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View Full Version : Bad Kyle showed up today



icehole3
05-03-2008, 05:42 PM
Lohse getting lit on fire on national tv today by the Cubs, I was wondering were he was, there's my boy.

http://www.sternfannetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/Happy/HappyWave.gif

reds44
05-03-2008, 05:46 PM
I'd rather have him than Fogg or Belisle.

Loshe's ERA is now at 3.52.

OnBaseMachine
05-03-2008, 05:49 PM
Lohse has a 3.35 K/9 and 9 BB/14 K ratio. I just don't see him sustaining any kind of long-term success with putrid numbers like that.

Topcat
05-03-2008, 05:50 PM
I'd rather have him than Fogg or Belisle.

Loshe's ERA is now at 3.52.


Not even close! Man are you so short sighted that you actually want Kyle Loshe back:rolleyes:

reds44
05-03-2008, 05:51 PM
Short sighted? I've been saying since the beginning of March that the Reds should have signed Loshe over Fogg, and I know I'm not the only one.

Reds1
05-03-2008, 05:58 PM
I think Loshe is a better pitcher, but I don't like his attitude. I don't want either one. LOL

I still think Belise could be a good 4 or 5. Hope so.

Sea Ray
05-03-2008, 06:08 PM
I think you have to give Dave Duncan a lot of credit for the success of Lohse and other Cardinal pitchers this year. For that matter give Hal McKrae credit for the hitters overachieving. I don't think we can understate the advantage the Cardinals have over us when you compare Duncan to Pole and McKrae to Jacoby.

Spring~Fields
05-03-2008, 06:23 PM
I think you have to give Dave Duncan a lot of credit for the success of Lohse and other Cardinal pitchers this year. For that matter give Hal McKrae credit for the hitters overachieving. I don't think we can understate the advantage the Cardinals have over us when you compare Duncan to Pole and McKrae to Jacoby.

:clap::clap:

icehole3
05-03-2008, 06:31 PM
I think Kyle goes thru stretches where he hits the corners then he'll hit the middle the plate. He was throwing pitches in the red hot zone today, not sure why he does it but he does it.

Spitball
05-03-2008, 07:38 PM
I think Kyle goes thru stretches where he hits the corners then he'll hit the middle the plate. He was throwing pitches in the red hot zone today, not sure why he does it but he does it.

I don't think Kyle should be allowed to think. If he is hitting his outside corner from the get-go, he is very tough. If the umpire squeezes that corner inward, Kyle can't compensate with the necessary adjustment. He is almost always starts catching way too much of the plate in those situations. He can't seem to make the small adjustment to meet the umpire's corner.

The same is true when he gets into trouble. He starts making pitches that are too good.

KronoRed
05-04-2008, 12:38 AM
I'll take anything over more Kyle Lohse, sometimes it's good to let guys go even if you don't have a lot to replace them with.

Topcat
05-04-2008, 07:49 AM
The guy is now over priced heaping crap. Fogg cost 1 mill and sorry but fogg is not the Red's problem so far. It is the lack of hitting. reds44 man you've changed . I almost always went by your posts and said yes a guy who is one of us. Now your like a Yankee's fan wanting results right now! Sorry dude th3e mess of the past should not be solved or pushed upon this team and expect instant results.

membengal
05-08-2008, 05:26 PM
Bad Kyle in effect again this afternoon:

4 IP
8 hits
5 walks
7 ER
4 Ks
92 pitches

ERA for the year now up to 4.87.

RedsManRick
05-08-2008, 05:40 PM
About time. Something had to give.



Name ERA Career ERA
Kyle Lohse 3.79 4.79
Braden Looper 3.95 3.88
Adam Wainwright 2.25 3.40
Todd Wellemeyer 4.07 4.85
Joel Pineiro 4.33 4.47

membengal
05-08-2008, 05:54 PM
Yeah, it's the start, I think, of a correction for that Cardinals team that I have been expecting. No way they were going to maintain the pace they started out the season with.

Didn't hurt them, either, that 21 of their first 32 games were in St. Louis, and they had played Washington and SF nine of those 32 games.

Seriously, if the Reds will just keep Chicago and Milwaukee in view, then St. Louis will pinwheel back over the next few months. As bad as the Reds start has been, at least it is not the Cubs who jumped out to a brisk start.

