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View Full Version : this losing keeps up, you wont see huge crowds other than the Boston series!!



redsfan4445
05-02-2008, 10:05 PM
May 2nd..
NO OFFENSE, and another wasted start by our starting pitching.. I hope moves are made by the next home stand..im not wasting money to go watch losing baseball after all the only high lite is Jr and the 600 home run.. nothing else will happen other than last place.. sad i never expected this team to suck like this.. GRRRR

Falls City Beer
05-02-2008, 10:07 PM
You got to believe Dusty's on the hot seat. He's not Walt's man.

klw
05-02-2008, 10:07 PM
Well there's the Cubs fans too.

edabbs44
05-02-2008, 10:08 PM
You got to believe Dusty's on the hot seat. He's not Walt's man.

That would be flat out ridiculous.

Falls City Beer
05-02-2008, 10:10 PM
That would be flat out ridiculous.

You've followed this club for how many years?

edabbs44
05-02-2008, 10:13 PM
You've followed this club for how many years?

I think that would top many. Signing a manager to a contract like that and then dumping him within the first year would be out there.

Dusty has nothing to do with Dunn and Griffey sucking. Nothing to do with the uselessness of the bench. Nothing to do with the poor roster construction.

The only negative I would give him would be on his lineup construction. But that isn't enough to totally negate the offense.

fearofpopvol1
05-02-2008, 10:13 PM
You got to believe Dusty's on the hot seat. He's not Walt's man.

I sort of agree with this, although I think it's still a little early.

Falls City Beer
05-02-2008, 10:14 PM
I think that would top many. Signing a manager to a contract like that and then dumping him within the first year would be out there.

Dusty has nothing to do with Dunn and Griffey sucking. Nothing to do with the uselessness of the bench. Nothing to do with the poor roster construction.

The only negative I would give him would be on his lineup construction. But that isn't enough to totally negate the offense.

I know Dusty's not the least bit responsible for this trainwreck.

Aronchis
05-02-2008, 10:17 PM
If I would have expected this type of bullpen production, I would have thought a 500 record or better at this point. The Arroyo and offensive decline have took a toll so far.

Sea Ray
05-02-2008, 10:38 PM
May 2nd..
NO OFFENSE, and another wasted start by our starting pitching.. I hope moves are made by the next home stand..im not wasting money to go watch losing baseball after all the only high lite is Jr and the 600 home run.. nothing else will happen other than last place.. sad i never expected this team to suck like this.. GRRRR

I agree. As a fan, how is it the least bit entertaining to sit through 3 hrs of baseball only to see your team get three hits? This team is not even entertaining to watch.

The Baumer
05-03-2008, 12:03 AM
If we all buy 4 tickets to every game the Reds will have enough money to take over Johan Santana's contract in 2013.

Don't give up on this team!

Red in Chicago
05-03-2008, 12:20 AM
I'm bringing my parents (Cub fans...sigh) to two of next weeks games against the Cubs. I already have our seats, but just for kicks, I decided to see what kind of seats were still available. I could pretty much get a good spot anywhere I wanted, which is actually surprising as it's been more difficult in prior years. Unless there is a mad last minute rush, maybe the "sea of blue" won't be in full force for the series.

I must admit though, that I'm not thrilled about driving 5 hours down there to see a team put together 3 - 6 hits (if I'm lucky). I sure hope the offense decides to make an appearance next week.

WVRedsFan
05-03-2008, 12:34 AM
I know Dusty's not the least bit responsible for this trainwreck.

True. So true.

I'm not a dusty Baker fan, but I've seen him win games. He's not an idiot. I've seen idiots (as baseball managers) names withheld to protect the innocent, who have managed the Reds. You have to wonder why he took the job. Here was the pitch:

"Dusty, at first we've got Scott Hatteberg. He's 38 and a lefty, but we paid his option and he'll platoon with Joey Votto, who's a rookie and also left handed. At second, we've got Brandon Phillips who had a career year in 2007. At shortstop, we've got Alex Gonzalez, but he hasn't played much and Jeff Keppinger will play there. At third, we've got Edwin Encarnacion who has fielding problems, but had a hot bat every other month. In the outfield, we've got the powerful Adam Dunn who goes through horrible slumps, Ryan Freel, who hits in splurts and tries to make a we gem on every bal hit to him (and he has this little base running problem), and in rightfield we have Hall of Famer Ken Griffey, Jr., who's 38, but can still hit. Our catcher is David Ross who spent most of last year hitting below .200 and is not the best fielding catcher and Javier Valentin, who is at best a backup. Our starting pitching staff consists of two rookies, Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo. The fifth guy is totally inconsistent. We've going to bring in Josh Fogg, who might give us 5 innings of 3 run ball. Our relievers are the worst in the business. I know you want this job."

