outweighing the other less important parts? Because Miguel Cabrera (is he now at 1B?) comes to mind. It's kinda like saying Orlando Cabrera is a better "all-around" SS than Hanley Ramirez because OCab can play defense...

*BaseClogger*
05-02-2008, 11:11 AM
Todd Jones has over 300 career saves. I wouldn't have guessed that. He's been pretty good the past 3 years, too, despite getting less pub than a couple of his fireballing Detroit penmates.

He's probably gotten less pub because he is a much worse pitcher. Saves are just an arbitrary stat that makes less effective pitchers considered more valuable IMO.

"Oh, you kinda suck: but in the ninth inning with a three run lead!? Heres an extra couple million dollars because you have 'saves'. Sure, we got a guy who is much better than you in the eigth inning with a three run lead, but he isn't gritty and doesn't have the 'mentality' or experience yet." I just don't get it.

Todd Jones' xFIP's in DET: 4.47, 4.62, 5.27...

dabvu2498
05-02-2008, 11:30 AM
Todd Jones' xFIP's in DET: 4.47, 4.62, 5.27...

ERA+ in DET: 116, 107, 174
WHIP in DET: 1.27, 1.48, 1.18

His 2005 with FLA was pretty near amazing.

And I know saves are terribly overrated, but I think it does say something positive about him that the "baseball men" trust him in the 9th inning.

*BaseClogger*
05-02-2008, 11:33 AM
WHIP in DET: 1.27, 1.48, 1.81

Are these meant to be good things?

EDIT: NM, 2008 it's 1.18 in a very small sample. Still, those ERA+'s are not that impressive for a closer...

dabvu2498
05-02-2008, 11:36 AM
Are these meant to be good things?

Typo on the last one... should have been 1.18.

Another thought... if the Tigers had counted on Zumaya or Rodney to be their closer, guess who would be their closer in 2008?

Todd Jones.

blumj
05-02-2008, 11:41 AM
Does "best all-around" mean they are better than average at offense, defense, and base-running, but another player might be really really good at one part, specfically hitting, outweighing the other less important parts? Because Miguel Cabrera (is he now at 1B?) comes to mind. It's kinda like saying Orlando Cabrera is a better "all-around" SS than Hanley Ramirez because OCab can play defense...
Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant by it. Pure opinion, though. I personally wouldn't go there with O-Cab/Hanley because the offensive gap is so big, and I'm not completely convinced that Hanley is as incapable of defensive competency at SS as Miguel Cabrera is anywhere.

Johnny Footstool
05-02-2008, 12:22 PM
Does "best all-around" mean they are better than average at offense, defense, and base-running, but another player might be really really good at one part, specfically hitting, outweighing the other less important parts? Because Miguel Cabrera (is he now at 1B?) comes to mind. It's kinda like saying Orlando Cabrera is a better "all-around" SS than Hanley Ramirez because OCab can play defense...

Cabrera is at 3B; Carlos Guillen is Detroit's 1B.

"Best all-around" means a guy who provides a lot of help in all aspects of the game. Better-than-average doesn't quite cut it.

Kotchman, Youkilis, and Conor Jackson all have high contact rates, good batting eyes, improving power, and stellar defensive skills. I think they'll all OPS over .900 this season, while playing excellent defense.

blumj
05-02-2008, 12:59 PM
Cabrera is at 3B; Carlos Guillen is Detroit's 1B.
They switched them, and it's an improvement.

blumj
05-02-2008, 01:28 PM
BTW, I wouldn't be surprised at all if BJ Upton was about 5 minutes away from becoming one of the very best players in MLB. But he's another one who was so widely recognized as having superstar potential that calling him underrated seems a little funny. And I think he's been terrific defensively since they moved him to CF.

Falls City Beer
05-02-2008, 10:08 PM
Tim Hudson

Though I should do it more often, I'm doing a rare quote of myself for awesome observation.

