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View Full Version : Time To Send Junior and Dunn Packing



Krusty
05-03-2008, 10:43 PM
I know it is early but a 12-19 record isn't what Reds fans or owners envisioned for what was supposed to be a promising season with a season veteran manager onboard.

And what we have seen so far is what we have seen the past two years. Only difference is an improved starting rotation with the young arms and a much improved bullpen. But the offense still can't manufacture runs and Dunn's inablility to hit with runners in scoring position is enough to drive even mild manner Reds fans nuts.

Things won't change unless there is new blood. Time to bring up Bruce and Bailey. Time to send Junior packing back to Seattle where he can wrap up a Hall of Fame career. Get a couple of prospects and move on. Keep Dunn till the midseason trading deadline. Then get the best deal you can and put the money saved towards a free agent or two for the 2009 season.

While it might seem like I'm throwing in the towel, the reality is what you're seeing now is what you have been watching the past two years. And no matter how many GMs and managers you fire, the product on the field won't improved until you make changes.

Hopefully the Reds can change their fortunes but if they keep the same motley crew, expect another brutal season.

CTA513
05-03-2008, 10:44 PM
Can't do anything with them unless they want to leave.

VR
05-03-2008, 10:45 PM
Not that bad...if you add them together, they're almost hitting .300 vs. lefties:beerme:

Krusty
05-03-2008, 10:47 PM
Can't do anything with them unless they want to leave.

If you're Junior, the only thing missing in a Hall of Fame career is the opportunity to play in a World Series. At this stage of his career, I think he would approve a trade to have that opportunity.

Come June, the Reds will have some teams that aren't on Dunn's no trade list. His inability to hit in the clutch is prime reason why he shouldn't get a multi-year deal for 15+ million a season.

Krusty
05-03-2008, 10:52 PM
One more note......if I was Bob Castanelli I would personally make a trip to the clubhouse after the game and be chewing some asses.

pahster
05-03-2008, 10:56 PM
One more note......if I was Bob Castanelli I would personally make a trip to the clubhouse after the game and be chewing some asses.

Why?

Spring~Fields
05-03-2008, 10:57 PM
One more note......if I was Bob Castanelli I would personally make a trip to the clubhouse after the game and be chewing some asses.

Could you imagine having to sign the checks for this, must be maddening.

I know it is taboo on RZ but I am tired of the Griffey/Dunn show too.

Krusty
05-03-2008, 10:59 PM
If I'm signing these guys' paychecks, would you be happy with a 12-19 performance so far this season?

How do you change the losing atmosphere if the players aren't changing their losing ways?

When it is time to go, it is time to go. And for alot of these players, it is time to remove the stench of losing the past several years.

reds44
05-03-2008, 11:00 PM
It'd be nice if the Reds had somebody in the minors to dip down into for help, but with the way both Bruce and even more so Rosales are scuffling, the Reds are stuck at this point.

Krusty
05-03-2008, 11:00 PM
Could you imagine having to sign the checks for this, must be maddening.

I know it is taboo on RZ but I am tired of the Griffey/Dunn show too.


It isn't taboo when you're telling the truth. I seriously question how committed Griffey and Dunn are to winning.

reds44
05-03-2008, 11:01 PM
Could you imagine having to sign the checks for this, must be maddening.

I know it is taboo on RZ but I am tired of the Griffey/Dunn show too.
Same. It's time to move on.

Krusty
05-03-2008, 11:02 PM
It'd be nice if the Reds had somebody in the minors to dip down into for help, but with the way both Bruce and even more so Rosales are scuffling, the Reds are stuck at this point.

I would rather lose with young players learning the ropes instead of overpriced veterans who don't seem to have a clue how to play the game.

Young players give you hope. Look at the Diamondbacks.

pahster
05-03-2008, 11:02 PM
If I'm signing these guys' paychecks, would you be happy with a 12-19 performance so far this season?

How do you change the losing atmosphere if the players aren't changing their losing ways?

When it is time to go, it is time to go. And for alot of these players, it is time to remove the stench of losing the past several years.

Cast has no one to blame but himself. He's the one who hired Krivsky.


It isn't taboo when you're telling the truth. I seriously question how committed Griffey and Dunn are to winning.

Poppycock.

kaldaniels
05-03-2008, 11:03 PM
Why?

If you have to ask, you'll never know. :p:

Krusty
05-03-2008, 11:05 PM
Cast has no one to blame but himself. He's the one who hired Krivsky.



Poppycock.

I still think Krivsky got a raw deal. He had the organization on the right track.

Look at the past five losing seasons and what two players have been on this roster consuming a quarter of the payroll........? Dunn and Griffey.

If you're not going to hold them accountable for their play on the field, then who do you hold accountable? How many GMs and managers do you have to fire to realize that the players determine the wins-losses during a season?

reds44
05-03-2008, 11:05 PM
I would rather lose with young players learning the ropes instead of overpriced veterans who don't seem to have a clue how to play the game.

Young players give you hope. Look at the Diamondbacks.
This is a tune a lot of us have been singing for years now, and I just do not see it happening, especially with BCast as the owner.

Maybe with Dunn and Griffey being free agents it will force our hand, but it seems like we are stuck trying to rebuild and contend at the same time. Either the Reds need to up their payroll with the big market clubs (which they won't/can't) or they need to rebuild (which they haven't). You think we would learn from our mistakes, but it seems like we don't. For the better part of the last decade we've been stuck in the middle.

Tony Cloninger
05-03-2008, 11:05 PM
It does remind me of the Bengals of the middle to late 90's now.... James Francis comes to mind..... they guy knew he could just half A it and no one was going to sit him or replace him.

Not that i think Dunn or Griffey are Francis like doggers.....just that with no near ready replacements on the horizon....there is more job security than there should be allowed on this team.

As far as why not? to BC chewing some A? Beacuse he cares and he has to pay and watch for this type of garbage.

Spring~Fields
05-03-2008, 11:06 PM
It isn't taboo when you're telling the truth. I seriously question how committed Griffey and Dunn are to winning.

I don't think that they have the ability to do what other great players do, Griffey is in decline, yeah he will get hot sometime, but he is in decline and AD is what he has been for a long time. I think Dunn, Griffey and the Reds each would be better off with a change in scenery.

Krusty
05-03-2008, 11:08 PM
Man, I get upset with my fantasy baseball team. I hate to be Bob C. watching this crap and asking myself why I'm paying these guys the money they are getting.

Tony Cloninger
05-03-2008, 11:08 PM
I think the other 20+ WK spent on bad back up players and washed up pitchers...is more of a problem than Griffey and Dunn....at least until this year.

If the next 30 games show more of the same...then you can add both of them to the list.

reds44
05-03-2008, 11:09 PM
I think the other 20+ WK spent on bad back up players and washed up pitchers...is more of a problem than Griffey and Dunn....at least until this year.

If the next 30 games show more of the same...then you can add both of them to the list.
Add them both together and this is what you get.

pahster
05-03-2008, 11:10 PM
I still think Krivsky got a raw deal. He had the organization on the right track.

Look at the past five losing seasons and what two players have been on this roster consuming a quarter of the payroll........? Dunn and Griffey.

If you're not going to hold them accountable for their play on the field, then who do you hold accountable? How many GMs and managers do you have to fire to realize that the players determine the wins-losses during a season?

I seem to recall Krivsky signing Dunn to an extension and then picking up his option.

They're slumping, Dunn likely more than Griffey, who is getting pretty old. It happens. They'll heat up. I doubt getting yelled at by an old fat man who never played is going to help.

Spring~Fields
05-03-2008, 11:11 PM
I would rather lose with young players learning the ropes instead of overpriced veterans who don't seem to have a clue how to play the game.

Young players give you hope. Look at the Diamondbacks.

After what we have been through the past seven or so seasons I would appreciate seeing some young, passionate, cock of the walk can do young players with some competitive fire.

Krusty
05-03-2008, 11:11 PM
If is true that Cormier's salary was paid by the A's in the Denorfia trade, then the two salaries the Reds ate were Castro and Stanton's. Patterson was a Dusty Baker recommendation.

But when you're paying $25 million on Griffey and Dunn and they can't drive runners in scoring position, I think Bob C. can find cheaper options that will give the same lousy production.

Spring~Fields
05-03-2008, 11:14 PM
I think the other 20+ WK spent on bad back up players and washed up pitchers

He did do quite a bit of that, getting poor supporting cast for the team, that hurt the Reds too, and us fans.

I hope that Jocketty makes some good moves.

kaldaniels
05-03-2008, 11:15 PM
I seem to recall Krivsky signing Dunn to an extension and then picking up his option.

They're slumping, Dunn likely more than Griffey, who is getting pretty old. It happens. They'll heat up. I doubt getting yelled at by an old fat man who never played is going to help.

I agree they'll heat up. However I know some have said you can't blame 2 players for a teams poor performance...but plug an average #3 hitter and an average #5 hitter into the Reds lineup for the month of April and I'd conservately give them 3 more wins...still not a great record but it wouldn't be such a disaster.

Krusty
05-03-2008, 11:16 PM
I think come Monday we could see some moves by Jockerty.

I think Bob C. will push Jockerty to make some changes.

CTA513
05-03-2008, 11:16 PM
Man, I get upset with my fantasy baseball team. I hate to be Bob C. watching this crap and asking myself why I'm paying these guys the money they are getting.

He should get mad at himself for liking Dunn so much that he keeps re-signing him.

kaldaniels
05-03-2008, 11:19 PM
And again...players slump...its a fact of life. I just wish there wasn't such a stigma regarding moving Dunn and Jr around in the lineup and/or sitting them for a few games. Tonights lineup was a slight step in the right direction.

BCubb2003
05-03-2008, 11:19 PM
But when you're paying $25 million on Griffey and Dunn and they can't drive runners in scoring position, I think Bob C. can find cheaper options that will give the same lousy production.
__________________
I Love It When Adam Dunn Makes Me Eat Crow.

I feel your pain, Krusty.

