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Reds Fanatic
05-07-2008, 12:35 PM
Just when you think this offense can't possibly get worse he bats Patterson and Hairston 1-2.

From Trent:


ReCubs

Reed Johnson lf
Ryan Theriot ss
Derrek Lee 1b
Aramis Ramirez 3b
Kosuke ****udome rf
Geovany Soto c
Ronny Cedeno 2b
Felix Pie cf
Jon Lieber p
Deads

Corey Patterson cf
Jerry Hairston Jr. ss
Ken Griffey Jr. rf
Brandon Phillips 2b
Joey Votto 1b
Adam Dunn lf
Edwin Encarnacion 3b
Paul Bako c
Edinson Volquez p

Benihana
05-07-2008, 12:37 PM
Unbelievable

RedsManRick
05-07-2008, 12:40 PM
Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties.

And the Cubs don't have a LOOGY. Stack the lefties. Do some damage. Unreal. Use your Brain Dusty.

Spring~Fields
05-07-2008, 12:41 PM
The lineup looks like regression to me.

Some comments that went along with the lineup:




Ken Griffey Jr. is back in the No. 3 spot after three games in the two spot. Griffey had two hits Tuesday and one on Monday.
"You guys ask if its for today or permanent, Im just trying to find the right solution for the day. Lately it seems no mater how we mix em, we get the same results," Dusty Baker said. "Junior seems to be swinging better the last couple of days, that was the point of putting him in the second hole, to get to see some pitches. If the leadoff man got on, hed get some fastballs. But the last couple of days weve had trouble getting the leadoff man on. Thats where he**** and feels most comfortable."


C'mon Dusty, use that theory for Dunn too.

WVRedsFan
05-07-2008, 12:43 PM
I can see the wheels turning in dusty's head...

Freel was 0-5 last night, so he figurerd that Patterson could do that and give him better defense. Keppinger is in a slump, so Hairston, hot in AAA, is chosen. Sounds like the top two will go 0-8 today, but with my track record they'll probably have career days today (which is OK by me).

flyer85
05-07-2008, 12:46 PM
someone suggested it was time to draw out of hat. Maybe that is what is going on as Dusty has been changing the batting orders but they still make little sense and there doesn't seem to be any logic to his attempts.

PuffyPig
05-07-2008, 12:47 PM
Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties. Phillips doesn't hit righties.

And the Cubs don't have a LOOGY. Stack the lefties. Do some damage. Unreal. Use your Brain Dusty.

Not to take away from the gist of your post (which is fine), but Sean Marshall is now in the bullpen and is a lefty.

flyer85
05-07-2008, 12:49 PM
And the Cubs don't have a LOOGY. Stack the lefties. even if teams have a good LOOGY not putting the lefties together is conceding defeat and planning for a situation that may never occur. If you don't give pitchers a reprieve then maybe you can build a lead and neutralize the fact the opponent can counter the stacked LHBs late in the game.

edabbs44
05-07-2008, 12:52 PM
I think we are making too much of the lineup thing. While I think his lineups don't make much sense, they still need to hit no matter where they are placed.

danforsman
05-07-2008, 12:53 PM
Score 4+ runs in the first five innings and the effects of the other team's LOOGY are much more likely to be moot. Score 0-2 runs in the first five innings every night and you're battling the LOOGY in late inning situations.

Edskin
05-07-2008, 12:54 PM
I'm honestly not going to bash Dusty for the lineups right now. I'm not sure anything he can put together would look good. Honestly, they pretty much all stink and there isn't any order that would make them less stinky.

I know it's all about maximizing percentages--but are we talking current percentages or career? I'm sure Dusty is just trying to find any way he can to get us to score runs TODAY.

Hairston-Patterson at the top is terrible, but I honestly can't think of any other duo that would be scaring the Cubs this afternoon.

flyer85
05-07-2008, 12:55 PM
I'm honestly not going to bash Dusty for the lineups right now. I'm not sure anything he can put together would look good.
against a guy like Lieber and his slider stacking the lefties would certainly be a start along with removing the CF from the leadoff spot.