*BaseClogger*
05-02-2008, 10:29 PM
Though I should do it more often, I'm doing a rare quote of myself for awesome observation.

We really should quote ourselves more often...

cincrazy
05-02-2008, 10:32 PM
Robinson Cano. The guy's off to a slow start this year, but he can flat out hit, and gets overlooked in that Yankee lineup.

cincinnati chili
05-03-2008, 12:52 AM
I can't think of a better answer than Chase Utley is the best answer for a position player.

It's funny how these "underrated" things go in phases. For years, Craig Biggio was insanely underrated. Eventually the pendulum swung the other way.

I'm going to say the most underrated guy who hasn't been mentioned is Nick Johnson. I'd say he's a good bet to have an obp of around .400 and a slg around .900 this year, and is more than competent in the field. The other guys with numbers like that are rare, and to the extent they exist (Teixeira) are much better known and paid.

In the pitching department, I'd say John Lackey. 3 straight years of 209+ innings, just under a strikeout per inning, with eras between 3.01 and 3.56.

That's pretty good in the American league, facing the DH, even in a good pitcher's park.

vaticanplum
05-03-2008, 12:22 PM
I'm going to say the most underrated guy who hasn't been mentioned is Nick Johnson. I'd say he's a good bet to have an obp of around .400 and a slg around .900 this year, and is more than competent in the field. The other guys with numbers like that are rare, and to the extent they exist (Teixeira) are much better known and paid.

Somebody mentioned Nick Johnson. I noticed because I agree that he's very underrated.

blumj
05-03-2008, 01:46 PM
Somebody mentioned Nick Johnson. I noticed because I agree that he's very underrated.
He's a very good player when he plays, but he's always getting injured. How can you blame people for not really paying much attention to him when he keeps disappearing?

MWM
05-03-2008, 01:55 PM
I'm going to say the most underrated guy who hasn't been mentioned is Nick Johnson. I'd say he's a good bet to have an obp of around .400 and a slg around .900 this year, and is more than competent in the field.

Wow, if he slugs .900, he's the most under-ratedplayer in the history of the game. Hell, if he slugs that number, he's one of the best players in history. :evil:

GAC
05-03-2008, 02:32 PM
Tim Hudson

I'll wait and see on that. 4 of his 7 starts (3 of his 5 wins) have come against the hapless Reds and Nationals, two of the worst hitting/offensive teams currently in the NL. And in two starts he never made it out of the 3rd inning.

cincinnati chili
05-03-2008, 05:45 PM
Somebody mentioned Nick Johnson. I noticed because I agree that he's very underrated.

Least attentive poster: Cincinnati Chili. Not only was he mentioned once, but twice.



Wow, if he slugs .900, he's the most under-ratedplayer in the history of the game. Hell, if he slugs that number, he's one of the best players in history.


You're correct, smarmy pants. ;) I think you know what I meant. (.400 opb, .500 slg). Johnson is a lock for that when he's healthy. [insert you're comment, that he's only healthy every other year]

OnBaseMachine
05-19-2008, 03:58 PM
One guy I forgot to mention, and am surprised no one else did, is James Shields of the Rays. This is a guy who threw 215 innings of 3.85 ERA ball last year and posted a 36 BB/184 K ratio. This year's he following that up with a 3.05 ERA and 14 BB/45 K ratio in 59 innings. Shields is one of the better starting pitchers in the game and yet you don't hear a lot about him.

TRF
05-19-2008, 04:11 PM
One guy I forgot to mention, and am surprised no one else did, is James Shields of the Rays. This is a guy who threw 215 innings of 3.85 ERA ball last year and posted a 36 BB/184 K ratio. This year's he following that up with a 3.05 ERA and 14 BB/45 K ratio in 59 innings. Shields is one of the better starting pitchers in the game and yet you don't hear a lot about him.

You could make the claim that outside Kazmir, the entire Rays rotation is underrated.

