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flyer85
05-07-2008, 01:28 PM
is having his career year, tied his season HR high today. Career OPS is .624. At some point he is going to crash and burn but I will give Dusty credit for riding the hot bat. Now the question is will he know when the worm turns.

princeton
05-07-2008, 01:33 PM
it takes catchers a bit longer to figure out how to hit

Bill Plummer finally became a fine hitter after he turned 65.

don't get me started about Sonny "King Kong" Roberto

Falls City Beer
05-07-2008, 01:34 PM
is having his career year, tied his season HR high today. Career OPS is .624. At some point he is going to crash and burn but I will give Dusty credit for riding the hot bat. Now the question is will he know when the worm turns.

The catching alternatives on this team suck. I won't hold it against Dusty if he continues to play Bako; it's not like Ross will provide anything more in the way of defense. And Ross redefines futility with the bat.

HumnHilghtFreel
05-07-2008, 01:39 PM
If he can keep it up a while longer, he could be some nice trade bait by the deadline.

RedlegJake
05-07-2008, 01:40 PM
Bako will certainly cool off some but its not improbable that this is going to be his career year. He's a guy I root for but at the same time it would be like the Reds to extend his contract expecting him to repeat this season like they did with Ross.

15fan
05-07-2008, 01:46 PM
it takes catchers a bit longer to figure out how to hit

Bill Plummer finally became a fine hitter after he turned 65.


So there's still hope for Dane Sardinha?

Also, how does this work with your Boone theory?

(The one from back in the fastball.com days that asserted that Boones develop later. Thus, don't give up on Aaron / Bret too early.)

More specifically, let's work with Bob.

Did Bob's catcherness dominate his Booneness?

Or did his Booneness dominate his catcherness?

Maybe both Booneness and catcherness are recessive and only show up when both are present? Were granddad and dad both double recessive, while Aaron & Bret are carriers?

Lots of hypotheses to explore with this one.

lollipopcurve
05-07-2008, 01:48 PM
don't get me started about Sonny "King Kong" Roberto

no, please, go right ahead, with a dash of Wakamatsu sauce

WebScorpion
05-07-2008, 04:47 PM
Why not Bako in his career year? We had Ross in his career year. That Krivsky must have had a magic 'Backup catcher gonna have a career year 8-ball' that told him which third catcher to pick up every year. I wonder if he left it in his desk... http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/whacky025.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

BuckeyeRedleg
05-07-2008, 04:52 PM
The problem is, that this FO signs them up after one career year and then they turn back into a pumpkin. I love Bako as a backup catcher until he can no longer get down in the catcher position. He is a solid backstop and I'd assume one of the better defensive catchers and handlers of pitchers in the game, since he sporting that career .624 OPS. I mean, why else would he still be playing if he wasn't one of the best behind the plate?

With that said, I agree to ride his hot bat. Ride it as long as possible and find somewhere to dispose of Javy Valentin.

gm
05-07-2008, 05:11 PM
How many other hitters would enjoy their career years playing in the GAB?

(Look at how "home park effect" prolonged Juan Castro's career, for instance)

Reds1
05-07-2008, 05:22 PM
I'm very pleased with Bako - what a great surprise. When you look at the sum of it's parts with a team with Keppinger, Griffey, Dunn, Phillips and now Votto, EE, and Paul Backo why can we not score runs. I am one that thinks this team will get hot and get back in the race. But Bako great. That being said I'd trade him in a package with Freel, etc. if we could get something decent. :)

Big Klu
05-08-2008, 08:04 AM
So there's still hope for Dane Sardinha?

Also, how does this work with your Boone theory?

(The one from back in the fastball.com days that asserted that Boones develop later. Thus, don't give up on Aaron / Bret too early.)

More specifically, let's work with Bob.

Did Bob's catcherness dominate his Booneness?

Or did his Booneness dominate his catcherness?

Maybe both Booneness and catcherness are recessive and only show up when both are present? Were granddad and dad both double recessive, while Aaron & Bret are carriers?

Lots of hypotheses to explore with this one.

Ray Boone was not a catcher--he was a 3B/SS. So he was a carrier, too.

Chip R
05-08-2008, 09:13 AM
Bako will certainly cool off some but its not improbable that this is going to be his career year. He's a guy I root for but at the same time it would be like the Reds to extend his contract expecting him to repeat this season like they did with Ross.


For one thing, we have a different general manager. He may not decide to re-sign Bako. And, for another thing, would it be such a bad idea to re-sign him? I'm not talking huge money but something reasonable for next year and perhaps an option for 2010. Unless, of course, you're satisfied with Ross and Valentin.

Kc61
05-08-2008, 09:45 AM
This is the one veteran guy who the Reds absolutely should not trade, should not view as trade bait.

If Reds do trade Bako, who exactly catches?

Bako is good defensively, has a veteran catcher's knowledge, and is hitting. Obviously he will cool off, but he still is better than the alternatives. And he currently appears able to continue, although he has logged many catching miles.

