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WVRed
05-11-2008, 11:12 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3389049


In August 2007, a few days before the fall semester began at the University of Southern California, freshman basketball guard O.J. Mayo decided he needed some new clothes for school. His friends, Louis Johnson and Rodney Guillory, picked him up in Guillory's black Infiniti SUV and soon they were at a mall in Carson, Calif., picking out thousands of dollars of clothing.

In the college basketball world, Guillory and Johnson are what's known as "runners" -- middlemen who develop relationships with high-profile athletes with the goal of delivering them to a sports agent when the players turn pro. Johnson is a former Long Beach sportswriter who had met Mayo more than a year earlier and was just getting started in the world of runners. Guillory was an L.A. event promoter who also played a role in the suspension of a USC basketball player in 2000.

As Mayo held up different clothing combinations for Guillory's approval, Johnson said Mayo had a plan. Over the next year in a city that is home to the stars, he was going to create the Mayo Brand, and then take his total package to the National Basketball Association. Once he turned pro, Mayo would sign with an agent at Bill Duffy Associates Sports Management (BDA), which represents a number of NBA stars, including Steve Nash, Yao Ming and Carmelo Anthony; and the agent would polish that image.

Most NBA experts predict Mayo will be a lottery pick, expected to be among the first 14 selections in the June 26 draft. To go with his extraordinary athletic ability, he has the ingredients that make him a sports marketer's dream: intelligence and charisma.

But on this day in late August, Mayo was missing something: clothes for college.

"He wanted to have the [clothes] that would suitably fit his image," Johnson recalled. "He wanted the Kanye West-preppy look, and a combination that ranged from the Jay-Z smooth look to the stuff that Lil Wayne might wear. He got some shirts, pants, a couple of jackets, shoes. Everything had to correspond with the shoes."

Johnson said Mayo shopped for about an hour that day. When it came time to pay for the purchases, Guillory pulled out an American Express card and charged the bill of $2,300 - which, the sales clerk said later, included a discount of about 15 percent because of "who [Mayo] was." Johnson provided a copy of the receipt from the purchase to ESPN's "Outside the Lines," which verified the shopping spree by interviewing the clerk who assisted Mayo with his purchases. The clerk remembered Mayo and Guillory making multiple trips to the store, Men's Land in Carson, Calif., during the school year. A clerk at another Men's Land location in Culver City also remembered helping Mayo shop with Guillory, and said he recalled Guillory paying the bill for Mayo's merchandise.

Clothing isn't the only thing Guillory, now 43, bought for Mayo during the course of their friendship, according to Johnson. Guillory also paid for Mayo's flat-screen television, meals and airline tickets for friends and a family member.

And each time Mayo allowed Guillory and Johnson to provide him with money or other benefits, an NCAA violation may have been committed, according to NCAA rules.

"Outside the Lines" began investigating Mayo's relationship with Guillory in January. At the time, Johnson was still an integral part of Mayo's inner circle, loyal to the athlete and sworn to a code of secrecy within the group. The most prominent member of that group was Guillory.

Johnson said Mayo told him he trusted him like a family member. Johnson said he didn't have a job during this time, but Mayo found ways to reward him. Around Christmas in December, Johnson said Mayo surprised him with a gift of $1,000 in cash for what Mayo termed as "being his guy and being loyal to him." Johnson admitted that he hoped to profit more once the player made it to the NBA.

But Johnson said as he grew closer to Mayo, Guillory tried to put distance between Johnson and the star player. According to Johnson, Guillory's power in the group derived from having the closest and most-trusted relationship with Mayo. In fact, Guillory began this process by slowly wresting Mayo away from his longtime AAU coach, Dwaine Barnes -- a man Mayo called his "grandfather," Johnson and others close to Mayo said.

Barnes and Mayo officially cut ties about two years ago. When reached by telephone, Barnes declined to comment.

"There's no doubt about it that Rodney has more influence over O.J. than anyone else on this planet," Johnson said. "And it's like the most unusual dynamic I've ever seen in a mentor-younger-person-type relationship."

By March, as conference tournaments were heating up in college basketball, Johnson said he stopped hanging around the group. He accused Guillory of creating a strain in his relationship with Mayo by misrepresenting things Johnson said about Mayo, eventually sabotaging their relationship.

It was around this time when Johnson began to speak with "Outside the Lines." According to Johnson, Guillory was the connection between Mayo and BDA Sports. Johnson said BDA provided Guillory with money to help him maintain his relationship with Mayo, and to give Mayo some spending money. In exchange, Mayo would be delivered to BDA Sports when he turned pro.

Among the allegations made by Johnson:

• Over the course of roughly three years prior to the start of Mayo's freshman season at USC, BDA Sports provided Guillory with about $200,000, some of it through an account set up at Citibank. Johnson said Guillory told him details about how the account was set up through an intermediary and how it worked: Each month, Guillory told a BDA official what the anticipated "expenses" would be, and that amount would be put into the account to take care of Guillory and Mayo's needs. Guillory, Johnson said, had a card to make withdrawals from the account. Johnson said he was sometimes with Guillory when he made those withdrawals, and Johnson provided "Outside the Lines" with a receipt from one $200 withdrawal that he said occurred in his presence.

• BDA helped Guillory purchase an Infiniti QX56 that Guillory drives. California registration records show Guillory's vehicle came from a dealership co-owned by former USC and NFL player Ronnie Lott, a longtime friend of Duffy, BDA Sports' chairman and CEO. According to Consumer Guide Automotive, the car was valued at around $50,000 when it was first purchased in 2005.

• Guillory has been giving money to Mayo for years, according to Johnson, who provided Western Union receipts that illustrate how Johnson and Guillory wired hundreds of dollars to friends of Mayo while he was in high school to avoid a paper trail leading to Mayo.

• Hotel receipts and airline itineraries show multiple trips made by Johnson and Guillory. The destinations correspond with where Mayo played in high school and at tournaments around the country.

• Guillory paid for Mayo's cell phone service, which T-Mobile billed to a nonprofit foundation run by Guillory that, according to California state records, is designed to serve "the educational, health, recreational and social needs of youths and elderly citizens residing in inner-city communities." Johnson provided "Outside the Lines" with the service agreement for four separate lines on the account, set up on March 13, 2007. Johnson said the phone lines were for Guillory, Mayo, a Mayo relative and Johnson. T-Mobile sent a bill to Guillory's foundation for $558.56 for the September charges for the four lines. Of that amount, $171.17 was for Mayo's phone service and another $192.33 was for the phone service of Mayo's relative, according to the invoice and Johnson.

• In addition to several shopping sprees at the two Men's Land stores in the Los Angeles area, Johnson said Guillory provided Mayo with a flat-screen television, a hotel room and meals -- items all paid for with a credit card that belongs to another nonprofit organization, The National Organization of Sickle Cell Prevention and Awareness Foundation. The organization has never registered as a charitable trust with the California Attorney General's Office and is unknown in the Los Angeles sickle-cell charitable community.