WebScorpion
05-19-2008, 05:42 PM
How about Florida's Uggla... or Rafael Furcal out in LA, he's quietly putting together quite a season. :eek:

fearofpopvol1
05-19-2008, 06:10 PM
It's still early in the season and career numbers would say he's having a career year, but Nate McClouth is having a very nice season. Batting .306 with 12 HRs, 36 RBIs, 21 BB and almost a .400 OBP.

RedsManRick
05-19-2008, 06:47 PM
I think the phrase underrated implies that somebody has a track record and clearly deserves accolade -- thus the lack of accolade is conspicuous in its absence. I wouldn't put breakout players in that group.

I'd put Jeff Kent on my underrated team.

I'd also put Todd Helton on there. Helton's power disappeared, but he's averaged a .929 OPS the last 3 years despite not hitting more than 20 HR a year. He has a career OPS over 1.000. He's a great defender. Sure, he's not the MVP candidate he once was, but he's still an all-star caliber player and he's nearly forgotten.

Another one is Billy Wagner. Ask for the best relievers of the modern era and it's doubt he jumps to mind. But here are his numbers compared to the two active relievers who are both sure bets for the Hall of Fame:



Age G IP ERA FIP WHIP K/9 BB/9 HR/9 SV
Wagner 36 736 788.0 2.35 2.77 1.01 9.58 3.00 0.82 367
AL HOF 38 803 970.0 2.32 2.80 1.04 8.08 2.21 0.45 454
NL HOF 40 895 955.1 2.76 2.97 1.23 9.65 2.54 0.79 532

When asked for the best relievers in the game, do you think of Wagner as on the same level as Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman?

M2
05-19-2008, 07:00 PM
When asked for the best relievers in the game, do you think of Wagner as on the same level as Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman?

I do. I rank them in this order - Mo, Wagner, Hoffman. If it weren't for Mo, Wagner would have a claim on the title of best closer ever.

Cedric
05-19-2008, 07:28 PM
Billy Wagner? Are you going to say Albert Pujols next?

Cyclone792
05-19-2008, 07:29 PM
Billy Wagner? Are you going to say Albert Pujols next?

Maybe. Where do you think the masses would place Pujols in a list of all-time first sackers?

Red in Chicago
05-19-2008, 07:45 PM
Maybe. Where do you think the masses would place Pujols in a list of all-time first sackers?

you are the man with stats in my book, so i'd love to get your opinion. however, he's only played four full seasons at first base, right?

Highlifeman21
05-19-2008, 08:13 PM
Maybe. Where do you think the masses would place Pujols in a list of all-time first sackers?

What's the minimum games required at the first sack?

As an aside, Ernie Banks didn't play SS after 1961. From 1962 until he was done after 1971, Banks played 1252 @ 1B. Prior to 1962, Banks played 1125 games @ SS, which is almost 1 full season less than he played @ 1B, yet SS is the first position you think about concerning Ernie Banks, right?

As for all-time first sackers, where do you put Pujols compared to Gehrig, Foxx, Anson, Greenberg, or Sisler? Some might get crazy and put McGwire in a top 5 all time.

Here's a random smattering of guys who played a buttload of games during their respective careers (not previously listed), with the majority of those games being played at the first sack.

Eddie Murray
Rafael Palmeiro
George Brett (yeah, he played a bunch on the other corner, too)
Tony Perez
Jake Beckley
Bill Buckner
Rod Carew
Fred McGriff
Julio Franco


So, where do these guys stack up?

Where does Pujols fit in this list, and a more comprehensive all-time list?

Is Pujols truly underrated now, b/c we don't know his complete body of work yet, and can't compare that to other career bodies of work?

I don't think Pujols is one bit underrated, as we know what he is in the current context, but perhaps he is slightly underrated on an all-time level. But only slightly. He's something special, and I think the unwashed masses know that.

I think to truly be underrated, the unwashed masses have to not know who you are, and what you've done.

