PDA

View Full Version : Rosenthal on Reds



reds44
05-13-2008, 05:19 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8132546/Win-now-focus-in-Cincy-could-mean-heavy-action-

Not much new info here, but enjoy.


Dusty Baker is a win-now manager, Walt Jocketty a win-now GM, Bob Castellini a win-now owner.

Alas, the Reds need to rebuild.

That means trading right fielder Ken Griffey Jr., left fielder Adam Dunn and any other veterans who can bring a return. It means promoting outfielder Jay Bruce and any other prospects who can make a difference. It means committing to the future, once and for all.

The Reds seem prepared to at least consider such measures; Jocketty recently asked Griffey if he wanted to be traded, according to a major-league source. Griffey replied that his preference was to stay in Cincinnati and try to turn around the Reds' season. But, he added, if the front office wanted to change direction, he would consider a deal.

Jocketty surely isn't ready to sell off parts, not with the July 31 non-waiver deadline still 10 weeks away. But Cincinnati isn't St. Louis, where Jocketty built contenders year after year. Nor is it Chicago or San Francisco, where Baker was accustomed to managing veteran clubs. To fix the Reds, Jocketty and Baker will need to adopt different mindsets. And Castellini, for once, will need to show patience.

As Johnny Cueto's recent struggles show, prospects do not always progress in linear fashion. At the same time, they need to be given every opportunity to advance. Why are the Reds waiting to promote Bruce, who has a .984 OPS at Class AAA? Corey Patterson, their most frequently used center fielder, needed to go 4-for-5 Monday night to raise his on-base percentage to .276.

The Reds are in last place in the NL Central, seven games back. Perhaps they could try to win while building toward the future, the way the Braves did when they promoted Jeff Francoeur and Brian McCann in 2005. But the fact remains: Including Griffey and Dunn, the Reds have 13 potential free agents, the most of any club.

Griffey enjoys full no-trade protection, essentially giving him the right to choose his next team. However, he would not necessarily require a team to exercise his $16.5 million option for 2009 as a condition of a deal. He also is open to a greater number of teams than in the past, when his children were younger and being closer to his home in Orlando was a priority.

The Mariners, the most frequently mentioned possibility for Griffey, are last in the AL with a .579 OPS from the DH spot, yet even further out of first place than the Reds. Griffey, 38, would not be a certain cure-all -- his .717 OPS is more than 200 points below his career mark, and he has gone 63 at-bats since his last home run.

In any case, the next step for the Reds should be obvious. Their management team needs to step backward before going forward, unfamiliar as that path might be

dougdirt
05-13-2008, 05:22 PM
I love it. Scrap the current plan and go with the plan of the man you fired 3 weeks ago. Yeah, I bet that goes over real well with Bob.

WVRedsFan
05-13-2008, 05:38 PM
I love it. Scrap the current plan and go with the plan of the man you fired 3 weeks ago. Yeah, I bet that goes over real well with Bob.

Oh, there was a play three weeks ago? Couldn't prove it by me with the likes of Stanton, Mercker, Hatteberg, Gonzales, etc. involved. Krivsky was responsible for re-signing Dunn and giving out all those extentions to others including Narron.

No, this has to be something different than has been going on the last two years. It's time.

Cyclone792
05-13-2008, 05:44 PM
Dusty Baker is a win-now manager, Walt Jocketty a win-now GM, Bob Castellini a win-now owner.

Alas, the Reds need to rebuild.

I find this quote kind of humorous. Rebuild from what exactly?

Jim Bowden promised fans a winner by 2003 to roll into the new park. He went 66-96 in 2001, 78-84 in 2002, and was what ... 46-58 when he got canned in 2003? Kullman and Maddox came in, and at the orders of one of the worst owners in Reds history (read: Carl Lindner), cleaned some house at the deadline.

So much for that "rebuild" (and yes, Bowden did need to be fired).

Dan O'Brien then comes in to rebuild the team in 2004. He goes 76-86 in 2004 before deciding to sign the worst pitcher in Reds history (Read: Eric Milton) to ~$25 mil for 3 years to help clean up the rotation. Milton stunk before he was a Red, stunk even more as a Red, and O'Brien finishes up 2005 at 73-89. Bob Castellini buys the team in the 2005-06 offseason and fires Dan O'Brien.

