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View Full Version : Seriously, are there any worse play per pay people in baseball right now



44Magnum
05-13-2008, 09:17 AM
than Jr. and Dunn? People on the DL don't count. I'm simply speaking of people who are playing this season.

Degenerate39
05-13-2008, 09:27 AM
Good God in my time at Redszone I've never seen a poster that had a one track mind like you. Every post you make seems like it's bashing Dunn or Griffey. After last night I can understand some frustrations with Griffey. Threads like these are getting so sickingly ridiculous. I hope this post doesn't come off as an attack towards you but posts like this are driving me crazy. Lets blame this whole losing season on Griff and Dunn.

Larkinfan_11
05-13-2008, 09:27 AM
Detroit Tigers as a team.......only thing I can think of, but I don't like to point fingers at 2 people for a whole season

44Magnum
05-13-2008, 09:48 AM
The posts will stop when changes are made. I am doing my part to help people see what's wrong with the Reds. Are those two the only problems the Reds have? No, but they are the biggest two!
How can any sensible Reds fan sit back and accept those two? I honestly believe that anyone who defends them in anyway is simply not a knowledgeable baseball fan. They are absolutely killing the Reds and it kills me to see it happen.

Degenerate39
05-13-2008, 09:55 AM
Having both of them on the team hurts but keeping one would be for the best. Griffey is probably at the end of his career maybe one or two more seasons. He needs to go. Dunn needs to stay. With Griffey gone from the outfield then the outfield will be good enough with Bruce and Freel or Patterson. I know you'll come back and say the Reds have to get rid both but I don't think it's necessary and you can post all you want but that's not going to change my opinion about that. One has to stay and one has to go.

Nasty_Boy
05-13-2008, 09:55 AM
I have a hard time accepting fans like you that bash what has been our best players over the last 4-5 years. I expected knee-jerk reactions about Jr after last night, but tell me what Dunn did wrong. He made a great defensive play, he drove in a key run, and he hit the ball hard with nothing to show for it. I'm not going to call guys that have been very good for a long time over payed because of a slow start. Jr may have lost it, but I'm very confident that Dunn will be the most productive player at the years end.

44Magnum
05-13-2008, 10:05 AM
Dunn is hitting .167 against lefties. He's as close to an automatic out as one can be right now. He also kills the Reds with horrible defense. Not to mention that he has never and will never be a clutch player. He refuses to change his philosophy at the plate.

He has proven to me that he will never work hard enough to get better. His laid back attitude and work ethic is devastating to younger/up and coming players.

Degenerate39
05-13-2008, 10:09 AM
He refuses to change his philosophy at the plate so is that why he's cut down the strikeouts? He has changed the philosophy. It's obvious he's worked hard to get better. He lost weight and he seems to be a better fielder than what he was a few years ago. He may be off to a slow start right now but he's still a good hitter. From all that I've read he's a great clubhouse presence too. He helped Votto adjust to the majors by his joking around and the same with Bruce during spring training.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-13-2008, 10:12 AM
I have a hard time accepting fans like you that bash what has been our best players over the last 4-5 years. I expected knee-jerk reactions about Jr after last night, but tell me what Dunn did wrong. He made a great defensive play, he drove in a key run, and he hit the ball hard with nothing to show for it. I'm not going to call guys that have been very good for a long time over payed because of a slow start. Jr may have lost it, but I'm very confident that Dunn will be the most productive player at the years end.

If Dunn were making less than he is you might be right.. MIGHT BE.. but with his salary, he had either better imrpove his defense, or begin to be somewhere near the play of david ortiz and/or manny ramirez at the plate.. unfortunately.. there are still alot of people who haven't relaized we are way overpaying for adam Dunn..

If Dunn made 6 or 7 million I would still think that is too high, but would be ok with him being on the team.. but seriously.. either that guy HAS to become one of the best hitters in the game.. or he HAS to drastically imrpove his defense.. he has played in GABP for what.. 5 years and still has no idea about how a ball plays off the wall behind him.. Get your fat butt out there during BP for a month solid and just practice playing balls off the wall.. while manny might be lacking in fielding skills.. there are few players around the league that use the homerun wall behind them as a tool instead of as a hinderance like that guy.. Dunn still has no idea how a ball will bounce when it hits the 45 degree part of the left field line.. he is TERRIBLE and his complete lack of improvement on simple things liek learning his own dang field really have pushed me to the point where if we sign him to a LTD I am done with this team..

dont tell me other left fielders like manny and carlos lee and such havent made up for their lack of skill by actually helping themselves out and knowing the wall behind them..

What is really sad to me.. when other LF'rs come to GABP they read the ball better off that wall than Dunn does..

Ahhhorsepoo
05-13-2008, 10:15 AM
He refuses to change his philosophy at the plate so is that why he's cut down the strikeouts? He has changed the philosophy. It's obvious he's worked hard to get better. He lost weight and he seems to be a better fielder than what he was a few years ago. He may be off to a slow start right now but he's still a good hitter. From all that I've read he's a great clubhouse presence too. He helped Votto adjust to the majors by his joking around and the same with Bruce during spring training.

great he is comedy relief.. pretty sure if you paid will ferrell.. his body double.. he could fill that role for the team alot better.. sorry but that guy has got to go!

Sean_CaseyRules
05-13-2008, 10:19 AM
Not to mention that he has never and will never be a clutch player.


I can think of some games where Dunn has either drove in the tieing (SP) run or a go ahead run. And even a few game winners. Why wouldn't you want to have this guy up when the games on the line? I'm not saying that he is Mr. Clutch or anything, but he does his share.

DannyB
05-13-2008, 10:28 AM
than Jr. and Dunn? People on the DL don't count. I'm simply speaking of people who are playing this season.

David Ross
Ryan Freel
Josh Fogg
Javier Valentine
David Weathers

Ghosts of 1990
05-13-2008, 10:29 AM
I could see the Tampa Bay Rays trading for Griffey or maybe even Anaheim... maybe Cleveland. Someone who will be in this thing in the AL that wants to add offense.

Honestly though, Indians might be a better fit for dunn.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-13-2008, 10:33 AM
they already have hafner as their DH..

44Magnum
05-13-2008, 10:37 AM
David Ross
Ryan Freel
Josh Fogg
Javier Valentine
David Weathers

All those guys together don't make what Dunn makes. Not to mention they aren't counted on like Dunn is counted on.

Jr. is also in the same boat. I would imagine when all is said and done, he will be the least productive MLB RF by seasons end. He is a "no-tool" player now. He can't run or field his position. His arm is shot. He can't hit for average and can't catch up to the heater anymore.

He got it!
05-13-2008, 10:38 AM
Barry Zito and Andruw Jones come to mind.

durl
05-13-2008, 10:41 AM
No one can deny that Griffey and Dunn are not performing up to expectation. The numbers bear that out.

HOWEVER, one also has to look at the history of these players and understand that this is not the norm and they'll eventually get back on track.

In 2007, Dunn was the team leader in RBIs with 106, Griffey was 3rd with 93. The 4th best RBI guy on the team had 17 fewer than Griffey. In terms of average RBIs per games played, Griffey was within .006 of Albert Pujols.

In 2006, Dunn drove in more runs than anyone else with 92. Griffey finished 4th, but was only 3 RBIs away from the 2nd place guy, Phillips. And Griffey played 40 fewer games than Phillips.

In 2005, guess who drove in the most runs? Yep, Dunn with 101. Griffey finished 2nd with 92. And Griffey played 32 fewer games.

History shows us that these two players put more runs on the board than other Reds. Even when Griffey's numbers are low due to injuries, stats show that, on average, he drives in enough runs per at-bat to almost match the top 20 RBI guys in baseball. You don't simply toss out years of proven production because of a 6 bad weeks.

44Magnum
05-13-2008, 10:46 AM
Barry Zito and Andruw Jones come to mind.

Those are some bad ones too.
I would rather have Jones than Dunn. At least Jones can still play defense somewhat.

44Magnum
05-13-2008, 10:52 AM
Why would a team looking for offense honestly want Jr? I don't believe he will turn it around this year. His best days are behind him. Can he rebound and hit .240 with 20 HR's and 75 RBI's? Maybe, but what regular RF wouldn't put up those numbers?

Outside of Seattle, why would any team want him? He is totally washed up!

Ahhhorsepoo
05-13-2008, 10:56 AM
All those guys together don't make what Dunn makes. Not to mention they aren't counted on like Dunn is counted on.

