PDA

View Full Version : I can't let go.



TRF
05-14-2008, 06:03 PM
I know Jay Bruce is the future of the Reds. I've always been ok with "the future". I wanted EE up a year earlier than he arrived. Same with Votto. I'm ready for Bailey and Thompson in the rotation to toe the rubber alongside Cueto and Volquez.

I'm ready for Jay Bruce. So why can't I let go of Griffey?

In another thread M2 stated the following:


The Reds need to stop caring about all of that stuff. None of it matters and it won't take long for a kid like Bruce to make Jr. nothing more than an afterthought.

An afterthought? Really? The greatest CF of my and arguably any generation an afterthought? Have we really reached that point that the trophy matters so much more that we can cast aside players of his stature? I rooted for the Reds not because they were from Cincinnati (I lived in Arizona when I "discovered" baseball and the Reds. I moved to Cincinnati when I was 11) But because of the players. I had two favorites: Morgan and Concepcion. Mom liked Rose, Grandma, Bench. I followed those players regardless of the uniform they wore.

Yes, I know his range is gone. He's a pale shadow of his former greatness. But let's examine that word, "greatness" for a moment. Is there any Reds player in the last decade that was truly great? Maybe Barry Larkin. But as good as he was, Larkin was not quite elite.

Griffey was elite. And I am selfish. I want to see him win. It killed me every time he got hurt. I devoured every word written about his rehab. None of us will probably ever go through anything like what Jr. endured. He came back when lesser men would have quit. And through all that he's never been linked to any controversy or scandal. No drugs. No women. No cheating. He's a role model in every sense of the word, and better yet, he KNOWS he's a role model. For all the feel good puff pieces about Josh Hamilton's amazing comeback from drugs, Griffey's return was no less amazing.

I'm about 3 years older than Griffey. I've heard or read about him my entire adult life, and like a lot of you was in High School in Cincinnati about the same time he was. He should be the face of Cincinnati, not Rose. He should be the ideal that our kids aspire to, not a degenerate gambler.

But now Cincinnati has drafted and developed Jay Bruce. He's been compared to Griffey by a guy that managed both of them at about the same age. He has nothing left to prove in AAA, as he's destroying that league. He needs to be in Cincinnati helping a good young nucleus on the road to the World Series.

My head knows this.

My heart wants to see Griffey and the sweetest swing God created, stay a Red forever.

So please forgive me if I have trouble reading about "dumping" Griffey. I'm sure there were discussions like this in the late 60's about Mays too. It's funny how we discard our baseball heroes.

I'm just not ready to let this one go just yet.

AmarilloRed
05-14-2008, 06:09 PM
We all remember how great Griffey was when we traded for him. I wish he could have had a great career in Cincinnati, but the injuries did him in. It is time to wish Griffey the best, and see what Jay Bruce can do in RF.

dabvu2498
05-14-2008, 06:09 PM
I know this won't be a very popular thing for me to say, but I have almost no "warm and fuzzy" memories of the Ken Griffey Jr. Era of the Cincinnati Reds.

That's just me.

Joseph
05-14-2008, 06:10 PM
I'd wager many share the feelings in your heart TRF. I'd just also wager that for Cincinnati to finally get better, Junior must be part of the wound that is cleansed.

fearofpopvol1
05-14-2008, 06:11 PM
I think your sentiments are what the majority of Reds fans (not posting at RZ) feel. And I think it's that exact emotional connection that is keeping KGJ around.

It's not so easy to trade the guy or sit him. It's just not. There just is not an easy answer to this one.

membengal
05-14-2008, 06:11 PM
I really have not seen the Jr. you pine for since August of 2000 here. After that, it has been the long injury-riddled decline to what we see today.

I am ready for it to be over. I want better things for Kenny. I want him to go home to Seattle and finish it up with a fan-base that adores him and harbors nothing but great memories of him in his prime. Too many of our memories as Reds fans are shrouded by the injuries and relative disappointment of his years here.

It's time. Turn the page. Get Bruce up. Get Jr. home. Everyone wins. Time to move on.

PS: I am Jr.'s age. 37 turning 38 this year. Let him go home.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-14-2008, 06:13 PM
After nine years, I can let go.

Very good post, though. I understand what you are feeling, but I want to win.

westofyou
05-14-2008, 06:14 PM
Pete up and left the Reds in 1979.

Since then (for me) letting go has become extremely easy.

Tommyjohn25
05-14-2008, 06:17 PM
I really do understand where you are coming from TRF. However like others here, I don't have too many glossy eyed memories of Junior sans 2000. I've never really had that hard of a time when players leave honestly, I just kind of move on and root for the replacement wearing the wishbone C. Now, when they lose....that's when I can't let go. ;)

RedsManRick
05-14-2008, 06:17 PM
It's funny, I have the exact opposite feelings. I feel like Junior becoming a Red ruined his career. I know the injuries and whatnot would likely have occurred wherever. But after everything, I just associate Junior with disappointment and pain. He's the embodiment of unfulfilled promise for the franchise. His status as a Red went straight from surreal good to surreal bad in the course of a few years.

Let me put in this way. In the early 90's I was a pre-teen in State College, PA. Penn State Football was huge. Ki-Jana Carter was the best player on our team. In 1995, in the midst my formative sports years, my favorite football team traded up to the #1 pick to draft MY Ki-Jana Carter. About 74 knee surgeries later, Ki-Jana goes down as one of the, if not the, worst #1 picks of all times and the Bengals have made the playoffs just once since.

Griffey is that all over again, only over a longer period of time and with a team I care even more about. I don't even care about 600 at this point. The crawl to 600 is just be a reminder that it's not 700. I wish him the very best, but he can't be traded fast enough for me.

I think he's a great human being. He's clearly a Hall of Famer and one of the greatest players of this generation. But he's a Mariner, not a Red. Maybe it's callous, but I can't get past that and I won't miss Griffey Jr. the Red.

TRF
05-14-2008, 06:19 PM
I really have not seen the Jr. you pine for since August of 2000 here. After that, it has been the long injury-riddled decline to what we see today.

I am ready for it to be over. I want better things for Kenny. I want him to go home to Seattle and finish it up with a fan-base that adores him and harbors nothing but great memories of him in his prime. Too many of our memories as Reds fans are shrouded by the injuries and relative disappointment of his years here.

