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WVRedsFan
05-06-2008, 10:16 PM
Much talk about how the Reds score no runs when Harang is on the mound. It's simple. Harang faces every team's No. 1 starter and that means he must be perfect to win (tonight, even if he were perfect, it wouldn't matter). With this club averaging about 4 hits in most games, it wouldn't matter if you had Cy Young pitching, they'd still lose. No hitting=no wins. Pitching is sweet, but offense makes the train run.

reds44
05-06-2008, 10:24 PM
Opening Day: Webb (L)
April 5th: Eaton (ND)
April 10th: Villaneuva (W)
April 15th: Dempster (L)
April 20th: Gallardo (ND)
April 25th: Sanchez (L)
April 30th: Looper (L)
Today: Zambrano (L/ND)

8 starts
2 "No. 1s" faced.

It has very little to do with facing aces, and more so to do with the Reds offense being bad.

Patrick Bateman
05-06-2008, 10:24 PM
Off days, skipped starts, injuries, etc. completely ruin the chance of #1's consistently facing each other. Facing Zambrano today was nothing more than just a coincedence (he could have just as easily faced any other Cubs starter).

Reds Freak
05-06-2008, 10:25 PM
I feel bad for the big guy. I'd say every member of the starting lineup owes Aaron a trip to Jeff Ruby's at some point during the year to make up for it.

Joseph
05-06-2008, 10:27 PM
Bronson got this a couple years ago. Seems like some pitcher gets it every year, this year its Harang. It sucks, but its part of baseball.

Highlifeman21
05-06-2008, 10:28 PM
Opening Day: Webb (L)
April 5th: Eaton (ND)
April 10th: Villaneuva (W)
April 15th: Dempster (L)
April 20th: Gallardo (ND)
April 25th: Sanchez (L)
April 30th: Looper (L)
Today: Zambrano (L/ND)

8 starts
2 "No. 1s" faced.

It has very little to do with facing aces, and more so to do with the Reds offense being bad.

With the current state of the Reds offense, we make plenty of opposing arms look like No. 1s.

jojo
05-06-2008, 10:31 PM
Why even worry about a pitcher's W-L record?

edabbs44
05-06-2008, 10:32 PM
Why even worry about a pitcher's W-L record?

Because total them up and it is the team's W/L record.

RedFanAlways1966
05-06-2008, 10:36 PM
Why even worry about a pitcher's W-L record?

Because if you end up with more wins and losses than anyone else when the career is over, then they might name an award that is given to the best pitcher in each league after you. ;)

jojo
05-06-2008, 10:38 PM
Because total them up and it is the team's W/L record.

If that's the true value then why not just go straight to the standings above the boxscores?

jojo
05-06-2008, 10:43 PM
Because if you end up with more wins and losses than anyone else when the career is over, then they might name an award that is given to the best pitcher in each league after you. ;)

The only win-dependent award that matters is a world championship and that's a team/organisation honor.

RedLegSuperStar
05-06-2008, 10:50 PM
The only win-dependent award that matters is a world championship and that's a team/organisation honor.

Then there is your answer... if your ace can win then that means your team wins.. the more your team wins the better chance you have at winning a championship. I'd rather take the mirror W-L record then where it stands.

This offense is struggling.. point plank. When you can go out and have a football type of scoring game with Atlanta can't seem to muster up the run consistancy over a stretch of games is beyond me. Baserunning should also be something that is addressed.. I don't think I've seen this many blown oppertunities.. The Krivsky move should of sent a message.. aparently not.

guttle11
05-06-2008, 10:50 PM
My amateur math (roughly adding the pitch count they showed briefly on FSN) tells me Zambrano threw somewhere near 60 pitches in the first three innings, and a little over 50 the next 5.

That's not going to cut it. You have to keep the pitcher working. Maybe Hatte and Kepp can hold some "foul this outside corner 2-2 pitch off on purpose" practice. An underrated skill, IMO, is fouling off strikes you can't hit hard to make the pitcher work.

Heath
05-06-2008, 10:53 PM
I thought WV was producing a Carnac the Magnificant

"What are two words that will never be joined together by John Fay?"

jojo
05-06-2008, 10:54 PM
Then there is your answer... if your ace can win then that means your team wins.. the more your team wins the better chance you have at winning a championship. I'd rather take the mirror W-L record then where it stands.

