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View Full Version : Is it time to jettison Corey Patterson?



LoganBuck
05-07-2008, 04:13 PM
I have grown weary of the Patterson debacle. The only way to stop the madness is to cut him. Walt Jocketty and Bob Castellini can talk about ending the losing all they want but until the cut the abscesses off the roster it will not end. Dusty Baker keeps trotting him out there so he doesn't get it, and he never will.

His current line is .191/.252/.415 and those numbers are bloated by his first week of the season his stats since then are much worse.

Falls City Beer
05-07-2008, 04:14 PM
No.

SMcGavin
05-07-2008, 04:14 PM
It's time to hit him eighth, but not to cut him.

RedsManRick
05-07-2008, 04:15 PM
Is it April 1st already?

flyer85
05-07-2008, 04:16 PM
He certainly serves no purpose. While he defense is better than average he is exactly what is not needed from an offensive standpoint. I wouldn't mind seeing him go but I want options other than Freel/Hairston/Hopper.

RedsManRick
05-07-2008, 04:19 PM
Patterson's just fine as a 5th OF who can provide great defense and some LH pop. But you just don't want him playing everyday, particularly leading off.

Spring~Fields
05-07-2008, 04:22 PM
His current line is .191/.252/.415 and those numbers are bloated by his first week of the season his stats since then are much worse.

Good point they are inflated from early in the season. Patterson is still a good defensive replacement and could bat lower in the order and maybe produce.

The GM could make a point of talking to his manager about Pattersons leading off and influence a change there, simple enough.

fearofpopvol1
05-07-2008, 04:23 PM
Patterson's just fine as a 5th OF who can provide great defense and some LH pop. But you just don't want him playing everyday, particularly leading off.

My thoughts exactly. Plus he has speed (for the bench). I think he's a solid bench player to have, but at this juncture, he shouldn't be starting daily.

redsrule2500
05-07-2008, 04:24 PM
Don't cut him, he's fine for the bench as a pinch runner, occasional pinch hitter or defensive sub.

LoganBuck
05-07-2008, 04:32 PM
Cutting him has more to do with Dusty Baker.

If Corey Patterson shall cause thee to sin, cut him, and cast him from the team: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy team members should be purged, and not that thy whole body should be cast into losing.

Highlifeman21
05-07-2008, 05:54 PM
I really don't want to think about having anyone else patrol CF defensively for the Reds.

Patterson's the best we've seen around these parts since Mike Cameron.

Granted, Patterson should only bat 7th or 8th, but we need his glove and his range out there in CF with Griffey in RF.

reds44
05-07-2008, 05:56 PM
I think he is okay as a 5th outfielder as a PR and defensive replacement, but the problem is Dusty's needs to bat him leadoff when he plays.

Who would you call up from AAA anyway other than Bruce? Dickerson is the only other CF down there. He has a similar game to Patteron, but got off to a really slow start in AAA. He's been coming around lately.

redsrule2500
05-07-2008, 05:59 PM
It's almost a bad joke that Dusty keeps running this guy out there leadoff....

KronoRed
05-07-2008, 07:44 PM
Cut him? nah he has some decent defense, get him out of the top 7 spots of the lineup..yes yes yes.

Raisor
05-07-2008, 07:46 PM
Cut him? nah he has some decent defense, get him out of the top 7 spots of the lineup..yes yes yes.

But like others have said, when he plays, he's leading off. Dusty can't help himself.

Time to take the keys away, Dusty has had enough.

Patrick Bateman
05-07-2008, 07:52 PM
Watching Freel patrol CF makes me really admire Patterson's skills. Yes, his hititng sucks, and he's at a poor fit in the order, but still, I think Patterson's defense more than makes up the difference. The effect he has on turning batted balls into outs is superb, especially when his peers are absolutely miserable at it. This team's defense is awful... Patterson is one of the only bright spots, and that's why he needs to stay.... he has a role in some capacity, even if it is as a reserve. It's not like the alternatives are such great hitters that they can make up for the lack of defensive ability.

*BaseClogger*
05-07-2008, 08:03 PM
Watching Freel patrol CF makes me really admire Patterson's skills. Yes, his hititng sucks, and he's at a poor fit in the order, but still, I think Patterson's defense more than makes up the difference. The effect he has on turning batted balls into outs is superb, especially when his peers are absolutely miserable at it. This team's defense is awful... Patterson is one of the only bright spots, and that's why he needs to stay.... he has a role in some capacity, even if it is as a reserve. It's not like the alternatives are such great hitters that they can make up for the lack of defensive ability.

Yup. No Jeff Keppinger saving grace in CF...

GAC
05-07-2008, 09:37 PM
We owe him 3 mil regardless, so why cut him unless you've got a viable body to replace him? And unless Bruce is called up you've got Freel or Hopper.

You just need to borrow one of Adam Dunn's bats and have a heart to heart meeting with Baker in his office and explain to Dusty that this is the same Corey Patterson he had in Chicago, not a "new and improved" version, and maximize his talents as far as a defensive replacement in CF; but minimize his liabilities with the bat.