I have run like the devil away from this and stayed at ESPN. He brought in Corey Patterson because he thought he was what he did not have--a guy who could play centerfield. Dunn and Griffey would make up for his poor skills with the bat and he brought in Paul Bako because he is a competent catcher, something we didn't have. It's all gone south because the team is horrilbly constructed. That doesn't excuse Dusty's poor lineup construction. You have to believe that will change and I understand it will starting tomorrow.

Walt Jocketty has a big job in front of him. The offense must improve and that will require moves. If he cuts or trades Valentin or Ross, brings up Jay Bruce to play center, acquires a right-handed power bat, andconvinces Dusty to tweak his lineup, things may begin to improve. Same with Dusty. He needs to construct his lineup better. All we can do is hope because if changes are not made, we'll lose 90 games again and folks will stay away in large numbers.

Highlifeman21
05-03-2008, 08:53 AM
The Reds will sell out when the Cubs are in town, the Red Sox are in town and the Cardinals are in town.

Aside from that, maybe only on the better fan giveaway days...

GAC
05-03-2008, 09:56 AM
I know Dusty's not the least bit responsible for this trainwreck.

Then why would he be on the hot seat then? Bob C can't be that stupid can he? ;)

Spring~Fields
05-03-2008, 10:30 AM
Then why would he be on the hot seat then? Bob C can't be that stupid can he? ;)


I don’t know about that, Bob seems to fit the old cliché, that if you don't get it right the first time, to try, try again. Bob keeps trying, I guess because he can’t get it right. :)

Falls City Beer
05-03-2008, 10:33 AM
Then why would he be on the hot seat then? Bob C can't be that stupid can he? ;)

Because he's not Walt's choice.

Spring~Fields
05-03-2008, 10:42 AM
12 wins - 18 losses .400 win pct projects to

65 wins - 97 losses on the season.

97 losses !!! hotseats for everyone. :all_cohol

cincrazy
05-03-2008, 11:43 AM
Because he's not Walt's choice.

But he was Bob's choice. And with that being said, he's not going anywhere anytime soon.

nate
05-03-2008, 11:51 AM
Because he's not Walt's choice.

Who do you think Walt would choose? Tony LaRussa?

Reds4Life
05-03-2008, 11:54 AM
Because he's not Walt's choice.

I think people are forgetting this is the same organization that canned Tony Perez after 44 games. If this year tanks, I would not be suprised to see Baker gone at the end of the year.

Reds4Life
05-03-2008, 11:57 AM
But he was Bob's choice. And with that being said, he's not going anywhere anytime soon.

Krivksy was Bob's choice too, now he's at the unemployment offiice. Don't assume because he's "Bob's choice" that he won't dump him in a heartbeat. And according to the intereview with Krivksy, Baker was his choice, Bob just chose to go along for the ride.

edabbs44
05-03-2008, 12:18 PM
I think people are forgetting this is the same organization that canned Tony Perez after 44 games. If this year tanks, I would not be suprised to see Baker gone at the end of the year.

Tony wasn't one of the highest paid managers in the sport. I can't see Bob eating that much money this soon.

I'd say the watch begins at next year's ASB.

GAC
05-03-2008, 12:37 PM
Because he's not Walt's choice.

No, but the owner was involved in that choice. Which brings up another interesting scenario....

Why hire a manager, or allow your GM (Krivsky) to make such a choice (as Reds4Life states), pay him big money for a MLB manager (3yrs @ around 10 mil), when it now appears obvious that the owner was having huge doubts about his current GM (Krivsky) prior to even going into this season? Those had to exist prior to cause an owner to fire a guy 22 games into the new season. He has to have realized that if he replaces his GM, that new GM may want his guy in there as manager.

Now if things don't work out between Jocketty and Baker, for whatever reasons, this owner has no one else but himself to blame for having to eating a 10 mil contract. ;)

I guess better foresight by this owner should have been utilized IMO.


Krivksy was Bob's choice too, now he's at the unemployment offiice. Don't assume because he's "Bob's choice" that he won't dump him in a heartbeat. And according to the intereview with Krivksy, Baker was his choice, Bob just chose to go along for the ride.

That is what is starting to concern me about this impetuous owner. When is he going to start being held accountable for his "choices"?

reds44
05-03-2008, 12:41 PM
No, but he was the owner's choice. Which brings up another interesting scenario....

According to Wayne Krivsky he was Wayne Krivsky's choice.