Spring~Fields
05-03-2008, 11:20 PM
When it is time to go, it is time to go. And for alot of these players, it is time to remove the stench of losing the past several years.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Raisor
05-03-2008, 11:27 PM
I agree they'll heat up. However I know some have said you can't blame 2 players for a teams poor performance...but plug an average #3 hitter and an average #5 hitter into the Reds lineup for the month of April and I'd conservately give them 3 more wins...still not a great record but it wouldn't be such a disaster.

I highly doubt it would be enough for 3 wins.

NL #3
365/499
Reds
321/381

NL #5
342/462
Reds
392/426

While you'd be making an upgrade at #3, #5 would be even or better.

Raisor
05-03-2008, 11:30 PM
The idea that it's Dunn and JR's fault that the Reds haven't had a winning record in 7 years is the crazy, especially considering how bad the pitching has been in that time.

kaldaniels
05-03-2008, 11:31 PM
I highly doubt it would be enough for 3 wins.

NL #3
365/499
Reds
321/381

NL #5
342/462
Reds
392/426

While you'd be making an upgrade at #3, #5 would be even or better.

We could go in circles arguing about how many wins it would have resulted in, of course it was just an off the cuff remark with (unfortuanelty) no statistical evidence (uh oh). However...the point is...if Dunn and Jr had played to there typical past capablities (which I believe are above league average, I truly feel things wouldn't be nearly as dire.

kaldaniels
05-03-2008, 11:32 PM
The idea that it's Dunn and JR's fault that the Reds haven't had a winning record in 7 years is the crazy, especially considering how bad the pitching has been in that time.

I hope you weren't implying thats what I said...because I never have. I just wish when they arent producing (anyone in here disagree on that???) they could be shifted in the lineup or sit down for a while.

Raisor
05-03-2008, 11:34 PM
We could go in circles arguing about how many wins it would have resulted in, of course it was just an off the cuff remark with (unfortuanelty) no statistical evidence (uh oh). However...the point is...if Dunn and Jr had played to there typical past capablities (which I believe are above league average, I truly feel things wouldn't be nearly as dire.

You'll get no argument that the team would be playing better if Junior and Dunn were playing at their normal level.

You will get an argument if you say that if you plug in the "average" NL 3&5 player there would be much of a difference.

Raisor
05-03-2008, 11:35 PM
I hope you weren't implying thats what I said...because I never have. I just wish when they arent producing (anyone in here disagree on that???) they could be shifted in the lineup or sit down for a while.

Didn't say that YOU said that. There's plenty of people on the interweb that DO say that.

kaldaniels
05-03-2008, 11:43 PM
Fair enough. I will concede a poorly worded example to you...but that doesn't change the fact that if Jr and Dunn continue their slump and continue to hit 3 and 5...this team is going nowwhere. Now a variety of things can happen to change that scenario and thats a whole new debate.

This may have been the worst month of the Jr/Dunn combo I have seen in 7 years...so we have the 2 best hitters on the team, 2 of the highest paid players on the team, in 2 of the most important postitions in the batting order who are frankly playing terrible...so yes, the finger needs to be pointed at them. Sorry.

Redsfaithful
05-03-2008, 11:44 PM
One more note......if I was Bob Castanelli I would personally make a trip to the clubhouse after the game and be chewing some asses.

That'd be a really quick way to become a laughingstock of an owner. Although I guess Castellini is already well on his way after firing his GM three weeks into the season.

kaldaniels
05-03-2008, 11:46 PM
Over/under posts in this thread...250

George Anderson
05-03-2008, 11:48 PM
One more note......if I was Bob Castanelli I would personally make a trip to the clubhouse after the game and be chewing some asses.

I think if BC did that then he would get the same response George Steinbrenner used to get when he pulled the same nonsense. The players would simply laugh at him because they see him as simply the guy that writes the checks and disregard anything he would have to say baseball related.

pahster
05-03-2008, 11:50 PM
And again...players slump...its a fact of life. I just wish there wasn't such a stigma regarding moving Dunn and Jr around in the lineup and/or sitting them for a few games. Tonights lineup was a slight step in the right direction.

I have no problem with moving them around or giving them a day or so off. I'd rather see Dunn hit 2nd than 6th, though. He's not hitting for any power whatsoever, but he is getting on base.

MWM
05-03-2008, 11:51 PM
Unreal. After last off-season, even the majority of those who have never cared for Dunn were happy with him and thought it was a no-brainer to extend his contract. One bad month, and now he has to go.

Raisor
05-03-2008, 11:52 PM
I have no problem with moving them around or giving them a day or so off. I'd rather see Dunn hit 2nd than 6th, though. He's not hitting for any power whatsoever, but he is getting on base.

That's it exactly. If it was Dunn's OBP that was low, I'd be more worried. Does anyone really expect Dunn's power to go missing all year or even that much farther into the season?

Raisor
05-03-2008, 11:53 PM
Unreal. After last off-season, even the majority of those who have never cared for Dunn were happy with him and thought it was a no-brainer to extend his contract. One bad month, and now he has to go.

Heck, even in that "bad month" he went .396 .415 .811

WMR
05-03-2008, 11:55 PM
These threads are going to be awesome to re-visit a couple months from now.

edabbs44
05-03-2008, 11:55 PM
I think if BC did that then he would get the same response George Steinbrenner used to get when he pulled the same nonsense. The players would simply laugh at him because they see him as simply the guy that writes the checks and disregard anything he would have to say baseball related.

In most arenas laughing at the owner would get you a pink slip. Shouldn't be much of a difference here. Castellini has every right to speak his mind.

kaldaniels
05-03-2008, 11:56 PM
Heck, even in that "bad month" he went .396 .415 .811

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?sort=avg&split=0&league=nl&season=2008&seasonType=2&type=reg&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&minpa=0&hand=a&pos=lf

That page as of today speaks for it self regarding Dunn's play so far this year. I like the guy but he is playing awful.

BCubb2003
05-03-2008, 11:57 PM
There was a time when we thought the core of the team was Mike Cameron and Pokey Reese. Then, the core was Dunn, Kearns and Felipe Lopez. For a long time we've thought of Dunn and Griffey as the core of the team -- what you think of when you think of the Reds. If after several years, the core isn't making it happen, then you have to let go.

There have certainly been many more variables: Schott, Allen, Lindner, Castellini ... Bowden, the temps, O'Brien, Krivsky ... McKeon, Boone, Miley, Narron, McKanin, Baker ... So you can't put it all on a core that didn't make things happen.

But where do you go from here? The best starting pitching in ages, a decent bullpen for a change, and what? Jay Bruce and who?

To paraphrase a noted thinker:

Blow it up, Walt. Make it yours?

dabvu2498
05-03-2008, 11:58 PM
These threads are going to be awesome to re-visit a couple months from now.

When they're still 6 games below 500? :D

kaldaniels
05-03-2008, 11:58 PM
Putting things in perspective again...Ryan Howard is hitting .176. I don't follow the Phillies...but I certainly hope they are tinkering with the lineup so he gets going. Thats all I am asking of the Reds and Dunn/Jr.

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 12:00 AM
Heck, even in that "bad month" he went .396 .415 .811

I think everyone can agree that he had a crap month, no matter what stat you throw out. His OPS doesn't nearly tell the tale.

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 12:01 AM
Putting things in perspective again...Ryan Howard is hitting .176. I don't follow the Phillies...but I certainly hope they are tinkering with the lineup so he gets going. Thats all I am asking of the Reds and Dunn/Jr.

Forget the lineup. The hitter needs to hit.

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 12:02 AM
Forget the lineup. The hitter needs to hit.

Sorry...I should have said "until" instead of "so"...know what I mean? My bad.

George Anderson
05-04-2008, 12:03 AM
In most arenas laughing at the owner would get you a pink slip. Shouldn't be much of a difference here. Castellini has every right to speak his mind.

I agree he has the right to speak his mind, but in the clubhouse the players are not going to take him seriously as some one who knows the game of baseball. Just because he signs the checks doesn't mean his opinion on baseball is respected by the players.

I doubt if any player will actually laugh out loud at BC, but even if they did the players all have guaranteed contracts so it wouldn't matter if BC cut them or not .

Raisor
05-04-2008, 12:03 AM
I think everyone can agree that he had a crap month, no matter what stat you throw out. His OPS doesn't nearly tell the tale.

He had a crap month for Dunn. But it's not like he was Juan Castro out there. But he's had worse months. Any time you can get on base at nearly a .400 clip, you're at least doing SOMETHING productive.

Like I said, is there anyone out there that thinks his power isn't going to come around?

WMR
05-04-2008, 12:03 AM
When they're still 6 games below 500? :D

I actually wouldn't be surprised if they've fallen even further behind, but it will be abundantly clear that Adam Dunn is nowhere close to being the reason as to why.

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 12:08 AM
He had a crap month for Dunn. But it's not like he was Juan Castro out there. But he's had worse months. Any time you can get on base at nearly a .400 clip, you're at least doing SOMETHING productive.

Like I said, is there anyone out there that thinks his power isn't going to come around?

It's sad when we need to resort to "It's not like he was Juan Castro" as a way to back up the supposed best hitter on the team.

WMR
05-04-2008, 12:09 AM
It's sad when we need to resort to "It's not like he was Juan Castro" as a way to back up the supposed best hitter on the team.

The best player in the game has had worse slumps than this.

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 12:09 AM
I agree he has the right to speak his mind, but in the clubhouse the players are not going to take him seriously as some one who knows the game of baseball. Just because he signs the checks doesn't mean his opinion on baseball is respected by the players.

I doubt if any player will actually laugh out loud at BC, but even if they did the players all have guaranteed contracts so it wouldn't matter if BC cut them or not .

There are a couple of guaranteed contacts on this team that would matter (for the benefit of the team) if BC cut them.

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 12:14 AM
He had a crap month for Dunn. But it's not like he was Juan Castro out there. But he's had worse months. Any time you can get on base at nearly a .400 clip, you're at least doing SOMETHING productive.

Like I said, is there anyone out there that thinks his power isn't going to come around?

I think most sane people around here will agree...the power will come. But do you keep throwing him out there every day hitting #5 until it happens?