Jr. is also in the same boat. I would imagine when all is said and done, he will be the least productive MLB RF by seasons end. He is a "no-tool" player now. He can't run or field his position. His arm is shot. He can't hit for average and can't catch up to the heater anymore.

David Ross-2,525,000
Freel-3,000,000
Fogg-400,000
Valentin-1,250,000
Weathers-3,300,000

Added together to get.. 10,475,000..

Dunn gets 13,000,000

While salaries don't line up.. Adam dunn still does not equal a great hitter.. and thats the money he is making..

TheBigLebowski
05-13-2008, 10:56 AM
No way would I rather have Jones than Dunn. No way. At that salary?? Jones is finished.

macro
05-13-2008, 10:58 AM
The posts will stop when changes are made. I am doing my part to help people see what's wrong with the Reds.

No, the redundant threads and posts on this subject need to stop now. You're just venting.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-13-2008, 11:00 AM
Why would a team looking for offense honestly want Jr? I don't believe he will turn it around this year. His best days are behind him. Can he rebound and hit .240 with 20 HR's and 75 RBI's? Maybe, but what regular RF wouldn't put up those numbers?

Outside of Seattle, why would any team want him? He is totally washed up!

rebound?!
he is already at a higher BA than .240 and his OBP which everyone says is sooooo terrible is right behind dunns.. he is on pace to hit 17 or 18 homers, but we know he will "rebound" and go aon a mini tear once this 600 things is over.. if he continues his pace he will put up those numbers.. but we all know he hasnt lost that much to the point that he is still not a 25 homer guys with 80 or 90 rbi potential especially with keppinger and those guys in front of him..

Ahhhorsepoo
05-13-2008, 11:01 AM
No, the redundant threads and posts on this subject need to stop now. You're just venting.

this is a forum right? I didnt realize you were forced to read these things?

Nasty_Boy
05-13-2008, 11:10 AM
You guys are nuts... Why does it matter how much money they are making? Are you writing the checks? When Dunn and Griffey signed their deals they were worth the money they are being paid. Jr isn't worth it any more, but Dunn will easily get 15 mil this offseason. I'm not gonna jump on a guy that is still young and always prdouctive because of a bad month and half.

44Magnum
05-13-2008, 11:11 AM
Be careful posters. I just got Dwight Schruted from a Mod!
It's honestly hard to believe but true. You can't state facts and civil opinions on here I guess.

Jack Burton
05-13-2008, 11:14 AM
I can think of some games where Dunn has either drove in the tieing (SP) run or a go ahead run. And even a few game winners. Why wouldn't you want to have this guy up when the games on the line? I'm not saying that he is Mr. Clutch or anything, but he does his share.

You are joking right? He's one of the last guys I want up in a clutch situation, almost a guaranteed K. He's a defensive liability and should be removed from games after the 7th inning.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-13-2008, 11:14 AM
You guys are nuts... Why does it matter how much money they are making? Are you writing the checks? When Dunn and Griffey signed their deals they were worth the money they are being paid. Jr isn't worth it any more, but Dunn will easily get 15 mil this offseason. I'm not gonna jump on a guy that is still young and always prdouctive because of a bad month and half.

It matters whne the team doesn't pay for someone else because you are eatign the salary.. sorry but griffey came here and took a pay cut so they could build around him.. and all they have done is broguht in eric milton.. paid adam dunn... and let many many others walk.. sorry but the reds didnt hold up their end of the bargin at all..

Jack Burton
05-13-2008, 11:16 AM
I'm with 44Magnum on this topic, he's dead on.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-13-2008, 11:16 AM
You are joking right? He's one of the last guys I want up in a clutch situation, almost a guaranteed K. He's a defensive liability and should be removed from games after the 7th inning.

fortunately dusty has realized this, and has used it many times so far this year..

durl
05-13-2008, 11:32 AM
Last season, the Reds ranked 7th in RBIs in the NL, only 2 behind the Marlins for 6th place. Among NL Central teams, the Reds finished 2nd in RBIs behind the Brewers. Of the Reds RBIs, Dunn and Griffey represented over 25% of the total count.

The Reds were 3rd in the NL in HR. Dunn and Griffey hit 70 of those, or about 34%.

Among Reds that played at least 100 games, Dunn and Griffey finished 1-2 in Slugging Percentage and 2nd and 3rd in OBP.

In terms of runs scored, Dunn and Griffey finished 2nd and 3rd, respectively. Dunn also led the Reds in doubles. He even finished 4th in Stolen Bases.

Stats show that these two players contribute a lot to the Reds offense.

Nasty_Boy
05-13-2008, 11:45 AM
I want to know these facts that I keep hearing about Dunn? If your facts are that he's been bad this season, you're right... even though he gets on base more than other Reds and he's only a couple RBIs off the team lead. But in the past 4 seasons Dunn has been productive and consistent, and he has improved in the strike out department. His start along with the Reds has been disapointing, but he will still end up with 100 walks, close to 100 runs, and close to 40 HRs with 100 RBIs. I don't think the Reds will resign him, even though they should... he's a great clubhouse guy and a homegrown player that works hard at his craft. You guys are terrible fans that turn on players at the first sign of trouble.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-13-2008, 11:52 AM
I want to know these facts that I keep hearing about Dunn? If your facts are that he's been bad this season, you're right... even though he gets on base more than other Reds and he's only a couple RBIs off the team lead. But in the past 4 seasons Dunn has been productive and consistent, and he has improved in the strike out department. His start along with the Reds has been disapointing, but he will still end up with 100 walks, close to 100 runs, and close to 40 HRs with 100 RBIs. I don't think the Reds will resign him, even though they should... he's a great clubhouse guy and a homegrown player that works hard at his craft. You guys are terrible fans that turn on players at the first sign of trouble.

Nasty boy you must be new.. I have been fed up with dunn since day 1 when i noticed he has no idea that things such as improvement and practice help him out.. the one example i contunually use because it is the best example.. is his complete lack of knowing the wall behind him..

lets put it this way this will be far fecthed but is a reasonable thought..
if you worked for a company who relied on your powerpoint skills to present a project every month or so to reach new potential clients.. and you miserably failed at the beginning.. and instead of improving you showed no interest in learning powerpoint, or an alternative(something dunn cant do since there is one wall at GABP behind left field).. so you failed every time you had to use it.. do you think your company would keep you around for 7 years?! honestly.. if half of your job is to present things(play defense for dunn).. and you show no effort or progress as time passes.. why does that company keep paying you?! they are losing valuable business(games in dunns case).. even if it is only 1 in 10 clients that are turned away because of your lack of organization you are still costingt the company money time, and a good face..

durl
05-13-2008, 12:25 PM
lets put it this way this will be far fecthed but is a reasonable thought..
if you worked for a company who relied on your powerpoint skills to present a project every month or so to reach new potential clients.. and you miserably failed at the beginning.. and instead of improving you showed no interest in learning powerpoint, or an alternative(something dunn cant do since there is one wall at GABP behind left field).. so you failed every time you had to use it.. do you think your company would keep you around for 7 years?!

If he were the company's TOP salesman every year, you bet they would.

I worked in a sales-related field for many years and I saw salesmen who were slow to learn the new technology but they kept their jobs because they did what they were paid to do: produce sales. Even guys who have down years keep their jobs if they have a proven track record to produce. Given the choice of someone who can work a presentation and one who can land the sale, a company will always take the one that brings in the revenue, regardless of how pretty they do it.


you failed every time you had to use it.. Dunn's defense hasn't cost the Reds as many games as you imply. And you're analogy is like saying that a salesman who brings in $1 million more per year than any other salesman should be let go if his expenses are $20,000 more than others. Typically, power hitters have down sides. It may be more strikeouts or less than stellar defensive abilities.

Dunn is the Reds top RBI and HR producer. I don't think even Dunn's supporters will say he's the best all-around player but no one can deny that he's driven in more runs than any other Red over the past 4-5 years. That's a fact. Among NL players in 2007, only 2 players hit more HR than Dunn, and only 9 others had more RBIs.

NorrisHopper30
05-13-2008, 12:59 PM
Do we need more of these threads, there is a new one every day about the same thing.

Jack Burton
05-13-2008, 01:32 PM
Those that are backing dunn this year must not be paying attention to the actual games. Can't play d and doesn't hit in the clutch, those are obvious.