Over the last 3 years LHBs OPS .835 off of Lieber while RHBs OPS .689 Not putting your LHBs(Jr, Dunn, Votto) together is absurd.

RedsManRick
05-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Not to take away from the gist of your post (which is fine), but Sean Marshall is now in the bullpen and is a lefty.

Having lefties is not the same as having LOOGYs. They have Howry back there too. But the Cubs don't have any lefty in their pen who is substantially tough on left handed hitters.

Dusty is making out his lineup to avoid a scenario which cannot exist. If he's giving Jerry Hairston and BP more at bats than Dunn and Votto because he doesn't want to them to maybe have to face Bob Howry or Sean Marshall back to back with Junior, we've got a problem.

Splitting the lefties isn't being done to give us a baseball advantage. It's being done so Dusty doesn't have to field the question "Why did you bat two lefties back to back" after a game in which a left-handed pitcher gets them both out in a clutch situation. CYA managing is getting real old.

smith288
05-07-2008, 12:56 PM
Dusty is making an argument that in order to get Griffey in the swing of things, that he will put him in the 2 spot to see more pitches. Yet Dunn remains, never to see the world from that vantage.

Big name manager, salary and all and we have the same bs.

Screwball
05-07-2008, 12:57 PM
I think we are making too much of the lineup thing. While I think his lineups don't make much sense, they still need to hit no matter where they are placed.

Yep, although I have a real problem with today's lineup. Hitters 1-4 might get on base twice all game.

toledodan
05-07-2008, 12:57 PM
in fairness to dusty what else do you want him to do? i haven't looked at hariston's numbers lately but he was hitting well since called up. i think its time to call bruce up and either sink or swim with him in the everyday lineup. as bad as this team is i would see if there was someone else from AAA or AA that may be ready for a look as well. i'm sick of teams like arizona and atlanta always bringing in young talent and letting them play but we can't. lets not start their arbitration clock early is getting old. if they turn out good we will deal with it 5 years. aren't we always on a 5 year plan anyway?

Spring~Fields
05-07-2008, 12:58 PM
I can see the wheels turning in dusty's head...



Look at what Dusty says and think back on the past lineups and the struggles all along.

1. "If the leadoff man got on, he’d get some fastballs."

Dusty supports that he is aware of this, it becomes apparent that he could have done this with Keppinger when Keppinger was hitting well, but Dusty insisted and still insists on placing others at the top.

2. "that was the point of putting him in the second hole, to get to see some pitches,"

Dusty supports that he believes in this theory, he could have been doing this for Adam Dunn along the way beyond the small sample that he tried Griffey in the two slot.

3. "Lately it seems no mater how we mix ‘em, we get the same results,"
Dusty hasn’t really mixed them, a very small sample of testing a mix and primarily with the higher OBP down in the order.

The manager works against his own thoughts or beliefs.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-07-2008, 01:09 PM
But he's really good in the clubhouse and the guys like him a whole heckuva lot.

dougdirt
05-07-2008, 01:10 PM
So we continue to have 3 hitters with an OPS over .800 and they bat 5-7-8. When your three best hitters are batting in the bottom half of the lineup, and two of them directly in front of the pitcher, you aren't going to score many runs.

smith288
05-07-2008, 01:12 PM
Look at what Dusty says and think back on the past lineups and the struggles all along.

1. "If the leadoff man got on, he’d get some fastballs."

Dusty supports that he is aware of this, it becomes apparent that he could have done this with Keppinger when Keppinger was hitting well, but Dusty insisted and still insists on placing others at the top.

2. "that was the point of putting him in the second hole, to get to see some pitches,"

Dusty supports that he believes in this theory, he could have been doing this for Adam Dunn along the way beyond the small sample that he tried Griffey in the two slot.

3. "Lately it seems no mater how we mix ‘em, we get the same results,"
Dusty hasn’t really mixed them, a very small sample of testing a mix and primarily with the higher OBP down in the order.

The manager works against his own thoughts or beliefs.
Sounds like Dusty is a successful manager despite his theories and was blessed with stacked teams.