Raisor
05-07-2008, 10:05 PM
We owe him 3 mil regardless, so why cut him unless you've got a viable body to replace him? And unless Bruce is called up you've got Freel or Hopper.

.

There's your answer: Bruce.

jojo
05-07-2008, 10:13 PM
Yup. No Jeff Keppinger saving grace in CF...

Is there actually a contingent of people who seriously want Keppy to play CF?

*BaseClogger*
05-07-2008, 10:22 PM
Is there actually a contingent of people who seriously want Keppy to play CF?

Not me--I was responding to AK's observation that there are no alternatives to Patterson that can hit while playing less adequate defense... ala Jeff Keppinger...

Falls City Beer
05-07-2008, 10:37 PM
Not me--I was responding to AK's observation that there are no alternatives to Patterson that can hit while playing less adequate defense... ala Jeff Keppinger...

How is Keppinger fundamentally different from Freel in this regard?

*BaseClogger*
05-07-2008, 10:51 PM
How is Keppinger fundamentally different from Freel in this regard?

Because Freel isn't a good hitter...

nate
05-07-2008, 11:01 PM
Is there actually a contingent of people who seriously want Keppy to play CF?

Well, yeah...if we want him to lead off he _has to_ play CF!

Right?

Chip R
05-07-2008, 11:44 PM
Well, yeah...if we want him to lead off he _has to_ play CF!

Right?


Exactly. Or else someone kidnaps Patterson and Keppinger, makes up Keppinger to look like Patterson and then keep Patterson and release Keppinger. ;)

Danny Serafini
05-08-2008, 12:17 AM
Corey Patterson is a necessary evil right now. He's a terrible hitter, but somebody has to cover the ground between Dunn and Griffey, and he's the best at it. He just needs to fall about seven spots in the order.

LoganBuck
05-08-2008, 01:16 AM
Corey Patterson is a necessary evil right now. He's a terrible hitter, but somebody has to cover the ground between Dunn and Griffey, and he's the best at it. He just needs to fall about seven spots in the order.

I see this logic in this thread. This way of thinking lead was prevalent during Juan Castro's tenure. In all of professional baseball, you are telling me that their are not players that can be acquired that suck less than Corey Patterson? Walt Jocketty traded Kent Bottenfield and Adam Kennedy for Jim Edmonds.

Walt do something, please end the madness.

Danny Serafini
05-08-2008, 10:14 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have someone who can field and hit. But if my options are Patterson, Freel and Hopper, I'll begrudgingly take Patterson right now.

Spring~Fields
05-08-2008, 10:28 AM
We owe him 3 mil regardless, so why cut him unless you've got a viable body to replace him? And unless Bruce is called up you've got Freel or Hopper.

You just need to borrow one of Adam Dunn's bats and have a heart to heart meeting with Baker in his office and explain to Dusty that this is the same Corey Patterson he had in Chicago, not a "new and improved" version, and maximize his talents as far as a defensive replacement in CF; but minimize his liabilities with the bat.

It doesn’t appear that the manager is doing the player, Patterson, any favors having him hit leadoff because it doesn’t look like the manager is placing the player in the best position for him to have some success.

Patterson has had some production batting down in the order, it would follow that he might be more productive for the Reds down in the order.

I don’t think that he has ever been a player to hit very well for the 1 or 2 slots in the order in the last five to six seasons.

2008 Batting #1 82 AB .195 .256 .415 .671

2007 Batting #2 197 AB .294 .316 .421 .737

2006 Batting #6 141 AB .319 .356 .468 .824
2006 Batting #7 225 AB .280 .324 .484 .808

2005 Batting #7 74 AB .257 .295 .473 .768
2005 Batting #1 128 AB .211 .263 .359 .622

2004 Batting #7 116 AB .319 .389 .509 .898
2004 Batting #1 245 AB .261 .317 .486 .803
2004 Batting #2 196 AB .260 .310 .403 .713

2003 Batting #3 152 AB .276 .315 .467 .782
2003 Batting #6 117 AB .299 .331 .487 .818
2003 Batting #7 19 AB .316 .316 .789 1.105

2002 Batting #1 235 AB .277 .311 .409 .720
2002 Batting #2 176 AB .239 .287 .335 .622

GAC
05-08-2008, 09:21 PM
How is Keppinger fundamentally different from Freel in this regard?


He's younger, shown that he can hit, and doesn't have an alter-ego that makes him go left when he should go right. ;)

GAC
05-08-2008, 09:23 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have someone who can field and hit. But if my options are Patterson, Freel and Hopper, I'll begrudgingly take Patterson right now.

I'd have no problem with Patterson, if they aren't going to call Bruce up, and they minimize this out machine by batting him in the bottom of the order.

Falls City Beer
05-08-2008, 09:23 PM
Because Freel isn't a good hitter...

Yet their OPS are nearly identical, despite Freel being on the downside of his career and Keppinger being at the height of his.

*BaseClogger*
05-08-2008, 09:25 PM
Yet their OPS are nearly identical.

