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View Full Version : Should KGJ be traded ASAP?



WMR
05-18-2008, 10:38 AM
Assuming that he CAN be moved, do you believe he should be moved to a different team ASAP?

GAC
05-18-2008, 10:41 AM
Sorry WMR, not trying to be divisive.... but they need to trade, release, or walk out into RF and do an "Eight Belles" on the guy just to end these countless threads on the subject. :lol:

WMR
05-18-2008, 10:43 AM
Sorry WMR, not trying to be divisive.... but they need to trade, release, or walk out into RF and do an "Eight Belles" on the guy just to end these countless threads on the subject. :lol:

So is that a "Yes" or a "No"??

:p: ;)

WMR
05-18-2008, 10:44 AM
I just know there's some folks very vocal on the subject, I'm just curious to see how widespread that thought process concerning Junior truly is.

GAC
05-18-2008, 10:50 AM
So is that a "Yes" or a "No"??

:p: ;)

There probably isn't a person on this forum, me included, who would vote "No".

But it doesn't matter what the fans say, or even this FO. Jr has the final word (vote).

Put yourself in the place of any GM who is on a contending team on Jr's list. Would you try to acquire this guy? Why?

He's a novelty in his quest for the elusive #600. After that? Blah.

P.S. - I voted yes while rubbing my lucky rabbit's foot, just for the sake of the poll. ;)

WMR
05-18-2008, 10:54 AM
There probably isn't a person on this forum, me included, who would vote "No".

But it doesn't matter what the fans say, or even this FO. Jr has the final word (vote).

Put yourself in the place of any GM who is on a contending team on Jr's list. Would you try to acquire this guy? Why?

He's a novelty in his quest for the elusive #600. After that? Blah.

Well, we just had a thread where people are saying that they "can't let go." I don't think it's quite as cut and dry as you posit.

I was approaching it from the standpoint that Junior WOULD accept a move (which I believe that he would). The only thing missing from his HoF resume is a WS ring. His salary is a sunk cost at this point... even if the Reds had to agree to pay a portion of his $4 million dollar buyout, it'd still be addition by subtraction, IMO.

Could a team primed for a deep playoff run use a DH/platoon bat with the KGJ pedigree that they could likely acquire for next to nothing? I believe so. It's going to take some invention on the part of all parties involved, but it can get done.

GAC
05-18-2008, 11:17 AM
I was approaching it from the standpoint that Junior WOULD accept a move (which I believe that he would). The only thing missing from his HoF resume is a WS ring. His salary is a sunk cost at this point... even if the Reds had to agree to pay a portion of his $4 million dollar buyout, it'd still be addition by subtraction, IMO.

Could a team primed for a deep playoff run use a DH/platoon bat with the KGJ pedigree that they could likely acquire for next to nothing? I believe so. It's going to take some invention on the part of all parties involved, but it can get done.

At this early stage of the season though, there is no way to say WHO is primed for the post-season? And more importantly.... do those teams want, or even need, the likes of a Ken Griffey Jr who is a shadow of his former self?

If, as many say, he is "killing us", then why in the world would anyone want to take that on themselves? What's the benefit if the guy can't play the field, run the bases, and is OPSing in the low 700's?

Pedigree means nothing in MLB. It's only good if you're going to put a leash on him and show him.

He's been in decline due to age and injury. Is not producing here. Yet you say he could elsewhere?

You're playing the role of the used car salesman. And while I'm walking around your lot you're trying to sell, or pawn off on me, that AMC Gremlin sitting in the back lot that nobody in their right mind, regardless of the price, would even consider. ;)

WMR
05-18-2008, 11:18 AM
:lol:

GAC
05-18-2008, 11:20 AM
OK. We've gotten two yes votes.

I didn't know Baker and Jocketty could vote on here! :lol:

*BaseClogger*
05-18-2008, 11:20 AM
move him ASAP while the allure of home run #600 adds to his value!

Unassisted
05-18-2008, 11:21 AM
The problem is not just making the trade, it's the return on the trade or more precisely, the cost of the trade. It's clear the Reds will have to send cash with the trade to make it palatable, but will they also have to send prospects to make it sweet enough for a trade partner to bite? I don't want a deal that fixes today's problem but creates more problems tomorrow by depleting the farm system.

