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Reds1
05-17-2008, 02:04 AM
49 RBIs in 43 games. Wow! IF Volquez wasn't doing so well they'd be calling for Krivskey's head - oh. wait!!! Didn't matter! :)

Unbelieveable.

Could be one of the most amazing trade ever!

toledodan
05-17-2008, 02:22 AM
while i'm happy we have volquez, people outside of redsland have to wonder why we traded hamilton. 49 RBIs and it only mid may! i hope volquez continues to pitch as well as he has or people may start turning on him quick.

RedlegJake
05-17-2008, 02:45 AM
I'm really happy for Josh and happy the Reds have Volquez. I don't think I've sen a trade where both players were so dominant for their new teams. Volquez ties the record for consecutive 1 ER or less starts and Hammy knocking in about everything Texas puts on the bases.

Spring~Fields
05-17-2008, 04:30 AM
49 RBIs in 43 games. Wow! IF Volquez wasn't doing so well they'd be calling for Krivskey's head - oh. wait!!! Didn't matter! :)

Unbelieveable.

Could be one of the most amazing trade ever!

I love it that he is having a great season. I can't wait to see the total performance for the year. The guy is an interesting story.

HumnHilghtFreel
05-17-2008, 04:36 AM
I have Hamilton AND Volquez on my fantasy team:thumbup:

As much as I'd love to be seeing him do this in GABP, I like watching Volquez mow down hitters just as much. In a few years this could be a really awesome trade to look back on.

LoganBuck
05-17-2008, 08:12 AM
They might face each other in the first inning of the All Star game at this rate.

Always Red
05-17-2008, 08:47 AM
Hamilton is amazing; go watch the clips of his great night on mlb.com- his swing right now is so pure- baseball poetry.

I'll always be a fan of Hammy's, but the Reds still need MORE PITCHING!!

Reds1
05-17-2008, 09:57 AM
I have Hamilton AND Volquez on my fantasy team:thumbup:

As much as I'd love to be seeing him do this in GABP, I like watching Volquez mow down hitters just as much. In a few years this could be a really awesome trade to look back on.

I picked up both in late rounds - voulquez in last round so I'm right with you.
I can't help think boy could we have traded Griffey, Free, Hopper or package of other guys and kept both. :). It's nice to see both do so well. If both continue this for the year and go on to be studs this will be one of the most interesting deal EVER. Fun to watch though.

Far East
05-17-2008, 10:22 AM
Before Hamilton packed his suitcase to head to Texas, he should have borrowed one of Brandon's old "The Franchise" T-shirts.;)

corkedbat
05-17-2008, 10:53 AM
while i'm happy we have volquez, people outside of redsland have to wonder why we traded hamilton. 49 RBIs and it only mid may! i hope volquez continues to pitch as well as he has or people may start turning on him quick.

I won't turn on them. The Reds needed pitching and they got it. I supported the deal and will live with it. I had no doubts about Josh;s potential, It will be interesting to see if he stays off the DL.

PuffyPig
05-17-2008, 11:16 AM
Last year Hamilton had a .922 OPS for us.

Before last nights game, Hamilton had a .886 OPS for Texas, but he raised it 80 points tp .966.

He really isn't hitting much better this year than last, but is staying healthy and getting lots of playing time.

His OPS with runners on base is .931, with runners in scoring position is .929.

So, his RBI's are really a function of the hitters hitting around him getting on base, which is generally the case.

He's having a great season, but so is Volquez.

Texas came calling for Hamilton, it's not like they came looking to move Volquez.

edabbs44
05-17-2008, 11:25 AM
For those who like stuff like this...Josh's home/road splits are slightly outrageous:

Home: .414/.747/1.161
Away: .320/.447/.767

Though he is having a ridiculous year, his numbers probably wouldn't be the same in Cincy.

WMR
05-17-2008, 11:26 AM
For those who like stuff like this...Josh's home/road splits are slightly outrageous:

Home: .414/.747/1.161
Away: .320/.447/.767

Though he is having a ridiculous year, his numbers probably wouldn't be the same in Cincy.

The Ballpark at Arlington projects that much differently as an offensive haven than GABP?

VR
05-17-2008, 11:33 AM
Texas came calling for Hamilton, it's not like they came looking to move Volquez.

I didn't hear who started the discussions....was that in the Enquirer?

men on/ 2 outs...he's OPS'ing 1.267 w/ 20 ribeyes in 38 ab's

He's also OPSing .902 vs. lefties

(yahoo has his OPS w/ runners on at 1.022?)

edabbs44
05-17-2008, 11:58 AM
The Ballpark at Arlington projects that much differently as an offensive haven than GABP?

Texas home/road OPS splits:

2008: .839/.742
2007: .792/.717
2006: .803/.765
2005: .850/.747

Cincy home/road OPS splits:

2008: .776/.737
2007: .793/.751
2006: .812/.726
2005: .816/.755

Take it for what it's worth, but obviously Hamilton has mashed at home and is less than stellar on the road this year.

MartyFan
05-17-2008, 12:03 PM
Last year Hamilton had a .922 OPS for us.

Before last nights game, Hamilton had a .886 OPS for Texas, but he raised it 80 points tp .966.

He really isn't hitting much better this year than last, but is staying healthy and getting lots of playing time.

His OPS with runners on base is .931, with runners in scoring position is .929.

So, his RBI's are really a function of the hitters hitting around him getting on base, which is generally the case.

He's having a great season, but so is Volquez.

Texas came calling for Hamilton, it's not like they came looking to move Volquez.

That is the key to the return for both the Reds and the Rangers on this deal.

I would still make the deal 24/7/365 because IMHO Josh can't physically keep performing at this level or at all for an extended period of time.

It will be interesting to see how the NL adjusts to Volquez the second time around and then how he adjusts to that.

Still a great trade for both teams and don't forget we got another pretty good arm out of the deal that is working through the minors.

THANK YOU SPECIAL K!

Deepred05
05-17-2008, 12:09 PM
That is the key to the return for both the Reds and the Rangers on this deal.

I would still make the deal 24/7/365 because IMHO Josh can't physically keep performing at this level or at all for an extended period of time.

It will be interesting to see how the NL adjusts to Volquez the second time around and then how he adjusts to that.

Still a great trade for both teams and don't forget we got another pretty good arm out of the deal that is working through the minors.

THANK YOU SPECIAL K!
Refresh my memory, who was the other arm we got in that deal?

BCubb2003
05-17-2008, 12:17 PM
Refresh my memory, who was the other arm we got in that deal?

Danny Herrera?

coachw513
05-17-2008, 12:46 PM
It's still early, but is there a comparable trade that worked out so well for BOTH parties in recent history???...guess I won't consider that Robby to the O's trade, Foster from the Giants or Ruth from the BoSox :D

westofyou
05-17-2008, 12:56 PM
Rangers are last in MLB in runs allowed at 243 or 5.5 a game or about 872 for the season


RUNS YEAR R
1 Rangers 2000 974 .438 winning %
2 Rangers 2003 969 .438 winning %
3 Rangers 2001 968 .451 winning %
4 Rangers 2002 882 .444 winning %
5 Rangers 1998 875 .541 winning %

872 would be 6th worst in franchise history, though they are on pace to score 816 runs that would be just the 15th best in franchise history.