Small Sample Alert! :rockband:

BuckeyeRedleg
05-08-2008, 09:31 PM
Differences between Kepp and Freel in a nutshell:

-Freel is 4 years older

-Freel is paid 10 times as much in '09

-Both utility players, but Freel can play CF and Kepp can play SS

-Same OBP, but Kepp has higher SLG by 50 points (hence the higher career OPS by 50 points)

-Freel can make more happen on the basepaths, both good and bad (Freel with 140 SB's in 533 G, Kepp with 6 SB's in 156 G)

-Freel has an imaginary friend

Will M
05-08-2008, 09:32 PM
Yet their OPS are nearly identical, despite Freel being on the downside of his career and Keppinger being at the height of his.

1. I think Kep was getting a bit tired. Good move by Dusty giving him Wednesday off. His bat will snap back.

2. Kep is a better defender. Freel can 'play' multiple positions about as well as Dunn can.

3. Freel is the dumbest player I have ever watched. Ever. Ever. Ever.

*BaseClogger*
05-08-2008, 09:36 PM
Differences between Kepp and Freel in a nutshell:

-Freel is 4 years older

-Freel is paid 10 times as much in '09

-Both utility players, but Freel can play CF and Kepp can play SS

-Same OBP, but Kepp has higher SLG by 50 points (hence the higher career OPS by 50 points)

-Freel can make more happen on the basepaths, both good and bad (Freel with 140 SB's in 533 G, Kepp with 6 SB's in 156 G)

-Freel has an imaginary friend

Yup. However, I would say Kepp in his prime while Freel is leaving his, and Kepp can play better defense. And in a starting role, I would much prefer Kepp's style on the basepaths. Freel's only value there is as a pinch-runner...

BuckeyeRedleg
05-08-2008, 09:42 PM
Yup. However, I would say Kepp in his prime while Freel is leaving his, and Kepp can play better defense. And in a starting role, I would much prefer Kepp's style on the basepaths. Freel's only value there is as a pinch-runner...

I would love it if they could trade Freel before 2009.

*BaseClogger*
05-08-2008, 09:55 PM
I would love it if they could trade Freel before 2009.

Didn't you hear, they are gonna trade him for Scott Proctor! ;)

Falls City Beer
05-08-2008, 09:57 PM
Small Sample Alert! :rockband:

Freel has had three very valuable MLB seasons; Keppinger can't claim the same.

Freel's on a decline, but to say that Freel's "not a good hitter" just kind of misses the point.

I do think it's interesting that Keppinger's now being saddled with terms like "tired" and "ineffective" because of too many starts in a row--the very same thing happened to Freel.

I happen to think both players have their uses, however limited those uses may be.

Will M
05-08-2008, 10:03 PM
I do think it's interesting that Keppinger's now being saddled with terms like "tired" and "ineffective" because of too many starts in a row--the very same thing happened to Freel.

I happen to think both players have their uses, however limited those uses may be.

I agree with you on this. Neither should be playing every day. Getting Gonzo back will help. Kep, EE & Phillips can all get some days off.

*BaseClogger*
05-08-2008, 11:05 PM
Freel has had three very valuable MLB seasons; Keppinger can't claim the same.

Freel's on a decline, but to say that Freel's "not a good hitter" just kind of misses the point.

I do think it's interesting that Keppinger's now being saddled with terms like "tired" and "ineffective" because of too many starts in a row--the very same thing happened to Freel.

I happen to think both players have their uses, however limited those uses may be.

Yup. Keppinger is basically Freel circa 2005, except I think he can handle a position everyday defensively. Very valuable, just don't give him a big contract...

Spring~Fields
05-09-2008, 01:30 AM
I'd have no problem with Patterson,

You have a higher pain tolerance than the rest of us. :all_cohol

AmarilloRed
05-09-2008, 01:55 AM
Patterson has a 1 year deal for 3 million. I see no reason he could not be a backup outfielder for 2008, then let him go if he continues to struggle.

LoganBuck
05-09-2008, 08:33 AM
Patterson has a 1 year deal for 3 million. I see no reason he could not be a backup outfielder for 2008, then let him go if he continues to struggle.

The reasons he must go:

1. His bat has been beyond putrid for the last month.
2. History suggests only a marginal improvement
3. He is not "unlucky"
4. Dusty Baker has a fetish for playing him and letting him lead off, or double switching him into the game in the sixth inning, where we are forced to watch him bat in a potential high leverage late inning situation.
5. The best reasons to keep him are the same as those for having Juan Castro on your roster.

The reason for him to stay:
1. Some other in house options can not run as far. Perhaps allowing one more hit per week.

GAC
05-09-2008, 08:18 PM
You have a higher pain tolerance than the rest of us. :all_cohol

Hey! Don't pull a Chip R on me now. ;)

If you're gonna quote me, then quote me entirely (see emphasis) :lol:


I'd have no problem with Patterson, if they aren't going to call Bruce up, and they minimize this out machine by batting him in the bottom of the order.

Spring~Fields
05-09-2008, 10:09 PM
Hey! Don't pull a Chip R on me now. ;)

If you're gonna quote me, then quote me entirely (see emphasis) :lol:

I was bored and wanted to see if you were paying attention. :evil:

KronoRed
05-10-2008, 12:40 AM
But like others have said, when he plays, he's leading off. Dusty can't help himself.