• Guillory purchased airline tickets for a member of Mayo's family and another Mayo friend to visit Mayo at USC, said Johnson, who provided "Outside the Lines" with a plane itinerary and a receipt for those trips.

While Guillory has been by Mayo's side off the court and often in the stands at USC games, Johnson said he believes USC officials were unaware that Guillory was providing cash and other benefits to the player, although he added that Guillory had regular contact with USC basketball coach Tim Floyd. Johnson recounted a story that he says Guillory told him: The day Mayo's letter of intent arrived at USC, Guillory was sitting in the USC basketball office with members of the coaching staff office as the fax arrived.

It is a misdemeanor in California for sports agents or their representatives to provide cash or gifts to student-athletes. Johnson said Mayo always knew he was ticketed to sign with BDA Sports. At his April 17 news conference to announce that he was making himself available for the NBA draft in June, Mayo named BDA senior vice president Calvin Andrews as his agent. That was a mere formality, Johnson said.

"O.J. knew that Rodney was getting money from BDA not only to take care of Rodney but also to take care of O.J.," Johnson said. "He would say that Calvin was his guy. … Calvin Andrews was going to represent O.J. Mayo through the BDA brand, absolutely."

"Outside The Lines" asked for reaction to these allegations from Mayo, from BDA and from USC. Guillory and BDA Sports denied ESPN's repeated requests for an interview. Through statements, Mayo and BDA management denied any wrongdoing. USC, also through a statement, denied any knowledge of NCAA violations by Mayo.

Mayo's statement read, in part: "I am focusing on the process of making my dream come true, which is to play professional basketball. I will not allow these allegations to become a distraction to me and my family. I have been through investigations by the NCAA, the Pac Ten [sic] and USC before I attended school and during the time I have been here. I have not engaged in any wrongdoing. If these claims were true I would suspect they would have been discovered by one of these organizations."

The NCAA and USC have had problems with Guillory in the past. In 2000, Trojans guard Jeff Trepagnier was one of two college players suspended by the NCAA, in part because of benefits Guillory supplied when he was working as a runner for a Las Vegas sports agency. Former Fresno State guard Tito Maddox -- the other player suspended -- told "Outside the Lines" that Guillory provided him with plane tickets, money and other benefits, and that Guillory "finds kids and sends them to agents he's dealing with."

Mayo, in his statement, said his experience with Guillory has been above board.

"Rodney has been a positive influence on me as well as a strong African-American male presence in my life," said Mayo's statement, which was issued through BDA Sports. "Recently, my mother had the opportunity to spend time with Rodney as well, and has shared her appreciation for the way he has always treated me like I was family when I was so far away from home. I have nothing but respect for Rodney."

Johnson, 36, said he got to know Guillory about 10 years ago. At the time, Johnson was working for the Long Beach Press-Telegram, writing a story about Dominguez High School center Tyson Chandler. Guillory had fallen into bankruptcy in the early 1990s but was trying to establish himself on the Southern California high school basketball scene.

During a photo shoot for the newspaper, Johnson said, he allowed Chandler to wear a T-shirt that promoted the apparel company owned by one of Guillory's friends, and Guillory appreciated the gesture. Johnson and Guillory remained acquaintances as Guillory began organizing high school basketball tournaments. Johnson sometimes wrote about Guillory's tournaments for the newspaper as their paths continued to cross.

Johnson said he was covering the 2003 Adidas ABCD basketball camp when Mayo, then 15, and Guillory, then 38, met for the first time. Mayo and Guillory quickly forged a bond, speaking frequently on the telephone while Mayo was winning two state championships more than 2,000 miles away at North College Hill High School in Cincinnati and then another state title in his senior year at Huntington High School in West Virginia.

In an interview with ESPN's "E:60" in November 2007, Mayo gave this account of his early relationship with Guillory: "At that time, everyone was telling me I was the best thing since sliced bread. So when [Guillory] started critiquing my game and trying to make me a better player, I just felt a good vibe about him."

The week before Christmas in 2005, Guillory began to leverage that relationship. He co-sponsored a tournament in Southern California with Reebok that featured Mayo's North College Hill team. Guillory paid the school $16,000, plus all travel expenses, for the chance to showcase Mayo for two games in California, according to the contract between Guillory and the school, which "Outside the Lines" obtained through a public records request.

Johnson said USC and coach Tim Floyd weren't aware of the payments to Mayo, but knew their star freshman was associated with Guillory.
By the following summer, Johnson had fallen on hard times. He was unemployed and about to plead guilty to charges of selling cocaine, for which he received a one-year suspended sentence and received three years of probation. Johnson said during that time he reconnected with Guillory, and soon they were driving to two events Mayo participated in: the Reebok Big Time Tournament in Las Vegas and the Michael Jordan Flight School Camp in Santa Barbara.

Johnson added that Guillory and Mayo were supportive of him while his troubles with the law were adjudicated. During that time, he said, their friendship was truly validated at a dinner at the Calabasas home of Sonny Vaccaro, the former shoe company executive. There, seated at the table along with Guillory, Mayo told Vaccaro, "Lou is family." Vaccaro didn't respond to an interview request .

"That told me I had just taken it to a new level of intimacy," Johnson said. "I was literally at the lowest point I've ever been in before, and that situation, that 'belonging' at that time for me was the boost I needed to keep me going."

As their friendship blossomed, Mayo's senior year of high school began. Johnson said he and Guillory made at least four cross-country trips to be with Mayo. In the effort to remain close to the player, they stayed for days at a time in hotel rooms or crashed with Mayo's girlfriend's mother in Cincinnati, from where they could make the two-plus-hour drive to Huntington.

"He needed to maintain his relationship with the kid," Johnson said of Guillory. "It was too big of a risk for him not to be close to O.J. when things really particularly heat up. [Mayo] is a senior, he was a McDonald's All-American, he is a superstar. … If anything, that was the time to get close and try to strengthen the relationship."

Johnson said Guillory was using some of the money from BDA to take care of their expenses. Johnson quickly took to his new role in Mayo's inner circle, which he said included everything from helping Mayo with homework to "giving Rodney help or advice on different situations that may pop up." When he and Guillory weren't able to be in the same town as Mayo, he said, they kept in contact with Mayo by phone.

Johnson said Guillory detailed BDA's system for providing money to Guillory in exchange for delivering Mayo as a BDA client down the road. Johnson said Guillory called Andrews when he needed money.

"[Guillory] had a credit card that was set up through his Citibank Smith Barney account, and each month there would be X amount of dollars that would be dispensed to this account," Johnson said.

