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WVRedsFan
05-08-2008, 01:23 AM
The last two (or maybe three) nights Doc has been harping over and over about getting rid of Junior. He's got the fans (at least those that call in) so fired up about the Kid that it's unbelievable. The USA Today newspaper article, which was a good hack job is his main point of reference. This is typical of the Cincinnati media it seems. And in his best Andy Furman style, beat it to death ujntil everyone is frothing at the mouth to run Junior out of town.

It all started last week when he brought up that there was not much hoopla surrounding Junior's 600th HR. He had a guy on his show from Seattle who said there was no place for Junior there, but did that stop the relentless proclamation of "Junior want to finish his career in Seattle"? Nope. Just over and over.

Oh yeah. He wants to trade Dunn, too. That will solve all the Reds' problems. Not

reds44
05-08-2008, 01:27 AM
I almost posted this article earlier tonight, and this thread is a perfect chance to do so.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080507/SPT04/305070089/

That's a terrible article. It made me sick reading it. Most Reds fan want Griffey dealt after he hits 600, but my God what has Griffey done to deserve this? He got hurt a lot, that's not really his fault. He's always been a class act.

I want to see Griffey traded, but I will miss him when he leaves. We don't need all this crap.

fearofpopvol1
05-08-2008, 01:33 AM
I really doubt that Jocketty is paying much attention to this, so I think it's pretty irrelevant.

WVRedsFan
05-08-2008, 01:37 AM
I almost posted this article earlier tonight, and this thread is a perfect chance to do so.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080507/SPT04/305070089/

That's a terrible article. It made me sick reading it. Most Reds fan want Griffey dealt after he hits 600, but my God what has Griffey done to deserve this? He got hurt a lot, that's not really his fault. He's always been a class act.

I want to see Griffey traded, but I will miss him when he leaves. We don't need all this crap.

True about the article. Just sickening. For all the gripes about Marty, this just goes over the top more than Marty ever has, but that's another thread.

Daugherty has harped on this all week--the part about the disgruntled fan--and it's getting tiresome. Why is it that every sports anchor who ever comes on in the pre-post game segments want to create a story instead of just talking about the game? Ratings? I suppose.

Take all those HR's and runs, and RBI's out of this lineup (and you're a fool if you think Jay Bruce can duplicate even what these two under normal circumstances can produce) in an already emasculated offensive team, and you get a lot of shutouts. Until the offense of this club is addressed, they better have Dunn and Junior in the lineup. More pitching is not the answer. We've tried that to no avail.

KronoRed
05-08-2008, 02:06 AM
Bashing JR has always been an easy way to get the loons to call in on extra innings, all the way back to when JR first arrived he's been the "favorite" for them.

coachw513
05-08-2008, 08:00 AM
Story in the Enquirer...bet is sounds familiar to many here:


The nine-year ache
A story of one fan's descent into indifference
BY PAUL DAUGHERTY | PDAUGHERTY@ENQUIRER.COM

Brad Boschert showed up at Lunken Airport nine years ago, to watch Ken Griffey Jr. exit Carl Lindner’s private jet. Griffey was bound for a press conference at Cinergy Field that would send chills down every spine in the Tristate. Boschert couldn’t believe his good fortune.

There is love and there is mad man-crush. Boschert loved the Reds. For Game 2 of the ’90 World Series, he sat with his father in seats near the left field foul pole. He could have almost touched the ball Joe Oliver hit that won that game.

Boschert was present when the Reds lost the playoff game to the Mets in ’99. When he played golf on early summer evenings, the Walkman was in his ear, playing Marty and Joe. Boschert graduated from Monroe High in 1988, a year after Griffey graduated from Moeller. He was disappointed the Seattle Mariners drafted Griffey before the Reds could. Enter the man-crush phase of the equation.

“I dreamed for 11 years of him being a Red," Boschert recalled. “When Lindner’s plane touched down at Lunken, I was giddy."

That was a long time ago. Griffey’s time in Cincinnati is about done. His “era" has been marked by disappointment, futility and cynicism. And worse, a growing apathy among fans. Little of this had anything to do with Griffey. It just started happening when he arrived.

Now, Brad Boschert still follows the Reds, when he can, with an eye narrowed by his own weary cynicism and disappointment. He’d like to believe in them again. But they never give him a reason. “They’ve sucked the life out of me," Boschert said today.

OK, so who’s Brad Boschert? Nobody. Everybody. You. Me. A 38-year-old guy with a wife, three kids and a mortgage. The passionate fan the Reds have lost, but who aches to come back. The faint heartbeat the Reds need to revive, to be anything consistently better than the Pittsburgh Pirates.

It’s telling that Reds fans haven’t gotten worked up about Griffey’s impending membership in The 600 Club. They’ve been so beaten down by losing and ineptitude, not even a hometown player crossing a precious threshold can grab them.

Equally revealing, when the Enquirer asked readers in a poll what the team should do with Griffey, 75 percent of more than 4,000 respondents said Griffey should be traded after he hits No. 600.