Time to take the keys away, Dusty has had enough.

I agree with this now, Patterson 3rd? come on Dusty, stop the love affair for Patterson.

LoganBuck
06-12-2008, 06:06 PM
One month later and this thread still rings true.

Corey Patterson starts, Jay Bruce sits.

Brilliant.......

Reds Fanatic
06-12-2008, 06:17 PM
One month later and this thread still rings true.

Corey Patterson starts, Jay Bruce sits.

Brilliant.......

And Patterson is back in his usual leadoff position. :explode:

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 06:20 PM
One month later and this thread still rings true.

Corey Patterson starts, Jay Bruce sits.

Brilliant.......

He actually has some career production numbers batting down in the lineup.

Mr. P might actually be a valuable member to the team batting where his history shows he has some success.

I thought that Bruce was moving to right field on days like this?

Watch him go five for five tonight after picking on him ........:D

Matt700wlw
06-12-2008, 06:20 PM
The only solution is to cut him. Then Dusty can't use him.

I understand that he's going to play a little bit to give a guy a day off...but the WHOLE TEAM is off on Monday. Today doesn't have to be that day...especially for a 21 year old.

reds44
06-12-2008, 06:21 PM
Show me Chris Dickerson, Alex!

reds44
06-12-2008, 06:23 PM
Here's Dusty's explanation.



Dusty Baker on Jay Bruce sitting: "I think it's about time. I see him going after some pitches he wasn't going after earlier. The minor leagues, they don't usually play this long, this often. He's been playing everyday since hes' been here. I figured: OK, today's the day. We've got Boston, New York, Toronto, Cleveland. Plus, Corey's had good success against (Piniero). Hopefully, it will help both of them."

Bruce is also 3-for-17 with three singles. Patterson is 5-for-9 with a home run and two RBI against Piniero.

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 06:23 PM
The only solution is to cut him. Then Dusty can't use him

The solution is for the boss, Mr. Jocketty to quietly take Mr. Baker aside and tell him plainly to knock off the CF/SS batting 1,2, and especially with players who don't have the numbers to qualify for batting 1,2 .

BRM
06-12-2008, 06:28 PM
Bruce is also 3-for-17 with three singles. Patterson is 5-for-9 with a home run and two RBI against Piniero.


Small sample sizes dictating the lineup. Sweetness.

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 06:33 PM
Here's Dusty's explanation.

More embellishment from Baker.


Dusty Baker on Jay Bruce sitting: "I think it's about time. I see him going after some pitches he wasn't going after earlier. The minor leagues, they don't usually play this long, this often. He's been playing everyday since hes' been here.

Bruce still has been one of the players to get a hit, like last nights three hits, Bruce had one. Maybe with his reasoning he should be consistent and give the other six guys the night off that did not get a hit last night.

They have been pitching around him like they do Dunn, and tossing him changeups and other, yes he has missed some of those.

Bruces hits have reduced each time that Griffey was not batting behind him, check it out. Bruce did not perform well leading off in spring training, and that gave Mr. Patterson a foot in the door. I am not saying that this will give Patterson a foot in the door now. Bruce has not been performing as well now leading off with a Janish batting behind him.

If going after pitches that they shouldn't was a qualifier, Dunn, Phillips, Griffey, and Encarncion would be sitting every other night, and especially Ross.

fearofpopvol1
06-12-2008, 06:41 PM
In all fairness, Jay hasn't had a day off and he has swung out more bad pitches recently.

The bigger problem is that Patterson will be batting leadoff

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 06:43 PM
Small sample sizes dictating the lineup. Sweetness.


Bruce is also 3-for-17 with three singles. Patterson is 5-for-9 with a home run and two RBI against Piniero.


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=8171

Looking at the game logs at ESPN, Jay Bruce has only played against St. Louis one game if they are correct then, he could not have had 3-17 against Pineiro, unless he came to bat against him 17 times in one game in which Pineiro did not pitch.

Jay Bruce vs. team St. Louis

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bvsp?playerId=28954&teamId=24

I see the last two games against St. Louis but no Pineiro.

reds44
06-12-2008, 06:45 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/gamelog?statsId=8171

Looking at the game logs at ESPN, Jay Bruce has only played against St. Louis one game if they are correct then, he could not have had 3-17 against Pineiro, unless he came to bat against him 17 times in one game in which Pineiro did not pitch.

Jay Bruce vs. team St. Louis

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/bvsp?playerId=28954&teamId=24
I think that was meant to be Bruce is 3 for his last 17, not against Pineiro.

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 06:47 PM
In all fairness, Jay hasn't had a day off and he has swung out more bad pitches recently.

The bigger problem is that Patterson will be batting leadoff

The whole team swings at bad pitches, :D especially with Bakers policy to swing early and to swing often, seems like Griffey with his sore knee should be getting the night off..

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 06:48 PM
I think that was meant to be Bruce is 3 for his last 17, not against Pineiro.

