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M2
05-01-2008, 09:45 PM
So the Reds have problems. Nothing new there.

Everyone feel free to pick the first one to fix.

My selection is to settle the leadoff spot in the lineup by sticking Adam Dunn there. I hear he's a frequent visitor to the land of Onbasylvania. Patterson can drop to the #7 slot.

reds44
05-01-2008, 09:47 PM
The easiest solution is to stop batting your three leading OPS'ers 6-7-8.

Highlifeman21
05-01-2008, 09:59 PM
So the Reds have problems. Nothing new there.

Everyone feel free to pick the first one to fix.

My selection is to settle the leadoff spot in the lineup by sticking Adam Dunn there. I hear he's a frequent visitor to the land of Onbasylvania. Patterson can drop to the #7 slot.

I'm gonna piggyback off your suggestion, sorta.

Given that Adam Dunn is now our leadoff hitter, I'm making a symbiotic move.

1. Take away every fielding glove Adam Dunn owns except his firstbaseman's mitt.

2. Trade Joey Votto and whatever else it takes for a true SP to compliment Aaron Harang.

Cooper
05-01-2008, 09:59 PM
Have John Cueto be your 5th starter. He's the youngest and his body hasn't filled out...he needs to be skipped once in a while even if he is going well. When breaking in pitchers our motto needs to be "what would Boston do?".

Will M
05-01-2008, 09:59 PM
Call up Bruce to play CF. Patterson becomes a reserve/late inning defensive replacement ( with Bruce moving to RF ).

VR
05-01-2008, 10:02 PM
Trade Griff or Adam immediately. One move, many problems solved.

Caveat Emperor
05-01-2008, 10:02 PM
Put Ryan Freel in CF and hit him leadoff until his bat cools down.

TRF
05-01-2008, 10:03 PM
Leadoff has been covered, so I'll take the #3-4 spots in the lineup. #3 should be EE, and 4 Votto. Now I'd prefer Kepp at #1, and Dunn at #2, but I'm only fixing #3 & 4. :)

Spring~Fields
05-01-2008, 10:45 PM
1A. Hired Jocketty to get the deals done.

2009 Position Players
1. Keppinger 3B
2. Orlando Hudson 2B gold glove FA signing for 2009,
3. Encarcion 1B - better fielding 1B, reduced throwing errors
4. Votto LF - better mobility, better defense
5. Bruce CF - rookie of the year ;) called up May 2008
6. Kemp RF - Trading Arroyo, Bray, Coffee, Lehr - for Kemp June 2008
7. Phillips SS - Prep/evaluate at ss during 2008
8. Bako/Ross

Solutions Implemented:
Solved the infield defense, Hudson, Phillips, Keppinger, Encarcion
Solved outfield defense with Bruce, Kemp, Votto
Solved the imbalance of left handed hitters
Improved teams chances against LH pitching.
Madeup the lost offensive production of Dunn/Griffey salary dump with Bruce, Votto, Kemp
Gonazlez replaces Castro role bench backup 3B, SS, Freel utility player
Patterson, Valentin, Hatteberg, Hopper, Hairston - contracts are up non tendered,
Took temptation out of Dusty's hands.
Cheaper, faster, more power, more balanced offense, younger, better defense
Improved pitching by improving the defense and increasing run support
Saved investors money making them happy, encouraging them to spend more freely in the future.
Saved most of the minor league prospects in tact

2009 Starters
Harang
Volquez
Cueto
Bailey Post all-star break callup 2008
Thompson

Hired Steel - consultant to run RS vs RA analysis on the 2009 Position players in the event that modifications are needed.

fearofpopvol1
05-01-2008, 10:45 PM
Promote Jay Bruce.

I was definitely in the camp for starting him off in AAA and was glad at the CPat signing (still am actually as he is still a very solid bench player to have). He took starting in Louisville with a great attitude and has produced handsomely, proving that his numbers towards the end of last season were not a fluke. I feel confident the kid is ready now.

However, I think more than anything, this team needs a spark. Some excitement. I think Jay Bruce not only provides that, but also provides a lot of other things: a big bat, speed, defense, sense of humor etc. I would let him play in CF.

mth123
05-01-2008, 10:46 PM
I'll bet I'm the only one with this plan.

Trade Hatte for whatever, make Griffey the LHPH and spot OFer who gets 250 ABs. Put Jay Bruce in RF and move to the next era. Watch the positive effect on run prevention and the staff as a whole. It will be bigger than you think.

Trade some mid-level minor leaguers (Maloney, Valaika, Viola, Francisco, etc.) for some rotation or bullpen help.

Leave Bailey in AAA all year no matter what.

