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George Foster
05-17-2008, 07:36 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356505,00.html

Why don't they sue the owner of the park, the paint maker on the bat, the baseball manufacturer, the company the supplied the white dye used to dye the leather baseball, and the manufacturer of the uniform for not making the uniform thick enough.

Note: They make an under shirt for children to wear while playing baseball that has a pad to protect the heart. I guess the parents won't sue themselves...

guttle11
05-17-2008, 09:13 PM
I'm pretty much against a lot of lawsuits that are brought, but I have no problem with this. Aluminum bats are unsafe, above and beyond the normal amount of risk taken when playing sports. Any company that makes a product as unsafe as these bats is opening themselves up to a lawsuit.

cincyinco
05-17-2008, 09:16 PM
So how about then taking responsibility for the inherent risk you take playing any sport?

Its pretty well known the risks you take playing certain sports. Including baseball. Its why grown men don't play with aluminum bats in the show. It will kill someone.

Its unfortunate, but its a freak accident. This lawsuit is rediculous IMO. More frivilous suits from a suit happy generation.

Dracodave
05-17-2008, 09:56 PM
Its unfortunate, but its a freak accident. This lawsuit is rediculous IMO. More frivilous suits from a suit happy generation.

The hapless generation strikes again. Everyone knows the risks of playing sports, freak incidents or not. It's pretty synomomous. Sometimes people will get hurt, doesn't mean a law suit should start flying through and that everything should seriously take a back seat because of this.

RedlegJake
05-17-2008, 10:24 PM
Millions in medical care. Before I go off on these parents I have to say if they are under insured and the only way to get the funding needed to cover their son's medical care is to sue, you bet I'd sue. I'd do whatever it took to get the care my son needed, now and in the future. And, as a former little league coach I agree that aluminum bats and "hot" bats have no place at all in these leagues.

GoReds33
05-17-2008, 10:57 PM
I understand that they need help paying for it. I agree with RedlegJake, that given the situation, I would sue. This isn't a case of cashing in, as much as it is a case of being able to care for their very injured son.

durl
05-17-2008, 11:41 PM
I don't believe suing the bat company is a good decision. As the OP said, there are many others who would be just as "responsible" as the bat manufacturer, including the parents themselves. The part that saddens me is that they're also suing the store that SOLD the bat. Why no mention of them suing the family of the boy that actually hit the ball? Or the salesman that sold them the "dangerous" item? I'm guessing because there's no money in it. As much as I want to sympathize with their situation, going after those with deep pockets just seems, well, greedy.

The bat company won't simply roll over for a demand for cash (and open themselves up for countless numbers of lawsuits) so the parents will have to show direct negligence or that the product is defective and I would guess they won't be able to do that. And IF the parents win their suit, be prepared for Little League Baseball to make other parents jump through tons more hoops in order to shield themselves from future lawsuits. While the lawsuit has the appearance of caring for an injured son, it won't end with them receiving cash. It will have far-reaching consequences if they manage to win the case.

Reds Nd2
05-17-2008, 11:44 PM
So we ban aluminum bats at the little league level. Who pays for the wood bats?

Slyder
05-18-2008, 12:01 AM
I can understand why the parents are doing this. But arent the kids covered under Little League organization insurance? I know for soccer and stuff the players, refs are covered (usually comes as part of the filling/signing up fee). If so I can see where they could sue Little League but the bat makers is just a stretch.

If someone came up with a bat that would be safer and cost effective (IE dont break like wood) then theyd be using them. IF someone could theyd have a cash cow in their hands.

*BaseClogger*
05-18-2008, 12:08 AM
So we ban aluminum bats at the little league level. Who pays for the wood bats?

The same people that pay for the aluminum bats...the players?

Highlifeman21
05-18-2008, 12:50 AM
They're from NJ.

That's all I needed to read.

RedlegJake
05-18-2008, 11:19 AM
Simply make a deadened youth aluminum bat. Don't tell me that it can't be done - maybe the material would be a composite or an alloy or have a coating that deadens some of the energy down to the avg level of a wooden bat. Seems to me if they can make "hot" bats they can make safe bats for youth leagues and label them approved for youth leagues.