Give him a team with moderate talent that doesnt meet the typical stereostypes of small, obp type of hitters and big SLG only htters and he is clueless.

Kc61
05-07-2008, 01:13 PM
The lineup is fine. Some new blood at leadoff and second, day game after night game, two rested guys. Phillips doesn't hit righties that well, but he should be able to handle Lieber. Good game to rest Keppinger with off day tomorrow, fly ball pitcher for the Reds so Hairston at shortstop is ok.

Really, the Reds should have a big pitching advantage in this game. The lineup is no excuse if they fail to score runs, as they so often do.

And for the high OPS guys near the bottom of the lineup -- they still can get hits and knock in runs from those spots in the order. There is no law saying that if you hit fifth, or seventh, or eighth, you have to go out quietly.

No excuse to lose this game.

flyer85
05-07-2008, 01:13 PM
Lieber has awful splits, much more effective against RHBs yet Dusty goes out of his way to negate his advantage.

dougdirt
05-07-2008, 01:14 PM
Lieber has awful splits, much more effective against RHBs yet Dusty goes out of his way to negate his advantage.

That would mean that Dusty has a clue what Lieber does outside of his W/L and ERA.....

AmarilloRed
05-07-2008, 01:16 PM
In this seven-game stretch, the Reds are batting .183 (40-for-219) as a team.

As long as the Reds continue to struggle with hitting, it may not make much difference in what order the lineup is made out.

RedsManRick
05-07-2008, 01:19 PM
That would mean that Dusty has a clue what Lieber does outside of his W/L and ERA.....

C'mon Doug, be fair. Dusty managed Lieber. He knows him better than that. I'm sure he also knows what he likes to eat for lunch and what his favorites color is too.

Raisor
05-07-2008, 01:24 PM
And for the high OPS guys near the bottom of the lineup -- they still can get hits and knock in runs from those spots in the order. There is no law saying that if you hit fifth, or seventh, or eighth, you have to go out quietly.

No excuse to lose this game.


Except those guys aren't going to get as many chances. That's the problem.

SteelSD
05-07-2008, 01:24 PM
Lieber has awful splits, much more effective against RHBs yet Dusty goes out of his way to negate his advantage.

Meh. Baker doesn't have time to consider things like that. Right now, he's probably in the Cubs' clubhouse talking to all those guys who want to come play for him.

dougdirt
05-07-2008, 01:25 PM
Meh. Baker doesn't have time to consider things like that. Right now, he's probably in the Cubs' clubhouse talking to all those guys who want to come play for him.

I really hope he is. Maybe thatll get him suspended from baseball for a while.

Raisor
05-07-2008, 01:26 PM
Where's Ray Knight when you need him?

BuckeyeRedleg
05-07-2008, 01:33 PM
The lineup is fine.

If that lineup is fine, no lineup is ever wrong.

Stormy
05-07-2008, 02:00 PM
against a guy like Lieber and his slider stacking the lefties would certainly be a start along with removing the CF from the leadoff spot.

Over the last 3 years LHBs OPS .835 off of Lieber while RHBs OPS .689 Not putting your LHBs(Jr, Dunn, Votto) together is absurd.

:thumbup:

edabbs44
05-07-2008, 02:01 PM
So we continue to have 3 hitters with an OPS over .800 and they bat 5-7-8. When your three best hitters are batting in the bottom half of the lineup, and two of them directly in front of the pitcher, you aren't going to score many runs.

Our 5 and 7 hitters have lost a (roughly) collective 190 points off their respective OPS' over the last week and a half. Our 8 hitter is Paul Bako.

No one in this lineup is exactly forcing Dusty's hand right now.

RedsManRick
05-07-2008, 02:01 PM
Now I see why hitting lefties back to back was such a bad idea.....

At least nobody was on base for that.

Stormy
05-07-2008, 02:02 PM
Dusty is making an argument that in order to get Griffey in the swing of things, that he will put him in the 2 spot to see more pitches. Yet Dunn remains, never to see the world from that vantage.

Big name manager, salary and all and we have the same bs.