Raisor
05-04-2008, 12:14 AM
It's sad when we need to resort to "It's not like he was Juan Castro" as a way to back up the supposed best hitter on the team.

By the way most around here are acting, you'd think he was hitting like Castro.


Once again, is there anyone that thinks his power won't come back?

Raisor
05-04-2008, 12:16 AM
I think most sane people around here will agree...the power will come. But do you keep throwing him out there every day hitting #5 until it happens?

I'd rather he was higher up in the lineup. I've always loved him in the 2-slot, career .388 .554 .942 . Good place for his OBP.

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 12:17 AM
I'd rather he was higher up in the lineup. I've always loved him in the 2-slot, career .388 .554 .942 . Good place for his OBP.

Let's do it. I'm with you on that.

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 12:18 AM
Let's do it. I'm with you on that.

That settled...what do we do with Jr?

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 12:19 AM
By the way most around here are acting, you'd think he was hitting like Castro.


Once again, is there anyone that thinks his power won't come back?

Do you think it is a lock that he ends up with his typical power numbers?

His .400 SLG in April of this year is the worst he's had in a month since the debacle known as September 2006. Before that, May of 2004.

This is uncharted territory for Dunn.

missionhockey21
05-04-2008, 12:23 AM
Unreal. After last off-season, even the majority of those who have never cared for Dunn were happy with him and thought it was a no-brainer to extend his contract. One bad month, and now he has to go.
And so goes RedsZone, loyalty is completely thrown out the window, the ship is set on fire and everyone rapidly swims to the safest scapegoat flotation device. Given Dunn's current value, it really wouldn't be the wisest time to start shopping him.... not to mention he still has a month and a half guaranteed with the Reds (and in that time period, any proposed trade ideas or thoughts could look completely silly from either side.)

I wonder how fast they'll be able to salvage the burnt sunken ship once Dunn finds his stroke and goes through a surge to nearly compensate for his early season woes (it wouldn't be the first time we've seen the up and down from him.) Either way, Jay Bruce, you're a brave man and I hope you know how to run from the occasional pitchfork and torch yielding citizens of Redsland.

Raisor
05-04-2008, 12:24 AM
Do you think it is a lock that he ends up with his typical power numbers?

His .400 SLG in April of this year is the worst he's had in a month since the debacle known as September 2006. Before that, May of 2004.

This is uncharted territory for Dunn.

Aug of 05-.233 .384 .411 .795

Total 05-247 .387 .540 .927

Reason why it's so notable this year is that it's starting the season. If this was going on in July, the outcry wouldn't be nearly as bad, since his season total would be "hiding" the bad month from the "average" fan.

CTA513
05-04-2008, 12:25 AM
Putting things in perspective again...Ryan Howard is hitting .176. I don't follow the Phillies...but I certainly hope they are tinkering with the lineup so he gets going. Thats all I am asking of the Reds and Dunn/Jr.

I knew Howard had been doing pretty bad, but I just looked on MLB.com and saw that hes up to 45 Ks so far this season.

:yikes:

WMR
05-04-2008, 12:25 AM
And so goes RedsZone, loyalty is completely thrown out the window, the ship is set on fire and everyone rapidly swims to the safest scapegoat flotation device. Given Dunn's current value, it really wouldn't be the wisest time to start shopping him.... not to mention he still has a month and a half guaranteed with the Reds (and in that time period, any proposed trade ideas or thoughts could look completely silly from either side.)

I wonder how fast they'll be able to salvage the burnt sunken ship once Dunn finds his stroke and goes through a surge to nearly compensate for his early season woes (it wouldn't be the first time we've seen the up and down from him.) Either way, Jay Bruce, you're a brave man and I hope you know how to run from the occasional pitchfork and torch yielding citizens of Redsland.

Just peruse the May 3rd minor league update thread wherein Bruce is labeled the "biggest disappointment in the minor leagues." :lol:

BCubb2003
05-04-2008, 12:25 AM
I do think it's interesting that Marty, Thom, Jeff and the sportswriters say there's a problem with the 3 4 5 hitters, then moments later talk about how nobody's getting on ahead of them anyway. Sounds like there's a 1 2 3 4 5 problem.

You watch... the prescription will be Ryan Freel.

Raisor
05-04-2008, 12:26 AM
And so goes RedsZone, loyalty is completely thrown out the window, the ship is set on fire and everyone rapidly swims to the safest scapegoat flotation device. Given Dunn's current value, it really wouldn't be the wisest time to start shopping him.... not to mention he still has a month and a half guaranteed with the Reds (and in that time period, any proposed trade ideas or thoughts could look completely silly from either side.)

.

Heck, if I was the Reds, I'd be trying to lock him up right now. Maybe get an artificial savings on the contract.

WMR
05-04-2008, 12:27 AM
I do think it's interesting that Marty, Thom, Jeff and the sportswriters say there's a problem with the 3 4 5 hitters, then moments later talk about how nobody's getting on ahead of them anyway. Sounds like there's a 1 2 3 4 5 problem.

You watch... the prescription will be Ryan Freel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apMR_q3RHIA

dabvu2498
05-04-2008, 12:28 AM
Reason why it's so notable this year is that it's starting the season.

True, but the counterpoint to that might be that Dunn typically starts quickly. Even including this year, his career March/April OPS is .993.

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 12:28 AM
July of 05-.233 .384 .411 .795

Total 05-247 .387 .540 .927

Reason why it's so notable this year is that it's starting the season. If this was going on in July, the outcry wouldn't be nearly as bad, since his season total would be "hiding" the bad month from the "average" fan.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6763&year=2005

eh?

this shows 278 391 701 1.092 july

BCubb2003
05-04-2008, 12:29 AM
As they told Ralph Kiner, "We can finish last without you."

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 12:31 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6763&year=2005

eh?

this shows 278 391 701 1.092 july

I see...I think you meant August.

RFS62
05-04-2008, 12:33 AM
As they told Ralph Kiner, "We can finish last without you."



I honestly believe they both will be gone by the end of the season.

SteelSD
05-04-2008, 12:38 AM
Heck, even in that "bad month" he went .396 .415 .811

Yep. That's "slump-proofing". And it's a sight better than these April 2008 performances:

Player A: .353 OBP/.437 SLG
Player B: .315 OBP/.411 SLG
Player C: .364 OBP/.385 SLG
Player D: .372 OBP/.337 SLG

And it's a LOT better than this:

Player E: .298 OBP/.347 SLG
Player F: .300 OBP/.375 SLG
Player G: .305 OBP/.314 SLG
Player H: .283 OBP/.250 SLG
Player I: .302 OBP/.340 SLG

Players A through I have combined for the following hardware:

Rookie of the Year: 2
Most Valuable Player: 2
All Star Games: 36
Silver Slugger: 22

Those are the numbers in April 2008 for...

Player A: Vlad Guererro
Player B: Jason Giambi
Player C: Carlos Beltran
Player D: Nick Swisher
Player E: Ryan Howard
Player F: David Ortiz
Player G: Gary Sheffield
Player H: Andruw Jones
Player I: Travis Hafner

I guess their respective teams should just get rid of all of those guys?

I swear, I quite often wonder if some folks really understand how this whole "baseball" thing really works. It's a game of streaks and randomness, even from the best players. The hitter who consistently produces what fans want every day of the season simply isn't out there. He never has been. And so it goes...

guttle11
05-04-2008, 12:38 AM
For the first time in my life, I don't think I really care about the Reds on a daily basis. Everyone has a breaking point, and I'm pretty much at mine, maybe a tad over.

I'm not throwing blame to the players...they are who they are. SOme are good, some aren't. I put the blame on those who run the show. This is a completely incompetent franchise, and it starts at the very top.

Frankly, I feel insulted by the upper management. Later, rinse, repeat when you're a fan of Cincy pro sports. My fandom won't go anywhere by sheer wins and losses. I'm not some lemming that only cares about winning today. If going young and building is the right thing to do, which I believe it is, then I'm all for it...even if it takes 5 years or more of getting the tar beat of of you.

Please, stop throwing the "we're going to win now or else" thing at me. That doesn't impress me. That's not why I'm a fan. Stop insulting my intelligence.

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 12:39 AM
As they told Ralph Kiner, "We can finish last without you."

Yep. I can't get over how the team has had a "win now" mentality for three years now and this is the current product.

Just awful.

TeamBoone
05-04-2008, 12:40 AM
I seriously question how committed Griffey and Dunn are to winning.

For Pete's sake! You act like whatever it is that isn't clicking for them is being done on purpose!

Do you think they want to fail? Do you think they're playing/hitting badly is because that's what they want?

From what I read both arrive early at the ballpark and are working hard.

Granted, they're not doing well at the moment, but not committed to winning? That's a stretch, don't you think?

If one could hit at will then they'd all be superstars.

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 12:41 AM
Quick aside...who is this guy calling into wlw right now saying "Why aren't they playing Hopper" and Doc has to clue him in that Norris is on the DL...do these people even follow the team? :thumbdown

Raisor
05-04-2008, 12:42 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=6763&year=2005

eh?

this shows 278 391 701 1.092 july

Whoops, looks like that was Aug of 05. I'll go back and fix it.

KronoRed
05-04-2008, 12:43 AM
I think most sane people around here will agree...the power will come. But do you keep throwing him out there every day hitting #5 until it happens?

Of course you do, the other options are junk.

Raisor
05-04-2008, 12:47 AM
I guess their respective teams should just get rid of all of those guys?



It's what happens when people just pay attention to "their" team.

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 12:48 AM
Of course you do, the other options are junk.

Now I'm just throwing out ideas here...but why not put Votto in the 5 spot. Thats not junk to me.

KronoRed
05-04-2008, 12:48 AM
Now I'm just throwing out ideas here...but why not put Votto in the 5 spot. Thats not junk to me.

Put him 4th or 3rd.

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 12:49 AM
Those are the numbers in April 2008 for...

Player A: Vlad Guererro
Player B: Jason Giambi
Player C: Carlos Beltran
Player D: Nick Swisher
Player E: Ryan Howard
Player F: David Ortiz
Player G: Gary Sheffield
Player H: Andruw Jones
Player I: Travis Hafner

I guess their respective teams should just get rid of all of those guys?