So much for that "rebuild" (and yes, O'Brien did need to be fired).

Castellini hires Wayne Krivsky in the spring of 2006. Krivsky goes 80-82 in 2006 and then 72-90 in 2007 before being fired in 2008 during the first few weeks of the season. Now with Jocketty running the show people are once again talking rebuild, which involves now trading Dunn (for realistically what, people probably do not know and probably do not want to believe).

So is it - for the third time in five years - once again ... so much for that rebuild? If that's the case, then this organization is 0-3 in rebuilds in just five years. I'm not quite sure what it is other than an impressive display of incompetence.

Not to mention that all the while during each of these "rebuilds" the team managed to finish no better than 80-82 in any one season.

cincyinco
05-13-2008, 05:45 PM
Something different?

Are you kidding me?

if Krivsky had been allowed to fully embrace a rebuilding philosophy without having the silly "win now" mantra hanging above his head, who knows what he might have been able to do.

He certainly set himself up for most of the FA's to be gone at this pending juncture. Who knows what that could have freed up, what talent that might have brought end. Who knows how many picks Krivsky may have acquired. What talent we'd bring back.

Its at least obvious to me, Krivsky rebuilt and replenished this farm system in quick fashion. From laughing stock and barren to depth with star prospects sprinkled in. More importantly, in my mind, he deserves credit for being able to "develope" the prospect moreso than any GM in recent Cincinnati memory.

This, in my mind, would make him ideal for a rebuilding effort..

This is change that needed to happen. But its been a long time coming, more than 2 years. And you had the GM to do it, in house a month ago.

mth123
05-13-2008, 08:30 PM
The thing is, a classic rebuild is where talented, older, high priced players are replaced with cheaper less productive youngsters in an attempt to re-tool and develop into a better future. I don't see that as the thing here. Dealing Griffey and replacing him with Bruce (even if Bruce disappoints) is an immediate upgrade, not a step back. It improves the offense, defense, team speed and, by virtue of making the routine plays, the pitching. That isn't rebuild, that's improvement. Its a very rare occasion where all facets of a team can be improved so dramatically with one move. That is the situation here.

BCubb2003
05-14-2008, 12:08 PM
The Reds have five-year plans and two-year attention spans.

Chip R
05-14-2008, 12:17 PM
The Reds have five-year plans and two-year attention spans.


:lol: It's funny because it's true.

Cyclone792
05-14-2008, 12:17 PM
The Reds have five-year plans and two-year attention spans.

That pretty much sums it up there.

edabbs44
05-14-2008, 12:18 PM
The thing is, a classic rebuild is where talented, older, high priced players are replaced with cheaper less productive youngsters in an attempt to re-tool and develop into a better future. I don't see that as the thing here. Dealing Griffey and replacing him with Bruce (even if Bruce disappoints) is an immediate upgrade, not a step back. It improves the offense, defense, team speed and, by virtue of making the routine plays, the pitching. That isn't rebuild, that's improvement. Its a very rare occasion where all facets of a team can be improved so dramatically with one move. That is the situation here.

Yep...easy as 1-2-3. Now they just have to find a willing team to take on Junior.

Reds1
05-14-2008, 12:19 PM
I'd say trading Griffey, calling up Bruce, and taking the money and adding a 5th pitcher isn't rebuilding - it's a quick fix that could put this team over the top. :) Just my opinion. I love griffey and a piece of me wants him to stay, but the lost range and power just doesn't make him or anyone else worth that money. Especially, when you have a guy like Bruce in AAA. I'm ok with Dunn here. We don't have a replacement for him. :)

Kc61
05-14-2008, 12:24 PM
The Reds are half rebuilt. They need the other half to be rebuilt.

The infield is basically rebuilt. Shortstop is now a little up in the air, but there are a lot of candidates, with Gonzo, Kepp(after injury), Janish and lower minor league guys.

The rotation and bullpen are well on their way to being rebuilt. Still work to do though.

The outfield needs to be rebuilt, but Jay Bruce is a huge step in that direction.

Catching needs to be rebuilt.

The bench is functional and can be handled more on a year-to-year basis.

