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*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 08:03 PM
Assuming Harang, Volquez, Cueto, and Arroyo remain, who should be the Reds 5th starting pitcher?

fearofpopvol1
05-11-2008, 08:26 PM
Where's the Tom Shearn option??

KronoRed
05-11-2008, 09:05 PM
N/A, go with 4 starters.

Raisor
05-11-2008, 09:07 PM
You know, I think I'd give Jeremy Affeldt a shot. He's been throwing pretty well.

reds44
05-11-2008, 09:10 PM
*Votes Daryl Thompson*

*Ducks*

oneupper
05-11-2008, 09:20 PM
Open audition at this point. I agree with Raisor that Affledt has earned a shot.

redsfan30
05-11-2008, 09:23 PM
We saw what Affeldt did as a starter in Spring Training. We've seen what he's capable of in the bullpen.

Keep him there.

marcshoe
05-11-2008, 09:24 PM
iirc he got knocked around in the bullpen in Spring Training as well, at least at first. It may be a matter of him getting straightened out instead of his switching roles.

Then again, it might not--but it's worth checking out, given the other options.

Raisor
05-11-2008, 09:25 PM
We saw what Affeldt did as a starter in Spring Training. We've seen what he's capable of in the bullpen.

Keep him there.

he had, what, two starts in spring training?

The rotation is in shambles right now. I'm not ready to bring up Homer, so there really isn't many other options.

11larkin11
05-11-2008, 10:00 PM
Uhh, hows Bobby Livingston coming along?

AmarilloRed
05-11-2008, 10:15 PM
Bailey and Thompson aren't ready yet
Belisle and Fogg can't get major league hitters out
Jeremy Affeldt is a reliever
My vote goes to Justin Lehr for lack of a better option
He has earned his shot at the starting rotation

Danny Serafini
05-11-2008, 10:48 PM
My gut tells me Lehr would probably get eaten up, yet he's still the best choice. Bailey still needs a little work, and I do not want to see Thompson yanked up from AA. Between Bailey and Cueto we've seen enough recently about what happens when you bring up a pitcher too soon. Affeldt is a reliever, period. We know what Belisle and Fogg will do, and it's not what the team needs.

Falls City Beer
05-11-2008, 10:52 PM
"So much pitching depth on this team." Remember that zinger? :p:

*BaseClogger*
05-11-2008, 11:00 PM
I'm thinking Belisle deserves a few more starts before anything is changed. IF at that point he is still ineffective (need to see an increase in strikeouts) I would give Justin Lehr a shot. Homer Bailey needs to dominate AAA before he gets called up. No way do I move Affeldt out of the pen, or rush Daryl Thompson. I too would like to know how Bobby Livingston is progressing...

Spring~Fields
05-12-2008, 12:12 AM
Though I would not expect anything special from these two, I would bring up the older two pitchers (31), Lehr and Shearn to eat some innings, let Cueto and Belisle practice pitching in AAA instead of practicing at this level. I just don’t see how letting Cueto and Belisle get pounded helps anything. Maybe it (AAA) would polish Belisle up as a trading throw in later, if he has options or the DL trick, he looks ill to me, hitatosisitus is a serious malady for pitchers.

Maybe the older types could execute for Pole and snag a couple wins here and there until Jocketty has a chance to find better.

Jpup
05-12-2008, 06:46 AM
Though I would not expect anything special from these two, I would bring up the older two pitchers (31), Lehr and Shearn to eat some innings, let Cueto and Belisle practice pitching in AAA instead of practicing at this level. I just donít see how letting Cueto and Belisle get pounded helps anything. Maybe it (AAA) would polish Belisle up as a trading throw in later, if he has options or the DL trick, he looks ill to me, hitatosisitus is a serious malady for pitchers.

Maybe the older types could execute for Pole and snag a couple wins here and there until Jocketty has a chance to find better.

I think I was the only one on this board to openly question Cueto's command and ability to pitch at the major league level before the season. I think many are now. His K rate is still very good, but he could use some AAA.

I would bring up Lehr and let Belisle continue to work in the 5 slot for a couple months.

REDREAD
05-12-2008, 10:16 AM
IMO, there's no point in using Shearn or someone like that.