Here's the catch...none of the respective teams for which the above players play are seven games out of first already. Dunn doesn't have Manny backing him up. Or Utley. Or ARod. Or Cabrera. Or Wright. These guys do and, since they are part of a better overall team, they can afford to have a bad month.

Dunn is a HUGE part of the Reds offense and overall roster, probably more than any of the players named above are of their teams. That's a large reason why he is under such a microscope. This team cannot afford for him to go into hiding for a month at a time.

WMR
05-04-2008, 12:50 AM
The point, ed, is that EVERY player goes through periods, some worse, than what Dunn is enduring right now. There are no exceptions.

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 12:52 AM
Put him 4th or 3rd.

Votto 4. EE 5???

I'm all for Dunn batting 2nd.

I won't go screaming this idea and defending it to the death...but why not try it.

Part of the problem lies with the fact that there is not a solid leadoff man, which makes it hard to have an ideal,logical lineup.

WMR
05-04-2008, 12:53 AM
Keppinger is the perfect lead-off choice for this team.

KronoRed
05-04-2008, 12:55 AM
Keppinger is the perfect lead-off choice for this team.

Yep, just because he doesn't steal lot of bases shouldn't disqualify him, he gets on base.

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 12:56 AM
The point, ed, is that EVERY player goes through periods, some worse, than what Dunn is enduring right now. There are no exceptions.

Of course all players slump. But I don't think anyone is looking at this month in a vacuum and basing their opinions just on April '08.

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 12:57 AM
Keppinger is the perfect lead-off choice for this team.

Kepp
Dunn
BPhil
Votto
EE
Jr
CF
C
P

That would set the table often for BP,Votto,and EE...with Jr hitting behind them. You can debate the CF/C batting 7/8 or even EE vs BP vs Votto slots but something along these lines could really kickstart the offense.

Raisor
05-04-2008, 12:58 AM
Of course all players slump. But I don't think anyone is looking at this month in a vacuum and basing their opinions just on April '08.

Are you new to the interwebs?

;)

WMR
05-04-2008, 01:00 AM
Kepp
Dunn
EE
Votto
Phillips
Junior
Bako
P
Patterson

That would be the bees knees.

Raisor
05-04-2008, 01:01 AM
Every time Dunn doesn't come up in the 1st inning, God kills a puppy.

KronoRed
05-04-2008, 01:01 AM
Kepp
Dunn
EE
Votto
Phillips
Junior
Bako
P
Patterson

That would be the bees knees.

Fax it to Dusty.

WMR
05-04-2008, 01:02 AM
Every time Dunn doesn't come up in the 1st inning, God kills a puppy.

Lots of dead puppies on Dusty, Narron, Miley, and Boone's heads.

WMR
05-04-2008, 01:03 AM
Fax it to Dusty.

You think Dusty knows how to operate a fax machine? :D :eek:

kaldaniels
05-04-2008, 01:06 AM
Kepp
Dunn
EE
Votto
Phillips
Junior
Bako
P
Patterson

That would be the bees knees.

Are we basing that lineup on current MVP candidate Paul Bako or career .236 batting Paul Bako. Just sayin :p:

WMR
05-04-2008, 01:07 AM
Are we basing that lineup on current MVP candidate Paul Bako or career .236 batting Paul Bako. Just sayin :p:

MVP Bako of course. :cool: ;)

I'll still take career .236 Bako over David "The Butcher" Ross.

I really, really hate the way Ross calls a game, and his defense is putrid.

Offensive production from our catcher is likely to be a push considering who all we have in the fold.

VR
05-04-2008, 01:11 AM
The idea that it's Dunn and JR's fault that the Reds haven't had a winning record in 7 years is the crazy, especially considering how bad the pitching has been in that time.

They only have a small share, very small share.

But, it's now 2008, and the Reds have a different model built around quality pitching. Paying two, one-dimensional players 25M just doesn't work in that model....especially when one of them will continue to be placed in a run producing spot in the order because of their HOF status.

vaticanplum
05-04-2008, 01:23 AM
Griffey is a tetchy and unusual situation. He's a leftover superstar who genuinely hasn't outlasted his playing days yet. in the field he's a mess, but at the plate he has moments of brilliance. But they're fewer and farther between and I'm guessing that stats would probably show me that they're not worth the slumps. On the other hand, he's a superstar. I do believe he still brings people into the ballpark. I love him to pieces. It would break my heart to have to face the reality of him being traded to another team because someone is willing to give him a chance at postseason baseball that the Reds can't...but on some level, deep down (depending on the return), I would respect the Reds for it. I am PERFECTLY HAPPY with him staying, but as much as it would break my heart I know that it would mean the team putting the money where its mouth is in terms of producing a winning team and I have to support a team which makes a decision as difficult as that.

Dunn is the polar opposite situation for me. Facts must be faced that Dunn has some serious weaknesses as a ballplayer. His defense doesn't bother me so much as long as he's ensconsed in left field, it really doesn't. But he does slump. It's not just a matter of this April. he goes through serious slumps at inopportune times. I don't question his dedication or his work ethic as some do, but I do honestly question his focus. I think he's a little too eager to please for his own good, which leads to a slipshod and inconsistent approach at the plate. You can blame poor management for that -- and I do -- but a stronger player would stand up to it.

However. Junior is a case of a management giving every opportunity to a ballplayer whose best time has past. All I see when I look at Dunn is a case of management -- and a public -- determined to rob him of opportunities for his best possible future. I got to the point long ago where I resigned myself to Dunn being traded, because he's so very good that I want him to have the best career he can. And that isn't happening here and hasn't been for a few years. Send him to a team that can properly use him. Get a couple of good prospects in return. Spend the extra money on pitching. In the end, it may well result in the best situation for everybody.

But if the Reds trade Dunn because of his lack of production, it will be no secret respect coming out of heartbreak for me. It will be a complete lack of respect coming out of my understanding that this may in fact be a very good move for everybody. I cannot -- I cannot get behind a team that misuses its best player and then turns him into a scapegoat when the team itself cannot produce because it hasn't been well-constructed. To me that is the ultimate in laziness and immaturity. It's also a clear indication of a mentality that will not win, period. It's a team that is bent on pointing fingers and messing with things it should leave alone while completely ignoring gaping holes that are killing this team. If that's not the definition of a loser, I don't know what is. This team hasn't been losing for eight years because it doesn't have the right pieces. It's been losing for eight years because it consistently takes the easy way out in recognizing where the good pieces are and how the bad ones need to be fixed.

paintmered
05-04-2008, 01:25 AM
Of course all players slump. But I don't think anyone is looking at this month in a vacuum and basing their opinions just on April '08.

I'd say that's exactly what's happening. And VP, that was a fantastic post.

Raisor
05-04-2008, 01:27 AM
Let's take a look at the NL average and the Reds numbers at all the lineup positions and see where the offensive problems are really at.

NL-CIN

OPS

1. 778 - 736
2. 713 - 658
3. 864 - 702
4. 833 - 757
5. 804 - 818
6. 718 - 797
7. 721 - 915
8. 632 - 773
9. 496 - 416

overall
NL- 737
CIN-728

Personally, it looks like it's the top 4 in the lineup that's killing the Reds offense, yet it's Dunn that gets the lion's share of the blame.

VR
05-04-2008, 01:33 AM
Let's take a look at the NL average and the Reds numbers at all the lineup positions and see where the offensive problems are really at.

NL-CIN

OPS

1. 778 - 736
2. 713 - 658
3. 864 - 702
4. 833 - 757
5. 804 - 818
6. 718 - 797
7. 721 - 915
8. 632 - 773
9. 496 - 416

overall
NL- 737
CIN-728

Personally, it looks like it's the top 4 in the lineup that's killing the Reds offense, yet it's Dunn that gets the lion's share of the blame.


How many of the top 4 are making 13M per year, and providing absolutely no other value on the bases or in the field?

WMR
05-04-2008, 01:42 AM
How many of the top 4 are making 13M per year, and providing absolutely no other value on the bases or in the field?

What's Dunn's .OPS during his "slump"?

Is it his fault he's miscast in a role that could otherwise maximize his positives, even while slumping (Batting Second)?

Raisor
05-04-2008, 01:54 AM
How many of the top 4 are making 13M per year, and providing absolutely no other value on the bases or in the field?

I MIGHT buy that, except Dunn was blamed even when he wasn't making any money.

Dunn's got a career 896 OPS with a 906 OPS the last three seasons, and he gets no respect.

AmarilloRed
05-04-2008, 01:57 AM
I think a good case can be made that Bruce will be replacing Griffey later this year or next year, so seek a trade for Griffey. Adam Dunn is another story. His value in free agency should be largely determined by the sort of year he has this year. A good overall year like he had last year will get him a good deal in free agency. A bad year like the one he currently seems to be having might depress his value. I would think there is probably an equal 50/50 chance Dunn will either get extended, or be traded at the trade deadline.

Yachtzee
05-04-2008, 01:59 AM
Griffey is a tetchy and unusual situation. He's a leftover superstar who genuinely hasn't outlasted his playing days yet. in the field he's a mess, but at the plate he has moments of brilliance. But they're fewer and farther between and I'm guessing that stats would probably show me that they're not worth the slumps. On the other hand, he's a superstar. I do believe he still brings people into the ballpark. I love him to pieces. It would break my heart to have to face the reality of him being traded to another team because someone is willing to give him a chance at postseason baseball that the Reds can't...but on some level, deep down (depending on the return), I would respect the Reds for it. I am PERFECTLY HAPPY with him staying, but as much as it would break my heart I know that it would mean the team putting the money where its mouth is in terms of producing a winning team and I have to support a team which makes a decision as difficult as that.