Blue
05-13-2008, 02:04 PM
If Dunn were making less than he is you might be right.. MIGHT BE.. but with his salary, he had either better imrpove his defense, or begin to be somewhere near the play of david ortiz and/or manny ramirez at the plate.. unfortunately.. there are still alot of people who haven't relaized we are way overpaying for adam Dunn..

Where were you last year when Dunn was better than Manny? I'll bet you were here, complaining anyway. Does Manny suck this year because his numbers were comparable to Dunn's last year? Probably not. He's Manny, afterall, and everyone loves him.

As for the fact that the Reds depend on Dunn, apparently not. Teams don't usually rely on their 6th or 7th hitters in the batting order. (Where he hits in the order is a disgrace, and I am not suggesting that the Reds shouldn't be able to rely on him, just that they don't.)

Try having a little introspection with regard to your remarks about "unknowledgable fans".

Nasty_Boy
05-13-2008, 02:08 PM
I seen some defense last night... Dunn doesn't have much range, but he doesn't make mistakes like he used to (he has improved defensively).

As for the clutch... was last night's RBI clutch or not??? What about the fact that he has hit more walk-off HRs since 2004 than anyone but David Ortiz. I also know that there was a thread that had the stats about his HRs, and about 85% of his HRs were in close game situations(3 runs ahead/behind).

And no Dunn isn't the best all-around player but he has been hands down no questions asked, the best offensive player on the Reds since 2004... and he's been a top 10 run producer in the NL during that time span.

DannyB
05-13-2008, 02:10 PM
So,to answer the burning question-YES!!!

durl
05-13-2008, 02:33 PM
Those that are backing dunn this year must not be paying attention to the actual games. Can't play d and doesn't hit in the clutch, those are obvious.

The point that people like myself are making is that while Dunn's numbers have been down this year (all 6 weeks), his track record shows that he's consistently the Reds most productive offensive player. Whether they come in the clutch or not, he brings more runs across the plate than any other Red.

People are putting all the emphasis on 6 weeks and ignoring the previous 4 years.

bounty37h
05-13-2008, 02:38 PM
You guys are nuts... Why does it matter how much money they are making? Are you writing the checks? When Dunn and Griffey signed their deals they were worth the money they are being paid. Jr isn't worth it any more, but Dunn will easily get 15 mil this offseason. I'm not gonna jump on a guy that is still young and always prdouctive because of a bad month and half.

Well, the checks themselves might not have our names on them, but the accounts the money comes from is full of our cash from tix, consessions, memorabilia, etc., so yes, we DO pay their salary!

bounty37h
05-13-2008, 02:50 PM
[QUOTE=durl;1628980]If he were the company's TOP salesman every year, you bet they would.

I worked in a sales-related field for many years and I saw salesmen who were slow to learn the new technology but they kept their jobs because they did what they were paid to do: produce sales. Even guys who have down years keep their jobs if they have a proven track record to produce. Given the choice of someone who can work a presentation and one who can land the sale, a company will always take the one that brings in the revenue, regardless of how pretty they do it.

If that top salesman still wasnt producing in the big picture, no, they wouldnt. These guys are paid to produce (produce sales). We aren't producing those sales (wins), so tops of something not working is stil not something great in the grand scheme of things.

Nasty_Boy
05-13-2008, 02:59 PM
Well then individualy we pay about 1/10th of 1% of his 13 million. I've been to an average of about 13 games the last 8 years and I was a season ticket holder before I moved away from Cincy. Even with all the thousands of dollars I've spent on and at Reds games, I realize that its entertainment and Dunn has been well worth the price. I don't mind money going towards guys that produce, the problem has been the Milton, Stanton, Freel, Graves, Casey's(at the end) of the world that were paid too much to do a bad/mediocre job.

bounty37h
05-13-2008, 03:40 PM
Well then individualy we pay about 1/10th of 1% of his 13 million. I've been to an average of about 13 games the last 8 years and I was a season ticket holder before I moved away from Cincy. Even with all the thousands of dollars I've spent on and at Reds games, I realize that its entertainment and Dunn has been well worth the price. I don't mind money going towards guys that produce, the problem has been the Milton, Stanton, Freel, Graves, Casey's(at the end) of the world that were paid too much to do a bad/mediocre job.

I understand that, but if the team still loses every year with these guys, and thier salary is eating up most of the teams money between the 2 of them, are they really producing towards the team winning? I am not getting in the Dunn stinks or doesnt arguement, as both sides have thier cases, I am simply stating that what we have, and have had the last several years, isnt working. In this case, I dont see thier production as a positive for what it eats of the teams budget, without producing team wins.

Hondo
05-13-2008, 03:42 PM
Fact is Dunn doesn't Stink and is a Good Offensive Player...

If he leaves, this team is in a World of Hurt...

durl
05-13-2008, 03:51 PM
If that top salesman still wasnt producing in the big picture, no, they wouldnt. These guys are paid to produce (produce sales). We aren't producing those sales (wins), so tops of something not working is stil not something great in the grand scheme of things.

You don't fire your top salesman when total company sales are down...there's no need for a scapegoat. Especially if he's one of the best producers in the industry. Dunn is among the best offensive players in the NL. He may be tops of a last place team, but that doesn't mean that a player with similar numbers on a winning team is better than Dunn. The numbers are what they are.

Dunn is starting off slow, no doubt. But 39 games in and people are ready to ship him out while ignoring the fact that in the previous 648 games he's led the Reds in HR and RBIs consistently. I just find that odd. In 2005, Dunn NL ranks for HR/RBI was 4/13. In 2006, he ranked 7/24. In 2007, he improved to 3/9. Top 10 in HR and RBIs is a player who produces...and produces well.

Dunn may not be the best fit for the Reds; I'm not saying keep him or ship him out. Bruce may be a top 10 RBI guy at a cheaper cost and that would be a good thing. My point is that we cannot deny that if Dunn is shipped out, the Reds will give up their greatest run producer and HR hitter. Numbers don't lie.

Nasty_Boy
05-13-2008, 04:00 PM
I find it interesting that people want Dunn shipped out because he's struggling and the offensive problems have been blamed on him. To me that shows how valuable he is. If Dunn wasn't sucking it up, would the offense have struggled through the first 4-5 weeks? With his track record you should stick with him until he turns it around and gets the offense back on track. The Reds are hitting a little better now and winning a few games, if Dunn gets rolling good things will happen.

Blue
05-13-2008, 04:57 PM
I find it interesting that people want Dunn shipped out because he's struggling and the offensive problems have been blamed on him. To me that shows how valuable he is. If Dunn wasn't sucking it up, would the offense have struggled through the first 4-5 weeks? With his track record you should stick with him until he turns it around and gets the offense back on track. The Reds are hitting a little better now and winning a few games, if Dunn gets rolling good things will happen.

They've blamed him for the team's struggles even when the offense was good.

Hondo
05-13-2008, 05:50 PM
What this team really needs is a Big Time Right Handed Power Bat... Like for example if this team had Gary Sheffield on it...

Phillips
Kepp
Griffey
Sheffield
Dunn
Encarncion
Votto
Bako

Sheffield would completely change the Look and Dimension of this team.

I am not saying Trade for Gary Sheffield, or That Sheffield should be on this team. Just using him in a "hypathedical" lineup card...

If this team was smart, they would have quit jerking around wasting money on Fogg, Patterson, Stantons, Castos, Coffeys and put all that Money, and maybe a little more into a Right Handed Power Hitter.

Blue
05-13-2008, 05:56 PM
What this team really needs is a Big Time Right Handed Power Bat... Like for example if this team had Gary Sheffield on it...

Phillips
Kepp
Griffey
Sheffield
Dunn
Encarncion
Votto
Bako

Sheffield would completely change the Look and Dimension of this team.

I am not saying Trade for Gary Sheffield, or That Sheffield should be on this team. Just using him in a "hypathedical" lineup card...

If this team was smart, they would have quit jerking around wasting money on Fogg, Patterson, Stantons, Castos, Coffeys and put all that Money, and maybe a little more into a Right Handed Power Hitter.

Keppinger, Phillips, and EE have THUMPED LHP this season. The offense is struggling because Dunn and Griffey are struggling. I think its that simple.

Jones1
05-13-2008, 06:51 PM
Speaking on defense I think we can all agree Chris Duncan is a worse left fielder than Adam Dunn. Just trying to throw some optimism out there but Duncan IS making much less than Dunn..

HUHUH
05-13-2008, 11:06 PM
What this team really needs is a Big Time Right Handed Power Bat... Like for example if this team had Gary Sheffield on it...

