Jr trying to save his legs

[flyer85]

I have noticed that Jr really seems to be taking it easy in chasing flyballs and running the bases this season. Personally I think it is an attempt to save the legs because he knows if he pushes it the injury is only a matter of time. He is not really slow, his problem is that he only rarely goes full speed because of the realization that sooner or later the legs are going to let him down.


Rate
A way to look at the fielder's rate of production, equal to 100 plus the number of runs above or below average this fielder is per 100 games. A player with a rate of 110 is 10 runs above average per 100 games, a player with an 87 is 13 runs below average per 100 games, etc.

His rate(100=avg) defensive stat is WAY down this year.He is on pace for an FRAA in the range of -25.

Last year in RF his Rate was 97, this year it has fallen to 83(as a comparison Dunn was 86 last year and is 92 this year).

The bad part for the Reds it that it has reached the point where the longer Bruce stays down in AAA the more it hampers the chances of the major league winning.

[WVRedsFan]

I have noticed that Jr really seems to be taking it easy in chasing flyballs and running the bases this season. Personally I think it is an attempt to save the legs because he knows if he pushes it the injury is only a matter of time. He is not really slow, his problem is that he only rarely goes full speed because of the realization that sooner or later the legs are going to let him down.



His rate(100=avg) defensive stat is WAY down this year.He is on pace for an FRAA in the range of -25.

Last year in RF his Rate was 97, this year it has fallen to 83(as a comparison Dunn was 86 last year and is 92 this year).

The bad part for the Reds it that it has reached the point where the longer Bruce stays down in AAA the more it hampers the chances of the major league winning.

No doubt this is happening, but can you honestly say that KGJ's saving his legs is the reason why this club is losing? I think I saw a total bullpen collapse tonight which contributed to the loss, not KGJ's range in right field.

[Unassisted]

Considering that some of the tendons in those legs are attached to the bone with screws, it's hard to fault Junior too much for holding back, if indeed he is. Maybe Father Time is catching up to him and he really is running full speed more than we realize?

[flyer85]

but can you honestly say that KGJ's saving his legs is the reason why this club is losing? Didn't say that.

Simply stated that the best chance for the Reds winning is having Jay Bruce in the major league OF.

[Highlifeman21]

I think KGJ is saving his legs for his next team.

[REDREAD]

I think KGJ is saving his legs for his next team.

If I had to bet, if the Reds don't pick up Jr's option, he's probably going to retire. Maybe the Mariners can talk him into playing another year or two, but I doubt it will be worth it for Jr to play. He's not playing for all the records and personal glory.

Jr really can't win. I remember years ago when people were begging Jr to take it easier .. saying there was no sense risking injury by going all out in the OF..

Maybe Jr's legs are hurting and he's trying to play through it instead of going on the DL..

[osuceltic]

Jr really can't win. I remember years ago when people were begging Jr to take it easier .. saying there was no sense risking injury by going all out in the OF..
No one who has ever played sports begged him to take it easier. If injuries happen while you're playing hard, that's just the way it goes.


Maybe Jr's legs are hurting and he's trying to play through it instead of going on the DL..
If that's the case, I wish he'd stop doing us any favors.

[Cooper]

His gait has changed. It has a side to side element to it...and he appears to be running more up right. He looks like he's favoring an injury. I am not saying he is -it just looks like he is.

[corkedbat]

If he wants to save his legs, DHing is the ticket.

[WebScorpion]

No doubt this is happening, but can you honestly say that KGJ's saving his legs is the reason why this club is losing? I think I saw a total bullpen collapse tonight which contributed to the loss, not KGJ's range in right field. What loss? The Reds haven't lost since Sunday... I do agree that KGJ is not the reason the Reds are below .500 at this point. He is a contributing factor, but he's not the reason.

[redsrule2500]

Griffey could DH in Seattle then, if that's what he's worried about.

Sit down most of the game.

[mth123]

No doubt this is happening, but can you honestly say that KGJ's saving his legs is the reason why this club is losing? I think I saw a total bullpen collapse tonight which contributed to the loss, not KGJ's range in right field.

I think your ignoring how much his poor defense contributes to that. The extra hits and extra baserunners tax the pen. More guys warming up, more guys pitching with men on base. Its worse for the pen than the starters because they are up and down all the time every day due to the extra runners on. While the starters end up pitching less deep into games, their pitch counts are relatively consistent from start to start so the cumlative effect isn't as much (until they have to be left out there to save the pen), but the pen is asked to get extra outs and as a result use more guys daily. Its extremely taxing. Its not just Griffey who has defensive issues, but he is by far the worst of the bunch.

A perfect example is Cordero's outing on Wednesday. He gave up some runs and allowed the game to be tied. You will never convince me that those results weren't born in the fiasco of the dropped fly ball on Monday. That dropped ball significantly extended Cordero's outing on Monday which was followed by another outing on Tuesday. Normally three days in a row is not a huge problem for a good closer who is doing his thing, but the extended outing on Monday left him with little in the tank for Wednesday.

That scenario was more visible because of the dropped fly. What is less visible is that this plays out daily with balls falling in for singles that appear routine on TV. Those are really balls that should be outs but become hits with Griffey's "pull up after two steps" routine. The guy plays deeper than normal and it allows him to get back ok on balls hit to the warning track, but the combination of playing deeper and the limited ground covered going in on balls in front of him leaves a huge portion of the field as free base hit territory for the opposition. I honestly have never seen such a concession defensively in all my years of watching. There have been a number of bad OF defenders that I've seen over the years including Alex Johnson, Kal Daniels, Richie Scheinblum and of course Adam Dunn. None are close to the bad that we've seen from Griffey over the last 4 or 5 years. This year is far worse than even last year. Griffey may have better technique and look better, but when it comes to turning fly balls that should be caught into actual outs, those guys do/did a better job.

If he needs to save his legs, it needs to be as a power LH bat off the bench who mentors the new phenom who takes his place. Otherwise, he needs to agree to a deal to an AL team that will allow him to DH. Its sad, but those are really the only roles remaining that he can credibly play at the major league level. I seriously doubt that any other team would consider him as an every day player who has to play defense.

Don't get me wrong, I've been saying since before spring that this pen is highly suspect, but changing the pitchers probably won't make this a good pen until something is done about the defense. They can probably get some guys who can be less bad, but it won't ever be good with this defense because of the cumulative wear down factor and right now and the biggest hole is in RF.

[GAC]

The reason Jr suffered those injuries in the first place was from playing hard, giving it his all.

I still remember the first injury to his hammy when he was storming around 3B trying to score. Or how about that play in CF when he came down on the shoulder?

I still shudder when I think of those situations.

Sure the guy is holding back somewhat now. He can't get through an airport metal detector now. He has more metal in him then most new cars. ;)

[mth123]

The reason Jr suffered those injuries in the first place was from playing hard, giving it his all.

I still remember the first injury to his hammy when he was storming around 3B trying to score. Or how about that play in CF when he came down on the shoulder?

I still shudder when I think of those situations.

Sure the guy is holding back somewhat now. He can't get through an airport metal detector now. He has more metal in him then most new cars. ;)

Nobody disputes that. It doesn't change the fact that he's killing the team now.

[GAC]

Nobody disputes that. It doesn't change the fact that he's killing the team now.

Absolutely true. He is living validation of Newton's three physical laws of motion, and that to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. ;)

But it was the Reds who signed him to that long term contract with all it's stipulations and deferred monies till 2024. That is not Jr's fault.

All they can do is suck it up and wait till season's end, give him his 4 mil, and say Adios.

That is the only consolation we have at this point IMHO. They are not going to simply release the guy. Regardless of his current performance, you are talking Ken Griffey Jr here. And overall, with the fan base, it probably wouldn't look good on this organization if they were to do so.

I guarantee you that Dusty would raise a huge fuss over it if it was even considered.

[mth123]

Absolutely true. He is living validation of Newton's three physical laws of motion, and that to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. ;)

But it was the Reds who signed him to that long term contract with all it's stipulations and deferred monies till 2024. That is not Jr's fault.

All they can do is suck it up and wait till season's end, give him his 4 mil, and say Adios.

That is the only consolation we have at this point IMHO. They are not going to simply release the guy. Regardless of his current performance, you are talking Ken Griffey Jr here. And overall, with the fan base, it probably wouldn't look good on this organization if they were to do so.

I guarantee you that Dusty would raise a huge fuss over it if it was even considered.

None of that factors into whether he should be in RF every day. Time to sit.

[GAC]

None of that factors into whether he should be in RF every day. Time to sit.

Ain't gonna happen with Dusty at the helm, and the guy chasing 600.

Also - it's hard to trade or shine a guy up if you've just benched him due to declining performance affected by age and injuries.

It's like having a junk car sitting in your side yard gathering even more rust and decay. :p:

[cincrazy]

Easier said than done my friend. It's a business, and he's a Hall of Famer. They're not going to simply sit him. If they deem he's not capable of doing the job, they should part ways with him the way the Jays did with Frank Thomas. But sitting him would embarrass him and the franchise to a certain extent, and I think it'd cause way more harm than good.


None of that factors into whether he should be in RF every day. Time to sit.

[Jpup]

He's certainly reaching the point, if he doesn't pick it up soon, of going to the bench. I don't know if the other guys can't carry him like they have been.

[Will M]

Jr trying to save his legs - kinda like closing the barn door once the cows have already gotten out.

[Always Red]

Jr trying to save his legs - kinda like closing the barn door once the cows have already gotten out.

True.

I don't think Jr is trying to save his legs, as much as he just doesn't have any legs anymore. His wheels are gone, through a combo job of age and injury, which makes him a defensive liability, of course.

But more alarming is his sudden drop in bat speed since last summer; pedestrian pitchers are throwing 89-90 mph fastballs right by him this year. Jr used to eat those guys for lunch everyday. He used to make the game look so easy, so effortless. Now, he makes it appear that he is not putting any effort into it. I am not accusing him of loafing at all- he is just approaching the game the same way he always has in the past, with much less results.

It's sad to see Jr like this; he's a shadow of his former self. He's not going to be benched, and he's not going to up and retire and walk away from the rest of his contract. The best thing would be for him to start hitting, and to do that, he has to play. If he hits, then he is more valuable to everyone, and the Reds can either keep him or trade him to a team that will actually be able to use him. If he doesn't hit, then he stays, the Reds buy out the $4 million option during the offseason, and Bruce plays RF next year.

[mth123]

Easier said than done my friend. It's a business, and he's a Hall of Famer. They're not going to simply sit him. If they deem he's not capable of doing the job, they should part ways with him the way the Jays did with Frank Thomas. But sitting him would embarrass him and the franchise to a certain extent, and I think it'd cause way more harm than good.

The message is its time to win. Playing JR is contradictory to the stated goal. Which is it Mr. Castellini? A major league team can't have such a substandard defender in RF and expect to be taken seriously. It was OK while languishing at 8 games below .500, JR's farewell tour was about the only point to the season, but now this team has put itself back in position. Time to get serious and IMO playing JR in RF is not a serious attempt to win.

[WVPacman]

Nobody disputes that. It doesn't change the fact that he's killing the team now.

He is difiniently hurting the team with his glove and EXSPECIALLY his bat since he has gotten close to the 600 hrs.Dusty needs to set him out the next game maybe two.