That could be a three game hitting streak with 3 walks per game sprinkled in ;)

What's Patterson in his last 50? :thumbup:

IslandRed
06-12-2008, 06:54 PM
Old rule of thumb:

1. The Ripkens of the world notwithstanding, starters need the occasional day off.

2. Today is never the right day.

M2
06-12-2008, 06:55 PM
He needs to stop being a complete out machine, but I'd keep him. Still, got to post this image in a thread with the word "jettison" in the title.

http://www.bulletin.soton.ac.uk/ejectorseatgrey.jpg

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 06:56 PM
Old rule of thumb:

1. The Ripkens of the world notwithstanding, starters need the occasional day off.
2. Today is never the right day.

I believe that, I have seen several of the Reds players as you have, have a good day or days at the plate after a day off.

RedsManRick
06-12-2008, 07:04 PM
I've got no problem sitting a guy because he isn't accustomed to the major league schedule. But that small sample size crap drives me up a wall. It's completely, 100%, utterly and sincerely meaningless. All beat writers should be required to take an entry level statistics course at a local college before getting to put any thing in print.

At best, it's mildly interesting to know how a guy hits against a team, at worst it's incredibly misleading. But I guess when you get paid for content, you squeeze water from every last stone.

WVRedsFan
06-12-2008, 07:22 PM
That could be a three game hitting streak with 3 walks per game sprinkled in ;)

What's Patterson in his last 50? :thumbup:

Patterson has 19 at-bats in the last 10 games. He has:

1 run
1 hit
0 doubles
0 triples
1 HR
1 RBI
.105 BA

Simply insane starting him and more insane batting him leadoff.

My blood pressure is already out of sight, so I guess I'd better skip this one.

Clueless, I say. Totally Clueless.

red-in-la
06-12-2008, 08:02 PM
He needs to stop being a complete out machine, but I'd keep him. Still, got to post this image in a thread with the word "jettison" in the title.

http://www.bulletin.soton.ac.uk/ejectorseatgrey.jpg

That would be the ACES II Ejection seat standard in all US fighter planes.....actually manufactured in England.....I think the compnay is (or was) called Baker-Perkins.

LoganBuck
06-12-2008, 10:34 PM
Unless I am mistaken Corey Patterson is 0-4 and has seen 7 pitches.

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 11:17 PM
Unless I am mistaken Corey Patterson is 0-4 and has seen 7 pitches.

But, but he has SPEED, he did score a run tonight. ;) on top of that O Fer.

Tornon
06-12-2008, 11:26 PM
Unless I am mistaken Corey Patterson is 0-4 and has seen 7 pitches.

It was even more impressive that you thought.. I only counted 6 pitches

Caveat Emperor
06-12-2008, 11:30 PM
I'm OK with Patterson being on the team, but Jocketty needs to make sure he and the Duster are on the same page about the frequency of his use.

And the conversation should include him never seeing another LHP this season.

11larkin11
06-13-2008, 01:54 AM
It was even more impressive that you thought.. I only counted 6 pitches

I believe in Bruce's only AB, he saw just as many pitches, plus had a hit! A double at that!

Roy Tucker
06-13-2008, 02:03 PM
Patterson has entered "the Pantheon of CF's who got too many AB's" along with Cesar Cedeno, Curtis Goodwin, and Eddie Milner.

Always Red
06-13-2008, 02:25 PM
Patterson has entered "the Pantheon of CF's who got too many AB's" along with Cesar Cedeno, Curtis Goodwin, and Eddie Milner.

Cesar Cedeno was an excellent player for 10 years for the Astros, making the All-Star team 4 times. By the time he was with the Reds near the end of his career, not so much.

Chip R
06-13-2008, 02:35 PM
I'd like to see if Patterson can get his average below .100.

Roy Tucker
06-13-2008, 02:52 PM
Cesar Cedeno was an excellent player for 10 years for the Astros, making the All-Star team 4 times. By the time he was with the Reds near the end of his career, not so much.

Yep. Cedeno's '82-'85 tenure with the Reds was brutal. He was supposed to be the savior of the franchise and flopped pretty miserably. I was a season ticket holder through that era. Lucky me.

Always Red
06-13-2008, 02:55 PM
Yep. Cedeno's '82-'85 tenure with the Reds was brutal. He was supposed to be the savior of the franchise and flopped pretty miserably. I was a season ticket holder through that era. Lucky me.

Ouch. 1982 was the ugliest of years.

RedsManRick
06-13-2008, 03:09 PM
Ouch. 1982 was the ugliest of years.

Cyclone and I, among others I'm sure, would prefer you limit that statement to Reds baseball...

Always Red
06-13-2008, 03:15 PM
Cyclone and I, among others I'm sure, would prefer you limit that statement to Reds baseball...

Ouch. 1982 was the ugliest of years, for Reds baseball fans. :D

nate
06-13-2008, 03:17 PM
I'd like to see if Patterson can get his average below .100.

Average?

Heck, I say OPS!

fearofpopvol1
09-14-2008, 08:32 PM
I just wanted to say that Corey Patterson's OBP (.237) is the worst OBP for a full-time MLB player since 1975.

Join me for a round of applause. Congratulations, Corey Patterson!!

HokieRed
09-14-2008, 08:35 PM
He just hit the go-ahead homer tonight against the D'backs. Probably means we'll have him for three more years.