Johnson said Guillory once tallied the cash and property that BDA had provided him, which totaled between $200,000 and $250,000. About $30,000 of that made its way to Mayo and others close to him, he said. That total includes the Infiniti SUV Guillory received as part of his arrangement with BDA, according to Johnson. California registration records show the Infiniti was purchased from Tracy Toyota in Tracy, Calif., near the Bay Area. The dealership is co-owned by former San Francisco 49ers Lott and Keena Turner.

Tracy Toyota doesn't carry the Infiniti brand. Yet California registration records show that Tracy Toyota bought and registered Guillory's vehicle on June 17, 2005. On July 16, 2005, the dealership transferred the title of ownership of the brand-new Infiniti to Guillory. Tracy Toyota is located 336 miles from where Guillory lives in Inglewood. It isn't clear how much is owed on the vehicle, but Toyota Motor Credit Corp. in Georgia has a lien on the vehicle, according to California DMV records.

Lott told "Outside the Lines" that he has only met Mayo once and he didn't know Guillory had obtained a vehicle from his dealership. Turner said he's "known Bill [Duffy] for a number of years," and that the dealership has taken a number of referrals from BDA Sports in the past. But he doesn't remember helping to broker the deal for Guillory's vehicle.

On Friday, Duffy and Andrews provided this statement to ESPN in response to specific questions regarding the agency's relationship with Guillory and the benefits Johnson alleges were provided to Guillory and Mayo through BDA:

"Developing a rapport with Rodney Guillory was a prerequisite for the multiple agencies attempting to recruit O.J. Mayo. There were absolutely no illegalities in our recruitment of O.J. Mayo nor were there any agreements or understandings towards his selection of BDA. O.J. Mayo's decision to choose BDA as his representation firm had absolutely no bearing on anything other than O.J. recognizing our achievements and firmly believing that BDA will provide the guidance for him to reach his goals and attain great success."

Johnson said BDA remained in close contact with Mayo while he was at USC but the agency stopped providing money to Guillory on a monthly basis last summer. "The money ran out with BDA right around the time O.J.'s senior year [in high school] ended," he said.

To fill the void, Johnson said Guillory arranged to get an American Express card registered to The National Organization of Sickle Cell Prevention and Awareness Foundation.

California Secretary of State records indicate that the nonprofit organization incorporated in 1999. But according to the California Attorney General's office, the organization has never registered as a charitable trust with its office, despite two letters requesting that it do so. And the organization's work is not known to other sickle cell groups in the area, said Mary E. Brown, president and CEO of the Sickle Cell Disease Foundation of California.

"We are the hub for the sickle-cell community, and we've never heard of them," Brown said.

Guillory, armed with a new line of credit worth thousands of dollars from the American Express card, began to spend on himself and Mayo before the fall semester began at USC, Johnson said. Receipts Johnson provided to "Outside the Lines" show the scope of Guillory's purchases:

• A hotel room in Hermosa Beach, which Johnson said Mayo and a girlfriend used.

• A 42-inch flat-screen TV, which Johnson said was for Mayo's dorm room.

• Meals and thousands of dollars worth of clothing.

Johnson said he was present on all of the shopping expeditions, and "Outside the Lines" has confirmed independently that Guillory and Mayo frequented two of the restaurants.

A Men's Land salesman, who gave his name as Eddie but declined to provide his last name, said, "[Mayo] got lots of stuff." Eddie remembered that O.J. acquired about 30 pairs of sneakers from his store over the course of the school year ("A lot of Jordans"), and said he even had Mayo's cell phone number programmed into his phone so he could call him when new merchandise came in.

Nate Turner, a clerk at the Culver City Men's Land location, said he remembers Guillory paying for Mayo's purchase on at least one occasion. He had Guillory's cell phone number programmed into his phone, but in a way that would remind him who Guillory normally shopped with: "Rodney Mayo."

How did Guillory get access to a sickle cell charity's credit card?

According to Johnson, Guillory sought out a longtime friend: a furniture store employee named Tony Hicks. Hicks also has an alias, federal court records show: "Amonra Elohim."

Since 2000, Hicks or Elohim has been listed as the sickle-cell charity's CEO, according to documents filed with the state of California. Hicks has a criminal record: In 2002, he pleaded guilty to mail fraud in connection with a mortgage scheme. In 2005, according to a U.S. District Court document, Hicks violated the terms of his probation because he "fraudulently represented himself as The Red Cross" by setting up a Web site soliciting donations for victims of the 2004 tsunami in Asia in which more than 275,000 people died.

"Outside the Lines" approached Hicks and asked him why the foundation gave Guillory an American Express card. "That's personal information," Hicks responded.

When asked why Hicks let Guillory spend thousands of dollars on Mayo using the card, Hicks replied, "No comment."

At the time of the purchases on the credit card last year, according to Johnson, neither he nor Mayo knew it was affiliated with a charity. Johnson said they only knew that Hicks had provided Guillory access to a card for Mayo's use. Johnson said he remembers Guillory escorting Mayo to a youth football game in which Hicks' son played last fall so Mayo could personally thank Hicks for arranging the credit for Guillory. Johnson said Mayo eventually grew suspicious about the purchases Guillory was making for him.

"He knew that there was something wrong with that situation; he just didn't know what it was," Johnson said. "He knew Rodney didn't have, like, great credit. He asked me what did I know about it."

Johnson said sometime in December, Mayo received an anonymous tip about the credit card and became so concerned that he convened a meeting in Venice Beach to discuss the card with Guillory and Johnson for fear of being seen or heard.

"He wanted to know what was the truth," Johnson said. "He said to Rodney, 'There's a lot going on here. What's real and what's not real? This can't all be made up.' And Rodney said that it was all made up, it was all fabricated, it was all a lie."

Johnson said that Mayo believed Guillory and when Johnson tried to bring up the topic a few days later, Mayo wanted to drop the matter.

"Rodney loves O.J. Let me say that," Johnson said. "And O.J. loves Rodney. But … Rodney doesn't always do things that are in the best of O.J.'s interest."

Johnson said there was never any discussion by Mayo or Guillory about whether they, along with Johnson, were possibly violating NCAA rules.

USC declined a request for an interview with Floyd, athletic director Mike Garrett or the school's compliance officer who reviewed Mayo's admission. But the school issued a statement that reads, in part: "The NCAA and the Pac-10 reviewed O.J. Mayo's amateur status before and during his enrollment at USC, and did not identify any amateurism violations. Mayo and USC fully cooperated in these investigations. The University investigated and reported a violation involving Mayo's receipt of tickets to a Denver Nuggets game from his friend Carmelo Anthony. Mayo's eligibility was reinstated after he made a charitable contribution in the amount of the value of the tickets."

As for Johnson, he said part of the reason he stopped hanging around Mayo's circle in March was because he was tired of being complicit in "some really sick things in regards to amateur sports." Still, Johnson doesn't blame Mayo for accepting gifts from Guillory.