Keppinger SS
Dunn LF
Bruce RF
EdE 3B
Votto 1B
Phillips 2B
Patterson/Freel CF
Catcher.

edabbs44
05-01-2008, 11:25 PM
I'd choose to fix the mentality of the FO and face reality. This team is better off planning 2 years down the road rather than trying to win now.

Falls City Beer
05-01-2008, 11:26 PM
I'd choose to fix the mentality of the FO and face reality. This team is better off planning 2 years down the road rather than trying to win now.

If I had to wager, I think even a very quick worker like Jocketty realizes that. This team is not in the shape most folks would have you believe. It's still in very rough shape, and it appears the Arroyo/Harang might go by the wayside in the process.

edabbs44
05-01-2008, 11:28 PM
If I had to wager, I think even a very quick worker like Jocketty realizes that. This team is not in the shape most folks would have you believe. It's still in very rough shape, and it appears the Arroyo/Harang might go by the wayside in the process.

Yeah, but Bob seems like he is one of the driving forces behind the delusion.

Caveat Emperor
05-02-2008, 12:40 AM
I'd choose to fix the mentality of the FO and face reality. This team is better off planning 2 years down the road rather than trying to win now.

The more tickets Jocketty sells now, the more money he'll have to spend.

That was a key component of the plan in St. Louis. Trouble is, he's fresh out of Mark McGwires to trade for.

WVRedsFan
05-02-2008, 01:03 AM
I loathe everything Ryan Freel is as a baseball player. That's no secret, but I agree with CE on batting Freel leadoff and playing him somewhere until he cools off. Which might be tomorrow.

I might bat Dunn second with Encarnacion third. Griffey fourth and Votto fifth. Or maybe Votto fourth and Griffey fifth. I think I'd follow with Phillips, Keppinger, Bako (Ross) and the pitcher. How flawed is that? My thinking is Dunn would have plenty of protection behind him and Phillips and Keppinger could give us some punch (well, Phillips anyway) in the bottom of the order.

I know what you're thinking. I must be Bob Boone in disguise. :)

REDREAD
05-02-2008, 01:13 AM
So the Reds have problems. Nothing new there.

Everyone feel free to pick the first one to fix.

My selection is to settle the leadoff spot in the lineup by sticking Adam Dunn there. I hear he's a frequent visitor to the land of Onbasylvania. Patterson can drop to the #7 slot.


The Reds kind of have the same "problem" with Dunn as Davey Johnson said they had with Larkin. Johnson said that Larkin was their best #1, #2, and #3 hitter, and he could only put him in one of those slots.

I agree, hitting Dunn #5 is definitely wrong, he needs to be somewhere between 1-3. He also needs the team's second best hitter behind him, which is probably Jr, although maybe it's EdE. I really don't like Phillips hitting after Dunn.

If I was Walt today, here the top of my agenda;

1. Talk to Dunn. See if he wants to come back and if we can meet his price.
Get this done ASAP. If Dunn wants to leave, try to negotiate an amicable seperation by shopping him to the teams he wants to go. If Dunn wants to stay, then don't alienate him by shopping him.

2. Work on clearing as much dead weight as possible. Freel is overpaid, not a very smart ballplayer and a malcontent. Try to dump him, since he's on the books for next year. I realize that's a tough (maybe impossible) task. Hat might be movable. Maybe Valentine is. Weathers is probably impossible to move.

3. Decide on Jr.. If Dunn and/or Jr aren't coming back next year, start looking for an OF for 2009.

REDREAD
05-02-2008, 01:17 AM
Yeah, but Bob seems like he is one of the driving forces behind the delusion.


It's hard to say. Bob might be satisfied with incremental progress each year.
Bob was happy as a clam in 2006.

Not trying to beat a dead horse, but Bob might be happy with 78-80 wins next season after the disaster this season is going to be. Improving this team to that level is doable.
Of course, this is pure speculation, I haven't talked to Bob personally.

Chip R
05-02-2008, 01:35 AM
So the Reds have problems. Nothing new there.

Everyone feel free to pick the first one to fix.

My selection is to settle the leadoff spot in the lineup by sticking Adam Dunn there. I hear he's a frequent visitor to the land of Onbasylvania. Patterson can drop to the #7 slot.


I don't think Dunn would be a very good CFer. ;)

AmarilloRed
05-02-2008, 01:43 AM
Edwin seems to be turning out to be our right handed power bat. Have him hit between Griffey and Dunn in the lineup; he struggled initially hitting cleanup but I would give him another chance.

mth123
05-02-2008, 05:33 AM
The more tickets Jocketty sells now, the more money he'll have to spend.

That was a key component of the plan in St. Louis. Trouble is, he's fresh out of Mark McGwires to trade for.

This is absolutely true. The McGwire deal and the HR fever that followed fueled everything else that WJ did in St. Louis. It made baseball fashionable with a fanbase that was always there and looking for an excuse to make the Cards game the place to be again. That provided lots of money to work with. To his credit, WJ assembled 5 teams that won 90+ games during his tenure and an 83 game winner that won the World Series. That certainly helped keep the fad from passing.