It's time. Turn the page. Get Bruce up. Get Jr. home. Everyone wins. Time to move on.

PS: I am Jr.'s age. 37 turning 38 this year. Let him go home.

I've followed him his entire career. It isn't just about the 9 years with the Reds at all. To me, Griffey is baseball.


Pete up and left the Reds in 1979.

Since then (for me) letting go has become extremely easy. I was 11. Read his boxscores with Philadelphia, shook my head when I saw him with le Expos. It was like the prodigal son had returned when he came back as player-manager. He should have been so much more. But I still read anything with his name attatched to it, even PJ Rose articles garner my attention.

M2
05-14-2008, 06:20 PM
TRF, great post. I empathize with you, though I'd add Jr.'s never been great with the Reds. He lost his range in 2001 and his bat, while often very good, has never been great while wearing the wishbone C. In the future, when I picture the guy in my mind, at the height of his game, it'll be in a Mariners uniform.

I respect the hell out of the guy. Like you said, he's a player I can point to and tell my son, "Be like him." I value that, but I also recognize he's been the wrong fit for this franchise for at least five years. He and the Reds deserve better.

Highlifeman21
05-14-2008, 06:20 PM
Good Stuff TRF.

Unfortunately, Griffey is now this generation's Mays (no, not Joe Mays, but Willie Mays). My Dad made a comment to me the other that watching Griffey now reminds him of watching Mays at the end of Mays' career. While I wasn't around to see Mays, I'm wondering if there are some parallels here.

I'd love for Griffey to remain a Red for the rest of his career (at a reasonable price, and playing 1B, mind you), but right now Griffey is the biggest thing hurting the future of the Reds. I don't like thinking that, much less typing that, but I honestly believe it.

membengal
05-14-2008, 06:24 PM
I've followed him his entire career. It isn't just about the 9 years with the Reds at all. To me, Griffey is baseball.

I was 11. Read his boxscores with Philadelphia, shook my head when I saw him with le Expos. It was like the prodigal son had returned when he came back as player-manager. He should have been so much more. But I still read anything with his name attatched to it, even PJ Rose articles garner my attention.

TRF...I know you have. I have too. That's why I want him to go back to Seattle, to the fanbase that most easily recalls those memories of him in his glory.

TRF
05-14-2008, 06:27 PM
I'd love for Griffey to remain a Red for the rest of his career (at a reasonable price, and playing 1B, mind you), but right now Griffey is the biggest thing hurting the future of the Reds. I don't like thinking that, much less typing that, but I honestly believe it.

I know. me too.

lollipopcurve
05-14-2008, 06:28 PM
Fantastic post, TRF. As much as we attach ourselves to a team, its the devotion we feel to individual players that makes each of us unique as a fan.

MrCinatit
05-14-2008, 06:31 PM
Great, great post, TRF.
I would love to see Junior the player from the '90s with the Reds - along with the personality he has today.
But, that player never knew the meaning of the words "slow down". Unfortunately, that attitude with a little bit of help from astroturf put a lot of hurting on those knees. At times, it is downright painful watching him on the field - and I think he is slowly coming to realize this.
I'd love nothing more to see the Smile in the Pile here in Cincinnati, but it most likely will not happen.
Junior is that last childhood gasp which is still breathing. I still remember a picture of him as a kid playing in a father/son game (I think Concepcion and his kid was in the same picture). I remember him being lead by his dad, and as a kid, thinking how that kid was one of the luckiest kids in the world.
And now, that lucky kid is still in a Reds uniform, the last of the sons of the Big Red Machine to take the field (I think). Seeing him play his last game in a Reds uniform would be great - but, it will not happen. That is a lot for me to digest.

bucksfan
05-14-2008, 06:34 PM
Baseball is a delicate mix for me between desperately wanting players on "your" team that you like/admire for whatever reason vs. steadfastly and (sometimes) heartlessly doing exactly what is determined to be best for the team. I often have difficulty with this same type of an issue.

A large reason I am a baseball fan is because of a combination of the actual game and the way we get to know the personalties (in some small way) that play the game. With that it is only natural that some of us are attached to or at least very confortable with those identities playing on the teams we root for. When those things change it is usually not comfortable. Tony Perez was the first for me (and it will certainly be the worst).

I can't blame anyone for wanting the team to hold on to their favorite players, even when in varying degrees it may fly in the face of the prevailing "what's best for the team" logic. It's part of being a fan to me.

It's also why I don't typically like to discuss the players casually as being "worthless, expendable, unnecessary" etc nor do I enjoy considering radical makeovers of the team. If I sat here just so drastically unhappy with the team all the time, I would not be able to follow them in an enjoyable manner. And for me baseball is about enjoyment, a recreation, a pasttime... When I start think how I am dissatisified with 50% of the roster, and that radical changes are required, etc, I am not going to be able to enjoy the day-to-day joy that baseball normally provides. Instead I just try to embrace what we have, at times hope for some occasional transaction (usually only when driven by a personality issue), always thinking a 5-game winning streak is just around the corner.

Focusing on the negative is just not enjoyable to me for a fun, recreastional pasttime, so I generally try not to. I acknowledge it certainly, much as I had to acknowledge that keeping Sean Casey really was not the way to go. And I got over his departure and am enjoying young Mr Votto. But had Casey stayed, whiel I might privately acknowledge that we could do better with our $, I don't think I ever would have complained.

That is how I roll....

lollipopcurve
05-14-2008, 06:37 PM
A large reason I am a baseball fan is because of a combination of the actual game and the way we get to know the personalties (in some small way) that play the game. With that it is only natural that some of us are attached to or at least very confortable with those identities playing on the teams we root for. When those things change it is usually not comfortable. Tony Perez was the first for me (and it will certainly be the worst).

I can't blame anyone for wanting the team to hold on to their favorite players, even when in varying degrees it may fly in the face of the prevailing "what's best for the team" logic. It's part of being a fan to me.

It's also why I don't typically like to discuss the players casually as being "worthless, expendable, unnecessary" etc nor do I enjoy considering radical makeovers of the team. If I sat here just so drastically unhappy with the team all the time, I would not be able to follow them in an enjoyable manner. And for me baseball is about enjoyment, a recreation, a pasttime... When I start think how I am dissatisified with 50% of the roster, and that radical changes are required, etc, I am not going to be able to enjoy the day-to-day joy that baseball normally provides. Instead I just try to embrace what we have, at times hope for some occasional transaction (usually only when driven by a personality issue), always thinking a 5-game winning streak is just around the corner.