“Any sports owner’s worst enemy is indifference," said Boschert, who hasn’t been to a game this year and struggles with whether to take his kids to “watch them lose 11-2 and see Adam Dunn hit two solo homers.

“My best friend loved them the way I did," Boschert said. “Now, he couldn’t tell you what their record is."

Boschert wants Griffey traded, he wants Dunn traded. He wants “the whole thing to be blown up. Nothing personal. It breaks my heart the way it worked out here for Junior. But I’ve been looking forward to him leaving, because things won’t change until he’s gone."

Boschert doesn’t blame Griffey for the nine-year ache. “It’s nuts," Boschert said. “The guy has been here (almost) a decade, but it feels like he was never here at all. The highlight-reel superstar, the greatest player of his generation, where did he go? It’s like he left Seattle and went underground."

Truth is, Griffey’s career here has mirrored the decline of the team. Hope, injury, mediocrity, indifference. The emotions Boschert feels, his hero has felt, too.

“I still care," Boschert said. He lives in Columbus now. The Walkman is gone. He’ll listen to the games on the radio, if he’s working in the yard and nothing else occupies his time. It’s the difference between high noon and sunset. Sound familiar?

“They’ll have my full patience and understanding if they make big changes. But right now, the Reds aren’t fooling anyone who knows baseball," Boschert said. "I got all jacked up the first few series this year, but they’re looking again like a team that’s going to win 75 games."

Until that changes, Boschert will be content with his memories, and the lingering, almost naïve notion that the Reds again will be worth his heart’s time. Everyfan is out there, wary and hopeful at the same time.

RFS62
05-08-2008, 08:10 AM
Daugherty's coming on XM this morning in the last hour of the show.

Ltlabner
05-08-2008, 08:15 AM
I caught a little bit of Doc's radio show as I was driving from the hotel to dinner. I don't normally listen to him, but the radio happened to be on WLW. He was going on about Jr. again last night.

He had a local Seatle radio guy on and was baiting him about them taking Jr. back. Basically the guy said everyone up there realizes Jr's day has passed, you can't go home, there's nowhere for him to play, they have some tallented youngsters so why block them, etc etc. The guy was polite but he was making it pretty clear that Jr to Seattle was a pipe dream.

No matter what the guy said Doc was intent on boring ahead with Jr to Seattle. It was pretty laughable listening as the Seatle guy was making it plainly clear that Jr to Seattle was a non-starter and Doc kept doggidly ramming home his adgenda.

Jr's days's in Cincy are numbered but what's with Doc's glee to unload the guy? Oh wait....Doc's a hack. I almost forgot.

jojo
05-08-2008, 08:19 AM
Bashing JR has always been an easy way to get the loons to call in on extra innings, all the way back to when JR first arrived he's been the "favorite" for them.

To be fair, PD is competing with internet porn for his readership/listeners.....

TeamCasey
05-08-2008, 08:36 AM
I think the article is pretty realistic and doesn't knock Griffey. Many fans including myself have become more apathetic the last few years. You can see it, feel it, smell it on Redszone too.

The Reds haven't been very fun to watch the last 3 years or so. I'm a fan but certainly not like I was when I jumped on this crazy train. ;)

Yesterday was exciting! You know ..... because chicks dig the long ball. :)

OldXOhio
05-08-2008, 09:05 AM
I think the article is pretty realistic and doesn't knock Griffey. Many fans including myself have become more apathetic the last few years. You can see it, feel it, smell it on Redszone too.

The Reds haven't been very fun to watch the last 3 years or so. I'm a fan but certainly not like I was when I jumped on this crazy train. ;)

Yesterday was exciting! You know ..... because chicks dig the long ball. :)

I really don't get this sentiment towards PD. Every time I hear him, he's very clear about the fact that the current state of the Reds and Junior's game are not KGJ's fault. Injuries and a FO unable to build a consistent winner around the guy are the sources for the problems faced today. If Doc is drumming up attention towards the subject, I for one am interested. Sadly, there's no place for Junior on this team going forward. The return to Seattle thing would be a nice ending to a storied career while assisting the Reds with furthering the youth movement.

Edskin
05-08-2008, 09:11 AM
That isn't a hack job at all-- maybe beating a dead horse, but the article hardly "slams" Griffey. It basically says that the Reds stink, the fans have lost interest, and that the Griffey era in Cincy has been a major disappointment. He doesn't "blame" Junior for anything.

The article is 100% accurate and I think it does a pretty good job of expressing the general fan sentiment. Is it the same stuff we hear over and over? Yeah. But honestly, there isn't much else to talk about.

Joseph
05-08-2008, 10:05 AM
Great points Ed. Exactly what I was going to make. We all know Griffs time has unfortunately passed. Its a matter of can we trade him this season and get something, or let him walk after the season?

Doc isn't the best, no question, but he's also not appealing to the intelligent and informed sports or Reds fans. He's appealing to the casual fan who doesn't know every detail of the ins and outs of the Reds. We hate on Doc because, well frankly most of us are more intelligent than he is.