This offense is struggling.. point plank. When you can go out and have a football type of scoring game with Atlanta can't seem to muster up the run consistancy over a stretch of games is beyond me. Baserunning should also be something that is addressed.. I don't think I've seen this many blown oppertunities.. The Krivsky move should of sent a message.. aparently not.

I think focusing on the two bolded phrases speaks volumes about why a pitcher's W-L record isn't important.

edabbs44
05-06-2008, 10:55 PM
If that's the true value then why not just go straight to the standings above the boxscores?

You started posting in this thread by trying to bait someone into a pitcher's W/L record debate.

No one in this thread said that Harang sucks because his W/L said so. It is the team's performance in his starts that is the issue at hand. If the team loses more than it wins when Harang is on the mound, this team really doesn't stand a chance.

jojo
05-06-2008, 10:57 PM
You started posting in this thread by trying to bait someone into a pitcher's W/L record debate.

No I didn't.


No one in this thread said that Harang sucks because his W/L said so. It is the team's performance in his starts that is the issue at hand. If the team loses more than it wins when Harang is on the mound, this team really doesn't stand a chance.

Yep.

PuffyPig
05-06-2008, 11:02 PM
Much talk about how the Reds score no runs when Harang is on the mound. It's simple. Harang faces every team's No. 1 starter and that means he must be perfect to win (tonight, even if he were perfect, it wouldn't matter).


The biggest old wives tale in baseball is that a teams #1 starter always faces another teams #1 starter.

With rainouts, off days, injuries etc, it gets mixed up early and often.

If it was true, then #1 starters would be basically .500 pitchers, due to their competition.

edabbs44
05-06-2008, 11:11 PM
No I didn't.

OK...then when you said this:


Why even worry about a pitcher's W-L record?

Which post were you referring to where someone was actually "worried" about Harang's W-L record?

jojo
05-06-2008, 11:22 PM
OK...then when you said this:

Which post were you referring to where someone was actually "worried" about Harang's W-L record?

Run support and W-L record are flip sides of the coin for pitchers.

Please PM me if you want to debate my motives further.

edabbs44
05-06-2008, 11:27 PM
Run support and W-L record are flip sides of the coin for pitchers.

Please PM me if you want to debate my motives further.

No thanks, not really up for a debate about anyone's motives.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-06-2008, 11:33 PM
The only thing about W/L that matters for pitchers is that it will keep Aaron Harang from ever winning a Cy Young as he pitches for this sorry excuse of a team.

Other than that, I could care less about W/L for a starting pitcher. Aaron Harang is a perfect example why. The guy is putting together another Cy Young-like season and he'll be lucky to win 12 games.

Sad.

WVRedsFan
05-07-2008, 12:21 AM
Opening Day: Webb (L)
April 5th: Eaton (ND)
April 10th: Villaneuva (W)
April 15th: Dempster (L)
April 20th: Gallardo (ND)
April 25th: Sanchez (L)
April 30th: Looper (L)
Today: Zambrano (L/ND)

8 starts
2 "No. 1s" faced.

It has very little to do with facing aces, and more so to do with the Reds offense being bad.

I was thinking of tonight. Maybe it's just that the Reds make every pitcher pitch like a No. 1? Remember the Pittsburgh series?

smith288
05-07-2008, 12:22 AM
If Harang would have pitched a perfect game, we might even have had a chance tonight...

WVPacman
05-07-2008, 01:15 AM
Harang difiniently deserves better than what he has gotten.The guy goes out every night and pitchs his butt off only to watch his offense do nothing.Harang is doing all he can do to help this team win and has had a great season thus far BUT to look at his WL record you would think otherwise.Bottomline is the reds offense has to wake up or it will be a terrible season.Harang probably feels like he is in the movie groundhog day.

dougdirt
05-07-2008, 01:25 AM
Reds - 21 runs scored in 8 Harang starts. Awesome.

mbgrayson
05-07-2008, 10:43 AM
From Bill James Online (http://www.billjamesonline.net):


Cincinnati Reds
2008


Games Started GS RS RA W L
Harang, Aaron 8 22 31 3 5
Arroyo, Brons 7 28 45 2 5
Cueto, Johnny 7 19 34 2 5
Volquez, Edsn 6 35 09 4 2
Fogg, Josh 3 19 24 1 2
Belisle, Matt 3 14 27 1 2
Team Totals 34 137 170 13 21





GS= Games Started
RS= Runs Scored
RA= Runs Allowed
The W/L indicates whether the team won or lost the game, not whether the pitcher got the win or loss.