Focusing on the negative is just not enjoyable to me for a fun, recreastional pasttime, so I generally try not to. I acknowledge it certainly, much as I had to acknowledge that keeping Sean Casey really was not the way to go. And I got over his departure and am enjoying young Mr Votto. But had Casey stayed, whiel I might privately acknowledge that we could do better with our $, I don't think I ever would have complained.

That is how I roll....

Wow -- that's one of the best posts I've ever read here. Hats off, bucksfan. I feel almost exactly the same way.

Cyclone792
05-14-2008, 06:40 PM
Yes, I know his range is gone. He's a pale shadow of his former greatness. But let's examine that word, "greatness" for a moment. Is there any Reds player in the last decade that was truly great? Maybe Barry Larkin. But as good as he was, Larkin was not quite elite.

I'd argue that Larkin truly was great. He is probably one of the 100 greatest players ever, and that'd be truly great for me. Griffey is obviously quite a bit higher up that list so he's even a higher class of truly great.

Anyhow, I know you're feeling because I share it too somewhat. I remember - quite vividly - the tear that Griffey went on last year in May and June. I even created a thread (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57710) highlighting its historical significance in certain ways, though the historical significance lessened as Griffey cooled off.

But man that May and June he put together last season was just amazing. It was vintage Griffey at the plate. It was 20 home runs in two months, an OPS of 1.000 over that time span. It was pitchers noticeably nervous on the mound each time he came up to the plate. He was absolutely feared. Not merely respected like he still is now, but feared. Griffey, the hitter, was back during those two months in May and June last year.

It's that kind of stretch he had last season that makes each of us hope he's got something like that left in him, and if he does you really want it to happen again as a Red. You sit back and watch him nightly, and you just hope he can revert back to that form, if even for one game.

Oddly, in a way that two month stretch was a bit of closure for me regarding Griffey. I had waited for a half dozen years for Griffey to deliver that sort of dominance for any length of time, and he delivered it ... quite possibly for the last time. And as I was watching him light up NL pitchers, I realized this may be the last time we ever see the dominant Griffey again.

That's why the head says deal him as soon as possible, because it's what's best for the franchise ... while the heart says keep him around, because we hope for another flash of brilliance, even if it's a dimming hope.

reds44
05-14-2008, 06:45 PM
Here's one of the many reasons to love Junir.

http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog/2008/05/14/big_league_gag



Reds reliever Josh Fogg walked into the clubhouse Wednesday and couldn't find his glove.

It's not that his glove wasn't in his locker, but it's that it was behind 60 boxes of pennies, weighing 16 pounds each and worth $25 each.

Ken Griffey Jr. owed Fogg $1,500.

"When you owe a man $1,500, you pay him $1,500," Griffey said.

Fogg, couldn't believe it. He said Griffey told him he'd pay him in pennies, but he didn't believe it.

"I'd like to thank the people at National City for making it happen," Griffey said.

Not to mention the clubhouse crew that brought in the pennies and stacked them in Fogg's locker.

"I'm going to take them to the bullpen and count them, I'm free for about nine innings," Fogg said.

Bullpen catcher Mike Stefanski offered Fogg a $1,000 check for the pile and said he'd move them out of his locker for them. Fogg asked Stefanski if he wanted to help count them in the bullpen.

Griffey said he wanted to have them delivered in bags, but he would have felt bad for the people at the bank who would have to count them when Fogg deposited his booty.

Noticing the Brinks stamp on the boxes, Fogg said, "They probably brought them in the Brinks truck with Griffey's paycheck."

Still, Fogg was in disbelief that it actually happened.

"There's not much with a bank I can't do," Griffey said. "Including bouncing it."

Everyone in the clubhouse was pretty impressed by the joke.

"Someone had to keep everyone in this locker room from killing each other," Griffey said.

Roy Tucker
05-14-2008, 06:45 PM
Baseball is a delicate mix for me between desperately wanting players on "your" team that you like/admire for whatever reason vs. steadfastly and (sometimes) heartlessly doing exactly what is determined to be best for the team. I often have difficulty with this same type of an issue.

A large reason I am a baseball fan is because of a combination of the actual game and the way we get to know the personalties (in some small way) that play the game. With that it is only natural that some of us are attached to or at least very confortable with those identities playing on the teams we root for. When those things change it is usually not comfortable. Tony Perez was the first for me (and it will certainly be the worst).

I can't blame anyone for wanting the team to hold on to their favorite players, even when in varying degrees it may fly in the face of the prevailing "what's best for the team" logic. It's part of being a fan to me.

It's also why I don't typically like to discuss the players casually as being "worthless, expendable, unnecessary" etc nor do I enjoy considering radical makeovers of the team. If I sat here just so drastically unhappy with the team all the time, I would not be able to follow them in an enjoyable manner. And for me baseball is about enjoyment, a recreation, a pasttime... When I start think how I am dissatisified with 50% of the roster, and that radical changes are required, etc, I am not going to be able to enjoy the day-to-day joy that baseball normally provides. Instead I just try to embrace what we have, at times hope for some occasional transaction (usually only when driven by a personality issue), always thinking a 5-game winning streak is just around the corner.

Focusing on the negative is just not enjoyable to me for a fun, recreastional pasttime, so I generally try not to. I acknowledge it certainly, much as I had to acknowledge that keeping Sean Casey really was not the way to go. And I got over his departure and am enjoying young Mr Votto. But had Casey stayed, whiel I might privately acknowledge that we could do better with our $, I don't think I ever would have complained.

That is how I roll....

Heartfelt post and where I come from too. I'd make a really bad GM.

:thumbup:

fearofpopvol1
05-14-2008, 06:58 PM
Baseball is a delicate mix for me between desperately wanting players on "your" team that you like/admire for whatever reason vs. steadfastly and (sometimes) heartlessly doing exactly what is determined to be best for the team. I often have difficulty with this same type of an issue.

A large reason I am a baseball fan is because of a combination of the actual game and the way we get to know the personalties (in some small way) that play the game. With that it is only natural that some of us are attached to or at least very confortable with those identities playing on the teams we root for. When those things change it is usually not comfortable. Tony Perez was the first for me (and it will certainly be the worst).