Dusty has certainly constructed BS, but not the "same" BS. Our no-name manager Petey Mac had this same team absolutely flourishing offensively, and he did so with a great lineup design and hitting philosophy (diametric opposition to everything Dusty has promoted).

flyer85
05-07-2008, 02:03 PM
there is no doubt that the Reds 5-8 is far superior to the 1-4

toledodan
05-07-2008, 02:04 PM
can we place any left handed pitchers in the lineup?:D

vaticanplum
05-07-2008, 02:04 PM
I would just like to state for the record that I would really like a game thread today. MLB audio -- and all of mlb.com for that matter -- is not loading for me and I'm going crazy hearing all these fireworks outside with no clue of what's going on.

BCubb2003
05-07-2008, 02:04 PM
Somewhere Aaron Harang is weeping.

flyer85
05-07-2008, 02:05 PM
3 LHBs and 3 HRs in the 2nd ... it's an absolute fluke I tell ya.

BTW, Bako has now tied his career high for HRs in a season.

toledodan
05-07-2008, 02:05 PM
Somewhere Aaron Harang is weeping.


understatement of the year!:thumbup:

Reds Fanatic
05-07-2008, 02:06 PM
3 leftys all hit HRs in the 2nd. Votto, Dunn and Bako sorry I know it is not a game thread but that is what the fireworks were about.

Stormy
05-07-2008, 02:06 PM
Our 5 and 7 hitters have lost a (roughly) collective 190 points off their respective OPS' over the last week and a half. Our 8 hitter is Paul Bako.

No one in this lineup is exactly forcing Dusty's hand right now.

The lineup scored nearly 0.93 less runs per game for Narron than for Petey Mac, despite identical personnel. Lineup construct, personnel usage, and the intangible ways they effect individual performance haven't been fully quantified yet, despite studies suggesting otherwise. IMHO Regardless, who Dusty plays, why he plays, where he plays them, and how he utilizes them is all beyond absurd.

toledodan
05-07-2008, 02:07 PM
of course patterson can't figure it out.

toledodan
05-07-2008, 02:09 PM
harriston 2 run bomb! go dusty LOL!

RedsManRick
05-07-2008, 02:09 PM
4 HR, 5 R. Now maybe Dusty can see the value of a walk every now and again.

flyer85
05-07-2008, 02:10 PM
The Cubs have a bunch of guys they don't seem to utilize that I would love to have(Pie, Cedeno, Hill, Gallagher )... instead WK managed to get Buck Coats.

flyer85
05-07-2008, 02:11 PM
Lieber channeling Arroyo at the moment

BCubb2003
05-07-2008, 02:11 PM
Dead rallies litter the field.

RedsManRick
05-07-2008, 02:12 PM
Dead rallies litter the stands.

Fixed.

flyer85
05-07-2008, 02:12 PM
Dead rallies litter the field.:beerme:

Raisor
05-07-2008, 02:13 PM
POSTERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!

Take back the game thread for all of man kind!!!

Caveat Emperor
05-07-2008, 02:14 PM
Reds to Mean: "Don't mind us, we'll be up to see you in a second or two."

flyer85
05-07-2008, 02:14 PM
POSTERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!

Take back the game thread for all of man kind!!!I'm sure the bandwidth cost is down quite a bit. :D

REDREAD
05-07-2008, 02:15 PM
Where's Ray Knight when you need him?

Yep, we need Fogg in the rotation as the 6th starter. :lol:

Falls City Beer
05-07-2008, 02:17 PM
The Cubs have a bunch of guys they don't seem to utilize that I would love to have(Pie, Cedeno, Hill, Gallagher )... instead WK managed to get Buck Coats.

More evidence that you don't have to be a SABR-heavy organization or massively rich to get good border talent.

flyer85
05-07-2008, 02:19 PM
More evidence that you don't have to be a SABR-heavy organization or massively rich to get good border talent.the Cubs still do some absurdly strange stuff ... sending Hill down, batting Soriano leadoff, putting Lieber instead of Marshall(who I like a lot) in the rotation, etc.