Cyclone792
05-19-2008, 09:30 PM
Pujols has seven full seasons. If I pulled out the "seven peak" seasons from a list of all-time great first sackers and compared those to Pujols, this would be my list (and since we're thinking in terms of seven, I'll go with my top seven) ...

Lou Gehrig
Albert Pujols
Jimmie Foxx
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Willie McCovey
Tie: Johnny Mize and Hank Greenberg

IMO, Pujols' first seven seasons have been greater than the best seven seasons put up by Foxx, Bagwell, Thomas, McCovey, Mize, Greenberg, and any other first baseman except for Lou Gehrig. That's pretty impressive.

Highlifeman21
05-19-2008, 10:22 PM
Pujols has seven full seasons. If I pulled out the "seven peak" seasons from a list of all-time great first sackers and compared those to Pujols, this would be my list (and since we're thinking in terms of seven, I'll go with my top seven) ...

Lou Gehrig
Albert Pujols
Jimmie Foxx
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Willie McCovey
Tie: Johnny Mize and Hank Greenberg

IMO, Pujols' first seven seasons have been greater than the best seven seasons put up by Foxx, Bagwell, Thomas, McCovey, Mize, Greenberg, and any other first baseman except for Lou Gehrig. That's pretty impressive.

No Cap Anson? Really?

RedsManRick
05-19-2008, 10:26 PM
Billy Wagner? Are you going to say Albert Pujols next?

Underrated doesn't mean you can't be good -- or even great -- just that people don't think as highly of you as they should. I bet most people would not put Wagner in the Hall of the Fame if they didn't have his stats in front of them.

WMR
05-19-2008, 10:28 PM
Pujols has seven full seasons. If I pulled out the "seven peak" seasons from a list of all-time great first sackers and compared those to Pujols, this would be my list (and since we're thinking in terms of seven, I'll go with my top seven) ...

Lou Gehrig
Albert Pujols
Jimmie Foxx
Jeff Bagwell
Frank Thomas
Willie McCovey
Tie: Johnny Mize and Hank Greenberg

IMO, Pujols' first seven seasons have been greater than the best seven seasons put up by Foxx, Bagwell, Thomas, McCovey, Mize, Greenberg, and any other first baseman except for Lou Gehrig. That's pretty impressive.

Is that fully adjusted for era played?

Cyclone792
05-19-2008, 10:34 PM
Is that fully adjusted for era played?

Yup, adjusted for both era and park.

RedEye
05-20-2008, 01:14 AM
My all-underrated squad:

C: Russell Martin
1B: Nick Johnson
2B: Dan Uggla
SS: Edgar Renteria
3B: Chipper Jones
OF: Corey Hart
OF: Brad Hawpe
OF: Josh Willingham
DH: Billy Butler
P: Aaron Harang
P: Javier Vazquez
P: Tim Hudson
P: Dustin McGowan
P: Mark Buehrle
RP: Matt Capps
RP: Takashi Saito

Blitz Dorsey
05-20-2008, 02:13 AM
In addition to Harang, Roy Halladay is a starting pitcher that doesn't get quite enough respect IMO. He sure does from the Blue Jays (he has a fat contract) but he's not known around the game as one of the great ones. But he consistently is. I think the fact that he doesn't strike out many batters hurts him in the eyes of fans, media, whatever. And the fact that he plays in Toronto and they are never going to make the playoffs in that tough division.

Harang and Halladay are two of the 10 best starting pitchers in the game.

reds44
05-20-2008, 02:14 AM
My all-underrated squad:

C: Russell Martin
1B: Nick Johnson
2B: Dan Uggla
SS: Edgar Renteria
3B: Chipper Jones
OF: Corey Hart
OF: Brad Hawpe
OF: Josh Willingham
DH: Billy Butler
P: Aaron Harang
P: Javier Vazquez
P: Tim Hudson
P: Dustin McGowan
P: Mark Buehrle
RP: Matt Capps
RP: Takashi Saito
Dan Uggla was an all-star last year in his 2nd season.

