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jhiller21
05-17-2008, 03:40 AM
http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/


Now a few words about Bad Homer Bailey and Good (Very Good) Jay Bruce.

And we’d all better shut up (me included) for now about bringing up Homer Bailey. He got beat up for the second straight time Friday night, walking six in five innings.

Our man who covers the Dayton Dragons, Marc Katz, visited Louisville recently and he asked Homer one question: “Have you learned anything down here.”

Homer’s answer was, “No,” and he walked away. End of interview. And that’s why Homer is still in Louisville and may remain there for a long time - or be traded.

Another story. I got this from two scouts and another impeccable source who saw it. On the day before a pitcher starts, he sits in the stands and charts the pitches of his team’s pitcher that night. It was Homer’s turn to chart that night, but he was reading a hunting magazine most of the time and paying little attention to what was going on on the field.

Another scout who has watched him said his fastball is down three to four miles an hour and he can’t throw it by anybody - in TRIPLE A! “I saw him two starts ago and he acted as if he didn’t care,” said the scout.

Homer, we hardly knew ye.

The 18 year old kid who was calling everyone "sir" back in 2004 seems to have turned into a hot head in his minor league career. Apparently his fastball isn't anything special these days, and his control hasn't improved at all.

Is it time to start worrying about Homer? Did Krivsky make a mistake in not trading him for proven talent?

IrishDavidKY
05-17-2008, 09:35 AM
Charting pitches from the stands? That's a first!

Rounding Third
05-17-2008, 09:43 AM
I think Krivsky was trying to trade him for proven talent, Bedard, but they wanted the good (Jay Bruce.)

Ghosts of 1990
05-17-2008, 09:50 AM
Well if Bruce is as advertised, and Homer is not; we're batting .500 on superstar prospects. Honestly, is there anyone here who won't be happy with that with the way things have gone here in the past?

I'm just happy that it appears that we've finally got some young arms that can pan out and contribute as major leaguers, plus my handle name-sake of course (Bruce).

The most concerning thing for me isn't the attitude. I'm glad he's mad about being in AAA. It's the comment about his fastball. If that's accurate, there is big trouble with this kid.

schmidty622
05-17-2008, 10:04 AM
Id throw him into a Dunn trade to sweeten the pot for another team and bring us something better in return.

Ghosts of 1990
05-17-2008, 10:08 AM
Id throw him into a Dunn trade to sweeten the pot for another team and bring us something better in return.

Was just thinking about that.

Spin them to an AL team in need. Although I love Dunn I think he's the only one with value (Between he and Griffey) that could open up an every day spot for Brucer.

You trade Dunn and Bailey and you are looking at some good good returns in the way of a great RH bat. The question we ask from here is, if we're looking to trade Dunn and Bailey--who is a good suitor and what do they have that we want that honestly fits? RH Outfielder? (Still having Freel, Hopper, Junior, Bruce, and ugh Patterson in the mix) Not sure we go for an OF.

More pitching? Trade young pitching Bailey for more pitching? Seems like a bad gamble.

Dracodave
05-17-2008, 10:09 AM
The most concerning thing for me isn't the attitude. I'm glad he's mad about being in AAA. It's the comment about his fastball. If that's accurate, there is big trouble with this kid.


I wonder if it's still arrow straight as well? It was last year, I know most will blame that on injury but yeah..It was straight.

-------
Interesting fact (Not off topic but kinda funny) every Video Game Counterpoint of him I have seen, Including MLB 2k8, has that fastball with little or not movement and only coming in at 92/94.. Never touching the higher velocity we saw last year.

Ghosts of 1990
05-17-2008, 10:14 AM
And did they mean it's fallen off 4 MPH from his top speed (97-98) or from his normal (93-94).

I'm guessing he's hitting 88,89,90 on the guns with the top out at 91-92 which is dime a dozen really.

Nasty_Boy
05-17-2008, 10:14 AM
I've read many scouts that think Homer still has more upside than Volquez and Cueto... And for the record I'm a HUGE fan of his attitude. The writers and broadcasters (namely Hal, Doc, and Marty) are very bad about jumping on a player and riding them into the ground. Bailey was the savior last season and he pitched like a rookie, but I don't blame him for being pissed. He deserves the chance to be in the majors. Hopefully while he's there he'll keep the media at arms length.

ChatterRed
05-17-2008, 10:15 AM
Homer can sit in triple AAA. In fact, get his attention more by sending him down to double AA and bring up Darryl Thompson. In fact, let's start giving Thompson, Maloney, and Jukich all the publicity and let Homer just whine and cry.

I bet Homer would refuse to go to double AA.