Phillips
Kepp
Griffey
Sheffield
Dunn
Encarncion
Votto
Bako

Sheffield would completely change the Look and Dimension of this team.

I am not saying Trade for Gary Sheffield, or That Sheffield should be on this team. Just using him in a "hypathedical" lineup card...

If this team was smart, they would have quit jerking around wasting money on Fogg, Patterson, Stantons, Castos, Coffeys and put all that Money, and maybe a little more into a Right Handed Power Hitter.

I agree that Sheffield should be viewed as "hypathedical". Particularly if we consider his "fundamintals".

Maldez
05-13-2008, 11:10 PM
Dunn is just a big useless oaf. If we had unloaded him a year or so ago we might have gotten something decent in return but he's almost untradeable now.

HUHUH
05-13-2008, 11:14 PM
Dunn is just a big useless oaf. If we had unloaded him a year or so ago we might have gotten something decent in return but he's almost untradeable now.

You are "RIGHT ON". If we had unloaded him 3 years ago, we'd be better off now. But oh yeah, I forgot about his "40 homers and 100 RBI" line every year. Has anyone else ever hit 40 homers and drove in 100? My god, most guys who hit 40 HR drive in 125 minimum.

Kingspoint
05-13-2008, 11:35 PM
than Jr. and Dunn? People on the DL don't count. I'm simply speaking of people who are playing this season.

Richie Sexson

NorrisHopper30
05-13-2008, 11:36 PM
Dunn's last two RBIs have been sacs. That's a good way to get out of a slump, hopefully he turns it around soon.

bounty37h
05-14-2008, 10:07 AM
[QUOTE=durl;1629151]You don't fire your top salesman when total company sales are down...there's no need for a scapegoat. Especially if he's one of the best producers in the industry. Dunn is among the best offensive players in the NL. He may be tops of a last place team, but that doesn't mean that a player with similar numbers on a winning team is better than Dunn. The numbers are what they are.

Its a pretty common business practice actually, even your top guy is never safe if the entire company isnt working-have to look at what other options can get the team going. Tops of one company doesn't mean tops in the business. Its not making him a scapegoat at all. As you stated, adn what I was trying to point out, if we can replace his 40 homers a year with 2 guys that can hit 20-25 apiece, save a LOT of money, you have to look at it.

Driver62
05-14-2008, 10:15 AM
Fact is Dunn doesn't Stink and is a Good Offensive Player...

If he leaves, this team is in a World of Hurt...

Have you checked the standings lately? This team is already in a world of hurt.

durl
05-14-2008, 10:44 AM
...if we can replace his 40 homers a year with 2 guys that can hit 20-25 apiece, save a LOT of money, you have to look at it.

I don't think I'm following how you replace Dunn with 2 players. The way I'm reading this is to get 2 left-fielders, splitting duty evenly between the 2, and each hitting 20 HR & 50 RBI. I don't know if I agree with that approach but correct me if I'm misunderstanding.

Nasty_Boy
05-14-2008, 10:52 AM
I don't think I'm following how you replace Dunn with 2 players. The way I'm reading this is to get 2 left-fielders, splitting duty evenly between the 2, and each hitting 20 HR & 50 RBI. I don't know if I agree with that approach but correct me if I'm misunderstanding.


Don't you know that its been said for years that the Reds should spend money on 2 guys that equal Dunn's production. And they're easy to find... there are plenty of guys on every street corner that can hit 20 HRs while splitting at bats with another 20 HR player.

GoReds33
05-14-2008, 10:56 AM
Mike Hampton, and Carl Pavano come to mind.

durl
05-14-2008, 11:50 AM
Don't you know that its been said for years that the Reds should spend money on 2 guys that equal Dunn's production. And they're easy to find... there are plenty of guys on every street corner that can hit 20 HRs while splitting at bats with another 20 HR player.

That's why I'm confused. Any player that can hit 20 HR in 81 games qualifies to be in the lineup every day. That would mean he'd potentially be a 40 HR player who would be making more than $10 million/year. Basically, someone like Dunn.

bounty37h
05-14-2008, 11:55 AM
I don't think I'm following how you replace Dunn with 2 players. The way I'm reading this is to get 2 left-fielders, splitting duty evenly between the 2, and each hitting 20 HR & 50 RBI. I don't know if I agree with that approach but correct me if I'm misunderstanding.

Was going after point we are not likely to trade him for a slugger comparable to him in HR's, but if we can get another OF'er, and maybe another decent player for another position in need that is good....Like I said, I doubt we can replace his hr total in one package througha trade, at least get a few good ones that when added up, give you the production, defense, fill various needs, and ideally cost less as the package then Dunns salary.

Kingspoint
05-14-2008, 04:51 PM
Dunn's last two RBIs have been sacs. That's a good way to get out of a slump, hopefully he turns it around soon.


What's great is instead of taking a ball, he swung at two pitches that were out of the strikezone and drove the runners in from 3rd. That's what he's supposed to have been doing all these years. Maybe he finally gets it.

Blue
05-14-2008, 05:01 PM
What's great is instead of taking a ball, he swung at two pitches that were out of the strikezone and drove the runners in from 3rd. That's what he's supposed to have been doing all these years. Maybe he finally gets it.

And here I thought he was supposed to be leading the team in RBIs every year. I also thought swinging at balls was bad.

dsmith421
05-14-2008, 05:07 PM
Let me get this straight:

1. Dunn is terrible.
2. Other teams should trade us good players for Dunn.

How does that make any sense?

dsmith421
05-14-2008, 05:08 PM
Don't you know that its been said for years that the Reds should spend money on 2 guys that equal Dunn's production. And they're easy to find... there are plenty of guys on every street corner that can hit 20 HRs while splitting at bats with another 20 HR player.

I wouldn't want to grow up where you grew up. 20 HR major league hitters on EVERY street corner? I wouldn't have even made a little league team, let alone a high school team, in that town.

Nasty_Boy
05-15-2008, 09:36 AM
I wouldn't want to grow up where you grew up. 20 HR major league hitters on EVERY street corner? I wouldn't have even made a little league team, let alone a high school team, in that town.


I guess a forgot my sarcasm alert. :cool::cool::cool:

And I was the only one hitting HRs at that rate! :laugh:

Ahhhorsepoo
05-15-2008, 10:39 AM
even if dunn leads the team in rbi's that doesnt mean that there arent an extra 20 or 30 rbi's he is leaving on base with no sac flies.. no sac hits.. and a bunch of stirkeouts.. please dont use the last 4 days as an example he has turned the corner.. that man can hit a sac fly to save his life.. and fortunately the last few days he has gotten lucky..

Nasty_Boy
05-15-2008, 10:51 AM
Why do people love sac flies? He K's as much as Phillips and he drives in more runs than BP with less opportunities. What player doesn't leave RBIs out there? It happens, just accept the fact that Dunn is the best RBI man on the team. Even as poor as he's played this year and spending the majority of his time hitting 6-7, he is only 1 RBI behind Kepp for the team lead. Hell, if BP didn't run into his ground ball in St. Louis Dunn would lead the team in RBI.

And I love that a guy that has consistently been the best run producer has just got "lucky" by driving in runs the last 4 days.

durl
05-15-2008, 11:00 AM
Dunn is currently tied for 2nd in RBIs for the Reds this year, one behind the leader: Keppinger...the man considered to be the Reds' top hitter. Sure, it'd be great to see Dunn get 120-130 RBIs every year. But only 7 players had at least 120 RBIs last season. Pretty elite company.

Last year, Dunn had more RBIs and HR than Albert Pujols but I can't imagine Cardinal fans complaining about Pujol's numbers.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-15-2008, 12:12 PM
Dunn is currently tied for 2nd in RBIs for the Reds this year, one behind the leader: Keppinger...the man considered to be the Reds' top hitter. Sure, it'd be great to see Dunn get 120-130 RBIs every year. But only 7 players had at least 120 RBIs last season. Pretty elite company.

Last year, Dunn had more RBIs and HR than Albert Pujols but I can't imagine Cardinal fans complaining about Pujol's numbers.

yeah but to be on a legit winning team.. you need to have someone finish winthin the top 20 players in all of baseball for rbis.. sorry but his 30+ homers 100 rbis is the same thing that some others do.. fortunately for everyone else they are ALLLLLL better at defense than adam dunn.. soo they deserve big contracts..

durl
05-16-2008, 09:29 AM
yeah but to be on a legit winning team.. you need to have someone finish winthin the top 20 players in all of baseball for rbis.. sorry but his 30+ homers 100 rbis is the same thing that some others do.. fortunately for everyone else they are ALLLLLL better at defense than adam dunn.. soo they deserve big contracts..