I think Belisle is a lost cause, but Jocketty should continue to start him until he is also convinced that Belisle is not a starting pitcher. The worst thing that can happen is that the team enters 2009 thinking that Belisle is a legitimate candidate for the rotation.

As soon as possible, the Reds need to put Belisle in the bullpen and see if he can contribute there. I'm not sure he'll be able to contribute there enough to justify his 2nd year arb salary, but we need to find out.

Affedlt has pitched well, but the bullpen does not have the depth to absorb moving him into the rotation. Historically, he's been good in the pen, and bad in the rotation. I see no need to repeat the experiment of putting him in the rotation. The guy is only on a one year contract, so let's maximize his short term value by leaving him in the pen. It's also important to maintain the strength of the pen to leverage the good pitching performances we do get from the starting pitchers.

Thus, by the process of elimination, I picked Fogg. Primarily because I want to see what Belisle can do out of the pen for the future (if anything).

lollipopcurve
05-12-2008, 10:50 AM
First, give Belisle a shot to restore his value (2-3 starts). If he can't, back to AAA. Then, I think they should give Lehr a few turns to see how he looks against major leaguers. He's a sinkerballer, I think, so he'll give other teams a different look. He may very well be able to provide the kind of insurance Fogg was signed to provide -- might as well find out.

Spring~Fields
05-12-2008, 11:12 AM
I can accept an attempt to constructively move forward. If that would be to continue to pitch Belisle and to bring up Lehr, I can see that as an effort to move forward.

KronoRed
05-12-2008, 01:24 PM
"So much pitching depth on this team." Remember that zinger? :p:

I do, guess most of the depth was Jimmy Anderson like though :D

Spring~Fields
05-12-2008, 01:30 PM
I do, guess most of the depth was Jimmy Anderson like though :D

:lol::lol:

Youíre right about depth and Jimmy Haynes, the pitching depth has been so great that we have had to put on hip boot waders to even watch them sitting in our living rooms, so it wouldn't get on us. ;)

NJReds
05-12-2008, 01:30 PM
I posted this in the minor league forum today. Belisle reminds me a bit of what happened to the Mets with Heilman. Heilman was supposed to be a starter, but consistantly got beat up and eventually was almost off the 40-man roster (he might have actually cleared waivers, I'm not positive). Then the Mets converted him to reliever where he's been effective. Could Belisle be an effective reliever? He seems to have a live arm.

Heilman still thinks he's a starter, and will most likely leave the Mets as a free agent when his contract is up for a team that will put him in the rotation. Buyer beware.

OnBaseMachine
05-12-2008, 03:32 PM
I'd like to see Homer Bailey throw a few more dominant starts in Louisville before I'd call him up. As for Thompson, I'd bump him to Louisville after a couple more starts and then maybe call him up in August or September.

WebScorpion
05-12-2008, 06:43 PM
I'd give Affeldt a look and have Fogg ready in long relief.

Rojo
05-16-2008, 07:28 PM
Friday afternoon brain fart: How about giving Weathers a start?

Spring~Fields
05-16-2008, 09:07 PM
I'd like to see Homer Bailey throw a few more dominant starts in Louisville before I'd call him up. As for Thompson, I'd bump him to Louisville after a couple more starts and then maybe call him up in August or September.

Tough night for Bailey (L, 4-4) 5.0 4 4 4 6 4 1 3.88

He is going to be there for awhile.

OnBaseMachine
05-16-2008, 10:10 PM
Tough night for Bailey (L, 4-4) 5.0 4 4 4 6 4 1 3.88

He is going to be there for awhile.

Yep. Another 10 starts down there could do him some good.

Will M
05-21-2008, 01:36 PM
I am curious to see what people thought of Belisle last night.
6 IP, 7 H, 3 ER, 0 BB, 3 K

My take is:
1. not as bad as his previous starts but just ok (especially in a pitchers park)
2. 3Ks is weak. only 12 Ks in 25 IP this year.
3. likely gets the ball for at least one more start
4. i still would like him in the pen, AAA or traded rather than starting every
5th day.

VR
05-21-2008, 03:41 PM
I am curious to see what people thought of Belisle last night.
6 IP, 7 H, 3 ER, 0 BB, 3 K

My take is:
1. not as bad as his previous starts but just ok (especially in a pitchers park)
2. 3Ks is weak. only 12 Ks in 25 IP this year.
3. likely gets the ball for at least one more start
4. i still would like him in the pen, AAA or traded rather than starting every
5th day.