Those of us who want a trade are not going to have our cake and eat it, too. I just don't want to see us get our cake and find out it gives us a case of food poisoning that lasts into the next decade.

In other words, I want a "Yes, but..." choice. ;)

GAC
05-18-2008, 11:22 AM
move him ASAP while the allure of home run #600 adds to his value!

What allure? Would you, if you were a contending team's GM, fall for that?

I don't see how chasing #600 adds to his value?

It's almost painful watching him attempt it.

*BaseClogger*
05-18-2008, 11:23 AM
What allure? Would you, if you were a contending team's GM, fall for that?

I don't see how chasing #600 adds to his value?

It's almost painful watching him attempt it.

does he have to be traded to a contender?

Unassisted
05-18-2008, 11:24 AM
does he have to be traded to a contender?That's what he says he wants. And he has veto power over any deal.

coachw513
05-18-2008, 11:24 AM
There probably isn't a person on this forum, me included, who would vote "No".


Well, I voted no...to say we need to trade him right now assumes we can't be just as well served with Bruce being called up, playing in CF against RH and in RF against LH, with Freel getting the starts against lefties in center...Patterson is a late-game defensive specialist and we get better immediately...

I'd rather see Griffey re-cast appropriately (part-time starter against RH pitching, big PH bat off bench, fan attraction, batting 6th/7th) than traded for pennies on the dollar...I just don't see a trade netting anything of worth...

The issue is much less Griffey as it is THE USE OF GRIFFEY and THE LACK OF BRUCE...if Dusty/Walt, et al would simply allow this to play out gracefully as I and others have suggested, this wouldn't be nearly as painful and would be MUCH better for this club...

IMHO...

*BaseClogger*
05-18-2008, 11:26 AM
That's what he says he wants. And he has veto power over any deal.

Then tell him if he vetoes the trade he will be replacing Hatteberg as the #1 LH pinch hitter while watching the Incredible Bruce from the bench...

GAC
05-18-2008, 11:31 AM
The problem is not just making the trade, it's the return on the trade or more precisely, the cost of the trade. It's clear the Reds will have to send cash with the trade to make it palatable, but will they also have to send prospects to make it sweet enough for a trade partner to bite? I don't want a deal that fixes today's problem but createa more problems tomorrow by depleting the farm system.

I hope this FO would never even consider such a thing just to rid themselves of 4 months of Jr, i.e. offer prospects in the deal just to get someone to take him.

If this FO feels like many of the fans do - that he is killing us - then bring up Bruce and lay the law down with Jr in a private meeting that this is the way it's gonna be for the remainder of the season.... priming his heir apparent while "riding out the storm" for the next 4 months.

And if Jr tries to make trouble over that decision, refuses to face reality and acts selfishly, then you can then use that as PR "ammo" to just out-an-out release him. It then makes him look bad, not this FO.

The guy has done a lot for the game of baseball. Allow him the opportunity to bow out gracefully. But if he fights that, then........

GAC
05-18-2008, 11:35 AM
Then tell him if he vetoes the trade he will be replacing Hatteberg as the #1 LH pinch hitter while watching the Incredible Bruce from the bench...

Hatte is doing so while watching his heir apparent (Votto).

Unassisted
05-18-2008, 12:25 PM
Then tell him if he vetoes the trade he will be replacing Hatteberg as the #1 LH pinch hitter while watching the Incredible Bruce from the bench...Good luck convincing his manager to implement that plan. I'm not convinced Bob Castellini would be supportive of it, either. Not yet anyway.

Chip R
05-18-2008, 12:54 PM
Good luck convincing his manager to implement that plan. I'm not convinced Bob Castellini would be supportive of it, either. Not yet anyway.


In Dustyworld, things aren't as cut and dried as we believe they should be. Does it make sense to have Corey Patterson lead off? Or to have Dunn hit 7th? Or to have a young pitcher throw 118 pitches when he has a big lead? In this case, does it make sense to have a veteran player who has very limited range who seems to have lost his power playing RF every day? But Dusty's the manager and as long as he's the manager, that's the way it's going to be.