So for those of you who are "trading Bako at the deadline" or "trading Bako while he is hot" please let us know who the Reds catcher should be. Thank you.

buckeyenut
05-08-2008, 10:04 AM
Trade him if you can get solid value if you are not in the race. He is a backup catcher, not a cog to a championship team. If you can get a kid with starter upside or better, you do it, even if it means Ross, Javy or who knows catching.

RedlegJake
05-08-2008, 10:31 AM
I'm all for extending Bako as long as it's not an excessive contract. One year, perhaps an option. My worry is players with career years signing three year deals for too much money. If I can move Javy and Ross out, I'd bring up Hanigan or Colina to back up Bako. Both Hanigan and Colina are as viable as Ross (or more so) as backup catchers.

flyer85
05-08-2008, 10:35 AM
I'm all for extending Bako as long as it's not an excessive contract. One year, perhaps an option. Bako is what he is. A below average career backup having a hot start, if the GM can't come up with a solution better than Bako there isn't any hope anyway. Bako is the exact wrong kind of player to offer an extension.

Kc61
05-08-2008, 10:43 AM
I wouldn't give Bako any kind of meaningful extension. But he is the best alternative for this year and perhaps next. He catches a good game and has an idea at the plate.

The Reds need a young catcher. Mesoraco is several years away. This is a position that needs an upgrade. Bako/Ross is the way I would go until that person is located.

Jpup
05-08-2008, 10:49 AM
Chad Moeller is having a good year with the Yankees and nobody wanted him. He resigned in New York after being DFA'd.

RedlegJake
05-09-2008, 12:32 AM
Bako is what he is. A below average career backup having a hot start, if the GM can't come up with a solution better than Bako there isn't any hope anyway. Bako is the exact wrong kind of player to offer an extension.

That's easy to say, a lot harder to produce especially when there are other areas of concern, imo, much more urgent. And who are these catchers? Laird? Heck he IS Bako. There are 3 or 4 guys out there who hit AND catch well. They won't come cheap in a trade and those chips may be better spent filling other holes. Comparing the Reds catchers to other teams it's not our worst position by far. Bako and Hanigan would be the way I'd go with Colina and Tatum in AAA next year if we need one of them. What happens in Dayton with Mes will have a lot to say about the direction the Reds go too, I'd think.

AmarilloRed
05-09-2008, 12:40 AM
Bako is a backup catcher having a career year. I would play him all year long as long as he continues to produce the way he is right now, but I would not give him an extension.

WVRedsFan
05-09-2008, 01:46 AM
I'm all for extending Bako as long as it's not an excessive contract. One year, perhaps an option. My worry is players with career years signing three year deals for too much money. If I can move Javy and Ross out, I'd bring up Hanigan or Colina to back up Bako. Both Hanigan and Colina are as viable as Ross (or more so) as backup catchers.

ugh. Same attitude that got us David Ross for how much money?

We need to find a catcher who can play every day, contirbute, and not be a liability. this isn't Bako or Ross or Valentin. Time to realistically look at what we have and make a proactive search for what we need. It ain't Bako and never will be. I'd be satisfied if he were the backup, but offering an extended contract is right out of the Krivsky book of bad decisions.

Sorry, but no.

Cooper
05-09-2008, 10:30 AM
This is an opportunity. Bako has bought his GM an extra month to look for a decent replacement -that's all it is. He will eventually turn back into Bako. The FO shouldn't deceive itself into thinking this problem is solved.

TRF
05-09-2008, 10:35 AM
If Bako OPS's north of .800 for the whole season, I offer him a 1 year deal in September, around 2 mil. If he ends up as the backup, that's still reasonable, and he's been good with the younger pitchers. But the Reds need a real long term option and soon.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-09-2008, 10:36 AM
If he finishes with an OPS above .700, he is worth offering a 1 year deal for 750K to 1 M.

Taking his bat out of the equation, he is a better than average catcher. Even at his age, I would take him over Valentin any day and Valentin has made 2.5M over the past two years. yuck.

Chip R
05-09-2008, 10:51 AM
ugh. Same attitude that got us David Ross for how much money?

We need to find a catcher who can play every day, contirbute, and not be a liability. this isn't Bako or Ross or Valentin. Time to realistically look at what we have and make a proactive search for what we need. It ain't Bako and never will be. I'd be satisfied if he were the backup, but offering an extended contract is right out of the Krivsky book of bad decisions.

Sorry, but no.


If we can find better, I'm all over it. But if he puts up decent numbers, there may be somewhat of a demand for him next year. If he's wanting $3M a year, I tell him, good luck and God bless.

flyer85
05-09-2008, 11:24 AM
If he finishes with an OPS above .700, he is worth offering a 1 year deal for 750K to 1 M. If the Reds get lucky and Bako pulls a career season out of the hat, isn't the prudent play to say thank you very much rather than betting he will do it again?