Add in the fact the team is again going nowhere and you simple just can't talk about the events on the field night after night, no one would care. Therefore he is almost forced to discuss things like Griff, Dunn, Arroyo and other 'should be traded' types.

Dom Heffner
05-08-2008, 10:10 AM
I'll never understand sport fans' knack for running a team's best player out of town. I'm referring to Dunn over Griffey, but geesh- has here been a more consistent better Red than Dunn the past few years?

bucksfan2
05-08-2008, 10:22 AM
I listened a little bit to the show last night and had to turn it off. Doc mentioned that he and Jr. talked about a problem that Jr. had with a column that Doc wrote. This weeklong love afair that Doc has with trading Jr. seems to be driven from Jr being mad at him.

Doc has created a topic. Actually USA today created a topic that really wasn't there. Fox created a topic that really wasn't there with putting Jr and Dunn on the trading block. No one in their right mind is going to say that thy Kid we hoped to get was the same Jr we saw during his tenure in Cincy. My problem with the debate is that it isn't Jr's fault. When healthy he has been pretty productive and still is a threat in the lineup. The problem during Jr's tenure was Haynes, Joey Hamilton, Paul Wilson, etc. The problem was the rotation of the future in 2003 has since fizzled out by now. The problem was more with ownership than it was with Jr. But most people in Cincinnati just place the blame on Jr.

Joseph
05-08-2008, 10:33 AM
....most people in Cincinnati just place the blame on Jr.

Sure they do, he's the face of the franchise for the last decade-ish. Its the same principle as blaming the President for the gas prices [and don't think thats a political commentary and lets not turn the thread into one]. It happens, its human nature to blame the 'leader' even if he has little to do with the losing overall.

flyer85
05-08-2008, 11:08 AM
much ado about nothing.

Can I see Jr(and Dunn) being traded? Sure, but IMHO neither have much trade value(Dunn a a little more than Jr) and won't bring anything more than middling prospects.

Cooper
05-08-2008, 11:20 AM
The article does mention a truth: since 2000 all these seasons have run together for me. I used to be able to distinguish from 1 season to the next, but there's no variance -no real change ....it all feels like 75-87. If you asked me what years Jimmy Haynes pitched -i really couldn't tell ya cause they all feel the same.

The FO always had 1 foot in the "develop the young players" bucket and 1 foot in the "let's bring in some really old guys" bucket. Occasionally they would change feet to try to make ya feel like things were different....but in the end there's just 2 wet feet.

RedsManRick
05-08-2008, 11:23 AM
Frankly, I don't think the article is that inaccurate. Inappropriate, maybe -- but not inaccurate. The fanbase has settled in to a malaise. The losing has grown old and the plan for winning unarticulated. Fans are wary of false hope.

I feel almost the exact same way about Junior. In 9 years, I can't name 3 great Junior memories. He's had a terrific career, but even I want him to go in to the HoF with a Mariners cap. That's not his fault per se' -- he's worked his butt off and done his best. but he never had the impact anybody had hoped.

What makes me mad about the article is that it seems to place the blame on bad luck. The problem is and has been ownership and GM incompetence. Until those change, the Reds won't be a regular winner. Unfortunately, 98% of the fan base will direct their frustration at the guys on the field. They're out there and they're the ones winning and losing games. But they're being set up to fail.

flyer85
05-08-2008, 11:24 AM
The FO always had 1 foot in the "develop the young players" bucket and 1 foot in the "let's bring in some really old guys" bucket. it's been the "let's try and win now and also build for the future" method. Instead you end up doing neither. The problem the Reds have experienced is that have never gone through the rebuilding phase that was necessary, instead they hung on to assets(until they lost their value) they should have sold.

dabvu2498
05-08-2008, 11:26 AM
What makes me mad about the article is that it seems to place the blame on bad luck. The problem is and has been ownership and GM incompetence. Until those change, the Reds won't be a regular winner. Unfortunately, 98% of the fan base will direct their frustration at the guys on the field. They're out there and they're the ones winning and losing games. But they're being set up to fail.

Very true.

Doc even said on his show last night that Jr. was "lied to" by ownership/management when his trade and signing occurred. But that fact usually gets glossed over.

osuceltic
05-08-2008, 11:27 AM
much ado about nothing.

Can I see Jr(and Dunn) being traded? Sure, but IMHO neither have much trade value(Dunn a a little more than Jr) and won't bring anything more than middling prospects.

With Jr. in particular, that's not the point. What purpose is served by keeping him here? He's not going to be back next season. He's blocking the best prospect in the organization, if not all of baseball. His skills have deteriorated to the point that he's a marginal player at best, yet his reputation demands he be treated with kid gloves and placed in prominent spots in the lineup -- even when he may not warrant that kind of treatment. And meanwhile, fans are becoming more and more apathetic. Basically, almost everyone sees that it's finally time to turn the page. And the sooner, the better.

