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View Full Version : Time to send Dusty packing



flyer85
05-03-2008, 10:13 PM
the batting orders are simply absurd. The toothpick needs to be on the first bus elsewhere.

Krusty
05-03-2008, 10:17 PM
the batting orders are simply absurd. The toothpick needs to be on the first bus elsewhere.


That's all Bob C needs to do....eat another contract.

Paying on Narron's and Krivsky's contracts through this season and you want him to pay for another manager to sit home for 2.5 seasons?

WMR
05-03-2008, 10:19 PM
IN.

I nominate Steel for manager and Cyclone for his bench coach.

flyer85
05-03-2008, 10:24 PM
every Reds fan buys a few extra heads of lettuce and it's all paid for ... chump change

Spring~Fields
05-03-2008, 10:30 PM
Dusty ought to be paying Castellini, Dusty gets more PR and overall press than his players do.

I never did like it when a GM, coach or manager received more press than the players in any sport, it is a bad sign.

cincrazy
05-03-2008, 11:57 PM
the batting orders are simply absurd. The toothpick needs to be on the first bus elsewhere.

30 games in. Blasphemy

Reds1
05-04-2008, 12:24 AM
Can't believe all the panic on the zone tonight! I for one am loving this starting pitching. Belise back on track with Volquez and Harang and Cueto and Homer kicking in AAA. But I'm a half full type of guy. They are just pressing. This to shall pass! But getting rid of Dunn, Griffey, Freel, Baker - Come one guys!

CrackerJack
05-04-2008, 12:32 AM
Can't believe all the panic on the zone tonight! I for one am loving this starting pitching. Belise back on track with Volquez and Harang and Cueto and Homer kicking in AAA. But I'm a half full type of guy. They are just pressing. This to shall pass! But getting rid of Dunn, Griffey, Freel, Baker - Come one guys!

Well, I think there's good reason to be genuinely concerned.

And Jerry Narron laughs at Dusty's line-ups.

Reds1
05-04-2008, 12:45 AM
oh I'm concerned. Just not ready to do the fire sell in early May!

Aronchis
05-04-2008, 12:55 AM
Can't believe all the panic on the zone tonight! I for one am loving this starting pitching. Belise back on track with Volquez and Harang and Cueto and Homer kicking in AAA. But I'm a half full type of guy. They are just pressing. This to shall pass! But getting rid of Dunn, Griffey, Freel, Baker - Come one guys!

The bullpen had been throwing over their heads. Tonight they imploded. Something else for you to worry about.

Phhhl
05-04-2008, 01:04 AM
Dusty was an almost laughable choice to manage this team. The reason behind it was to convince the fanbase that ownership was serious about winning. Very little thought seemed to be given to the man's history as a manager, and the conditions under which he excelled and how dramatically different those were from the conditions we currently have with our beloved Reds. It would be hard to find anyone who knows anything about this game to imagine an individual more miscast to manage the the 2008 version of the Reds than Dusty Baker. That is not a slam on Dusty, but a criticism of an owner group struggling to find it's niche. Dusty is a good baseball man, and I can honestly say that I feel bad for him for the situation he currently finds himself in. This may be his last chance to rescue what was once a very bright career in management. Ten years ago, he would have been the one laughing at the idea of taking a job in a small market struggling to regain it's identity in an economic environment designed to snuff it out.

So, what to do now?

No matter what the sports writers have to say, and no matter how much criticism Castellini will suffer for doing so, ownership needs to let Jockety decide who will manage the team he is about to re-design. If Dusty Baker is the right man for this job, so be it. But, I don't think he ever was that guy. There is enough talent in this organization to be performing much better than it is at the moment, and there is plenty of time this season to turn it around.

However, there is no time to waste.

jojo
05-04-2008, 09:32 AM
Bob C should fire every single member of the organization, then salt the field at GABP, and as his last act, fire himself. :cool:

In the ultimate irony, even if Bob C did all of that this afternoon, the story still would only get 5 seconds and it would be buried at the end of ESPN news' broadcast after about 25 minutes devoted to the Yankees and BoSox....