Dunn is the polar opposite situation for me. Facts must be faced that Dunn has some serious weaknesses as a ballplayer. His defense doesn't bother me so much as long as he's ensconsed in left field, it really doesn't. But he does slump. It's not just a matter of this April. he goes through serious slumps at inopportune times. I don't question his dedication or his work ethic as some do, but I do honestly question his focus. I think he's a little too eager to please for his own good, which leads to a slipshod and inconsistent approach at the plate. You can blame poor management for that -- and I do -- but a stronger player would stand up to it.

However. Junior is a case of a management giving every opportunity to a ballplayer whose best time has past. All I see when I look at Dunn is a case of management -- and a public -- determined to rob him of opportunities for his best possible future. I got to the point long ago where I resigned myself to Dunn being traded, because he's so very good that I want him to have the best career he can. And that isn't happening here and hasn't been for a few years. Send him to a team that can properly use him. Get a couple of good prospects in return. Spend the extra money on pitching. In the end, it may well result in the best situation for everybody.

But if the Reds trade Dunn because of his lack of production, it will be no secret respect coming out of heartbreak for me. It will be a complete lack of respect coming out of my understanding that this may in fact be a very good move for everybody. I cannot -- I cannot get behind a team that misuses its best player and then turns him into a scapegoat when the team itself cannot produce because it hasn't been well-constructed. To me that is the ultimate in laziness and immaturity. It's also a clear indication of a mentality that will not win, period. It's a team that is bent on pointing fingers and messing with things it should leave alone while completely ignoring gaping holes that are killing this team. If that's not the definition of a loser, I don't know what is. This team hasn't been losing for eight years because it doesn't have the right pieces. It's been losing for eight years because it consistently takes the easy way out in recognizing where the good pieces are and how the bad ones need to be fixed.

Personally, I feel like every season with Griffey and Dunn is like Groundhog's Day. Reds fire manager, hire new manager. New manager insists on batting Griffey 3rd and Dunn 5th. Meanwhile, new manager bats low OBP batters at 1 because they have "speed" (but can't steal first) and guys who can "get 'em over" at 2 (but who really hit into a lot of DPs). It takes them half the season to realize that Dunn should probably bat at 2 and Griffey at 4. Dunn and Griffey then catch fire. By the time they realize the error of their ways and correct it, it's too late to save them and they get fired. New manager starts next season with Griffey at 3 and Dunn at 5.

I think the real problem with this team and with Krivsky and O'Brien before him was that the FO has a seriously bad propensity to spend a lot of money on bad players. The fans put the burden of this teams wins and losses on Dunn and Griffey, yet it is the FO that has consistently failed to use the rest of its money wisely in building a team around these two guys. Way too much is spent on washed up bullpen fodder and journeymen fielders whose reputations exceed their performance. Corey Patterson is only the latest example of this folly.

VR
05-04-2008, 02:00 AM
What's Dunn's .OPS during his "slump"?

Is it his fault he's miscast in a role that could otherwise maximize his positives, even while slumping (Batting Second)?

I appreciate his very high number of walks....even though the vast majority is with no one on base.

His situational ops is a tragedy during the slump, and therein lies the concern. When you slump and can't throw in a clutch hit, big catch, crucial sb....it does become magnified.

He is every NL loogy's 'you know what', and that is an incredible liability as well

He has not improved in any single aspect of his game in 8 years.

I also appreciate him being miscast at 5th, when he need to be at 2nd or 7th.

Dunn becomes much more valuable if Griff is out of the picture and the OF defense goes from tragic to average or just below.

I don't doubt his power will return....but for an aging player that is showing signs of decline, while taking the lion's share of a small market teams payroll....I'd get something for him while you 'might' be able to.

WMR
05-04-2008, 02:01 AM
28 is "aging" now?? His next 4 years should be his peak seasons in terms of production.

VR
05-04-2008, 02:02 AM
I MIGHT buy that, except Dunn was blamed even when he wasn't making any money.



That's just the RZ way...you can't change that mojo :deadhorse

Raisor
05-04-2008, 02:05 AM
....but for an aging player that is showing signs of decline,

He's coming off a year where he OPSed .949.

VR
05-04-2008, 02:05 AM
28 is "aging" now?? His next 4 years should be his peak seasons in terms of production.

Adam neither has the body nor the work ethic to be in this league til he's 40....I don't think that's a mystery

Yachtzee
05-04-2008, 02:06 AM
I appreciate his very high number of walks....even though the vast majority is with no one on base.

His situational ops is a tragedy during the slump, and therein lies the concern. When you slump and can't throw in a clutch hit, big catch, crucial sb....it does become magnified.

He is every NL loogy's 'you know what', and that is an incredible liability as well

He has not improved in any single aspect of his game in 8 years.

I also appreciate him being miscast at 5th, when he need to be at 2nd or 7th.

Dunn becomes much more valuable if Griff is out of the picture and the OF defense goes from tragic to average or just below.

I don't doubt his power will return....but for an aging player that is showing signs of decline, while taking the lion's share of a small market teams payroll....I'd get something for him while you 'might' be able to.

I think he becomes more valuable if the Reds move him up in the lineup to where his high OBP helps the team and the Reds stop throwing money down the toilet signing journeymen players probably past their prime to bad contracts. Surround Dunn with a team of players who complement his talents and putting everyone in a position to succeed and you do much better.

WMR
05-04-2008, 02:08 AM
Adam neither has the body nor the work ethic to be in this league til he's 40....I don't think that's a mystery

It's clearly not a mystery, but 40 is a far cry from ages 28-32.

Raisor
05-04-2008, 02:10 AM
Adam neither has the body nor the work ethic to be in this league til he's 40....I don't think that's a mystery

Once again, he's coming off a year where he OPSed 949. A month long slump isn't any kind of ssign that he's falling due to age.

Yachtzee
05-04-2008, 02:13 AM
It's clearly not a mystery, but 40 is a far cry from ages 28-32.

How many players make it to 40 anyway? Dunn makes people so manic around here. If he's going good, it's time to lock him up long term. If he's going "poorly" (and by poorly I mean hitting less than .260 with at least 1 K a game, regardless of what other numbers say), it's time to get the torches and pitchforks. He's not the perfect player, but he's one of the few players in the lineup who has skills that produce runs even when he's "slumping." The problems with this team most certainly lie elsewhere.

KronoRed
05-04-2008, 02:13 AM
This is the most ridiculous thread I think we've had here in months.

VR
05-04-2008, 02:14 AM
Once again, he's coming off a year where he OPSed 949. A month long slump isn't any kind of ssign that he's falling due to age.

Not at all....I'd just have that in my mind before I lock him up for a contract with any length....Adam is NOT going to get better at the plate...he may stay the same in his 'prime'. But realizing a defensive and baserunning decline will come with age, has to be considered.

cincyinco
05-04-2008, 02:36 AM
This is the most ridiculous thread I think we've had here in months.

Months? These types of threads have occured since day 1 of the season.

Remember week 1? We were pretty good.

Remember week 2?
The sky started falling.

Its just more of the same... Its only been amplified more by front office turmoil.

Unfortunately these types of threads have been commonplace around here lately..

Wheelhouse
05-04-2008, 02:37 AM
Cast has no one to blame but himself. He's the one who hired Krivsky.



Poppycock.

The only consistent,long term statistical fact on this team is that as long as Griffey and Dunn have been on it, it has been in decline. It's not blaming "the best players," it's simply a fact: with whatever Griffey and Dunn bring to or take away from the team, in stats or attitude, for better or worse, whatever your opinion of them, the team has been bad with them at the core. Time for a new approach. I agree wholeheartedly with Krusty.

Krusty
05-04-2008, 07:39 AM
Griffey is a tetchy and unusual situation. He's a leftover superstar who genuinely hasn't outlasted his playing days yet. in the field he's a mess, but at the plate he has moments of brilliance. But they're fewer and farther between and I'm guessing that stats would probably show me that they're not worth the slumps. On the other hand, he's a superstar. I do believe he still brings people into the ballpark. I love him to pieces. It would break my heart to have to face the reality of him being traded to another team because someone is willing to give him a chance at postseason baseball that the Reds can't...but on some level, deep down (depending on the return), I would respect the Reds for it. I am PERFECTLY HAPPY with him staying, but as much as it would break my heart I know that it would mean the team putting the money where its mouth is in terms of producing a winning team and I have to support a team which makes a decision as difficult as that.

Dunn is the polar opposite situation for me. Facts must be faced that Dunn has some serious weaknesses as a ballplayer. His defense doesn't bother me so much as long as he's ensconsed in left field, it really doesn't. But he does slump. It's not just a matter of this April. he goes through serious slumps at inopportune times. I don't question his dedication or his work ethic as some do, but I do honestly question his focus. I think he's a little too eager to please for his own good, which leads to a slipshod and inconsistent approach at the plate. You can blame poor management for that -- and I do -- but a stronger player would stand up to it.

However. Junior is a case of a management giving every opportunity to a ballplayer whose best time has past. All I see when I look at Dunn is a case of management -- and a public -- determined to rob him of opportunities for his best possible future. I got to the point long ago where I resigned myself to Dunn being traded, because he's so very good that I want him to have the best career he can. And that isn't happening here and hasn't been for a few years. Send him to a team that can properly use him. Get a couple of good prospects in return. Spend the extra money on pitching. In the end, it may well result in the best situation for everybody.

But if the Reds trade Dunn because of his lack of production, it will be no secret respect coming out of heartbreak for me. It will be a complete lack of respect coming out of my understanding that this may in fact be a very good move for everybody. I cannot -- I cannot get behind a team that misuses its best player and then turns him into a scapegoat when the team itself cannot produce because it hasn't been well-constructed. To me that is the ultimate in laziness and immaturity. It's also a clear indication of a mentality that will not win, period. It's a team that is bent on pointing fingers and messing with things it should leave alone while completely ignoring gaping holes that are killing this team. If that's not the definition of a loser, I don't know what is. This team hasn't been losing for eight years because it doesn't have the right pieces. It's been losing for eight years because it consistently takes the easy way out in recognizing where the good pieces are and how the bad ones need to be fixed.



In other words, we are the Pittsburgh Pirates.