It's not entirely different with Dunn. It's becoming less and less likely that he'll be back. Jocketty has no history with Dunn. Dunn isn't a Jocketty-style player. His performance doesn't match his salary and almost certainly won't match the salary he gets with his next contract. So he's probably gone. Why wait? Why not leverage him for everything you can get at the deadline -- even if that's not much? It's that or take the draft picks -- and does that really sound like Jocketty?

It's not that there is this angry mob desperate to chase these guys out of town. Some of us are just looking at the circumstances and considering the best options for the Reds. And all things considered, I think clearing the high under-performing high-salaried players off the decks and making room for younger players makes a lot of sense for this team at this time.

And Junior isn't an innocent victim in this recent round of speculation. Doc didn't start this, and he nails it in his blog today. Check it out.

flyer85
05-08-2008, 11:30 AM
trying to stir the pot and rile up the fans about trading two guys that have no-trade protection at the moment is a waste of time. Come back in two months and there may be something going on ... but then again maybe not.

There is no doubt that Jr would like to go but the real question is does someone want him? Any team acquiring Jr would be on the hook for a $4M buyout ... although usually a player would use his no-trade protection to get the team to pick up the option($16M for Jr), which makes a trade even less likely

Yachtzee
05-08-2008, 11:36 AM
Doc's a pot stirrer, plain and simple. He likes to pick up on some report from the national media involving a Cincinnati team and turn it into a campaign. Did the same thing with Chad Johnson last football season. The Bengals were performing below expectations, Chris Mortensen speculates that the Bengals might want to trade Chad Johnson, falsely implying that he had an inside source. Doc picks up on it and turns it into a campaign to trade Chad. Chad gets his boo-boo feeling hurt because Doc helped him write his autobiography and starts his own campaign to get himself out of town.

What amazes me about the Dunn and Griffey situation is that a large subset of Reds fans tend to put the blame on these two for the Reds' failure to win ballgames. Shouldn't blame be on the ownership and front office for the failure to obtain supporting talent to help Dunn and Griffey out over the years? The problem isn't with Dunn or Griffey before him. The problem is with the management's decision to sign guys like Corey Patterson and Juan Castro (and Milton and Stanton) to overpriced contracts and continue to play them well beyond the expiration of their shelf life.

M2
05-08-2008, 11:39 AM
I've got no problem with the article and, if we're being honest, Jr. should have been gone five years ago after the 2003 season turned into a nightmare.

I feel sorry for the guy because he's spent the latter portion of his career on some wretched baseball teams. It's not his fault that the franchise fell apart after his first year in town, but he's been the wrong the guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. I respect him and think he's a good guy. He deserves better and the Reds need something different.

Benihana
05-08-2008, 11:45 AM
I've got no problem with the article and, if we're being honest, Jr. should have been gone five years ago after the 2003 season turned into a nightmare.

I feel sorry for the guy because he's spent the latter portion of his career on some wretched baseball teams. It's not his fault that the franchise fell apart after his first year in town, but he's been the wrong the guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. I respect him and think he's a good guy. He deserves better and the Reds need something different.

To be fair, didn't JimBo try to trade him in 2003 for Phil Nevin? Granted it was the wrong target, and I believe Nevin nixed the deal, but still...

Two years later, they got the city (Chicago) and the target (Chris Young) right but I believe Lindner nixed the deal. At least (the GMs) tried.

wally post
05-08-2008, 11:53 AM
I believe the local fans themselves have overall treated Jr. unfairly based on reports from games I've read here on RZ. I don't blame him for hoping for a better situation to finish up his career - and the amount of control it must take to hold back and not say something really nasty must be difficult. There should be a pretty good fit for him in several places.

M2
05-08-2008, 11:56 AM
To be fair, didn't JimBo try to trade him in 2003 for Phil Nevin? Granted it was the wrong target, and I believe Nevin nixed the deal, but at least they tried.

Two years later, they got the city (Chicago) and the target (Chris Young) right but I believe Lindner nixed the deal. Once again, at least they tried.

True, there were some abortive attempts. I'm just making the point that it was long ago time for Jr. to ply his trade somewhere else.

Far East
05-08-2008, 12:45 PM
...The Reds haven't been very fun to watch the last 3 years or so. I'm a fan but certainly not like I was when I jumped on this crazy train. ;)
That was my sentiment up until Hamilton joined the team last year. When in other posts I have said I would have much preferred that the Reds had kept Hamilton (and RHH Cantu, for that matter) and had traded both Griffey and Dunn for pitching, part of that was baseball logic, but part was the joy of watching Hamilton and part was my indifference/apathy at having to watch Griffey/Dunn.

I mean, even compared to Griffey and Dunn's best and during their best streaks when they are carrying the team, I still would prefer to watch Hamilton (at bat and patrolling CF) and Keppinger's contact hitting, and Hatteberg's working the count.

I say that even if the Reds were winning more games with Griffey/Dunn than they would be with Hamiton/Hatteberg/Keppinger/acquired pitchers. It's just more fun. I guess because I'm not a chick, I don't dig the long ball.