All kidding aside....cheer up..... Bruce is coming (sooner or later)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Falls City Beer
05-04-2008, 09:47 AM
They already fired the guy responsible for this joke of a roster. You have to give the new GM some time. Trades don't often materialize in early May.

OnBaseMachine
05-04-2008, 10:54 AM
From John Erardi:

Did you know ...

That we have a suggestion for Baker's voiced conundrum (as reported by John Fay in Saturday's Enquirer) of how to get Joey Votto higher in the batting order without stacking left-handers?

We realize managers have to deal with personalities, contracts and the pesky lefty-righty thing. But they also should bat the guys that get on base in front of those who (should) drive them in.

There are two things Baker needs to do: Every single game but one this season, he has batted his center fielder leadoff. Stop that; it's not working.

Secondly, he needs to play to his strength as a communicator. Go to Ken Griffey Jr.,explain that you want to shake up the batting order to try to get things going, and ask Junior to "take one for the team." He'll do it; he wants to win.

But even without the Griffey option, Baker can make the following batting order work today against Braves left-hander Tom Glavine.

1. Jeff Keppinger - He's killing lefties so far this year (.320 batting average/.452 on-base percentage/.440 slugging percentage), just as he has over his career.

2. Adam Dunn - He's struggling this year, but he's still getting on base, even against lefties. He's hit Glavine well in the past (.304/.429/.565).

3. Edwin Encarnacion - The fact is he's the best right-handed hitter on the Reds right now, if not the best hitter overall. Get him some more at-bats.

4. Votto - We don't like putting this kind of "pressure" on the kid, but what's the worst thing that can happen - an oh-fer? He's too hot for an oh-fer to cool him off. Plus he's killing lefties so far this season (.409/.435/.727).

5. Brandon Phillips - His bat is starting to come around, but he still doesn't get on base as much as we'd like. Let him clean up what Votto can't.

6. Griffey - We know Dusty likes toget Griffey an at-bat in the first inning, but maybe it happens anyway - with runners on base! (And if you can't live with this, Dusty or Junior, then just flip-flop Griffey and Votto).

7. David Ross - With Bronson Arroyo pitching and a lefty going for the Braves, Ross likely will catch.

8. Freel - Until one of the center fielders starts doing something consistently useful, we suggest "dropping them down" in the order with the directive to get on base for the top of the order. (Want to be really creative?" Pull a Tony La Russa and bat starting pitcher Arroyo 8th and Freel 9th - for a "second leadoff hitter." Today is the day to try it; Arroyo has bat speed and a sense of adventure - as does Freel.)

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080504/SPT04/805040442/

Unassisted
05-04-2008, 10:58 AM
If the Reds fire a big-name manager like Dusty for losing games this far into a 3-year contract, we can pretty much forget about seeing Davey Johnson, Lou Piniella, Joe Torre or any other big-name manager that people have pined for at the helm of the Reds until the Castellini family sells the team.

Falls City Beer
05-04-2008, 11:00 AM
Keppinger's not "killing" anything. He's just another in a long line of 6/7 slot hitters the Reds currently have on their roster.

SirFelixCat
05-04-2008, 11:05 AM
From John Erardi:

Did you know ...

That we have a suggestion for Baker's voiced conundrum (as reported by John Fay in Saturday's Enquirer) of how to get Joey Votto higher in the batting order without stacking left-handers?

We realize managers have to deal with personalities, contracts and the pesky lefty-righty thing. But they also should bat the guys that get on base in front of those who (should) drive them in.

There are two things Baker needs to do: Every single game but one this season, he has batted his center fielder leadoff. Stop that; it's not working.

Secondly, he needs to play to his strength as a communicator. Go to Ken Griffey Jr.,explain that you want to shake up the batting order to try to get things going, and ask Junior to "take one for the team." He'll do it; he wants to win.

But even without the Griffey option, Baker can make the following batting order work today against Braves left-hander Tom Glavine.