Topcat
05-04-2008, 08:04 AM
Actually I do believe it has come time to send both Dunn and Griffey elsewhere, first off Adam Dunn the cry's for how he does nothing have gone far to often and his appreciation is only equal to the Phillies bashing of Pat Burrell. Griffey has become an expensive player who's value has diminished greatly.

The time has come for a remake on what is a truly promising team going forward.

WMR
05-04-2008, 08:16 AM
Actually I do believe it has come time to send both Dunn and Griffey elsewhere, first off Adam Dunn the cry's for how he does nothing have gone far to often and his appreciation is only equal to the Phillies bashing of Pat Burrell. Griffey has become an expensive player who's value has diminished greatly.

The time has come for a remake on what is a truly promising team going forward.

Your "argument" as to why Dunn should be disposed of makes no sense whatsoever.

GAC
05-04-2008, 08:38 AM
If you're Junior, the only thing missing in a Hall of Fame career is the opportunity to play in a World Series. At this stage of his career, I think he would approve a trade to have that opportunity.

With Seattle??

Jr's going to be here till season's end. They'll give him the 4 mil buyout and say "Thank you", while sending him those annual deferment checks until 2024.


Come June, the Reds will have some teams that aren't on Dunn's no trade list. His inability to hit in the clutch is prime reason why he shouldn't get a multi-year deal for 15+ million a season.

From the initial interview when they hired Dusty and were asked about Adam Dunn....

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071015/SPT04/310160001/-1/CINCI

It’s too soon to answer those questions, Baker said. Nor did he commit to a stance on whether or not to keep Adam Dunn on the team, though Reds chief executive officer Bob Castellini did.

“He’s a big part of the team,” Baker said, “but we haven’t gotten into personnel yet.”

“I want him back,” Castellini said.

jojo
05-04-2008, 08:53 AM
Trade Dunn? How about trying to leverage him first? Stick him in the 2 hole and bat the pitcher 8th..... He's the best hitter on the 40 man roster, why not build a lineup that has the potential to maximize his impact?

WMR
05-04-2008, 08:59 AM
Trade Dunn? How about trying to leverage him first? Stick him in the 2 hole and bat the pitcher 8th..... He's the best hitter on the 40 man roster, why not build a lineup that has the potential to maximize his impact?

Genius.

Raisor
05-04-2008, 09:41 AM
first off Adam Dunn the cry's for how he does nothing have gone far to often and his appreciation is only equal to the Phillies bashing of Pat Burrell.




What now?

kbrake
05-04-2008, 10:35 AM
The only consistent,long term statistical fact on this team is that as long as Griffey and Dunn have been on it, it has been in decline. It's not blaming "the best players," it's simply a fact: with whatever Griffey and Dunn bring to or take away from the team, in stats or attitude, for better or worse, whatever your opinion of them, the team has been bad with them at the core. Time for a new approach. I agree wholeheartedly with Krusty.

One has nothing to do with the other. Did Junior and Dunn make Jimmy Haynes, Joey Hamilton, Paul Wilson, and Cory Lidle Opening Day starters? Its insane how much these two take the blame and yet they have never had anything around them.

The offense is horrible right now so everyone wants Dunn and Junior gone. Well lets see, the offense is struggling in part because Dunn and Junior are struggling. This should give you a pretty good idea of what this offense would look like without these two. Its been a month and the worst possible lineup. These two are FAR from the problem.

pahster
05-04-2008, 10:46 AM
The only consistent,long term statistical fact on this team is that as long as Griffey and Dunn have been on it, it has been in decline. It's not blaming "the best players," it's simply a fact: with whatever Griffey and Dunn bring to or take away from the team, in stats or attitude, for better or worse, whatever your opinion of them, the team has been bad with them at the core. Time for a new approach. I agree wholeheartedly with Krusty.

That's an incredibly specious argument. There are all kinds of confounding variables at work there. You know, small things like horrible pitching. Just because state X and state Y exist does not mean that X causes Y. Your inferences are way off the mark.

If you honestly believe your argument, then you must agree with the following, correct?

The Tigers suck because of Cabrera, Sheffield, Ordonez, Granderson, etc.
The Marlins suck because of Hanley Ramirez.
The Rangers suck because of Josh Hamilton and Ian Kinsler.

I could go on, but perhaps you get my point. Good players play on bad teams; it's not their fault their teams' are bad. There are 24 other guys on the roster.

Highlifeman21
05-04-2008, 10:55 AM
The only consistent,long term statistical fact on this team is that as long as Griffey and Dunn have been on it, it has been in decline. It's not blaming "the best players," it's simply a fact: with whatever Griffey and Dunn bring to or take away from the team, in stats or attitude, for better or worse, whatever your opinion of them, the team has been bad with them at the core. Time for a new approach. I agree wholeheartedly with Krusty.

So what's the new approach? Score even less runs if we get rid of Dunn?

I feel very confident that in 2009, Bruce will be able to replace any offensive contributions we get from Griffey, but who do we get to replace, if not improve, Dunn's offensive contribution?

The Reds have been a bad team since 1999. During that time, they've had some decent offenses while having absolutely no reliable pitching (as a whole). Now, we're starting to collect some reliable pitchers here and there, but as a whole the staff is still crummy. Meanwhile, our biggest offensive producer, Adam Dunn, continues to have no Robin to his Batman. Dunn's surrounded zero offensive help. When Bruce is ready, he'll help a little, but then it'll still be Dunn and Bruce and a whole bunch of nothing. I'm all for moving Dunn if it improves our team, but we won't get anything that will maintain our offensive production, or improve our offensive production, so moving Dunn would essentially be making a trade to make a trade. Instead of moving Dunn, we need to keep Dunn, assume Bruce will be his Robin in 2009, and add another big bat for 2009.

And we'll also need to keep collecting reliable arms, hoping that our collection ultimately results in a reliable staff as a whole.

Blitz Dorsey
05-04-2008, 11:16 AM
By far the worst part about the Dunn/Griffey circus is the poor defense. We've had the worst defensive outfield in MLB for the last five years.

They are pretty bad offensively as well, but their terrible defense trumps all. Including laziness on the basepaths which is another frustrating aspect of their games.

Benihana
05-04-2008, 11:26 AM
I know it is early but a 12-19 record isn't what Reds fans or owners envisioned for what was supposed to be a promising season with a season veteran manager onboard.

And what we have seen so far is what we have seen the past two years. Only difference is an improved starting rotation with the young arms and a much improved bullpen. But the offense still can't manufacture runs and Dunn's inablility to hit with runners in scoring position is enough to drive even mild manner Reds fans nuts.

Things won't change unless there is new blood. Time to bring up Bruce and Bailey. Time to send Junior packing back to Seattle where he can wrap up a Hall of Fame career. Get a couple of prospects and move on. Keep Dunn till the midseason trading deadline. Then get the best deal you can and put the money saved towards a free agent or two for the 2009 season.

While it might seem like I'm throwing in the towel, the reality is what you're seeing now is what you have been watching the past two years. And no matter how many GMs and managers you fire, the product on the field won't improved until you make changes.

Hopefully the Reds can change their fortunes but if they keep the same motley crew, expect another brutal season.

While I'm starting to reconsider my keep Dunn position, I'll point out that there aren't very many desirable free agents this offseason. I love Mark Teixeira, but I doubt many on here would like to see anyone getting a deal north of $100 MM. So let me ask you, which FA would you try to pursue?

Puffy
05-04-2008, 12:53 PM
This is the most ridiculous thread I think we've had here in months.

Come on Krono - this type thread is now commonplace on this board.

Its why I rarely post anymore.

Chip R
05-04-2008, 12:59 PM
The Reds haven't had a winning season with Aaron Harang on this team. He's only won 1 game for them this year so let's get rid of him too.

This is Brandon Phillips' 3rd season with the Reds and they haven't won with him so get rid of him too.

Nothing is forever. But it's a lot more difficut to constrct a baseball team than just sitting in front of a keyboard saying, "Get rid of him" and "Use so and so's money for pitching."

Jr. is obviously on his last legs. I think he'll heat up and we'll get some production out of him. I don't think 29 HRs is out of the realm of possibility and if he can be traded, so be it but I don't see much of a market for him that doesn't make it look like we're just having a fire sale.

Dunn should heat up too. I don't know if sticking him in the 2 spot is going to help because no matter where he is in the lineup, he's going to have to start hitting the ball to help this team. Walking is great but if they are going to pitch to him, he needs to hit the ball.

As for signing him to a long term deal, I wouldn't be opposed to shopping him for a good return but I'd like to see some signs of him actually hitting the ball this year like he has in the past before I commit to that kind of a deal. Maybe Dusty isn't the right manager for him. Maybe Walt doesn't think this team can win with him. Maybe this is the start of an Andruw Jonesesque decline for him. The fielding, the baserunning, the other things that drive people crazy I can live with because there are only a few players that can put up the numbers he does and can do all those other things people rave about and they are very few and far between. I think people are mistaken, though if they believe that hard work and hours shagging flies is going to improve his defensive game. He's 6-5 260, you really think he's going to turn into Corey Patterson with a few drills? Speaking of Patterson, it looks like his defensive skills - which are superb - certainly hasn't won a lot of games for the Reds this year. Alex Gonzalez' glove certainly didn't improve the Reds an awful lot last year.

Dusty's right when he says the middle of the order has to hit for this team to score runs. He tried moving Dunn down and Jr. up last night and it didn't work against a rookie. You try things and even if everyone thinks it's the right thing to do, it might mot work.

wheels
05-04-2008, 01:19 PM
I'd really like to know where they would find guys to play the outfield if they trade them all away.

You dump them at their worst, and you'll get a crap return.

This thread reminds me of one of my customers, a middle aged, short little guy with big coke bottle glasses and a trailer park vocabulary. The other day he tells me that he was a pretty good ballplayer in high school, and that he could play left field better than Adam Dunn.

It's like he's got a moral issue with the Dunn. It's not based on anything more than sheer loathing on a personal level.

I really don't get it. These same people, in turn hold an ex crackhead up as the new moral paragon.

guttle11
05-04-2008, 01:37 PM
Is it possible to be in the middle with Dunn? Cause if so, put me in that camp. He's a really good hitter with some flaws, and the good FAR outweighs the bad. But he specifically is not needed to build a winning team and trading him at this point may be the right move for all involved, even if you don't get "equal" value.