Falls City Beer
05-03-2008, 02:45 PM
I think people are forgetting this is the same organization that canned Tony Perez after 44 games. If this year tanks, I would not be suprised to see Baker gone at the end of the year.

Truth.

WVRedsFan
05-03-2008, 04:14 PM
According to Wayne Krivsky he was Wayne Krivsky's choice.

Easy to ignore that when you're making a case for the owner's insanity. It's been mentioned a dozen times on here and no one comments. Why?

GAC
05-03-2008, 05:08 PM
Easy to ignore that when you're making a case for the owner's insanity. It's been mentioned a dozen times on here and no one comments. Why?

I never said he was insane. Little bit of an overstatement on your part WV. Only that his impatience (which is not necessarily a virtue) seems to contributes to what many see as his impetuousness/rashness. But never insane. When does the "buck stop here" start to imply with this owner? It's been 2+ years for him too.

It's pretty obvious that he was having misgivings about Krivsky's job performance over the off-season. It's not simply something that suddenly arose 3 weeks into the new season. I don't believe that for a second.

If Krivsky was doing such an inept job, as many have implied over these last 2 years, then one has to also look at the individual who interviewed and hired the guy in the first place, and his judgment.

But it may look then like Krivsky may have put the screws to Bob C once again if he was solely responsible for hiring Baker, and Baker does not work out. So that should make some happy. Every time Baker does something wrong, the anti-Krivsky people can trot out "it's all Wayne's fault" for the next 1-2-3 years, or however long Dusty is here. ;)

Again - are those that put Krivsky on such a short timetable going to start the clock and do the same with Jocketty?

WVRedsFan
05-03-2008, 08:40 PM
I never said he was insane. Little bit of an overstatement on your part WV. Only that his impatience (which is not necessarily a virtue) seems to contributes to what many see as his impetuousness/rashness. But never insane. When does the "buck stop here" start to imply with this owner? It's been 2+ years for him too.

It's pretty obvious that he was having misgivings about Krivsky's job performance over the off-season. It's not simply something that suddenly arose 3 weeks into the new season. I don't believe that for a second.

If Krivsky was doing such an inept job, as many have implied over these last 2 years, then one has to also look at the individual who interviewed and hired the guy in the first place, and his judgment.

But it may look then like Krivsky may have put the screws to Bob C once again if he was solely responsible for hiring Baker, and Baker does not work out. So that should make some happy. Every time Baker does something wrong, the anti-Krivsky people can trot out "it's all Wayne's fault" for the next 1-2-3 years, or however long Dusty is here. ;)

Again - are those that put Krivsky on such a short timetable going to start the clock and do the same with Jocketty?
First of all, that comment was not thrown at you. I was just commenting on 44's comment that Wayne has consistently mentioned that Dusty Baker was his choice. In fact, he's volunteered it. With all the talk about the offensive problems being Dusty's fault (and there is a little bit of truth in that), it's always mentioned that he is Castellini's man. Apparently he was also Krivsky's man. That isn't mentioned because that would paint some disfavor on Wayne, which many aren't willing to do. I find that interesting.

Regardless, I think there is enough blame to go around between Castellini, Krivsky, Baker, and probably many others. If you look at this disfunctional team, you do have to wonder what any of them were thinking. Who assembled this mish-mash of improbable players?

And I promise you this, if the Reds keep on losing and looking badly, you can bet I will be the first once to call for changes as I am now. I'm counting on Jocketty to make the roster better. If he fails, then I'll be on him. If Baker continues to run players out there who don't have a clue at the plate, I'll be upset. As I watch the game right now, Ryan Freel has made another base running blunder because he wasn't paying attention. He got to 3rd anyway, but he got lucky.

The general philosophy we've all clamored for has been pitching and defense. Last night we got both and still lost. Paying attention to both sides of the equation is what I long for. It's something we haven't seen in a decade around here.

REDREAD
05-03-2008, 09:19 PM
I think Bob is smart enough to realize that no manager would be able to take this poorly constructed roster and turn it into a winning team.

Dusty is safe through this year, at bare minimum. Probably next year too.

reds44
05-03-2008, 09:22 PM
Dusty Baker has very little to do with why the Reds are losing right now, and that is coming from somebody who didn't like the hire at the time, and still doesn't.

I'm going to let Dusty hang himself before I do it for him, and he just hasn't done it as of yet.

GAC
05-04-2008, 07:17 AM
With all the talk about the offensive problems being Dusty's fault (and there is a little bit of truth in that), it's always mentioned that he is Castellini's man. Apparently he was also Krivsky's man. That isn't mentioned because that would paint some disfavor on Wayne, which many aren't willing to do. I find that interesting.