1. Jeff Keppinger - He's killing lefties so far this year (.320 batting average/.452 on-base percentage/.440 slugging percentage), just as he has over his career.

2. Adam Dunn - He's struggling this year, but he's still getting on base, even against lefties. He's hit Glavine well in the past (.304/.429/.565).

3. Edwin Encarnacion - The fact is he's the best right-handed hitter on the Reds right now, if not the best hitter overall. Get him some more at-bats.

4. Votto - We don't like putting this kind of "pressure" on the kid, but what's the worst thing that can happen - an oh-fer? He's too hot for an oh-fer to cool him off. Plus he's killing lefties so far this season (.409/.435/.727).

5. Brandon Phillips - His bat is starting to come around, but he still doesn't get on base as much as we'd like. Let him clean up what Votto can't.

6. Griffey - We know Dusty likes toget Griffey an at-bat in the first inning, but maybe it happens anyway - with runners on base! (And if you can't live with this, Dusty or Junior, then just flip-flop Griffey and Votto).

7. David Ross - With Bronson Arroyo pitching and a lefty going for the Braves, Ross likely will catch.

8. Freel - Until one of the center fielders starts doing something consistently useful, we suggest "dropping them down" in the order with the directive to get on base for the top of the order. (Want to be really creative?" Pull a Tony La Russa and bat starting pitcher Arroyo 8th and Freel 9th - for a "second leadoff hitter." Today is the day to try it; Arroyo has bat speed and a sense of adventure - as does Freel.)

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080504/SPT04/805040442/

:thumbup:

VR
05-04-2008, 11:26 AM
If the Reds fire a big-name manager like Dusty for losing games this far into a 3-year contract, we can pretty much forget about seeing Davey Johnson, Lou Piniella, Joe Torre or any other big-name manager that people have pined for at the helm of the Reds until the Castellini family sells the team.

I wouldn't mind getting paid for 3 years, and then only having to work less than 25% of it...that's a sweet gig. Oh, I also have great value to be rehired because all the competition knows my previous employer was a circus act.

Yeah, there would be a line outside the door to get that gig.:beerme:

SMcGavin
05-04-2008, 11:32 AM
I like John Erardi.


Keppinger's not "killing" anything. He's just another in a long line of 6/7 slot hitters the Reds currently have on their roster.

Kepp's career line vs LHP is .346/.410/.532, saying he kills lefties seems like an accurate statement to me

*BaseClogger*
05-04-2008, 11:51 AM
Dusty was an almost laughable choice to manage this team. The reason behind it was to convince the fanbase that ownership was serious about winning. Very little thought seemed to be given to the man's history as a manager, and the conditions under which he excelled and how dramatically different those were from the conditions we currently have with our beloved Reds. It would be hard to find anyone who knows anything about this game to imagine an individual more miscast to manage the the 2008 version of the Reds than Dusty Baker. That is not a slam on Dusty, but a criticism of an owner group struggling to find it's niche. Dusty is a good baseball man, and I can honestly say that I feel bad for him for the situation he currently finds himself in. This may be his last chance to rescue what was once a very bright career in management. Ten years ago, he would have been the one laughing at the idea of taking a job in a small market struggling to regain it's identity in an economic environment designed to snuff it out.

So, what to do now?

No matter what the sports writers have to say, and no matter how much criticism Castellini will suffer for doing so, ownership needs to let Jockety decide who will manage the team he is about to re-design. If Dusty Baker is the right man for this job, so be it. But, I don't think he ever was that guy. There is enough talent in this organization to be performing much better than it is at the moment, and there is plenty of time this season to turn it around.

However, there is no time to waste.

I found myself nodding in agreement while reading this post. :clap: Terrific! :thumbup:

*BaseClogger*
05-04-2008, 11:53 AM
From John Erardi:

Did you know ...

That we have a suggestion for Baker's voiced conundrum (as reported by John Fay in Saturday's Enquirer) of how to get Joey Votto higher in the batting order without stacking left-handers?

