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View Full Version : Why Does Brandon Phillips Get a Free Pass?



kbrake
05-09-2008, 02:31 AM
Why is it that as soon as Dunn and Junior slump its time to get rid of them but when Phillips slumps not a word gets said?

I mean when Dunn slumps at least he still gets on, when Phillips slumps he is an automatic out. Dunn seems to be the target of so much of the media and yet when Phillips slumps and refuses to talk to the media after a good game not a word is said.

Do you think once Dunn and Junior are dealt for nothing, Brandon Phillips will quickly become the guy targeted by the media for the Reds problems?

Topcat
05-09-2008, 04:27 AM
Why is it that as soon as Dunn and Junior slump its time to get rid of them but when Phillips slumps not a word gets said?

I mean when Dunn slumps at least he still gets on, when Phillips slumps he is an automatic out. Dunn seems to be the target of so much of the media and yet when Phillips slumps and refuses to talk to the media after a good game not a word is said.

Do you think once Dunn and Junior are dealt for nothing, Brandon Phillips will quickly become the guy targeted by the media for the Reds problems?


His age and ability with the glove. Smaller paycheck along with fact he is still new to major leagues. Need a 1000 more reasons?

oneupper
05-09-2008, 06:10 AM
Phillips has been cast into the impossible role of being the right handed power balance vis Dunn and Junior.
Batting Cleanup...no less.

He's not getting it done and IMO...he simply isn't fit for the role.

I recall a BP who could punch one through the right side regularly and was a legitimate threat on the bases.
This "swinging from the heels at pitches at my ankles" BP, who leads the team in Ks (let's not discuss if they're bad or not) isn't helping the team at all. Sure...5 HRs, but several (like the 2 in SF) were "nothing" shots.

No free pass from me. Part of the blame goes to Mackanin (who started that cleanup nonsense) and Baker (who has made it a fixture).

klw
05-09-2008, 06:16 AM
Dunn seems to be the target of so much of the media and yet when Phillips slumps and refuses to talk to the media after a good game not a word is said.


http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67703
Multiple articles in the media as discussed in a 5 page thread is hardly "not a word is said"
The reason for the quick trade them response is due to Jr's and Dunn's contract situation.

StillFunkyB
05-09-2008, 06:17 AM
Why is it that as soon as Dunn and Junior slump its time to get rid of them but when Phillips slumps not a word gets said?

I mean when Dunn slumps at least he still gets on, when Phillips slumps he is an automatic out. Dunn seems to be the target of so much of the media and yet when Phillips slumps and refuses to talk to the media after a good game not a word is said.

Do you think once Dunn and Junior are dealt for nothing, Brandon Phillips will quickly become the guy targeted by the media for the Reds problems?

I will tell you what IMHO the reason Dunn gets most of the bashing, etc...

It really does have to do with his ability to hit with men in scoring position. Quite a few of us here follow just about every pitch. A lot of us who do recognize what Dunn does over an entire season. Those people are the minority. The casual fan (majority) most likely turns the game on when Dunn is up with two on and two out and watches him strike out.

As far as the press goes, well I don't really think much needs to be said about the level of talent this city has with their sports writers.

Dunn is a very frustrating player. I forget who said it here, but they were very correct and it helps ease the frustration if you look at it that way, and that's Dunn is an OBP guy with raw power. That was spot on...sorry I forgot who said it.....

Dunn reminds me of the kid you played with growing up that you knew was good but tried to hit home runs every time he came up.

Spring~Fields
05-09-2008, 08:50 AM
Why is it that as soon as Dunn and Junior slump its time to get rid of them but when Phillips slumps not a word gets said?




Higher expectations, positive anticipations that are actually complimentary of a Griffey or a Dunn, but when those higher expectations or positive anticipations are disappointed, the disappointment is magnified through frustration from a form of goal blocking, then people react to that disappointment or frustration over not receiving their momentary emotional goals, especially if it happens with any degree of frequency.

With Phillips less is anticipated or expected so when he does something well in the field or at the plate that too gets magnified in his favor and his flawed moments are more readily dismissed passively. With a higher percentage of payroll going to player x or y, the greater the expectation is on those with the higher percentage of payroll going their way, versus lower players.

I don't think anyone gets a free pass or free ride, eventually.

RedsManRick
05-09-2008, 09:58 AM
Because he has a big smile and was a good quote last year.

puca
05-09-2008, 09:58 AM
I cut him more slack because of how much brings to the table defensively. He is not just in the lineup for his bat.