So despite Hamilton and his torrid production, this is a team that needs pitching.

Sounds familiar eh?

Caseyfan21
05-17-2008, 01:41 PM
It's still early, but is there a comparable trade that worked out so well for BOTH parties in recent history???...guess I won't consider that Robby to the O's trade, Foster from the Giants or Ruth from the BoSox :D

The Josh Beckett/Hanley Ramirez deal is looking good right now for both teams...probably even better for the Marlins if you give it another 5-10 years.

Spring~Fields
05-17-2008, 02:03 PM
For those who like stuff like this...Josh's home/road splits are slightly outrageous:

Home: .414/.747/1.161
Away: .320/.447/.767

Though he is having a ridiculous year, his numbers probably wouldn't be the same in Cincy.


There is some precedence to support that with the current Reds, as he could have seen limited playing time and rode the bench more often than not under current management.

1. Hamilton probably would not have had people getting on base in front of him with the Reds.

A. Hamilton has some history of leg problems, or health issues.

B. Hamilton needs some development time at the plate and in the field due to his lack of playing experience at the big league level and long layoff to improve his plate discipline and bat control.

C. Hamilton is a left handed bat that Baker has indicated is tough when it comes to making out a lineup.

D. Patterson is a better option in fielding centerfield making him the leadoff hitter with greater speed than that of the major league experienced challenged Hamilton.

E. Hamilton is not well suited for the leadoff spot or two spot since he is not a shortstop and maybe be better suited to bat seventh under the scheme of new management.

F. Hamilton is limited in options as he can only play right field and center, so with Patterson being the more experienced centerfielder with leadoff speed and the former great Junior in right, where would Hamilton play?

G. Hamilton’s range, glove and arm might be superior to that of Patterson, Freel, Hairston, Griffey, or Hopper who have been counted on to perform in right and center, yet not merit enough playing time to afford Hamilton the Abs to achieve such lofty numbers.

I can see where Hamilton probably wouldn’t be the same in Cincy, something about it all reminds me of the Jay Bruce rationale.

Some of that reminds me of the current Jay Bruce situation, and makes me wonder if the departure of Hamilton was actually met with the same reasoning that is going into the Bruce decisions today, maybe Texas would only accept Hamilton, maybe not but, Hamilton would not have had the same playing opportunity in Cincy.

WMR
05-17-2008, 02:15 PM
D. Patterson is a better option in fielding centerfield making him the leadoff hitter with greater speed than that of the major league experienced challenged Hamilton.

Disagree about Patterson being a better defensive option than Hamilton. Hamilton's absolute rocket compared with very respectable range and mobility place him well ahead of Patterson in my book.

Most of your reasoning is based around the idiocy of our current manager. Dusty's propensity to screw things up shouldn't be taken into account when analyzing the worth of one player over another IMO. Reasoning things around the "Dusty mold" will keep this team sucking. Dusty will manage himself out of Cincinnati soon enough.

Spring~Fields
05-17-2008, 02:21 PM
Disagree about Patterson being a better defensive option than Hamilton. Hamilton's absolute rocket compared with very respectable range and mobility place him well ahead of Patterson in my book.

Most of your reasoning is based around the idiocy of our current manager. Dusty's propensity to screw things up shouldn't be taken into account when analyzing the worth of one player over another IMO. Reasoning things around the "Dusty mold" will keep this team sucking. Dusty will manage himself out of Cincinnati soon enough.

Excellent points and very perceptive. ;)

WMR
05-17-2008, 02:23 PM
Excellent points. ;)

At least I'm praying he will (manage his way out of Cincinnati soon enough). ;)

Well, what I should say is: I'm confident Dusty will continue to make bad decisions... whether or not that'll be enough to get him an early ticket out of town remains to be seen. The fact that he's working for a GM who didn't hire him as well as for an owner who has demonstrated a propensity to eat contracts does give me some hope.

Always Red
05-17-2008, 02:40 PM
Disagree about Patterson being a better defensive option than Hamilton. Hamilton's absolute rocket compared with very respectable range and mobility place him well ahead of Patterson in my book.

Most of your reasoning is based around the idiocy of our current manager. Dusty's propensity to screw things up shouldn't be taken into account when analyzing the worth of one player over another IMO. Reasoning things around the "Dusty mold" will keep this team sucking. Dusty will manage himself out of Cincinnati soon enough.

In my humble opinion, Patterson is the best pure defensive CF the Reds have had since Mike Cameron (I just wish Patterson could hit). Josh was good, but Patterson better. I haven't seen Josh play CF this year, maybe he has improved?

Hamilton's howitzer (I agree he does have an absolute rocket!) makes him the perfect RF on my team. I'll never forget the stunning throw he made to the plate against the Red Sox in ST last year (Daisuke's game against the Reds in ST), which is the first time many of us ever laid eyes on him, or the throw against the Indians last year to preserve a shutout.

WMR
05-17-2008, 02:46 PM
It's an interesting debate... if you've got two fielders the same in every category, with one having a slightly stronger arm than the other, do you want your strongest arm in RF or CF? In RF there will be the occasional throw to 3rd base... the longest pure outfield throw. The CFer, however, will have more chances and their strong arm could, arguably, end up having a greater overall impact than from RF.

WMR
05-17-2008, 02:48 PM
BTW: Flyer had an interesting stat about Patterson's defense where it basically computed out to average or slightly above average. I think we as Reds fans have become so accustomed to abhorrent outfield defense that a capable defender such as Patterson becomes almost deified for his defensive ability.

redsrule2500
05-17-2008, 03:15 PM
Ugh, sickening. I have to admit that having Hamilton would be more helpful at this point.

membengal
05-17-2008, 03:17 PM
No offense, redsrule, but I find that kind of take insane.

redsrule2500
05-17-2008, 03:21 PM
No offense, redsrule, but I find that kind of take insane.

If he's able to bat in that many runs for our team, think about the possibilities. He's proving to be quite the clutch batter - if you added his 48 RBIs to our team think about how many games we would have won! Our Pythagorean Record would be much higher as well.

Patrick Bateman
05-17-2008, 03:25 PM
Disagree about Patterson being a better defensive option than Hamilton. Hamilton's absolute rocket compared with very respectable range and mobility place him well ahead of Patterson in my book.

Most of your reasoning is based around the idiocy of our current manager. Dusty's propensity to screw things up shouldn't be taken into account when analyzing the worth of one player over another IMO. Reasoning things around the "Dusty mold" will keep this team sucking. Dusty will manage himself out of Cincinnati soon enough.

I don't know about that. Patterson in my mind gets to a lot more balls than I can remember any other recent Reds CF has. Both read balls well, but Patterson is just a ton faster and gets to balls Hamilton would never have a chance on.

