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reds44
05-12-2008, 06:58 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8171/news



May 12 Hal McCoy, of the Dayton Daily News, reports Cincinnati Reds manager Dusty Baker said OF Jay Bruce will be recalled soon.

WVRedsFan
05-12-2008, 06:59 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8171/news

It's not so long until July. That's soon :).

Joseph
05-12-2008, 06:59 PM
Soon™?

Soon?

Thats pretty generic.

fearofpopvol1
05-12-2008, 07:00 PM
I don't see this as surprising. Walt himself said it would be "soon." It's just a question of how soon, really.

WVRedsFan
05-12-2008, 07:01 PM
OK. The big question is who goes? Griffey? Dunn? Hopper? Freel? Patterson (yeah, right)? Hatteberg? Valentin?

Questions. I have questions.

Raisor
05-12-2008, 07:01 PM
"Just as soon as they can trade Dunn and/or Junior"
-Made up Reds front office person

Cyclone792
05-12-2008, 07:02 PM
Dusty wants Bruce called up so Jay can sit on the bench and watch Corey Patterson leadoff nightly and "play the game the right way."

Joseph
05-12-2008, 07:09 PM
Dusty wants Bruce called up so Jay can sit on the bench and watch Corey Patterson leadoff nightly and "play the game the right way."


He does need to learn Patterson innate ability to take a walk.

KronoRed
05-12-2008, 07:12 PM
Dusty wants Bruce called up so Jay can sit on the bench and watch Corey Patterson leadoff nightly and "play the game the right way."

Ahh...I can't wait.

Spring~Fields
05-12-2008, 07:19 PM
Soon™?

Soon?

Thats pretty generic.

Yupp,

Pretty vague and loosely worded.

Also contradicts their comments about learning bat control, walks etc. Bruce has not quite achieved what they said was their criteria.

RedsManRick
05-12-2008, 07:24 PM
I wonder what Jocketty's opinion of Baker is? Any chance this is a combination of a promotion for Bruce and a comment on Dusty's inability to put the right lineup on the field?

SirFelixCat
05-12-2008, 07:31 PM
Oh please oh please oh please let this be before the dodger series.

OnBaseMachine
05-12-2008, 07:33 PM
Oh please oh please oh please let this be before the dodger series.

I'm hoping it's this Saturday because I have tickets to the Saturday/Sunday games against the Indians.:D

SirFelixCat
05-12-2008, 07:37 PM
I'm hoping it's this Saturday because I have tickets to the Saturday/Sunday games against the Indians.:D



I have no idea if this would play into it at all or not, but the Reds probably want to call him up while they're still at home, so maybe before the Cle. series?

Yes, I'm just speculating/hoping, but it gives me more to look forward to w/ the Dodger series a week away. :shrug:

corkedbat
05-12-2008, 08:02 PM
I see Bruce starting in CF and Patterson coming in as a late-inning defensive replacement with Bruce going to LF or RF (depending on whether AD or KGJ is switched out). After he reaches 600, I'd love to get a decent OF prospect for Junior, but I'd probably settle for anything.

Benihana
05-12-2008, 08:33 PM
I see Bruce starting in CF and Patterson coming in as a late-inning defensive replacement with Bruce going to LF or RF (depending on whether AD or KGJ is switched out). After he reaches 600, I'd love to get a decent OF prospect for Junior, but I'd probably settle for anything.

I like this strategy, a lot.

LoganBuck
05-12-2008, 09:50 PM
Patterson with a soft 4-5 tonight earns Bruce another month in AAA.:thumbdown

AmarilloRed
05-12-2008, 09:53 PM
Does his arbitration clock start early if he is recalled before June 1st? I read a post mentioning that recently. If that is true, I would not expect to see him before June 1

MWM
05-12-2008, 10:02 PM
Honestly, I'd love to see Bruce start taking some more walks in AAA before he comes up to the majors.

Tommyjohn25
05-12-2008, 10:02 PM
Does his arbitration clock start early if he is recalled before June 1st? I read a post mentioning that recently. If that is true, I would not expect to see him before June 1

I don't believe so. I think his super 2 status date has passed already.

Far East
05-12-2008, 10:29 PM
Honestly, I'd love to see Bruce start taking some more walks in AAA before he comes up to the majors.
With a AAA line like this: .348 BA, .375 OBP, .609 SLG, and .984 OPS, who needs walks? :)

Spring~Fields
05-12-2008, 10:43 PM
With a AAA line like this: .348 BA, .375 OBP, .609 SLG, and .984 OPS, who needs walks? :)

vs Left .370 .354 .609 .963
vs Right .337.385 .609 .993

April .316 .340 .561 .901
May .425 .457 .725 1.182

Bases Empty .316 .341 .557 .898
Runners On .390 .414 .678 1.092
Scoring Position .343 .391 .686 1.077

guttle11
05-12-2008, 10:45 PM
Honestly, I'd love to see Bruce start taking some more walks in AAA before he comes up to the majors.

I would to, but I don't think that should be his litmus test to determine readiness.

11larkin11
05-12-2008, 11:23 PM
If AAA pitchers are dumb enough to throw him good pitches, I'm not going to fault him for hitting them into doubles.

reds44
05-12-2008, 11:24 PM
vs Left .370 .354 .609 .963

Lower OBP than BA.

That is impressive.

MasonBuzz3
05-12-2008, 11:43 PM
If AAA pitchers are dumb enough to throw him good pitches, I'm not going to fault him for hitting them into doubles.

ditto...he seems to be playing down a level right now, i can not fault being aggressive at the plate


vs Left .370 .354 .609 .963

Lower OBP than BA.

That is impressive.

i'm guessing that is a typo, but if not....someone please explain

Screwball
05-13-2008, 12:02 AM
i'm guessing that is a typo, but if not....someone please explain

Sac. flies and sac. bunts don't count against your average, but they do count against your on base percentage. Bruce probably hit a couple sac. flies (bunts after Dusty gets ahold of him ;)) without taking many walks.

Patrick Bateman
05-13-2008, 12:02 AM
i'm guessing that is a typo, but if not....someone please explain

Sac flies don't count against batting average, but they count as an out for on base %... so he probably has zero walks, and a sac fly in those at-bats.

EDIT: Screwball is too quick.

Caveat Emperor
05-13-2008, 12:08 AM
With a AAA line like this: .348 BA, .375 OBP, .609 SLG, and .984 OPS, who needs walks? :)

I'll bite.

Jay Bruce at .348 BA / .375 OBP generates sufficient BA-driven OBP to be valuable.

Jay Bruce at .300 BA / .327 OBP is an out-machine in the middle of the lineup.

I expect a 2008 line much closer to the latter than the former when Jay Bruce gets called up. He shouldn't get called up in the first place until it gets drilled into his skull that plate discipline is not only key, but an expectation for a hitter of his caliber.

Giving him a ML job before he learns this is sending the wrong message and retarding his development as a complete hitter.

MWM
05-13-2008, 12:11 AM
If AAA pitchers are dumb enough to throw him good pitches, I'm not going to fault him for hitting them into doubles.

Well, it's not that simple. Your statement assumes that he's hitting primarily good pitches. My point is that I don't think they're throwing him good pitches any more than they would in the big leagues. Bruce is talented enough to hit AAA pitches that aren't necessarily good pitches to hit. If he's not taking any walks, there's a high likelihood he's not being very selective, but is able to hit not good pitches anyway. In the big leagues, he won't be able to conistently hit those pitches. He's going to HAVE to be selective again major league pitchers. Of coures, if he turs out to be Vlad, then it doesn't matter.

Screwball
05-13-2008, 12:16 AM
I'll bite.

Jay Bruce at .348 BA / .375 OBP generates sufficient BA-driven OBP to be valuable.

Jay Bruce at .300 BA / .327 OBP is an out-machine in the middle of the lineup.

I expect a 2008 line much closer to the former than the latter when Jay Bruce gets called up.

Probably. However there's also a potential .500+ SLG to go along with adequate range in center and a plus arm to consider. Yes, taking walks is the one knock on him. But the positives just outweigh the negative, IMO.

Reds1
05-13-2008, 12:29 AM
Featured story on Yahoo fantasy
Someone actually already picked him up in one of my leagues....

PROSPECT WATCH: Top players down on the farm

Jay Bruce, Cin, OF (ETA – June)
As a Seattle-area resident, I can tell you that the rumor of Seattle's growing interest in Ken Griffey Jr. makes sense. Seattle desperately needs an infusion of offense and good PR – and, believe me, the fans would love to bring "The Kid" back. A Griffey move would save Cincinnati money and open up room for Bruce, the consensus top minor league prospect in baseball headed into this season. Bruce is currently eating Triple-A pitching alive, connecting for six home runs and a .924 OPS in his first 35 games at Louisville – He's also swiped seven bases. The Reds are currently the second-worst team in the NL (15-23) and hope to purge the contracts of both Griffey and Adam Dunn this season. I think the team will ultimately work something out for both players, with Griffey the likelier of the two to be gone before the summer solstice. Look for Bruce to be in a Reds uniform inside of a month, maybe sooner. Andy Behrens added the six-percent owned Bruce today in the Yahoo! Friends and Family League (damn him) and, if you have some loose change on your bench, I suggest you do the same.

smith288
05-13-2008, 10:20 AM
*yawn*

THe dumbest GM award would go to Bill Bavasi if he did that. Wait until after the season and he saves himself 16 million...

MWM
05-13-2008, 10:25 AM
*yawn*

THe dumbest GM award would go to Bill Bavasi

I think he's already won that award once or twice. :D

AmarilloRed
05-13-2008, 11:37 AM
From Rotoworld:


]Based on a conversation he had with Dusty Baker a couple of weeks ago, Hal McCoy of the Dayton Daily News believes it could happen in early June.


This would seem to provide more information. I would expect to see Bruce in a Reds uniform between June 1 and June 15, 2008.

Cyclone792
05-13-2008, 12:02 PM
From Rotoworld:

This would seem to provide more information. I would expect to see Bruce in a Reds uniform between June 1 and June 15, 2008.

The Reds will wait until he safely clears Super Two status, which will be sometime from late May to mid June. The historical "safe" cutoff mark for Super Two status is two years, 128 days.

MrCinatit
05-13-2008, 03:52 PM
From Rotoworld:
This would seem to provide more information. I would expect to see Bruce in a Reds uniform between June 1 and June 15, 2008.

This is a lot better than the ultra-vague "soon", which brings back fuzzy memories such as the multiple times Griffey was going to come back "soon', only to end up on the DL for an extended period of time.

*BaseClogger*
05-13-2008, 10:54 PM
Bring Jay Bruce with Paul Janish. Gonna need the offense...

Will M
05-13-2008, 11:07 PM
Bring Jay Bruce with Paul Janish. Gonna need the offense...

absolutely. get Jr out of town this week. no reason to wait any longer.
who gives a flying rats you know what about #600?

WVRedsFan
05-14-2008, 12:40 AM
absolutely. get Jr out of town this week. no reason to wait any longer.
who gives a flying rats you know what about #600?