NJReds
05-07-2008, 02:20 PM
The Cubs have a bunch of guys they don't seem to utilize that I would love to have(Pie, Cedeno, Hill, Gallagher )... instead WK managed to get Buck Coats.

... and Matt Murton.

flyer85
05-07-2008, 02:20 PM
... and Matt Murton.and Marshall(I forgot him)

REDREAD
05-07-2008, 02:21 PM
4 HR, 5 R. Now maybe Dusty can see the value of a walk every now and again.


Look on the bright side.. 5 Runs.. Dusty's lineup was genious ;)

cumberlandreds
05-07-2008, 02:22 PM
Thanks for the updates. I just got back from a meeting and wondered how the heck the Reds managed five runs.

REDREAD
05-07-2008, 02:23 PM
How sweet it would be to win 2 out of three from the Cubs..

flyer85
05-07-2008, 02:23 PM
Thanks for the updates. I just got back from a meeting and wondered how the heck the Reds managed five runs.not clogging the bases

Falls City Beer
05-07-2008, 02:23 PM
the Cubs still do some absurdly strange stuff ... sending Hill down, batting Soriano leadoff, putting Lieber instead of Marshall(who I like a lot) in the rotation, etc.

But that doesn't change the point of being able to acquire these guys. I think that Jocketty will know how to deploy them--if he can acquire them. Jocketty made a number of silk purses out of sow's ears with his bullpens and benches the last five seasons or so.

WebScorpion
05-07-2008, 05:40 PM
At the risk of getting this 'lineup' thread closed down:
The Reds won it 9-0
Votto hit 3 homers off of 3 different pitchers to include the aforementioned lefty Marshall.

Just goes to show it doesn't matter too much how you line them up, if they all hit, you usually end up winning. :thumbup:

reds44
05-07-2008, 05:43 PM
Dusty really needs to stick Hairston in CF until he stops hitting.

WMR
05-07-2008, 06:16 PM
At the risk of getting this 'lineup' thread closed down:
The Reds won it 9-0
Votto hit 3 homers off of 3 different pitchers to include the aforementioned lefty Marshall.

Just goes to show it doesn't matter too much how you line them up, if they all hit, you usually end up winning. :thumbup:

Except the majority of the time when they're NOT all hitting. Having your most productive hitters at the bottom of your batting order is just idiocy, plain and simple.

PuffyPig
05-07-2008, 06:43 PM
Yep, although I have a real problem with today's lineup. Hitters 1-4 might get on base twice all game.

How about 7 times, including 2 HR's.

Screwball
05-07-2008, 06:45 PM
How about 7 times, including 2 HR's.

Glad I was wrong. :beerme:

Big Klu
05-08-2008, 01:21 AM
Congratulations also to Adam Dunn, who tied George Foster for fifth place on the Reds all-time home run list.


Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds All-Time Home Run Leaders
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Ted Kluszewski - 251
5. George Foster - 244
5. Adam Dunn - 244
7. Eric Davis - 203
8. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 199
9. Barry Larkin - 198
10. Vada Pinson - 186
11. Wally Post - 172
12. Gus Bell - 160
13. Joe Morgan - 152
13. Pete Rose - 152
15. Lee May - 147
16. Dan Driessen - 133
17. Reggie Sanders - 125
18. Ernie Lombardi - 120
19. Sean Casey - 118
20. Frank McCormick - 110
21. Dave Parker - 107
22. Chris Sabo - 104
23. Dave Concepcion - 101
24. Gordy Coleman - 98
25. Paul O'Neill - 96

WVRedsFan
05-08-2008, 01:26 AM
At the risk of getting this 'lineup' thread closed down:
The Reds won it 9-0
Votto hit 3 homers off of 3 different pitchers to include the aforementioned lefty Marshall.

Just goes to show it doesn't matter too much how you line them up, if they all hit, you usually end up winning. :thumbup:

Just curious. Why would discussing a game get a thread shut down? That seem counterproductive to the purpose of this board.

Oh, i forgot. We're in punishment mode.

Never mind.