Now I did find it alarming (or funny in a ironic sort of way) that during a broadcast last month Jeff and Marty suggested that Brandon was struggling because he was 'trying to hard' to make up for Dunn and Griffey's lack of production. So apparently it was Dunn and Griffey's fault that Brandon wasn't hitting.

Just move him out of the cleanup spot please.

Raisor
05-09-2008, 10:08 AM
Just move him out of the cleanup spot please.

If they want to hit him clean up against LHP, swell. But against RHP he needs to be hitting 7th.

MWM
05-09-2008, 10:09 AM
I think it’s as simple as he has the perceptions of someone who hustles all the time and plays with enthusiasm. He’s much closer to Pete Rose than Dunn or Griffey.

Raisor
05-09-2008, 10:12 AM
I think itís as simple as he has the perceptions of someone who hustles all the time and plays with enthusiasm. Heís much closer to Pete Rose than Dunn or Griffey.

Change "Pete Rose" to "Joe Morgan" and I think you've got it.

Remember all the articles in the offseason about how Phillips' year was as good or better then anything Joe did? (of course that's nonsense, but when did that stop anyone).

REDREAD
05-09-2008, 10:15 AM
Do you think once Dunn and Junior are dealt for nothing, Brandon Phillips will quickly become the guy targeted by the media for the Reds problems?

Yes Arroyo and Phillips will be the new whipping boys. That's my guess.
Perhaps EdE will take more of the heat as well. That's your overpaid pitcher, and two big hitters.

Cyclone792
05-09-2008, 10:29 AM
Change "Pete Rose" to "Joe Morgan" and I think you've got it.

Remember all the articles in the offseason about how Phillips' year was as good or better then anything Joe did? (of course that's nonsense, but when did that stop anyone).

I think this is part of why Phillips gets a free pass, or maybe I should phrase it "let off easier" than Dunn or Griffey. Quite a few fans actually believe Phillips is as good as Joe Morgan because Phillips hits for a higher batting average and hit more home runs last season than Morgan ever did. Then those same fans will get frustrated at Dunn for taking a walk with a runner on 2nd base.

What's ironic is while most Reds fans are frustrated with Dunn's offensive game, I'm probably more frustrated with Phillips' offensive game than any other Reds player. Phillips' offensive game involves swinging at too much garbage, which results in him making too many outs.

Benihana
05-09-2008, 10:29 AM
I think itís as simple as he has the perceptions of someone who hustles all the time and plays with enthusiasm. Heís much closer to Pete Rose than Dunn or Griffey.

Nailed it.

The contract situation, defensive ability, and experience are all secondary reasons that should be factored in as well, but IMO the hustle/effort factor is the long and short of it.

Chip R
05-09-2008, 10:41 AM
Nailed it.

The contract situation, defensive ability, and experience are all secondary reasons that should be factored in as well, but IMO the hustle/effort factor is the long and short of it.


That'll only get him so far as we can see with Freel. He's still going to have to produce to keep getting the love he's been getting. Dunn and Jr. probably won't be here to kick around anymore.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-09-2008, 10:53 AM
I think itís as simple as he has the perceptions of someone who hustles all the time and plays with enthusiasm. Heís much closer to Pete Rose than Dunn or Griffey.

Agree. Plus, Brandon wears more of his emotions on his sleeve. Fans think Dunn and Junior don't care because they don't show nearly as much emotion.

Once Junior and Dunn are gone, he will be more under the microscope. Hopefully, his crabbiness with the press does not grow or the press will rip him to shreds when he's struggling and have the fans hating on him soon enough.

CrackerJack
05-09-2008, 10:55 AM
Nailed it.

The contract situation, defensive ability, and experience are all secondary reasons that should be factored in as well, but IMO the hustle/effort factor is the long and short of it.

Slumping for Phillips still = an .807 ops, 5 SB's, 6 HR's, a .276 avg and a .493 Slug %.

I'll take that in a so-so start to a year. Oh yeah he had a 30/30 season last year and has plenty of time to improve, plays every day, has a very good glove and range.

So, maybe all the bumpkins in Cincinnati recognize a guy who brings a lot more to the table than OBP? Dunno.

Dunn is very streaky and the casual fan still focuses on BA and defense, and Dunn has had many years to improve, and hasn't. He's a big, slumbering doofus more or less, and fans see that. Watching him play outfield at times is utterly painful.

I like them both, just don't think they're surrounded by the right people and could use another RH bat to protect them.

I DO get the whole overrated "hustle" silliness though here.