IMHO, if Bako has a good season(and he has a nice start), I would see it as an aberration rather than a new level of performance.

HokieRed
05-09-2008, 11:30 AM
This is precisely where it's good to have Jocketty, whose experience will hopefully lead him to be a little more cautious about resignings than Wayne was. Not an argument for canning Wayne, who got screwed IMO, but just maybe a place where Jocketty's actually preferable.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-09-2008, 11:35 AM
If the Reds get lucky and Bako pulls a career season out of the hat, isn't the prudent play to say thank you very much rather than betting he will do it again?

IMHO, if Bako has a good season(and he has a nice start), I would see it as an aberration rather than a new level of performance.

I didn't say overpay him and sign him to a multi-year contract (Freel, Ross, etc.). I'm saying re-sign him in 2009 for what you paid him for 2008 (750K).

If they brought him in in 2008 with a career .620 something OPS and then he plays over his head (like he is doing), why not sign him back up at the same price?

That's not gambling, being foolish, or banking on another aberration.

flyer85
05-09-2008, 11:41 AM
if Jocketty can't do better than Bako for 2009 then I have no confidence he is going to turn anything around. Bako's career screams replacement level and if the GM can't do better than replacement level ...

lollipopcurve
05-09-2008, 11:56 AM
Bako's career screams replacement level and if the GM can't do better than replacement level

Catching is real thin around baseball. You want something above average, you're going to have to pay for it.

Falls City Beer
05-09-2008, 11:58 AM
Catching is real thin around baseball. You want something above average, you're going to have to pay for it.

It is thin. Bako's no long term answer at all, obviously, but now is just a bad, bad time in the season (and in general) to try to trade for anything but a defensive catcher. No one's trading a total-package catcher right now.

flyer85
05-09-2008, 12:01 PM
No one's trading a total-package catcher right now.the Reds don't need a total package guy, just one who can provide a return a fair amount above replacement level ... the odds are that neither Ross or Bako is the answer to that in 2009.

Falls City Beer
05-09-2008, 12:04 PM
the Reds don't need a total package guy, just one who can provide a return a fair amount above replacement level ... the odds are that neither Ross or Bako is the answer to that in 2009.

If a catcher's offense is good (which is what you're asking for, right?), then presumably he plays defense well enough to at least stick at that position (and doesn't get moved to first). That, IMO, by definition, is a total-package catcher.

I think you can find a defense-only guy, though.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-09-2008, 12:10 PM
if Jocketty can't do better than Bako for 2009 then I have no confidence he is going to turn anything around. Bako's career screams replacement level and if the GM can't do better than replacement level ...


As a backup?

I don't see the big deal. He's better than Valentin who makes nearly twice as much.

flyer85
05-09-2008, 12:10 PM
If a catcher's offense is good I guess the issue is what defines "good" at the catching position. The Reds have never really addressed the catching problems in the minors. For that there is a price to be paid. A few years back I hoped they would have taken Suzuki with their 2nd round pick(instead IIRC, they took Szymanski).

flyer85
05-09-2008, 12:12 PM
As a backup?backup, they don't even have a real starter at the moment. They can worry about a replacement level backup(that's what Bako is, it's why he spends a year somehwere then moves on) after they find a starter. Jocketty has an incredibly difficult job cut out for him.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-09-2008, 12:16 PM
backup, they don't even have a real starter at the moment. They can worry about a replacement level backup(that's what Bako is, it's why he spends a year somehwere then moves on) after they find a starter. Jocketty has an incredibly difficult job cut out for him.


Why give yourself two bodies to worry about when you can lock him up and then go find your starter? Beggars can't be choosers.

lollipopcurve
05-09-2008, 12:20 PM
the Reds don't need a total package guy, just one who can provide a return a fair amount above replacement level .

Would be nice, and would be expensive.

flyer85
05-09-2008, 12:21 PM
Why give yourself two bodies to worry about when you can lock him up and then go find your starter? Beggars can't be choosers.because a bad Bako year(like 2006) ... and he has had a number of them, he isn't even an adequate backup. Wait and you may find an option superior to Bako.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-09-2008, 12:26 PM
For 750K. Who? Chad Moeller? I think worrying about an upgrade over Bako for backup catcher should be the least of WJ's concerns this offseason.

flyer85
05-09-2008, 12:32 PM
I think worrying about an upgrade over Bako for backup catcher should be the least of WJ's concerns this offseason.or worrying about Paul Bako at all until they figure out who the 2009 starter will be ... no use even wasting the time or money on a backup until you figure out who the starter is. Then you go find a backup that fits along with that player.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-09-2008, 12:49 PM
or worrying about Paul Bako at all until they figure out who the 2009 starter will be ... no use even wasting the time or money on a backup until you figure out who the starter is. Then you go find a backup that fits along with that player.


Fair enough. I guess that's why you have guys like Tatum and Hanigan anyway.