Tony Cloninger
09-14-2008, 09:02 PM
Even Cesar Cedeno during that 82-85 period was not as bad of hitter that CP is this year.

Not even close......watching this guy do anything good makes me scared that baker will ask for him again and WJ will oblige.

Kc61
09-14-2008, 09:21 PM
Patterson is one heck of a defensive centerfielder.

WVRedsFan
09-14-2008, 09:36 PM
Patterson is one heck of a defensive centerfielder.That's not in dispute.

The problem comes when he starts Patterson ahead of other options that are not that far behind CP defensively--and pinch hits him.

Falls City Beer
09-14-2008, 10:39 PM
Corey Patterson won't be a Red next year. Line up a different whipping boy. This one's gone.

fearofpopvol1
09-14-2008, 10:56 PM
Corey Patterson won't be a Red next year. Line up a different whipping boy. This one's gone.

Are you saying (in this case) you don't think the whipping is deserved?

Topcat
09-15-2008, 04:26 AM
FCB in this case the whipping is deserved without question. He is of no use to the Red's and has been a detriment to this team in a major way.

Falls City Beer
09-15-2008, 02:19 PM
Are you saying (in this case) you don't think the whipping is deserved?

I guess it's deserved--certainly offensively. But I think his defense is completely underheralded in its benefits for this young pitching staff. But that's just my opinion. Plus, it just gets old hearing about how Corey Patterson ruined the 2008 Reds. Give me a break.

Roy Tucker
09-15-2008, 02:30 PM
Corey stunk at the plate all year and certainly didn't help the Reds win much.

But he didn't pencil himself into the lineup for all those games either.

I understand the Reds are playing out the string now and are undermanned in the OF, but all those ABs he got while Dunn and Griffey were still around are unforgivable IMO.

BRM
09-15-2008, 02:32 PM
I guess it's deserved--certainly offensively. But I think his defense is completely underheralded in its benefits for this young pitching staff. But that's just my opinion. Plus, it just gets old hearing about how Corey Patterson ruined the 2008 Reds. Give me a break.

I agree with you on the benefit of his defense. It's been awhile since we've seen real quality defense being played in CF.

fearofpopvol1
09-15-2008, 02:32 PM
I guess it's deserved--certainly offensively. But I think his defense is completely underheralded in its benefits for this young pitching staff. But that's just my opinion. Plus, it just gets old hearing about how Corey Patterson ruined the 2008 Reds. Give me a break.

I don't think he ruined the 2008 season for the Reds, I just think his bat reaked of a skunk.

nate
09-15-2008, 02:39 PM
I guess it's deserved--certainly offensively. But I think his defense is completely underheralded in its benefits for this young pitching staff. But that's just my opinion. Plus, it just gets old hearing about how Corey Patterson ruined the 2008 Reds. Give me a break.

I think his bat is as bad as his glove is good.

The problem I have with him is how he's used.

BRM
09-15-2008, 02:40 PM
I think his bat is as bad as his glove is good.

The problem I have with him is how he's used.

So you don't really have an issue with Patterson. It's with Dusty.

indy_dave00
09-15-2008, 02:43 PM
Please even at his worse as a Red Cesar Cedeno was far better than Corey Patterson at the plate . In his 3 3/4 years as a Reds Cedeno hit .289 , .232, .276 and .241. Also forgotten is the fact in that time Cedeno only started 140 games in center , he played left , right and first almost exclusively after his first season as a Red.

Cesar Cedeno was then sent to St. Louis where he hit .434 the last month of the 1985 season with 6 homers and 19 rbi's in helping the Cards make the playoffs and eventually go to the World Series.

membengal
09-15-2008, 02:45 PM
Corey Patterson won't be a Red next year. Line up a different whipping boy. This one's gone.

Here's MY dream FCB, a year with NO whipping boys. That can be achieved if the Reds will kindly stop employing crap and playing same. No more Juan Castros. No more Corey Pattersons. No more ___________ (fill in the appropriate blank).

Simply not seek out and employ the worst players in professional baseball to fill out the roster. That would be swell.

Falls City Beer
09-15-2008, 02:48 PM
Here's MY dream FCB, a year with NO whipping boys. That can be achieved if the Reds will kindly stop employing crap and playing same. No more Juan Castros. No more Corey Pattersons. No more ___________ (fill in the appropriate blank).

Simply not seek out and employ the worst players in professional baseball to fill out the roster. That would be swell.


NO whipping boys?

Impossible on this board; you know it and I know it.

Honestly, I think part of the problem is conflating guys like Castro (no benefit at all) and Patterson (heaps of benefit on defense but obvious deployment issues).

Still, even if Patterson had contributed what an average CF produces offensively, he does nothing but move the Reds up a game or two at best. This team was a fundamental trainwreck the minute it left the station. Realize that--and stop searching for scapegoats--then maybe the healing can begin.

klw
09-15-2008, 02:51 PM
So you don't really have an issue with Patterson. It's with Dusty.

He would have been less of a target if he had been hitting in the 7 or 8 slot instead of leading off.

nate
09-15-2008, 03:17 PM
So you don't really have an issue with Patterson. It's with Dusty.