One only need look at the northside of Chicago to see a situation were a team has been fashionable for years and provided tons for revenue but management hasn't able to capitalize (this could be the year???). I don't think that WJ is the end all be all, but he should get some credit for capitalizing on his windfall IMO. Just not convinced he can repeat it here and not sure where that windfall will come from unless its Cast's pocket.

Falls City Beer
05-02-2008, 10:18 AM
Have John Cueto be your 5th starter. He's the youngest and his body hasn't filled out...he needs to be skipped once in a while even if he is going well. When breaking in pitchers our motto needs to be "what would Boston do?".

Cooper for GM.

This is exactly what I'd do--well I'd have started him in the pen, but that ship has sailed.

And to borrow a suggestion from gm (the poster), flip Edwin while his stock is high. Aim for a cuspy starter in return (a John Maine-ish guy not getting a fair shake, for instance).

TRF
05-02-2008, 10:26 AM
Here is the next thing I do, I throw a lot of money and perks at Mario Soto. I mean a LOT!

I tell Mario we are going to set him up with a house in Cincinnati. I tell him we'll bring his entire family up if he wants. I have him work with the Reds starters during homestands, and the minor leaguers (whichever team is closest) when the Reds are on the road. I pay him a ridiculous salary. I subsidize his academy in the DR, and pay top dollar for any instructors Mario chooses. I kick the door down in the DR in essence and MAKE it the Reds territory.

Spring~Fields
05-02-2008, 12:09 PM
2008 until Jocketty can make some moves.
Keppinger .350 OBP .766 OPS
Dunn .391 OBP .791 OPS
Encarcion .564 SLG .938 OPS
Votto .538 SLG .880 OPS
Phillips .509 SLG .837 OPS
Griffey .336 OBP .752 OPS
Freel .351 OBP .728 OPS
Bako .388 OBP .507 OPS

I would modify TRF's idea to include at the mlb level a pitching coaches staff
A. Head pitching coach
B. Bullpen coach
C. Pitching specialist tech
D. Pitching specialist tech

Similar to what they do in football, the techs watch every pitcher looking for problem areas, right areas, study films, make and work with recommendations to help the head pitching coach and the pitchers, correct bad habits, correct mechanics, etc.

RedsManRick
05-02-2008, 12:13 PM
I agree with the McGwire comments. Regardless of whether it's trades or something else, if Jocketty wants to follow his St Louis path, he needs to do something to rev up the fan base. Otherwise, he's not going to get the 40% payroll increase he got in St Louis -- and notice how great those mid 90's Cards teams were under Jocketty prior to the McGwire induced payroll infusion - which manifested itself in trades for, and contracts for Edmonds and Rolen.

OnBaseMachine
05-02-2008, 12:15 PM
Want to make a big splash? Sign Mark Teixeira in the offseason and move Joey Votto to LF.

pahster
05-02-2008, 12:28 PM
Want to make a big splash? Sign Mark Teixeira in the offseason and move Joey Votto to LF.

Want.

Benihana
05-02-2008, 12:53 PM
Want to make a big splash? Sign Mark Teixeira in the offseason and move Joey Votto to LF.

Yep. I like it.

Keppinger SS
Votto LF
Bruce RF
Teixeira 1B
Encarnacion 3B
Phillips 2B
Bako C
Harang/Volquez/Cueto/Bailey/Thompson P
Patterson/Stubbs CF

:eek:

registerthis
05-02-2008, 01:10 PM
Can Votto even play LF?

Chip R
05-02-2008, 01:12 PM
Can Votto even play LF?


He played some last year.

BRM
05-02-2008, 01:12 PM
Can Votto even play LF?

He played some LF last year in Louisville. I don't know how well he played there though.

Benihana
05-02-2008, 01:22 PM
He played some LF last year in Louisville. I don't know how well he played there though.

He certainly couldn't be much worse than Dunn. And as much as I said I'd like to see Dunn stay, I'd rather have Teixeira's switch-hitting bat in the lineup than Dunn's. However I'd be wary of how much we'd have to overpay in order to get Tex to sign here.

RedsManRick
05-02-2008, 01:25 PM
Teixeira is likely to get a contract somewhere in the 7/120 range by somebody. Not sure if I'd want that to be us, but if there is any FA worth big money, he's it.

flyer85
05-02-2008, 01:28 PM
He played some LF last year in Louisville. I don't know how well he played there though.all we've heard is complaints about how bad the defense is in LF and RF and now some want to put a 1B in LF. Oy vey.