*BaseClogger*
05-18-2008, 11:51 AM
Simply make a deadened youth aluminum bat. Don't tell me that it can't be done - maybe the material would be a composite or an alloy or have a coating that deadens some of the energy down to the avg level of a wooden bat. Seems to me if they can make "hot" bats they can make safe bats for youth leagues and label them approved for youth leagues.

:thumbup:

NJReds
05-18-2008, 11:56 AM
They're from NJ.

That's all I needed to read.

Like people outside of NJ don't file lawsuits like this. :rolleyes:

Boston Red
05-18-2008, 01:08 PM
Simply make a deadened youth aluminum bat. Don't tell me that it can't be done - maybe the material would be a composite or an alloy or have a coating that deadens some of the energy down to the avg level of a wooden bat. Seems to me if they can make "hot" bats they can make safe bats for youth leagues and label them approved for youth leagues.


Not just for youths though. They should make that sort of bat the standard in high school and college, too.

Yachtzee
05-18-2008, 03:49 PM
Not just for youths though. They should make that sort of bat the standard in high school and college, too.

They've been talking about the need for this for years. It may just be a suit like this or a class action that finally gets bat companies to do it. "Hot" bats have no place in youth baseball. Save those for the adult softball leagues where the players are old enough to assume the risk of getting drilled on a come-backer.

IslandRed
05-18-2008, 04:27 PM
Not just for youths though. They should make that sort of bat the standard in high school and college, too.

I believe college baseball already has rules that limit how "hot" a bat can be.

As for youth leagues, I'm surprised more haven't done this but a league would have to be fully prepared to enforce it -- and that means either buying expensive testing equipment or simply having the league provide bats and force the players to use them, which many parents would hate just on general principle.

George Foster
05-18-2008, 10:18 PM
Millions in medical care. Before I go off on these parents I have to say if they are under insured and the only way to get the funding needed to cover their son's medical care is to sue, you bet I'd sue. I'd do whatever it took to get the care my son needed, now and in the future. And, as a former little league coach I agree that aluminum bats and "hot" bats have no place at all in these leagues.

The kid died, so their was very little spent for medical care.

It would not matter if it were a hot bat or not, if the kid hitting the ball is 150 pounds, and it hit exactly in the right spot, the same result would of happen. Some of these 12 year old kids are huge, what do you do, have a weight limit? The infielders are closer to home because it's a LL field.

If they were that concerned about this happening they could of gone to any major sporting good store and purchased the under-shirt I mentioned it the origional post

If their kid was hit by a hockey puck, they would be doing the same thing. The would be suing the rubber company that made the puck and the stick company that made the hockey stick. It's all about the coin.

Yachtzee
05-18-2008, 10:48 PM
The kid died, so their was very little spent for medical care.

It would not matter if it were a hot bat or not, if the kid hitting the ball is 150 pounds, and it hit exactly in the right spot, the same result would of happen. Some of these 12 year old kids are huge, what do you do, have a weight limit? The infielders are closer to home because it's a LL field.

If they were that concerned about this happening they could of gone to any major sporting good store and purchased the under-shirt I mentioned it the origional post

If their kid was hit by a hockey puck, they would be doing the same thing. The would be suing the rubber company that made the puck and the stick company that made the hockey stick. It's all about the coin.

Um, in the story you linked to, the kid's heart stopped, but he was resuscitated, but suffered brain damage. He's going to need lifelong medical care. I don't know if they knew the risks if the kid on the other team was using a "hot" bat. Why bring in the leauge? Well, did the league warn them that players could use hot bats and that those bats could pose a risk of harm to their kid? Did the league tell them to get their kid that flak jacket shirt you mentioned? Did the sporting goods store warn the people who purchased the bat that balls come off the bat at a higher speed that could cause injury to other kids?