And it's not like Patterson has a bad arm either. I find the arm to be the most overrated tool... if that's the only thing from a defensive standpoint that Hamilton has over Patterson, than I take Patterson everyday out there (fielding wise). How often is that arm going to go to use on an everyday basis over Patterson's solid arm? I mean you only have to go back a few days to find Patterson making 2 outs with his arm.

Patrick Bateman
05-17-2008, 03:33 PM
If he's able to bat in that many runs for our team, think about the possibilities. He's proving to be quite the clutch batter - if you added his 48 RBIs to our team think about how many games we would have won! Our Pythagorean Record would be much higher as well.

It doesn't work that way. Hamilton has been basically the same hitter with runners on than he has in any normal situation. His RBI's are a function of two things:

1. Hamilton being a very good hitter

and

2. Hamilton having a ridiculous amount of RBI chances

Neither one has a thing to do with clutch. I can guarantee you that if Hamilton were with the Reds, his RBI opportunities would go down dramatically. He'd likely have guys like Patterson hitting in front of him. The Reds top of the order just isn't going to create enough chances. And that's the biggest problem with trying to use raw RBI totals as an objective evaluation tool. It just doesn't work.

If that trade was reversed, to this point, we'd be trading a .950 OPS CF for a 1.00 ERA starter. Obviously Volquez' numbers are going to start regressing, but to this point, I'd say it's safe to say the Reds would not have won any more games with Hamilton over Volquez. Right now Hamilton's numbers are very good, while Volquez' are record setting worthy. The future is up for debate, but with hindsight, Volquez has added more value.

VR
05-17-2008, 04:03 PM
Right now Hamilton's numbers are very good, while Volquez' are record setting worthy. .

Curious, what record for Volquez?

Because Hamilton is right on pace for the RBI record.

Far East
05-17-2008, 04:13 PM
Though he is having a ridiculous year, his numbers probably wouldn't be the same in Cincy.
I disagree. Many of Hamilton's outs last year were a direct result of each pitcher he faced being new to him.

He'd be doing better against those same NL pitchers in '08 if he were still in Cincy.

In the Al, he's having to face a whole new set of unfamiliar pitchers.

pahster
05-17-2008, 04:18 PM
I disagree. Many of Hamilton's outs last year were a direct result of each pitcher he faced being new to him.

He'd be doing better against those same NL pitchers in '08 if he were still in Cincy.

In the Al, he's having to face a whole new set of unfamiliar pitchers.

Were he in the NL he'd be facing many pitchers who have faced him and are better aware of his weaknesses. Those AL pitchers are also unfamiliar with him, which shouldn't be discounted. We'll see how Hamilton fares his second and third times through the league.

edabbs44
05-17-2008, 04:25 PM
Were he in the NL he'd be facing many pitchers who have faced him and are better aware of his weaknesses. Those AL pitchers are also unfamiliar with him, which shouldn't be discounted. We'll see how Hamilton fares his second and third times through the league.

Precisely. It works both ways.

membengal
05-17-2008, 04:33 PM
Curious, what record for Volquez?

Because Hamilton is right on pace for the RBI record.

Right now tied for the record for most consecutive starts with 1 earned run or less with 8 straight.

jojo
05-17-2008, 04:36 PM
Defensively, Patterson is a better center fielder than Hamilton.

jojo
05-17-2008, 04:38 PM
In the Al, he's having to face a whole new set of more talented pitchers.

I edited a bit. :beerme:

vaticanplum
05-17-2008, 05:20 PM
Rangers are last in MLB in runs allowed at 243 or 5.5 a game or about 872 for the season


RUNS YEAR R
1 Rangers 2000 974 .438 winning %
2 Rangers 2003 969 .438 winning %
3 Rangers 2001 968 .451 winning %
4 Rangers 2002 882 .444 winning %
5 Rangers 1998 875 .541 winning %

872 would be 6th worst in franchise history, though they are on pace to score 816 runs that would be just the 15th best in franchise history.

So despite Hamilton and his torrid production, this is a team that needs pitching.

Sounds familiar eh?

This is precisely why I think this was kind of a bananas trade for the Rangers. And i know that sounds crazy because 9.9 times out of 10 I'd say Hamilton is a player over which any team should salivate, but he's not going to help them if they can't pitch themselves out of a game. Which they might be able to had they not traded...you see, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

Hamilton could be a team-lifter and playoff catalyst on a whole boatload of teams. I'm afraid he's just not enough for that Texas team though.

Boy do I miss him. I think it was a brilliant trade and could well end up being Krivsky's legacy. I have (and have had) a lot more faith in Volquez than in Cueto or Bailey. But I really did just plain love watching Hamilton play. He made me feel like a Cracker Jack kid at the ballpark.

jojo
05-17-2008, 05:32 PM
This is precisely why I think this was kind of a bananas trade for the Rangers. And i know that sounds crazy because 9.9 times out of 10 I'd say Hamilton is a player over which any team should salivate, but he's not going to help them if they can't pitch themselves out of a game. Which they might be able to had they not traded...you see, it just doesn't make much sense to me.

Hamilton could be a team-lifter and playoff catalyst on a whole boatload of teams. I'm afraid he's just not enough for that Texas team though.

Boy do I miss him. I think it was a brilliant trade and could well end up being Krivsky's legacy. I have (and have had) a lot more faith in Volquez than in Cueto or Bailey. But I really did just plain love watching Hamilton play. He made me feel like a Cracker Jack kid at the ballpark.

Texas is rebuilding and they've made a conscious decision to build around position players-a strategy that generally has less risk associated with it.... Their system is loaded and they'll have little trouble getting arms when they choose too.

vaticanplum
05-17-2008, 05:41 PM
Texas is rebuilding and they've made a conscious decision to build around position players-a strategy that generally has less risk associated with it.... Their system is loaded and they'll have little trouble getting arms when they choose too.

There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

And no, I don't consider Volquez a prospect. he was ready.

jojo
05-17-2008, 05:43 PM
There is no such thing as a pitching prospect.

And no, I don't consider Volquez a prospect. he was ready.

I'm not suggesting their plan is to develop them. The can trade some livestock for the Volquez's of the world....

vaticanplum
05-17-2008, 05:52 PM
I'm not suggesting their plan is to develop them. The can trade some livestock for the Volquez's of the world....

...which brings me back to my original point :)

No, I see your point and I think you're correct. It really comes back to me wishing Hamilton played for a better team. He's quite fragile and despite his age, his major league playing time may be limited...I hate to think that the timing of these great few years he may have will be "wasted", both for him and for his team.

Will M
05-17-2008, 08:24 PM
thank goodness Volquez has been very good. otherwise Redszone would have melted down by now. :D

Reds1
05-17-2008, 09:16 PM
I agree! Like I said we'd be calling for the owner, GM, Manager, anyone!

With the Reds needing pitching I think everyone would do this trade again. It's just incredible to see though.

Hamilton already 1-1 with a run scored in today game.

coachw513
05-17-2008, 09:19 PM
Getting to enjoy an Astros-Rangers game...Josh is currently 1-2 after barely getting thrown out on a grounder by Tejada...facing Oswalt tonight...