Ghosts of 1990
05-17-2008, 10:17 AM
I've read many scouts that think Homer still has more upside than Volquez and Cueto... And for the record I'm a HUGE fan of his attitude. The writers and broadcasters (namely Hal, Doc, and Marty) are very bad about jumping on a player and riding them into the ground. Bailey was the savior last season and he pitched like a rookie, but I don't blame him for being pissed. He deserves the chance to be in the majors. Hopefully while he's there he'll keep the media at arms length.

Good post. I'm 100% in line with everything you said and you basically voiced my exact opinion on the kid.

You can never have TOO MANY good young pitchers. Especially starters. We need this kid to pan out.

schmidty622
05-17-2008, 10:22 AM
I say we take a path much like the Rangers did with Volquez. Install a lot of rules and requirements on Bailey that are contingent to his call up. Send him down to single A. If he hits the requirements their over a 4 start period, move him up. Continue that until he either fails to meet them or he is in the majors. It worked on Volquez so why not try it with Bailey?

Here are some of thing that Volquez was required to do.

• Run on and off the field within 12 seconds.

• On days he pitched, only speak to his catcher, manager and pitching coach.

• Write down a plan for the nine hitters.

• Use a No. 2 blade when shaving his head.

• Throw 60 percent first-pitch strikes.

• On 80 percent of 0-1, 0-2 counts, throw an action pitch, or quality purpose pitch.

• Chart pitches on days he is not starting.

• Always have his shirt tucked in, and his pants tidy.

Any violation of those rules would result in a $250 fine and a possible skip in the rotation. At first, Volquez was dejected, then his attitude brightened and his drive to get back to the majors became intense.

Copied from an Amy K. Nelson Espn.com Article

I would do that in a heartbeat as it looks to instill professionalism and good pitching fundamentals into the young man.

Ghosts of 1990
05-17-2008, 10:30 AM
It worked for Volquez, I say some of these young kids who have been handed everything would sink with that routine though. I know some would say 'let them sink' but we need Bailey and other youngsters. Some guys just have attitude problems. Bailey strikes me as a guy who might pitch well mad (first month in AAA after demotion this year as evidence) and I think Bailey's mean streak might benefit him as a pitcher

schmidty622
05-17-2008, 10:33 AM
A mean streak is fine on the mound, but if he's acting like reports say he has in the clubhouse, then he's not being professional.

jimbo
05-17-2008, 10:46 AM
I've read many scouts that think Homer still has more upside than Volquez and Cueto.

Any chance of posting some links?

Nasty_Boy
05-17-2008, 11:15 AM
Any chance of posting some links?

I'll try to find the links. I know that Keith Law (like him or hate him) has said this in his chats. I can't remember if the other was with Baseball America or Baseball Prospectus. I'll see what I can find.

RiSK
05-17-2008, 11:15 AM
Bailey was the savior last season and he pitched like a rookie, but I don't blame him for being pissed.

There was a savior last season? :confused:

jimbo
05-17-2008, 11:37 AM
I'll try to find the links. I know that Keith Law (like him or hate him) has said this in his chats. I can't remember if the other was with Baseball America or Baseball Prospectus. I'll see what I can find.

IMO, any scout who claims that Bailey has more upside than both Cueto and Volquez lacks credibility. Here are a couple of comments on Bailey from different scouts posted in McCoy's blog. It seems that everybody wants to blame the reporters for reporting anything negative about Bailey, but there seems to be plenty of evidence that Bailey needs an attitude adjustment.


Another story. I got this from two scouts and another impeccable source who saw it. On the day before a pitcher starts, he sits in the stands and charts the pitches of his team’s pitcher that night. It was Homer’s turn to chart that night, but he was reading a hunting magazine most of the time and paying little attention to what was going on on the field.

Another scout who has watched him said his fastball is down three to four miles an hour and he can’t throw it by anybody - in TRIPLE A! “I saw him two starts ago and he acted as if he didn’t care,” said the scout.

Jr's Boy
05-17-2008, 12:03 PM
With the likes of Josh Fogg and Matt Belisle in the rotation,I would be angry too about being in AAA.He did'nt write about how Homer had been pitching really well this year neither,rather harp on a player for not giving him the exclusive story.Hal Mccoy has just stooped to a near low by insulting a young man with the ''hardly knew ye''metaphor.
Tell ya what Hal,go find some more young pitching talent to criticize,we need more hard hitting Reds journalism.

RSNtransplant
05-17-2008, 12:18 PM
I say we take a path much like the Rangers did with Volquez. Install a lot of rules and requirements on Bailey that are contingent to his call up. Send him down to single A. If he hits the requirements their over a 4 start period, move him up. Continue that until he either fails to meet them or he is in the majors. It worked on Volquez so why not try it with Bailey?

Here are some of thing that Volquez was required to do.

• Run on and off the field within 12 seconds.

• On days he pitched, only speak to his catcher, manager and pitching coach.

• Write down a plan for the nine hitters.

• Use a No. 2 blade when shaving his head.

• Throw 60 percent first-pitch strikes.

• On 80 percent of 0-1, 0-2 counts, throw an action pitch, or quality purpose pitch.

• Chart pitches on days he is not starting.

• Always have his shirt tucked in, and his pants tidy.

Any violation of those rules would result in a $250 fine and a possible skip in the rotation. At first, Volquez was dejected, then his attitude brightened and his drive to get back to the majors became intense.

Copied from an Amy K. Nelson Espn.com Article

I would do that in a heartbeat as it looks to instill professionalism and good pitching fundamentals into the young man.

This is a great idea, provided the Reds follow through with the whole scenario and trade him for an OF who can lead the league in RBI. Only thing I'd change is the OF would bat righty.

jimbo
05-17-2008, 12:47 PM
With the likes of Josh Fogg and Matt Belisle in the rotation,I would be angry too about being in AAA.He did'nt write about how Homer had been pitching really well this year neither,rather harp on a player for not giving him the exclusive story.Hal Mccoy has just stooped to a near low by insulting a young man with the ''hardly knew ye''metaphor.
Tell ya what Hal,go find some more young pitching talent to criticize,we need more hard hitting Reds journalism.

Hal didn't insult anyone, he simply reported what some scouts had stated. Talk about being oversensitive.

And even if he is upset about being at AAA, then the worst thing he can do is pout about it like a child. He should suck it up, keep his mouth shut, do what he is told to do, and get the job done. Besides, his past two outings have clearly shown he is not even close to being a major league pitcher.

Hondo
05-17-2008, 12:56 PM
I would rather see Homer here, even in the bullpen for 2 inning stints than ever see Belisle or Fogg pitch in Cincinnati Ever, Ever again

Nasty_Boy
05-17-2008, 03:10 PM
There was a savior last season? :confused:

Yes, that's what the media made him out to be. Heck, he had made 1-2 starts max and there were billboards with him in Cincy.

Redeye fly
05-17-2008, 03:54 PM
With the likes of Josh Fogg and Matt Belisle in the rotation,I would be angry too about being in AAA.He did'nt write about how Homer had been pitching really well this year neither,rather harp on a player for not giving him the exclusive story.Hal Mccoy has just stooped to a near low by insulting a young man with the ''hardly knew ye''metaphor.
Tell ya what Hal,go find some more young pitching talent to criticize,we need more hard hitting Reds journalism.

Whatever you think of Hal, it's not as if Homer doesn't deserve his fair share of criticism. Yes Fogg is a less than stellar option because he's Josh Fogg, and Matt Belisle is a less than stellar option because he's never been able to figure out how to add good stuff with good location to equal success.

But the fact is Homer had a less than impressive spring. Now Josh Fogg and Matt Belisle weren't great either, though Belisle had an injury. But the opportunity was there for Bailey to win a spot. In fact, he arguably had a spot in the rotation to lose, and right or wrong, he lost it.

We've heard from Hal, opposing scouts, Reds fans, and people within the Reds organization who have cited some type of attitude problem with Bailey. That's a lot of smoke from a lot of different sources for there not to be a fire. And as far as his "pitching well", yeah he had been pitching fairly well. But for a prospect the level of Bailey, or the level that Bailey is supposed to be, pitching "fairly well" at the Triple A level is not all that encouraging to me. He has also had back to back poor starts, and has an ERA that is fast approaching 4.00 in Triple A. If Homer is as good and his stuff is as good as the Reds thought when they drafted him in the first round, he should be coming closer to dominating Triple A hitters, many of whom are fringe veterans who are not quite good enough anymore to occupy a regular spot on a 25 man major league roster, and others who will top out as decent AAA or "AAAA" type hitters.

Personally I have my doubts as to whether Bailey will be anywhere close to as good of a pitcher as the Reds thought he could be when they drafted him. A young pitcher who needs time to figure things out is one thing. A young pitcher who throws a painfully straight fastball and is still trying to gain consistency with his secondary offerings and seems to be a bit bull headed does not seem like the kind of guy that we should be all that excited about.

I hope I'm wrong, as we can use the good Homer Bailey in our rotation, or if nothing else, a nice trading chip somewhere down the road.

Redeye fly
05-17-2008, 03:56 PM
I would rather see Homer here, even in the bullpen for 2 inning stints than ever see Belisle or Fogg pitch in Cincinnati Ever, Ever again

I'm not so sure Belisle wouldn't be a better option in the bullpen than Bailey. Belisle in the rotation though.... yeah ugh.

ChatterRed
05-17-2008, 07:27 PM
I would rather see Homer here, even in the bullpen for 2 inning stints than ever see Belisle or Fogg pitch in Cincinnati Ever, Ever again

Yeah.....that'll help his bad attitude. :rolleyes:

Hondo
05-17-2008, 07:47 PM
Yeah.....that'll help his bad attitude. :rolleyes:

Chatter, I would rather see you out there than Fogg or Beilisle...

Homer probably would rather be in the Bullpen getting prepped for the Rotation than be in AAA anyhow...

jhiller21
05-17-2008, 10:29 PM
I agree that his arrow-straight fastball is also a problem, especially if it's coming in 4 mph slower than it was.

Watch Volquez pitch, his fastball is moving all over the place. The Indian's Carmona today was throwing a 94 mph sinker. Bailey needs to stop thinking he's a superstar and work on his pitches/grips.

Lockdwn11
05-17-2008, 10:45 PM
With the likes of Josh Fogg and Matt Belisle in the rotation,I would be angry too about being in AAA.He did'nt write about how Homer had been pitching really well this year neither,rather harp on a player for not giving him the exclusive story.Hal Mccoy has just stooped to a near low by insulting a young man with the ''hardly knew ye''metaphor.
Tell ya what Hal,go find some more young pitching talent to criticize,we need more hard hitting Reds journalism.

This is the thing,how can you be mad when you had a rotation spot handed to you before spring traning and you pitched yourself out of it and into AAA. If Bailey is mad he should be mad at himself and not the Reds front office

ChatterRed
05-18-2008, 12:18 AM
This is the thing,how can you be mad when you had a rotation spot handed to you before spring traning and you pitched yourself out of it and into AAA. If Bailey is mad he should be mad at himself and not the Reds front office

I agree. He seems to blame everyone but himself.

Big Hurt
05-18-2008, 10:13 AM
IMO it is immature frustration. Team officials need to simplify things for him and add a lot of structure (rules, goals). He's 21 and at that age some kids are mature some are not. He appears to be a bit eccentric too. This is not unusual but can sometimes lead to misunderstandings and inaccurate perceptions.
;) The doctor is in.

Trace's Daddy
05-18-2008, 11:20 AM
His attitude should not be too difficult to correct - I am more concerned about is fast ball.

Bruce4MVP
05-18-2008, 12:10 PM
Maybe it's possible the "fastball" was actually his cut fastball he's been working on.

I don't think anyone should take the word of scouts like this. They might have seen an off-day, or just not even the correct pitch. Just listen to a minor league game and then see where he actually is before everyone makes these assumptions.

ChatterRed
05-18-2008, 05:24 PM
Anyone hear Marty, Hal McCoy and Brantley's discussion on Homer in the second inning?

Marty was pretty harsh. People jump on Hal's comments, but Marty didn't hold back.

I can't remember it verbatim, but some of the comments were this:
1. In spring training, Homer acted like he already was a major league pitcher and was guaranteed a spot in the starting rotation.
2. Marty said that Homer isn't very likable or sociable. But added that you don't have to be likable to get the job done.
3. Were talking about his bad attitude, poor work ethic, etc. Said he needed to mature.

4. Went on and compared him as the opposite of Jay Bruce and said Jay Bruce is so likable and sociable, etc..........that the fans were going to love him.

Personally, I see Bailey packaged in a trade if they can get some team to bite and give them something of pretty good value for him. This organization has soured on Bailey, IMHO, and with Darryl Thompson and others starting to make their mark, no reason to pin all our hopes on Bailey. Maybe, like Hamilton, Bailey could bring another key piece of the puzzle to this team?

Nasty_Boy
05-18-2008, 06:04 PM
I remember last season Marty said the exact opposite. Coming into last spring training Marty talked about how mature Bailey was and how he thought he should be in the big leagues. Marty and Hal are two cranky old men that say thing for attention.

ChatterRed
05-18-2008, 06:31 PM
I remember last season Marty said the exact opposite. Coming into last spring training Marty talked about how mature Bailey was and how he thought he should be in the big leagues. Marty and Hal are two cranky old men that say thing for attention.

Marty is not one of my favorite people anymore. BUT..........these aren't the only comments telling us Bailey has an attitude problem. The overwhelming majority of insiders are saying the same thing.