I think most teams would do backflips to have that kind of performance from their #5. I'd give him a long rope based on the other options.

RedsManRick
05-21-2008, 03:42 PM
I maintain that Belisle isn't a world beater, but is actually an above average 5th starter. Given our other options, I'd simply stick with him until a clearly better solution is ready to go -- be that Bailey, Thompson. Flipping him in and out based on his last start or two just doesn't make sense. I simply don't understand the logic in cycling through low ceiling options. It causes confusion and wastes roster space.

People just have way too inflated expectations from a 6th starter. As crazy as it sounds, getting 150 innings of sub 5.50 ERA ball would make Belisle one of the best #5 starters in baseball, and that is easily within his ability -- especially if the defense stops sucking so hard.

bucksfan2
05-21-2008, 04:15 PM
I didn't watch much of the game. Mostly the first few innings coming in and out of sleep. What I did notice is that Belisle just can't get out of his own way some times. I think it was the second inning and he had an opportunity to get out of the inning pretty much unscathed with the pitcher coming up with one out. What does Belisle do, groove an average fast ball right down broadway. With Belisle it just seems like he has mental errors all too often. I can understand a mental error from time to time but when you are buckled down trying to prevent a big inning you can't have a mental error.

He isn't the worst #5 starter in baseball. The problem with Belisle is he has the potental to be much better. He has the stuff to get much better but he just continues to make mistakes which make him very very replaceable.

*BaseClogger*
05-21-2008, 04:19 PM
It is the lack of strikeouts that stand out so far this season, but it is still way too early and too small of a sample size. He still has very good control. We will have a better idea when he gets around 50 innings pitched. Give him at least another three starts IMO...

BuckeyeRedleg
05-21-2008, 04:25 PM
No option for Matt Maloney?

I'll take him.

Lehr? Meh
Fogg? Yuck.
Bailey? Not ready. 10 more quality starts in AAA.
Thompson? Needs a full year in AA/AAA.
Affeldt? He's doing great in the pen. Why mess with a good thing?

*BaseClogger*
05-21-2008, 04:33 PM
No option for Matt Maloney?

I think his ERA was somewhere north of 5 when I created this thread...

Falls City Beer
05-21-2008, 04:35 PM
I think his ERA was somewhere north of 5 when I created this thread...

And let's face it: it would be in the majors today, too.

Will M
05-21-2008, 04:54 PM
I think most teams would do backflips to have that kind of performance from their #5. I'd give him a long rope based on the other options.

if he did this every time then yes. so far he has had two ok starts and three terrible starts. adds up to a 6.75 ERA.

p.s. - his career BAA is .300 :eek:

BuckeyeRedleg
05-21-2008, 04:56 PM
And let's face it: it would be in the majors today, too.


As would the other options given.

Reds1
05-21-2008, 05:25 PM
Belise gets another start IMO, but if in a couple more he stinks then I go with Homer and move belise to long man. I thought he did ok last night.

TRF
05-21-2008, 05:33 PM
I am curious to see what people thought of Belisle last night.
6 IP, 7 H, 3 ER, 0 BB, 3 K

My take is:
1. not as bad as his previous starts but just ok (especially in a pitchers park)
2. 3Ks is weak. only 12 Ks in 25 IP this year.
3. likely gets the ball for at least one more start
4. i still would like him in the pen, AAA or traded rather than starting every
5th day.

11 ground outs, 4 flyouts. That's huge in GABP. and were it not for the official scorer and a dropped ball that should have been caught, it might have been 1 ER. He was also pitch efficient. 86 pitches I think in 6 IP and faced 1 batter in the 7th.

I think he's the choice right now, and I think he'll be the choice at the end of the year too.

Rojo
05-21-2008, 05:52 PM
People just have way too inflated expectations from a 6th starter. As crazy as it sounds, getting 150 innings of sub 5.50 ERA ball would make Belisle one of the best #5 starters in baseball, and that is easily within his ability -- especially if the defense stops sucking so hard.

I think you can say that about starting pitching in general. Some folks are stuck on 1985 when a high 3 era was so-so and you could lead the league in homers with 37.