One problem. He doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to. And Imight add he doesn't. Not now anyway. Besides, Junior is the least of this team's problems. I know you won't believe that, but it's true.

*BaseClogger*
05-14-2008, 12:43 AM
One problem. He doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to. And Imight add he doesn't. Not now anyway. Besides, Junior is the least of this team's problems. I know you won't believe that, but it's true.

least of this team's problems? His defense AND offense are problems right now...

klw
05-14-2008, 07:26 AM
Bring Jay Bruce with Paul Janish. Gonna need the offense...

I agree if Bruce is going to get playing time. Easy to let Javy go. He only has AB's this month and 5 since April 20. If hairston is going to be picking up time in the outfield Bruce can get time in CF. I don't see it happening for a few more weeks however.

indy_dave00
05-14-2008, 02:07 PM
Another display for Jay Bruce today 3 hits in 3 at bats plus 2 walks. The hits were a double and triple slammed off the wall and a line drive homer to left center field.

On the seaon now hitting .366 with 11 doubles, 5 triples, 8 homers 33 rbi's and 7 steals.

In the last 10 games he is hitting .611 (22 of 36 ) 6 doubles , 2 triples , 3 homers and 14 rbi's , call him up now while he is in a total hitting zone.

RedlegJake
05-14-2008, 02:26 PM
He's raised his walk rate to about one every 13 PAs, too. It's not like he's swinging at anything and everything. He makes hard contact as consistently as any young hitter I've seen. Right now he's just ridiculous.

Spring~Fields
05-14-2008, 05:32 PM
He's raised his walk rate to about one every 13 PAs, too. It's not like he's swinging at anything and everything. He makes hard contact as consistently as any young hitter I've seen. Right now he's just ridiculous.

Jay Bruce
145 AB, 27 R, 53 H, 9 2B, 5 3B, 8 HR, 33 RBI, 96 TB, 11 BB,
34 So, 7 SB

Season .366 .398 .662 1.060

vs Left .383 .380 .660 1.040
vs Right .357 .405 .663 1.069

Home Games .383 .418 .850 1.268
Away Games .353 .383 .529 .912

April .316 .340 .561 .901
May .468 .509 .872 1.381

Ahead in Count .460 .548 .840 1.388
Bases Empty .337 .368 .627 .994
Runners On .403 .432 .710 1.142
Scoring Position .368 .420 .737 1.157

Spring~Fields
05-14-2008, 08:28 PM
Looks like we can give it a rest on the Bruce issue, and enjoy the games.


Jocketty addresses Bruce, Jr.

GM: Team in no rush to call up Bruce, has had no Jr. trade talks
BY JOHN FAY

Jay Bruce might be the hottest hitter on the planet. The Reds prospect went 3-for-3 with a double, triple and home run for Triple-A Lousville in an 11-6 win over Scranton today. He's hitting .667 with three home runs and nine RBI over his last five games. He's hitting .611 over his last 10 games.

Does it get to the point where the Reds need to bring him up?

"The main thing is you've got to make sure you've got enough playing time," Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said. "I don't think we feel comfortable that we have the adequate playing time. At some point, we just have to do it. Believe me, it hasn't gone unnoticed. We have so many good left-handed hitting outfielders, we have to see what would be the best time to bring him up.

"At some point, you just do it."

An opening obviously would be created if the Reds traded Ken Griffey Jr. But for all the talk about that, nothing is even remotely close to happening.

"I've had no trade discussions," Jocketty said.

Jocketty has talked to Griffey about the situation. As a player with 10 years experience and five years tenure with his current club, Griffey must approve any trade.

"I've talked with him," Jocketty said. "Not knowing Junior that well, I wanted to make sure we had a line of communication open. He assured me that he'd like to play here and hopefully win a championship."

AmarilloRed
05-14-2008, 08:39 PM
Someone explain to me how there is not enough playing time with the way CP is playing. He has a .236 BA, a .462 slg. and a .286 OBP after 110 AB. Small sample size, to be sure, but there is no doubt Bruce could do better than that. It just makes no sense to me.

Spring~Fields
05-14-2008, 08:41 PM
Someone explain to me how there is not enough playing time with the way CP is playing. He has a .236 BA, a .462 slg. and a .286 OBP after 110 AB. Small sample size, to be sure, but there is no doubt Bruce could do better than that. It just makes no sense to me.

Follow the money trail $$$$

*BaseClogger*
05-14-2008, 08:49 PM
We have so many good left-handed hitting outfielders

:lol:

GAC
05-14-2008, 08:57 PM
recalled?

Doesn't he have to be called first?

Will M
05-14-2008, 09:55 PM
Someone explain to me how there is not enough playing time with the way CP is playing. He has a .236 BA, a .462 slg. and a .286 OBP after 110 AB. Small sample size, to be sure, but there is no doubt Bruce could do better than that. It just makes no sense to me.

Corey has been AWESOME defensively all season. Did you see the two throws he made tonight. I don't want Bruce in CF betwenn Jr & Dunn.
I want Dunn-Patterson-Bruce.
Keep the A defender in CF.
RF defense goes from F to B.

AmarilloRed
05-14-2008, 10:33 PM
Corey has been AWESOME defensively all season. Did you see the two throws he made tonight. I don't want Bruce in CF betwenn Jr & Dunn.
I want Dunn-Patterson-Bruce.
Keep the A defender in CF.
RF defense goes from F to B.

I suppose there is a tradeoff involved; at what point does his anemic bat offset his outstanding defense.

Tommyjohn25
05-16-2008, 01:25 PM
I had to bump this thread. My reason you may ask? I am absolutely dying to see this kid get the call...I mean it's bad. Like little kid on Cristmas eve bad. I grow more and more anxious by the day, and somehow I feel if I keep typing this it will get him here faster. WE WANT BRUCE! WE WANT BRUCE!

HotCorner
05-16-2008, 02:36 PM
The playing time issue is easy to solve to get Bruce up here while both Griffey and Dunn remain.

DFA Valentin. He currently serves no purpose other than the third catcher and left handed bat off the bench. By promoting Bruce, you allow Patterson and Freel to become bench players that allow Dusty more flexibilty for in game personnel switches. I'd rather have Bruce in the lineup daily with Patterson and Freel on the bench than Patterson/Freel in the lineup daily with Valentin on the bench.

Tommyjohn25
05-16-2008, 02:45 PM
The playing time issue is easy to solve to get Bruce up here while both Griffey and Dunn remain.

DFA Valentin. He currently serves no purpose other than the third catcher and left handed bat off the bench. By promoting Bruce, you allow Patterson and Freel to become bench players that allow Dusty more flexibilty for in game personnel switches. I'd rather have Bruce in the lineup daily with Patterson and Freel on the bench than Patterson/Freel in the lineup daily with Valentin on the bench.


Bingo. Bruce has little, possibly nothing at all, left to prove in AAA. He is playing out of his mind.

flyer85
05-16-2008, 02:51 PM
To this point in the season Patterson has an FRAA of 0, over the course of his career he is -48. He is an average CF at best.

His Rate is 100 and has only been over 100(101) once in his career. While Patterson may "look good" in CF, especially by comparison there is nothing to suggest he is anything more than adequate.

Puffy
05-16-2008, 03:27 PM
Boy, I can't wait for the Reds to trade Griffey so the winning can begin. If we can only get of him by May 30 then we can win the world series this year!

Spring~Fields
05-16-2008, 05:01 PM
To this point in the season Patterson has an FRAA of 0, over the course of his career he is -48. He is an average CF at best.

His Rate is 100 and has only been over 100(101) once in his career. While Patterson may "look good" in CF, especially by comparison there is nothing to suggest he is anything more than adequate.

I think that Baker will want Patterson back next year.

marcshoe
05-16-2008, 05:07 PM
The Reds had better call him up before St. Louis does. On my way home today I heard Dibble say that the Cardinals had just called up a pitcher from Louisville. :confused:

Okay, what he actually said was that Chris Perez had been called up from the Louisville Redbirds.

fwiw, now that Longoria's up, Bruce seems to be the focus of everyone's "why don't they call him up!" Not just here....

gm
05-16-2008, 05:25 PM
Griffey can't win for losing in the Cincy market

Now, he's the "bad" guy who's "blocking" Bruce

This whole "Junior coming home to the Reds" episode has been one long cautionary tale

re: "be careful what you wish for"

MikeS21
05-16-2008, 06:33 PM
I may be the only one on the planet who feels this way, but I want to see Bruce stay at AAA at least mid-July.

The thing I am weary of is the mindset of "He's got nothing else to prove" and then they bring up players and watch them struggle. He does not yet have 500 AB's above High A level yet. Why not give him those AB's. Let him hit against some of the best minor league pitchers in the AAA All-Star Game and the Futures' Game.

What is the rush to bring him up? Dunn or Griffey aren't going to sit just so Bruce can play every day. Forcing Junior to the bench in favor of Bruce will not lead to trading Junior any quicker. And I just don't think Bruce can handle CF defensively as long as Dunn and Griffey are the corner OF's. I have no doubt Bruce is a good outfielder, but I seriously doubt if he can cover foul line to foul line.

KronoRed
05-16-2008, 06:50 PM
I think that Baker will want Patterson back next year.

As a backup sure, but if Walt gives him more then 500k then he should be canned

Spring~Fields
05-16-2008, 09:09 PM
As a backup sure, but if Walt gives him more then 500k then he should be canned

Looks like you have the right idea to me, Patterson might be a decent backup.
I am counting on Jocketty doing a real makeover though of the team over the winter.

AmarilloRed
05-17-2008, 12:21 AM
Looks like you have the right idea to me, Patterson might be a decent backup.
I am counting on Jocketty doing a real makeover though of the team over the winter.

The only problem with this is Dusty. I just can't see him ever playing Corey Patterson as a backup. If CP is on the team, Dusty will have him as the starting CF.

*BaseClogger*
05-17-2008, 12:22 AM
The only problem with this is Dusty. I just can't see him ever playing Corey Patterson as a backup. If CP is on the team, Dusty will have him as the starting CF.

and CF bats leadoff... ;)

Spring~Fields
05-17-2008, 03:55 AM
The only problem with this is Dusty. I just can't see him ever playing Corey Patterson as a backup. If CP is on the team, Dusty will have him as the starting CF.


Baker and his fixation is a concern.

I am hoping that he and Jocketty reach an understanding in the future or that Jocketty changes Bakers paradigm of thinking. So far I haven’t witnessed any signs of that happening with the latest being that of a slick fielding shortstop named Janish watching Hairston get the start over him during a time when the Reds need to improve their defense to help the pitching.

LoganBuck
05-17-2008, 07:19 AM
Baker and his fixation is a concern.

I am hoping that he and Jocketty reach an understanding in the future or that Jocketty changes Bakers paradigm of thinking. So far I haven’t witnessed any signs of that happening with the latest being that of a slick fielding shortstop named Janish watching Hairston get the start over him during a time when the Reds need to improve their defense to help the pitching.

During the broadcast last night Hal McCoy said that he talked to a scout that had been following Louisville. In short the guy ran out of hyperbole in describing Bruce. Hal brought up the walk rate thing, as just an excuse at this point.

Marty asked "Where would he play, given the Reds crowded outfield"?

Hal replied "It won't be over Griffey or Dunn. Which leaves Corey Patterson, and Dusty would object to that big time."

Screwball
05-17-2008, 09:26 AM
Hal replied "It won't be over Griffey or Dunn. Which leaves Corey Patterson, and Dusty would object to that big time."

Why? Freel's been playing more than him anyway.

Tommyjohn25
05-17-2008, 09:32 AM
Why? Freel's been playing more than him anyway.

Exactly. I don't think any of this is the real issue. My opinion? When Bruces super 2 date passes, he's making the trip up I75.

WMR
05-17-2008, 09:39 AM
During the broadcast last night Hal McCoy said that he talked to a scout that had been following Louisville. In short the guy ran out of hyperbole in describing Bruce. Hal brought up the walk rate thing, as just an excuse at this point.

Marty asked "Where would he play, given the Reds crowded outfield"?

Hal replied "It won't be over Griffey or Dunn. Which leaves Corey Patterson, and Dusty would object to that big time."

I really, really don't want to believe that.

WMR
05-17-2008, 09:41 AM
Exactly. I don't think any of this is the real issue. My opinion? When Bruces super 2 date passes, he's making the trip up I75.

That sounds logical to me.

I honestly believe the Reds would be best-served by having Bruce play RF rather than CF. Griffey is simply a negative contributor in all facets of the game at this point, unfortunately. Even if his bat wakes up, it's unlikely he will be able to produce enough offensively to counteract his disastrous defense.

membengal
05-17-2008, 09:45 AM
I really do hope it is the Super 2 date that is holding them back. I don't agree with their decision to do that (if that is what it is), but it at least would be defensible.

If it is the other thing (no room to play him), well, that would be very disappointing. Part of what made the Hamilton trade palatable (besides Volquez) was knowing that Bruce was ready and could help replace the lost production. It really is silly to have an offensive answer cooling his heels in Louisville when the team could desperately use the offense because they will not use him over Patterson/Freel or else find a way to give him RF and move Jr. now.

Bruce should be instant offense for a club that really could use it. It really is time to find a way to get him here and playing nearly every day...

RFS62
05-17-2008, 10:05 AM
Exactly. I don't think any of this is the real issue. My opinion? When Bruces super 2 date passes, he's making the trip up I75.



Exactly.

Spring~Fields
05-17-2008, 11:59 AM
As the writers and fans alike clamor with the question of why isn’t Bruce getting the call up, the answers might be found in a grocery list of choices and decisions.

Four of the outfielders are under contract for amounts ranging from 3 million plus to 13 million, numbers that make financial and investor types cringe, super two dollars seem to be a hometown discount when considering the present payroll expense accompanied by the reduction of attendance. In addition, Reds management made some type of commitment to Hairston and Hopper. Six outfielders, these outfielders consume a large portion of their budget, position players where even the banana phone elite can point out their blemishes and flaws either in the field or at the plate because it is so obvious that none of them can either hit or field at the same time in one package.

Six of the thirteen position players that Red’s management carry are left handed bats. Even Valentin hits better from the left side. Valentin a guy that needs to somehow vanish like Hopper and the majority of those left handed bats perform poorly against left handed pitching. The Reds have one qualified center fielder who is left handed and can’t hit. They have two other outfielders who can or used to hit but can’t field, and two first basemen who are left handed and saddled to first base because they can’t play any other position. One of those left handed bats flashes some numbers that indicates that he might hit left handed pitching on a given night while that left handed pitching snuffs out the Reds like rain upon a candle.

Money, the past of a fading star, and management’s ego over their previous decisions and escalation in commitment to those previous choices is standing in the way of a better judgment call, Bruce.

A Bruce who can actually field all three outfield positions, not just one, unlike the alleged current “options” for a team that has pitching that is desperately calling out for a greater defense behind it and some offensive support in front of it. A Bruce that can actually hit left handed pitching with ridiculous numbers warranting an opportunity at the current tune of .400 .396 .720 1.116 against left handed pitching; yet his plate discipline and bat control is in question, numbers that many of the Reds fans had hoped for in the coming of Bruce, fielding and hitting in one young low cost package, a package that many Reds fans are dreaming of today. Has anyone mentioned that Bruce is an athlete participating in an athletic competition and can actually move?

This young pup has eight stolen bases, caught once, nine doubles and five triples, five triples! To compliment that OPS, he actually has some legs to cover the territory that comes with his field of endeavor, contrary to the rumor of a history of leg problems that the manager attempted to promote at a time when it became convenient to secure his current or primary lead-off hitter who couldn’t draw OBP in the dust at the plate with his bat let alone hit for a respectable OBP.

A “young pup” who has the burden of overcoming an age bias within management over the old goats grazing off of a limited Red’s payroll in management and on the field who consume yet don’t produce up to the standards that a winning Reds team desperately needs. The fans who actually pay for all of the freight are getting fleeced, while being compelled to consume an inferior and poor product sprinkled with some management propaganda once again when they know that if the boss, the power and authority, actually wants to get something done, the boss can do it.

I long to see what a Dunn, Phillips, Encarcion and a Votto might be and do with a complimentary cast surrounding them, a team of winners.

coachw513
05-17-2008, 12:11 PM
During the broadcast last night Hal McCoy said that he talked to a scout that had been following Louisville. In short the guy ran out of hyperbole in describing Bruce. Hal brought up the walk rate thing, as just an excuse at this point.

Marty asked "Where would he play, given the Reds crowded outfield"?

Hal replied "It won't be over Griffey or Dunn. Which leaves Corey Patterson, and Dusty would object to that big time."

From Hal's blog last night:


A rival scout’s assessment of Bruce after watching him several times in Louisville: “Why isn’t he in Cincinnati?

“I’ve seen very few balls jump off the bat they way they do on Bruce. I saw him pull an inside fastball from a lefthanded pitcher over the right field fence. I saw him hit a slider into the left field seats. I saw him hit a change-up that was still on the rise when it cleared the center field fence.

“I had been told he couldn’t play center field. He can, better than anybody they have now. He can play all three outfield positions. He has everything but speed and his instincts are so good he gets great jumps on balls.

“I never saw a ball go over his head and stay in the park and I never saw one fall in front of him and he caught everything in the gaps,” he said. “He’d be playing center field for my team right now and we have a good center fielder.”

For a moment, I'll dream this is true...think we'd be having more fun enjoying this team if from the jump Bruce was this year's CF and Freel was his RH complement, who could then be the 4th OF for Dunn and Griffey???...

Cyclone792
05-17-2008, 01:01 PM
“I had been told he couldn’t play center field. He can, better than anybody they have now. He can play all three outfield positions. He has everything but speed and his instincts are so good he gets great jumps on balls.

“I never saw a ball go over his head and stay in the park and I never saw one fall in front of him and he caught everything in the gaps,” he said. “He’d be playing center field for my team right now and we have a good center fielder.”

Let me just say that I saw Bruce play center field when he was with the Dragons, and based on what I saw the above scouting description fits very well. Bruce can not only play center field, he can play it very well and is very accurate.
Bruce also has a pretty damn nice throwing arm too.

All the stuff about moving Bruce to right field is overblown at this point. If he has to move to right field when he's 30, so be it, but that doesn't mean he can't play terrific center field defense at the age of 21.

BCubb2003
05-17-2008, 02:40 PM
I noticed that even the scout says Bruce is slow for a centerfielder. Three slow outfielders might be trouble, no matter how good some of their instincts are

KronoRed
05-17-2008, 03:55 PM
Exactly. I don't think any of this is the real issue. My opinion? When Bruces super 2 date passes, he's making the trip up I75.

Louisville is down I71, I hope Bruce takes that route :cool:

Will M
05-17-2008, 06:58 PM
I noticed that even the scout says Bruce is slow for a centerfielder. Three slow outfielders might be trouble, no matter how good some of their instincts are

we can't have Dunn-Bruce-Jr in the outfield.
Dunn-Patterson/Freel-Bruce should be the plan.

membengal
05-17-2008, 07:02 PM
Yup.

Dunn/CF platoon/Bruce

Putting Bruce into this line-up in place of Jr. would produce immediate positive results. It simply has to be acknowledged...

*BaseClogger*
05-17-2008, 07:59 PM
Makes me think... Really, how good is Corey Patterson's defense? Is it really that far above average?

Will M
05-17-2008, 10:01 PM
Makes me think... Really, how good is Corey Patterson's defense? Is it really that far above average?

IMO - yes. a big yes.

flyer85
05-17-2008, 11:03 PM
Makes me think... Really, how good is Corey Patterson's defense? Is it really that far above average?the stats say probably not. he has a FRAA of -48 for his career. He is an average CF at best.

LoganBuck
05-17-2008, 11:04 PM
IMO - yes. a big yes.

Not enough to offset his horrible bat, and miscast role on the team and in the lineup. His .685 OPS is unacceptable. This lineup is so sad, I really only pay attention Phillips-Votto-Encarnacion-Dunn. The rest isn't worth following. Corey Patterson just needs to leave. Jr first, then Patterson.

AmarilloRed
05-17-2008, 11:21 PM
From John Fay:


I talked to Walt Jocketty today for the Insider for the paper.

--Starting the arbitration clock is not a factor with Jay Bruce. Jocketty said what he said the other day: It's a playing time issue. "We're going to have do it sometime and just figure it out."

posted by John Fay at 6:55 PM

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/2008/05/reds-4-indians-2.asp


It clearly is not an issue of arbitration, but simply one of playing time. I just can't see how it makes any sense to have Patterson starting over Bruce.

MartyFan
05-17-2008, 11:52 PM
From John Fay:



http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/2008/05/reds-4-indians-2.asp


It clearly is not an issue of arbitration, but simply one of playing time. I just can't see how it makes any sense to have Patterson starting over Bruce.

I agree, other than he is one of Dusty's guys.

That said, I get it. I mean look how many Reds FO and Management and coaching staff were in the corner of Brandon Larson...he looked like the real deal...he was a can't miss prospect until it came to his performance on the diamond at the MLB level.

So, I get what Dusty is thinking about Patterson and I wish he would have panned out to be the player he was projected to be...but he hasn't and WE need to move on.

guttle11
05-17-2008, 11:58 PM
I can't buy what Jocketty is saying. He's too smart. There is no "figuring it out" if it's just a playing time issue. You DFA Patterson, move Freel back to the super sub role, and you write Jay Bruce into the starting lineup 4 of every 5 days. Along those lines it can't be a Patterson contract issue. It's a one year deal for a crappy, not part of the present or future player. You're eating that money whether he's on the roster or not.

It has to either be a Dusty/Jocketty veteran love issue, an arbitration issue, or a "Bruce needs to learn a bit more" issue. The first two pretty much make me angry, and I can live with the third until maybe the all-star break...and if he keeps hitting well, no longer.

*BaseClogger*
05-18-2008, 12:03 AM
why does the super 2/arbitration excuse for keeping Bruce down make people so angry? It is a sound fiscal strategy that will free up resources down the road to help improve the team...

guttle11
05-18-2008, 12:15 AM
why does the super 2/arbitration excuse for keeping Bruce down make people so angry? It is a sound fiscal strategy that will free up resources down the road to help improve the team...



If a few million a year earlier is going to break the bank in 2 years, the team has no shot to compete anyway.

Even having never faced Major league pitching he has a better chance to succeed than Freel and Patterson IMHO. I want the team to be as good as it possibly can at all times. A by all accounts "ready" Jay Bruce would make the team better.

Cooper
05-18-2008, 12:43 AM
Bruce provides a better chance to win more games. Those games he could win also have a value to a team....i'm guessing here but if Bruce is 3 or 4 games better than Patterson...those 3 wins are probably worth 2 or 3 million dollars. What they save in arbitration they lose in overall wins -those wins have value (btw that's 3 wins over a years time).

Some sabermetric dude (maybe it was Tangotiger)...figured out the value (at the margins) of each win for a team.

It also sends a bad message to guys in the minors- i'm not real crazy with that message.

Lastly, it sends a bad meesage to fans.

Last year, the Brewers waited and it came close to costing them a pennant...they came up short, but Ryan Braun in the lienup early in the year may have been quite valuable.

Morale matters.

Chip R
05-18-2008, 12:46 AM
I wonder, if the Reds don't move Dunn and Jr. by September leaving Bruce in LOU till then, if they keep him in LOU next year till his Super 2 status expires.

*BaseClogger*
05-18-2008, 12:48 AM
But it's one more week--it would be silly to call him up now. My point is have him on the roster on Opening Day or wait until after the super 2 cutoff date--don't bring him up in-between...

WMR
05-18-2008, 07:12 AM
At this point it would be foolish to call him up with Bruce being so close to passing up super two status. 7-8 million bucks will always be a big issue to a team like the Reds. Furthermore, even if we end up buying those years out with a long-term deal a la Braun, going into negotiations with Bruce not having super two status will put the Reds in a better bargaining position when buying out those years.

mth123
05-18-2008, 07:57 AM
From John Fay:



http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/2008/05/reds-4-indians-2.asp


It clearly is not an issue of arbitration, but simply one of playing time. I just can't see how it makes any sense to have Patterson starting over Bruce.

If its not arb clock and its playing time, then its number 600 IMO. Its obvious who needs to sit to most improve this team and its not the Patterson/Freel combo. I think the team is waiting for number 600 to either move Griffey or to approach him about a bench role. Griffey can PH and play occassionally. In late June, the Reds play 9 Road Games against AL teams and Griffey can DH during that time. Maybe he'll warm to the role and agree to a deal after that.

I actually think this is where we will see the value of Dusty. I actually think he will be able to talk Frankly with Griffey about moving to the next stage of his career (either bench or DH) with the in game cred with the players to get Griffey's attention. I don't see Jerry Narron or Pete MacKanin getting Griffey's ear for such a conversation.

fearofpopvol1
05-18-2008, 07:33 PM
Bruce was 2-4 today with another home run.

It's pretty clear he's beaten down the door to get the call-up. I just don't see how Jocketty is going to be able to keep him down there after super-2 status passes. Dude is OPS'ing over 1.300 in May.

Superdude
05-18-2008, 07:36 PM
What is super 2?

Will M
05-18-2008, 07:42 PM
I can't buy what Jocketty is saying. He's too smart. There is no "figuring it out" if it's just a playing time issue. You DFA Patterson, move Freel back to the super sub role, and you write Jay Bruce into the starting lineup 4 of every 5 days. Along those lines it can't be a Patterson contract issue. It's a one year deal for a crappy, not part of the present or future player. You're eating that money whether he's on the roster or not.

It has to either be a Dusty/Jocketty veteran love issue, an arbitration issue, or a "Bruce needs to learn a bit more" issue. The first two pretty much make me angry, and I can live with the third until maybe the all-star break...and if he keeps hitting well, no longer.

DFA Patterson? You can't be serious. He is a GREAT defensive centerfielder whose OPS is ~.032 below the norm for centerfielder ( .708 vs .740 ).
Bruce replaces Griffey not Patterson.

If Jr broke his ankle and never played again the Reds would be a better team.

Will M
05-18-2008, 07:43 PM
What is super 2?

a player who gets 2 years at whatever the team will pay & 4 years of arbitration ( instead of 3 + 3 )

LoganBuck
05-18-2008, 11:30 PM
DFA Patterson? You can't be serious. He is a GREAT defensive centerfielder whose OPS is ~.032 below the norm for centerfielder ( .708 vs .740 ).
Bruce replaces Griffey not Patterson.

If Jr broke his ankle and never played again the Reds would be a better team.

Patterson's OPS is .685 or .055 below the norm. Which is substantial. He should not be leading off, or in the starting lineup, or close enough to Dusty to give him the idea to be played. DFA Patterson and end the nightmare.

fearofpopvol1
05-18-2008, 11:35 PM
Patterson's OPS is .685 or .055 below the norm. Which is substantial. He should not be leading off, or in the starting lineup, or close enough to Dusty to give him the idea to be played. DFA Patterson and end the nightmare.

Patterson has his uses. If nothing else, he makes a good platoon partner. He plays great defense and he's quick on the basepads (pinch runner). If you're going to DFA anyone in favor of brining up Bruce, I would think Javy should be the prime candidate.

mbgrayson
05-18-2008, 11:57 PM
What is super 2?

From Fay's website the other day:


Here is the rule on Super 2s from Players Association website:

Q: When does a player become eligible for salary arbitration?
A: A player with three or more years of service, but less than six years, may file for salary arbitration. In addition, a player can be classified as a "Super Two" and be eligible for arbitration with less than three years of service. A player with at least two but less than three years of Major League service shall be eligible for salary arbitration if he has accumulated at least 86 days of service during the immediately preceding season and he ranks in the top 17 percent in total service in the class of Players who have at least two but less than three years of Major League service, however accumulated, but with at least 86 days of service accumulated during the immediately preceding season.

Because of the 17 percent clause, the date on Super 2s changes year-to-year.

Because of this 17% clause, there is no certain date when Bruce would be clear to come up. And remember, it's not just eligibility for arbitration that is at issue. After two years of arbitration eligibility, a player can become a free agent. So these extra few weeks in Louisville can make the difference of being able to keep Bruce for a whole additional year.

WVRedsFan
05-19-2008, 12:06 AM
I hope and pray to God that Bruce is a superstar that he's made out to be on this board. Otherwise, half this board will have to be put on suicide watch.

He is not the savior, no matter what anyone thinks. Count me among those that are hopeful, but folks rookies are rookies. We saw the next Cyh Young (Johnny Cueto) have his problems and if I remember correctly, a Mr. Bruce had his in Spring Training.

He's going to be great, o doubt, but this constant, daily cry for his coming up is really over the top. And one more thing. I heard the same stuff when Dunn and Kearns were in the minors and now so many want to dump Dunn and crucify Kearns. I just shake my head.

dougdirt
05-19-2008, 12:11 AM
I hope and pray to God that Bruce is a superstar that he's made out to be on this board. Otherwise, half this board will have to be put on suicide watch.

He is not the savior, no matter what anyone thinks. Count me among those that are hopeful, but folks rookies are rookies. We saw the next Cyh Young (Johnny Cueto) have his problems and if I remember correctly, a Mr. Bruce had his in Spring Training.

He's going to be great, o doubt, but this constant, daily cry for his coming up is really over the top. And one more thing. I heard the same stuff when Dunn and Kearns were in the minors and now so many want to dump Dunn and crucify Kearns. I just shake my head.

Who annointed Cueto Cy Young? He wasn't even the best pitching prospect on the team and has never been any kind of 'super prospect' just a real good one. That said, he has a 1.19 WHIP on the year and is striking out more than a batter per inning. If he can figure out how to keep the ball in the yard even just slightly better, he is going to be real good.

WVRedsFan
05-19-2008, 12:19 AM
Who annointed Cueto Cy Young? He wasn't even the best pitching prospect on the team and has never been any kind of 'super prospect' just a real good one. That said, he has a 1.19 WHIP on the year and is striking out more than a batter per inning. If he can figure out how to keep the ball in the yard even just slightly better, he is going to be real good.

Lot's of people were. Have you fogotten the endless posts about him? The things that stick out for me is not WHIP or whatever statistic of the day, but this one: 33 earned runs allowed in 51 innings (5.75 ERA). I think he'll be a pitching star, but placing your hopes on unproven rookies is foolhardy at best. Johnny, Jay, Edinson, and many more will be good in the future (and Volquez already is), but these kids are still learning. As it should be.

Cyclone792
05-21-2008, 09:23 PM
Hmmm ... maybe Fay's been reading the board again, or more specifically, my posts ...

Here's what I said in another thread last week;


I'd be shocked if the Reds don't hold out to clear Super Two status since it's already mid May and there's very little time remaining. By my calculations, it looks like the "safe" date to call Bruce up would be May 24th, a Saturday when the Reds are in San Diego. If they waited that long then they'd likely then elect to hold off until returning home on Tuesday, May 27th when the Pirates roll in.

The Reds have held out for seven weeks now on Bruce; I'm thinking they'll keep their hands off the trigger for two more weeks. But stranger things have happened so you never know.

FWIW, it looks like the Brewers held out in calling up Ryan Braun last year until quite possibly the very exact "safe" day. Braun was hitting .342/.418/.701/1.119 in AAA and the Brewers called him up on May 25th.

And here's Fay today:

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/


Walt Jocketty joined the Reds in the L.A. today. So my first question to him was any significance to showing up now? The short answer: No. He had planned to be on the whole trip, but he had to attend a memorial service in the St. Louis and a funeral in Minneapolis.

He did take a side trip on the way to St. Louis to see Jay Bruce play at Louisville.

"I told him to be patient," Jocketty said. "What he's doing is not going unnoticed. Keep working. He went out and went 2-for-4 with a home run."

I'm saying with prediction that Bruce gets the call when the Reds return home. Again, that's just a hunch.

Jocketty saw left-hander Matt Maloney throw. "He looked very good," Jocketty said.

Daniel Herrera, the little lefty the Reds got in the Josh Hamilton deal, also threw. Herrera was 0.61 ERA and has allowed only eight hits 14 2/3 innings. His out pitch is a screwball.

"Everything is slow," Jocketty said. "But he keeps hitters off balance."

By my calculations, Bruce will clear the safe date to avoid becoming a Super Two this Saturday. The Reds then return home next Tuesday, May 24, to begin a homestand against the Pirates and Braves. It's the first logical date to call Bruce up and avoid Super Two status, and it's now the date Fay believes the Reds will call Bruce up.