I can't blame anyone for wanting the team to hold on to their favorite players, even when in varying degrees it may fly in the face of the prevailing "what's best for the team" logic. It's part of being a fan to me.

It's also why I don't typically like to discuss the players casually as being "worthless, expendable, unnecessary" etc nor do I enjoy considering radical makeovers of the team. If I sat here just so drastically unhappy with the team all the time, I would not be able to follow them in an enjoyable manner. And for me baseball is about enjoyment, a recreation, a pasttime... When I start think how I am dissatisified with 50% of the roster, and that radical changes are required, etc, I am not going to be able to enjoy the day-to-day joy that baseball normally provides. Instead I just try to embrace what we have, at times hope for some occasional transaction (usually only when driven by a personality issue), always thinking a 5-game winning streak is just around the corner.

Focusing on the negative is just not enjoyable to me for a fun, recreastional pasttime, so I generally try not to. I acknowledge it certainly, much as I had to acknowledge that keeping Sean Casey really was not the way to go. And I got over his departure and am enjoying young Mr Votto. But had Casey stayed, whiel I might privately acknowledge that we could do better with our $, I don't think I ever would have complained.

That is how I roll....

Fantastic post. I think the one thing you hit on (or were close to hitting on) that is particularly relevant is that sometimes the joy of the game is overtaken by business-minded decisions and looking out for the future of the franchise. The longer players are with the franchise, the more you become attached to them (especially when they're good). Unfortunately, aging is inevitable and like anything in life, you can't hold on forever. The emotional connection can be a really tough thing for some people.

cincrazy
05-14-2008, 07:03 PM
Absolutely wonderful post.

Griffey signifies many things for me. Him being traded to Cincinnati coincided with my emergence as a diehard baseball fan... I'm 22, and fell hard over heels for the Reds around the age of 11, and two or three years later Griffey was traded. Coming off of the 1999 season, I was POSITIVE we were going to not only one World Series in 2000, but many more to come.

I was young. I was naive. I believed Bowden when he said we had good pitching. Every injury to Griffey was like a knife to my heart. My dad and my uncle grew up with the Big Red Machine, with memories to last a lifetime... and I was growing up with this? With my favorite player being carted off the field every month?

A part of me was so excited for this year because I thought to myself "THIS IS THE YEAR!" It may be his last year with us, but it's the year we'll turn it around, and he'll go out with a playoff appearance.

Sadly, here we are again. Several games back in May. Griffey looks every bit of 38 years old. And the only memories of him we have aren't good from his time with the Reds.

I asked a friend last week, "At what point did the butterflies in your stomach stop upon seeing Griffey in the lineup?" Upon his arrival in Cincinnati, I always got butterflies. Every return from the DL, I was elated that "The Kid" was back. But at some point it all stopped. At some point, it became just another name. And that's the true tragedy of it all. I didn't look at his name any differently than I did a Pena, or a Kearns, or anyone else. He was just another player.

It breaks my heart to see it end like this. But end it must, for his sake and for our's. I hope we trade him, he catches fire, and he leads the charge for a pennant for whomever we trade him to.

"The Kid" never showed up in Cincinnati. But as sad as that is, that doesn't make me love the man that he's become any less.


I know Jay Bruce is the future of the Reds. I've always been ok with "the future". I wanted EE up a year earlier than he arrived. Same with Votto. I'm ready for Bailey and Thompson in the rotation to toe the rubber alongside Cueto and Volquez.

I'm ready for Jay Bruce. So why can't I let go of Griffey?

In another thread M2 stated the following:



An afterthought? Really? The greatest CF of my and arguably any generation an afterthought? Have we really reached that point that the trophy matters so much more that we can cast aside players of his stature? I rooted for the Reds not because they were from Cincinnati (I lived in Arizona when I "discovered" baseball and the Reds. I moved to Cincinnati when I was 11) But because of the players. I had two favorites: Morgan and Concepcion. Mom liked Rose, Grandma, Bench. I followed those players regardless of the uniform they wore.

Yes, I know his range is gone. He's a pale shadow of his former greatness. But let's examine that word, "greatness" for a moment. Is there any Reds player in the last decade that was truly great? Maybe Barry Larkin. But as good as he was, Larkin was not quite elite.

Griffey was elite. And I am selfish. I want to see him win. It killed me every time he got hurt. I devoured every word written about his rehab. None of us will probably ever go through anything like what Jr. endured. He came back when lesser men would have quit. And through all that he's never been linked to any controversy or scandal. No drugs. No women. No cheating. He's a role model in every sense of the word, and better yet, he KNOWS he's a role model. For all the feel good puff pieces about Josh Hamilton's amazing comeback from drugs, Griffey's return was no less amazing.

I'm about 3 years older than Griffey. I've heard or read about him my entire adult life, and like a lot of you was in High School in Cincinnati about the same time he was. He should be the face of Cincinnati, not Rose. He should be the ideal that our kids aspire to, not a degenerate gambler.

But now Cincinnati has drafted and developed Jay Bruce. He's been compared to Griffey by a guy that managed both of them at about the same age. He has nothing left to prove in AAA, as he's destroying that league. He needs to be in Cincinnati helping a good young nucleus on the road to the World Series.

My head knows this.

My heart wants to see Griffey and the sweetest swing God created, stay a Red forever.

So please forgive me if I have trouble reading about "dumping" Griffey. I'm sure there were discussions like this in the late 60's about Mays too. It's funny how we discard our baseball heroes.

I'm just not ready to let this one go just yet.

westofyou
05-14-2008, 07:05 PM
Before I became a Reds fan I was a Tigers fan. Being a Tiger fan in the 60's/70's skewed reality:

The Tigers hold the record for most season 9 players were on the same squad (10 years)
The Tigers hold the record for most season 8 players were on the same squad (11 years)
The Tigers hold the record for most season 7 players were on the same squad (11 years)
The Tigers hold the record for most season 6 players were on the same squad (12 years)
The Tigers hold the record for most season 5 players were on the same squad (12 years)
The Tigers hold the record for most season 4 players were on the same squad (13 years)

Teams used to keep players forever, the fact that Griffey is still on the Reds is more surprising to me than anything.

TRF
05-14-2008, 07:09 PM
The game has changed so much since the mid 70's. I doubt we'll ever see players like Larkin , Ripken and Gwynn again. One team for their entire career. Jay Bruce hasn't had a single MLB AB, and I know he won't retire a Red.