I think this is a good article which is correct to a degree, that the Reds should rely mostly on prospects to rebuild the rest of the team. But I think there will be a need for an outfielder (righty bat) and catcher from the outside. Maybe another pitcher or two from the outside.

The Reds are in much better shape than the article suggests. But I agree that the main source of new players should be the farm.

RedsManRick
05-14-2008, 12:30 PM
We're in something like year 3 of a 5 year rebuilding plan. We're actually on a pretty nice track fiscally and talent wise. The problem seems to be that nobody seems to be managing the organization to this end...

edabbs44
05-14-2008, 01:01 PM
We're in something like year 3 of a 5 year rebuilding plan. We're actually on a pretty nice track fiscally and talent wise. The problem seems to be that nobody seems to be managing the organization to this end...

I've never seen a rebuilding plan involve escalating payrolls and records set for spending the most money ever on a FA reliever.

edabbs44
05-14-2008, 01:01 PM
The Reds are half rebuilt. They need the other half to be rebuilt.

The infield is basically rebuilt. Shortstop is now a little up in the air, but there are a lot of candidates, with Gonzo, Kepp(after injury), Janish and lower minor league guys.

The rotation and bullpen are well on their way to being rebuilt. Still work to do though.

The outfield needs to be rebuilt, but Jay Bruce is a huge step in that direction.

Catching needs to be rebuilt.

The bench is functional and can be handled more on a year-to-year basis.

I think this is a good article which is correct to a degree, that the Reds should rely mostly on prospects to rebuild the rest of the team. But I think there will be a need for an outfielder (righty bat) and catcher from the outside. Maybe another pitcher or two from the outside.

The Reds are in much better shape than the article suggests. But I agree that the main source of new players should be the farm.

The way it is going, by the time the 2nd half is rebuilt the 1st half is going to need some rebuilding.

paulrichjr
05-14-2008, 04:11 PM
Something different?

Are you kidding me?

if Krivsky had been allowed to fully embrace a rebuilding philosophy without having the silly "win now" mantra hanging above his head, who knows what he might have been able to do.




I agree with what you said except the silly "win now" mantra came from Krivsky. He was hired because he convinced Cast that the Reds could "win now" and win in the future. He brought it upon himself. Personally I like the way the Indians and Marlins do it.... Say what you want about the Marlins...when they win they win (it all).

Bowden never would fold when he needed to fold. DanO couldn't because he was too scared and ownership wouldn't let him make some deals that needed to be made...like trade Griffey to the White Sox. Krivs was on the right track but now we start over again.

edabbs44
05-14-2008, 06:13 PM
Something different?

Are you kidding me?

if Krivsky had been allowed to fully embrace a rebuilding philosophy without having the silly "win now" mantra hanging above his head, who knows what he might have been able to do.

The problem is that he accepted the job with that mantra. Look at it this way:

You go for an interview at a job. They tell you that they need to increase production within the next 2 years. You say that you can do it. You fail at that, but arguably did some positive things that may increase production 5 years from now.

Do you think you should still have a job?


He certainly set himself up for most of the FA's to be gone at this pending juncture. Who knows what that could have freed up, what talent that might have brought end. Who knows how many picks Krivsky may have acquired. What talent we'd bring back.

Much of Krivsky's legend will be based on the unknown. He put together a lackluster team but he might have has a WS winner on his hands down the road.

Great. Bottom line is that he failed at the task handed to him.

Do I think that they should have ripped this team apart 2 years ago? Absolutely. But they foolishly didn't, whether that be Bob or Wayne's fault.


Its at least obvious to me, Krivsky rebuilt and replenished this farm system in quick fashion. From laughing stock and barren to depth with star prospects sprinkled in. More importantly, in my mind, he deserves credit for being able to "develope" the prospect moreso than any GM in recent Cincinnati memory.

Another Krivsky legend, especially when he reaps the rewards of some good names already present.

Since he gets credit for some of the winners, does he get credit for Homer's languishing in the minors? How about Stubbs' lackluster beginning? What about Sean Watson's post Low A fiascos? The stalling of Travis Wood?


This, in my mind, would make him ideal for a rebuilding effort..

This is change that needed to happen. But its been a long time coming, more than 2 years. And you had the GM to do it, in house a month ago.

To each their own.