"This is way bigger than some 'brand' and money and all of this stuff," Johnson said. "He played within the rules of the game, and this is the game. Runners, agents, shoe companies, other elements -- this is the game. … Once you're in the game, you're in the game. There's no turning back."

MWM
05-11-2008, 11:19 AM
Shocker.

JayBruce4HOF
05-11-2008, 11:20 AM
Which program is dirtier: USC Football or USC Basketball?

WVRed
05-11-2008, 11:23 AM
Which program is dirtier: USC Football or USC Basketball?

At the rate USC is going, I wouldn't be shocked if they got the death penalty before the end of the decade.

At least the football program has been established. Anytime somebody tries to pose a serious threat to the media darlings in gold and blue though, questions are going to be asked.

GoReds33
05-11-2008, 12:38 PM
He's gotten gifts from people like this since he entered high school. I'm still suspicous of the Hummer that his mom supposedly bought him years ago.

sonny
05-11-2008, 12:45 PM
He's gotten gifts from people like this since he entered high school. I'm still suspicous of the Hummer that his mom supposedly bought him years ago.

Wasn't that LeBron?

Joseph
05-11-2008, 12:55 PM
Raise your hand if you are surprised.

Reds4Life
05-11-2008, 01:07 PM
This happpens at every school that has a major basketball program, some are just better at hiding it than others.

guttle11
05-11-2008, 01:21 PM
At the rate USC is going, I wouldn't be shocked if they got the death penalty before the end of the decade.

At least the football program has been established. Anytime somebody tries to pose a serious threat to the media darlings in gold and blue though, questions are going to be asked.

I don't know about that. ESPN and the NCAA really have pretty much ignored the Reggie Bush stuff. It seems as if USC football has been above all suspicion since coming "back".

Reds4Life
05-11-2008, 01:25 PM
I don't know about that. ESPN and the NCAA really have pretty much ignored the Reggie Bush stuff. It seems as if USC football has been above all suspicion since coming "back".

The NCAA knows full well these programs are committing major violations. It's all about money, those big schools (be it football or basketball) make millions for the NCAA though TV contracts any marketing. They aren't going to touch their cash cows. Instead they drop the hammer on lesser programs for stupid crap, while the big boys get away with murder.

Welcome to the world of college sports.

guttle11
05-11-2008, 01:27 PM
The NCAA knows full well these programs are committing major violations. It's all about money, those big schools (be it football or basketball) make millions for the NCAA though TV contracts any marketing. They aren't going to touch their cash cows. Instead they drop the hammer on lesser programs for stupid crap, while the big boys get away with murder.

Welcome to the world of college sports.

Well, yeah. Might not be fair, but it's smart business. Don't bite the hand that feeds you. The minute USC appears to be regressing, they'll get hammered.

But, numbers and ratings show Ohio State is every bit as big across the country as USC, and they were all over the national media when Clarrett was accusing everyone of everything. And this was back when every OSU game was on some form of ESPN television. Even though nothing came of it, the stain of the coverage was pretty big for a couple of years. ESPN isn't even mentioning the USC allegations more than a small tidbit every few months, and they only get to show a few USC games a year.

GoReds33
05-11-2008, 07:39 PM
Wasn't that LeBron?IIRC, Mayo had a similar incident. You may be right though, because I do remember LeBron being in an incident like this.

cincinnati chili
05-11-2008, 08:54 PM
This happpens at every school that has a major basketball program, some are just better at hiding it than others.

Which is why I'll never understand the popularity of I-A football and high-profile Div. I basketball. They're basically pros, who aren't as good as pros. At least Eric Milton was up front about taking an institution's money.

The "student-athlete" and the "amateur" is a complete fiction at this level of competition. It's something I can't look past enough to become anything more than a casual college sports fan.

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 09:17 PM
Mayo took gifts while at USC

And bears poop in the woods...

Playadlc
05-11-2008, 10:23 PM
Which program is dirtier: USC Football or USC Basketball?

This really isn't about USC, it's about Mayo accepting payment from a representative of an agent. Is USC partly responsible for the actions? Yes, but they were not mentioned as paying Mayo. It was an agent hoping to secure him as a client when he went pro. I still think they should be penalized, though. If IU gets in trouble for a coach making too many phone calls for "lack of institutional control", then USC should get in trouble for this, when the guy who is allegedly paying Mayo had been caught before for the same thing and the staff knew he and Mayo had a relationship.

Highlifeman21
05-11-2008, 10:58 PM
This happpens at every school that has a major basketball program, some are just better at hiding it than others.

And let's not forget schools with major football programs, too.

I think with some athletes, they just don't care about hiding it.

Would it shock any of us to hear that maybe Tyler Hansborough, or that guard that was a Memphis (can't remember his name), or Michael Beasley, or any other big time college hoops player took gifts from schools during recruiting, or took gifts while being a "student athlete"?

All programs have dirt. The level of dirt just varies program to program.

Reds4Life
05-11-2008, 11:07 PM
And let's not forget schools with major football programs, too.

I think with some athletes, they just don't care about hiding it.

Would it shock any of us to hear that maybe Tyler Hansborough, or that guard that was a Memphis (can't remember his name), or Michael Beasley, or any other big time college hoops player took gifts from schools during recruiting, or took gifts while being a "student athlete"?

All programs have dirt. The level of dirt just varies program to program.

Honestly, I have no problem with it. If a coach buys a player dinner, it's a violation, but if the NCAA plasters their image all over the place to make millions, it's perfectly fine. Seems like a raw deal to me.

Highlifeman21
05-11-2008, 11:21 PM
Honestly, I have no problem with it. If a coach buys a player dinner, it's a violation, but if the NCAA plasters their image all over the place to make millions, it's perfectly fine. Seems like a raw deal to me.

You brought up a great point earlier about the NCAA not wanting to lose its cash cows.

The NCAA knows exactly how much it exploits the athletes of the big revenue sports. Only when the athletes feel that they are bigger than, or better than the NCAA, that's when the NCAA starts to care. Had Mo Clarett not tried to challenge the NCAA, they wouldn't have cared about him, but he did, so they did.

I'm sure the NCAA will do everything it can to sweep the Reggie Bush fiasco under the rug, and a year from now they'll have swept this Mayo situation under the rug. If they start busting all of their "student athletes", then eventually they'll lose their nest egg. As long as they continue to only bust a few players here and there, John Q Public gets the false sense that the NCAA does care about the integrity of amateur athletics, when it reality the occasional busts serve only as a show piece to protect their millions in generated revenue by the "student athletes".

The athletes are getting a raw deal. They should get paid, since they are pro athletes, based on the coin they generate for the NCAA.

Sea Ray
05-12-2008, 01:20 AM
The athletes are getting a raw deal. They should get paid, since they are pro athletes, based on the coin they generate for the NCAA.