KronoRed
05-02-2008, 01:29 PM
Big long deals like that more often then not end up a noose on a team like the Reds..no thanks.

flyer85
05-02-2008, 01:29 PM
Teixeira is likely to get a contract somewhere in the 7/120 range by somebody. Not sure if I'd want that to be us, but if there is any FA worth big money, he's it.I hope the Reds have learned from the Jr ordeal (that long contracts 5+ years come with a huge risk and are best avoided in all situations).

bucksfan2
05-02-2008, 02:23 PM
Quick solution.
Trade Freel and Belisle to NY for Santana and Beltran + Cash.

IMO the Reds won't have a solution to the current ballclub until the change the makeup of the club. Until either or both of Jr and Dunn are gone then you will continue to see a very streaky Reds team. You CAN'T get the limited production out of the 3-4-5 holes that the reds are. I have long been a supporter of both Jr and Dunn but think the time has come to split ways with them.

Spring~Fields
05-02-2008, 02:45 PM
He played some LF last year in Louisville. I don't know how well he played there though.
Votto Minor League
LF 40 70 4 3 3 .961

The Reds have had a first basemen in left field for years now, I mean a DH in left field for years now.

Spring~Fields
05-02-2008, 02:49 PM
Big long deals like that more often then not end up a noose on a team like the Reds..no thanks.

Ties up too high of a percentage of the payroll for a team budgeted like the Reds.

Benihana
05-02-2008, 03:16 PM
Ties up too high of a percentage of the payroll for a team budgeted like the Reds.

Here's where I don't get it, once again.

What does that mean? What is "a team budgeted like the Reds"? If Castellini is even half serious when he says he came here to compete, he realizes that to do so means spending more money than they have in the past. So I don't think it's fair to compare the Reds future budget to the budget of Carl Lindners past.

The Cardinals (of whom Castellini and Jocketty are both obviously modeling this franchise) had guys like Rolen, Pujols, McGwire etc. who all had what would be today's equivalent of an $100 million deal. I don't think it's out of line to expect Castellini to eventually sign up for at least one of those (and expand the budget accordingly) if he ever expects this team to look anything like the Cardinals.

KronoRed
05-02-2008, 03:18 PM
Bob isn't going to lose money on the Reds indefinitely and 20mill a year for 7 years would be too much.

Benihana
05-02-2008, 03:20 PM
Bob isn't going to lose money on the Reds indefinitely and 20mill a year for 7 years would be too much.

Then he needs to bring Wayne Krivsky back. Have some direction. Either try to win like Twins (Krivsky) without the big market contracts, or try to win like the Cardinals (Jocketty) with them. But straddling the fence is only going to lead to a sore groin.

Spring~Fields
05-02-2008, 03:30 PM
Here's where I don't get it, once again.

What does that mean? What is "a team budgeted like the Reds"? If Castellini is even half serious when he says he came here to compete, he realizes that to do so means spending more money than they have in the past. So I don't think it's fair to compare the Reds future budget to the budget of Carl Lindners past.

The Cardinals (of whom Castellini and Jocketty are both obviously modeling this franchise) had guys like Rolen, Pujols, McGwire etc. who all had what would be today's equivalent of an $100 million deal. I don't think it's out of line to expect Castellini to eventually sign up for at least one of those (and expand the budget accordingly) if he ever expects this team to look anything like the Cardinals.

The budget of a business comes from a projection based upon past revenues and expenses (2007 revenues and expense projected to determine the 2008 budgets for each department). The budget becomes the organizations plan.

We loosely use the term "budget" on the board here to mean what has been allowed for the payroll for the 25 man roster. Within the organizations budget there is usually some room for flexibility because revenues and expense are not fixed and are flexible, of course some expenses are fixed, not all, and there is room for player payroll expenses to fluctuate up and down within a budgets period.

Assuming that the Reds projected that they can afford a 25 man roster payroll of 80 million they would have to work within those parameters based upon their revenues and expenses that the team generates. So if you tie up 15 - 20 % of the budget in one player and another, you have two players of the 25 taking up 30-40% of the entire payroll budgeted, while leaving little for having other quality players that you need in the competitive market. So they end up filling the team with chaff and fodder to make ends meet within the budget.

Castellini needs higher revenues with the Reds market that is limited compared to other teams in different demographics. The Reds during the BRM days only topped out at 2.6 million in attendance, I am not sure that they would draw a lot more than that now with an all-star team.

Keep in mind that team can only generate x amount of revenues regardless of what they do there in Cincinnati, the investors can't just pump in dollars and work at a loss, it just doesn't work like that in business.

Castellini as a fiduciary agent of the Reds has a legal responsibility to the group of investors to manage the resources, he can’t just willy-nilly toss their money to the wind. Castellini and the officers of the organization has to work or operate within certain parameters or he can subject himself to certain litigation and would be held accountable.