Bob Borkowski
05-08-2008, 07:04 PM
Yeah, it's the start, I think, of a correction for that Cardinals team that I have been expecting. No way they were going to maintain the pace they started out the season with.

Didn't hurt them, either, that 21 of their first 32 games were in St. Louis, and they had played Washington and SF nine of those 32 games.

Seriously, if the Reds will just keep Chicago and Milwaukee in view, then St. Louis will pinwheel back over the next few months. As bad as the Reds start has been, at least it is not the Cubs who jumped out to a brisk start.

I agree.

Patience! It is a lo-o-o-ng season and water seeks its own level.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2008, 07:20 PM
About time. Something had to give.



Name ERA Career ERA
Kyle Lohse 3.79 4.79
Braden Looper 3.95 3.88
Adam Wainwright 2.25 3.40
Todd Wellemeyer 4.07 4.85
Joel Pineiro 4.33 4.47

Five slots of non-apocalyptic starters can keep you around in this division. Having guys like Fogg, Arroyo, and Belisle can sink the hell out of a team. That's the lesson I'm taking away from this list.

Just like last year, the Reds have two starters, a guy on a very steep learning curve, and then death....

Patrick Bateman
05-08-2008, 07:27 PM
I really don't see what seperates Belisle from that group of startes.... and hell, Arroyo has sucked this year, but it's not exactly a tough standard to get back up to Looper/Pineiro level.

membengal
05-08-2008, 07:38 PM
Lohse: Apocalyptic starter
Wellmeyer: Same
Piniero: Massive injury risk and near apocalyptic starter

Looper: Serviceable

Wainwright: Good

FCB, no need to denigrate the Reds staff compared to that collection. Even with Arroyo having issues and uncertainty with Belisle, the Reds have a superior staff. In fact, without question in my mind, the starters ERAs by the end of the season will be better for Cincy than St. Louis, and the Reds will be ahead of St. Louis in the standings. Mark it.

PuffyPig
05-08-2008, 07:45 PM
Five slots of non-apocalyptic starters can keep you around in this division. Having guys like Fogg, Arroyo, and Belisle can sink the hell out of a team. That's the lesson I'm taking away from this list.

Just like last year, the Reds have two starters, a guy on a very steep learning curve, and then death....


Last year, Lohse was death.

Now this year, he's the same pitcher (but with a higher ERA), but he's no longer death?

Just because he's on the Cards......

Arroyo and Belise have xFIPs every bit as good as the Cards lower part of the rotation this year. And that's with Arroyo and Belise stumbling, and the lower part of the Cards rotation pitching above their heads.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2008, 08:09 PM
I really don't see what seperates Belisle from that group of startes....

Belisle may turn it around. I don't see it from Arroyo.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2008, 08:11 PM
and the Reds will be ahead of St. Louis in the standings. Mark it.

No.

They may have similar rotations when all is said and done, but an offense driven by Pujols and a random supporting cast versus one driven by Dunn and a random supporting cast will always favor the former.

And the Cards have a better bullpen.

Matt700wlw
05-08-2008, 08:13 PM
The almighty Cardinals can do no wrong

:)

Patrick Bateman
05-08-2008, 08:14 PM
Belisle may turn it around. I don't see it from Arroyo.

It doesn't exactly take much to get to Pineiro level. If that's all we need, it's not that big a stretch even considering how bad he's been.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2008, 08:14 PM
The almighty Cardinals can do no wrong

:)

Feel free to name a season since 2000 when they've done wrong.

Matt700wlw
05-08-2008, 08:16 PM
They've been the team to beat for years...but I don't think they'll hang on this year. They'll hang around though, and keep it interesting.

My pick is the Cubs, but they may find a way to screw it up like they usually do.

Who knows? In this division....

A hot streak can change things.