PuffyPig
05-07-2008, 10:55 AM
The only thing about W/L that matters for pitchers is that it will keep Aaron Harang from ever winning a Cy Young as he pitches for this sorry excuse of a team.

Other than that, I could care less about W/L for a starting pitcher. Aaron Harang is a perfect example why. The guy is putting together another Cy Young-like season and he'll be lucky to win 12 games.

Sad.

Last year Harang went 16-6, and the Reds went 24-10 in his starts.

The non-support has only been a real issue this year.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-07-2008, 11:12 AM
Last year Harang went 16-6, and the Reds went 24-10 in his starts.

The non-support has only been a real issue this year.

Last year:

2-1 win (no-decision) 9 IP, 2 H, 0 ER
1-0 win (no-decision) 7 IP, 3 H, 1 ER
4-3 win (no-decision) 8 IP, 6 H, 1 ER
5-4 win (no decision) 7.2 IP, 10 H, 2 ER
2-1 win (no decision) 10 IP, 7 H, 1 ER
3-4 loss (no decision) 7 IP, 7 H, 2 ER (Blown Save)

WVRedsFan
05-07-2008, 11:42 AM
From Bill James Online (http://www.billjamesonline.net):


Cincinnati Reds
2008


Games Started GS RS RA W L
Harang, Aaron 8 22 31 3 5
Arroyo, Brons 7 28 45 2 5
Cueto, Johnny 7 19 34 2 5
Volquez, Edsn 6 35 09 4 2
Fogg, Josh 3 19 24 1 2
Belisle, Matt 3 14 27 1 2
Team Totals 34 137 170 13 21





GS= Games Started
RS= Runs Scored
RA= Runs Allowed
The W/L indicates whether the team won or lost the game, not whether the pitcher got the win or loss.

From your post, the average score in games the starters have pitched is 4.02-5.00, or a run differential of 1. Wow.

Harang loses his games on average of 2.75-3.87Arroyo loses his games 4.00-6.42.
Cueto loses his games 2.71-4.85.
Volquez wins his games 5.83-1.50.
Fogg loses his games 6.33-8.00.
Belisle loses his games 4.66-9.00.

Replace Harange in the spot where Arroyo is an he wins most games. Funny how that works. But the fact that the Reds are scoring so little runs is simply devastating.

PuffyPig
05-07-2008, 12:07 PM
Last year:

2-1 win (no-decision) 9 IP, 2 H, 0 ER
1-0 win (no-decision) 7 IP, 3 H, 1 ER
4-3 win (no-decision) 8 IP, 6 H, 1 ER
5-4 win (no decision) 7.2 IP, 10 H, 2 ER
2-1 win (no decision) 10 IP, 7 H, 1 ER
3-4 loss (no decision) 7 IP, 7 H, 2 ER (Blown Save)


Every starter is going to run into games where the other starter ptiches well. Well pitched gasmes are fairly routine.

6 no decisions in well pitched games in a season doesn't seem too bad.

BTW, Harang gave up 5 runs in 4 games last year where he got the win. And 5runs in 3 games last year where he got a no decision. That could be 7 additional loses, were he actually went 4-0.

He lost 3 games where he gave up 5+ runs.

So his record in games in which he gave up 5+ runs was actually 4-3 with 3 no decisions.

So, it certainly evened out for Harang last year.

LoganBuck
05-07-2008, 02:28 PM
It was implied on the broadcast today that Harang put a hole in the wall, up the tunnel toward the clubhouse, after he left the game.

Brantley's comment was: Watch out for the quiet guys, when they go off, they go off!

RedsManRick
05-07-2008, 02:46 PM
Harang is not a dude I'd want to cross on a bad day.