He's useful as a pinch runner on 2nd base (no stealing), a great defensive replacement hitting in the spot vacated by the relief pitcher in an inning >7 and getting a start, batting >8th once a week.

On a good team.

;)

Big Klu
09-15-2008, 03:18 PM
I guess it's deserved--certainly offensively. But I think his defense is completely underheralded in its benefits for this young pitching staff. But that's just my opinion. Plus, it just gets old hearing about how Corey Patterson ruined the 2008 Reds. Give me a break.

I have to agree with FCB on this. I think too many fans are in Fantasy/Playstation mode, where offense is the only thing that really matters. If a player is substandard offensively (which Patterson obviously is), then he is totally worthless. People clamored for a flycatcher to put between the defensive liabilities known as Adam Dunn and George Kenneth Griffey, Jr., and that's exactly what Corey Patterson is. Now I will readily admit, Patterson should never have been in the leadoff spot in the batting order--he should be hitting seventh (which he has been lately) or eighth, and as the "season from hell" continued for him, he should have seen less playing time (which he did). But at this stage of the season, with several young and inexperienced pitchers taking the mound for the Reds, I see nothing wrong (and everything right) with putting a strong defensive OF on the field, and having that flycatcher out there (at least against righties).

To continually beat on him in the same way that RedsZone has done to Juan Castro, catcher du jour, and every manager in RZ's existence gets old. Not every player on the team can be an all-star, and some of them actually have major deficiencies in their games. But to act like their very existence is a personal affront to one's sensibilities is just over the top.

Big Klu
09-15-2008, 03:32 PM
Here's MY dream FCB, a year with NO whipping boys. That can be achieved if the Reds will kindly stop employing crap and playing same. No more Juan Castros. No more Corey Pattersons. No more ___________ (fill in the appropriate blank).

Simply not seek out and employ the worst players in professional baseball to fill out the roster. That would be swell.


NO whipping boys?

Impossible on this board; you know it and I know it.

Honestly, I think part of the problem is conflating guys like Castro (no benefit at all) and Patterson (heaps of benefit on defense but obvious deployment issues).

Still, even if Patterson had contributed what an average CF produces offensively, he does nothing but move the Reds up a game or two at best. This team was a fundamental trainwreck the minute it left the station. Realize that--and stop searching for scapegoats--then maybe the healing can begin.

RedsZone '75 would have butchered Darrel Chaney, Doug Flynn, Ed Armbrister, and Bill Plummer.

RedsZone '90 would have burned Todd Benzinger, Herm Winningham, and Luis Quiñones at the stake.

RedsManRick
09-15-2008, 03:43 PM
I have to agree with FCB on this. I think too many fans are in Fantasy/Playstation mode, where offense is the only thing that really matters. If a player is substandard offensively (which Patterson obviously is), then he is totally worthless.

I think that's a gross simplification. The reality of the situation is that when you hit the way Patterson has, no amount of defense, and no repositioning in the lineup can offset the net negative he represents in a comprehensive RS-RA system. Used extremely judiciously, in a manner that maximizes his defensive contributions and minimizes his offensive opportunities, he can still play a role and is not totally worthless. I think most Patterson haters would agree.


People clamored for a flycatcher to put between the defensive liabilities known as Adam Dunn and George Kenneth Griffey, Jr., and that's exactly what Corey Patterson is.

But solving one problem by creating another one of greater or equal size isn't a smart approach to that problem. Perhaps it's a case of be careful what you wish for, but I would hope management could appreciate the trade off.


Now I will readily admit, Patterson should never have been in the leadoff spot in the batting order--he should be hitting seventh (which he has been lately) or eighth, and as the "season from hell" continued for him, he should have seen less playing time (which he did). But at this stage of the season, with several young and inexperienced pitchers taking the mound for the Reds, I see nothing wrong (and everything right) with putting a strong defensive OF on the field, and having that flycatcher out there (at least against righties).

I had no problem with Patterson in CF on opening day. Dickerson's bat was still a big question mark and there was a reasonable expectation that Patterson could put something like a .750 OPS, making him a real asset to the team. Patterson deserved a few hundred at bats. The idea of bringing him in was not a bad one, particularly with Dunn and Griffey flanking him at the time.

The problem now is that for the last two months, we know Patterson can't hit, we now have a solid defender in RF, and we have a young guy who actually is hitting and who is also a flycatcher in in CF in Chris Dickerson.



To continually beat on him in the same way that RedsZone has done to Juan Castro, catcher du jour, and every manager in RZ's existence gets old. Not every player on the team can be an all-star, and some of them actually have major deficiencies in their games. But to act like their very existence is a personal affront to one's sensibilities is just over the top.

Of course every player can't be an all-star. However, every player on the roster CAN and should be above replacement level. And further, even if a guy is an asset in the abstract, if your manager doesn't utilize him properly, who cares about his theoretical value? There are a ton of guys in AAA and the bottom of major league rosters who can do something well, whose presence on a major league roster can be justified by focusing only on their strengths. However, if they are used in such a way that their weaknesses overshadow the positives they bring to the table, creating negative value compared to other alternatives, then we have a problem.