Just think, Jay Bruce could be playing center field in GABP six days from right now.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2008, 09:27 PM
I can't remember if I've already posted this on here but here it is anyway:

A rival scout’s assessment of Bruce after watching him several times in Louisville: “Why isn’t he in Cincinnati?

“I’ve seen very few balls jump off the bat they way they do on Bruce. I saw him pull an inside fastball from a lefthanded pitcher over the right field fence. I saw him hit a slider into the left field seats. I saw him hit a change-up that was still on the rise when it cleared the center field fence.

“I had been told he couldn’t play center field. He can, better than anybody they have now. He can play all three outfield positions. He has everything but speed and his instincts are so good he gets great jumps on balls.

“I never saw a ball go over his head and stay in the park and I never saw one fall in front of him and he caught everything in the gaps,” he said. “He’d be playing center field for my team right now and we have a good center fielder.”

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

SMcGavin
05-21-2008, 09:31 PM
Its obvious who needs to sit to most improve this team and its not the Patterson/Freel combo.

This is the truth. Every Reds starter is above average at either offense or defense, except Griffey who is way below average at both right now. It's a shame, because KGJ is clearly not going to be benched, but Bruce in for Griffey would make a significant difference for this team in my opinion.

*BaseClogger*
05-21-2008, 09:34 PM
This is the truth. Every Reds starter is above average at either offense or defense, except Griffey who is way below average at both right now. It's a shame, because KGJ is clearly not going to be benched, but Bruce in for Griffey would make a significant difference for this team in my opinion.

"Understatement of the season" :p:

Cyclone792
05-21-2008, 09:36 PM
Bruce hasn't updated his blog in three months, but his last update is interesting ...

http://www.yardbarker.com/users/JayBruce


What's up everyone? Sorry I haven't been writing too often lately but I've been busy with traveling and getting down to Florida. Today, being that spring training is about to start I'm going to write a little about the importance of my agent, Matt Sosnick. Having a reliable agent means everything when it comes to taking the pressure off of yourself and just making life much easier for you during both the season and the offseason. I can call Matt about anything imaginable and he will help me out with it. A few months before the draft back in 2005, I was with the Boras agency. All that I had heard about them was great things, and seeing some of the players they had was an attraction from the start. After a while things weren't working out too well between us, for no other reason than the difference in opinions we had about certain things. The Boras corporation is great for certain people, just not for me. When I switched over to Sosnick Cobbe, I saw the immediate differences I was looking for in an agent. They treat everyone in the company like family, and they are there for anything I need. I feel very strongly about this agency and its presence in the baseball world for many years to come. You guys should check out the website and learn a little more about the agency and the players that are represented.

Matt Sosnick is the agent that Jerry Crasnick followed around for the focus of his 2005 book License to Deal: A Season on the Run with a Maverick Baseball Agent (http://www.amazon.com/License-Deal-Season-Maverick-Baseball/dp/1594860246/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1211420009&sr=8-2)

It's a pretty good read, and you'll get to know Bruce's agent fairly well through Crasnick's eyes. There's also a pretty humorous passage in there regarding Chris Gruler too, humorous because it's rather ironic.

OnBaseMachine
05-22-2008, 12:42 AM
Jay Bruce coming back to Reds soon
Listen to this article or download audio file.Click-2-Listen

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Thursday, May 22, 2008

LOS ANGELES — It is like an old movie poster: "Coming Soon, Jay Bruce."

Cincinnati Reds general manager Walt Jocketty saw Bruce play Sunday in Louisville, "Saw him ground out twice and hit a home run over the right field fence."

So he knows, first hand, how well the 21-year-old outfielder is doing — ripping Triple-A pitching to shreds.

"If he keeps playing like this, we're going to have to get him up here some time soon," said Jocketty. "What we don't want to do is bring him up and not have him play."

There are cynics who believe Bruce is being held back so the Reds can save a year of arbitration. If he is called up before a certain date this year, the clock on arbitration starts immediately.

If they wait until that date, arbitration won't start until next year.

The dates? May 25? June 1? June 15?

"I honestly don't know that date," said Jocketty. "I've heard sometime in June but it doesn't play into anything."

Bruce is hitting .369 with 10 homers and 37 RBIs in 45 games. He also has 41 strikeouts.

Jocketty was in Dayton for the first time this week and saw parts of four baseball games that day. He saw some of a Dayton Dragons game, a University of Dayton game, a University of Cincinnati game and part of a Xavier University game.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/05/21/ddn052208spreds.html

reds44
05-22-2008, 12:47 AM
He's going to come up when the Reds come back from out west.

Watch.

LoganBuck
05-22-2008, 06:52 AM
He's going to come up when the Reds come back from out west.

Watch.

http://www.amazingkreskin.com/photoviews/event5.jpg

Matt700wlw
05-22-2008, 10:04 AM
Hal said last night, he wouldn't be shocked if he's brought up when they get home...




He should have been brought up March 31st.

REDREAD
05-22-2008, 10:40 AM
I may be the only one on the planet who feels this way, but I want to see Bruce stay at AAA at least mid-July.

.

I agree with you. The Reds have said they want Bruce working on his pitch selectivity. That seems a legitimate reason to give him more minor league reps.

There's no reason at all to rush Bruce up here. Just like there was no reason to rush Homer up last season.

REDREAD
05-22-2008, 10:47 AM
From John Fay:

It clearly is not an issue of arbitration, but simply one of playing time. I just can't see how it makes any sense to have Patterson starting over Bruce.

Wonder if Walt is trying to trade Jr or Dunn, then call Bruce up. Maybe Walt is also shopping Freel/Patterson as well.
That would make sense. Even if it takes until the end of July to get the trade done, it makes sense..

Like it or not, Wayne's CF platoon (Freel and Patterson) is making a combined 6-7 million.. If you bench them in favor of Bruce, it makes it hard to trade Freel/Patterson.

WVRedsFan
05-22-2008, 11:11 AM
I agree with you. The Reds have said they want Bruce working on his pitch selectivity. That seems a legitimate reason to give him more minor league reps.

There's no reason at all to rush Bruce up here. Just like there was no reason to rush Homer up last season.

That makes three of us. Everyone thinks that Bruce = instant offense, but the trouble with that is no one else is hitting so you might get a few HR's, but if he hits a double, thre's no one to drive him in. Defensively, it would make a difference, but not enough to see the winning pct. go up that much.

I can remember the old line, "_______is not your savior." You can fill in the blank with Bruce.

flyer85
05-22-2008, 11:14 AM
That makes three of us. Everyone thinks that Bruce = instant offense, but the trouble with that is no one else is hitting so you might get a few HR's, but if he hits a double, thre's no one to drive him in. if he was batting behind Dunn it might make a difference. Dunn was on base 8 times in the 3 game Dodger series.

WVRedsFan
05-22-2008, 11:18 AM
if he was batting behind Dunn it might make a difference. Dunn was on base 8 times in the 3 game Dodger series.True, but of those 8 times on base, most were walks or singles. A double on moves the slow-footed Dunn to third where he most likely would stay.

Cyclone792
05-22-2008, 11:19 AM
if he was batting behind Dunn it might make a difference. Dunn was on base 8 times in the 3 game Dodger series.

That means Jay Bruce would have to bat 8th. :evil:

westofyou
05-22-2008, 11:25 AM
True, but of those 8 times on base, most were walks or singles. A double on moves the slow-footed Dunn to third where he most likely would stay.

Yeah we wouldn't want any doubles with Dunn on base.

BTW Dunn went 1st to home 6 out of the 10 chances he had last season.

Falls City Beer
05-22-2008, 11:29 AM
Yeah we wouldn't want any doubles with Dunn on base.

BTW Dunn went 1st to home 6 out of the 10 chances he had last season.

Never understood the "Dunn's slow" argument. The guy's got pretty good wheels for being 6'6".

WVRedsFan
05-22-2008, 11:36 AM
Never understood the "Dunn's slow" argument. The guy's got pretty good wheels for being 6'6".
True. I meant comparatively. Of course, our third base coach might send him every time :).

The point is, though, that I can't see him making that much of a difference unless a lot of other things change. Of course, I hope I'm wrong.

Always Red
05-22-2008, 11:41 AM
Yeah we wouldn't want any doubles with Dunn on base.

BTW Dunn went 1st to home 6 out of the 10 chances he had last season.

Hey, there's no need to let facts get in the way! :D

Cyclone792
05-22-2008, 11:48 AM
Never understood the "Dunn's slow" argument. The guy's got pretty good wheels for being 6'6".

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=970010&postcount=56


when i first moved down here, i walked to UC and sat down for a few minutes and watched the football team practice. there was a tall braod dude (#51?) and a shorter moderate sized guy (#34) lined up side-by-side for a 40 yard dash.

without fail, the tall guy looked like he was dogging it, but the short guy looked like he was going all out. the tall dude won the race by a little more than a full stride.

almost all tall guys look slower than they really are when they run.

OnBaseMachine
05-22-2008, 02:09 PM
• Phenom time: Any day now, the Reds will reach the point in the season when it's probably safe to call up their favorite phenom, Jay Bruce, without worrying about whether he'll accumulate enough service time to qualify for arbitration as a "super two" player after the 2010 season. But one friend of owner Robert Castellini says that always was an overrated factor in the decision to send Bruce to the minor leagues. "He's not into that," Castellini's friend said. "All he wants to do is win -- and as soon as possible." But if that's true, how much longer can the Reds keep Bruce hanging out in Louisville, where he has 10 homers, a .661 slugging percentage, a .369 batting average and as many extra-base hits (24) as Junior Griffey and Corey Patterson combined?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings

Chip R
05-22-2008, 02:25 PM
Never understood the "Dunn's slow" argument. The guy's got pretty good wheels for being 6'6".


Like a lot of big guys he's a little slow getting going but once he does get going, he can run pretty well.

Chip R
05-22-2008, 02:49 PM
I wonder if an OF got hurt, say Dunn, God Forbid, nothing serious but something like a hamstring injury if the Reds would actually call up Bruce. If it were Dunn, would Bruce play LF or CF?

REDREAD
05-22-2008, 03:00 PM
BTW Dunn went 1st to home 6 out of the 10 chances he had last season.

Not disputing, just asking for clarification.. How did they figure out that he had 10 chances to score from 1b last season?

REDREAD
05-22-2008, 03:03 PM
The point is, though, that I can't see him making that much of a difference unless a lot of other things change. Of course, I hope I'm wrong.

Yes, that's my take as well. Bruce isn't going to change the W-L percentage of this team significantly. He certainly isn't going to improve the team by 15-20 wins (which we'd need to contend).

So why rush him? He might be an improvement over Patterson or Jr, but it's not going to change the fate of this season. Wait until he's ready.

Cyclone792
05-22-2008, 03:08 PM
I wonder if an OF got hurt, say Dunn, God Forbid, nothing serious but something like a hamstring injury if the Reds would actually call up Bruce. If it were Dunn, would Bruce play LF or CF?