Bat makers know the risks of their products and know to whom those bats are marketed. I'm far from a fan of frivolous lawsuits, but this is one of those cases where I think the parents have to sue. They're going to be caring for that boy for the rest of their lives. His injuries may have been caused by negligence and the negligence may have been caused by the bat maker in not providing adequate warnings on their product, the store, for not warning the purchaser, and/or the league for not warning the parents. If one or more of the parties wasn't negligent, they either get dismissed from the case by the judge or acquitted by the jury.

You assume that the parents were adequately warned of the dangers they exposed their kid to when they signed him up to play. That may not be true. I know I didn't know about flak jackets and all that stuff before you mentioned it in this thread. If I wasn't up on this aluminum bat controversy, I would have probably assumed aluminum bats were pretty much similar to what they were when I was a kid. So it really is important that bat makers and leagues make sure parents are aware of the dangers of these newer bats and the leagues warn parents that such bats may be used.

dougdirt
05-19-2008, 01:39 AM
Um, in the story you linked to, the kid's heart stopped, but he was resuscitated, but suffered brain damage. He's going to need lifelong medical care. I don't know if they knew the risks if the kid on the other team was using a "hot" bat. Why bring in the leauge? Well, did the league warn them that players could use hot bats and that those bats could pose a risk of harm to their kid? Did the league tell them to get their kid that flak jacket shirt you mentioned? Did the sporting goods store warn the people who purchased the bat that balls come off the bat at a higher speed that could cause injury to other kids?

Bat makers know the risks of their products and know to whom those bats are marketed. I'm far from a fan of frivolous lawsuits, but this is one of those cases where I think the parents have to sue. They're going to be caring for that boy for the rest of their lives. His injuries may have been caused by negligence and the negligence may have been caused by the bat maker in not providing adequate warnings on their product, the store, for not warning the purchaser, and/or the league for not warning the parents. If one or more of the parties wasn't negligent, they either get dismissed from the case by the judge or acquitted by the jury.

You assume that the parents were adequately warned of the dangers they exposed their kid to when they signed him up to play. That may not be true. I know I didn't know about flak jackets and all that stuff before you mentioned it in this thread. If I wasn't up on this aluminum bat controversy, I would have probably assumed aluminum bats were pretty much similar to what they were when I was a kid. So it really is important that bat makers and leagues make sure parents are aware of the dangers of these newer bats and the leagues warn parents that such bats may be used.

Stupidity isn't negligence, or at least it shouldn't be. You know that you could take a LD and not catch it. Don't tell me adults don't know that risk. They do. There is no negligence in that. Its like suing Mcdonalds because your coffee you spilled on you was hot. Oh wait, that happened. Still, negligence shouldn't have to cover common sense.

Yachtzee
05-19-2008, 09:33 AM
Stupidity isn't negligence, or at least it shouldn't be. You know that you could take a LD and not catch it. Don't tell me adults don't know that risk. They do. There is no negligence in that. Its like suing Mcdonalds because your coffee you spilled on you was hot. Oh wait, that happened. Still, negligence shouldn't have to cover common sense.

Is it common sense? Sure parents know the risk that a kid might not catch a line drive, but I doubt many parents are aware that a ball could come off an aluminum bat fast enough and hard enough to cause someone's heart to stop if they get hit. Did you know that? I didn't know that. I know my parents didn't know that when they let me play as a kid, or else there's no way they would have let me play. My mom wouldn't let me play organized football because she had worked as a receptionist at an orthopaedist's office and saw all the broken bones from football. If we compare it to another product, say lead-based paint. Every parent knows they shouldn't let their kid eat paint chips. But do they assume the risk that the paint in their house has lead in it, even if they didn't know about it, just because common sense says not to let your kids eat paint chips?

Bat makers are always trying to improve the hitting power of their bats. It's how they make their money. You don't think that if they're going to juice up their bats, they shouldn't be required to put some kind of warning on there? Should they be allowed to sell any kind of bat to any age level they want, regardless of the danger to children? If bat makers are souping up those bats without adequately warning the public of the dangers, then should they not be held accountable?

I don't know about banning aluminum bats. I think the argument is compelling that aluminum bats reduce the equipment costs of youth leagues across the country and it poses less danger of a kid getting hit by a broken bat. However, I think the bat makers have the technology to make a safer aluminum bat. If they don't make bats safer for youth leagues on their own, then the public needs some way to compel them to do so. The best way is to have the leagues require safer bats themselves. But a lawsuit to determine whether the bats are in fact safe for use is another way. All part of the system.

I think your argument in this case would be stronger if it were the parents who bought the bat that was used and they were told that using the bat in a youth game could pose risks. Maybe you don't have kids. I do and I know that, while I want my kids to go out and have fun and climb trees and play baseball and do other things that are fun but involve risk, I also want to know how much risk I'm exposing my kids to so that I can make an informed decision.

NJReds
05-19-2008, 09:46 AM
Pure speculation on my part, but with medical bills piling up this family may have gotten advice from a lawyer that recommended a blanket lawsuit that could result in a settlement that would allow them to pay for the care that their son requires.

A very strong temptation that would be very hard for a family in their shoes to pass up.

durl
05-19-2008, 10:32 AM
Pure speculation on my part, but with medical bills piling up this family may have gotten advice from a lawyer that recommended a blanket lawsuit that could result in a settlement that would allow them to pay for the care that their son requires.

A very strong temptation that would be very hard for a family in their shoes to pass up.

Basically, the lawyer says "let's throw around a bunch of lawsuits and see what sticks." And then he gets a VERY nice payday.

Boston Red
05-19-2008, 10:33 AM
. Its like suing Mcdonalds because your coffee you spilled on you was hot. Oh wait, that happened. Still, negligence shouldn't have to cover common sense.


Don't get me started on that. McDonalds must have the greatest PR machine in history if people still think they got a raw deal on that one.

RedlegJake
05-19-2008, 11:22 AM
Don't get me started on that. McDonalds must have the greatest PR machine in history if people still think they got a raw deal on that one.

Exactly. The facts in that case were much, much different than the McDonalds PR machine made them out to be.

Hoosier Red
05-19-2008, 11:30 AM
Its like suing Mcdonalds because your coffee you spilled on you was hot. Oh wait, that happened. Still, negligence shouldn't have to cover common sense.

Actually not to get all lawyerly.
But McDonalds was sued not because their coffee was hot, but because it was hot enough to cause third degree burns. They had been warned about it numerous times and had ignored the warnings, instead instructing all the restaurants to serve it at the scalding temperatures because it would stay hotter for people who brought their coffee to work.

But lets' not let facts get in the way of a good story.

smoke6
05-19-2008, 02:29 PM
The same thing could have happened if a wooden bat was used. It's tragic, but it happens.

Slyder
05-19-2008, 09:19 PM
I asked this once before and didnt get any responses.

Ive not played Little League baseball in a few years but as a soccer ref, Ive seen where players get hurt the league insurance basically covers the medical cost. In this case isnt it the responsibility of Little League Baseball insurance provider to cover the cost of the kids medical bills since it occured while playing Little League Baseball?

Anyone with a kid playing baseball now able to look and see the policy for injuries and insurance? I thought that was part of the entry fee in any league like this.

SandyD
05-19-2008, 10:01 PM
I looked it up ... there is an "excess" policy, but it is subject to an unspecified limit.

Which means it kicks in only after existing coverage has been exhausted. And, I'm sure this child's injury would exceed whatever limits the little league policy has.

hebroncougar
05-20-2008, 10:41 AM
Amazing...............why don't they sue the coach? Shouldn't the coach have some responsiblity in not teaching the kid to be ready for a hot shot right back at him??..........................oh wait, it's his dad.

Boston Red
05-20-2008, 11:02 AM
I don't think this was actually a Little League sanctioned game, so the Little League insurance would not apply. As I understand it, the kid's league followed Little League rules for bats, etc., so they are suint Little League because (they are a deep pocket) if Little League had changed its rules on bats, the kid's league would have followed suit.

Chip R
05-20-2008, 11:20 AM
Taking this topic on somewhat of a tangent but it seems to me that kids used to get along just fine with wood bats and people were much less affluent then.

princeton
05-20-2008, 11:20 AM
I pitch BP against 11 year olds with their -10 and -12s -- scares the pants off me. my reflexes aren't what they used to be. I don't throw the ball down the middle anymore.

one of 'em skulled an opposing pitcher a couple of weeks ago. He was lucky; it was a glancing blow.

the bats are a problem. if this lawsuit effects change-- and it wouldn't be hard to restrict the bats -- then I'm all for it.

parents are spending $300 and more on their bats. Kids are carrying three bats in their bags. Broken wood won't bankrupt those parents; restrictions on metal at -3 is another route to take.

smoke6
05-20-2008, 11:22 AM
Wood bats, FTW.

pahster
05-20-2008, 11:47 AM
Why not just manufacture deadened aluminum bats? It should be possible to make an aluminum bat that simulates wooden ones. Seems like it'd be cost effective safer.

Chip R
05-20-2008, 12:05 PM
Why not just manufacture deadened aluminum bats? It should be possible to make an aluminum bat that simulates wooden ones. Seems like it'd be cost effective safer.


Defeats the purpose. Instead of having a good pitch break the bat, the ball goes down the line for a double. As princeton said, families are spending big money on aluminum bats. Buying a few wood ones isn't going to send them to the poor house.

princeton
05-20-2008, 12:21 PM
Defeats the purpose. Instead of having a good pitch break the bat, the ball goes down the line for a double. As princeton said, families are spending big money on aluminum bats. Buying a few wood ones isn't going to send them to the poor house.

another way is to have both teams put all of their bats out, and any kid from either team can use any bat.

those $300 bats would immediately disappear from games.

a couple of times I have caught an opponent using an illegal (large barrel) bat. Those bats are illegal because they're even more dangerous, although they become legal when the mound moves back 5 feet. The parents knew, of course-- they bought the kid the bat and encouraged him to use it, I have no doubt. Those kids have to be kicked out of baseball for a season. Instead, there's no real penalty. I could have waited until the kid got a hit, then tried to get him declared out like he's George Brett and I'm Billy Martin. But really, that's not enough, and I had to protect my infielders. So I challenged the bat before he hit.

pahster
05-20-2008, 12:29 PM
Defeats the purpose. Instead of having a good pitch break the bat, the ball goes down the line for a double. As princeton said, families are spending big money on aluminum bats. Buying a few wood ones isn't going to send them to the poor house.

Could the manufacturer not just decrease the area of the sweet spot and deaden the areas of the bat that would, were it made of wood, cause a break or a weakly hit ball? I don't really have a good idea of how aluminum bats are made, for all I know this is impossible. It's probably unrealistic; no one will buy those kinds of bats unless they're required by leagues.

Chip R
05-20-2008, 12:31 PM
Could the manufacturer not just decrease the area of the sweet spot and deaden the areas of the bat that would, were it made of wood, cause a break or a weakly hit ball? I don't really have a good idea of how aluminum bats are made, for all I know this is impossible. It's probably unrealistic; no one will buy those kinds of bats unless they're required by leagues.


Well, if you're going to get an aluminum bat and pay $200-300 for it, you really don't want it to break. Might as well just use a wood bat if you're going to do that.

pahster
05-20-2008, 12:33 PM
Well, if you're going to get an aluminum bat and pay $200-300 for it, you really don't want it to break. Might as well just use a wood bat if you're going to do that.

Oh, I didn't mean it should break, merely that a ball hit off the handle shouldn't come off the bat with virtually the same speed as it would off the barrel.

princeton
05-20-2008, 12:40 PM
Could the manufacturer not just decrease the area of the sweet spot and deaden the areas of the bat that would, were it made of wood, cause a break or a weakly hit ball? I don't really have a good idea of how aluminum bats are made, for all I know this is impossible. It's probably unrealistic; no one will buy those kinds of bats unless they're required by leagues.

smaller sweet spots can be engineered.

but it's not where the market's going. It's going the other direction, of course. Big, big sweet spots. Parents want their kids to hit the ball far, and they'll pay a lot for that.