Falls City Beer
05-21-2008, 05:52 PM
As would the other options given.

Right. So why not give a guy like Belisle a chance to continue where he already is?

Maloney represents a chair shuffle, not a solution.

GAC
05-21-2008, 08:59 PM
I am curious to see what people thought of Belisle last night.
6 IP, 7 H, 3 ER, 0 BB, 3 K

My take is:
1. not as bad as his previous starts but just ok (especially in a pitchers park)
2. 3Ks is weak. only 12 Ks in 25 IP this year.
3. likely gets the ball for at least one more start
4. i still would like him in the pen, AAA or traded rather than starting every
5th day.

The only problem with Belisle though is consistency. He has a heck of a time putting solid back-to-back starts together. You have no idea what you're going to get next time out.

But for right now, he's our only viable answer for a #5. Just keep the bullpen - guys like Affeldt, Fogg - at the ready. Maybe call up Shearns for that role this year too.

I don't think we have the arms for a 4 man rotation. Harang (the workhorse) yes. But not Arroyo (who is trying to find consistency with his fastball) and two young arms in Cueto and Volquez who are already throwing lots of pitches/game.

And why include a Thompson on the list if some think a Bailey may not quite be ready?

And I also have a hard time taking a guy who is showing success in the bullpen, taking him out of there, and inserting him in the rotation based solely on need. Shades of Danny Graves.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-21-2008, 09:08 PM
Right. So why not give a guy like Belisle a chance to continue where he already is?

Maloney represents a chair shuffle, not a solution.


LOL. I missed the Belisle option.

Yes, I'm fine with Belisle for now.

Maloney is my first choice, however, if Belisle is taken out of the rotation.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2008, 09:09 PM
Jocketty saw left-hander Matt Maloney throw. "He looked very good," Jocketty said.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/

WebScorpion
05-21-2008, 10:25 PM
I didn't watch much of the game. Mostly the first few innings coming in and out of sleep. What I did notice is that Belisle just can't get out of his own way some times. I think it was the second inning and he had an opportunity to get out of the inning pretty much unscathed with the pitcher coming up with one out. What does Belisle do, groove an average fast ball right down broadway. With Belisle it just seems like he has mental errors all too often. I can understand a mental error from time to time but when you are buckled down trying to prevent a big inning you can't have a mental error.

He isn't the worst #5 starter in baseball. The problem with Belisle is he has the potental to be much better. He has the stuff to get much better but he just continues to make mistakes which make him very very replaceable.
I thought Belisle's problem last night was pitch selection. He sometimes went 6 and 7 pitches without changing speeds. I'm not sure whether he was shaking off Ross or not, but IMHO he could have been dominant enough to win that game if he'd mixed in a few more off-speed pitches. The sad part is that that was the biggest park they'll play in and probably the best outing we'll get from Belisle all season.

*BaseClogger*
05-25-2008, 09:58 PM
Why is it that some on the GT want to get rid of Belisle but keep Fogg in the bullpen?

AmarilloRed
05-26-2008, 12:56 PM
I would change my vote at this point. Lehr is now headed overseas, and Matt Maloney is the best available choice. Maloney has had an impressive month of May.

Will M
05-26-2008, 02:10 PM
Belisle is terrible, just terrible. Send him to AAA and throw him in on the next trade. If no one wants him by the end of the year release him.
Same with Fogg.

I would prefer someone from AAA who has any chance to be ok now and better in the future. Give Maloney a shot ( or Bailey when he starts pitching better ).

Will M
05-26-2008, 02:12 PM
20% of ORG posters including two posters who I think are very knowledgable wanted the Reds to give Lehr a shot. Instead they sold his contract and ran Belisle out there again.

fearofpopvol1
05-26-2008, 02:16 PM
My vote is for Maloney, but since he is not an option, I went with Fogg. No way I throw Bailey out there and Belisle isn't the answer. I think he could be effective in the pen, but not out of the rotation. Fogg isn't good either, but I think he's a better option than Belisle is.

WebScorpion
05-27-2008, 10:14 AM
My original vote was for Affeldt because I believe this rotation needs a lefty. Maloney would satisfy that requirement while not diminishing the bullpen. I think it's a much better option than leaving Belisle in to give away games...at least the bullpen might get into the game with a lead to preserve. :thumbup: