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View Full Version : 5/11/08 Lineup - Votto 2nd



Screwball
05-11-2008, 12:09 PM
Ryan Freel cf
Joey Votto 1b
Ken Griffey Jr. rf
Brandon Phillips 2b
Edwin Encarnacion 3b
Adam Dunn lf
Jeff Keppinger ss
Paul Bako c
Johnny Cueto p

Screwball
05-11-2008, 12:12 PM
D'oh, I meant '08.

redsrule2500
05-11-2008, 12:15 PM
nice...good to see freel in leadoff spot! griff still needs to drop though.

BCubb2003
05-11-2008, 12:15 PM
D'oh, I meant '08.

Yep, we're in trouble if that's the '09 lineup.

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 12:15 PM
He's not really getting any closer to "the anwser."

guttle11
05-11-2008, 12:18 PM
He's not really getting any closer to "the anwser."

I don't know, rearrange 4-5-6 and I think he's extremely close.

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 12:20 PM
I don't know, rearrange 4-5-6 and I think he's extremely close.

Not that I would go L-R-L-R-L-R etc... but that would be three LH hitters in a row...

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 12:22 PM
Because this hasn't been done a thousand times before, but BC's up-to-the-minute lineup (vR):

Keppinger
Freel
Dunn
Encarnacion
Votto
Griffey
Phillips
Bako

guttle11
05-11-2008, 12:24 PM
Not that I would go L-R-L-R-L-R etc... but that would be three LH hitters in a row...

Should have clarified. I'd go Encarnacion, Dunn, Phillips at 4-5-6. EE surrounded by Griff and Dunn could be flat out scary.

Kc61
05-11-2008, 12:30 PM
Hard to make a good lineup against a lefty pitcher with so many lefty hitters in the lineup. Shouldn't Ross be in there today?

With so few righty bats in there, Dusty's lineup is focused on spreading around the few (four) righty bats against Perez.

WVRedsFan
05-11-2008, 12:44 PM
Hard to make a good lineup against a lefty pitcher with so many lefty hitters in the lineup. Shouldn't Ross be in there today?

With so few righty bats in there, Dusty's lineup is focused on spreading around the few (four) righty bats against Perez.

I suppose at this point, Dusty figures that Ross won't hit anyway, so you might as well go with a catcher who might hit and one who handles the young pitchers well.

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 12:48 PM
Dave Ross career vL (375 PA): .235/.307/.491

reds44
05-11-2008, 12:51 PM
If he just flipped Junior and Dunn there wouldn't be that much too complain about in that lineup.

RedsManRick
05-11-2008, 12:53 PM
And yet he still buries Dunn.... It's not news, but Dusty really is clueless when it comes to OBP, isn't he? I'm pretty sure he just ignores walks entirely. They are some random event due to bad pitching, not something you can count on and have aid your offense.

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 12:58 PM
If he just flipped Junior and Dunn there wouldn't be that much too complain about in that lineup.

Pretty much agree, except Phillips cleanup...

Screwball
05-11-2008, 12:58 PM
Pretty much agree, except Phillips cleanup...

I like it against LHP.

mth123
05-11-2008, 01:00 PM
I suppose at this point, Dusty figures that Ross won't hit anyway, so you might as well go with a catcher who might hit and one who handles the young pitchers well.

I agree but it makes one wonder about Ross even being on the team. If Ross:

1. Isn't good enough defensively to handle Cueto and Volquez then he must have little defensive value IMO.

2. If his RH power isn't persuasuve enough to get him in there against a LHP then his offense is completely useless IMO.

Conclusion. Little defensive value + completely useless offense = waste of a roster spot. I say DL him and let him work with the young pitchers on the side to see if he may become trustworthy for an actual in game situation at some point this year and call up Andy Phillips to be the RH power bat for the bench. Ross just doesn't do enough well to be a major league player at this point and Javy is probably a better bench player.

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 01:02 PM
I like it against LHP.

Oh yeah, facing a lefty today. Forgot. :) My lineup earlier in the thread was vR...

Falls City Beer
05-11-2008, 01:06 PM
Dusty's problem isn't that he doesn't understand walks or OBP, it's that he overvalues certain players based on history (e.g. Phillips, Griffey). But then, Dusty's options are limited. Though the 1-2 are decent OB options.

The smart move would be to bat Griffey 8th (he's basically hitting like a poor-hitting catcher, and moves like one on the bases), Ross 7th, Phillips 6th, Kepp 5th, Enc. 4th, Dunn 3rd, Votto 2nd, Freel 1st.

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 01:08 PM
I see Freel, Votto, Dunn, Encarnacion, and Kepp as "decent OB options."

Falls City Beer
05-11-2008, 01:12 PM
I see Freel, Votto, Dunn, Encarnacion, and Kepp as "decent OB options."

I like the mix of OB and power a bit lower in the lineup--no higher than 3rd.

HokieRed
05-11-2008, 01:16 PM
Kepp should be in 2 spot.

Falls City Beer
05-11-2008, 01:24 PM
Kepp should be in 2 spot.

I don't mind Kepp there either--or even the leadoff spot. But I also don't mind contact guys in the 6th/5th spots.

Matt700wlw
05-11-2008, 01:25 PM
They need more contact guys

boognish
05-11-2008, 02:01 PM
I like the mix of OB and power a bit lower in the lineup--no higher than 3rd.

By a similar token, how do you like hitting a non-pitcher ninth? In theory, it lets power options in the 2-3-4 holes hit with more runners on base. It is where I would like to see Hairston when he gets spot starts.

Of course, Baker double switches often enough that a position player bats ninth fairly often anyhow, and he has deficiencies as far as batting OBP/power options at the top of the lineup.

Spring~Fields
05-11-2008, 02:29 PM
Season - OBP SLG OPS
Adam Dunn lf .376 .429 .805
Paul Bako c .375 .549 .927
Joey Votto 1b .352 .566 .918
Edwin Encarnacion 3b .366 .520 .887
Ryan Freel cf .346 .375 .721
Jeff Keppinger ss .338 .389 .727
Brandon Phillips 2b .322 .518 .840
Ken Griffey Jr. rf .317 .377 .694

Last 7 - OBP SLG OPS
Joey Votto 1b .478 .889 1.367
Jeff Keppinger ss .450 .421 .871
Paul Bako c .444 .824 1.268
Adam Dunn lf .381 .667 1.048
Brandon Phillips 2b .364 .667 1.030
Ken Griffey Jr. rf .357 .370 .728
Ryan Freel cf .333 .313 .646
Edwin Encarnacion 3b .259 .261 .520

RedsManRick
05-11-2008, 02:56 PM
Season OBP SLG OPS
Adam Dunn lf .376 .429 .805
Paul Bako c .375 .549 .927
Joey Votto 1b .352 .566 .918
Edwin Encarnacion 3b .366 .520 .887
Ryan Freel cf .346 .375 .721
Jeff Keppinger ss .338 .389 .727
Brandon Phillips 2b .322 .518 .840
Ken Griffey Jr. rf .317 .377 .694

Last 7 OBP SLG OPS
Joey Votto 1b .478 .889 1.367
Jeff Keppinger ss .450 .421 .871
Paul Bako c .444 .824 1.268
Adam Dunn lf .381 .667 1.048
Brandon Phillips 2b .364 .667 1.030
Ken Griffey Jr. rf .357 .370 .728
Ryan Freel cf .333 .313 .646
Edwin Encarnacion 3b .259 .261 .520

Format in textpad and then use [ code ] and [ / code] tags.

Spring~Fields
05-11-2008, 03:01 PM
Format in textpad and then use [ code ] and [ / code] tags.

I tried notepad, saving in txt etc. I was batting lower than a Patterson OBP. :(

The last one I just copied and pasted from word and did not use tags

I had to align it after I put it in the VB format and code.

Tony Cloninger
05-11-2008, 03:52 PM
Whatever Dunn has done against LHP in prior years is not working out too much this year....If Phillips needs to bat 6th or lower against RHP, and he should, then Dunn should really be no higher than 5th against LHP up to this point this year.

CTA513
05-11-2008, 04:19 PM
Interesting 9th inning as the Reds give up an out by batting out of order.


:all_cohol

Matt700wlw
05-11-2008, 04:24 PM
So, not only can't they hit, they can't even lineup correctly. Wonderful.

CTA513
05-11-2008, 04:31 PM
So, not only can't they hit, they can't even lineup correctly. Wonderful.

Patterson can make outs without even batting.

:p:

guttle11
05-11-2008, 04:49 PM
So, not only can't they hit, they can't even lineup correctly. Wonderful.

Look at the bright side, Ross was 1 for 2 today.

Ron Madden
05-11-2008, 04:56 PM
I remember Dusty Bakers Cubs batted out of order in a game against the Reds in 04 or 05.

Kc61
05-11-2008, 05:11 PM
For all you fans of "lefty/righty doesn't matter" the Reds started four lefty hitters against Perez today, Votto, Griffey, Dunn and Bako. They combined for no base hits. None.

The Reds desperately need to become more of a right handed offensive team. Lefties are too susceptible to lefty pitching.

Falls City Beer
05-11-2008, 05:13 PM
For all you fans of "lefty/righty doesn't matter" the Reds started four lefty hitters against Perez today, Votto, Griffey, Dunn and Bako. They combined for no base hits. None.

The Reds desperately need to become more of a right handed offensive team. Lefties are too susceptible to lefty pitching.

Righties would help. Better hitters would help more.

Kc61
05-11-2008, 05:32 PM
Righties would help. Better hitters would help more.

Yes, I think the Reds lack top hitters. I think they have exactly none of those right now. I've said it many times only to be challenged on that statement, but I stand on my view that when Jay Bruce comes up he will become the only actual -- or potential -- top hitter on the team.

Lefty hitters don't face lefty pitching very much. They tend not to be proficient against lefty pitching. Righty hitters do face righty pitching quite a bit. So if I'm looking for hitters to go against all pitching, I prefer a righty based lineup.

I'm also a believer in platooning. Star hitters should not platoon. Starting players who play superb defense should usually not platoon. But when a player is nothing special, particularly a left handed hitter, I would use him against "opposite side" pitchers only. Of course, you have to plan for this and have the guys to use in these platoons.

I think the Reds use the wrong lineups against lefties. Today they had four lefty hitters against Perez, including Griffey who had a .494 OPS against lefty pitching going in. Dunn's was .705.

I'm sure I will continue to be told it doesn't matter. It does.

Spring~Fields
05-11-2008, 07:35 PM
Yes the Reds need better hitters.

I think a part of this comes under the manager not placing players in the best position to succeed. Votto 2, Griffey 3 instead of some right handed bats getting the more AB against Perez who is snuffing out LH bats.

As you pointed out the left handed bats had 0 hits and 2 BB by Griffey, the rest came from the right handed bats.

Oliver Perez
vs. Left .133 .316 .233 .549
vs. Right .294 .390 .392 .782

fearofpopvol1
05-11-2008, 08:48 PM
And yet he still buries Dunn.... It's not news, but Dusty really is clueless when it comes to OBP, isn't he? I'm pretty sure he just ignores walks entirely. They are some random event due to bad pitching, not something you can count on and have aid your offense.

Clearly, but isn't he also ignoring batting average? It's not like Patterson is posting a high one, despite typically batting 1st.

During the game on Saturday, Keith Hernandez said he actually asked Dusty about why he keeps batting Dunn so low and Dusty told him that Dunn has told him that he would prefer to bat 2nd, but Dusty thinks because of his power, he's not suited to bat that low.

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 08:52 PM
During the game on Saturday, Keith Hernandez said he actually asked Dusty about why he keeps batting Dunn so low and Dusty told him that Dunn has told him that he would prefer to bat 2nd, but Dusty thinks because of his power, he's not suited to bat that low.

:bang:

SMcGavin
05-11-2008, 08:59 PM
During the game on Saturday, Keith Hernandez said he actually asked Dusty about why he keeps batting Dunn so low and Dusty told him that Dunn has told him that he would prefer to bat 2nd, but Dusty thinks because of his power, he's not suited to bat that low.

Good for Dunn. But with Dusty continually batting Patterson first I think the mission to get Dunn second is pretty hopeless.

Raisor
05-11-2008, 09:02 PM
During the game on Saturday, Keith Hernandez said he actually asked Dusty about why he keeps batting Dunn so low and Dusty told him that Dunn has told him that he would prefer to bat 2nd, but Dusty thinks because of his power, he's not suited to bat that low.



Time to play "Name That Player!"

In the 2-slot

2330 TPA, .382/.567/.948

boognish
05-11-2008, 09:16 PM
Time to play "Name That Player!"

In the 2-slot

2330 TPA, .382/.567/.948

Jerry Hairston, Jr's next 2330 PA? Ryan Freel's?

Raisor
05-11-2008, 09:38 PM
Jerry Hairston, Jr's next 2330 PA? Ryan Freel's?

While it's POSSIBLE, I suppose, that's not the answer I was looking for.


Here's a hint.

He's a current Major League player.

cincrazy
05-11-2008, 09:46 PM
I agree with you... but only to a point. I'd throw Votto into the mix with Bruce. Votto's about a pure as hitter as I've seen wear a Reds uniform in my 22 years.

[QUOTE=Kc61;1627272]Yes, I think the Reds lack top hitters. I think they have exactly none of those right now. I've said it many times only to be challenged on that statement, but I stand on my view that when Jay Bruce comes up he will become the only actual -- or potential -- top hitter on the team.

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 10:19 PM
Time to play "Name That Player!"

In the 2-slot

2330 TPA, .382/.567/.948

ARod

Raisor
05-11-2008, 10:32 PM
ARod

You are correct sir.

You win: nothing, sorry.