ComBats were hot last summer. I was watching the LLWS and the Taiwanese team was using another type of bat in an early round, but saw the velocity on the ComBats and the next day every kid in the Taiwan dugout had a ComBat. Every kid on the other team had one too. Heck, my team must have 9 ComBats, including two of this year's model. It's early though-- we'll have 5 or 6 more within a month.

it's why legislation is needed. but even in NJ, legislation is dead. NJ teams don't want to be forced to use one type of bat in state games, but have to buy livelier bats to use in games in which we travel out of state.

Failing legislation, court action might help.

and if an insurance company has to make a huge payout, that might help, too. If a team can't get insurance without bat legislation, then I guarantee that there WILL be change

Dom Heffner
05-20-2008, 12:52 PM
Its like suing Mcdonalds because your coffee you spilled on you was hot. Oh wait, that happened. Still, negligence shouldn't have to cover common sense.


When I read things like this, I know you haven't spent one minute of your time studying the McDonald's case. Not one.

Because had you done so, you'd know that McDonald's got off easy.

Perhaps they should serve it at 600 degrees. Oh wait, that's not necessary. And neither is serving it at a temperature close enough to boiling, where if you accidentally spill it on your midsection you mutilate your genitals.

But I guess those evil customers who make McDonald's millions of dollars should know not to accidentally spill things on themselves, even when the company they bought the coffee from had been warned about it being hot enough to cause physical damage to someone several times.

And then we as consumers have to trust the 16 year old naive kids to put the lid on the right way as well. If they don't, then oh well, it's just your genitals. Who needs those?

If it were your genitals that got burned, I guess you would just hit your own head and say, "silly me, I know better than to accidentally spill coffee on myself."

What should be making people more angry than "frivolus lawsuits" is the people who use lawsuits that aren't frivolous as examples of why we should not have frivolous lawsuits.

And George- you are one of my favorite posters, you know that- but why no posts about the thousands of frivolous lawsuits that corporations file against each other every year?

Why do we pick on the parent's of an injured child?

Can you imagine this happening to your own child?

The truth is, we are all being lied to about the lawsuit crisis in this country, and it's really a shame, because most of it happens at the corporate level, and not private citizens.

dougdirt
05-20-2008, 12:53 PM
Defeats the purpose. Instead of having a good pitch break the bat, the ball goes down the line for a double. As princeton said, families are spending big money on aluminum bats. Buying a few wood ones isn't going to send them to the poor house.

No, but a few wood ones implies that the bat breaks and could theoretically stab an opposing player. Metal bats that play like wooden bats will not do that at all. Its a safety issue.

dougdirt
05-20-2008, 12:56 PM
When I read things like this, I know you haven't spent one minute of your time studying the McDonald's case. not one.

Because had you done so, you'd know that McDonald's got off easy.

its an example. There are ridiculous lawsuits every day. That specific one jumped to mind right away. I used it. Either way, my point still stands. Ignorance shouldn't be a legit reason to sue. Given that the kids dad was the coach, I don't even think ignorance is even in play here. He knew (or really should have known and just wasn't very bright) these bats were capable of producing a line drive hard enough to hurt someone.

Falls City Beer
05-20-2008, 01:02 PM
its an example. There are ridiculous lawsuits every day. That specific one jumped to mind right away. I used it. Either way, my point still stands. Ignorance shouldn't be a legit reason to sue. Given that the kids dad was the coach, I don't even think ignorance is even in play here. He knew (or really should have known and just wasn't very bright) these bats were capable of producing a line drive hard enough to hurt someone.

You'd be surprised how few seemingly legitimate cases actually make it in front of a judge or jury. And you'd be stunned at how few "ridiculous lawsuits" ever see the light of day.

Someone's sold you a bill of goods on the legal profession.

919191
05-20-2008, 01:28 PM
I wonder if the bat was a sanctioned Little league bat.

OldRightHander
05-20-2008, 03:51 PM
We had a thread along these lines a few years ago. At the time I did some digging and found a company that's making bats out of some composite that is supposed to mimic the performance of wood.

BRM
05-20-2008, 03:53 PM
I wonder if the bat was a sanctioned Little league bat.