You can't go there. You don't want to open that box. The problems you are creating are endless. Who gets paid? Sure the players that play for USC and OSU but what about the players on George Mason or Valparaiso?

The courts have already decided that which sport makes money has nothing to do with the benefits it receives. Due to Title 9 women's sports have to get the same benefits the men do even though we all know the money they bring in is totally different.

Does OJ Mayo get the same money as the 10th man on the bench?

Guys like Mayo and Reggie Bush can't be living it up while guys like Carson Palmer while at USC have to scrape by.

Student athletes do get the shaft but that's life. Pre-arbitration baseball players get screwed too but so what?

cincinnati chili
05-12-2008, 03:10 AM
The courts have already decided that which sport makes money has nothing to do with the benefits it receives. Due to Title 9 women's sports have to get the same benefits the men do even though we all know the money they bring in is totally different.


The courts decided that way because intercollegiate athletic opportunities (scholarship and non-scholarship) are educational opportunities, and Title IX prohibits disproportionate educational benefits to one gender. I've got no problem with that law. Women pay taxes. Women pay the same tuition to attend a university.

For those of you who like I-A football and D-I men's basketball, you could get around Title IX by pushing for a system where the league completely severed its ties with institutions of education. (Think junior hockey in Canada). You could have the same level of play, the same passion from fans in the community, but would eliminate this disingenuous notion that guys like O.J. Mayo are people like you and me who go to class and want to learn stuff.

I say pay them all. Blow it up.

The cost of paying players would be a loss of money for all of the non-revenue generating sports. That's why the NCAA fights professionalism.

O.J. Mayo is absolutely exploited by the current system of redistributionism in college athletics. Money that would go to Mayo in a free market is taken from Mayo and redistributed to non-revenue sports like men's baseball, women's swimming, men's lacrosse, women's crew, and to a much lesser extent the NCAA bureaucracy in Indianapolis.

GoReds33
05-12-2008, 08:34 AM
College players do get paid, just not much. Along with the scholarships comes usually about $1,000 a month to cover living expenses and stuff like that. IMO, that's all they should receive.

Jpup
05-12-2008, 09:07 AM
Which is why I'll never understand the popularity of I-A football and high-profile Div. I basketball. They're basically pros, who aren't as good as pros. At least Eric Milton was up front about taking an institution's money.

The "student-athlete" and the "amateur" is a complete fiction at this level of competition. It's something I can't look past enough to become anything more than a casual college sports fan.

:beerme:

Slyder
05-12-2008, 09:13 AM
Mayo's been taking gifts like this since before he went to Huntington High with Pat Patterson and Co. Randy Moss was given gifts back in freaking Junior High. Just like Reggie Bush. Its no different for any other supreme athlete that people think is a cash cow that they can ride to easy street, some are smart enough to ditch em when they grow up some arent (Pacman).

durl
05-12-2008, 10:16 AM
I blame the NBA. It should be shut down.

MWM
05-12-2008, 11:44 AM
This guy who has come forward to expose the whole thing is no better than the guys doing to exploiting of Mayo. He was complicit all along and once his feelings were hurt, he THEN decides to come forward and expose the whole thing. This is completely different than the steroids situation where guys came forward only after being threatened with severe penalty. But this guy is pretty low, IMO.

IslandRed
05-12-2008, 11:46 AM
Which is why I'll never understand the popularity of I-A football and high-profile Div. I basketball.

You have to remember that college football and basketball put down deep roots long before the NFL and NBA mattered, and that culture and those traditions are handed down just like the love of baseball. Lots of places don't have a hometown pro team to cheer for, but there are colleges everywhere.

It also helps that the games themselves still vary from the pro game just enough to hold interest on their own. There's absolutely nothing different about a Triple-A game and a major-league game except the quality of the players. But watching a college basketball game isn't just like watching the NBA, and college football has a different feel and more variety of offensive styles than does the NFL. Different strokes.

Roy Tucker
05-12-2008, 11:49 AM
I say pay them all. Blow it up.



Yep. I think it's a joke that colleges and the NCAA sign billion dollar contracts with television networks while the athletes are paid scholarship money.

And an interestling look at college scholarships...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/sports/10scholarships.html

fearofpopvol1
05-12-2008, 01:41 PM
This guy who has come forward to expose the whole thing is no better than the guys doing to exploiting of Mayo. He was complicit all along and once his feelings were hurt, he THEN decides to come forward and expose the whole thing. This is completely different than the steroids situation where guys came forward only after being threatened with severe penalty. But this guy is pretty low, IMO.

Gee, I didn't know committing wrong doing was okay. :rolleyes:

If you participate in something that is wrong (and OJ Mayo knew what he was doing was wrong), you gotta be prepared to accept the consequences. Does the guy who came forth look stupid? Yeah, but it doesn't mean he was wrong in coming forward and it doesn't mean OJ Mayo should be off the hook.

Chip R
05-12-2008, 02:01 PM
I don't think this will solve all the problems but I think it may solve many of them. I think they should just let kids go to the pros without having to pretend to be a student for 1-3 years.

cincinnati chili
05-12-2008, 03:08 PM
I don't think this will solve all the problems but I think it may solve many of them. I think they should just let kids go to the pros without having to pretend to be a student for 1-3 years.

Agreed, but the NBA has a very good $$$ reason not to do this. NCAA Div. I serves as a free development league. Contrast with major league baseball who - for the most part - has to pay handsomely to develop its players.

For this reason, I think the Maurice Clarett antitrust decision was wrongheaded. The NBA absolutely has monopoly power over top-tier professional basketball in (at least) the entire U.S. market. It's age/education restriction was a thinly-veiled restraint on trade, disguised as a legitimate business purpose.

cincinnati chili
05-12-2008, 03:15 PM
You have to remember that college football and basketball put down deep roots long before the NFL and NBA mattered, and that culture and those traditions are handed down just like the love of baseball. Lots of places don't have a hometown pro team to cheer for, but there are colleges everywhere.

It also helps that the games themselves still vary from the pro game just enough to hold interest on their own. There's absolutely nothing different about a Triple-A game and a major-league game except the quality of the players. But watching a college basketball game isn't just like watching the NBA, and college football has a different feel and more variety of offensive styles than does the NFL. Different strokes.

Fair enough. I love reading about the history of college football and the old rivalries, even involving teams (e.g Harvard, Army) that are not dominant football powers anymore.

I'm just not one to defend something solely on the basis of tradition. Tradition, to me, is a nice "plus factor" in an argument whether to maintain or squash the status quo. But I don't think it's a good sole reason to maintain something that has so many negatives.

MWM
05-12-2008, 03:28 PM
Gee, I didn't know committing wrong doing was okay. :rolleyes:

If you participate in something that is wrong (and OJ Mayo knew what he was doing was wrong), you gotta be prepared to accept the consequences. Does the guy who came forth look stupid? Yeah, but it doesn't mean he was wrong in coming forward and it doesn't mean OJ Mayo should be off the hook.