Somehow that makes me sad. Just a little. I know it's better for the players, and perhaps for the game itself. Guess I need to live in the now a bit more.

*BaseClogger*
05-14-2008, 07:19 PM
What a wonderful thread. It just about brings a tear to my eyes... :)

RFS62
05-14-2008, 09:02 PM
Killer posts TRF and Bucksfan

:beerme:

Raisor
05-14-2008, 09:11 PM
Somehow that makes me sad. Just a little. I know it's better for the players, and perhaps for the game itself. Guess I need to live in the now a bit more.


Well, you've still got Jeter, Chipper, and Posada :)

top6
05-14-2008, 09:43 PM
Here's one of the many reasons to love Junir.

http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog/2008/05/14/big_league_gag

This is funny, sure, but it's also sort of an a-hole thing for a multi-millionaire to do to someone who, while probably better off than most of us, is not nearly as rich. Put another way, I doubt $1500 means very much to Griffey, but it probably means something to J. Fogg.

Griffey has a mean and selfish streak about him. I root for him like crazy, but I think a lot of people forget that some of the problems he had here are self-inflicted. He and Larkin left during the last game in St. Louis that one year. He tried to get Tony Perez's number. He never ran out ground balls, which I don't care about too much, but in Cincinnati is sort of the equivilent of spitting on the flag. (In fairness, we didn't always know how hurt he was playing.) Watch him on the on-deck circle some time, he's hardly ever watching - you know - the pitcher, he's usually talking to a fan. That kind of annoys me, and I refuse to believe that he is go great that he wouldn't benefit from paying more attention.

Now, I am a big Griffey fan, and I really don't like the way Cincinnati treats its star athletes. (See, e.g., Dunn, Adam; Johnson, Chad (until the last few months, now he deserves it).) I always defend him - to non-Reds fans. That said, the story is a lot more complicated than injuries. In some ways, he is to blame for his run here falling so far short of expectations.

westofyou
05-14-2008, 09:48 PM
Josh Fogg has made $7,092,000 in his career, he will not be getting my sympathy.

top6
05-14-2008, 09:58 PM
Josh Fogg has made $7,092,000 in his career, he will not be getting my sympathy.
Fair enough.

TeamBoone
05-14-2008, 10:15 PM
I know this won't be a very popular thing for me to say, but I have almost no "warm and fuzzy" memories of the Ken Griffey Jr. Era of the Cincinnati Reds.

That's just me.

He's talking about Jr's career... period. Not just his time with the Reds.

Personally, I think that's a wonderful post, and I have to agree with it in every way.

reds44
05-15-2008, 01:40 AM
Here's one of the many reasons to love Junir.

http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog/2008/05/14/big_league_gag
Best. Picture. Ever.
http://images.onesite.com/thelotd.com/user/ctrent/img_0023.jpg

WVRedsFan
05-15-2008, 01:53 AM
Both TRF and Bucksfan gets kudos from me for good posts. I sympathize with TRF's feelings. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person alive who appreciates Griffey for what's he's been and still is, but that's another post for another day. Mark this down. He will be very difficult to move and he may be with us for a long time.

I identify with Bucksfan. I want baseball, and especially the Reds, to be fun. I want to enjoy the summer and the games, but the last 8 years have made that impossible. Is there hope? I see very little evidence of that. Just tonight, we saw what we thought was a decent bullpen come in and once again blow a game--almost. Hasn't that been going on...forever? It makes me grouchy and disgusted. But I can't look away. Funny how that works.

I'm older than most of the members of this site. I'm nearing my 6th decade on this earth (making me older than RFS62 and most of the others here) I jsut may have a little more respect for those who have done the right thing for a long time in one place. I do not subscribe to the theory that Junior keeps us from winning games. Sorry, I just don't see how a team who is giving up so many runs with poor pitching from the bullpen and keeps losing game after game, season after season, can blame it's foul state on one player who probably isn't as fast as he once was and will still hit better than most. But that's just old sentimental me. Please bear with me when I praise Ken Griffey, Jr. He's a sure HOF'er and has always been a hero to me. The talk of dumping him reminds me too much of the business world where people are put out to pasture because they don't look so pretty anymore. And I hate that.

mth123
05-15-2008, 06:49 AM
If you are really a Griffey fan, consider the other side. Griffey deserves the chance to go out where he had his glory and to do so in a manner that allows him to play without embarrassing himself on a nightly basis (that means DH). A tour around the AL as a DH for the team where he really does have an historic past is much more fitting than him looking like a joke in the OF in Cincinnati. He can hit some HRs, pass Sosa on the list and go out in a celebration of his career without the nightly downer that watching him play RF has become.

Sometimes its better to let go than to let the suffering drag on.

redsrule2500
05-15-2008, 06:54 AM
I'm a Reds fan before a Griffey fan.

I LOVED Griffey more than I could ever love a player on another team while he was in Seattle. Obviously him coming to Cincy was a dream come true. However, I do think it's in the best interest of the Reds to get rid of him and bring up Bruce ASAP.

coachw513
05-15-2008, 08:00 AM
Great post...

Head vs. heart, a classic sports mystery...

Of course, if this were the NFL the point would be moot...Griffey AND Dunn would both have been salary cap casualties and Bruce would already be up and batting in the middle of the lineup...that league renders "heart" decisions pointless...aging, high-priced vets have no place in that league...

I will deeply miss Griffey...but I am indeed ready to "miss him"...I truly wish Seattle can bring him back home and allow his career to finish with some glamour, for I fear a "Willie Mays-Mets-type" finish here in Cincy...

membengal
05-15-2008, 08:55 AM
If you are really a Griffey fan, consider the other side. Griffey deserves the chance to go out where he had his glory and to do so in a manner that allows him to play without embarrassing himself on a nightly basis (that means DH). A tour around the AL as a DH for the team where he really does have an historic past is much more fitting than him looking like a joke in the OF in Cincinnati. He can hit some HRs, pass Sosa on the list and go out in a celebration of his career without the nightly downer that watching him play RF has become.

Sometimes its better to let go than to let the suffering drag on.

Yes. That's the point I was trying to make back on page one of the thread. Thanks mth, that captures what I was getting at entirely.