You're a good man WV and passionate about the Reds (as we all are). And there is truth there. While I, and many others supported Krivsky, we never blindly followed/supported him with no questions asked concerning some of the moves/decisions he has made. And no one, including myself, is trying to "cover" for the guy. Only that he wasn't given enough time when one looks at what he inherited and the monumental task he, or any GM for that matter, was having to face with this organization from top to bottom. Unless the owner was going to come in here and immediately pour millions and millions in the FA market to acquire those quality pieces of the puzzle it just wasn't going to be fixed over night.

I was under the impression, from what I have read on here (never saw the WK interview), that Baker was Bob C's decision. Now it appears both he and WK were involved. OK - so they are both guilty.

So, with the hiring of WK, and his involvement with the decision in the Baker hiring, Bob is 0-2 at the plate.

When you make the quantitative amount of moves he was making, one is bound to make mistakes. He has made some sound ones too IMO. The pitching is improved, and with the youth, is, IMO, heading in the right direction.

The team is dysfunctional, but we don have some sound pieces. The question is "Can Jocko put Humpty Dumpty back together again?"

And even Jocketty, since he has taken over, has stated this is going to take time and patience. So how long are those who showed such impatience towards WK going to give Jocketty? I'm going to show the same "courtesy" towards Jocketty that I did WK.


Regardless, I think there is enough blame to go around between Castellini, Krivsky, Baker, and probably many others. If you look at this disfunctional team, you do have to wonder what any of them were thinking. Who assembled this mish-mash of improbable players?

Of the three - Baker is the least guilty IMO (other then Patterson). I just think he is not constructing his lineups to maximize (and minimize) various players abilities. Dusty Baker, from his experiences in playing the game, and what he has gained in managing, has more baseball knowledge in one hand then I have in my entire body. But that is what confounds me and many others. When it comes to this offense, he seems to even blatantly ignore even what most would see as the fundamental "ABC's", Common sense stuff.

When they beat the crap out of SF last weekend, and he comments after the game that his "speed" lineup was the factor in the win (Dunn/Grif were out), when everyone else can see we were facing a pitcher (Zito) who has been downright terrible and couldn't even get out of the 1st inning, then I want to shake my head.

I didn't want to believe it before, and thought many on here were making a really big deal (taking out of context out) some of his OB% comments. I actually defended the guy. But it appears to be true from what I've seen so far this season. He's into a speed and aggressive style of play, which may be fine once you get the guys on base AND if you have the right personnel to successfully accomplish it percentage-wise.

It's not Dusty Baker's fault entirely as to why this offense had a dismal April. The "heart" of our production (Dunn, Grif, BP) aren't hitting/producing in that role. Players slump and have slow months. That's baseball.

It is his fault though as a manager when he can't see that when certain players are struggling and others are hot for a consistent period of time, you shuffle your lineup to try and maximize/minimize those situations. He is either oblivious to that, has no clue, or is stubborn.

Take a look at his "reshuffling" of the lineup in yesterday's game (1 thru7). This is his solution?


OB% SLG%

Freel .344 .368
Griffey rf .323 .394
Phillips 2b .317 .487
Votto 1b .333 .512
Encarnacion 3b .369 .542
Dunn lf .371 .374
Keppinger ss .346 .408


Phillips, Dunn, and Griff are up there in the NL in Ks. But at least Adam offsets that with BBs and a .374 OB%. IMO, he is not helping Dunn, putting him in a situation in that order, that maximizes what good he is doing while helping him try to come out of this early season slump.

He bats the guy leading the team in hits (36) 7th in Keppinger?

I look at the above lineup, those posted stats as well as some others, and I'm befuddled as to what Baker is going on that makes him construct it in such a manner? What is guiding him to these decisions?

http://www.courttv.com/graphics/photos/topnews/mscleo/cleo_topnews_011602.jpg



And I promise you this, if the Reds keep on losing and looking badly, you can bet I will be the first once to call for changes as I am now. I'm counting on Jocketty to make the roster better. If he fails, then I'll be on him.

And even Jocketty, since he has taken over, has stated this is going to take time and patience. So how long does he get? I'm going to show the same "courtesy" towards Jocketty that I did WK. I'm not upset at him getting the job.


If Baker continues to run players out there who don't have a clue at the plate, I'll be upset.

You might want to start going to McDonalds then and getting their Extra Valium meal and wash it down with JD http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0026.gif (http://www.ranksurge.com)


.....cause IMHO the "little light" is not gonna switch on in Dusty's head.