HokieRed
05-08-2008, 08:18 PM
Sorry to say this, but Braden Looper is a much better pitcher than Matt Belisle. His career ERA, established over many more innings and years, is a full run better than Belisle's. Belisle has never had a WHIP for a season in which he's had significant work that is as good as the worst WHIP Looper has put up over the past 7 seasons. I, too, think the Cardinals' rotation has been pitching way over their heads, but it's important for us not to overestimate our talent. If Walt Jocketty had a chance to trade Matt Belisle for Braden Looper--whom I believe Jocketty drafted--I'm pretty sure Looper would be in our rotation.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2008, 08:20 PM
Sorry to say this, but Braden Looper is a much better pitcher than Matt Belisle. His career ERA, established over many more innings and years, is a full run better than Belisle's. Belisle has never had a WHIP for a season in which he's had significant work that is as good as the worst WHIP Looper has put up over the past 7 seasons. I, too, think the Cardinals' rotation has been pitching way over their heads, but it's important for us not to overestimate our talent. If Walt Jocketty had a chance to trade Matt Belisle for Braden Looper--whom I believe Jocketty drafted--I'm pretty sure Looper would be in our rotation.

I would much, much rather have Looper in the rotation as well. He'd be the third best starter on the squad if he were on the Reds.

Matt700wlw
05-08-2008, 08:20 PM
Belisle may turn it around. I don't see it from Arroyo.

Belisle is Belise.

Won't change. I've seen nothing to tell me he'll ever be all that good.


Arroyo is....done it looks like. I almost hope he's hurt...then there's possibly a reason for his struggles other than being done...

Patrick Bateman
05-08-2008, 08:31 PM
Sorry to say this, but Braden Looper is a much better pitcher than Matt Belisle. His career ERA, established over many more innings and years, is a full run better than Belisle's. Belisle has never had a WHIP for a season in which he's had significant work that is as good as the worst WHIP Looper has put up over the past 7 seasons. I, too, think the Cardinals' rotation has been pitching way over their heads, but it's important for us not to overestimate our talent. If Walt Jocketty had a chance to trade Matt Belisle for Braden Looper--whom I believe Jocketty drafted--I'm pretty sure Looper would be in our rotation.

Your free to your own opinion about the Looper vs. Belisle debate, but the logic applied here is flawed in determining Looper's true value.

Firstly, most of those seasons came when Looper was a reliever. Being a starting pitcher is a much harder job, and as such, a transition to starter led to predictably worse results for Looper.

Secondly, Looper is no longer the same pitcher he was during most of those seasons. At one point Looper was a flamethrower back of the pen option. That point has passed (partially through injuries) and his stuff has taken a hit. At this point, he's mainly a control type of guy. Looper's career stats are hugely misleading in this case.

Looper's one full season as a starter yielded a 4.94 ERA in 30 starts, a K/9 of 4.47, K/BB of 1.71. Not exactly overwhelming numbers there.

This season, the stats look about the same, the stuff isn't coming back and the K's remain low. Realistically, I don't see a whole lot of things Looper is doing right now different from last season that should create wholesale changes in his numbers. He's a back of the rotation option that should be expected to produce an ERA in the 4.50+ range. Over the long haul, I wouldn't expect Belisle to produce meaningful differences from that.

HokieRed
05-08-2008, 09:16 PM
Looper's WHIP last year was 1.34, Belisle's was 1.44. Looper was a closer over those years because he had better stuff. Would anybody seriously propose such a role for Matt Belisle? The starter/reliever comparison is not so simple as to say starters are better than relievers. I really don't care that much for Looper, but I do think Belisle has a very clear track record--start or relieve, Louisville or Cinti. His WHIP's always around 1.5. That's too high for anything more than a very marginal number 5 guy and I don't want this organization to decide that he's an adequate part of the rotation on a longer term basis.

Patrick Bateman
05-09-2008, 03:41 AM
Looper's WHIP last year was 1.34, Belisle's was 1.44. Looper was a closer over those years because he had better stuff. Would anybody seriously propose such a role for Matt Belisle?

That was so not my point. Relievers, in general post much better numbers than starters on a per game basis because pitching is easier on a one-two inning basis. Thus, Looper's number's as a reliever will not accurately reflect what he will do as a starter. Additionally, Looper began declining and was no longer closer material at then end of his relief career.

And honestly, I really don't care aout WHIP. Belisle's flaws are well documented, but what does Looper really offer as a starter? He's a back of the rotation type of guy. Even if you bring up WHIP there still isn't a whole heck of a lot of difference between Belisle and Looper. There really isn't a fine line here where one sucks and one is good. They can be both tossed into the same grab bag of back end options with Pineiro and Lohse. There just isn't going to be anything more than marginal differences between any of them.

membengal
05-09-2008, 08:41 AM
No.

They may have similar rotations when all is said and done, but an offense driven by Pujols and a random supporting cast versus one driven by Dunn and a random supporting cast will always favor the former.