My emotions are somewhat similar (but not as strong) when I suffer through the over-anxious, free-swinging, non-situational hitting from Phillips and Encarnacion. They seem to unable to or reluctant to learn from their past weak grounders to the left side on outside corner pitches that more successful hitters hit up the middle or to right/right-center. The waiting for their ocassional HR just isn't fun for me.

On the other hand, we probably all love what Volquez has brought to the rotation, but if there had just been some other way to have gotten him (say for Kearns and Lopez ;))and had both Hamilton and Bruce to look forward to.

Cooper
05-08-2008, 12:47 PM
I forget that they said they would builda team around him- they never came close nor did they try.

Chip R
05-08-2008, 12:53 PM
Very true.

Doc even said on his show last night that Jr. was "lied to" by ownership/management when his trade and signing occurred. But that fact usually gets glossed over.


I'm not so sure that they did lie to him. Getting Jr. here was obviously based on the StL model of getting Mark McGwire. The Cards brought McGwire in, he started threatening the home run record and the country was captivated by his and Sosa's chase for the record. StL started drawing larger crowds than usual - and their usual was pretty darn good. In 1996 they drew 2.6M and they drew about the same in 97 when McGwire came over in mid-season. In 98 and 99 they drew around 3.2M. That's going to pay for McGwire and a lot of help.

So you can see visions of filled seats dancing in JimBo's head. He rightly felt that if StL could draw people like that with McGwire, Cincinnati could too with Jr. chasing Hank Aaron. Not to mention they were coming off a 96 win season. I'm sure JimBo promised Jr. they'd go out and add to what they had with the windfall in revenue they would get from Jr. and the subsequent improvement in the team. If the 99 Reds won 96 games without Jr., just think what they could do with him.

At first, it was all good. The Reds drew about 2.6M even though they played like pretenders most of the season. Then in Spring of 01, Jr. suffered that ill fated injury that kept him out the first few weeks of the season. The Reds weren't winning and people stopped coming. So, instead of drawing 3M people, they only drew 1.8M and didn't break the 2M barrier till 2003 when the new stadium opened and only drew 2.4M that year. The revenues weren't there to spend on free agents or trade for players with big salaries. Plus JimBo couldn't find starting pitching with a map and a compass.

I'd compare it to a guy promising his family he'd buy a new car when his promotion went through. But the promotion didn't go through and he didn't get the money to buy that car. So he can either keep his word and buy the car and have problems with every day living expenses or he can break his promise and keep the status quo.

jojo
05-08-2008, 12:56 PM
I'm not so sure that they did lie to him. Getting Jr. here was obviously based on the StL model of getting Mark McGwire. The Cards brought McGwire in, he started threatening the home run record and the country was captivated by his and Sosa's chase for the record. StL started drawing larger crowds than usual - and their usual was pretty darn good. In 1996 they drew 2.6M and they drew about the same in 97 when McGwire came over in mid-season. In 98 and 99 they drew around 3.2M. That's going to pay for McGwire and a lot of help.

So you can see visions of filled seats dancing in JimBo's head. He rightly felt that if StL could draw people like that with McGwire, Cincinnati could too with Jr. chasing Hank Aaron. Not to mention they were coming off a 96 win season. I'm sure JimBo promised Jr. they'd go out and add to what they had with the windfall in revenue they would get from Jr. and the subsequent improvement in the team. If the 99 Reds won 96 games without Jr., just think what they could do with him.

At first, it was all good. The Reds drew about 2.6M even though they played like pretenders most of the season. Then in Spring of 01, Jr. suffered that ill fated injury that kept him out the first few weeks of the season. The Reds weren't winning and people stopped coming. So, instead of drawing 3M people, they only drew 1.8M and didn't break the 2M barrier till 2003 when the new stadium opened and only drew 2.4M that year. The revenues weren't there to spend on free agents or trade for players with big salaries. Plus JimBo couldn't find starting pitching with a map and a compass.

I'd compare it to a guy promising his family he'd buy a new car when his promotion went through. But the promotion didn't go through and he didn't get the money to buy that car. So he can either keep his word and buy the car and have problems with every day living expenses or he can break his promise and keep the status quo.

It's a pretty damn tragic scenario for the second half of a career for an electric player and a franchise that together could've had a storybook relationship if things had worked out differently.....

Falls City Beer
05-08-2008, 01:01 PM
It's a pretty damn tragic scenario for the second half of a career for an electric player and a franchise that together could've had a storybook relationship if things had worked out differently.....

Good real life stories unfold they aren't fashioned. The franchise tried to sell a story and not a team; that wasn't going to work, and it never will.

osuceltic
05-08-2008, 02:10 PM
I know injuries aren't his fault, but let's not go overboard with the "it's not his fault" stuff. Due to the injuries, age and apathy, the Reds never saw the player they thought they were getting from Seattle. Even his first season, when he was healthy, he was good but not as good as anyone expected. Granted, he had set a high standard, but when you set that standard, people are going to be disappointed when you don't meet expectations.