Remember Jr. has to approve a trade. Look at it from his perspective. He's playing in the field every day. Let's say an AL team is interested in him. You think they are going to let him play RF every day? If he plays the OF his best shot is going to be LF - where he has hardly ever played. If he isn't in the field he's going to DH and he has expressed his dislike for that. So why not just stay here where the manager is going to play him in RF every day?

mth123
05-18-2008, 12:57 PM
Assuming that he CAN be moved, do you believe he should be moved to a different team ASAP?

yes. Yes. Yes! Yes!!! Yes!!!!Yes!!!!!!

Clear enough?

klw
05-18-2008, 01:50 PM
I voted no as I think he value is pretty depressed right now due to the power slump he is in. I think he will work out of this over the next couple of weeks and his value will be higher as we approach the trading deadline. I think you move him in late june or July but if a trade is done "ASAP" it is done when his value is low. Wait a few weeks and there will likely be a better market for him.

membengal
05-18-2008, 01:57 PM
His value will never go up. It is what it is.

Trade him for whatever. The reason for doing the deal is to finally get Bruce where he belongs. In Cincy.

Sea Ray
05-18-2008, 03:14 PM
What allure? Would you, if you were a contending team's GM, fall for that?

I don't see how chasing #600 adds to his value?

It's almost painful watching him attempt it.

You stole my thunder. Who ever started this idea that 600 is a big draw? It certainly isn't here in Cincinnati. He's already a shoo-in for the Hall and it doesn't look like he'll ever challenge for Bonds' record so what's the big deal with 600?

Jocketty said in the paper this morning that no one has called him to express interest in dealing for Jr. There is no interest in him. Until that changes there's no sense in starting polls like this 'cause nothing's going to happen.

Kc61
05-18-2008, 03:24 PM
If they don't intend to trade Griff, at least they should sit him against lefties. This would give Griff some rest and maybe help get him out of this slump. He has a .529 OPS against left handed pitching.

Today is a perfect example. Hairston should be in right field today, with Griff resting.

Highlifeman21
05-18-2008, 04:27 PM
He should be traded ASAP immediately after Bruce isn't a Super Two.

KronoRed
05-18-2008, 04:59 PM
What's the rush? this team isn't a playoff team and he'll be gone soon enough.

membengal
05-18-2008, 05:37 PM
Really? Not a playoff team? Who knows?

What I do know is there chance to win more games and maybe be interesting come late August will be enhanced if Jay Bruce is on the field. There really isn't anyone who doubts that.

Jpup
05-18-2008, 05:37 PM
What's the rush? this team isn't a playoff team and he'll be gone soon enough.

If they keep playing out of their minds like this week, they will make the playoffs. They may never lose another game.;)

Jr. should be given to anyone that will take his contract. He is a very weak link in the ball club.

AmarilloRed
05-18-2008, 07:21 PM
His defense is hurting the team, and he isn't the hitter he once was. I think he will have better value before he hits #600, so I would trade him ASAP.

Falls City Beer
05-18-2008, 07:24 PM
I would have chosen "He should have been traded 5 years ago" if it had been an option.

red-in-la
05-18-2008, 07:27 PM
No fair FCB.....I would have voted never trade for him.

Jpup
05-18-2008, 07:47 PM
I would have chosen "He should have been traded 5 years ago" if it had been an option.

we agree, for once. :thumbup:

Reds/Flyers Fan
05-18-2008, 08:02 PM
What's the rush? this team isn't a playoff team and he'll be gone soon enough.


The same could have been said about the Rockies at this time last year. In fact, their record then was far worse than the Reds now.

And the Reds wont trade KGJ before 600... what would they do with that "Countdown to 600" monstrosity in right center field?

WMR
05-18-2008, 08:05 PM
The same could have been said about the Rockies at this time last year. In fact, their record then was far worse than the Reds now.

And the Reds wont trade KGJ before 600... what would they do with that "Countdown to 600" monstrosity in right center field?

Set it to 248 and announce the new 5 year contract for Adam Dunn with team options for years 6 & 7? :D

AtomicDumpling
05-18-2008, 10:43 PM
I voted "No" because I don't think jettisoning Griffey would make the Reds a better team.

We don't have to ditch Griffey in order to bring up Jay Bruce. When we promote Bruce we should demote the worst player on the team. Griffey is far from the worst player on the team. His best days are long gone, but he is still very capable of going on a hot streak. It never ceases to amaze me how quickly the fans will abandon a proven performer when he goes in a slump.