Dunn's numbers aren't the "same thing" as others. Over the past 4 seasons, Dunn ranks 11th in the majors in RBIs. I said this in another thread, but since the beginning of the 2004 season, only 2 other OF have driven more runs across the plate than Dunn. The top RBI guy among OF over that span is Manny Ramirez, and his fielding percentage is .009 better than Dunn's since 2004. Dunn has a career FP of .975, compared to Manny's .979.

Jack Burton
05-16-2008, 10:48 AM
When it comes to hitting, Dunn shouldn't even be mentioned in the same paragraph as Manny. I think everyone that follows baseball would say Manny is by far the better hitter, no comparison. However, you could compare them on defense and bonehead plays.

Nasty_Boy
05-16-2008, 11:25 AM
He didn't compare them to each other, all he said was Manny was the top RBI outfielder. The problem is Dunn supporters don't compare him to Manny, Pujols, and Berkman. That's the people who don't like Dunn and wish he were one of those guys. The reason for this is Dunn fans accept what he is, and realize that his production is very good but to expect more isn't realistic.

durl
05-16-2008, 01:26 PM
There are great hitters and there are great run producers. For the sake of comparing a good all-around hitter with a good power hitter, let's compare Ichiro and Dunn. (oh, yeah...eyebrows are raising everywhere...) Ichiro is a very good hitter, I believe we all can agree with that. I'll use numbers going back to 2004 since that's when Dunn hit his stride.

Since 2004:
Ichiro's BA is .337. Dunn's BA is .253.
Ichiro's Hits total 930 compared to Dunn's 554.

So we can see that Ichiro can get on base and his high OBP is due to his ability to hit the ball.

Now let's look at other numbers:

Ichiro's HR: 38. Dunn: 166
Ichiro's RBI: 245. Dunn: 401
Ichiro's OBP is .383. Dunn's is .381
Ichiro's total bases is 1197. Dunn's is 1180.

The kicker here is that Ichiro has 562 more AB than Dunn. But Dunn is responsible for 156 more runs than Ichiro. Most of the difference is via the HR, but what matters is that they cross the plate, not how.

Some might say that Ichiro will score more often because of his ability to get on base, but that's not so.

Ichiro Runs Scored: 433 runs over 2756 AB. Dunn: 412 runs over 2194 AB. Dunn is more likely to score than Ichiro per AB (18% to 15%).

So while Ichiro is a better all-around hitter than Dunn, Dunn puts numbers in the Runs column with greater proficiency. It's VERY true that part of the numbers can be due to Ichiro's spot in the lineup. Still, my point is that I believe a baseball team needs both types of hitters.

tommycash
05-16-2008, 01:47 PM
There are great hitters and there are great run producers. For the sake of comparing a good all-around hitter with a good power hitter, let's compare Ichiro and Dunn. (oh, yeah...eyebrows are raising everywhere...) Ichiro is a very good hitter, I believe we all can agree with that. I'll use numbers going back to 2004 since that's when Dunn hit his stride.

Since 2004:
Ichiro's BA is .337. Dunn's BA is .253.
Ichiro's Hits total 930 compared to Dunn's 554.

So we can see that Ichiro can get on base and his high OBP is due to his ability to hit the ball.

Now let's look other numbers:

Ichiro's HR: 38. Dunn: 166
Ichiro's RBI: 245. Dunn: 401
Ichiro's OBP is .383. Dunn's is .381
Ichiro's total bases is 1197. Dunn's is 1180.

The kicker here is that Ichiro has 562 more AB than Dunn. But Dunn has responsible for 156 more runs than Ichiro. Most of the difference is via the HR, but what matters is that they cross the plate, not how.

Some might say that Ichiro will score more often because of his ability to get on base, but that's not so.

Ichiro Runs Scored: 433 runs over 2756 AB. Dunn: 412 runs over 2194 AB. Dunn is more likely to score than Ichiro per AB (18% to 15%).

So while Ichiro is a better all-around hitter than Dunn, Dunn puts numbers in the Runs column with greater proficiency. It's VERY true that part of the numbers can be due to Ichiro's spot in the lineup. Still, my point is that I believe a baseball team needs both types of hitters.


Those numbers are correct, but if you look at both careers you will find that Ichiro scores runs at 15.3% and Dunn scores runs at 13.9. I think it is hard to compare a hitter on the decline (Ichiro is declining because of age as he will be 36 this year) to a hitter possibly in his prime years. I do agree with you that teams need both a leadoff type hitter and a power bat. You must also not say that Dunn is more likely to score runs per AB, if you count his walks. You must count all plate appearances. Dunn's walks are what make him better equiped to win this argument (runs scored per AB) and walks do not count as an official at bat.

Nasty_Boy
05-16-2008, 01:52 PM
Dunn is also doing his work from the 4-5-6-7 spots in the lineup. Ichiro has either hit 1st or 3rd for the M's. He gets more plate appearances and he is on base for the middle of the M's lineup. Dunn has been on base for the bottom of the Reds lineup.

durl
05-16-2008, 02:25 PM
Dunn's walks are what make him better equiped to win this argument (runs scored per AB) and walks do not count as an official at bat.

C'mon...you're not supposed to point that out. :D

BB do make a difference, you're right. Dunn has 240 more walks than Ichiro which would make the AB disparity only 322. That would mean that, over the 4 year span, Dunn scores 15.6% of his at-bats compared to Ichiro at 14.6%.

I didn't think age needed to come into play here because my funny little comparison is how a high-BA/low RBI hitter compares to a low-BA/high RBI hitter.

tommycash
05-16-2008, 02:48 PM
C'mon...you're not supposed to point that out. :D

BB do make a difference, you're right. Dunn has 240 more walks than Ichiro which would make the AB disparity only 322. That would mean that, over the 4 year span, Dunn scores 15.6% of his at-bats compared to Ichiro at 14.6%.

I didn't think age needed to come into play here because my funny little comparison is how a high-BA/low RBI hitter compares to a low-BA/high RBI hitter.

I think age has to be a factor in talking about Ichiro. He didn't start playing ball here until he was older (29 I think). So his prime years were his first 4 or 5 years in the league. Dunn's prime years are the years you are comparing. It might be a better comparison if you compare Ichiro first 4 seasons to Dunn's last 4 seasons. Just trying to help. I don't think it is the right comparison to make, in my opinion. I think Ichiro is defined as a leadoff hitter, but I don't know what Dunn is defined as (as a hitter). That may be why we have a lot of discussion and disagreements on him.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-16-2008, 05:19 PM
i am just saying to get paid like dunn does for ONLY his hitting.. he had better be better at hitting.. ala Manny.. but we pay him that much.. which should go to someone with his batting skills and at least a corey patterson type fielder.. who is at least mediocre in the league..

BLEEDS
05-16-2008, 06:29 PM
Was going after point we are not likely to trade him for a slugger comparable to him in HR's, but if we can get another OF'er, and maybe another decent player for another position in need that is good....Like I said, I doubt we can replace his hr total in one package througha trade, at least get a few good ones that when added up, give you the production, defense, fill various needs, and ideally cost less as the package then Dunns salary.

Yes, that's right, he sucks SO BAD, that you need TWO people to replace his production.

GREAT ARGUMENT!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

LouisvilleCARDS
05-16-2008, 09:30 PM
I appreciate what both guys have done for their career, but its about time to change the DNA of this team. I mean specifically getting good defensive outfielders, and guys who can get hits consistently. Griffey is in the twilight of his career irregardless, and needs to basically be a DH. Dunn's defense is a liability also, so he should probably a DH. I've seen all the OBP numbers of Dunn and run producing numbers, but I just think the makeup of the team needs to be changed. It seems he produced in spurts. A lot of time getting that 3 run icing on an 8 run win is irrelevant to me. I would like to know what Dunn's numbers are in 1 or 2 run games.

Not to mention about $20 mil in money will be opened up with these guys not here. It's just time IMO.

durl
05-17-2008, 12:40 PM
I think age has to be a factor in talking about Ichiro. He didn't start playing ball here until he was older (29 I think). So his prime years were his first 4 or 5 years in the league. Dunn's prime years are the years you are comparing. It might be a better comparison if you compare Ichiro first 4 seasons to Dunn's last 4 seasons. Just trying to help. I don't think it is the right comparison to make, in my opinion. I think Ichiro is defined as a leadoff hitter, but I don't know what Dunn is defined as (as a hitter). That may be why we have a lot of discussion and disagreements on him.

I understand what you're saying but I'm really not comparing Ichiro and Dunn per se. I'm comparing a high BA/low RBI player to a low BA/high RBI player and the impact they have on runs scored. Regardless of Ichiro's age his numbers are still very impressive when it comes to batting average and OBP. This was never meant to be a specific player to player comparison.

Hondo
05-17-2008, 01:15 PM
If this team had an Ichiro at the top of the lineup, it would score more runs. Period.

You can compare a Lead Off Hitter to a Clean Up hitter all day Long but they both bring 2 completely different intangibles to the table...

1st being, Lead Off Hitter gets Drove in, Clean up Hitter Drives In runs.

Lead Off hitter like Ichiro also causes havok on the basepaths, disrupts the pitcher...

I have been thinking though, I wonder if Bob Casteilini would consider paying the Posting Fee for Yu Darvish when he is available. That guy is going to be a Moster when he gets over here...

DTCromer
05-17-2008, 02:22 PM
Another Dunn argument? Everyone is so thick-headed on this issue that the defenders are going to point out his OBP, SLugging and other statistics while the people who hate him are going to point toward his laziness, not pulling his weight/salary, and his ability to miss bases.

Nothing in here is going to change anyone's minds. We should make a rule that any thread debating Adam Dunn should be immediately deleted.

Jack Burton
05-17-2008, 06:29 PM
It's pretty much like this, the Reds will be a better team once these two are no longer on the roster. That shall be a very glorious day for this once great franchise.

Trace's Daddy
05-17-2008, 06:52 PM
I sure hope they sign Dunn instead of trading him. Let Griff go but keep Dunn please!

muethibp
05-17-2008, 06:53 PM
The Dunn bashers sure go quiet after Adam wins 2 games in a row...

fadetoblack2880
05-17-2008, 06:55 PM
I sure hope they sign Dunn instead of trading him. Let Griff go but keep Dunn please!

I agree. Sadly though, that ball wasn't hit far enough so maybe he should be dealt away for a couple low level prospects. The Reds don't need a player who hits 40 homers a year. They need to rebuild for 10 more years...:rolleyes:

DTCromer
05-17-2008, 06:57 PM
The Dunn bashers sure go quiet after Adam wins 2 games in a row...

Don't worry, after Dunn has about 5-6 good games in a row, we'll have 20-25 after that to keep this thread fired up.

Jack Burton
05-17-2008, 06:59 PM
The Dunn bashers sure go quiet after Adam wins 2 games in a row...

Good job Dunn, I hope it raises your trade value.

muethibp
05-17-2008, 07:03 PM
Good job Dunn, I hope it raises your trade value.

Yeah, we need to trade the guy. He doesn't produce runs. He's not clutch. Heck, he couldn't even get a bunt down - people that can't do the little things have no place on this team.

Hondo
05-17-2008, 07:05 PM
Good job Dunn, I hope it raises your trade value.

Jack Burton what??? Adam Dunn is going to end the season with a .250 average, 40 Homers, 100 runs, 100 RBI, and 100 Walks...

Are you still going to want him gone?

I hope Bob signs him to a 75 Million/ 5 year Deal.

captainmorgan07
05-17-2008, 07:05 PM
I am usually critical of Dunn but when he came up i said to my folks dusty better not give him the bunt sign. You don't ask a guy who's had 2 career sacrifices to bunt. Esepcially a guy like Dunn who at any moment could hit one to the river. He darn well almost did that one landed in the last row of the moon deck.

Jack Burton
05-17-2008, 07:08 PM
Yeah, we need to trade the guy. He doesn't produce runs. He's not clutch. Heck, he couldn't even get a bunt down - people that can't do the little things have no place on this team.

Sure guy, he had a great AB in the 7th also. Don't forget he's one of the great defensive outfielders of our time. He's a DH, that's it.

muethibp
05-17-2008, 07:16 PM
Sure guy, he had a great AB in the 7th also. Don't forget he's one of the great defensive outfielders of our time. He's a DH, that's it.

I actually didn't think his at bat in the 7th was particularly bad. He worked the count full and struck out on a really nice pitch, which is going to happen. I guess I prefer to focus on the HR last night, the game winning RBI last night, and the game winning, come from behind HR today. You are, of course, free to focus on other things.

Blue
05-17-2008, 07:17 PM
The haters don't know how to react! I love it!!!

Maldez
05-17-2008, 07:27 PM
The haters don't know how to react! I love it!!!

Not bad for useless oaf! Keep it up, Dunn. You're actually starting to CONTRIBUTE!

Hondo
05-17-2008, 07:27 PM
The haters don't know how to react! I love it!!!

Everyone is going to be screaming bloody murder if AD is gone after this year... He is home Grown and needs to be resigned... He is coming up on his PRIME years and may Bat .300 someday with 40 Dingers...

Then watch out!

durl
05-17-2008, 07:57 PM
I guess my question is this: if people don't want a 40HR/100 RBI player, what type of player do they want? Should we sacrifice 15 HR and 25 RBI and get a player that makes 4 fewer errors in a season and a dozen more put-outs? Do we trade Dunn and get a mediocre hitter who's a great fielder, then expect Bruce to hit 40 HR/100 RBI every year? (If that's good enough...)

This is a serious question. I'm curious to know what people would be willing to give up and what they expect in return. Keeping in mind that someone with A-Rods numbers makes A-Rod money and that won't happen in Cincinnati.

Degenerate39
05-17-2008, 08:05 PM
Everyone is going to be screaming bloody murder if AD is gone after this year... He is home Grown and needs to be resigned... He is coming up on his PRIME years and may Bat .300 someday with 40 Dingers...

Then watch out!

Then they'll just complain that he didn't hit .400 with 60 dingers.

BLEEDS
05-17-2008, 08:33 PM
I guess my question is this: if people don't want a 40HR/100 RBI player, what type of player do they want? Should we sacrifice 15 HR and 25 RBI and get a player that makes 4 fewer errors in a season and a dozen more put-outs? Do we trade Dunn and get a mediocre hitter who's a great fielder, then expect Bruce to hit 40 HR/100 RBI every year? (If that's good enough...)

This is a serious question. I'm curious to know what people would be willing to give up and what they expect in return. Keeping in mind that someone with A-Rods numbers makes A-Rod money and that won't happen in Cincinnati.

[insert crickets chirping smiley here ---> ]

Most people answer this by saying they'll take 2-3+ other guys to "make up for his numbers". What kind of sense does that make?!?! The guy is SOO bad, he needs multiple people to replace him. :confused:

Joey Votto can hit 25-30 HR's, Jay Bruce can hit 25-30 HR's (no mention that he's replacing Griffey's 25-30 HR's) and let's see, EE can hit 25-30 HR's, then we'll get a $7M LF-er who can hit 10 HR's.

My response: why not IMPROVE in all those areas - especially at 1st base, where we haven't had anyone of OPS note in about two decades - AND keep a 40/100 guy in LF?!?!? Heaven forbid we get better EVERYWHERE else for it's own sake, other than for making up for ONE guy!!!

We already have enough young pitching for the next 2-3 years, so unless you think we're going to do ANYTHING different in FA - like get a $15M Starting Pitchers, or a $20M+ OF-er - we aren't going to be able to SERIOUSLY upgrade our team by acquisition or trading for anyone PROVEN.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Lockdwn11
05-17-2008, 08:51 PM
Everyone is going to be screaming bloody murder if AD is gone after this year... He is home Grown and needs to be resigned... He is coming up on his PRIME years and may Bat .300 someday with 40 Dingers...

Then watch out!

If they can get him on the cheap I'm all for resigning Dunn but if it's going to cost 16-17 million I hope the reds pass.

Hondo
05-17-2008, 08:52 PM
This team is seriously 1 Right Handed Power Hitter, a Quality Starter, and 1 Go To Bull Pen arm from winning the Division. Walt always made Deals in St. Louis so hopefully he'll make some moves here, and Keep Dunn! LTC

freestyle55
05-17-2008, 11:14 PM
A lot of time getting that 3 run icing on an 8 run win is irrelevant to me. I would like to know what Dunn's numbers are in 1 or 2 run games.

Back on 4/18 I looked it up on baseball-reference.com and found this...

48% of his home runs are in +/- 1 run situations...that goes to 65% when it's +/- 2 runs...only 20% are +/- 4 runs

Maldez
05-18-2008, 12:32 AM
My complaint with Dunn is he doesn't produce like a team's big-salary stud is supposed to, today's game-winning 3 run homer aside.

Dunn only makes a couple mil less than Houston' Lance Berkman who makes $14.5M / year and there's no comparison to what Berkman does to what Dunn does. Either Cincy way over-paid for Dunn or Houston's got the bargain of all times.

Blue
05-18-2008, 01:13 AM
My complaint with Dunn is he doesn't produce like a team's big-salary stud is supposed to, today's game-winning 3 run homer aside.

Dunn only makes a couple mil less than Houston' Lance Berkman who makes $14.5M / year and there's no comparison to what Berkman does to what Dunn does. Either Cincy way over-paid for Dunn or Houston's got the bargain of all times.

To this, I say three things:

1. Dunn was better than Berkman last year at a time when Dunn made $9 million and Berkman made $14.5 million. That doesn't make either of them under-paid or over-paid.

2. Berkman's contract came with $57 million more guaranteed than Dunn's contract. If Berkman is injured, they've wasted a ton of money. Higher risk for the Astros, the reward for which is fewer dollars annually.

3. Berkman may have received more money in 2006.

durl
05-18-2008, 11:57 PM
My complaint with Dunn is he doesn't produce like a team's big-salary stud is supposed to, today's game-winning 3 run homer aside.

Dunn only makes a couple mil less than Houston' Lance Berkman who makes $14.5M / year and there's no comparison to what Berkman does to what Dunn does. Either Cincy way over-paid for Dunn or Houston's got the bargain of all times.

Over the past 2 seasons, Berkman definitely has an advantage over Dunn in OBP (.403 to .375), BA (.296 to .248), Hits (325 to 269) and SLG % (.564 to .521). I would compare over a longer term but Berkman's injuries have kept him out of almost 200 games over the past 4 years compared to Dunn.

I believe Berkman is a better all-around hitter, but over the past 2 seasons, they're very close in numbers that involve scoring. Dunn has actually scored 10 more runs than Berkman. Berkman has only 1 more HR than Dunn, and only 20 more RBIs. That extra $1.5 million gets the Astros only 10 more RBIs per year.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-19-2008, 07:31 AM
and a better fielder........... which is half of the game...

Nasty_Boy
05-19-2008, 08:45 AM
and a better fielder........... which is half of the game...

Teams don't pay for defense. A left fielder that produces runs like Adam Dunn is far more valuable than a light hitting gold glover. Dunn has very rarely, if ever, cost the Reds because of a defensive play. I notice a difference in his defense this season, and I'm sure that is due to his knee being healthy. His range isn't great but I would much rather have him if LF than some of the other leftfielders in the NL Central. Think about it, Chris Duncan is a butcher, Jason Bay is average at best, Carlos Lee is brutal, and Soriano is a good athlete but a poor outfielder. Hell, the only good defensive leftfielder in the league has to be Eric Byrnes.

mound_patrol
05-19-2008, 09:59 AM
and a better fielder........... which is half of the game...

Every year Dunn leads the team in Win shares which factors in defense. He's our best offensive player, and he doesn't cost us nearly as many games on defense as you say or think he does.

Sean_CaseyRules
05-19-2008, 11:01 AM
I'm really glad everyone was talking about how NOT clutch Dunn is...... I can't believe that you guys just hate him so much that you are going to bash him no matter how much he does produce, and even with the stats you guys are still just hammering him...

elfmanvt07
05-19-2008, 11:29 AM
Well, the thing is, Dunn is who his baseball card says he is. Now, clearly some of you have always wanted Dunn traded. The thing is, he's only about 40 points off his career OPS, and he's warming up.

Obviously, when we weren't paying him as much, it was different. Is he worth what we're paying him? Perhaps not. But he's producing runs. Excluding Mr. Janish, he's 4th on the team in OPS. Assuming Hairston comes to earth, he's third. Should he be higher? Yes. And he will be. His career OPS would be second on this team only to Votto, ATM. Votto's eventually gonna cost as much/more than Dunner.

Bottom line, Dunn is producing. If he takes a first pitch ball, he does really well. After going to 1-0, he's OPSing 1.25. He has a good eye, too.

After reading the analysis of the St. Louis mini-dynasty a few weeks back, I still feel we need to hoard talent. Dunn has talent.

EDIT: BTW, I can't believe I just found out how awesome Yahoo's stats page is.

44Magnum
05-19-2008, 01:26 PM
I say move him while he's hot.

durl
05-19-2008, 03:28 PM
I say move him while he's hot.

"Hot" as in the past 4 games or "hot" as in scoring 412 runs, hitting 166 HR and 401 RBIs over the past 4 years?

Manny Ramirez is the top RBI OFer in baseball over the past 4 years with 464 (Dunn is 2nd in MLB over that span). Compared to Dunn, his OBP is 20 points higher, BA is 49 points higher, and his slugging percentage is 43 points higher. However, he's scored 29 fewer runs and hit 23 fewer HR. Plus he's made 6 fewer errors than Dunn over 4 years. The kicker is that he made almost $19 million last year.

mound_patrol
05-19-2008, 03:36 PM
I dont think its a coincidence that the Reds started this hot streak when Dunn started getting hot. The Reds need Adam Dunn.

Hondo
05-19-2008, 04:27 PM
I dont think its a coincidence that the Reds started this hot streak when Dunn started getting hot. The Reds need Adam Dunn.

Amen!!!

Degenerate39
05-19-2008, 04:44 PM
I dont think its a coincidence that the Reds started this hot streak when Dunn started getting hot. The Reds need Adam Dunn.

Blasphemey! He strikeouts out, plays bad defense, can't bunt! :thumbdown

Ahhhorsepoo
05-19-2008, 06:42 PM
soo he is hot because he is batting 6 for 19 this last homestand he is on fire? i think he just happened to hit a little spurt and drive a few balls outta the park.. he still is not consistant enough to make as much money as he does..

Hondo
05-19-2008, 06:46 PM
soo he is hot because he is batting 6 for 19 this last homestand he is on fire? i think he just happened to hit a little spurt and drive a few balls outta the park.. he still is not consistant enough to make as much money as he does..

Ok seriously. Andruw Jones got 18.2 Million a year over 2 years, and only had like 25 dingers last year, with 100+ K, and ok, played dang good Centerfield...

What do you think a guy is going to command who can hit 40 homers and drive in 100 runs, and walk 100 times... ?

Hondo
05-19-2008, 06:47 PM
soo he is hot because he is batting 6 for 19 this last homestand he is on fire? i think he just happened to hit a little spurt and drive a few balls outta the park.. he still is not consistant enough to make as much money as he does..

Ok seriously. Andruw Jones got 18.2 Million a year over 2 years, and only had like 25 dingers last year, with 100+ K, and ok, played dang good Centerfield...

What do you think a guy is going to command who can hit 40 homers and drive in 100 runs, and walk 100 times... ?

Nuxhall41
05-19-2008, 07:32 PM
Based on many of the posts, you would think teams should have been lining up with huge bounties to acquire Dunn for the past several years. But, they weren't. And, they're not.

Dunn is a perfect example where flawed fantasy baseball metrics can fail.

Nasty_Boy
05-19-2008, 08:17 PM
Maybe the Reds had no intrest in trading their best hitter... If he reaches free agency you can bet that teams will be lining up to acquire him.

mound_patrol
05-20-2008, 08:52 AM
Based on many of the posts, you would think teams should have been lining up with huge bounties to acquire Dunn for the past several years. But, they weren't. And, they're not.

Dunn is a perfect example where flawed fantasy baseball metrics can fail.

Last year we didn't hear about too many teams being interested because if Dunn was traded his option year was dropped and he'd be a free agent. This year there wont be too much interest because he'd again be a rent a player. You ever think that could be why teams aren't lining up to give away their best talent.

Dunn had another great night last night. Too bad he couldn't overcome all the other Reds players mistakes last night.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-20-2008, 10:11 AM
sorry but there were MANY times over the past 3 or 4 years that the reds have tried to move dunn but there were no takers.. His salary is much too high for a small market NL team.. sorry but the real loss in the clubhouse will be KG.. and while Dunn might be a funny guy.. his lack of hustle and lack of practice on fundamentals(i.e. learning the GD wall at GABP) has really shown me he cant ever be a leader by example.. at least KG goes out of his way to help the younger guys not only adapt to the game, but gives them pointers to help them out.. Dunn just tries to lighten the mood.. sorry but his clubhouse presence is no more than KG, and on this end of his career he would be alot cheaper to keep around for the sake of a decent power bat, and a clubhouse presence, than adam dunn..