My point is Junior wasn't just this superstar trapped with bad teammates. He wasn't holding up his end of the bargain either. Injuries or whatever -- that's just a reality. He pretty quickly became a part-time, good-but-not-great hitter, below-average center fielder and finally a below-average MLB outfielder. You pay those guys $100 million in a small/mid-market and you're going to have trouble winning.

flyer85
05-08-2008, 02:18 PM
I know injuries aren't his fault, but let's not go overboard with the "it's not his fault" stuff. Due to the injuries, age and apathy, the Reds never saw the player they thought they were getting from Seattle. Even his first season, when he was healthy, he was good but not as good as anyone expected. IIRC, Jr got off to a terrible start in 2000 ... although he did end up with good counting stats before getting hurt in September.

KronoRed
05-08-2008, 02:26 PM
IIRC, Jr got off to a terrible start in 2000 ... although he did end up with good counting stats before getting hurt in September.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=griffke02&year=2000

Horrible April, soso May and July, other months MVP like.

Big Klu
05-08-2008, 02:38 PM
IIRC, Jr got off to a terrible start in 2000 ... although he did end up with good counting stats before getting hurt in September.


http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=griffke02&year=2000

Horrible April, soso May and July, other months MVP like.

However, "you never get a second chance to make a first impression". Because of his terrible April and so-so May in 2000, Griffey made a poor first impression with the fans of his new club--and in a way, he has been fighting uphill ever since.

flyer85
05-08-2008, 03:27 PM
However, "you never get a second chance to make a first impression". Because of his terrible April and so-so May in 2000, Griffey made a poor first impression with the fans of his new club--and in a way, he has been fighting uphill ever since.if you look at JRs BABIP in April and May it explains the low BA (BABIP of 18% and 19%). His slow start seemingly had to do with poor luck as much as anything.

M2
05-08-2008, 03:27 PM
Good real life stories unfold they aren't fashioned. The franchise tried to sell a story and not a team; that wasn't going to work, and it never will.

Exactly. The Reds needed starting pitching on top of Jr. heading into the 2000 season and the failure to obtain it caused a far different story to emerge.

Matt700wlw
05-08-2008, 03:44 PM
I'll never understand sport fans' knack for running a team's best player out of town. I'm referring to Dunn over Griffey, but geesh- has here been a more consistent better Red than Dunn the past few years?

Dunn's this team's best player?

This team really is in trouble then...

Blitz Dorsey
05-08-2008, 03:57 PM
Part of the reason for Griffey's injuries was that he didn't take good enough care of his body. I think we all remember the "Does a cheetah stretch before it chases its prey?" comment when asked about his pre-game stretching routine. That was in 2000. In September, he first blows out his hammy. The Reds downplayed it at the time, but he re-injured it in the spring of 2001 and it's been disaster ever since. Then you add in the knee injuries, shoulder injuries and Griffey's aloof attitude and lack of hustle (never good things in Cincinnati) and you have the current state of affairs.

pahster
05-08-2008, 04:00 PM
Dunn's this team's best player?

This team really is in trouble then...

I would say Harang is their best player. Nothing wrong with Dunn being the team's best hitter, though. Hopefully he'll slide down to number two when Bruce comes up.

Matt700wlw
05-08-2008, 04:02 PM
Best "hitter"....no.

Slugger? Maybe.


You wouldn't know it right now, though.

Blitz Dorsey
05-08-2008, 04:02 PM
I'd have a hard time saying Dunn is the team's best hitter over Votto right now.

pahster
05-08-2008, 04:08 PM
Best "hitter"....no.

Slugger? Maybe.


You wouldn't know it right now, though.

Well if you're only looking at his line this year, then no, he's not. Do you think he's going to hit like this all year? I don't; the man is a beast at the plate.

IMO, the distinction between a "batter," "hitter," "slugger," etc. is both silly and spurious. All players have the same goals at the plate.

KronoRed
05-08-2008, 04:16 PM
You know every year Dunn gets blasted here as not being very good and 'such and such on the team' is better and every year Dunn ends up with the better numbers.

Votto better keep hitting 3HRs a game or he'll earn the "lazy" label ;)

M2
05-08-2008, 04:19 PM
Part of the reason for Griffey's injuries was that he didn't take good enough care of his body. I think we all remember the "Does a cheetah stretch before it chases its prey?" comment when asked about his pre-game stretching routine. That was in 2000. In September, he first blows out his hammy. The Reds downplayed it at the time, but he re-injured it in the spring of 2001 and it's been disaster ever since. Then you add in the knee injuries, shoulder injuries and Griffey's aloof attitude and lack of hustle (never good things in Cincinnati) and you have the current state of affairs.

Oh please, the man has worked his back from injuries that would end most people's careers. That's commitment.

Lack of hustle? The man's legs barely work at times, that's not lack of hustle. The man plays hard. Aloof attitude? Maybe toward some of the mediots in the Cincinnati market, but his teammates have nothing but glowing things to say about him and I've never heard anything other than him being extremely cordial with fans.

He took his training for granted a bit when he was younger, because everyone thinks they're immortal, but there was never a point in this man's life where he could be accused of being in bad shape. Injuries have hampered him, but his fitness level has always been toward the higher end of MLB spectrum.