Seriously, 49 RBI's??...but just as seriously, a 1.12 ERA??...

coachw513
05-17-2008, 09:56 PM
Just laced a single to CF for his 2nd hit, but was removed from the game...speculated on Rangers broadcast he didn't look good after he sprinted to 1B his last time up...hope he's okay...

klw
05-17-2008, 10:13 PM
thank goodness Volquez has been very good. otherwise Redszone would have melted down by now. :D

thank goodness Hamilton has been very good. otherwise Rangerszone would have melted down by now.

fearofpopvol1
05-17-2008, 10:25 PM
"General soreness" is the claim.

cincyinco
05-17-2008, 10:27 PM
And the "Hamilton is fragile" angle comes into play.

Raisor
05-17-2008, 10:28 PM
"General soreness" is the claim.

I'm day to day myself.

Reds1
05-17-2008, 10:47 PM
Ironic this happens after we start this thread. As awesome as he is this is the scarey part to him. The wear and tear on his body

Chip R
05-18-2008, 01:32 AM
I am rock solid sure Josh wouldn't have this many RBIs if he had stayed in Cincy. Why, you may ask? Look who leads off every day. :D

Seriously, I love what Mad Dog has done here so far but like VP, I loved watching him play last year here. I loved it when guys would challenge his arm and he'd throw them out.

Back to what WMR said earlier, who is the better defensive CF, Patterson or Josh? Patterson has speed to burn, and is probably more knowledgable about where to position himself on defense. His arm is accurate but not that good. OTOH, Josh is not as fast as Patterson but still is pretty fast. He has that howitzer of an arm which will cut down players crazy enough to run on him and keep players from taking the extra base on him. He probably doesn't know how to position himself that well yet but that will come in time. Overall, I'd say a slight advantage to Patterson.

Spring~Fields
05-18-2008, 02:39 AM
All this talk about Hamilton has me wondering if Texas is closer to home in Orlando for Junior a DH, Patterson his caddy and if they would want the Texas native son Bailey in exchange for Hamilton. Hey if they wanted to play hard ball we could toss in Coffey and Majewski. ;)

I know, I know, taking those dream pills again.

Sure would like to have Hamilton back though. Hamilton, Dunn, Bruce and Votto has a nice ring.

redsrule2500
05-18-2008, 03:48 AM
What happened? ESPN is reporting a leg injury, but I don't know how serious!?

Spring~Fields
05-18-2008, 08:16 AM
What happened? ESPN is reporting a leg injury, but I don't know how serious!?


Contradictory comments is all I could find.

“TEXAS OUTFIELDER JOSH HAMILTON LEFT THE GAME IN THE BOTTOM OF THE FIFTH INNING DUE TO EXHAUSTION .”

“Hamilton, the major league RBI leader, left for a pinch-runner after his single in the fifth. The outfielder was still sore from the tumble he took while almost making a spectacular running catch in center in the first inning Friday night.”

GAC
05-18-2008, 08:51 AM
Each team got what they wanted from the deal, and so far, it has worked out for both.

I still believe, when it comes to the post-season, that pitching wins.

It's just too bad - because I don't think Tom Hicks is that bright of an owner - that we couldn't have traded Dunn for Volquez. ;)

Having Bruce and Hamilton in this OF in '09 would have been awesome to watch.

C'est la vie

Spring~Fields
05-18-2008, 09:22 AM
It's just too bad - because I don't think Tom Hicks is that bright of an owner - that we couldn't have traded Dunn for Volquez. ;)

Having Bruce and Hamilton in this OF in '09 would have been awesome to watch.

C'est la vie

I find it difficult to fully accept that Texas had no reservations regarding the risks that come along with Hamiltons injuries last season and questionable stamina after such a long layoff from baseball, and with other risks that could happen to any human being with Hamiltons past. I would like to think that the Reds had other alternatives that would have interested them, but perhaps not.

GAC
05-18-2008, 11:38 AM
I find it difficult to fully accept that Texas had no reservations regarding the risks that come along with Hamiltons injuries last season and questionable stamina after such a long layoff from baseball, and with other risks that could happen to any human being with Hamiltons past. I would like to think that the Reds had other alternatives that would have interested them, but perhaps not.

Josh, who may prove to be far more talented on both sides of the ball, is also a lot cheaper and low risk, as compared to an Adam Dunn who would be a FA after this season.

Dunn would be a solid DH in the AL though. ;)

Matt700wlw
05-18-2008, 11:42 AM
Trade to get him back :)

Screwball
05-18-2008, 12:25 PM
I'll still take Edinson's absurd 397 ERA+, though..

Unassisted
05-18-2008, 12:29 PM
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/baseball/rangers/stories/051808dnsporangbriefs.3112cdd.html


Hamilton ready for a break

12:00 AM CDT on Sunday, May 18, 2008

By RICHARD DURRETT / The Dallas Morning News
rdurrett@dallasnews.com

ARLINGTON – Manager Ron Washington pulled Josh Hamilton aside in spring training and made it clear the slugger should tell him when he needed a break.

"He still reminds me even now," Hamilton said.

Hamilton heeded Washington's words Saturday. His shoulder, hip and left calf were a little sore after hitting the grass diving for a fly ball in the first inning of Friday's 16-8 win. So Hamilton asked to play right field to get a break from running all over the place in center. Then, he asked to come out of the lineup in the fifth after the soreness still bothered him. He said it isn't serious, but that he probably won't play today.

"It's about being smart and I've finally kind of realized that," said Hamilton, who was 2-for-3 on Saturday after going 5-for-5 with two homers and five RBIs on Friday. "It's about what I think is the best move for the team and what the best move is for my body. I'd like to play as many games as I possibly can."

Hamilton played in 90 games last season because of several stays on the disabled list. He had 47 RBIs. In 42 games this season, he has a major league high 49 RBIs.

WebScorpion
05-19-2008, 02:31 AM
Wednesday will be Josh's 27th birthday, (I remember because it's the day after my oldest daughter's,) and I can't help wondering what the lost years could have been. Last season was his first year back and we saw the tip of what he can do...he has always been sooo natural. He'll probably be even better this year and the next few years, but Adam Dunn is 28...what could Josh have done with those years? More than Adam? We'll never know. No doubt, the guy is still a joy to watch. Here's hoping he stays straight and enjoys every moment! :beerme: Good on ya, Josh!

EDIT: HA! As I read over this I realized it might seem like I'm making fun of his addiction with the beerme toast at the end...I assure you that is not the case, I'm just that oblivious at 1:30am. :D

Kc61
05-22-2008, 06:48 PM
Hamilton now in a tight race with the Reds RBI leaders.

Hamilton has 53.

Dunn and Phillips combined have 54.

Should go down to the wire.

RedsManRick
05-22-2008, 07:21 PM
Here's some food for thought:



NAME PA PA_ROB ROB ROB/PA_ROB RBI-HR (RBI-HR)/ROB R1 GIDP
Hamilton 216 105 146 1.39 40 0.274 69 3
Dunn 177 69 102 1.48 18 0.176 43 2
Phillips 190 94 124 1.32 17 0.137 65 7

PA_ROB: Plate Appearances with Runners on Base
ROB: Total Number of Runners on Base
R1: Runners on First Base


Some observations:
- Hamilton has had significantly more RBI opportunities than either Phillips or Dunn, if (like me) you count any runner on base as a potential RBI
- Hamilton has driven in runners on base (RBI-HR) at a significantly higher rate than Dunn, who in turn has done so much more than Phillips. BP has been horrible at driving in runs -- exactly half as good as Josh Hamilton.
- Both Hamilton and Phillips have had many more runners on first base than has Dunn. Phillips has grounded in to a double play in roughly 10% of his opportunities to do so -- Hamilton and Dunn 5% each.
- Adam Dunn has had not just significantly fewer runners on base than Hamilton and Phillips, but those runners are more clumped together. That means Dunn's RBI are more subject to the whims of variance because he's faced with "better" RBI opportunties, but fewer of them.

Two other notes:
- Josh Hamilton has come to the plate with a man on 3rd base 21 times. Nobody else in baseball has had more than 15 (Phillips 10, Dunn 8)
- A more thorough analysis would use R1, R2, and R3 and apply a weight instead of using the aggregate ROB. As you can see in the prior note, Josh has been the beneficiary of cherry picking a lot of "easy" RBI opportunities, in addition to simply have a lot of runners

I love my BP subscription :)

REDREAD
05-22-2008, 07:33 PM
As you can see in the prior note, Josh has been the beneficiary of cherry picking a lot of "easy" RBI opportunities, in addition to simply have a lot of runners

I love my BP subscription :)


No doubt, he's had opportunities, particularly with 21 men at 3rd, but to his credit, he's getting the job done. Dunn and Phillips combined have had a lot more opportunities and plate appearances than Josh, yet Josh only trails them by 1 RBI according to the previous poster. He's having an amazing year. I know no one is denying that. I wish him well and hope he keeps it up.

redsmetz
05-22-2008, 07:39 PM
No doubt, he's had opportunities, particularly with 21 men at 3rd, but to his credit, he's getting the job done. Dunn and Phillips combined have had a lot more opportunities and plate appearances than Josh, yet Josh only trails them by 1 RBI according to the previous poster. He's having an amazing year. I know no one is denying that. I wish him well and hope he keeps it up.

Would that be interesting if Hamilton won the AL MVP and Volquez won the NL Cy Young? I wonder if a trade like that every happened? I know Milt Pappas never won the Cy Young!

RedsManRick
05-22-2008, 07:44 PM
No doubt, he's had opportunities, particularly with 21 men at 3rd, but to his credit, he's getting the job done. Dunn and Phillips combined have had a lot more opportunities and plate appearances than Josh, yet Josh only trails them by 1 RBI according to the previous poster. He's having an amazing year. I know no one is denying that. I wish him well and hope he keeps it up.

Right. The simplified version of my post is that Josh's incredible RBI total is a combination of taking great advantage of great opportunity.

Phillips has taken poor advantage of good opportunity. Dunn has taken fair advantage of fair opportunity.

(poor-fair-good-great)

It's important to remember both, and primarily judge the player based on the taking advantage half. Hence, why RBI are a relatively poor measure of player performance -- it captures both inextricably.

RedsManRick
05-22-2008, 08:00 PM
FWIW, Hammy hit a solo HR in the top of the 10th to provide the game winning run today. He's not showing any signs of slowing down.

For reasons I've said elsewhere, I still like the trade. But wow... just wow. It will be interesting to see how he handles the grind of a full season.

Spring~Fields
05-22-2008, 08:35 PM
Here's some food for thought:



NAME PA PA_ROB ROB ROB/PA_ROB RBI-HR (RBI-HR)/ROB R1 GIDP
Hamilton 216 105 146 1.39 40 0.274 69 3
Dunn 177 69 102 1.48 18 0.176 43 2
Phillips 190 94 124 1.32 17 0.137 65 7

PA_ROB: Plate Appearances with Runners on Base
ROB: Total Number of Runners on Base
R1: Runners on First Base


Some observations:
- Hamilton has had significantly more RBI opportunities than either Phillips or Dunn, if (like me) you count any runner on base as a potential RBI
- Hamilton has driven in runners on base (RBI-HR) at a significantly higher rate than Dunn, who in turn has done so much more than Phillips. BP has been horrible at driving in runs -- exactly half as good as Josh Hamilton.
- Both Hamilton and Phillips have had many more runners on first base than has Dunn. Phillips has grounded in to a double play in roughly 10% of his opportunities to do so -- Hamilton and Dunn 5% each.
- Adam Dunn has had not just significantly fewer runners on base than Hamilton and Phillips, but those runners are more clumped together. That means Dunn's RBI are more subject to the whims of variance because he's faced with "better" RBI opportunties, but fewer of them.

Two other notes:
- Josh Hamilton has come to the plate with a man on 3rd base 21 times. Nobody else in baseball has had more than 15 (Phillips 10, Dunn 8)
- A more thorough analysis would use R1, R2, and R3 and apply a weight instead of using the aggregate ROB. As you can see in the prior note, Josh has been the beneficiary of cherry picking a lot of "easy" RBI opportunities, in addition to simply have a lot of runners

I love my BP subscription :)

From this could it be assumed that if Dunn and Phillips had higher on base percentages players hitting in front of them that they might have had more RBI ? Has Patterson and Griffey hurt their chances?

RedsManRick
05-22-2008, 09:02 PM
From this could it be assumed that if Dunn and Phillips had higher on base percentages players hitting in front of them that they might have had more RBI ? Has Patterson and Griffey hurt their chances?

Without a doubt. Though looking back, Hamilton and Phillips are getting roughly the same number of runners per PA (.68 to .65, Dunn is at .58). Hamilton has been MUCH better at driving in the opportunities he's had.

It's important not to under-emphasize the role of simple plate appearances. Hamilton has 39 more plate appearance per game than has Dunn, 26 more than Phillips. Add that to the quality of ROB (the guys on 3rd) and you can see the wonderful confluence of events for Hamilton.

Caveat Emperor
05-22-2008, 09:31 PM
The only way this will ever be settled is if Volquez strikes out Hamilton in the bottom of the 9th of a Game 7 WS matchup to give the Reds a victory over the Rangers.

Right now, I'm putting the odds of that headline happening somewhere between "Study shows Big Mac can help lower risk of heart attack" and "President Miley Cyrus asks for Cease Fire in Antarctic War."

Reds1
05-28-2008, 01:09 AM
5 Rbi night! Just crazy what this kid is doing! Could be one of the best offensive seasons ever by a player. 58 RBIs....

That being said Jay Bruce looks awful special too! And he's much younger! :)

reds44
05-28-2008, 01:21 AM
Josh Hamilton was made expandable because of Jay Bruce.