M2
05-15-2008, 09:56 AM
If you are really a Griffey fan, consider the other side. Griffey deserves the chance to go out where he had his glory and to do so in a manner that allows him to play without embarrassing himself on a nightly basis (that means DH). A tour around the AL as a DH for the team where he really does have an historic past is much more fitting than him looking like a joke in the OF in Cincinnati. He can hit some HRs, pass Sosa on the list and go out in a celebration of his career without the nightly downer that watching him play RF has become.

Sometimes its better to let go than to let the suffering drag on.

That's my take too. I like Jr. too much to make him have to live out this maudlin tale.

SirFelixCat
05-15-2008, 10:12 AM
If you are really a Griffey fan, consider the other side. Griffey deserves the chance to go out where he had his glory and to do so in a manner that allows him to play without embarrassing himself on a nightly basis (that means DH). A tour around the AL as a DH for the team where he really does have an historic past is much more fitting than him looking like a joke in the OF in Cincinnati. He can hit some HRs, pass Sosa on the list and go out in a celebration of his career without the nightly downer that watching him play RF has become.

Sometimes its better to let go than to let the suffering drag on.

Great posts fellas.

And I agree with the above. With one caveat. I will truly die a little inside if somehow, someway, he ever ever donned a Cubs uniform. Outside of that, I want to see him get a ring. I truly do.

15fan
05-15-2008, 10:14 AM
I respect the hell out of the guy. Like you said, he's a player I can point to and tell my son, "Be like him." I value that, but I also recognize he's been the wrong fit for this franchise for at least five years. He and the Reds deserve better.

Sounds like the kind of guy who would make a great mentor for one Jay Bruce.

At least for a little while.

M2
05-15-2008, 11:11 AM
Sounds like the kind of guy who would make a great mentor for one Jay Bruce.

At least for a little while.

I sincerely doubt he wants to sit on the bench and mentor.

westofyou
05-15-2008, 06:42 PM
January 7, 1920 Boston Globe – “The Sportsman”

“Sentiment in baseball is a thing of the past. Holding onto players as has been done in Pittsburgh as been the case with Honus Wagner; in Detroit as regards to Ty Cobb and in Washington where Walter Johnson has been idol, are rarities.”

MartyFan
05-15-2008, 08:02 PM
I love Junior...He gets a huge paycheck...He is not the player he was...He needs to go, before or after the 600...the Reds aren't doing anything with it anyway so, move him someplace and put Bruce in RF and keep Ryan Freel as far away from him in the field.

savafan
05-15-2008, 10:31 PM
I'm a Reds fan, a baseball fan, and a Ken Griffey Jr. fan. It's not always easy being all three at once. Junior was my favorite player when he came up in 1989 and I was 12 years old. I always dreamed he'd someday play for my favorite team, which he eventually did, but he wasn't the same player. Sometimes I wonder if karma got the best of him after the way he demanded the trade that brought him here and handcuffed the Mariners saying he'd only play for the Reds.

As far as Cincinnati Reds centerfielders go, Eric Davis was the best I ever saw. Not to slight #44, but I wish it had been different.

*BaseClogger*
05-17-2008, 12:55 AM
Bringing up Junior
by John Brattain
May 07, 2008

Wow—has it been that long?

Ken Griffey Jr.’s contract with the Cincinnati Reds is set to expire at the end of the season. I doubt the team will pick up the option.

I remember covering the trade, when I was associate editor of MLBtalk (now ESPN Insider Baseball), like it was yesterday. It’s hard to believe that “Pokey” Reese held up the trade for awhile. Reese has been out of the bigs since the end of 2004. Other quick memories of that time…

The circus leading up to the trade. Griffey and his agent, Brian Goldberg, made the trade request in November and went so far as to issue a signed statement bidding farewell to Mariners fans. After initial bidders were few, Griffey reversed course and told the Seattle Post-Intelligencer that he never asked for a trade—he just didn't want to sign a contract extension.

-The players received from the Reds: Mike Cameron, Brett Tomko, Antonio Perez and Jake Meyer.

-The dustup over Junior wishing to wear No. 24—Tony Perez’s old number, which was to be retired. Ultimately, he settled on his dad’s old number.

-A lot of discussion surrounding the future of 10/5 rights after Griffey used that provision as a hammer severely limiting the negotiating leverage Pat Gillick could wield, by publicly stating he would only accept a deal to the Reds.

-The Reds barely missing the postseason in 1999. The Griffey deal was thought to be a prelude to “The Big Red Machine 2.0.”

-Barry Larkin and Junior crowing that Griffey would have vetoed any deal with Cincinnati in which the Reds gave up (in Junior’s opinion) too much talent, in order to keep the 1999 team intact as possible.

-Other untouchable Reds prospects of that time including Sean Casey and Scott Williamson.

-A nitwit poster named "Gallagher" who spammed the Cinci.com message board after the trade with tirades about what a mistake the Reds had made in acquiring Griffey. His usual refrain was "WHIFFEY IS NOT YOUR SAVIOR!!"

-The question of whether the Mariners should deal Alex Rodriguez to avoid getting shafted a second time when A-Rod went through free agency. The Mariners felt they could take Rodriguez at his word that Seattle was his “first choice.”

A slow start in 2000 saw Griffey hearing the boo-birds at Riverfront. Nevertheless, he rebounded with a 40-homer season and cracked the century mark in runs and RBI. Unbelievably, his 40 dingers were a bit of a disappointment considering that he averaged 52 HR over the previous four seasons and was viewed for the longest time as the man who would top Roger Maris’ 61 in ’61. The Reds didn’t improve on 1999, finishing 85-77 while his old club made it to the ALCS against the New York Yankees losing in six games.

I’ve long felt that 2000 marked the beginning of the end for Ken Griffey Jr. After years of abuse on the hard Kingdome Astroturf, the Mariners finally had a natural grass field at their new digs. In demanding a trade to the Reds, he sentenced himself to three more years on the ’turf—however, after 2000 he averaged 99 games played per season. It took him until last season for him to reach his first season’s totals in games played since going to Cincy.

He never again topped 100 runs scored or RBI and never reached 40 dingers again—he hit 35 in 2005 and 30 last season. His dreams of resurrecting the Big Red Machine ended up in tatters; the club never topped .500 after his first year while the Mariners would four times top 90 wins narrowly missing a fifth 90 (88) win season in 2007.

It seemed the organization and Griffey’s career came apart in sync—the club went through six managers, four general managers and two ownership groups while Junior made eight trips to the disabled list, missing almost three full seasons worth of play with the Reds. The Reds' slow start has Junior seeing the handwriting on the wall. The Reds will not pick up his $16 million option for 2009 and the team is off to a rough start despite some impressive young talent on the roster and in the system.

He again wields the 10/5 hammer, but the leverage is gone. Once home run No. 600 has been celebrated, he will find himself in the situation Barry Bonds found himself in last season—with a struggling team that has nothing else to gain from his continued employment. Back in 2000, he was considered the best player in the game (or one of them)—heir apparent to Hank Aaron, a Gold Glove center fielder coming off seasons of 49, 56, 56 and 48 HR. Now he’s a sub-par defender coming off an injury-plagued decade batting a mere .229/.308/.373.

Part of him may not realize this, however. In a USA Today article he’s quoted as saying, "My situation is different only because I can tell them where I want to go. I want to be in position to win a championship. I'm not strong-arming anybody, but that's the way it is."

While it’s true he can tell them where he wishes to go, they’re under no obligation to send him there. In 2000, it was the player who would not sign a contract extension with his old club. Now it’s the team stating that the player will not be staying. The Mariners hoped to salvage something from Griffey’s departure, whereas the Reds will gain something from his leaving—saving $16 million by not picking up the option.

Griffey does enjoy 10/5 rights, but any trade he vetoes may be his only opportunity to land on a contender (although I think the Reds are far from out of it this year). Unlike 2000, he cannot write his own ticket out of town. He needs the Reds and a second team to change his circumstances, so the odds of him strong-arming anyone are effectively nil. The Reds front office that has done a masterful job in rebuilding the farm system is likely perfectly willing to take the draft picks should a trade to the Reds' liking not materialize.

Sadly, in the USA Today article, Griffey is still trying to spin the events of 2000, making it seem that he had little choice but to leave the Pacific Northwest. Of course, that’s bogus since all he had to do was sign the proffered contract extension. "I wouldn't change anything, I had to leave Seattle when I did. I just had to. They know the real reason why I left." He left because he wished to go—no more and no less than that. At his introductory press conference as a Red he said “Well, I’m home.” Those are not the words of a man with little recourse. Those are the words of man who used every power at his disposal to engineer a trade to the team for which he wished to play.

When he says he wouldn’t change anything—well, I don’t believe he didn’t look back at some of those 90-plus win Mariners teams and wonder if they could’ve gone all the way had he been just a little more mature and a little less impetuous. A-Rod said the same thing about Texas while almost screaming, “I’m not normally a praying man but if you can hear me up there—save me, Scott Boras!!!”

Ah, well.

Who would have thought in 2000-2001 that come 2008 Ken Griffey Jr., Alex Rodriguez and the Seattle Mariners would still be looking for their first World Series?

But I digress.

I hope Griffey can have a happily ever after. Perhaps he can have the homecoming he craved back in 2000. The future Hall of Famer thought he was going home then when in reality he was returning to his father’s home—Seattle was the home of Ken Griffey Junior. As Mariners President Chuck Armstrong stated, "I think everybody in Seattle would like to see him retire in a Mariners uniform, he was born a Mariner. And I'd like to see him finish up as a Mariner ... but he always will have a special place in my heart, and everyone here in Seattle."

I hope he makes it back to Seattle. Maybe he’ll finally get his ring the way Dave Winfield did back in 1992—driving in the winning runs in the final game of the Fall Classic. However, I’ll always look back at the career of Ken Griffey Jr. with disappointment. What if he hadn’t decided to subject his legs to the hard Astroturf of Riverfront Stadium (I’m not calling it by that other name!) and decided to stay on the soft grass of Safeco Field? It will go down as another sad “coulda/woulda/shoulda” that defines the sport.

Go home, Junior.

THT

WVRedsFan
05-17-2008, 01:04 AM
I feel like I'm talking to the wall, but here goes. From all I can read and surmise, Seattle doesn't want him, doesn't have a use for him, and isn't entertaining taking him. That chapter should be closed, and yet writer after writer (this one doesn't have one for some reason) continues to believe that Junior is going "home" to Seattle. I don't expect that. In fact, I don't think he'll be anywhere but Cincinnati for the forseeable future.

*BaseClogger*
05-17-2008, 01:21 AM
I feel like I'm talking to the wall, but here goes. From all I can read and surmise, Seattle doesn't want him, doesn't have a use for him, and isn't entertaining taking him. That chapter should be closed, and yet writer after writer (this one doesn't have one for some reason) continues to believe that Junior is going "home" to Seattle. I don't expect that. In fact, I don't think he'll be anywhere but Cincinnati for the forseeable future.

Fixed :)

Do any of the old-timers remember that poster from the cinci.com message board?

WVRedsFan
05-17-2008, 01:51 AM
Fixed :)

Do any of the old-timers remember that poster from the cinci.com message board?


I went through therapy for that and have no memory of cinci.com. What is this phenomonon you speak of... Is it a self-help board???:)

OnBaseMachine
05-17-2008, 01:57 AM
I feel like I'm talking to the wall, but here goes. From all I can read and surmise, Seattle doesn't want him, doesn't have a use for him, and isn't entertaining taking him. That chapter should be closed, and yet writer after writer (this one doesn't have one for some reason) continues to believe that Junior is going "home" to Seattle. I don't expect that. In fact, I don't think he'll be anywhere but Cincinnati for the forseeable future.

The Mariners have been scouting Griffey according to Hal McCoy. From what I can tell, they do want him. Their attendance has been down lately and think acquiring Griff would sell more tickets...

cincrazy
05-17-2008, 04:08 AM
The Mariners have been scouting Griffey according to Hal McCoy. From what I can tell, they do want him. Their attendance has been down lately and think acquiring Griff would sell more tickets...

Jon Heyman of si.com, and I believe Buster Olney of ESPN, have both stated that the Mariners interest in Griffey is lukewarm at best. You have to figure, they're even more out of the race than we are, and what they've seen so far from him can't be all that impressive.

I'm not saying a deal won't happen, but I think it's far from a foregone conclusion.

Spring~Fields
05-17-2008, 04:45 AM
Fixed :)

Do any of the old-timers remember that poster from the cinci.com message board?

He was so unremarkable that he became unforgettable. I think that he was voted most likely to be consumed by one of his many candles in his shrine to Junior.

coachw513
05-17-2008, 01:04 PM
I know Jay Bruce is the future of the Reds. I've always been ok with "the future". I wanted EE up a year earlier than he arrived. Same with Votto. I'm ready for Bailey and Thompson in the rotation to toe the rubber alongside Cueto and Volquez.

I'm ready for Jay Bruce. So why can't I let go of Griffey?

In another thread M2 stated the following:



An afterthought? Really? The greatest CF of my and arguably any generation an afterthought? Have we really reached that point that the trophy matters so much more that we can cast aside players of his stature? I rooted for the Reds not because they were from Cincinnati (I lived in Arizona when I "discovered" baseball and the Reds. I moved to Cincinnati when I was 11) But because of the players. I had two favorites: Morgan and Concepcion. Mom liked Rose, Grandma, Bench. I followed those players regardless of the uniform they wore.

Yes, I know his range is gone. He's a pale shadow of his former greatness. But let's examine that word, "greatness" for a moment. Is there any Reds player in the last decade that was truly great? Maybe Barry Larkin. But as good as he was, Larkin was not quite elite.

Griffey was elite. And I am selfish. I want to see him win. It killed me every time he got hurt. I devoured every word written about his rehab. None of us will probably ever go through anything like what Jr. endured. He came back when lesser men would have quit. And through all that he's never been linked to any controversy or scandal. No drugs. No women. No cheating. He's a role model in every sense of the word, and better yet, he KNOWS he's a role model. For all the feel good puff pieces about Josh Hamilton's amazing comeback from drugs, Griffey's return was no less amazing.

I'm about 3 years older than Griffey. I've heard or read about him my entire adult life, and like a lot of you was in High School in Cincinnati about the same time he was. He should be the face of Cincinnati, not Rose. He should be the ideal that our kids aspire to, not a degenerate gambler.

But now Cincinnati has drafted and developed Jay Bruce. He's been compared to Griffey by a guy that managed both of them at about the same age. He has nothing left to prove in AAA, as he's destroying that league. He needs to be in Cincinnati helping a good young nucleus on the road to the World Series.

My head knows this.

My heart wants to see Griffey and the sweetest swing God created, stay a Red forever.

So please forgive me if I have trouble reading about "dumping" Griffey. I'm sure there were discussions like this in the late 60's about Mays too. It's funny how we discard our baseball heroes.

I'm just not ready to let this one go just yet.

An incredibly passionate post...thank you...

It's just sad...how am I supposed to explain to my 10 year old daughter about the defensive metrics (and my eyesight) which rank KGJ as one of, if not the worst RF in the game???...that he is being miscast as the #3 hitter in a lineup desperate for reconstruction??...she cried last year when she was confronted with the reality Griffey might have been traded (when talk got so heavy)...

You know, actually how do I explain all of this to myself??...not to mention reminding myself that my angst over this franchise being so bad really isn't the fault of Griffey or for that matter Dunn (different thread for sure, but the word "pitching" seems relevant)...

The graceful exit of the aging superstar is maybe the hardest thing of all to watch in sports...as much as I'm REALLY looking forward to watching the Jay Bruce era begin, I find nothing fun, exciting or anticipatory about the end of KGJ's time in Cincy...

savafan
05-17-2008, 08:45 PM
It's been a disappointment here ever since 2000, that much we can all agree on. You really can't just blame that on any one person though. No one could have forseen the multitude of injuries that Griffey endured. I don't think anyone expected that Lindner would stop at acquiring Griffey, and not attempt to build a strong team around him upon his arrival here. There was John Allen's handling of the Barry Larkin situation, the firesale, Jim Bowden, Dan O'Brien, Wayne Krivsky, Bob Boone...

You could go so far as to say that things have been bad ever since Piniella left town, although it's unfair to blame Perez for getting fired after a 20-24 record. We all came away from 1990 with sparkles in our eyes expecting a dynasty, but what we actually ended up with was continual reciprocity.

RedsBaron
05-17-2008, 09:12 PM
Fixed :)

Do any of the old-timers remember that poster from the cinci.com message board?

Impossible to forget.
I understand the emotions some people have about Junior, and I truly wish him well.......but the Reds and Junior need to part ways, now. He shouldn't be batting third. He really shouldn't even be in the starting lineup.

mth123
05-17-2008, 09:14 PM
Impossible to forget.
I understand the emotions some people have about Junior, and I truly wish him well.......but the Reds and Junior need to part ways, now. He shouldn't be batting third. He really shouldn't even be in the starting lineup.

If BCast is serious about the "losing stops" mantra, the team will scrap the 600 HR martketing plan, deal JR for salary relief and whatever else, hand Bruce RF and use the cash to sign Freddy Garcia for a mid-summer boost.

coachw513
05-17-2008, 09:15 PM
There was John Allen's handling of the Barry Larkin situation.

Speaking of which, are the Reds EVER going to make this situation right??...up for the HOF next year and the Reds (unless I simply don't know about something) still have yet to clean this mess up...

GAC
05-18-2008, 04:39 PM
I actually remember going to games and painfully watching Willie "a shadow of himself" Mays play.

It happens to the best of them sooner or later.

And it's not like these guys haven't greatly benefitted from the game and once gone are going to be seen standing in the unemployment line or on some street corner somewhere.

If I don't do my job in accordance with the company's expectations they wouldn't think twice in firing me or "forcing me out to pasture". ;)

Yet it's different for sports icons who show they no longer can perform?

RedlegJake
05-18-2008, 06:05 PM
I really love Junior as a player and an icon and for the way he has done things but it's time. It is that simple really. When I watch him now I see the reflexes have slowed, I see guys throwing strikes by him that he misses or fouls off that in years past he would have parked. His swing is a tick behind, he can no longer run well, his grace in the field has been replaced by an OLD gait and his arm is shot. He gets what he manages to get now by entrained skills left over from a million reps, and from knowledge of the game in spite of his fading physical skills. It is sad to see, it is time to move on to his last hurrah, hopefully where he can win before time runs out on him. It's time for the Reds to bring in the kid - the ever present kid of baseball - the new chosen one, to revitalize the team, and as it has always been through baseball's long history, to replace yesteryear's hero with tomorrow's.