What really did him in was all those years playing on the concrete turf of the Kingdome. That surface was brutal and the pounding his body took for 11 seasons in that park caught up with him in his 30s.

I've got no problem when someone says his time in Cincinnati has been a disappointment, but to insist it's the result of him basically not giving a rip couldn't be farther from the truth. The results have been lousy, but not for lack of effort or dedication.

osuceltic
05-08-2008, 04:26 PM
Oh please, the man has worked his back from injuries that would end most people's careers. That's commitment.

Lack of hustle? The man's legs barely work at times, that's not lack of hustle. The man plays hard. Aloof attitude? Maybe toward some of the mediots in the Cincinnati market, but his teammates have nothing but glowing things to say about him and I've never heard anything other than him being extremely cordial with fans.

He took his training for granted a bit when he was younger, because everyone thinks they're immortal, but there was never a point in this man's life where he could be accused of being in bad shape. Injuries have hampered him, but his fitness level has always been toward the higher end of MLB spectrum.

What really did him in was all those years playing on the concrete turf of the Kingdome. That surface was brutal and the pounding his body took for 11 seasons in that park caught up with him in his 30s.

I've got no problem when someone says his time in Cincinnati has been a disappointment, but to insist it's the result of him basically not giving a rip couldn't be farther from the truth. The results have been lousy, but not for lack of effort or dedication.

This is the kindest possible interpretation of these elements of the Junior discussion. I'm not saying the worst possible interpretation is true either, but this is cutting him a lot of slack.

M2
05-08-2008, 04:35 PM
This is the kindest possible interpretation of these elements of the Junior discussion. I'm not saying the worst possible interpretation is true either, but this is cutting him a lot of slack.

Hardly. Has the man gone through major surgeries and painful rehabs? Absolutely yes. Do his teammates consistently praise his character and effort? Yes they do. Jr.'s held in high regard throughout the game, that doesn't happen if you're just going through the motions for a paycheck.

If you want to say his time in Cincinnati has been a disaster, I'll be the first to agree with you, but if you want to push some half-baked theory about the man's lack of character then I'm going to chime in on how woefully off the mark that theory is. Why a player's health and on-field defects always have to be chalked up to a character flaw (sometimes it's true, but that is far from always the case) is a mindset I'm never going to understand.

jojo
05-08-2008, 04:38 PM
Oh please, the man has worked his back from injuries that would end most people's careers. That's commitment.

Lack of hustle? The man's legs barely work at times, that's not lack of hustle. The man plays hard. Aloof attitude? Maybe toward some of the mediots in the Cincinnati market, but his teammates have nothing but glowing things to say about him and I've never heard anything other than him being extremely cordial with fans.

He took his training for granted a bit when he was younger, because everyone thinks they're immortal, but there was never a point in this man's life where he could be accused of being in bad shape. Injuries have hampered him, but his fitness level has always been toward the higher end of MLB spectrum.

What really did him in was all those years playing on the concrete turf of the Kingdome. That surface was brutal and the pounding his body took for 11 seasons in that park caught up with him in his 30s.

I've got no problem when someone says his time in Cincinnati has been a disappointment, but to insist it's the result of him basically not giving a rip couldn't be farther from the truth. The results have been lousy, but not for lack of effort or dedication.

This is pretty much spot on.

There were times in Seattle where it was obvious that Jr was protecting his body rather than going all out for a ball (aka Freel). Frankly, though, he was one of the most valuable players in baseball and a few less times smacking a wall is a good thing I think.

Matt700wlw
05-08-2008, 04:41 PM
The Griffey era hasn't worked out....unfortunately.

For both parties, it'd be best to move on.

WVRedsFan
05-08-2008, 04:43 PM
I often wonder if everyone is so concerned about what he makes ($) that they like to paint him in a bad light. Sure he's expensive, but he has mostly produced when he was healthy. Who can say what caused a certain injury?

Everyone is so impressed with minor league's Jay Bruce (and I am too) that they are just salivating to get rid of a legend who had gone through more than anyone else would (who had means) to play for the Cincinnati Reds. i certainly hope Jay is as advertised. I know it's time for Junior to hang it up, but I watched Stan Musial and Ted Williams play late in life. No one complained about them.

M2
05-08-2008, 04:48 PM
I know it's time for Junior to hang it up, but I watched Stan Musial and Ted Williams play late in life. No one complained about them.

No one complained about Musial, but Williams was a consistent target of complaints throughout his career. He had a love/hate relationship with Boston fans and a hate/hate relationship with a good chunk of the media.

RFS62
05-08-2008, 04:49 PM
Oh please, the man has worked his back from injuries that would end most people's careers. That's commitment.

Lack of hustle? The man's legs barely work at times, that's not lack of hustle. The man plays hard. Aloof attitude? Maybe toward some of the mediots in the Cincinnati market, but his teammates have nothing but glowing things to say about him and I've never heard anything other than him being extremely cordial with fans.