Yeah, I figured someone would probably come back with something suggesting I was OK with what Mayo did. Never said it, never implied it. Never said May should be off the hook. That's all you.

I was simply pointing out that this guy knew it was going on all along, but as long as he was invited to the party he didn't seem to mind. Once he was no longer part of the inner circle, he decided to come out to ESPN with the truth. He didn't just go to the NCAA with the evidence in an effort to "right the wrongdoings" of Mayo and Guillory. Nope, he's come out and tried to turn himself into some kind of hero. To me, this guy is pretty slimy as well.

dabvu2498
05-12-2008, 04:01 PM
To me, this guy is pretty slimy as well.

Absolutely, but he never pretended to be an "amateur" athlete.

WVRed
05-12-2008, 04:44 PM
I've seen Mayo play since his 7th and 8th grade years in middle school when he played in Kentucky. It is a shame, because there are a LOT of people who are taking advantage of him and getting in his ear. I honestly believe if his mother had control, she would have kept him in the Huntington area and he never would have went to Cincinnati for the three years there.

Before Rodney Guillory, there was Dwaine Barnes, who Mayo called a "grandfather". Barnes was OJ's AAU coach and for some reason the two have parted ways. Jeff Hall was OJ's coach while at Rose Hill, and there were times when Dwaine would be telling OJ what to do over Hall.

To be honest, I have a hard time figuring out OJ. I see the kid who was signing autographs for kids and enjoying himself while playing ball. Then I see the OJ who celebrates his last play in high school by flinging the ball into the stands in celebration. (I did not mention the ref incident because that was a flop) It really makes it hard for me to classify him.

I will make a prediction that I really hate making, but with all of the people that OJ associates with that constantly take advantage of him, it wouldnt surprise me if somebody ends up taking his life if things go awry. I hope I am wrong, but nothing really is convincing me otherwise.

Chip R
05-12-2008, 05:54 PM
Agreed, but the NBA has a very good $$$ reason not to do this. NCAA Div. I serves as a free development league. Contrast with major league baseball who - for the most part - has to pay handsomely to develop its players.

For this reason, I think the Maurice Clarett antitrust decision was wrongheaded. The NBA absolutely has monopoly power over top-tier professional basketball in (at least) the entire U.S. market. It's age/education restriction was a thinly-veiled restraint on trade, disguised as a legitimate business purpose.


Sure, but why 1 year? Why not 3 like football? They'd be getting a better developed player who is at least 21. Plus it weeds out the guys who are all hype and no substance or the guys who tear up a knee. If I'm David Stern, I see no reason why an 18 year old kid can't play in my league but a 19 year old kid can.

But that's beside the point. You'd almost like to have all the big time schools get into one association or level and just play each other. The players get paid some money and they have the option of going to class or not. You forget about the graduation rates and all the other jazz. If a kid wants a car to play at State U., you buy him a car. It'd be like a mini-NFL or NBA. You'd probably have to forget about conference affiliations for those sports but money talks and I'm sure new rivalries would develop. You think the networks wouldn't pay more to see Ohio St. vs. Southern Cal instead of Ohio St. vs. Akron? You think you couldn't charge more for tickets for a game like that?

Sea Ray
05-12-2008, 06:39 PM
But that's beside the point. You'd almost like to have all the big time schools get into one association or level and just play each other. The players get paid some money and they have the option of going to class or not. You forget about the graduation rates and all the other jazz. If a kid wants a car to play at State U., you buy him a car. It'd be like a mini-NFL or NBA. You'd probably have to forget about conference affiliations for those sports but money talks and I'm sure new rivalries would develop. You think the networks wouldn't pay more to see Ohio St. vs. Southern Cal instead of Ohio St. vs. Akron? You think you couldn't charge more for tickets for a game like that?


Then you'll have a really screwed up system of haves and have nots. Schools like OSU, ND and USC will dominate. I doubt schools like Wisconsin or Oregon could compete. Here in Cincinnati, Xavier would be toast. I agree the system isn't perfect but I haven't heard of a better way to do it.

Chip R
05-12-2008, 07:19 PM
Then you'll have a really screwed up system of haves and have nots. Schools like OSU, ND and USC will dominate. I doubt schools like Wisconsin or Oregon could compete. Here in Cincinnati, Xavier would be toast. I agree the system isn't perfect but I haven't heard of a better way to do it.


That's true but perhaps that's as it should be. Survival of the fittest and all that. Of course there's no reason for the Xaviers or Wisconsins or Oregons of the world to not be able to compete on their own level such as a Mt. Union or Dayton or an Eastern Kentucky competes on their own levels.

The New England Patriots don't schedule games against a semi-pro team so why should a major program like Michigan schedule Appalachian State? Yeah, ASU beat them but other than a nice payday for ASU, what purpose did it serve? The loss really didn't affect Michigan since they went to the Rose Bowl anyway.

This quasi-professional league of schools is something that I believe would work for several years. But I believe that ultimately it will fail. If USC offers a player a car, tOSU can offer a guy 2 cars and Miami of Florida can offer him his own yacht. Eventually, schools will not be able to compete against the major powerhouses and ultimately there will be only a few schools that can financially afford to do that. So why propose it, you ask. Sometimes to fix something, you have to destroy it first. If there are only 3-4 mega-teams they can't play each other all the time. They will eventually have to go down to that lower level and abide by their rules which are going to be stricter. If the kids don't think they can be a scholar-athlets, they can go to the pros and try their luck.

Betterread
05-13-2008, 01:01 AM
4 of the 5 All-NBA players went straight from HS to the NBA.
Why did the NBA make the rule that you have to go to college for one year?
Mayo has been considered NBA material for years. It was really obvious that his interest in being a collegiate athlete was zero. He didn't think about how his decisions affected his school - so what. College sports have used ballplayers to make tremendous amounts of money over the years. Mayo only went to college because the NBA said he couldn't go pro out of HS.

Redsfaithful
05-13-2008, 02:44 AM
The loss really didn't affect Michigan since they went to the Rose Bowl anyway.

I imagine this would be news to Illinois. And Florida for that matter.

WVRed
05-13-2008, 10:57 AM
4 of the 5 All-NBA players went straight from HS to the NBA.
Why did the NBA make the rule that you have to go to college for one year?
Mayo has been considered NBA material for years. It was really obvious that his interest in being a collegiate athlete was zero. He didn't think about how his decisions affected his school - so what. College sports have used ballplayers to make tremendous amounts of money over the years. Mayo only went to college because the NBA said he couldn't go pro out of HS.

This is just my opinion, but id like to see the NBA adopt something similar to MLB. A player is automatically eligible to be drafted out of high school regardless of whether he declares or not. They can then decide whether or not to attend college or play in the NBA. If they go the college route, they have to stay until their junior year.