If Dunn pulled a hammy, then he'd be day-to-day for a few days while Freel, Patterson, and Hairston all got more playing time in his spot. Then when Tuesday rolls around, it'd be Dunn to the DL retroactively with Bruce coming up.

Chip R
05-22-2008, 03:09 PM
If Dunn pulled a hammy, then he'd be day-to-day for a few days while Freel, Patterson, and Hairston all got more playing time in his spot.


That's what I'm thinking. Plus if the Hop is healthy, he would be in the mix too. Call me crazy but I don't think Bruce is coming up until Jr. or Dunn are traded.

Cyclone792
05-22-2008, 03:13 PM
That's what I'm thinking. Plus if the Hop is healthy, he would be in the mix too. Call me crazy but I don't think Bruce is coming up until Jr. or Dunn are traded.

I think they're waiting until Tuesday, but that's just my best guess. I really think the Reds will handle Bruce the same way the Brewers handled Ryan Braun last year. Milwaukee pretty much waited until the magic date, then Braun was called up.

Jocketty may say he doesn't know when the magic Super Two date is, but he's just putting the PR face on with those quotes. He knows when the date is, everyone in the Reds' front office knows when the magic day is, and Matt Sosnick and Jay Bruce both probably also know when the magic day is too.

Think of it like this: the Super Two date is worth several million dollars to an organization. They'd be fools not to know precisely when it is.

RedlegJake
05-22-2008, 03:14 PM
Call me crazy but I just don't see where Bruce needs any more time at AAA. Now that his Super 2 staus is soon to pass get him up and stick him in CF every night. The worse case scenario for Bruce is better than the best Patterson can bring.

westofyou
05-22-2008, 03:20 PM
Not disputing, just asking for clarification.. How did they figure out that he had 10 chances to score from 1b last season?

It was in the 2008 Bill James Handbook, they have baserunning stats.

OnBaseMachine
05-22-2008, 03:20 PM
Yes, that's my take as well. Bruce isn't going to change the W-L percentage of this team significantly. He certainly isn't going to improve the team by 15-20 wins (which we'd need to contend).

So why rush him? He might be an improvement over Patterson or Jr, but it's not going to change the fate of this season. Wait until he's ready.

He's OPSing over 1.050 in AAA. I'd say he's ready.

Matt700wlw
05-22-2008, 03:23 PM
Yes, that's my take as well. Bruce isn't going to change the W-L percentage of this team significantly. He certainly isn't going to improve the team by 15-20 wins (which we'd need to contend).

So why rush him? He might be an improvement over Patterson or Jr, but it's not going to change the fate of this season. Wait until he's ready.

He is ready.

membengal
05-22-2008, 03:23 PM
And who cares if he improves the team by only 1 game?

The salient question is whether this team is improved with Jay Bruce on it?

Well, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.

He needs to be here. As soon as is possible.

Will M
05-22-2008, 03:31 PM
Castellini says he wants to win now but Bruce sits in AAA. he should have been up 10 days ago.

Chip R
05-22-2008, 03:41 PM
I think they're waiting until Tuesday, but that's just my best guess. I really think the Reds will handle Bruce the same way the Brewers handled Ryan Braun last year. Milwaukee pretty much waited until the magic date, then Braun was called up.

Jocketty may say he doesn't know when the magic Super Two date is, but he's just putting the PR face on with those quotes. He knows when the date is, everyone in the Reds' front office knows when the magic day is, and Matt Sosnick and Jay Bruce both probably also know when the magic day is too.

Think of it like this: the Super Two date is worth several million dollars to an organization. They'd be fools not to know precisely when it is.


I believe you when you say that Super 2 is an issue but where's he going to play if he comes up here after Memorial Day? Besides, Dusty's head will explode if he has to put Bruce in CF. One part of Dusty wants the CF leading off but the other part won't let him bat a rookie leadoff. WWHAD?

Matt700wlw
05-22-2008, 03:44 PM
At this point, I would try Bruce leading off...


Ok, maybe I wouldn't.

BRM
05-22-2008, 03:45 PM
At this point, I would try Bruce leading off...


Ok, maybe I wouldn't.

If the choice for who to leadoff is Patterson or Bruce, I'll take Bruce.

Will M
05-22-2008, 04:00 PM
RF Bruce
SS Janish
1B Votto
3B EE
LF Dunn
2B Phillips
C Bako/Ross
CF Patterson/Freel

bucksfan2
05-22-2008, 04:16 PM
Castellini says he wants to win now but Bruce sits in AAA. he should have been up 10 days ago.

I really don't think Castellini knows what he wants right now. Saing he wants to win now is more of a PR move than anything if you ask me. IMO he is making the moves that he is accustomed to making in his business ventures that just corresponding to success on the field.

I look at the reds right now and wonder when someone (Jocketty) steps in and says to Dusty "don't lead of Patterson anymore". Or when Dusty goes to Jocketty and says "Get me Bruce". It just seems as if there are some fairly simple moves that could be made that the Reds won't do.

Will M
05-22-2008, 04:23 PM
I really don't think Castellini knows what he wants right now. Saing he wants to win now is more of a PR move than anything if you ask me. IMO he is making the moves that he is accustomed to making in his business ventures that just corresponding to success on the field.

I look at the reds right now and wonder when someone (Jocketty) steps in and says to Dusty "don't lead of Patterson anymore". Or when Dusty goes to Jocketty and says "Get me Bruce". It just seems as if there are some fairly simple moves that could be made that the Reds won't do.

well said.

Cyclone792
05-22-2008, 04:26 PM
I believe you when you say that Super 2 is an issue but where's he going to play if he comes up here after Memorial Day? Besides, Dusty's head will explode if he has to put Bruce in CF. One part of Dusty wants the CF leading off but the other part won't let him bat a rookie leadoff. WWHAD?

Dusty will be following orders from the unspoken mandate that Bruce plays center field, though it would be funny to see Dusty's head explode too. ;) Griffey controls if he gets traded. Dunn also largely controls if he gets traded given how his partial no-trade clause is setup.

I see Corey Patterson losing his starting job, and I certainly won't be disappointed when that happens.

Will M
05-22-2008, 05:48 PM
Dusty will be following orders from the unspoken mandate that Bruce plays center field, though it would be funny to see Dusty's head explode too. ;) Griffey controls if he gets traded. Dunn also largely controls if he gets traded given how his partial no-trade clause is setup.

I see Corey Patterson losing his starting job, and I certainly won't be disappointed when that happens.

Patterson has been ugly offensively.
Jr stinks in every facet of the game.

Honestly Bruce replaces one & ??? replaces the other.
We would likely be better with Freel in RF and Bruce in CF.
I can't believe I want Freel to play more.

Kc61
05-22-2008, 05:52 PM
Let Patterson cover the huge centerfield in San Diego this weekend. But Bruce needs to be in centerfield against the Pirates next Tuesday night. The Reds desperately need another bat in this lineup and, unless Manny Ramirez suddenly shows up in a Reds uniform, Bruce would seem the logical choice.

Bruce may eventually be slated to replace Griffey in right, I don't care. His time has come and if the open slot is centerfield, put him in centerfield.

Will M
05-22-2008, 06:00 PM
Let Patterson cover the huge centerfield in San Diego this weekend. But Bruce needs to be in centerfield against the Pirates next Tuesday night. The Reds desperately need another bat in this lineup and, unless Manny Ramirez suddenly shows up in a Reds uniform, Bruce would seem the logical choice.

Bruce may eventually be slated to replace Griffey in right, I don't care. His time has come and if the open slot is centerfield, put him in centerfield.

the 'open slot' isn't in CF. it is in RF. Jr is terrible. If he never played again the Reds would be a better team.

Defensively Dunn-Bruce-Griffey just doesn't get it done.
I am pretty sick of seeing a terrible Reds defense night after night.

Freel, yes Freel is out OPSing Jr and plays a better RF.
Dunn-Bruce-Freel or Dunn-Freel-Bruce is better than any outfield that includes Griffey.

RedsManRick
05-22-2008, 06:39 PM
On what basis are people claiming that Bruce isn't a CF? I just don't understand this. Yes, I've read the scouting reports which say his long term spot is in RF. Well, my long term spot is in a pair of 38 waist jeans. That doesn't mean I'm going to get rid of my 34s tonight.

Yes, Dunn-Bruce-Griffey isn't a good OF. The reality is that Dunn-ANYBODY-Griffey is a poor defensive OF. By all accounts, Bruce is a plus CF as of today. That doesn't mean we should go out and sign a defensively challenged RF, but moving him directly to RF misses a great opportunity to get great production from CF while making it significantly easier to find a bat to play RF (EE? Rosales? Dorn? Cumberland? Frazier? Matt Murton?).

REDREAD
05-22-2008, 06:44 PM
It was in the 2008 Bill James Handbook, they have baserunning stats.

Ok, but how do they determine the times where a runner at 1b is a scoring opportunity?

It seems not to happen very often, since Dunn only had 10 attempts. Just curious.

westofyou
05-22-2008, 07:00 PM
Ok, but how do they determine the times where a runner at 1b is a scoring opportunity?

It seems not to happen very often, since Dunn only had 10 attempts. Just curious.

Create standards and examine the data.

Here's an article (http://www.amazinavenue.com/story/2007/11/16/13240/862) on it, if you want detailed info, you'll probably have to buy the book.

Spring~Fields
05-22-2008, 07:47 PM
Yes, that's my take as well. Bruce isn't going to change the W-L percentage of this team significantly. He certainly isn't going to improve the team by 15-20 wins (which we'd need to contend).

So why rush him? He might be an improvement over Patterson or Jr, but it's not going to change the fate of this season. Wait until he's ready.

Why wait, get him some major league experience this year since it is indicate that the team isn't going to improve, get him mlb experience this year so he is ready for next season and so we don't have to listen to Bruce doesn't have much major league experience as the next excuse.

Bruce is as ready now as most of the Reds players are now, maybe more if you consider Patterson, Freel, Hopper, Hairston and Griffey. DFA Valentin, use Freel and Hairston as utility players and Patterson as a late inning replacement.

Who on the offensively challenged Reds isn't he more ready than?
Who on the defensively challenged Reds isn't he more ready than? You'll give me two maybe three players of the thirteen position players.

mth123
05-23-2008, 06:08 AM
the 'open slot' isn't in CF. it is in RF. Jr is terrible. If he never played again the Reds would be a better team.

Defensively Dunn-Bruce-Griffey just doesn't get it done.
I am pretty sick of seeing a terrible Reds defense night after night.

Freel, yes Freel is out OPSing Jr and plays a better RF.
Dunn-Bruce-Freel or Dunn-Freel-Bruce is better than any outfield that includes Griffey.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

gm
05-23-2008, 01:01 PM
Dunn went 1st to home 6 out of the 10 chances he had last season.

And the opponent's catcher cringed 10 out of 10 times

Spring~Fields
05-23-2008, 02:08 PM
Patterson has been ugly offensively.
Jr stinks in every facet of the game.

Honestly Bruce replaces one & ??? replaces the other.
We would likely be better with Freel in RF and Bruce in CF.
I can't believe I want Freel to play more.