On the operations side there is a lot more dollars that go into the operations than just the 25 man roster and if you knew or could read the entire financials you would see that Castellini and company are already paying a lot more, that is putting a lot more money into the budget of the operations that include all player salaries etc.

What you want to know as a fan is, just what is the maximum that the Reds organization can top out at with the 25 man roster but even that amount is volatile and flexible dependent upon revenues generated off set by expenses fixed, and projected.

Benihana
05-02-2008, 03:38 PM
The budget of a business comes from a projection based upon past revenues and expenses (2007 revenues and expense projected to determine the 2008 budgets for each department). The budget becomes the organizations plan.

We loosely use the term "budget" on the board here to mean what has been allowed for the payroll for the 25 man roster. Within the organizations budget there is usually some room for flexibility because revenues and expense are not fixed and are flexible, of course some expenses are fixed, not all, and there is room for player payroll expenses to fluctuate up and down within a budgets period.

Assuming that the Reds projected that they can afford a 25 man roster payroll of 80 million they would have to work within those parameters based upon their revenues and expenses that the team generates. So if you tie up 15 - 20 % of the budget in one player and another, you have two players of the 25 taking up 30-40% of the entire payroll budgeted, while leaving little for having other quality players that you need in the competitive market. So they end up filling the team with chaff and fodder to make ends meet within the budget.

Castellini needs higher revenues with the Reds market that is limited compared to other teams in different demographics. The Reds during the BRM days only topped out at 2.6 million in attendance, I am not sure that they would draw a lot more than that now with an all-star team.

Keep in mind that team can only generate x amount of revenues regardless of what they do there in Cincinnati, the investors can't just pump in dollars and work at a loss, it just doesn't work like that in business.

Thanks, I think I know a thing or two about business.

All I'm saying is don't neccessarily assume the Reds payroll for the next three or four years will be what it was over the past three or four years with Carl Lindner and John Allen. Already this season we've seen the biggest free agent signing in Reds history, the highest paid manager in Reds history, and the highest single season salary for a player in Reds history. Stay tuned and we might see a lot more financial milestones broken. I'm not saying we're going to sign Mark Teixiera, CC Sabathia, or anyone of the sort neccessarily, I'm just sick of hearing about budget constraints within the realm of the Lindner/Allen years. If Jr. and Dunn are coming off the payroll, that frees up a LOT of room to make a big splash with a new player. And Teixiera is the best fit to be that player IMO.

bucksfan2
05-02-2008, 03:47 PM
Here's where I don't get it, once again.

What does that mean? What is "a team budgeted like the Reds"? If Castellini is even half serious when he says he came here to compete, he realizes that to do so means spending more money than they have in the past. So I don't think it's fair to compare the Reds future budget to the budget of Carl Lindners past.

The Cardinals (of whom Castellini and Jocketty are both obviously modeling this franchise) had guys like Rolen, Pujols, McGwire etc. who all had what would be today's equivalent of an $100 million deal. I don't think it's out of line to expect Castellini to eventually sign up for at least one of those (and expand the budget accordingly) if he ever expects this team to look anything like the Cardinals.

I don't like to use the term percentage of the budget. I really think the key to being a FA player is financial flexability. Look at next years potental roster. They could have Cueto, Volquez, Bailey, Votto, Bruce, Encarnacion, Burton, and Keppinger all making very little in terms of production compared to an Arroyo, Freel, etc. The key to any organization is to put the best 25 man roster together that fits within your financial objectives. In all likelihood next year the reds could have starting 8 in which one player makes more than the entire other 7.

The key to free agency and building a successful winning team is signing the players you want to keep early and having the financially flexability to bring in a big FA if need be. If the Reds don't plan on keeping Dunn and Griffey, Texeria is well within the budget. Whether or not that is a smart financial deal is another thing.

Falls City Beer
05-02-2008, 03:48 PM
Thanks, I think I know a thing or two about business.

All I'm saying is don't neccessarily assume the Reds payroll for the next three or four years will be what it was over the past three or four years with Carl Lindner and John Allen. Already this season we've seen the biggest free agent signing in Reds history, the highest paid manager in Reds history, and the highest single season salary for a player in Reds history. Stay tuned and we might see a lot more financial milestones broken. I'm not saying we're going to sign Mark Teixiera, CC Sabathia, or anyone of the sort neccessarily, I'm just sick of hearing about budget constraints within the realm of the Lindner/Allen years. If Jr. and Dunn are coming off the payroll, that frees up a LOT of room to make a big splash with a new player. And Teixiera is the best fit to be that player IMO.


Attendance has been down this year and last, hasn't it? I imagine something will have to change in that department before we see a huge payroll spike--something we haven't seen so far from Cast.

Spring~Fields
05-02-2008, 04:09 PM
Thanks, I think I know a thing or two about business.

You asked the following and I answered that specifically.