That's where I am. At this point I think an LTC is out of the question. Something about the situation tells me neither side is really interested. If I'm wrong and an LTC gets hammered out, I'll be perfectly happy with that, too.

wheels
05-04-2008, 01:41 PM
If I was Dunn, I wouldn't want to come back.

*BaseClogger*
05-04-2008, 01:44 PM
There is a lot of confusion for folks right now...

Spring~Fields
05-04-2008, 01:44 PM
Come on Krono - this type thread is now commonplace on this board.

Its why I rarely post anymore.



Puffy,

You know how to remedy that, start some great threads with interesting topics to interact with Puffy, germane to the Reds. Give us some great new material Puffy.

Spring~Fields
05-04-2008, 01:55 PM
The Reds haven't had a winning season with Aaron Harang on this team. He's only won 1 game for them this year so let's get rid of him too.



Liked your points, down earth and kind of refreshing.

On the one above, each of you might chase me off the Internet. I have wondered what a Bean might be able to get for Harang, imagining that Bean might be able to get a haul in return, helping the Reds now and well into the future. Of course we can't trust anyone on this side of the mighty Mississippi, so I passed on the thought.

*BaseClogger*
05-04-2008, 02:02 PM
Liked your points, down earth and kind of refreshing.

On the one above, each of you might chase me off the Internet. I have wondered what a Bean might be able to get for Harang, imagining that Bean might be able to get a haul in return, helping the Reds now and well into the future. Of course we can't trust anyone on this side of the mighty Mississippi, so I passed on the thought.

You know, I would have said that was crazy before the season. But I'm starting to doubt this team competing at any point this decade. Not bad...

RedlegJake
05-04-2008, 02:03 PM
The Reds lose the heat on Dunn goes up. Always has. AD has had a poor year so far but blaming this team's woes on him is ridiculous. In the proper position in the lineup AD would still be a huge part of the offense. John Erardi has the right lineup for this team -read his article in the Enquirer. But it would be my lineup, too and one I've thought about.

Kepp leading off. He hits constantly, doesn't strikeout, works counts. His weaknesses are he hits grounders constantly, doesn't strikeout and consequently hits into a lot of double plays. Not only does he have all the attributes of a leadoff hitter except speed (imo, the least important, plus he is a good smart baserunner which offsets that a bit) but batting leadoff minimizes his weaknesses. He'll come up fewer times with men on base, hence fewer DP opportunities.

Dunn. Hitting second maximizes his OBP. Kepp will be on fairly regularly in front of him giving him opportunities for rbi's, plus as we'll see, after the first inning there may be more guys on base. But Dunn is mis-managed. He is always cast as a power hitter who happens to get on base a lot. That is just the reverse of his true value. His real strength is in being an OBP machine who happens to have raw power. The 2 spot maximizes that.

EE - He IS the best overall hitter on this team and that is the 3 spot.

Votto - Line drive hitter with decent BA, decent power. Not the best fit for cleanup in baseball but the best one, imo, on this team.

Junior - Provides power in the 5 hole. Actually, imo, the perfect spot for Junior. Lots of rbi chances, protection for EE and Votto.

Phillips - Free swinging guy keeps pitchers honest with Junior. Homers are still valuable and his speed when he gets on base helps reset the table. He can clear off the runners preceding him and get things going again.

Bako/Ross. Let em hit 7th. Bako's hot, Ross at least has power.

Pitcher - Yeah. I'd bat the pitcher 8th IF Freel or Hopper is in CF, otherwise with CP, he'd bat here. Reasoning follows with #9.

9 - Freel/Hopper. They get on base reasonably well. With Freel on first ahead of Kepp, Ryan can run to eliminate the DP risk with Kepp. This adds to the reward in the risk/reward of stealing, and offsets Ryan's lowish SB percentage somewhat. Get Freel/Hopper AND Kepp on base and guess who's up next? Yep, AD and that monster power.

Now you've maximized AD's power AND maximized his OBP. You've minimized Kepps GIDP tendencies and with Freel hitting ahead of him later in the game, still get Kepp some rbi situations. You have 2 leadoff types ahead of Adam after the first inning. The lineup goes L-R so managers seeking L-R matchups will have to burn more pitchers. If and when Bruce comes up you slot him right in Freel's spot at first, keeping the pressure off him a bit in the beginning. If he takes Junior's place, just slot him 5th.

I'd save CP as a late inning replacement for Hopper/Freel in CF, letting the double switch re-align the pitcher to 9th if that was advantageous.

This lineup is not my idea entirely, or Erardi's. Several posters have posted it, some even before the season began. I think its the best fit for the talent.

So, I don't think the Reds have to trade Dunn or Junior to win this year. They just have to use what talents they have to best advantage, something that has definitely NOT been done.

Spring~Fields
05-04-2008, 02:40 PM
You know, I would have said that was crazy before the season. But I'm starting to doubt this team competing at any point this decade. Not bad...

I would not have written it, but I sure would have thought or said it to myself. One would have to get an unreal or unheard of return to do something like that. Bean does get some nice returns though. Just a little fantasy thinking to pacify the strain of the losing season, I guess.

Spring~Fields
05-04-2008, 02:45 PM
The Reds lose the heat on Dunn goes up. Always has. AD has had a poor year so far but blaming this team's woes on him is ridiculous. In the proper position in the lineup AD would still be a huge part of the offense. John Erardi has the right lineup for this team -read his article in the Enquirer. But it would be my lineup, too and one I've thought about.

Kepp leading off. He hits constantly, doesn't strikeout, works counts. His weaknesses are he hits grounders constantly, doesn't strikeout and consequently hits into a lot of double plays. Not only does he have all the attributes of a leadoff hitter except speed (imo, the least important, plus he is a good smart baserunner which offsets that a bit) but batting leadoff minimizes his weaknesses. He'll come up fewer times with men on base, hence fewer DP opportunities.

Dunn. Hitting second maximizes his OBP. Kepp will be on fairly regularly in front of him giving him opportunities for rbi's, plus as we'll see, after the first inning there may be more guys on base. But Dunn is mis-managed. He is always cast as a power hitter who happens to get on base a lot. That is just the reverse of his true value. His real strength is in being an OBP machine who happens to have raw power. The 2 spot maximizes that.

EE - He IS the best overall hitter on this team and that is the 3 spot.

Votto - Line drive hitter with decent BA, decent power. Not the best fit for cleanup in baseball but the best one, imo, on this team.

Junior - Provides power in the 5 hole. Actually, imo, the perfect spot for Junior. Lots of rbi chances, protection for EE and Votto.

Phillips - Free swinging guy keeps pitchers honest with Junior. Homers are still valuable and his speed when he gets on base helps reset the table. He can clear off the runners preceding him and get things going again.

Bako/Ross. Let em hit 7th. Bako's hot, Ross at least has power.

Pitcher - Yeah. I'd bat the pitcher 8th IF Freel or Hopper is in CF, otherwise with CP, he'd bat here. Reasoning follows with #9.

9 - Freel/Hopper. They get on base reasonably well. With Freel on first ahead of Kepp, Ryan can run to eliminate the DP risk with Kepp. This adds to the reward in the risk/reward of stealing, and offsets Ryan's lowish SB percentage somewhat. Get Freel/Hopper AND Kepp on base and guess who's up next? Yep, AD and that monster power.

Now you've maximized AD's power AND maximized his OBP. You've minimized Kepps GIDP tendencies and with Freel hitting ahead of him later in the game, still get Kepp some rbi situations. You have 2 leadoff types ahead of Adam after the first inning. The lineup goes L-R so managers seeking L-R matchups will have to burn more pitchers. If and when Bruce comes up you slot him right in Freel's spot at first, keeping the pressure off him a bit in the beginning. If he takes Junior's place, just slot him 5th.

I'd save CP as a late inning replacement for Hopper/Freel in CF, letting the double switch re-align the pitcher to 9th if that was advantageous.

This lineup is not my idea entirely, or Erardi's. Several posters have posted it, some even before the season began. I think its the best fit for the talent.

So, I don't think the Reds have to trade Dunn or Junior to win this year. They just have to use what talents they have to best advantage, something that has definitely NOT been done.

Excellent, well said, and very plausible. Something that can be done.

Then leaving it up to them to execute it.

Heath
05-04-2008, 02:57 PM
I read this thread - here are the highlights.....



Yep. That's "slump-proofing". And it's a sight better than these April 2008 performances:

Player A: .353 OBP/.437 SLG
Player B: .315 OBP/.411 SLG
Player C: .364 OBP/.385 SLG
Player D: .372 OBP/.337 SLG

And it's a LOT better than this:

Player E: .298 OBP/.347 SLG
Player F: .300 OBP/.375 SLG
Player G: .305 OBP/.314 SLG
Player H: .283 OBP/.250 SLG
Player I: .302 OBP/.340 SLG

Players A through I have combined for the following hardware:

Rookie of the Year: 2
Most Valuable Player: 2
All Star Games: 36
Silver Slugger: 22

Those are the numbers in April 2008 for...

Player A: Vlad Guererro
Player B: Jason Giambi
Player C: Carlos Beltran
Player D: Nick Swisher
Player E: Ryan Howard
Player F: David Ortiz
Player G: Gary Sheffield
Player H: Andruw Jones
Player I: Travis Hafner

I guess their respective teams should just get rid of all of those guys?

I swear, I quite often wonder if some folks really understand how this whole "baseball" thing really works. It's a game of streaks and randomness, even from the best players. The hitter who consistently produces what fans want every day of the season simply isn't out there. He never has been. And so it goes...


For Pete's sake! You act like whatever it is that isn't clicking for them is being done on purpose!

Do you think they want to fail? Do you think they're playing/hitting badly is because that's what they want?

From what I read both arrive early at the ballpark and are working hard.

Granted, they're not doing well at the moment, but not committed to winning? That's a stretch, don't you think?

If one could hit at will then they'd all be superstars.