*BaseClogger*
05-28-2008, 01:32 AM
:explode:

WVPacman
05-28-2008, 01:34 AM
Im not throwing Jr under the bus but just think our outfield could have been Dunn,Hamilton,Bruce.:(

Unassisted
05-28-2008, 01:34 AM
Just keep reminding yourself that having Volquez is better than winning/losing games by scores like 12-11. :)

WVPacman
05-28-2008, 01:40 AM
Just keep reminding yourself that having Volquez is better than winning/losing games by scores like 12-11. :)

VERY TRUE!!! Thats whats so good about this trade both teams won.:beerme:

Reds1
05-28-2008, 01:53 AM
As good of a season as Josh has had we needed pitching. I would do the trade again, but I love Josh and hope the best. Especially since he's on 3 of my fantasy teams.:evil:

SunDeck
05-28-2008, 10:47 AM
I just heard Josh Hamilton cured cancer last night and then caught a baby that fell out of the upper deck. Can anyone confirm this?

OldRightHander
05-28-2008, 10:56 AM
I just heard Josh Hamilton cured cancer last night and then caught a baby that fell out of the upper deck. Can anyone confirm this?

He caught that baby with his bare hand while snagging a deep drive into the gap with his glove hand, but he's still no Coombs.

mbgrayson
05-28-2008, 11:05 AM
Josh Hamilton was made expandable because of Jay Bruce.

Hamilton's stats have indeed expanded:
.329/.371/.603 for an OPS of .974 with 13 HRs and 58 RBIs.

Hamilton leads the AL(and MLB) in RBIs, is one behind the AL leader in HRs, and is tied for first in batting average.

Edinson Volquez leads MLB in strikeouts, ERA, and has 7 wins.

I really don't think Hamilton was 'expendable', but so far it has been a value for value trade.

lollipopcurve
05-28-2008, 11:21 AM
Hamilton is better than he was last year. Tremendous, tremendous baseball talent. The HR he hit off an inside fastball from a lefty yesterday (the ball was inside off the plate, even) was ridiculous. I admit it's hard not to wonder what it would have been like to have him and Bruce for 5-6 years in the heart of the lineup.

Still, the trade is OK by me.

kaldaniels
05-28-2008, 02:55 PM
Uh oh guess who is this weeks SI cover boy???

redsrule2500
05-28-2008, 04:16 PM
we should have traded anything and everything for Volquez....besides Hamilton :(

fearofpopvol1
05-28-2008, 04:31 PM
we should have traded anything and everything for Volquez....besides Hamilton :(

I keep seeing this being said and I think it misses the point...I don't think Texas would've traded Volquez for anyone other than Hamilton. I mean, maybe if they wanted to trade Harang or empty out the farm system.

Josh is having a fantastic year, but so is Volquez. It's far too early to say who won/lost the trade. I'd still do the deal 10/10 times. It looks like Herrera may be able to help out the (bad) bullpen as well.

MartyFan
05-28-2008, 04:51 PM
I just heard Josh Hamilton cured cancer last night and then caught a baby that fell out of the upper deck. Can anyone confirm this?

It's been reported that some people actually had limbs grow back and other rose again from the dead when Hamilton hit the field.:beerme:

flyer85
05-28-2008, 04:56 PM
I don't think Texas would've traded Volquez for anyone other than Hamilton. Bruce Almighty :D

fearofpopvol1
05-28-2008, 05:00 PM
Bruce Almighty :D

Haha, true! But wouldn't you rather have Bruce than Hamilton? I would.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 05:08 PM
Haha, true! But wouldn't you rather have Bruce than Hamilton? I would.Yep, but I am sure the Rangers would have done Bruce for Volquez.

Reds1
05-28-2008, 05:57 PM
we should have traded anything and everything for Volquez....besides Hamilton :(

I would have even traded Cory Patterson for him = I mean staight up. Maybe thrown in Coffey, but that might have been too much! ;)

paintmered
05-28-2008, 06:14 PM
we should have traded anything and everything for Volquez....besides Hamilton :(

Texas wouldn't have. They came to the table and wanting nothing other than Hamilton. Just because Texas "won" in the deal, doesn't mean that the Reds didn't. Don't fall into the trap where trades have to be viewed in terms of fantasy baseball where the goal is to get the better deal than the other guy. If the Reds win in a trade (and so far they have), that's more than good enough for me no matter if the other team wins or loses. 25-year-old aces don't grow on trees, ya know.

Just as I would want to fantasize about an outfield of Dunn/Hamilton/Bruce, I don't want to think about what the Reds' starting rotation would look like without Volquez.

reds44
05-28-2008, 06:50 PM
The Rangers called the Reds asking for Hamilton, I don't think they were interested in anybody else.

KronoRed
05-28-2008, 07:54 PM
The Rangers called the Reds asking for Hamilton, I don't think they were interested in anybody else.

This can't be said enough.

Degenerate39
05-30-2008, 10:45 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/albert_chen/05/27/hamilton0602/index.html

Heck of a story. I hope Hamilton keeps playing like he has been.

Tommyjohn25
05-30-2008, 11:15 AM
That really was a good read, some interesting insight on his time in Cincy as well.

PuffyPig
05-30-2008, 12:33 PM
The Rangers called the Reds asking for Hamilton, I don't think they were interested in anybody else.


I think that the Rangers would have also asked for Bruce if they thought he as available (he wasn't).

I suspect that Bruce would have had more trade value that Hamilton, as he came with less "hair".

HokieRed
05-30-2008, 01:15 PM
All I know is that as much as I like Volquez, I'd rather have Hamilton and Bruce and be using Dunn's salary money to pay a pitcher that would be a part of the rotation--not as good a part as Volquez obviously but a decent third starter. I continue to think that would have been a better way for Wayne to have gone.

GAC
05-30-2008, 01:38 PM
All I know is that as much as I like Volquez, I'd rather have Hamilton and Bruce and be using Dunn's salary money to pay a pitcher that would be a part of the rotation--not as good a part as Volquez obviously but a decent third starter.

Looking at this market that could be another Eric Milton, Jeff Weaver, or some other aged veteran trying to hang on via name recognition. it's why teams are still throwing out 40+ yr old guys like Maddux, Glavine, and Johnson. While others are anxiously waiting for the recovery and return of such pitchers like Schmidt, Millwood, Carpenter, Pryor, Mulder, and Clement, the list goes on and on. ;)

If you have a young arm, and he shows strong potential, teams are not so easy to part with it unless it's for someone like a Hamilton.

Take a good look around.... there really haven't been many solid starters available in the FA market these last few years. Most have been high priced risks.

Josh Hamilton could turn into one helluva a ballplayer.... yet he plays on a team that doesn't have what?.... pitching.

I'll take the pitching. It's easier, IMO, for teams to find the players in the market to fill the other.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 01:45 PM
Looking at this market that could be another Eric Milton, Jeff Weaver, or some other aged veteran trying to hang on via name recognition. it's why teams are still throwing out 40+ yr old guys like Maddux, Glavine, and Johnson. While others are anxiously waiting for the recovery and return of such pitchers like Schmidt, Millwood, Carpenter, Pryor, Mulder, and Clement, the list goes on and on. ;)



Very true.

Johnny Footstool
05-30-2008, 01:50 PM
Randy Johnson is still pitching very well. It's his health that isn't holding up -- not surprising for a guy so close to getting his AARP card.