Maybe Bruce could play short-center :laugh:

I don't think that the present contract and past great in right is going to sit for Bruce. I don't want to write this but, I really don't see a place for him to play, unless they ditch one of Freel, Patterson, or Valentin. Patterson would probably stay because he does have a defensive skill over the other two.

redsfan4445
05-24-2008, 12:01 AM
during the Rain delay they interviewed Hal McCoy on FSN.. he was asked if he had a feel that moves will be made soon and he said that the Reds see Bruce as a corner outfielder, so a move has to be made to get him up here.. so thats either Jr or Dunn.. and he feels something will be done

GAC
05-24-2008, 12:17 AM
during the Rain delay they interviewed Hal McCoy on FSN.. he was asked if he had a feel that moves will be made soon and he said that the Reds see Bruce as a corner outfielder, so a move has to be made to get him up here.. so thats either Jr or Dunn.. and he feels something will be done

Yep. Saw the same interview. And that is what stuck out to me.... this FO sees Bruce in one of the corner OF slots, not CF. You only bring Bruce up to start him. And they have two guys currently in those corner slots that are "question marks" right now. Question marks in the sense - are we going to retain the one (Dunn)?.... and how do we handle the other (Jr)?

As much as we, the fans, are screaming about Jr and his ever-declining performance/numbers.... and this FO (and manager) see the same that we do (lets don't fool ourselves that they don't)..... they can't trade the guy, and out of respect for Jr (which Dusty has hinted at) they aren't going to release him or bench him. They are not going to treat Jr that callously.

I sincerely believe that this FO wants Bruce up here, and that they are trying to work some sort of deal/trade out to make room for him (that's the problem). But looking at who is involved (Dunn, Jr), it is easier said then done IMO.

If they are adamant about wanting to get Bruce up here - and the intent is so he starts in a corner OF spot, not sit the bench - then a starter in one of those OF corner spots has to go. It would not surprised me to see them trying to trade Adam Dunn, who appears to be the most viable option at this moment.

AmarilloRed
05-24-2008, 12:26 AM
during the Rain delay they interviewed Hal McCoy on FSN.. he was asked if he had a feel that moves will be made soon and he said that the Reds see Bruce as a corner outfielder, so a move has to be made to get him up here.. so thats either Jr or Dunn.. and he feels something will be done

What has Bruce done to convince the Reds he is not a center fielder? From all I can see, he has spent most of his time playing center in the minors and he appears to have done it well. A trade may happen, but it is a long shot. Play Bruce in center for this year. We can move him to a corner spot if necessary after this year.

Blitz Dorsey
05-24-2008, 12:46 AM
The more Ryan Freel gets picked off (or commits some other baserunning blunder) and the more Corey Patterson swings the bat, the better Jay Bruce looks as a CF.

Then again, the more Griffey plays, the better Jay Bruce looks as a RF. It's really a quandry I tell ya.

OnBaseMachine
05-24-2008, 02:11 AM
Top prospect has no magic date for call-up
Listen to this article or download audio file.Click-2-Listen

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Saturday, May 24, 2008

SAN DIEGO — For those who believe there is a magic date, such as June 1, when the Cincinnati Reds can call up Jay Bruce without starting his arbitration clock, there is no date.

It's fluid.

As Reds Assistant General Manager Bob Miller explains, "With Bruce being a Super Two player, there are several factors that play into it so that there is no set date. Could be the middle of June, but we don't know."

As for holding back Bruce to save an arbitration year, Miller said, "If that's true, why didn't we hold back Johnny Cueto? He is in the same situation."

Amazingly, the last-place Reds and last-place San Diego Padres have the same scenario. The Padres, too, have an outfielder as their top prospect, an outfielder tearing apart Triple-A pitchers who media and fans want to see called up.

He is Chase Headley, but when the Padres called up four players Thursday, May 22, he wasn't among them.

Padres General Manager Kevin Towers sounds a lot like his Reds counterpart Walt Jocketty when he says, "He will be up here. I hate to set a timetable, but he is going to be up very shortly."

Towers makes a strong point that covers the Reds' situation, too. Headley is 24, and Bruce is only 21.

"The environment (last place) is not a very good environment right now," Towers said. "You don't want to be looked on as a savior. Probably the ideal time is if we come to the conclusion we can't turn this thing around this season. The ideal time is when there is no pressure."

Actually, without being prompted, Towers brought up Bruce to the San Diego Union-Tribune.

"You've got Jay Bruce hitting .330 (.366 actually, Kevin) for the Cincinnati Reds (Triple-A) right now. Why is he not up for Cincinnati? They've had their struggles. Each and every situation is different."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/05/24/ddn052408spredsnotes.html

Caveat Emperor
05-24-2008, 03:32 AM
Then again, the more Griffey plays, the better Jay Bruce looks as a RF. It's really a quandry I tell ya.

Not to sound like FCB, but I'd almost be willing to guarantee you that Jr. posts a better season OBP than Jay Bruce. Bruce is a real threat to hit .300, but only OBP .315-.320.

People are ready to show Jr. the door, but they're ready to replace him with an out-machine in the lineup.

GAC
05-24-2008, 06:28 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say (hope) that Jocketty is using this year, for the most part, as a period of acclimation with the Reds (players, system, etc) to evaluate what he has (and hasn't).

He is on record as saying that there is no quick fix for this team and that it's going to take patience. I hope Bob C is (was) listening because this is "his" guy.

We want a winner. Bob C wants to "Win Now". In order to achieve that end Jocketty can't be knee-jerk. He is in a catch-22 situation right now with Jr (declining skills/performance) and Dunn (contract).

Rushing Bruce up here - who this FO appears to have targeted for a corner OF spot - is not going to salvage this season IMO. And I don't want him sitting the bench either. If they are entertaining bringing Bruce up, it's to start, not be a part time player. And in order to do so, the situation with one of these corner OFers has to be rectified soon.

Some contend that Bruce can play CF. I'm sure he can. But most of the scouting reports I've read on Bruce say that he best projects as a corner OFer. One option I've heard suggested is bring him up and let him play CF for the remainder of the season (that would take care of the Patterson problem). If, in this FO's mind, they don't have him slotted as a CFer, then they aren't going to do that.

It certainly doesn't address the problem of a Jr in RF either. A Jr who is basically untradeable and in the driver's seat, and a manager who, out of respect for who Jr was (and what he is pursuing - #600) is going to favor him.

It just appears this FO (and manager) are going to let Jr go out on his own terms.

mth123
05-24-2008, 07:29 AM
Not to sound like FCB, but I'd almost be willing to guarantee you that Jr. posts a better season OBP than Jay Bruce. Bruce is a real threat to hit .300, but only OBP .315-.320.

People are ready to show Jr. the door, but they're ready to replace him with an out-machine in the lineup.

So what?

If JR doesn't hit 3 home runs every day he still hurts the team on balance with his unprecedented defensive concessions which basically give the other team a hit on any routine fly to RF. He stands in a deeper position than normal and goes back to the wall ok, but coming in its only two step range. That doesn't even get him to where a normal RF would be standing in the first place. His defense is absolutely awful. Don't like Bruce? Freel, Hopper, or any run of the mill guy that they pick-up off of waivers would be an improvement at this point.

Two things this team doesn't need to see at this point is Junior with a glove on his hand or David Ross in the game at all.

mth123
05-24-2008, 07:33 AM
It certainly doesn't address the problem of a Jr in RF either. A Jr who is basically untradeable and in the driver's seat, and a manager who, out of respect for who Jr was (and what he is pursuing - #600) is going to favor him.

It just appears this FO (and manager) are going to let Jr go out on his own terms.

That is why I laugh at the idea that management is trying to sell us on the "do whatever it takes to win" crap. I'll take it seriously when JR is no longer an option on defense.

GAC
05-24-2008, 08:52 AM
That is why I laugh at the idea that management is trying to sell us on the "do whatever it takes to win" crap. I'll take it seriously when JR is no longer an option on defense.

Exactly!

Don't tell me, as an owner and manager, how much you HATE losing while you continue to support (prop up) obvious pieces that are proving to be detrimental to that objective.

To quote John Lennon...

"No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of tricky dicky
Is gonna mother hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocketful of hope." ;)

Look - we all have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for what Jr has accomplished in his career. And I said the same thing with Barry Larkin. Players get old, they lose it. It's not their fault. It is their fault though when they, as well as management, refuse to acknowledge the inevitable and operate in denial to the detriment of the team, and the objective of winning.

Do I think less of, or no longer respect, players who were recently released like Jim Edmonds and Frank Thomas? I've been following this game for over 40 years. And in that time I've seen players from Mays to Mantle, and including many great Reds players, realize due to age and declining skills that they need to hang it up. Some try to hang on a bit longer then they should, and I can understand that pride issue with athletes. It's hard to let go.

And that's when management has to do the right thing, make those hard decisions if it's all about winning in the first place, and cut ties.

That's what this FO (and manager) lacks because they are operating under this delusion of obviously wanting to allow Jr to exit on his own terms, while capitalizing on his quest for #600. If he doesn't achieve that objective by the AS break then what does that say?

But you've got Dusty Baker making statements like "Jr just needs to string together some hits" - or - "wait till the weather gets hot".

Maybe Dusty still believes this?....

"[The heat] is a factor in Atlanta, it's a factor in Cincinnati, it's a factor in Philadelphia. We have to mix and match and try to keep guys fresh and try to have different lineups . . . I've got a pretty good idea [how it's done]. My teams usually play better in the second half than they do in the first half. I think that's because the way we spot guys and use everybody."

"Personally, I like to play in the heat. It's easier for me. It's easier for most Latin guys and easier for most minority people. You don't find too many brothers in New Hampshire and Maine and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, right? We were brought over here for the heat, right? Isn't that history? Weren't we brought over because we could take the heat? Your skin color is more conducive to the heat than it is to the light-skinned people, right? You don't see brothers running around burnt and stuff, running around with white stuff on their ears and nose and stuff."

----------------------

But shut up Bob about winning now and how much losing disgusts you when you continue to condone some of what I call "miscarriages of justice" to take that field every day.

This season may turn into a bust with a few highlights (Volquez, etc). And this FO may decide they are going to not make any knee-jerk decisions, continue to watch and monitor various young players development, ride the storm out till the off-season and allow some of these situations (like Jr's) to take care of themselves.

As far as I'm concerned with my evaluation of Jocketty - this off-season will be very telling unless he works some monster deal at the trading deadline.

But with Jr - the options are either cut him, he retires after #600, or they just let him walk at season's end.

mth123
05-24-2008, 10:48 AM
But with Jr - the options are either cut him, he retires after #600, or they just let him walk at season's end.


Or cut or peddle Hatte and make JR the LHPH who never plays defense. He can DH in the 9 Games in AL parks next month.

OnBaseMachine
05-24-2008, 11:34 AM
Bruce's AAA numbers project to .321/.354/.551 - .905 OPS in the GABP. That's a huge improvement over Griff or Patterson. .