We realize managers have to deal with personalities, contracts and the pesky lefty-righty thing. But they also should bat the guys that get on base in front of those who (should) drive them in.

There are two things Baker needs to do: Every single game but one this season, he has batted his center fielder leadoff. Stop that; it's not working.

Secondly, he needs to play to his strength as a communicator. Go to Ken Griffey Jr.,explain that you want to shake up the batting order to try to get things going, and ask Junior to "take one for the team." He'll do it; he wants to win.

But even without the Griffey option, Baker can make the following batting order work today against Braves left-hander Tom Glavine.

1. Jeff Keppinger - He's killing lefties so far this year (.320 batting average/.452 on-base percentage/.440 slugging percentage), just as he has over his career.

2. Adam Dunn - He's struggling this year, but he's still getting on base, even against lefties. He's hit Glavine well in the past (.304/.429/.565).

3. Edwin Encarnacion - The fact is he's the best right-handed hitter on the Reds right now, if not the best hitter overall. Get him some more at-bats.

4. Votto - We don't like putting this kind of "pressure" on the kid, but what's the worst thing that can happen - an oh-fer? He's too hot for an oh-fer to cool him off. Plus he's killing lefties so far this season (.409/.435/.727).

5. Brandon Phillips - His bat is starting to come around, but he still doesn't get on base as much as we'd like. Let him clean up what Votto can't.

6. Griffey - We know Dusty likes toget Griffey an at-bat in the first inning, but maybe it happens anyway - with runners on base! (And if you can't live with this, Dusty or Junior, then just flip-flop Griffey and Votto).

7. David Ross - With Bronson Arroyo pitching and a lefty going for the Braves, Ross likely will catch.

8. Freel - Until one of the center fielders starts doing something consistently useful, we suggest "dropping them down" in the order with the directive to get on base for the top of the order. (Want to be really creative?" Pull a Tony La Russa and bat starting pitcher Arroyo 8th and Freel 9th - for a "second leadoff hitter." Today is the day to try it; Arroyo has bat speed and a sense of adventure - as does Freel.)

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080504/SPT04/805040442/

The only thing I would tweak: if Freel is the man to be moved way down, why not hit him ninth and the pitcher eighth? It's not that I think the whole pitcher eigth thing is brilliant, but a guy like Freel is the perfect opportunity to set up the additional leadoff hitter...

OldXOhio
05-04-2008, 12:01 PM
Can't believe all the panic on the zone tonight! I for one am loving this starting pitching. Belise back on track with Volquez and Harang and Cueto and Homer kicking in AAA. But I'm a half full type of guy. They are just pressing. This to shall pass! But getting rid of Dunn, Griffey, Freel, Baker - Come one guys!

I was with you until the Griffey part. Get any value you can for Junior and give RF to Bruce.

The get rid of Dusty sentiment around here is comical.

flyer85
05-04-2008, 02:19 PM
even the sportswriter can figure it out, this isn't rocket science, baseball 101 ... ad yet day after day the Reds get it wrong.

alexad
05-04-2008, 03:14 PM
Why do we want to FIRE BAKER??? This is not his team that was constructed. He is still trying to figure it all out. Griffey should be in the 5 hole and build around him. Dunn should be the 4th hitter. He is the power hitter on this team. Votto should bat 3rd. Yes that is 3 straight lefthanders but who cares. I would put Brandon in the leadoff spot. Freel should be in the 8th spot. Keep Kepp in the 2 hole. THen go from there.

Baker is not going anywhere. He is here for 3 years no matter what.

Reds4Life
05-04-2008, 04:16 PM
Baker is not going anywhere. He is here for 3 years no matter what.

I wouldn't bet on that. Castilini has shown he isn't afraid to dump you if you aren't getting the job done in his eyes. Baker was a Krivsky decision, if Jocketty goes to Bob and says he thinks there needs to be a manager change, there will be a manager change.

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 04:20 PM
I wouldn't bet on that. Castilini has shown he isn't afraid to dump you if you aren't getting the job done in his eyes. Baker was a Krivsky decision, if Jocketty goes to Bob and says he thinks there needs to be a manager change, there will be a manager change.