Chip R
05-13-2008, 11:56 AM
I imagine this would be news to Illinois. And Florida for that matter.

:oops::redface:

flyer85
05-13-2008, 02:25 PM
Why did the NBA make the rule that you have to go to college for one year? gives these guys a chance to make a name before finding their way to an NBA bench. The NBA let's the NCAA market their future product(for a year) in a way the NBA can't because most of the young guys needs a few years before they are ready to contribute.

Now guys like Rose, Love, Gordon, etc are well known to fans as they enter the league.

MasonBuzz3
05-13-2008, 03:15 PM
This is just my opinion, but id like to see the NBA adopt something similar to MLB. A player is automatically eligible to be drafted out of high school regardless of whether he declares or not. They can then decide whether or not to attend college or play in the NBA. If they go the college route, they have to stay until their junior year.

This would be different in professional basketball. There is really no minor league system, i know the D-League, but as of right now thats not similar to the minors. In all reality, how many kids that got drafted out of HS would opt to go to college for three years in basketball? With a two round draft, I would say very few

George Foster
05-13-2008, 11:51 PM
I knew he was on someone's payroll when he choice USC without being seriously recruited by them. Why would the best high school prospect in the country choose USC?

fearofpopvol1
05-14-2008, 01:57 AM
Very interesting! I wonder what (if anything) will happen. It begs the question to me...why is this situation supposedly being looked at closely while the Reggie Bush debacle was swept under the rug? Is it because it was further in the past and Mayo hasn't been drafted yet?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3394800


HOUSTON -- Saying the NCAA has "new information," president Myles Brand promised to investigate former Southern California basketball star O.J. Mayo, who allegedly received thousands of dollars in gifts from money given to an event promoter by a sports agency.

On Sunday, ESPN reported that Bill Duffy Associates provided Rodney Guillory with about $200,000 before Mayo arrived at USC. Louis Johnson, a former associate of Mayo's, told "Outside the Lines" that Mayo received about $30,000 and other benefits from Guillory while in high school and during his one season at USC.

Mayo declared for the NBA draft after the season and hired BDA Sports' Calvin Andrews as his agent.

Brand, speaking Tuesday in Houston to kick off this week's Division II National Championships Festival, said that "our enforcement division has new information" about Mayo's case "and as a matter of fact, when we have new information on any case, we will investigate."

He would not comment further on the specifics of Mayo's case.

Duffy denied any illegal activity involving Mayo on Monday, but USC acknowledged that the school is working with the NCAA and the Pac-10 "in a cooperative investigation to review these new allegations."

NCAA rules prohibit giving college athletes money or other gifts. Brand said the schools have more of a direct obligation than the NCAA to shield their athletes from sports agents, boosters and other outsiders.

"We are not the cops on the corner," Brand said. "The schools themselves have the responsibility to follow the rules and that means, and includes, separating agents from interfering with student-athletes."

At the Final Four last month, Brand and NBA commissioner David Stern announced a cooperative effort to improve areas of youth basketball. Brand said Tuesday that one of the main initiatives of the partnership will focus on "revising recruiting and other activities."

"Pre-collegiate basketball is something we definitely need to address," he said. "We're really focused on changing that environment. Yes, I am concerned about it."

Brand said he has no say on whether the NBA will raise its age limit when the current collective bargaining agreement expires in 2011. Currently, the league's minimum age is 19. Mayo turned 20 in November and joined the growing number of players who play one season in college and bolt for the pros. Memphis star Derrick Rose and Kansas State's Michael Beasley also declared for the draft after their freshman seasons.

Brand would like to see the NBA require players to stay in school for "two, three or four years," but says he's powerless to sway any decision.

"The NCAA has no ability to influence, in any way, the age rule," he said. "So any age limitation rules, the 19-year-olds who are so-called "one and done," are the result of bargaining negotiation between the NBA and the players' association. The NCAA was not involved in any way in that bargaining in setting up the rule. Only the NBA management and the players association set those rules."

Brand said he won't be afraid to sanction USC or any other high-profile school caught in violation of NCAA rules. He admitted that punishing the schools sometimes is not enough to deter agents and other outsiders from influencing players with cash, gifts or other benefits.

"This is not acceptable behavior and on occasion, it's illegal," Brand said. "You get thrown in jail if you rob a bank, but people keep robbing banks. The fact of the matter is these kinds of activities are unacceptable, they are unfortunate. We expect the schools to enforce the rules and protect our student-athletes."

Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press

IslandRed
05-14-2008, 11:39 AM
Very interesting! I wonder what (if anything) will happen. It begs the question to me...why is this situation supposedly being looked at closely while the Reggie Bush debacle was swept under the rug? Is it because it was further in the past and Mayo hasn't been drafted yet?

Here's how I look at it: The Reggie Bush situation, and numerous similar situations at other schools in the last 15 years or so, are primarily cases of agents getting to kids after they're already in college and already a star. The player is breaking the rules, yes, he's not supposed to be getting extra benefits. But it's not really providing a competitive advantage to the school. To the contrary, the agent's actions will expose the school to possible sanctions, negative publicity and, in many cases, losing the player to the pros before he otherwise might have gone. There's no upside to the school to have agents hanging around messing with the kids, so as long as they're not caught sweeping things under the rug, the school usually won't face institutional-control sanctions. That's in contrast to the rogue booster, who is also providing extra benefits but is working on the school's behalf directly or indirectly.

Now, the Mayo case: What's interesting about that is because the would-be agent allegedly had hooks in Mayo pre-college, and being L.A.-based, it raises the question of whether he steered Mayo to USC and, if he did, if USC had any knowledge or involvement. That's the hook the NCAA is looking for, I imagine.

Chip R
05-14-2008, 12:12 PM
Here's how I look at it: The Reggie Bush situation, and numerous similar situations at other schools in the last 15 years or so, are primarily cases of agents getting to kids after they're already in college and already a star. The player is breaking the rules, yes, he's not supposed to be getting extra benefits. But it's not really providing a competitive advantage to the school. To the contrary, the agent's actions will expose the school to possible sanctions, negative publicity and, in many cases, losing the player to the pros before he otherwise might have gone. There's no upside to the school to have agents hanging around messing with the kids, so as long as they're not caught sweeping things under the rug, the school usually won't face institutional-control sanctions. That's in contrast to the rogue booster, who is also providing extra benefits but is working on the school's behalf directly or indirectly.

Now, the Mayo case: What's interesting about that is because the would-be agent allegedly had hooks in Mayo pre-college, and being L.A.-based, it raises the question of whether he steered Mayo to USC and, if he did, if USC had any knowledge or involvement. That's the hook the NCAA is looking for, I imagine.