Griffey is a tetchy and unusual situation. He's a leftover superstar who genuinely hasn't outlasted his playing days yet. in the field he's a mess, but at the plate he has moments of brilliance. But they're fewer and farther between and I'm guessing that stats would probably show me that they're not worth the slumps. On the other hand, he's a superstar. I do believe he still brings people into the ballpark. I love him to pieces. It would break my heart to have to face the reality of him being traded to another team because someone is willing to give him a chance at postseason baseball that the Reds can't...but on some level, deep down (depending on the return), I would respect the Reds for it. I am PERFECTLY HAPPY with him staying, but as much as it would break my heart I know that it would mean the team putting the money where its mouth is in terms of producing a winning team and I have to support a team which makes a decision as difficult as that.

Dunn is the polar opposite situation for me. Facts must be faced that Dunn has some serious weaknesses as a ballplayer. His defense doesn't bother me so much as long as he's ensconsed in left field, it really doesn't. But he does slump. It's not just a matter of this April. he goes through serious slumps at inopportune times. I don't question his dedication or his work ethic as some do, but I do honestly question his focus. I think he's a little too eager to please for his own good, which leads to a slipshod and inconsistent approach at the plate. You can blame poor management for that -- and I do -- but a stronger player would stand up to it.

However. Junior is a case of a management giving every opportunity to a ballplayer whose best time has past. All I see when I look at Dunn is a case of management -- and a public -- determined to rob him of opportunities for his best possible future. I got to the point long ago where I resigned myself to Dunn being traded, because he's so very good that I want him to have the best career he can. And that isn't happening here and hasn't been for a few years. Send him to a team that can properly use him. Get a couple of good prospects in return. Spend the extra money on pitching. In the end, it may well result in the best situation for everybody.

But if the Reds trade Dunn because of his lack of production, it will be no secret respect coming out of heartbreak for me. It will be a complete lack of respect coming out of my understanding that this may in fact be a very good move for everybody. I cannot -- I cannot get behind a team that misuses its best player and then turns him into a scapegoat when the team itself cannot produce because it hasn't been well-constructed. To me that is the ultimate in laziness and immaturity. It's also a clear indication of a mentality that will not win, period. It's a team that is bent on pointing fingers and messing with things it should leave alone while completely ignoring gaping holes that are killing this team. If that's not the definition of a loser, I don't know what is. This team hasn't been losing for eight years because it doesn't have the right pieces. It's been losing for eight years because it consistently takes the easy way out in recognizing where the good pieces are and how the bad ones need to be fixed.


This is the most ridiculous thread I think we've had here in months.


If I was Dunn, I wouldn't want to come back.

I'm going to leave you with a quote from RFS - that cagey wise one - courtesy of VR's sig line.


"Woo Hoo.
We're great.
No, we suck.
Hey, we're great.
No wai.... we suck with intensity.
We're great!!!!!
WE SUCK!!!!!!!!!
SCOREBOARD!!!!!!!
Oh yeah, we're great again."

RFS62


Is this post what we can cut and paste for 90% of the board?

KronoRed
05-04-2008, 02:59 PM
In other words, we are the Pittsburgh Pirates.

We have been for awhile, nice that people notice.

Heath
05-04-2008, 03:04 PM
We have been for awhile, nice that people notice.

eerie, huh?

I was more thinking of the Detroit Tigers, but BCast hasn't sold pizza.

SMcGavin
05-04-2008, 03:15 PM
If I was Dunn, I wouldn't want to come back.

That's what I'm scared of.

Heath
05-04-2008, 03:17 PM
That's what I'm scared of.
You never know what's missing, until it's gone.

BCubb2003
05-04-2008, 03:20 PM
Which positions are most likely to be upgraded enough at this point to make a difference? Centerfielder, rightfielder whose contract is nearing an end, leftfielder who seeks an expensive long-term contract?

SirFelixCat
05-04-2008, 03:37 PM
The Reds lose the heat on Dunn goes up. Always has. AD has had a poor year so far but blaming this team's woes on him is ridiculous. In the proper position in the lineup AD would still be a huge part of the offense. John Erardi has the right lineup for this team -read his article in the Enquirer. But it would be my lineup, too and one I've thought about.

Kepp leading off. He hits constantly, doesn't strikeout, works counts. His weaknesses are he hits grounders constantly, doesn't strikeout and consequently hits into a lot of double plays. Not only does he have all the attributes of a leadoff hitter except speed (imo, the least important, plus he is a good smart baserunner which offsets that a bit) but batting leadoff minimizes his weaknesses. He'll come up fewer times with men on base, hence fewer DP opportunities.

Dunn. Hitting second maximizes his OBP. Kepp will be on fairly regularly in front of him giving him opportunities for rbi's, plus as we'll see, after the first inning there may be more guys on base. But Dunn is mis-managed. He is always cast as a power hitter who happens to get on base a lot. That is just the reverse of his true value. His real strength is in being an OBP machine who happens to have raw power. The 2 spot maximizes that.

EE - He IS the best overall hitter on this team and that is the 3 spot.

Votto - Line drive hitter with decent BA, decent power. Not the best fit for cleanup in baseball but the best one, imo, on this team.

Junior - Provides power in the 5 hole. Actually, imo, the perfect spot for Junior. Lots of rbi chances, protection for EE and Votto.

Phillips - Free swinging guy keeps pitchers honest with Junior. Homers are still valuable and his speed when he gets on base helps reset the table. He can clear off the runners preceding him and get things going again.

Bako/Ross. Let em hit 7th. Bako's hot, Ross at least has power.

Pitcher - Yeah. I'd bat the pitcher 8th IF Freel or Hopper is in CF, otherwise with CP, he'd bat here. Reasoning follows with #9.

9 - Freel/Hopper. They get on base reasonably well. With Freel on first ahead of Kepp, Ryan can run to eliminate the DP risk with Kepp. This adds to the reward in the risk/reward of stealing, and offsets Ryan's lowish SB percentage somewhat. Get Freel/Hopper AND Kepp on base and guess who's up next? Yep, AD and that monster power.

Now you've maximized AD's power AND maximized his OBP. You've minimized Kepps GIDP tendencies and with Freel hitting ahead of him later in the game, still get Kepp some rbi situations. You have 2 leadoff types ahead of Adam after the first inning. The lineup goes L-R so managers seeking L-R matchups will have to burn more pitchers. If and when Bruce comes up you slot him right in Freel's spot at first, keeping the pressure off him a bit in the beginning. If he takes Junior's place, just slot him 5th.

I'd save CP as a late inning replacement for Hopper/Freel in CF, letting the double switch re-align the pitcher to 9th if that was advantageous.

This lineup is not my idea entirely, or Erardi's. Several posters have posted it, some even before the season began. I think its the best fit for the talent.

So, I don't think the Reds have to trade Dunn or Junior to win this year. They just have to use what talents they have to best advantage, something that has definitely NOT been done.


Can someone explain to me why us as "just fans" can see this but Dusty & Co. can't???

Watching this team right now has me near tears, so-to-speak.

Yachtzee
05-04-2008, 03:59 PM
Can someone explain to me why us as "just fans" can see this but Dusty & Co. can't???

Watching this team right now has me near tears, so-to-speak.

We don't have years of experience blinding us. ;)

Seriously, I think experience has it's benefits. Experience helps you do things like see holes in someone's swing or notice a pitcher with a problem in his motion. Experience in the clubhouse can go a long way to managing a team of 25 egos. But experience can make you blind in that you get locked in to notions that are so ingrained into your understanding of the game that you automatically discount any idea that doesn't jibe with that understanding, even when the statistics show that you are wrong. And of course there's also the fear that if you try something new and it fails, you'll get the blame, but if you follow "the book" and it fails, the players will get the blame.

BCubb2003
05-04-2008, 04:03 PM
Will moving the same players up and down in the order make enough of a difference? If not, whom do you bring in, for which positions?

Tony Cloninger
05-04-2008, 04:04 PM
Can we send Steel and some others to the enquirer board please...It would be so much fun to have them thrown out stats and great analysis at some of the people on that board.

If you think it is bad here.....Any post over there includes Dunn every single time about the most inane things.

I cannot log in there beacuse every time i ask for my password and user ID to be sent to my e-mail....it never get's sent.

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 04:07 PM
Will moving the same players up and down in the order make enough of a difference? If not, whom do you bring in, for which positions?

Theoretically it will make a difference. Don't blame the hitter, blame the lineup.

redsrule2500
05-04-2008, 04:19 PM
I agree. Dunn and Griffey both need to go. Trade Griffey to seattle, let them celebrate his 600...I don't even care at this point. I'm a Reds fan first.

Dunn is just so bad lately....trade him and bring up Bruce.

paintmered
05-04-2008, 04:29 PM
Dunn is just so bad lately....trade him and bring up Bruce.

1. Sell high, not low.
2. Bruce is Griffey's replacement.

jojo
05-04-2008, 05:30 PM
1. Sell high, not low.

Well given the way the season is starting out of the gates, when Dunn snaps out of it, we'll at least get to talk at length about how he only produces when it doesn't matter..... :cool:

That should make for some fun threads.

flyer85
05-04-2008, 05:34 PM
I was thinking hat Arroyo, Fogg, belisle, etc ought to be packing.

wheels
05-04-2008, 05:46 PM
Well given the way the season is starting out of the gates, when Dunn snaps out of it, we'll at least get to talk at length about how he only produces when it doesn't matter..... :cool:

That should make for some fun threads.

You know it's gonna happen.

fearofpopvol1
05-04-2008, 06:18 PM
I'd say if the Reds wanted to extend Dunn, now would be the time to do so while he's slumping. You can probably get him for cheaper.

gonelong
05-05-2008, 10:41 AM
Frankly I hope Dunn ends up with an organization that doesn't try to put the square peg in the round hole. Since the Reds can't figure out how to use him I am fine with him moving on via trade, free agency, whatever.

It'd be intersting to see how another organization attempts to maximize his obvious abilities and minimize his sizeable weaknesses. The Reds deployment of Dunn has been appalling moronic IMO.

GL