Nasty_Boy
05-20-2008, 10:44 AM
sorry but there were MANY times over the past 3 or 4 years that the reds have tried to move dunn but there were no takers.. His salary is much too high for a small market NL team.. sorry but the real loss in the clubhouse will be KG.. and while Dunn might be a funny guy.. his lack of hustle and lack of practice on fundamentals(i.e. learning the GD wall at GABP) has really shown me he cant ever be a leader by example.. at least KG goes out of his way to help the younger guys not only adapt to the game, but gives them pointers to help them out.. Dunn just tries to lighten the mood.. sorry but his clubhouse presence is no more than KG, and on this end of his career he would be alot cheaper to keep around for the sake of a decent power bat, and a clubhouse presence, than adam dunn..

I'm sure that you know this from your time spent in and around the clubhouse.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-20-2008, 10:49 AM
I'm sure that you know this from your time spent in and around the clubhouse.

No but it is directly from people who are in the clubhouse.. including Marty and George Grande, Chris Welsh.. if you watch TV they say it.. but also the people I know that have interactions in clubhouses.. say the same thing..

mound_patrol
05-20-2008, 11:04 AM
sorry but there were MANY times over the past 3 or 4 years that the reds have tried to move dunn but there were no takers.. His salary is much too high for a small market NL team.. sorry but the real loss in the clubhouse will be KG.. and while Dunn might be a funny guy.. his lack of hustle and lack of practice on fundamentals(i.e. learning the GD wall at GABP) has really shown me he cant ever be a leader by example.. at least KG goes out of his way to help the younger guys not only adapt to the game, but gives them pointers to help them out.. Dunn just tries to lighten the mood.. sorry but his clubhouse presence is no more than KG, and on this end of his career he would be alot cheaper to keep around for the sake of a decent power bat, and a clubhouse presence, than adam dunn..

Dunn has had takers, the Reds haven't received any offers that made them want to pull the trigger.
As far as being a leader or helping younger players. He has worked with Jay Bruce the past two offseasons.

Jack Burton
05-20-2008, 11:16 AM
I say move him while he's hot.

Agreed.

Nasty_Boy
05-20-2008, 11:16 AM
I would believe Marty said that because he never says anything positive. I have never heard Grande and Welsh say such a thing. Everything I have read about Dunn is about his drive to get better and how much his teammates love him. Maybe the guys that say bad things about Dunn are ones he doesn't let get close to him.

Ahhhorsepoo
05-20-2008, 11:24 AM
I would believe Marty said that because he never says anything positive. I have never heard Grande and Welsh say such a thing. Everything I have read about Dunn is about his drive to get better and how much his teammates love him. Maybe the guys that say bad things about Dunn are ones he doesn't let get close to him.

his drive to get better? he still hasnt improved anything about his defense.. after being in GABP for 5 years he still doesnt know anything about the wall behind him.. a simple thing playing LF in batting practice for 1 or 2 months would do.. all you have to do is watch it play off the wall.. but he cant even simply do that..

BLEEDS
05-20-2008, 11:44 AM
soo he is hot because he is batting 6 for 19 this last homestand he is on fire? i think he just happened to hit a little spurt and drive a few balls outta the park.. he still is not consistant enough to make as much money as he does..


actually 7 for his last 16, with 5 HR's, 10 RBI, 3 BB, 3 K, and about 5 clutch hits and a couple walk-offs.

the 3 games before that, he was 0-9 but still managed 3 RBI's with those fancy "Productive Outs" everyone raves about...

His K rate is WAAAAAY down, and he might not even break 150 K's this year.

Okay, let's jump on the "consistantcy" bandwagon next, now that we've jumped off of the "he can't produce" bandwagon...

Pathetic. :thumbdown

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
05-20-2008, 12:08 PM
consitancy.. just because he plays and has the same numbers at the end of the year doesnt mean he is consistant.. he is only on pace to match his stats from the last few years because he is aon a "hot streak".. players like jeff keppinger an bphill are far more consistant.. they have streaks that are both good and bad but they only last a week.. dunns slumps can last a month and his one good week will make his average shoot back up to 225..

he still hasnt proven he can produce runs.. him not being able to bunt at all the other night really proves that he can only do one thing on this team.. swing for the fences and get a homer 1 in a dozen times up.. again he just continues to show deficiencies in his game..

Nasty_Boy
05-20-2008, 12:38 PM
his drive to get better? please tell me you can read.. or have been to a ball game.. he still hasnt improved anything about his defense.. after being in GABP for 5 years he still doesnt know anything about the wall behind him.. a simple thing playing LF in batting practice for 1 or 2 months would do.. all you have to do is watch it play off the wall.. but he cant even simply do that..


Tell me you watched this weekend against Cleveland? He played a ball of the wall pretty well in Sunday's game... What about going into the stands on Saturday? Tell me you read Dusty's comments about how hard Dunn works at his defense. Are you telling me that he doesn't play the wall during BP? Name and instance where he misplayed a ball?

You are really reaching here... :thumbdown

Nasty_Boy
05-20-2008, 12:42 PM
consitancy.. just because he plays and has the same numbers at the end of the year doesnt mean he is consistant.. he is only on pace to match his stats from the last few years because he is aon a "hot streak".. players like jeff keppinger an bphill are far more consistant.. they have streaks that are both good and bad but they only last a week.. dunns slumps can last a month and his one good week will make his average shoot back up to 225..

he still hasnt proven he can produce runs.. him not being able to bunt at all the other night really proves that he can only do one thing on this team.. swing for the fences and get a homer 1 in a dozen times up.. again he just continues to show deficiencies in his game..


He bunted at one pitch! And you talk about Kepp and BP being far more consistant... They are good players but Dunn's numbers are the definition of consistancy, unless you're talking about him decreasing his strikeouts and getting those almighty sacrifice flies that you love. And you saying he doesn't produce runs is just wrong! He is the definition of a player that creates runs... I would say that 100+ RBIs and 100+ runs would qualify as a run producer.

BLEEDS
05-20-2008, 12:45 PM
he still hasnt proven he can produce runs.. him not being able to bunt at all the other night really proves that he can only do one thing on this team.. swing for the fences and get a homer 1 in a dozen times up.. again he just continues to show deficiencies in his game..

Yeah, getting a HR once every 12 times isn't "proof" that he can produce runs.

Either are the 1000's of REAL STATS comparisons run on this site that "prove" Dunn produces runs with the best of them with runners on, etc, not to mention ye olde "Runs Created" analysis.

~40/100/100/100 for 4 years in a row, #2 in OF production over the last 4 years only behind ManRam - all while batting FIFTH (5th) or lower in the batting order (in the NL) - yeah, none of that is PROOF!!!

Maybe, just maybe, that "gut feeling" you have that tells you all you need to know about Dunn is actually just indigestion ?!?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

levydl
05-20-2008, 01:06 PM
consitancy.. just because he plays and has the same numbers at the end of the year doesnt mean he is consistant.. he is only on pace to match his stats from the last few years because he is aon a "hot streak".. players like jeff keppinger an bphill are far more consistant.. they have streaks that are both good and bad but they only last a week.. dunns slumps can last a month and his one good week will make his average shoot back up to 225..

he still hasnt proven he can produce runs.. him not being able to bunt at all the other night really proves that he can only do one thing on this team.. swing for the fences and get a homer 1 in a dozen times up.. again he just continues to show deficiencies in his game..

Yes, if only we could get an outfielder who could sacrifice bunt instead of one that hits 40 bombs, gets 100 RBI, and scores 100 runs a year. Dusty, is it you?

muethibp
05-24-2008, 10:59 AM
Yeah, we need to trade the guy. He doesn't produce runs. He's not clutch. Heck, he couldn't even get a bunt down - people that can't do the little things have no place on this team.

Yet again, Dunn is not clutch...

44Magnum
07-30-2008, 01:53 PM
Why would a team looking for offense honestly want Jr? I don't believe he will turn it around this year. His best days are behind him. Can he rebound and hit .240 with 20 HR's and 75 RBI's? Maybe, but what regular RF wouldn't put up those numbers?

Outside of Seattle, why would any team want him? He is totally washed up!

It looks like Jr. is still on pace.