He took his training for granted a bit when he was younger, because everyone thinks they're immortal, but there was never a point in this man's life where he could be accused of being in bad shape. Injuries have hampered him, but his fitness level has always been toward the higher end of MLB spectrum.

What really did him in was all those years playing on the concrete turf of the Kingdome. That surface was brutal and the pounding his body took for 11 seasons in that park caught up with him in his 30s.

I've got no problem when someone says his time in Cincinnati has been a disappointment, but to insist it's the result of him basically not giving a rip couldn't be farther from the truth. The results have been lousy, but not for lack of effort or dedication.



Very well said.

I'll never understand how so many fans simply forget how he got those injuries. He got hurt playing flat out. He got hurt on the field. Not riding a dirt bike, on the field playing flat out, like he always did. Now he can't anymore.

Say what you want about Junior, but he always played as hard as he could.

Chip R
05-08-2008, 05:00 PM
Aloof attitude? Maybe toward some of the mediots in the Cincinnati market, but his teammates have nothing but glowing things to say about him and I've never heard anything other than him being extremely cordial with fans.


I think Cincinnati fans, especially the local fans, expected the Jr. of the TV ads and Sports Center interviews and other clips that we caught in short pieces. We saw the smiling Jr. who caught balls over the fence for outs and hit tons of home runs and did all the things a superstar was supposed to. We didn't see the day in, day out Jr. We didn't see his 0-4 days or times where he may not have busted his rear down the line on a ground ball to 2nd. We didn't see the human side of Jr.

Now maybe he changed from when he was in SEA, I don't know. I doubt he just flipped a switch when he became a Red and went from outgoing superstar to moody superstar.

We didn't get Jr.'s best and some feel cheated. Most don't care if he's traded and welcome it. I have a feeling, though, that 5-10 years from now, all the people who criticized him and booed him are going to welcome him back with open arms. We're going to be proud to have had a first ballot HOFer - who did it the right way - play for us. Even if we didn't see him at his best, we still saw him play.

Blitz Dorsey
05-08-2008, 06:28 PM
What is wrong with liking Griffey but calling a spade a spade? The guy has never enjoyed being in the weight room, he doesn't like extra running, he simply has never taken good care of his body. Make all the excuses you want, those are the facts as I know it. Have I personally been in the weight room with Griffey to see this for myself? No. But I've heard about it for years. Same thing with his lack of running and lack of stretching and everything else that the best pro athletes do to stay on top of their game. Griffey broke down way too early and that is because he didn't take good enough care of his body. I am sick of the excuses. I actually like Griffey and can appreciate watching a former great player and a future HOFer, but that doesn't mean we can't be honest here. To just call him "unlucky" is a misnomer. He has contributed to his bad luck and that is putting it mildly. He has the sweetest swing I will ever see though. I don't understand why there can't be some middle ground on Griffey. I like him, but I see his many faults. The Reds were just unlucky that we got a former superstar who broke down about 5 years earlier than most superstars.

Blitz Dorsey
05-08-2008, 06:33 PM
Oh, and if you don't think Griffey has a poor overall attitude, you haven't been paying close enough attention. I'm referring to pouting about moving to RF, even when it was obvious to everyone including his father that he needed to. I'm talking about sniveling when he was asked to bat anywhere but third because he was killing the team during one of his many "slumps." I'm referring to just an overall Marvin Lewislike crappy attitude to anyone other than those in his inner circle. Griffey gets his feelings hurt easier than a female on the 28th day.

jojo
05-08-2008, 07:33 PM
Now maybe he changed from when he was in SEA, I don't know. I doubt he just flipped a switch when he became a Red and went from outgoing superstar to moody superstar.

Jr wasn't exactly a media darling in Seattle either-face of the franchise as fashioned by the marketing machine, yes. Buddies with the "media", not so much.

During the lead up to the trade demand/contract negotiations, there was actually a vocal contingent of anti-Jr Ms fans.

redsfan4445
05-08-2008, 10:27 PM
when and if the reds trade JR.. dont expect any other superstar to come here.. Especially for a discount!! Heck most that bash him for getting injured on the field, would have bashed him if he went to Atlanta in 2000 instead of coming home!! "Jr only cares about money" blah blah stuff... Jr is NOT the reason the Reds have sucked CARL LINDNER doing NOTHING else to improve the team like Jr was told would happen, is the blame!!!

RedsManRick
05-08-2008, 10:47 PM
when and if the reds trade JR.. dont expect any other superstar to come here.. Especially for a discount!! Heck most that bash him for getting injured on the field, would have bashed him if he went to Atlanta in 2000 instead of coming home!! "Jr only cares about money" blah blah stuff... Jr is NOT the reason the Reds have sucked CARL LINDNER doing NOTHING else to improve the team like Jr was told would happen, is the blame!!!

Because as of today, superstars are lining up to take less money to come to Cincinnati...

I don't think superstars will be turned off by the broken promises of a bygone owner. They'll more likely be turned off by the lack of supporting cast, recent winning tradition, and one of the least glamorous cities in professional sports.