Cyclone792
05-24-2008, 11:36 AM
SAN DIEGO — For those who believe there is a magic date, such as June 1, when the Cincinnati Reds can call up Jay Bruce without starting his arbitration clock, there is no date.

It's fluid.

As Reds Assistant General Manager Bob Miller explains, "With Bruce being a Super Two player, there are several factors that play into it so that there is no set date. Could be the middle of June, but we don't know."

As for holding back Bruce to save an arbitration year, Miller said, "If that's true, why didn't we hold back Johnny Cueto? He is in the same situation."

More PR speak from the Reds, nothing more.

In other words, Bob, you're lying to us and we know it.

membengal
05-24-2008, 11:46 AM
It is now the highest of high comedy watching the Reds try and spin why Bruce isn't in the majors yet. It takes a special brand of stupid to work this hard to keep one of your best players off the roster...

Cyclone792
05-24-2008, 11:56 AM
http://fantasybaseball.usatoday.com/content/player.asp?sport=MLB&ID=4048


While Ryan Braun is guaranteed $45 million under the terms of his new contract, he'd earn an extra $6 million if he qualifies as a super-two player after 2009.

It's unlikely. One of the reasons the Brewers waited so long to call him up last year was because they didn't want to risk him becoming a super-two player. Under the terms of the deal, Braun gets a $2.3 million signing bonus, $455,000 this year, $745,000 next season, $1 million in 2010, $4 million in 2011, $6 million in 2012, $8.5 million in 2013, $10 million in 2014 and $12 million in 2015. The extra $6 million, if he qualifies, would be distributed between 2010 and 2013. Braun has a no-trade clause for the next four years, then a limited no-trade clause allowing him to block deals to 12 teams from 2012-13 and six teams from 2014-15.

FYI, Ryan Braun was called up on May 25th last year.

KronoRed
05-24-2008, 12:17 PM
I think the Reds, especially Dusty don't see a spot for Bruce right now, Patterson and JR are going nowhere and Dunn is still here, maybe it'll take a trade of Dunn to get Bruce up here and playing, of course that's ridiculous but hey..it's the Reds :D

Spring~Fields
05-24-2008, 01:13 PM
Top prospect has no magic date for call-up
Listen to this article or download audio file.Click-2-Listen

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Saturday, May 24, 2008

SAN DIEGO — For those who believe there is a magic date, such as June 1, when the Cincinnati Reds can call up Jay Bruce without starting his arbitration clock, there is no date.

It's fluid.

As Reds Assistant General Manager Bob Miller explains, "With Bruce being a Super Two player, there are several factors that play into it so that there is no set date. Could be the middle of June, but we don't know."

As for holding back Bruce to save an arbitration year, Miller said, "If that's true, why didn't we hold back Johnny Cueto? He is in the same situation."


The Reds aren't going to eat the "super two", that is the "super two" contracts in left field and right field, and it might be a reach for them to eat the other "super two" centerfielders contracts that they have in Patterson and Freel, especially when they seem to be fixated that Bruce is a right fielder even though he plays center more often in their organization.

Though they could let one of the super three catchers go, Valentin for example and then let some of the other "super two" combinations in the outfield sit while Bruce plays.

Spring~Fields
05-24-2008, 01:25 PM
Rushing Bruce up here - who this FO appears to have targeted for a corner OF spot - is not going to salvage this season IMO. And I don't want him sitting the bench either. If they are entertaining bringing Bruce up, it's to start, not be a part time player. And in order to do so, the situation with one of these corner OFers has to be rectified soon.

Some contend that Bruce can play CF. I'm sure he can. But most of the scouting reports I've read on Bruce say that he best projects as a corner OFer. One option I've heard suggested is bring him up and let him play CF for the remainder of the season (that would take care of the Patterson problem). If, in this FO's mind, they don't have him slotted as a CFer, then they aren't going to do that.



The Reds organization contradicts themselves, on one hand they suggest or imply Bruce to be a corner outfielder within their organization, yet within their organization under their control they have him play centerfield in the minors most of the time.

Apparently the truth is that Bruce can adequately play either and that other agenda stands in the way of Bruce playing on the current Reds team. I think that it is risky to assume that it would "take care of the Patterson problem", as he was brought in here for a reason, and I don't think that reason has gone away yet.

I don’t think the question is so much about getting Bruce playing time if he is called up.

I think that it would become a problem getting Hairston, Patterson and Freel playing time if Bruce was called up and played well.

Of course the Reds know that they could let a Valentin go, or give Griffey occasional days off or use Patterson for late inning defensive replacements and allow Bruce to play 6-7 innings or more, even Dunn once in awhile needs a day off, while Hairston and Freel can relieve in the infield.

Marc D
05-24-2008, 01:28 PM
Not to sound like FCB, but I'd almost be willing to guarantee you that Jr. posts a better season OBP than Jay Bruce. Bruce is a real threat to hit .300, but only OBP .315-.320.

People are ready to show Jr. the door, but they're ready to replace him with an out-machine in the lineup.


Worst case:
An out machine with no glove is replaced by an out machine with a glove. Net result=Reds are a better team for it.

Best case:
An out machine with no glove is replaced by a good hitter with a glove.
Net result=Reds are a better team for it.

I don't see anything that can be hurt except JR's feelings.

As GAC said, don't tell me you are trying to win while running JR out there everyday, batting 3rd, with Bruce in AAA.

Hoosier Red
05-24-2008, 01:36 PM
The thing about Bruce projecting to a corner outfielder doesn't really mean much for right now though.

He projects to a corner outfielder because as his body matures he is going to get bigger and stronger. Right now his skill set(which will mature over time) seems to be more geared towards a CF anyway.

mth123
05-24-2008, 03:34 PM
Worst case:
An out machine with no glove is replaced by an out machine with a glove. Net result=Reds are a better team for it.

Best case:
An out machine with no glove is replaced by a good hitter with a glove.
Net result=Reds are a better team for it.

I don't see anything that can be hurt except JR's feelings.

As GAC said, don't tell me you are trying to win while running JR out there everyday, batting 3rd, with Bruce in AAA.

Exactly right.

mth123
05-24-2008, 03:38 PM
The thing about Bruce projecting to a corner outfielder doesn't really mean much for right now though.

He projects to a corner outfielder because as his body matures he is going to get bigger and stronger. Right now his skill set(which will mature over time) seems to be more geared towards a CF anyway.

I think this is right too. I want Bruce in RF simply because I think the Patterson/Freel CF combo is better than Griffey. So leave them alone (except move Patterson down in the order) until another solution can be found. Bruce can't play both CF and RF and replacing Griffey improves the team more. Once that is done, then turn attention to CF.

GAC
05-25-2008, 06:53 AM
Or cut or peddle Hatte and make JR the LHPH who never plays defense. He can DH in the 9 Games in AL parks next month.

You only have one obstacle though..... Dusty Baker. Out of respect for Barry Bon...oops.... Jr....he is going to run that guy out there in RF, and pencil him in that #3 slot every day.

Jr just needs to get hot! :p:

RedsBaron
05-25-2008, 07:37 AM
I think this is right too. I want Bruce in RF simply because I think the Patterson/Freel CF combo is better than Griffey. So leave them alone (except move Patterson down in the order) until another solution can be found. Bruce can't play both CF and RF and replacing Griffey improves the team more. Once that is done, then turn attention to CF.

I have long been tired of the deference Reds management has given to Griffey. I respect Junior and I believe that some Reds fans have been unfairly critical of him, but he should not be starting, much less batting third. Yes, he was once great,but so what? If Johnny Bench decided to make a comeback at age 60, should that mean the Reds should automatically make JB their everyday catcher and bat him cleanup every game just because he was once great?
Jay Bruce should have been installed in the Reds lineup weeks ago.

GAC
05-25-2008, 07:50 AM
I have long been tired of the deference Reds management has given to Griffey. I respect Junior and I believe that some Reds fans have been unfairly critical of him, but he should not be starting, much less batting third. Yes, he was once great,but so what? If Johnny Bench decided to make a comeback at age 60, should that mean the Reds should automatically make JB their everyday catcher and bat him cleanup every game just because he was once great?
Jay Bruce should have been installed in the Reds lineup weeks ago.

It's time the peasants stormed the castle and tell the emperor he has no clothes on! :D

Always Red
05-25-2008, 08:27 AM
I don't see anything that can be hurt except JR's feelings.



That sums it up nicely.

KronoRed
05-25-2008, 12:10 PM
It's time the peasants stormed the castle and tell the emperor he has no clothes on! :D

You the ring leader comrade? :D

GAC
05-25-2008, 02:58 PM
You the ring leader comrade? :D

I'm primed and ready to lead the charge!

http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-17158223.jpg?size=572&uid=%7B2B46C319-7CEB-4D5E-8DE5-21BD7EFC31C3%7D

wheels
05-25-2008, 06:27 PM
I was told by Matt Maloney's girlfriend that Bruce is gonna probably be up when the Reds get home from the road trip.

I was talking to her about seeing Matt pitch thurs. afternoon here in Columbus, and that I was excited about seeing Jay Bruce. She told me not to expect him to be there.

Maybe a move's coming Monday. Maybe she's wrong, but she knows baseball as well as anyone....Who knows?

kaldaniels
05-25-2008, 06:37 PM
I was told by Matt Maloney's girlfriend that Bruce is gonna probably be up when the Reds get home from the road trip.

I was talking to her about seeing Matt pitch thurs. afternoon here in Columbus, and that I was excited about seeing Jay Bruce. She told me not to expect him to be there.

Maybe a move's coming Monday. Maybe she's wrong, but she knows baseball as well as anyone....Who knows?

I'm going with Corey Patterson getting DFA in the next 48 hours. Mr. Bruce in CF by Wednesday.

Chip R
05-25-2008, 06:42 PM
I was told by Matt Maloney's girlfriend that Bruce is gonna probably be up when the Reds get home from the road trip.

I was talking to her about seeing Matt pitch thurs. afternoon here in Columbus, and that I was excited about seeing Jay Bruce. She told me not to expect him to be there.

Maybe a move's coming Monday. Maybe she's wrong, but she knows baseball as well as anyone....Who knows?


"My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious."

reds44
05-25-2008, 06:43 PM
I think it will be a minor upset if Bruce is not in Cincinnati on Tuesday.

wheels
05-25-2008, 06:46 PM
"My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious."


I knew YOU were gonna have to be a wiseacre.:p:

Chip R
05-25-2008, 06:48 PM
I knew YOU were gonna have to be a wiseacre.:p:


It could have been worse. I could have called you "Fox". ;)

Scrap Irony
05-25-2008, 06:53 PM
There's a blast from the past.

KronoRed
05-25-2008, 07:08 PM
I'm going with Corey Patterson getting DFA in the next 48 hours. Mr. Bruce in CF by Wednesday.

Dusty let his buddy go? no way, maybe one of the 3 catchers is heading out.

KronoRed
05-25-2008, 07:10 PM
"My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious."

Thank you, Simone