The upside to agents being quasi-affiliated with schools is, as you said in your 2nd paragraph, the athlete winds up at that school because that agent can provide him with all those goodies. The school isn't doing anything openly with that agent but if a kid like Mayo has the opportunity to go to USC, which just happens to be in the same city as where that agent resides, or to a school like UC, where that agent doesn't live you have to believe he's going to pick USC. Of course where a man chooses to live isn't USC's problem. It's not exactly like they can move to Fresno. But, much like Sam Gilbert at UCLA, an agent or a booster can heavily influence where a kid will go to school. I think, in the past, the NCAA hasn't made the distinction between a booster offering a kid stuff to go to school and the school giving the kid extra benefits. The only difference may be - between a booster and an agent - is that a booster is usually an alum of the school while the agent isn't.

bucksfan2
05-14-2008, 03:35 PM
4 of the 5 All-NBA players went straight from HS to the NBA.
Why did the NBA make the rule that you have to go to college for one year?
Mayo has been considered NBA material for years. It was really obvious that his interest in being a collegiate athlete was zero. He didn't think about how his decisions affected his school - so what. College sports have used ballplayers to make tremendous amounts of money over the years. Mayo only went to college because the NBA said he couldn't go pro out of HS.

I agree with you that some if not most of the best players in the game went straight out of HS to the NBA. The problem that I have with that is the NBA game is so void of fundamentals. The game has great athletes that can do amazing things but the problem is that most have gotten by without learning the most basic fundamentals.

Another problem with the HS to Pro route is that very few pepole are ready to step in and make an impact right away. It takes time and development to bring a HS kid to the NBA level. The NBA draft should be a draft where the worst teams get the "impact" player but in reality the player they take may be a year or so away from playing at that top level.

I like the plan that Dickie V proposes all the time. You have a group of people who evaluate the players coming out of HS. You make a decisions based upon where they would go in the draft, physical abilities, etc. and whether they can enter the draft if they choose to do so. If a player doesn't choose to do so he is in college for two years minimum. OJ Mayo never belonged in college but at the same time colleges don't deserve to see one and done players.

Chip R
05-14-2008, 04:18 PM
I agree with you that some if not most of the best players in the game went straight out of HS to the NBA. The problem that I have with that is the NBA game is so void of fundamentals. The game has great athletes that can do amazing things but the problem is that most have gotten by without learning the most basic fundamentals.

Another problem with the HS to Pro route is that very few pepole are ready to step in and make an impact right away. It takes time and development to bring a HS kid to the NBA level. The NBA draft should be a draft where the worst teams get the "impact" player but in reality the player they take may be a year or so away from playing at that top level.

I like the plan that Dickie V proposes all the time. You have a group of people who evaluate the players coming out of HS. You make a decisions based upon where they would go in the draft, physical abilities, etc. and whether they can enter the draft if they choose to do so. If a player doesn't choose to do so he is in college for two years minimum. OJ Mayo never belonged in college but at the same time colleges don't deserve to see one and done players.


Your problem isn't with the NBA, it's with the high schools and colleges the players attended. It's like complaining about the Reds lack of fundamentals. It's not the Reds' job to teach their players fundamentals, it's the minor league coaches' jobs.

While it's true that many HS kids aren't ready to make an impact in the pros, that should be their decision. If they don't make it, there are other options where they can play basketball and make money. I would also think that the NCAA may want to allow kids the option to go to college who declare for the draft out of HS and either aren't drafted or get cut. Maybe they have to walk on or redshirt a year so the scholarship situation straightens out. Then, much like the rule in baseball, they need to stay 3 years.

I like Vitale but he's full of it on this matter. Why should these people get to decide someone else's future? Who are these people and what are their qualifications? Let's say someone like Roy Williams is a part of this group and he has to make a decision on some kid who's wavering between Duke and the pros. What do you think Roy is going to decide even if the kid isn't ready for the pros? What if Vitale is in this group? It would be to his and his employer's benefit to have the best players possible in college since ESPN does more college games than NBA games.

fearofpopvol1
05-14-2008, 05:19 PM
I like Vitale but he's full of it on this matter. Why should these people get to decide someone else's future? Who are these people and what are their qualifications? Let's say someone like Roy Williams is a part of this group and he has to make a decision on some kid who's wavering between Duke and the pros. What do you think Roy is going to decide even if the kid isn't ready for the pros? What if Vitale is in this group? It would be to his and his employer's benefit to have the best players possible in college since ESPN does more college games than NBA games.

Do you have a problem with the NFL's 3 year rule then?

Chip R
05-14-2008, 05:37 PM
Do you have a problem with the NFL's 3 year rule then?


I think if a kid believes he can play in the NFL or NBA out of HS, then he should give it the old college try, no pun intended.

WVRed
05-14-2008, 06:43 PM
Do you have a problem with the NFL's 3 year rule then?

I think the NFL could enforce it even without a three year rule.

Take Terrelle Pryor for example. If TP decided to declare for the NFL Draft straight out of high school, he likely would have had as much chance of success as a player drafted in the 7th round. The maturity level of a player coming out of high school versus three years is a big difference. In the NBA, you can stash a Tracy McGrady or Kobe Bryant on the bench until they learn the sets and are ready, the NFL doesn't provide that luxury.

Slyder
05-15-2008, 12:41 AM
I think the NFL could enforce it even without a three year rule.

Take Terrelle Pryor for example. If TP decided to declare for the NFL Draft straight out of high school, he likely would have had as much chance of success as a player drafted in the 7th round. The maturity level of a player coming out of high school versus three years is a big difference. In the NBA, you can stash a Tracy McGrady or Kobe Bryant on the bench until they learn the sets and are ready, the NFL doesn't provide that luxury.

Also your body isnt mature and developed enough at 18-19 to make the jump to the NFL where Everyone is fast, big, strong, and hits like a truck. The NFL can get away with the 3-yr wait because an 18-19 yr old guy would get killed out there vs most of the NFL.

fearofpopvol1
05-16-2008, 02:01 AM
I just don't really buy into that. It's practical, but why should it be allowed in 1 professional sport and not another? At the end of the day, it's the teams that are drafting the players. They can elect to NOT draft those players.

*BaseClogger*
05-16-2008, 02:19 AM
the NFL would need a farm system for the HS player jump to be realistic...

puca
05-16-2008, 11:46 AM
The NBA and NFL should fund their own developmental leagues and the NCAA should get out of that business entirely. Give those kids that want to get paid in cold hard cash, instead of an education, while they train for the NFL/NBA a chance to do just that.

Chip R
05-16-2008, 11:53 AM
The NBA and NFL should fund their own developmental leagues and the NCAA should get out of that business entirely. Give those kids that want to get paid in cold hard cash, instead of an education, while they train for the NFL/NBA a chance to do just that.


I can dig that and the NBA already has a developmental league. Perhaps the NFL can get with Mark Cuban and use that football league he's been yammering about as a developmental league. Between the NFL and Cuban, they could afford to run it at a loss for years.