And the Cards have a better bullpen.

Yes.

I don't buy their offense is better, and the Reds have the better bullpen.

I don't do "bets", and you don't either, so let's just remember to check back on this come Sept. 30.

PuffyPig
05-09-2008, 08:49 AM
... but an offense driven by Pujols and a random supporting cast versus one driven by Dunn and a random supporting cast will always favor the former.



Always??????

You only have to go back as far as 2007, our last full season, to see that an offense driven by Dunn and a random supporting cast can indeed favor one driven by Pujols and a random supporting cast, when the Reds outscored the Cards by about 60 runs.

Bob Borkowski
05-10-2008, 12:01 AM
They've been the team to beat for years...but I don't think they'll hang on this year. They'll hang around though, and keep it interesting.



Who knows? In this division....

A hot streak can change things.

Cards and Isringhausen just blew a lead going into bottom of ninth at Milwaukee. Brewers win. Isringhausen is pretty unpredictable.

Screwball
05-10-2008, 12:05 AM
Cards and Isringhausen just blew a lead going into bottom of ninth at Milwaukee. Brewers win. Isringhausen is pretty unpredictable.

4 straight Brewers reached base with 2 out (3 singles and a walk). Tough one to lose for the Cards.

PuffyPig
05-10-2008, 12:42 AM
4 straight Brewers reached base with 2 out (3 singles and a walk). Tough one to lose for the Cards.

I even feel a little sorry for FCB....

Matt700wlw
05-10-2008, 12:25 PM
Cards and Isringhausen just blew a lead going into bottom of ninth at Milwaukee. Brewers win. Isringhausen is pretty unpredictable.

I saw that. I enjoyed it.


Except for the Brewers part.

Bob Borkowski
05-10-2008, 12:50 PM
I saw that. I enjoyed it.


Except for the Brewers part.

Everyday the second-most important score of the day is the Cardinals result. When they lose I celebrate.

Most of the people here on the board seem to root against the Cubs. Not me. The past few years, while the Reds twisted in the wind, the Cards, using smoke and mirrors, have excelled.

It's unfair, I say! Unfair! :p:

HokieRed
05-10-2008, 04:49 PM
One thing I think we should do is declare a moratorium on saying how much better our pitchers are than anybody else's. I'd sure rather have Bad Kyle than a lot of what we have, starting with Matt Belisle.

Falls City Beer
05-10-2008, 06:09 PM
One thing I think we should do is declare a moratorium on saying how much better our pitchers are than anybody else's.

Yep. It's a cold place--reality--but man is it ever clear and bright, and forever fogless.

membengal
05-10-2008, 11:35 PM
And, Arroyo is good again. Weird, that.

The Reds pitchers are better than the Cards pitchers. Mark it yet again.

It's a loooonnnnggg season. My mental money is comfortable with the Reds staff over the Cards staff for 2008, and the same for where those teams will finish. Izzy says "hi" from his demotion, by the way...

MrCinatit
05-11-2008, 03:42 AM
Yep. It's a cold place--reality--but man is it ever clear and bright, and forever fogless.

The Reds pitching would be a lot better were it Foggless.

Bob Borkowski
05-24-2008, 11:03 PM
Lohse is slated to start tonight as the Cards face the Dodgers in LA.

He is 3-2 with a 4.71 ERA.

I'll be keeping an eye on that game. :)

Joseph
05-24-2008, 11:14 PM
Lohse is slated to start tonight as the Cards face the Dodgers in LA.

He is 3-2 with a 4.71 ERA.

I'll be keeping an eye on that game. :)

I had the 'joy' of seeing my one and only game at Dodger stadium last year when Mr Lohse pitched, the bad one.

Chip R
05-25-2008, 02:14 AM
Good Kyle showed up tonight as the Cards won 4-0

The Baumer
05-25-2008, 03:36 AM
Dodgers sweep the Reds every year then roll over for the Cards. And living in LA I have to watch this travesty first hand.

redsrule2500
05-25-2008, 07:03 AM
why can the cards succeed even with our trash? :(

Falls City Beer
05-25-2008, 11:11 AM
Lohse isn't a bad NL pitcher; and the Dodgers' offense is about as lame as the Reds'.

The Cards are a pretty good team (though not a great one), but the Reds are a really, really awful team.