Lockdwn11
05-18-2008, 09:01 PM
Marty is not one of my favorite people anymore. BUT..........these aren't the only comments telling us Bailey has an attitude problem. The overwhelming majority of insiders are saying the same thing.

I agree 100%!

durl
05-19-2008, 12:20 AM
Personally, I see Bailey packaged in a trade if they can get some team to bite and give them something of pretty good value for him. This organization has soured on Bailey, IMHO, and with Darryl Thompson and others starting to make their mark, no reason to pin all our hopes on Bailey. Maybe, like Hamilton, Bailey could bring another key piece of the puzzle to this team?

I wonder if we could trade Bailey to Texas for Hamilton? Do another pitcher/outfielder switch. :D

SarasotaFan
05-19-2008, 10:22 AM
Charting pitches from the stands? That's a first!

how's that a first ?? the pitcher's chart other pitchers (for their own team) in the minor leagues....saves on staff and once a starting pitcher throws their bullpen they don't have anything to do the rest of the day anyways

SarasotaFan
05-19-2008, 10:29 AM
I've read many scouts that think Homer still has more upside than Volquez and Cueto... And for the record I'm a HUGE fan of his attitude. The writers and broadcasters (namely Hal, Doc, and Marty) are very bad about jumping on a player and riding them into the ground. Bailey was the savior last season and he pitched like a rookie, but I don't blame him for being pissed. He deserves the chance to be in the majors. Hopefully while he's there he'll keep the media at arms length.he was the savior ?? no. he was thought to be the savior and wasn't.

can you get more upside than volquez right now ?? doubt it.

doubt one can keep the media at arm's length - if they want you, they'll find you. it's their job.

SarasotaFan
05-19-2008, 10:37 AM
Anyone hear Marty, Hal McCoy and Brantley's discussion on Homer in the second inning?

Marty was pretty harsh. People jump on Hal's comments, but Marty didn't hold back.

I can't remember it verbatim, but some of the comments were this:
1. In spring training, Homer acted like he already was a major league pitcher and was guaranteed a spot in the starting rotation.
2. Marty said that Homer isn't very likable or sociable. But added that you don't have to be likable to get the job done.
3. Were talking about his bad attitude, poor work ethic, etc. Said he needed to mature.

4. Went on and compared him as the opposite of Jay Bruce and said Jay Bruce is so likable and sociable, etc..........that the fans were going to love him.

Personally, I see Bailey packaged in a trade if they can get some team to bite and give them something of pretty good value for him. This organization has soured on Bailey, IMHO, and with Darryl Thompson and others starting to make their mark, no reason to pin all our hopes on Bailey. Maybe, like Hamilton, Bailey could bring another key piece of the puzzle to this team?i happened to be close enough for meeting between one of the minor league teams and their manager during spring training this year. you know, before they start their games at 1 everyday on the backfields. i liked what he had to say:

if you and another guy have the exact same stuff, but he's got better clubhouse mannerisms than you, who do you think they're gonna take ??

basically he was saying "be a good person, don't be an ass, don't be rude, be likable by your teammates, be positive to others, etc..."

44Magnum
05-19-2008, 01:37 PM
The Reds have changed Bailey's mechanics and are ruining him. The Reds are trying to force him to shorten his stride, slow him down, etc. They are doing far more harm than good. They are trying to turn him into Harang. He is not Harang.

SarasotaFan
05-19-2008, 01:49 PM
The Reds have changed Bailey's mechanics and are ruining him. The Reds are trying to force him to shorten his stride, slow him down, etc. They are doing far more harm than good. They are trying to turn him into Harang. He is not Harang.

they are trying to turn him into an effective pitcher. he's too slow to the plate, which allows the running game to be wide open. his fastball is flat - they are trying to get him to shorten his stride and throw downhill. major league hitters can hit a flat 93 / 94 as you saw last year....

captainmorgan07
05-19-2008, 01:58 PM
Bailey seems to me like a kid who wants to do it his way no matter how many times they tell him. He seems stubborn and relies on pure talent rather than work effort. Josh Fogg and Matt Belisle are proven major leaguers and Bailey sure isn't that. His Fastball may get AAA hitters out but as we all saw last year major leaguers can hit a straight fastball. He needs the other pitch to help out his fastball. Whether it be a change up like Volquez or a slider or curve.

Hondo
05-19-2008, 02:05 PM
Maybe this team needs to Sign Leo Mazzone to be its Pitching Coach...

Then Homer would turn into a young John Smoltz...

But Fogg and Belisle would still continue to suck.