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View Full Version : Does O'Brien Deserve Any Credit?



tommycash
05-14-2008, 09:57 PM
Does the man that drafted Jay Bruce and signed Undrafted FA Johnny Cueto (among some other things) get any credit for the work he did to revamp our minor leagues after years of abuse from Jim Bowden. I don't think he should still be GM, but after looking back at his drafting ability, he deserves some credit.

redsfanmia
05-14-2008, 10:29 PM
Obie was just over matched as a GM he got the job because he worked cheap and was a Reds fan growing up but he is a quality baseball man and is a great talent evaluator.

Jadam
05-14-2008, 10:32 PM
Yes, yes he does

Grande Donkey
05-14-2008, 10:33 PM
He really didn't have much to do with it. That is the scouting directors job not the GMs.

Rounding Third
05-14-2008, 11:19 PM
Does the man that drafted Jay Bruce and signed Undrafted FA Johnny Cueto (among some other things) get any credit for the work he did to revamp our minor leagues after years of abuse from Jim Bowden. I don't think he should still be GM, but after looking back at his drafting ability, he deserves some credit.


Johnny Cueto's credit goes to the Johnny Almarez

Lockdwn11
05-15-2008, 12:19 AM
He really didn't have much to do with it. That is the scouting directors job not the GMs.

Bingo!

Kingspoint
05-15-2008, 05:38 AM
Absolutely!

The REDS' Minor League system was graded to be one of the 5 worst for at least 5 years in a row before he got here, and 14 months after he left it was ranked 4th best.

tommycash
05-15-2008, 09:13 AM
I think some credit has to go to the man in charge.

ChatterRed
05-15-2008, 09:27 AM
Too much credit and too much blame usually goes to the man in charge. Having quality people under you is what makes the boss looks good.

OesterPoster
05-15-2008, 09:40 AM
If you want to give him credit for getting lucky on a few drafts, that's fine. Bruce was an easy pick at the time, thanks to the awesome scouting work by the late Brian Wilson.

I refuse to give O'Brien any credit, simply because he had some of the dumbest organizational rules I've ever seen, like the "take a strike before you swing", and his tandem-pitcher ideas.

If you haven't seen the article on Brian Wilson from a few years ago, it's worth reading again.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-wilson070706&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

redlegs2370
05-15-2008, 09:40 AM
Too much credit and too much blame usually goes to the man in charge. Having quality people under you is what makes the boss looks good.

I agree you have to great people working underneath you but in any great organization it starts with a vision. He has the vision, usually the person who is at the top. Then it is up to the leader to motivate their employees to carry out that vision. Bill Gates & Henry Ford had outstanding visions but they couldn't do it by themselves, but without their vision how quickly would the automobile industry and PC industry have developed? My guess not as quick as it did.

So to answer Tommycash's question, yes I think Dan O'brien deserves credit for the way our minor league system has developed. As Kingspoint pointed out when Dan O took over the Reds minor league system was a complete joke now it is rated 4th best. I would think all of us would be in agreement you don't turn around a minor league system overnight, it is not the NFL.

UK Reds Fan
05-15-2008, 09:48 AM
Bottomline.

OBrien netted the Reds:
Cueto, Bruce, Homer, Votto (I think..maybe he was a Bowden leftover), Travis Wood.

Yes that is a big part of our future and credit for it occuring under his regime is warranted. If Stubbs, Frazier, Waring, Hamilton for Volquez, etc..work out, we'd be giving Krivsky credit, why not the same for the past GM as well.

ChatterRed
05-15-2008, 09:49 AM
Well, I do think DanO and Wayne Krivsky both had the right idea in building this franchise from the ground up and building a solid farm system. And to that, it takes patience. Jim Bowden was a win now guy who constantly traded away the farm system and usually for questionable pieces. Castellini appears to be a win now owner, and that can be dangerous when trying to develop a farm system.

Orodle
05-15-2008, 09:53 AM
No, O'Brien was horrible. Drafting ability in baseball is largely due to luck and what your scouts are telling you.

redlegs2370
05-15-2008, 10:16 AM
No, O'Brien was horrible. Drafting ability in baseball is largely due to luck and what your scouts are telling you.

To me luck is when preparation meets opportunity. Sure some years there are going to be better players available to draft than other years but the preparation that goes into player evaluation is much more than luck.

Orenda
05-15-2008, 11:04 AM
If you want to give him credit for getting lucky on a few drafts, that's fine. Bruce was an easy pick at the time, thanks to the awesome scouting work by the late Brian Wilson.

I refuse to give O'Brien any credit, simply because he had some of the dumbest organizational rules I've ever seen, like the "take a strike before you swing", and his tandem-pitcher ideas.

If you haven't seen the article on Brian Wilson from a few years ago, it's worth reading again.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-wilson070706&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

I don't know to me that rule at least meant he was able to recognize a concerning trend of players being undisciplined at the plate. And it was his attempt to fix what he considered a problem. And I believe the rule was only applied to hitters in A ball and below. I once read an article where Votto was talking about how tough it was to have to hit behind in a count when you were facing a guy like Verlander and he knows your taking the first pitch. But when I watch the way he seems unrattled in the batting box and how he prepares himself to hit before every pitch, I wonder if that rule hasn't helped him more than we realize. I think O'Brien did a fine job with player development, but he was horrendous handling a major league roster.

mlbfan30
05-15-2008, 02:43 PM
I don't know to me that rule at least meant he was able to recognize a concerning trend of players being undisciplined at the plate. And it was his attempt to fix what he considered a problem. And I believe the rule was only applied to hitters in A ball and below. I once read an article where Votto was talking about how tough it was to have to hit behind in a count when you were facing a guy like Verlander and he knows your taking the first pitch. But when I watch the way he seems unrattled in the batting box and how he prepares himself to hit before every pitch, I wonder if that rule hasn't helped him more than we realize. I think O'Brien did a fine job with player development, but he was horrendous handling a major league roster.

That's a good point.

It's possible players like Votto appeared to be "struggling" because they were put into bad situations to succeed (taking 1st pitch). However by doing this it's possible the hitters ended up benefiting in the end by being able to recognize pitches better, and also becoming more comfortable hitting in pitchers counts.

The tandem thing might sound stupid, but you need to remember the situation. We had Howington, Gruler, Pauley, etc all getting arm injuries. Maybe it was just bad luck, or maybe it was the coaching. Either way it had to stop, and think about all the pitching injuries since that rule was made. Close to zero big name or even average pitching prospects have been hurt since. Something changed and it started with O'Brien.

The GM might not scout the players or know in detail about every player, but he's the guy in charge. He's the one that employs the scouts and directors and all that stuff. Part of being a good GM is surrounding yourself with strong people around you and listening to them. Some might have been leftover from Bowden, but he was able to weed out the bad and bring out his own. It's ultimately up to the GM for the final decision on draft picks, even if someone else does all the work.

To suggest O'Brien deserves no credit is ridiculous. He basically changed the mindset of the entire organization from a player development perspective, and now we're starting to see the results.

ChatterRed
05-15-2008, 02:44 PM
So......you're crediting DanO with Vott-O's calmness at the plate with atleast one strike?

Cool. I guess DanO gets some credit.