REDREAD
05-30-2008, 01:54 PM
I keep seeing this being said and I think it misses the point...I don't think Texas would've traded Volquez for anyone other than Hamilton. I mean, maybe if they wanted to trade Harang or empty out the farm system.
.

Yes, the story I recall is that Texas came to the Reds asking what it would take to get Hamilton. Wayne picked Volquez + Herra, and Texas agreed.
It wasn't as if the Rangers approached the Reds looking to get rid of Volquez.

REDREAD
05-30-2008, 02:01 PM
Looking at this market that could be another Eric Milton, Jeff Weaver, or some other aged veteran trying to hang on via name recognition.


Or it could've been Haren, Bedard, Cain, or Lincecum or someone else like that. All those guys were available last offseason.

The Reds were in a unique position last year of having plenty of marketable minor league talent, and plenty of good starting pitching was on the market.

Would it have worked out as good? There's no telling.
I don't know if a package of Votto, Dunn, and/or Homer would get us a good starting pitcher or not. But maybe it would've.

We can't accept that the only options for adding pitching to this team are guys like Milton and Weaver.. If that's the case, we might as well contract the team. :lol: I agree with your point that the FA market was pretty thin last year.

I wouldn't have done Hamiton for Volquez. I'd still rather have Hamilton, but it's not the trade was a disaster.

TRF
05-30-2008, 03:24 PM
I wouldn't have done Hamiton for Volquez. I'd still rather have Hamilton, but it's not the trade was a disaster.

I don't think in hindsight the Rangers would have either.

REDREAD
05-30-2008, 03:34 PM
I don't think in hindsight the Rangers would have either.

Not sure I understand. Are you saying the Rangers are happy or unhappy with the trade?

My guess is that they are thrilled with Hamilton. He's far exceeding expectations so far. When you get more than you want out of a trade, you tend not to worry about what you give up. That goes for the Volquez boosters as well. Even if Josh hits 200 HR this year, they won't regret the trade. (Exaggerating to make a point).

Both are outstanding players. It's hard to say one team lost the trade at this point.

TRF
05-30-2008, 03:38 PM
I live in Texas. The Rangers ARE thrilled with Hamilton. That said, I bet they'd trade him for Volquez right now if the offer were made. Texas has a history of producing offense and never having a quality starter. Volquez is beyond quality.

Dan
05-30-2008, 04:24 PM
Even with Hamilton doing as well as he's doing (and I wish him the best) I STILL feel like the Reds STOLE Volquez from the Rangers. How Texas gives up an arm of that quality for ANYONE is beyond me. But they did it and the Reds gotta hang on to it now.

paulrichjr
05-30-2008, 04:54 PM
WayneK had a lot of backbone to pull off that trade. For those who felt that he had lost his guts after "The Trade" you now have to admit he had more than expected. I wouldn't have done it and I'm still not sure that I would do it based upon what I have seen so far. I love Volquez but Hamilton is a star... a face for the franchise that Griffey never became. ....Ask me again in 5 minutes and I would probably say that the trade was a good one...

oregonred
05-30-2008, 05:00 PM
Even with Hamilton doing as well as he's doing (and I wish him the best) I STILL feel like the Reds STOLE Volquez from the Rangers. How Texas gives up an arm of that quality for ANYONE is beyond me. But they did it and the Reds gotta hang on to it now.

I agree. That trade took some cajones.

24-year old with ace material at league minimum the next couple of seasons. How anyone could fret and say the reds "lost" that trade is beyond me.

Razor Shines
05-30-2008, 05:57 PM
Even with Hamilton doing as well as he's doing (and I wish him the best) I STILL feel like the Reds STOLE Volquez from the Rangers. How Texas gives up an arm of that quality for ANYONE is beyond me. But they did it and the Reds gotta hang on to it now.

I agree. Josh Hamilton is probably my favorite player in baseball right now, but my team is the Reds and the right thing for them was to get Volquez and hang onto Bruce, even if it meant giving up Hamilton. At this point if I were forced to pick between the two I'd take Bruce over Hamilton hands down (unless I had unlimited payroll).

HokieRed
05-30-2008, 05:58 PM
Why is it necessary to think one of Bruce or Hamilton had to be given up? Think of the offense we'd have right now with Votto, Bruce, Hamilton, and Dunn. Belisle or Fogg might have been able to win with those guys in the lineup.

Raisor
05-30-2008, 06:01 PM
Why is it necessary to think one of Bruce or Hamilton had to be given up? Think of the offense we'd have right now with Votto, Bruce, Hamilton, and Dunn. Belisle or Fogg might have been able to win with those guys in the lineup.

Think of the rotation if they hadn't.

Reds1
05-30-2008, 06:05 PM
Hope Dumitrait doesn't become a stud! He's not I know, but right now I'd take him in the 5th slot over Belise or that other guy! :)

Razor Shines
05-30-2008, 07:25 PM
Why is it necessary to think one of Bruce or Hamilton had to be given up? Think of the offense we'd have right now with Votto, Bruce, Hamilton, and Dunn. Belisle or Fogg might have been able to win with those guys in the lineup.

Again as much as I love JH, I'd choose a rotation with Volquez in it and line up without Hamilton over a line up with Hamilton and a rotation without Volquez. That's just me though.

AmarilloRed
05-30-2008, 07:33 PM
We got both Herrera and Volquez for Hamilton, and right now both of them project to be good major leaguers. It was a good trade for both teams.

RedsManRick
05-30-2008, 07:35 PM
Again as much as I love JH, I'd choose a rotation with Volquez in it and line up without Hamilton over a line up with Hamilton and a rotation without Volquez. That's just me though.

Not just you. Hamilton is great but one primary reason justifying the trade were the risks associated with his health history, both on and off the field. Those haven't changed.

Patrick Bateman
05-30-2008, 07:50 PM
I'd still be hard pressed to sign Hamilton long term. Signing him to a 5+ year deal could be ridiculously risky.

oregonred
05-30-2008, 10:13 PM
Why is it necessary to think one of Bruce or Hamilton had to be given up? Think of the offense we'd have right now with Votto, Bruce, Hamilton, and Dunn. Belisle or Fogg might have been able to win with those guys in the lineup.

No thanks. We tried that during the Bowden regime with laughable results. I'll take the stud young pitcher with electric stuff anytime.

It's pretty clear from all the GM and subsequent discussion from the trade that Hamilton was the Rangers target. The Reds were able to buy Volquez a little cheap since the Rangers (maybe the only franchise more inept then the Reds in developing and keeping young pitching) were impatient with him not posting Cy-Young numbers his first couple of chances in the bigs (see Cueto, Johnny for a current case study in progress).

The only targets the Rangers likely had were Bruce and Hamilton. Keeping Bruce was the no-brainer, so that left Hamilton. Quality for quality...

membengal
05-31-2008, 12:34 PM
Even with the Brandon Webb love nationally, EV is the best pitcher in the NL. Right now. And arguably the best pitcher in baseball.

osuceltic
05-31-2008, 12:39 PM
I'd still be hard pressed to sign Hamilton long term. Signing him to a 5+ year deal could be ridiculously risky.