If nothing else, I'm not sure BP gets his just due in this town, or on this board. Maybe because he wears his hat crooked at times and isn't from Lexington? :)

I don't know of many perfect ball players out there, and if there is such a thing, the Yanks would buy them.

Phillips will do, why we are even worrying about him or looking for reasons to criticize or wonder why people don't bash him more often is silly.

Cyclone792
05-09-2008, 11:02 AM
Once Junior and Dunn are gone, he will be more under the microscope. Hopefully, his crabbiness with the press does not grow or the press will rip him to shreds when he's struggling and have the fans hating on him soon enough.

I'll add this: Fan expectations in this town typically - and unfairly - outgrow the player's ability to produce.

For one reason or another, most fans expect players to either gradually improve every single year, or if they have a great season early in their career, to consistently match that great season every single year.

Dunn was a monster in 2001 across three levels; the fans expected that every year in Cincy, and when he didn't deliver, they got aggravated. Griffey was a legend in Seattle, and when he didn't deliever, fans got aggravated. Arroyo had an outstanding year in 2006, and when he didn't deliver quite to that level in 2007, fans got aggravated. Phillips was being compared to Joe Morgan last season because of lunacy, and sadly for Phillips, if he can't maintain that comparison then the fans will get aggravated.

In fact, Jay Bruce's star in Cincinnati may never shine as positively bright on him as it is right now ... while he is in Louisville. If he comes up and explodes into a consistent 1.000 OPS monster, then he'll be adored. But if he comes up and is only a .900 OPS solid outfielder who also strikes out 150 times each season, the fans will try to run him out.

MWM
05-09-2008, 11:03 AM
What's ironic is while most Reds fans are frustrated with Dunn's offensive game, I'm probably more frustrated with Phillips' offensive game than any other Reds player. Phillips' offensive game involves swinging at too much garbage, which results in him making too many outs.

Me too. I love Phillips as a player, especially on the defensive end. But watching his ABs can be incredibly frustrating. He swings at so many bad pitches.

Another thing re: Phillips. Another reason he's left pretty much alone is that the town has Dunn and Griffey to pile on. If those guys are gone next year and the Reds are struggling, unless he's having a big year, he'll become the target of the venom. It's just the way Cincy works.

Benihana
05-09-2008, 11:54 AM
That'll only get him so far as we can see with Freel. He's still going to have to produce to keep getting the love he's been getting. Dunn and Jr. probably won't be here to kick around anymore.

I don't disagree

coachw513
05-09-2008, 01:14 PM
I'll add this: Fan expectations in this town typically - and unfairly - outgrow the player's ability to produce.

For one reason or another, most fans expect players to either gradually improve every single year, or if they have a great season early in their career, to consistently match that great season every single year.

I've always wondered how much worse in '08 would've been the vitriolic reaction to Johnny Bench's 1971 season and the horrible start he got off to in '72 before righting the ship???

I'd be much more amenable to BP just watching him in his comfortable 6 hole in the lineup...it's just this sickening feeling as 3-4-5 come up in our lineup every game (many games) that makes it that much more troubling...

BP is who he is (though I'd continue to expect growth in his career) and he brings far more good than bad, especially when evaluating him in terms of being a 2B...

flyer85
05-09-2008, 01:24 PM
IMHO it is because people have never expected him to be the kind of hitter that can carry a team ... even if the Reds can't figure out he shouldn't bat in the top half of the order.

KronoRed
05-09-2008, 02:03 PM
I think itís as simple as he has the perceptions of someone who hustles all the time and plays with enthusiasm. Heís much closer to Pete Rose than Dunn or Griffey.

Exactly, he runs out to the field, he smiles a lot and he isn't the big money guy the fans seem to loath so much.

Mario-Rijo
05-09-2008, 03:12 PM
Everyone get's a free pass at certain junctures including Dunn & Griffey who have both had plenty more than their fair share. But there is always a point at which a fan has seen enough to make a decision on who this player is, it just differs for everyone. The only caveat is that when it's looked at on a larger scale (i.e. the masses), it's a different time frame than some individuals. And once it's been decided what the player is then comes the expectations.

Bottom line is the majority hasn't yet concluded that BP is or isn't something in particular. Let's face it everybody in life get's labeled be it fairly or not and baseball is no different. He (BP) is still learning and thusly it isn't fair to be critical of someone who has yet had the time to completely develop his game at this level. Assuming of course the person you are being critical of has the talent neccessary to ultimately become what you want or need if not then that's a different argument.