Given the way he's been utilized (read, the number of PA he's been give), Corey Patterson isn't above replacement -- and that's been clear for months. As good as his defense is, it simply doesn't make up for his putrid offense when he's getting 4 PA a game. This is particularly true given that we now have other options over which he is much less an improvement defensively than could be said 5 months ago. If they're available, Dickerson in CF and Hairston in LF is a much more productive option.

I think most people on this board believe Patterson deserves a place on the roster generically speaking -- though the distinction hardly matters at this point. But he doesn't belong in any role other as than spot starter in case of injury and as a late inning defensive replacement in close games where the Reds lead. He certainly does not merit an everyday starting gig and NEVER belongs at the top of the lineup. While Dusty has been using CPatt judiciously more lately, he's still been used more than is necessary, occasionally at the expense of giving opportunities to young players who might have a future with the Reds.

Jettison Patterson? I don't think so. But if you can't or won't get rid of the guy who is misusing him, you have to do something to address the situation.

westofyou
09-15-2008, 03:48 PM
RedsZone '75 would have butchered Darrel Chaney, Doug Flynn, Ed Armbrister, and Bill Plummer.

RedsZone '90 would have burned Todd Benzinger, Herm Winningham, and Luis Quiñones at the stake.

Redszoners in 1993 September would have eaten their own face in frustration.

Big Klu
09-15-2008, 03:58 PM
Redszoners in 1993 September would have eaten their own face in frustration.

Ah, 1993. Juan Samuel, Tim Costo, Willie Greene, Keith Kessinger, Brian Koelling, Greg Tubbs, Jack Daugherty, Tommy Gregg, and the player who obviously would have been the focal point of RedsZone's wrath--Cesar Hernandez. And that's just some of the position players!

Roy Tucker
09-15-2008, 04:22 PM
Ah, 1993. Juan Samuel, Tim Costo, Willie Greene, Keith Kessinger, Brian Koelling, Greg Tubbs, Jack Daugherty, Tommy Gregg, and the player who obviously would have been the focal point of RedsZone's wrath--Cesar Hernandez. And that's just some of the position players!

Bobby Ayala.

Big Klu
09-15-2008, 04:24 PM
Bobby Ayala.

John Roper, Larry Luebbers, Tim Pugh, Jerry Spradlin, Scott Service, Ross Powell, Mike Anderson, Kevin Wickander, Milton Hill, Johnny Ruffin, Chris Bushing, Steve Foster.

Falls City Beer
09-15-2008, 06:15 PM
Ah, 1993. Juan Samuel, Tim Costo, Willie Greene, Keith Kessinger, Brian Koelling, Greg Tubbs, Jack Daugherty, Tommy Gregg, and the player who obviously would have been the focal point of RedsZone's wrath--Cesar Hernandez. And that's just some of the position players!

Truth: one of my cats is named Willie; named after erstwhile K-monster Willie Greene.

Patrick Bateman
09-15-2008, 06:22 PM
My dog is name "Casey" for obvious reasons.

BRM
09-15-2008, 06:24 PM
Truth: one of my cats is named Willie; named after erstwhile K-monster Willie Greene.

Hopefully he doesn't swing and miss when going to the litterbox. That could get messy.

GAC
09-15-2008, 09:54 PM
RedsZone '75 would have butchered Darrel Chaney, Doug Flynn, Ed Armbrister, and Bill Plummer.

RedsZone '90 would have burned Todd Benzinger, Herm Winningham, and Luis Quiñones at the stake.

As well as Dave Concepcion's career sub-.700 OPS, or the fact that Rose's OB% was BA-drive (averaged 70 BBs/season). :p:

SMcGavin
09-15-2008, 10:25 PM
As well as Dave Concepcion's career sub-.700 OPS, or the fact that Rose's OB% was BA-drive (averaged 70 BBs/season). :p:

Eh, for a SS in those days Concepcion was a significantly above average hitter (just as an example the average 1975 NL SS had a .614 OPS). Rose had a OPS+ of 115 or higher every single season from age 24 to age 38. I don't think too many people would have had a problem with either...

Matt700wlw
09-16-2008, 01:11 AM
My dog is name "Casey" for obvious reasons.

Stengal?

Patrick Bateman
09-16-2008, 01:21 AM
You sunk my battleship.

Redsfaithful
09-16-2008, 04:43 AM
Redszoners in 1993 September would have eaten their own face in frustration.

And to think, they were in the playoffs just two years later. Maybe I should be more optimistic.

GAC
09-16-2008, 08:50 AM
Eh, for a SS in those days Concepcion was a significantly above average hitter (just as an example the average 1975 NL SS had a .614 OPS). Rose had a OPS+ of 115 or higher every single season from age 24 to age 38. I don't think too many people would have had a problem with either...

Then yes; but now? I don't know. Rose was an exceptional player whose performance came more from inner fortitude (drive) then natural ability (i.e. a Eric Davis). And not knowing what we know about Rose, and if he played today, the same argument would be put forth that because he didn't draw enough walks, and his OB% was BA-driven, his performance would falter as he aged, reached his lower 30's.

But I thoroughly agree that the game then was quite different from the game today.