One of the great things about having Hamilton right now that no one talks about is there really is no pressure to sign him to a long-term deal -- unless I'm not aware of something specific about his contract. You have him under your control during his prime years, 27-32. You enjoy those prime years and decide later what to do with a guy who is transitioning out of his prime.

Not making a statement on the trade one way or the other. So far both teams got what they want.

One thing I will say: The players on the team who ran Hamilton off because of his special treatment should be ashamed of themselves. Either it's all about winning or it's not.

Chip R
05-31-2008, 02:31 PM
At the game last night, I saw a guy with a Hamilton 33 T-shirt on and on the back he had "Volquez" on there with what looked like black electrical tape.

reds44
05-31-2008, 04:11 PM
At the game last night, I saw a guy with a Hamilton 33 T-shirt on and on the back he had "Volquez" on there with what looked like black electrical tape.
:lol:

I remember being at a game against the White Sox two years ago and I saw somebody with a Pena t with Ross taped over the back.

jojo
05-31-2008, 05:05 PM
Thru 5/30, here is how the relative value of Hamilton and Volquez to their teams compare using replacement level as a baseline (VORP for Hamilton and runs above a replacement for Volquez setting replacement level ERA at 5.70 for NL arms). This is simply a head to head comparison and doesn't factor in the impact the trade has had on the value of replacements each team used for the guy sent packing (i.e. Patterson has a VORP= -6 though his defense mitigates that a bit meanwhile Texas has gotten pretty good pitching from their rotation with the worst starter in their top 5 posting an ERA of 4.75)

Hamilton has posted this .327/.372/.597 in 252 plate appearances for a VORP=27.5 to this point (with BP calling him a CFer). For the sake of simplicity, I'll call Josh a neutral defensive center fielder (he might be anywhere from -5 to + 5).

Volquez has pitched 68 innings with an ERA of 1.46 do far which translates into being 32 runs better than a replacement level arm.

So as of 5/30, its the Reds 32 and the Rangers 27.5, good for a .4 win advantage to the Reds if just considering Hamilton vs Volquez.

VR
05-31-2008, 10:45 PM
Another 3 run jack from Hammy tonight give him 61 rbi's for May (game still in progress)

These guys are going to be quite some story if they keep it up.

LoganBuck
05-31-2008, 11:11 PM
At the game last night, I saw a guy with a Hamilton 33 T-shirt on and on the back he had "Volquez" on there with what looked like black electrical tape.

I walked out behind that guy. I laughed out loud when I saw it.

OldRightHander
06-01-2008, 01:10 AM
Another 3 run jack from Hammy tonight give him 61 rbi's for May (game still in progress)

These guys are going to be quite some story if they keep it up.

I was there. It was a laser to right center.

It was neat to see the reception the Rangers fans gave him every time he came up. He was getting a lot of love.

Once during the game they had the ERA leaders on the scoreboard. I saw the list and commented, "That Volquez guy is doing really well for Cincinnati. I wonder where they got him from." A fan to my left said, "Shut up. We never keep good pitchers around here." I mentioned that the trade seems to be helping both teams and he said, "I love Josh, but I wish we could have given up somebody else for him."

I think that might be a widespread opinion among Rangers fans.

Caveat Emperor
06-01-2008, 05:30 AM
"I love Josh, but I wish we could have given up somebody else for him."

I love Edinson, but wish we could have given up somebody else* for him.

* - Somebody else not named Jay Bruce

redsrule2500
06-01-2008, 07:22 AM
Can you guys imagine an outfield of Bruce, Dunn, Hamilton???? wow...

LoganBuck
06-01-2008, 01:35 PM
Can you guys imagine an outfield of Bruce, Dunn, Hamilton???? wow...

If they could have traded Jr, Majewski, and some dirty socks they could have had Volquez anyway......

OldRightHander
06-01-2008, 02:09 PM
When he was rounding the bases after the HR, they were playing the music from The Natural. I wonder if they play that every time he homers there. I can't help thinking that Hamilton and Bruce are two of the best stories in baseball right now. I hope they both keep tearing it up.

VR
06-01-2008, 03:37 PM
When he was rounding the bases after the HR, they were playing the music from The Natural. I wonder if they play that every time he homers there.

yes

mbgrayson
06-01-2008, 07:24 PM
Hamilton homered on the first pitch from Huston Street in the 9th tonight in Texas. He was 2 for 5 today. He also had an assist in nailing a runner at second. He now leads the AL in HRs(15) and RBIs(63), and is batting .328. His OPS is .983....Amazing story....

Unassisted
06-01-2008, 08:09 PM
When he was rounding the bases after the HR, they were playing the music from The Natural. I wonder if they play that every time he homers there.
Considering that "The Natural" ended badly for Roy Hobbs, it makes me wonder if whoever made the choice to repeatedly use that music remembers the rest of the film. I'm sure it's spine-chilling to hear that music after every Hamilton HR, but irony can be spine-chilling too.

blumj
06-01-2008, 08:21 PM
When he was rounding the bases after the HR, they were playing the music from The Natural. I wonder if they play that every time he homers there. I can't help thinking that Hamilton and Bruce are two of the best stories in baseball right now. I hope they both keep tearing it up.

I believe they play it every time any Ranger homers there. It can get really obnoxious.

Reds1
06-01-2008, 08:28 PM
Hamilton homered on the first pitch from Huston Street in the 9th tonight in Texas. He was 2 for 5 today. He also had an assist in nailing a runner at second. He now leads the AL in HRs(15) and RBIs(63), and is batting .328. His OPS is .983....Amazing story....

Just amazing! I was going to post this. He's a fantasty dream. Looks like Jay Bruce though has made the case for a good replacement for Hamilton and we added the best pitcher in the NL so far this year if not best pitcher in baseball.

jojo
06-03-2008, 01:27 PM
Thru 5/30, here is how the relative value of Hamilton and Volquez to their teams compare using replacement level as a baseline (VORP for Hamilton and runs above a replacement for Volquez setting replacement level ERA at 5.70 for NL arms). This is simply a head to head comparison and doesn't factor in the impact the trade has had on the value of replacements each team used for the guy sent packing (i.e. Patterson has a VORP= -6 though his defense mitigates that a bit meanwhile Texas has gotten pretty good pitching from their rotation with the worst starter in their top 5 posting an ERA of 4.75)

Hamilton has posted this .327/.372/.597 in 252 plate appearances for a VORP=27.5 to this point (with BP calling him a CFer). For the sake of simplicity, I'll call Josh a neutral defensive center fielder (he might be anywhere from -5 to + 5).

Volquez has pitched 68 innings with an ERA of 1.46 do far which translates into being 32 runs better than a replacement level arm.

So as of 5/30, its the Reds 32 and the Rangers 27.5, good for a .4 win advantage to the Reds if just considering Hamilton vs Volquez.

As of last night it's Volquez 32 and Hamilton 31.3. While Volquez has been sitting lazily on his butt (:cool:), Hamilton has hustled to the gap to a near tie.