Does Little League supply a list of "approved" bats each year?

dabvu2498
05-20-2008, 03:56 PM
Does Little League supply a list of "approved" bats each year?

http://www.littleleague.org/media/nonwoodbatsfacts.asp

I believe manufacturers stamp their bats with a symbol showing that they meet Little League standards and umpires are supposed to check all bats in the dugout prior to each game.

I know that's how the NFHS does it.

BRM
05-20-2008, 04:00 PM
Here's an interesting blurb from that link, Dab.



But Little League International does not accept the premise that the game will be safer if played exclusively with wood, simply because there are no facts none at all to support that premise.

As a result, any individual or league choosing a wood-only option must understand that the choice is not being made because of any factual data or scientific information.

dabvu2498
05-20-2008, 04:07 PM
Here's an interesting blurb from that link, Dab.

Also...


In 2002, the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission reviewed this issue thoroughly and resolved that there was inconclusive data to support such a ban of non-wood bats from use in high school and youth baseball.

dougdirt
05-20-2008, 04:09 PM
You'd be surprised how few seemingly legitimate cases actually make it in front of a judge or jury. And you'd be stunned at how few "ridiculous lawsuits" ever see the light of day.

Someone's sold you a bill of goods on the legal profession.

One that wins is different than one thats filed. If this one wins, and I would really hope it doesn't (I feel for the family, I really do.... but this is one of those things that happen where it just did, not because someone was at fault), I would be surprised.

BRM
05-20-2008, 04:09 PM
Some pretty good stuff at that link. It also states that the BPF for a very good wood bat is 1.15, which is the maximum BPF a nonwood bat is allowed to have for Little League.

*BaseClogger*
05-20-2008, 04:14 PM
The league around here requires 13 and 14 year-olds to use BESR regulation bats, which are -3...

919191
05-21-2008, 12:23 AM
http://www.littleleague.org/media/nonwoodbatsfacts.asp

I believe manufacturers stamp their bats with a symbol showing that they meet Little League standards and umpires are supposed to check all bats in the dugout prior to each game.

I know that's how the NFHS does it.

Any bat approved for LL has that stamped on it.


One of my kids is in a machine pitch league ages 6-8. One of the kids had a bat tonight that wasn't LL approved. it was for bigger kids. It slipped by. I blame myself, as I was the dugout coach. Checking them was on my mind before the game, largely due to this thread, bu the chaos that 12 kids that age caused it to slip my mind. I;ll do better next time.

George Foster
05-21-2008, 12:40 AM
We had a thread along these lines a few years ago. At the time I did some digging and found a company that's making bats out of some composite that is supposed to mimic the performance of wood.

My kid has one of these bats for t-ball. It's is glorified PVC pipe. Very light.

princeton
05-21-2008, 09:32 AM
The league around here requires 13 and 14 year-olds to use BESR regulation bats, which are -3...

-3 is not a BESR number. It's just weight in ounces minus length in inches.

BESR is ball exit speed ratio, as determined from a lab test. It measures speed of the batted ball relative to an inertial measure for the bat. The -3 number that you talk about affects the inertia, but so do other things-- presumably material, barrel size/shape, balance, etc. my understanding is that if a bat does too well in this measurement, it is rejected. But there are probably some really hot bats out there that are not BESR approved, and if a kid gets hurt then the bat needs to be examined and the parents could be liable. I've never known a kid without type A parents using an illegal bat; I've known plenty of the converse. I check the bats in the dugout but it wouldn't surprise me if there are illegal bats on the opposing team. Unlike big barreled bats, I can't pick out the ones that aren't BESR approved from a distance.

in my opinion, BESR threshold needs to be lowered for bats used in youth baseball games. And kids using illegal bats need to be suspended, even though it's probably the parents' doing.

More cheating happens at the highest level of competition, and I haven't let a couple of 11 year old kids pitch against top competition this year. They don't look ready to defend after they deliver the ball, and the ball is coming back much faster. I will allow if the kid wears a helmet with a facemask or if he can fix his followthrough to my satisfaction.