Not underrated.

Patrick Bateman
05-20-2008, 03:33 AM
Dan Uggla was an all-star last year in his 2nd season.

Not underrated.

That actually adds fuel to the overrated fire. With poor defensive ability and on base problems, you have a guy getting lots of pub because of his powerful bat. WHhich is quite nice coming out of 2B, but a lot of deficiencies in that game take a lot out of the positives.

*BaseClogger*
05-20-2008, 10:56 AM
Josh Willingham: good call... :thumbup:

vaticanplum
05-20-2008, 11:31 AM
In addition to Harang, Roy Halladay is a starting pitcher that doesn't get quite enough respect IMO. He sure does from the Blue Jays (he has a fat contract) but he's not known around the game as one of the great ones. But he consistently is. I think the fact that he doesn't strike out many batters hurts him in the eyes of fans, media, whatever. And the fact that he plays in Toronto and they are never going to make the playoffs in that tough division.

Harang and Halladay are two of the 10 best starting pitchers in the game.

I think Halladay was at the top of everybody's list until he got hurt. He was out for a good period of time and for some reason his stock seemed to take a hard hit from that...the signing probably helped (hurt) too as it quieted any where-will-he-go rumors.

Along those same lines, Chris Carpenter has been all but forgotten lately. And that dude knows how to pitch.

edit: ok, Halladay started 31 games last year. Clearly I need coffee. What in the world am I thinking of? I guess it was just 04-05 that he was hurt.

This would give credence to the theory that Halladay is underrated.

Chip R
05-20-2008, 11:53 AM
Another one is Billy Wagner. Ask for the best relievers of the modern era and it's doubt he jumps to mind. But here are his numbers compared to the two active relievers who are both sure bets for the Hall of Fame:

When asked for the best relievers in the game, do you think of Wagner as on the same level as Mariano Rivera and Trevor Hoffman?


Funny you mention Wagner. A couple of weeks ago, Kitty and I were at the Reds Astros game and they had some trivia question about who had X number of saves and played for the Astros (One of the answers was John Franco and I got it because I remembered him playing for then at the tail end of his career. Kitty about smacked me when she found out I was right. ;) ) Neither of us thought of Wagner. Kitty knew him but forgot his name. So I guess you could make a case for him being underrated although I'm with M2 and think he's one of the elite closers.

I went to a game last year in Shea and saw both Wagner and Hoffman blow saves. How often do you have a game where two elite closers blow a save?

RedEye
05-20-2008, 01:04 PM
Dan Uggla was an all-star last year in his 2nd season.

Not underrated.

Point taken. I guess I just have a new appreciation for Uggla now that I live in Florida and he is going INSANE at the plate. I should replace him with the player I originally had on my list:

2B Aaron Hill

RedEye
05-20-2008, 01:05 PM
Dan Uggla was an all-star last year in his 2nd season.

Not underrated.

Although, to be fair, Chipper has been on quite a few All-Star teams too... and I still think he should be on the underrated team.

Jpup
05-20-2008, 02:16 PM
Adam Dunn is very under rated by the national audience and by 90% of the local audience.

vaticanplum
05-20-2008, 03:04 PM
Adam Dunn is very under rated by the national audience and by 90% of the local audience.

In my limited experience, Dunn is not underrated at least among fans. Most of my friends who follow other teams would kill to have him.

RedEye
05-21-2008, 12:50 AM
In my limited experience, Dunn is not underrated at least among fans. Most of my friends who follow other teams would kill to have him.

He certainly doesn't have the national exposure though. He made what, one All-Star team? For the mainstream baseball fan and a lot of this site, he is vastly underrated because of has lack of batting average and RBIs. Anyone else here think of that? :D

Gainesville Red
05-21-2008, 01:56 AM
I like Rios and Markakis. I'm not sure how underrated they are, but you don't hear a lot about them. I also like Adrian Gonzalez, don't hear much about him either.