Castellini has not shown that he will dump someone who is one month into a three year deal.

Hell, even Castro and Stanton made it a full year.

4256 Hits
05-04-2008, 04:26 PM
If the Reds fire a big-name manager like Dusty for losing games this far into a 3-year contract, we can pretty much forget about seeing Davey Johnson, Lou Piniella, Joe Torre or any other big-name manager that people have pined for at the helm of the Reds until the Castellini family sells the team.

You say that like it a bad thing. :confused:

I see no reason to bring in a big name manager; the Reds should hire a "smart" man and have him become a big name manager.

jojo
05-04-2008, 04:35 PM
They already fired the guy responsible for this joke of a roster. You have to give the new GM some time. Trades don't often materialize in early May.

What are your thoughts on salting the field at GABP though? :cool:

Falls City Beer
05-04-2008, 04:38 PM
What are your thoughts on salting the field at GABP though? :cool:

I think teams should be given the option of quitting for a season so that they don't ruin the few good players they do have.

I cringe to think of the wasted miles being put on Harang's and Volquez's arms this season.

Reds4Life
05-04-2008, 04:43 PM
Castellini has not shown that he will dump someone who is one month into a three year deal.

Hell, even Castro and Stanton made it a full year.

Remains to be seen. If Jocketty says it's time for a change, I think Bob will make that change. I believe his faith, and level of trust in Jocketty, is that strong.

edabbs44
05-04-2008, 04:45 PM
Remains to be seen. If Jocketty says it's time for a change, I think Bob will make that change. I believe his faith, and level of trust in Jocketty, is that strong.

If Jocketty thinks that they are a manager away from finding success, then possibly. But not with this roster.

As long as he isn't burning arms, then there isn't much more someone else would do. This team is just not capable of having any kind of sustained success at this point.

Reds4Life
05-04-2008, 04:57 PM
If Jocketty thinks that they are a manager away from finding success, then possibly. But not with this roster.

As long as he isn't burning arms, then there isn't much more someone else would do. This team is just not capable of having any kind of sustained success at this point.

Putting together a lineup would be a nice start, which Dusty can't seem to do.

fearofpopvol1
05-04-2008, 05:01 PM
People can blame Dusty for his poor lineup construction all they want and I won't defend it, but if you think Dusty is the problem, you're definitely mistaken. Even with all the lineups that RZ'rs have thrown out, I doubt that equates to any significant amount of wins.

The offense is just terrible, regardless of who hits where.

Reds4Life
05-04-2008, 05:03 PM
People can blame Dusty for his poor lineup construction all they want and I won't defend it, but if you think Dusty is the problem, you're definitely mistaken. Even with all the lineups that RZ'rs have thrown out, I doubt that equates to any significant amount of wins.

The offense is just terrible, regardless of who hits where.

No argument there, but you have to optimize what you have, and Dusty isn't doing it. I'm not aruging to fire the guy, I personally think it's to early, but I think those saying it's not an option for Castilini are wrong.

cincrazy
05-04-2008, 05:04 PM
Putting together a lineup would be a nice start, which Dusty can't seem to do.

My friend, you can put this lineup together any way you want, 1-8, and it's still not going to score enough runs to be a winning team. The personnel is not very good.

fearofpopvol1
05-04-2008, 05:06 PM
No argument there, but you have to optimize what you have, and Dusty isn't doing it. I'm not aruging to fire the guy, I personally think it's to early, but I think those saying it's not an option for Castilini are wrong.

I don't disagree with you at all. The lovefest with Patterson at the top of the lineup is horrible and your hottest hitters hitting 6-7-8 is foolish. I guess there will come a point in time where lineup construction really matters, but right now I just don't think it has much bearing on a bad offense.

flyer85
05-04-2008, 05:14 PM
the poor pitching would be hard to overcome no matter the batting order, but that is not an excuse for Dusty's concoctions.