What does that mean? What is "a team budgeted like the Reds"? If Castellini is even half serious when he says he came here to compete, he realizes that to do so means spending more money than they have in the past


All I'm saying is don't neccessarily assume the Reds payroll for the next three or four years will be what it was over the past three or four years with Carl Lindner and John Allen.

If you had read what I wrote and explained to you and if you had understood it you would know that I don't "assume" regarding the Reds payroll.

Today's budget, this years budget for the 25 man roster has nothing, nothing to do with the next three to four fiscal years budgets. Each new year a new budget is proposed based on the previous years revenues and expenses and other historical data related to the financials of the organization. Carl Lindner and John Allen are past fiscal years and have nothing to do with 2008, though Lindner is still a powerful investor in the current Reds I believe.



Already this season we've seen the biggest free agent signing in Reds history, the highest paid manager in Reds history, and the highest single season salary for a player in Reds history.

So ? I already told you that there is flexibility within the budget. Just because they spend largely on one player does not mean that the organization can afford a trend of upward and continued spending like that on several players. They might have done that factoring in that Griffey or Dunn or both will be coming off their books, reducing expenses, freeing up the cash to be more liquid and to have more discretionary funds.


Stay tuned and we might see a lot more financial milestones broken.

It will depend upon revenues raised and expenses. If the revenues took a spike and continued over the norm for the organization over expenses then you could see an increase in the player budget. But you won't be seeing "milestones broken" without the huge revenue increase. Unless the investors want to make larger capitol investments and appreciate losing it.


If Jr. and Dunn are coming off the payroll, that frees up a LOT of room to make a big splash with a new player. And Teixiera is the best fit to be that player IMO.

Now you are saying something else. When the payroll expense of Griffey and Dunn terminates of course those funds will be available within the budget if it remains in the 70-80 million dollar range and is not reduced. The dollars for those contracts are already alotted within the current fiscal years budget. They made up for Codero by raising ticket prices, raising advertising dollars and using cheaper talent in the bullpen, on the bench and other considerations within the starting eight this year. They may have made that long term contract with Cordero with the belief that a Griffey or a Dunn liability will be gone next year forward.

fearofpopvol1
05-02-2008, 04:13 PM
Want to make a big splash? Sign Mark Teixeira in the offseason and move Joey Votto to LF.

That's an interesting idea and the reason I say that is Adam Dunn is in his contract year. Many here seem to be in favor of signing him to a LTC. I'm convinced that Dunn is going to command $15 million per year. I doubt Teixeira will be too much more. You may have to sign him to a longer contract, but the actual cost per year I don't think will be vastly different.

The problem comes into play that you could get into a bidding war and you'd have to make a decision about Dunn prior, but why not trade Dunn/take him to arbitration and get the picks and go after Teixeira and let Votto take over in LF?

Mark Teixeira > Adam Dunn

Spring~Fields
05-02-2008, 04:23 PM
Attendance has been down this year and last, hasn't it? I imagine something will have to change in that department before we see a huge payroll spike--something we haven't seen so far from Cast.

Right. I know that you understand FCB that the Reds just can't make a figure of 120 million and just go out and spend it on top quality players, the monies have to come from somewhere, unless the investors want to pony it up in additional capital investments, which they will lose unless the organization can support it by generating greater revenues and a positive net effect.

They just can't do it "spike the payroll" without the revenues or a huge capitol investment within normal business standards, and of course the Cincinnati Reds Inc are a business. If the Reds can only milk out X dollars from that business within their demographics they can only spend Y dollars. Unless we want a loser of an organization on the field and at the bank as a business.

When he ties up a figure like 13 million in one relief pitcher (if that was the true figure, I don't know) that's a chunk, and limits what they can spread around to obtain other players.

Benihana
05-02-2008, 04:33 PM
That's an interesting idea and the reason I say that is Adam Dunn is in his contract year. Many here seem to be in favor of signing him to a LTC. I'm convinced that Dunn is going to command $15 million per year. I doubt Teixeira will be too much more. You may have to sign him to a longer contract, but the actual cost per year I don't think will be vastly different.

The problem comes into play that you could get into a bidding war and you'd have to make a decision about Dunn prior, but why not trade Dunn/take him to arbitration and get the picks and go after Teixeira and let Votto take over in LF?

Mark Teixeira > Adam Dunn

My thoughts exactly. I would LOVE to see them make a run at Teixeira.

Spring~Fields
05-02-2008, 04:37 PM
Then he needs to bring Wayne Krivsky back. Have some direction. Either try to win like Twins (Krivsky) without the big market contracts, or try to win like the Cardinals (Jocketty) with them. But straddling the fence is only going to lead to a sore groin.

They are going to try and strike a balance between the two. We don't see how that can be accomplished yet. They had Krivsky doing the small market build within plan, which is why we saw some of fodder that came with the budget for the 25 man roster, which we fans don't like, that fodder. On the other hand now they have Jocketty who it was reported to work well within an environment where he could operate at higher budgets and trade minor leauge talent. It remains to be seen how they work this out. I can tell you that is why some of us beleive that a Dunn and a Griffey will be moved out to better alocate the funds and to give Jocketty room to operate.


On this baseball forum what we basically do as a group is argue asset allocations and how that would or would or would not lead to a better product on the field, ie. Produce or not produce a winning team.

When we go to an ESPN or other to look up the Reds payroll and we look at a figure of Team Total 74,117,695, that does not mean that is the total budge for the 25 man roster, the actual budget could be 80 million or 100 million if that is the way that they allotted it for the fiscal year of 2008 or as we fans say the “season”.

When you have players such as Cordero making a number listed at ESPN in the amount of 8,625,000, Dunn at 13,000, 000, Griffey at 8,282,695 and Harang at 6,750,000
These long term contracts become a part of the expenses allocated to this years budget and become contingent liabilities for future budgets increasing the risk on investment an allocations of future funds and limit’s the amount of dollars that can be used to obtain the supporting cast to go along with the four stars above.

13,000,000 2. Francisco Cordero 8,625,000 3. Ken Griffey Jr. 8,282,695 4. Aaron Harang 6,750,000

36,657,695/74,117,695 =.49459 % of the payroll invested in four players.

That leaves an assumed budgeted amount 74,117,695 - 36,657,695 for just four players salaries leaving an amount equal to 37,460,000 to be divided, disbursed or committed to the remaining 21 players, you see a figure of 1,783,810 that could be allocated toward each of the remaining players and of course that varies, either way they are limited in what they can do in the volatile competitive market of major league baseball and obtaining quality players to fill out the 25 man roster.

That is one of the reasons why we fans get upset when the funds are spent on a Milton type outcome or a Griffey is injured and out for the season or long term contracts are assigned to one or two players that don’t perform up to expectations, it is damaging to the small budget teams.

In the Cincinnati Reds demographics you have a lower population to generate revenues from than other larger populace cities making it limited to what the investors can invest toward player expenses.

SunDeck
05-02-2008, 04:39 PM
Put Ryan Freel in CF and hit him leadoff until his bat cools down.

Or until he runs into something and cracks his skull.
But I like it nonetheless- Freel is worth every frenetic, danger filled moment he is out there, with the exception of when he is making baserunning decisions.

Chip R
05-02-2008, 04:54 PM
You guys are just putting a square peg in a round hole. Most are excellent suggestions but there's little or no chance Dusty's going to follow them.

My suggestion is to have the powers that be sit down with Dusty and ask him what he wants in his lineup and go out and do the best you can to get it. If he wants a speedy CFer to lead off, use Patterson or get someone like Juan Pierre. If he wants the younger players to bat down in the lineup, let him do it. If he wants to keep Jr. around as mini-Hank Aaron, by all means, keep him around.

But you also tell him that if it doesn't work, he's not going to have his contract renewed after 2010. They are paying him big money to manage this team. At least let him do it his way with the guys he wants. That way there's no excuses if it blows up on him and if he succeeds, give him the lion's share of the credit.

Benihana
05-02-2008, 04:57 PM
You guys are just putting a square peg in a round hole. Most are excellent suggestions but there's little or no chance Dusty's going to follow them.

My suggestion is to have the powers that be sit down with Dusty and ask him what he wants in his lineup and go out and do the best you can to get it. If he wants a speedy CFer to lead off, use Patterson or get someone like Juan Pierre. If he wants the younger players to bat down in the lineup, let him do it. If he wants to keep Jr. around as mini-Hank Aaron, by all means, keep him around.

But you also tell him that if it doesn't work, he's not going to have his contract renewed after 2010. They are paying him big money to manage this team. At least let him do it his way with the guys he wants. That way there's no excuses if it blows up on him and if he succeeds, give him the lion's share of the credit.

Sorry, but I don't like giving the field manager that much authority, especially when his name is Dusty Baker. Jockellinni has more than enough clout to extend or fire Dusty in the next couple years for whatever reason(s) they see fit. I doubt Walt is going to sit back and let Dusty call the personnel shots.

And please no Juan Pierre!!

Chip R
05-02-2008, 05:05 PM
Sorry, but I don't like giving the field manager that much authority, especially when his name is Dusty Baker. Jockellinni has more than enough clout to extend or fire Dusty in the next couple years for whatever reason(s) they see fit. I doubt Walt is going to sit back and let Dusty call the personnel shots.

And please no Juan Pierre!!


I don't want him either but if that's the type of player Dusty wants leading off, then get him or a reasonable facsimilie.