Unassisted
05-04-2008, 06:29 PM
You say that like it a bad thing. :confused:

I see no reason to bring in a big name manager; the Reds should hire a "smart" man and have him become a big name manager.That notion sounds good... until you look deeper and realize that Sparky Anderson was the last no-name manager who took the Reds to the playoffs. Sparky hasn't managed the Reds in nearly 30 years.

*BaseClogger*
05-04-2008, 06:31 PM
That notion sounds good... until you look deeper and realize that Sparky Anderson was the last no-name manager who took the Reds to the playoffs. Sparky hasn't managed the Reds in nearly 30 years.

Sweet Lou was a "name manager"?

Unassisted
05-04-2008, 06:42 PM
Sweet Lou was a "name manager"?He managed the Yankees before he managed the Reds. Anyone who played for the Yankees for as long as he did and moved on to manage them would have to be considered a big name. And yes, that means Girardi has graduated to big-name status.

*BaseClogger*
05-04-2008, 09:18 PM
He managed the Yankees before he managed the Reds. Anyone who played for the Yankees for as long as he did and moved on to manage them would have to be considered a big name. And yes, that means Girardi has graduated to big-name status.

Okay, I was just asking because I honestly didn't know. :) Thanks for the info...

BuckeyeRedleg
05-04-2008, 09:30 PM
I like John Erardi.



Kepp's career line vs LHP is .346/.410/.532, saying he kills lefties seems like an accurate statement to me

Great. Then let him be a platoon player he should be.

Kepp is very overrated on this board. You'd think he was Chris Denorfia or something.

cincrazy
05-04-2008, 09:35 PM
Great. Then let him be a platoon player he should be.

Kepp is very overrated on this board. You'd think he was Chris Denorfia or something.

HA! Good one :thumbup:

*BaseClogger*
05-04-2008, 09:46 PM
Great. Then let him be a platoon player he should be.

Kepp is very overrated on this board. You'd think he was Chris Denorfia or something.

Platoon? He's .291/.346/.391 career against RH pitchers...

BuckeyeRedleg
05-04-2008, 09:57 PM
Platoon? He's .291/.346/.391 career against RH pitchers...

I'm not doing backflips over a .733 OPS.

Seriously, this guy has jumped the shark. Chris Stynes. Ryan Freel. Norris Hopper.

Decent little player. That's it. Nothing to get all excited about. I've seen this movie more than a few times now.

I also disagree with you that he's a better SS than AGon. And I certainly don't want him playing 3B everyday. He's a good utility guy to have on the roster. That's it. Seriously, when Jeff Keppinger is an everyday player on your team, your team is pretty much going nowhere.

You are........the Reds.

*BaseClogger*
05-04-2008, 10:03 PM
I'm not doing backflips over a .733 OPS.

Seriously, this guy has jumped the shark. Chris Stynes. Ryan Freel. Norris Hopper.

Decent little player. That's it. Nothing to get all excited about. I've seen this movie more than a few times now.

I also disagree with you that he's a better SS than AGon. And I certainly don't want him playing 3B everyday. He's a good utility guy to have on the roster. That's it. Seriously, when Jeff Keppinger is an everyday player on your team, your team is pretty much going nowhere.

You are........the Reds.

He's the definition of average--I'll leave it there. Lets keep the thread on topic; I'm a notorious thread hijacker...

Kc61
05-04-2008, 10:23 PM
The subject of this thread, I thought, was Dusty. I blame him, in part, for the problems.

Not because of his batting orders.
Not because of his pitching usage.
Not because of his roster selection.

I put some blame on Dusty because I honestly feel that this team has wilted under some ridiculous pressure to win now. Castellini is also at fault. Frankly, it seems like Krivsky was the one guy who had things in perspective.

This is a team which finally has some good young kids. It is a team in transition from the Griffey years (and probably the Dunn years) to the Volquez, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto , Votto years. It has a bright future.

The hitting started to press when things went bad for awhile. Now, without runs being scored, I believe the pitchers have started to press as well. No runs, I have to be perfect, I have to throw harder, I can't walk anyone, etc.

When a team starts to press like this, the manager has to take some of the blame.

Personally, I'm ready to see the Reds go with more of the kids, promote, Bruce and Bailey, jettison some of the guys who don't fit in the long-term plan. Go with a young, enthusiastic group. And tell Dusty that this is a building year and his job is just to keep everyone loose.

The results couldn't be much worse, could they?

OldXOhio
05-04-2008, 10:25 PM
Personally, I'm ready to see the Reds go with more of the kids, promote, Bruce and Bailey, jettison some of the guys who don't fit in the long-term plan. Go with a young, enthusiastic group. And tell Dusty that this is a building year and his job is just to keep everyone loose.

The results couldn't be much worse, could they?

Careful, that's starting to sound like a plan.

VR
05-04-2008, 10:36 PM
The subject of this thread, I thought, was Dusty. I blame him, in part, for the problems.

Not because of his batting orders.
Not because of his pitching usage.
Not because of his roster selection.

I put some blame on Dusty because I honestly feel that this team has wilted under some ridiculous pressure to win now. Castellini is also at fault. Frankly, it seems like Krivsky was the one guy who had things in perspective.

This is a team which finally has some good young kids. It is a team in transition from the Griffey years (and probably the Dunn years) to the Volquez, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto , Votto years. It has a bright future.

The hitting started to press when things went bad for awhile. Now, without runs being scored, I believe the pitchers have started to press as well. No runs, I have to be perfect, I have to throw harder, I can't walk anyone, etc.

When a team starts to press like this, the manager has to take some of the blame.

Personally, I'm ready to see the Reds go with more of the kids, promote, Bruce and Bailey, jettison some of the guys who don't fit in the long-term plan. Go with a young, enthusiastic group. And tell Dusty that this is a building year and his job is just to keep everyone loose.

The results couldn't be much worse, could they?

I think you've nailed it. Nicely done KC.

Chip R
05-04-2008, 11:13 PM
The subject of this thread, I thought, was Dusty. I blame him, in part, for the problems.

Not because of his batting orders.
Not because of his pitching usage.
Not because of his roster selection.

I put some blame on Dusty because I honestly feel that this team has wilted under some ridiculous pressure to win now. Castellini is also at fault. Frankly, it seems like Krivsky was the one guy who had things in perspective.



That's an interesting take you have. The main reason Dusty was hired was because he was supposed to be a winner. He won in S.F. he won in CHI at first, he was supposed to have this mojo that was supposed to make this team a winner. If that had happened, Dusty would have received the lion's share of the credit. Now that they are losing, he should receive some blame.

He wasn't hired because he was some master strategist or that he could turn around a pitching staff. If anything his forte was supposed to be hitting and they aren't even doing that. His strong point was supposed to be communication but we have players complaining about not getting enough playing time.

I'm not saying he should be fired now. However, when a guy isn't doing the job and you don't think he can be successful at it, why not get rid of him right away instead of keeping him on so he can keep screwing things up more? I don't think that's necessarily the case wth Dusty but his track record lately leaves something to be desired.

I don't think he should be fired now. As I said in another thread, I think you get him the kind of players he wants and see what he can do with them. If he can't succeed with his kind of players, you let him go. But I also think we may be learning an expensive lesson here. Perhaps it really doesn't matter who the manager is. Could Mackanin or Narron or even, God forbid, Bob Boone do any worse? Culd LaRussa or Jim Leyland do any better?

AmarilloRed
05-04-2008, 11:24 PM
Castellini wants to bring winning baseball back to Cincinnati. Both Baker and Jocketty have experience in the postseason and in the World Series, and Castellini played a part in bringing both to them to Cincinnati. Baker hasn't impressed so far, but I will give him some more time. I also want to see what moves Jocketty will make to try and improve the roster.

WVRedsFan
05-05-2008, 12:32 AM
He wasn't hired because he was some master strategist or that he could turn around a pitching staff. If anything his forte was supposed to be hitting and they aren't even doing that. His strong point was supposed to be communication but we have players complaining about not getting enough playing time.

When you're not winning, you get the complaining. You also have a lot of guys who got a lot of playing time under Narron and Mackanin who aren't getting it now. Hateberg and Freel are used to playing every day and they're not. I don't think it's Dusty.


I'm not saying he should be fired now. However, when a guy isn't doing the job and you don't think he can be successful at it, why not get rid of him right away instead of keeping him on so he can keep screwing things up more? I don't think that's necessarily the case wth Dusty but his track record lately leaves something to be desired.

You have to look at the Griffey and Dunn slumps, but you also have to look at the putrid batting orders. My take is that if Griffey and Dunn were producing, this wouldn't even be a conversation.


I don't think he should be fired now. As I said in another thread, I think you get him the kind of players he wants and see what he can do with them. If he can't succeed with his kind of players, you let him go. But I also think we may be learning an expensive lesson here. Perhaps it really doesn't matter who the manager is. Could Mackanin or Narron or even, God forbid, Bob Boone do any worse? Culd LaRussa or Jim Leyland do any better?

I think you hit on something. The personnel just isn't up to winning. Going position by position, Votto will be OK, and Philips will always be streaky. Shortstop will be a problem (Gonzo is not the answer nor is Keppinger), and Edwin is a work in process. The outfield is in transition. Dunn and Griffey aren't hitting, but they will, but Center is a problem and will be until Jay Bruce comes along and the Reds decide what they're going to do with Dunn and Griffey. Catching is a train wreck. There isn't a MLB catcher among the three. That needs to be addressed. Pitching? Too many ifs and buts. The starters, with the exception of Volquez and Harang have been horrible and the bullpen is iffy at best.

Give that to any manager and you get 12-19. I say give him time with a better roster or else keep the revolving door going. The guy has won with teams that were constructed properly. This team is the worst constructed Reds team in a while, but it's been the same for the last 7 years.

Caveat Emperor
05-05-2008, 12:40 AM
I'm no Dusty fan, but last I checked he isn't the one that can't hit lefthanded pitching.

Chip R
05-05-2008, 12:44 AM
I'm no Dusty fan, but last I checked he isn't the one that can't hit lefthanded pitching.


To be fair, they haven't done much against right handed pitching either.

Caveat Emperor
05-05-2008, 12:49 AM
To be fair, they haven't done much against right handed pitching either.

Yup.

And, strange as it may seem to some, the following facts cannot be disputed:

* Dusty Baker is 0 for 0 against LHP
* Dusty Baker is 0 for 0 against RHP
* Dusty Baker has 0 wins as a SP
* Dusty Baker has 0 losses as a SP
* Dusty Baker has 0 IP
* Dusty Baker has blown 0 saves
* Dusty Baker has saved 0 games
* The only Error Dusty Baker has is the one that pops up on your calculator when you attempt to compute his ERA.

Maybe we're all looking a little too hard for a scapegoat here.

jojo
05-05-2008, 08:03 AM
Yup.

And, strange as it may seem to some, the following facts cannot be disputed:

* Dusty Baker is 0 for 0 against LHP
* Dusty Baker is 0 for 0 against RHP
* Dusty Baker has 0 wins as a SP
* Dusty Baker has 0 losses as a SP
* Dusty Baker has 0 IP
* Dusty Baker has blown 0 saves
* Dusty Baker has saved 0 games
* The only Error Dusty Baker has is the one that pops up on your calculator when you attempt to compute his ERA.

Maybe we're all looking a little too hard for a scapegoat here.

By the same token, why pay someone $3-4M/yr if they have absolutely no influence on the outcome?

Spring~Fields
05-05-2008, 08:24 AM
By the same token, why pay someone $3-4M/yr if they have absolutely no influence on the outcome?

Certainly would redefine the term management.

Caveat Emperor
05-05-2008, 01:50 PM
By the same token, why pay someone $3-4M/yr if they have absolutely no influence on the outcome?

I agree, it is insane.

But, that money is spent. Crying about it won't do anyone any good.