Spring~Fields
05-02-2008, 05:25 PM
You guys are just putting a square peg in a round hole. Most are excellent suggestions but there's little or no chance Dusty's going to follow them.

My suggestion is to have the powers that be sit down with Dusty and ask him what he wants in his lineup and go out and do the best you can to get it. If he wants a speedy CFer to lead off, use Patterson or get someone like Juan Pierre. If he wants the younger players to bat down in the lineup, let him do it. If he wants to keep Jr. around as mini-Hank Aaron, by all means, keep him around.

But you also tell him that if it doesn't work, he's not going to have his contract renewed after 2010. They are paying him big money to manage this team. At least let him do it his way with the guys he wants. That way there's no excuses if it blows up on him and if he succeeds, give him the lion's share of the credit.

:clap::clap:

That's right you have to fabricate the roster to fit Dusty's management style and player usage or come to an agreement between Dusty and the GM, how they will use the players, and obtain the players that can achieve those goals.

Johnny Footstool
05-02-2008, 05:40 PM
:clap::clap:

That's right you have to fabricate the roster to fit Dusty's management style and player usage or come to an agreement between Dusty and the GM, how they will use the players, and obtain the players that can achieve those goals.

The Cubs tried that with Baker and watched their winning percentage drop like a rock as the years ticked by. I don't think that's the way to go.

The best way to fix things is to first figure out which things will fix themselves.

Dunn will hit, but will never be a good defender.

Patterson will hit better than he is hitting right now and will save runs in the field.

Junior might be doing all he can at this point. I don't think he'll be improving at the plate or in the field. As sad as it makes me, I think it's time for him to go.

Deal Junior, call up Bruce, and see what happens.

Spring~Fields
05-02-2008, 05:51 PM
The Cubs tried that with Baker and watched their winning percentage drop like a rock as the years ticked by. I don't think that's the way to go.

Yes,

Then Dusty becomes an additional problem to the mix of problems.

membengal
05-03-2008, 12:37 PM
I wonder if, given the bats that are coming fast in the system and project to 2b soon, whether Jocketty would be tempted to package B. Phillips somewhere when Gonzalez gets back, sliding Kepp to 2b, and trying to stock up elsewhere.

GAC
05-03-2008, 01:08 PM
The Cubs tried that with Baker and watched their winning percentage drop like a rock as the years ticked by. I don't think that's the way to go.


Sorry, but I don't like giving the field manager that much authority, especially when his name is Dusty Baker. Jockellinni has more than enough clout to extend or fire Dusty in the next couple years for whatever reason(s) they see fit. I doubt Walt is going to sit back and let Dusty call the personnel shots.

I agree gentlemen. It's going to be interesting to see, over the course of this season and going into next, just how close (or far apart) Jocketty's philosophy and idea of what a team should look like is as compared to Dusty's. It's a GM's responsibility to construct a roster - decides who stays, who goes, and what type of players to acquire to fill holes/needs in accordance with his plans.

The bigger question is - if that is the GMs responsibility (evaluating, acquiring talent, putting the pieces of the puzzle together), then doesn't that also involve to a degree on how they are to be played in accordance to any said plan he has? And if that manager is not on the same page, or in disagreement, then it could get interesting. Example? Lets say Jocketty says we need a solid leadoff guy with a strong OB%, and goes out and gets one; but Baker likes a speedy Patterson-type there, and bats Jocketty's guy 7th, or utilizes players in a way that doesn't square with how the team should look according to the GM. It's that GM's butt that is on the line (ask Krivsky).

Dusty does not come off as a flexible person. Yes, it could evolve into an interesting scenario by next season as changes are made.

SunDeck
05-03-2008, 01:55 PM
Sorry, but I don't like giving the field manager that much authority, especially when his name is Dusty Baker. Jockellinni has more than enough clout to extend or fire Dusty in the next couple years for whatever reason(s) they see fit. I doubt Walt is going to sit back and let Dusty call the personnel shots.

And please no Juan Pierre!!

I don't think it is fair to hire someone only to tell them you won't build the kind of team they believe they work best with, which is different than giving him all that authority. OTOH he was Krivsky's hire and not Jocketty's; and if the kind of team he likes to work with is not the same kind of team Jocketty wants to build, then they should politely show him the door and thank him for his service. But to keep him around and try to force him to work with something he may not believe is the right kind of team seems like a recipe for losing to me.

REDREAD
05-03-2008, 11:32 PM
Want to make a big splash? Sign Mark Teixeira in the offseason and move Joey Votto to LF.

How about resign Dunn, sign Texeria and then trade Votto for a CF? :thumbup:

Spring~Fields
05-03-2008, 11:36 PM
How about resign Dunn, sign Texeria and then trade Votto for a CF? :thumbup:

How about they trade Dunn for a CF, Votto can actually hit the ball. ;)