Just last year Griffey had an OPS of .869 and that is well above average in the major leagues. In May and June of last year Griffey was spectacular. He hit 20 homers those 2 months and was one of the best players in all of baseball. He also had an OPS of .992 in August. Now less than a year later you guys think he is toast and totally washed up. Its ridiculous.

If I were in charge I would trade Valentin, Freel or Patterson rather than Griffey. Bring up Jay Bruce and let him play almost every day along with Adam Dunn. Griffey and the remaining outfielders can rotate in right field and give Bruce and Dunn the occasional rest day. Imagine having the luxury of pinch-hitting Griffey in key late-game situations instead of Valentin. Nice.

When Griffey inevitably gets hot again then we would have an awesome offensive outfield of Dunn, Bruce and Griffey.

When (not if) Junior gets on another hot streak -- that is the time to field trade offers. Wait until he reassures the league that he can still be a powerful force before you even consider unloading him.

This season is not lost by any means. The Reds have proven they can beat anybody. The team has weathered a slow offensive start to the season. Let's see how they fare from here before we throw in the towel in May. I know we have a loser's mentality around here, but come on. I don't think any other team would give up this early. Teams like the Rockies and Athletics have proven beyond question in recent years that it is very much possible to recover from a bad start to make the playoffs.

guttle11
05-18-2008, 11:23 PM
I'm not sure Griffey is that far from being "worst on the team". What is his actual value at this point? I'd say he's above Valentin for sure, but really, I can't say that about any other player for sure. Patterson, while horrendous at the plate, provides value with defense and speed late in the game. Griffey does not.

I think it's time to start realizing that Griffey really isn't a good player anymore. I'd expect him to get hot at some point, but I have no confidence in it lasting more than a handful of games. He's 38 with bad tires...

I'd trade him first chance I got, because there's a better option available. I'm all about the front of the jersey, not the back at all.

OnBaseMachine
05-18-2008, 11:33 PM
He should be traded ASAP immediately after Bruce isn't a Super Two.

Agreed. I love the guy, he was my favorite player growing up but it's time to move on. His bad hasn't come around yet and his defense is beyond brutal now. I'll hate to see him leave but it's probably for the best.

AtomicDumpling
05-18-2008, 11:44 PM
I'm not sure Griffey is that far from being "worst on the team". What is his actual value at this point? I'd say he's above Valentin for sure, but really, I can't say that about any other player for sure. Patterson, while horrendous at the plate, provides value with defense and speed late in the game. Griffey does not.

I think it's time to start realizing that Griffey really isn't a good player anymore. I'd expect him to get hot at some point, but I have no confidence in it lasting more than a handful of games. He's 38 with bad tires...

I'd trade him first chance I got, because there's a better option available. I'm all about the front of the jersey, not the back at all.

There is no way Griffey is the team's worst player. I think someone has been listening to the bitter little pipsqueaks (Brennaman and Daugherty) way too often.

Just last year Griffey posted an OPS of .859 with 30 homers and 93 RBIs. That is a very good season. A poor start to this season does not erase his record of success. I don't think Griffey has completely collapsed just a few months after last years' success. He is just in a slump, and he will break out of it with a vengeance just like Dunn has. The Reds would look foolish to ditch Griffey just before he erupts with one of his classic bursts of hitting prowess.

There are players on the Reds that have never even sniffed a season like Griffey had just last year.

Compare Griffey's 2007 to the best seasons of some other Red's careers:

Griffey 2007 - .859 OPS - 30 HRs - 93 RBI - 78 Runs
Freel 2006 - .762 OPS - 8 HRs - 27 RBI - 67 Runs
Patterson 2004 - .771 OPS - 24 HRs - 72 RBI - 91 Runs
Valentin 2005 - .883 OPS - 14 HRs - 50 RBI - 36 Runs

You can clearly see Griffey even at this stage of his career is light years better than Freel, Patterson and Valentin. There is no disputing it. Getting rid of Griffey instead of one of those three bums would make the Reds a worse team than they are now. Patterson has been one of the major league's absolute worst starting outfielders his entire career. Keeping him over Griffey would be insane.

Griffey's poor start to this season is better than Patterson's career averages. Griffey in his deepest slump is equal to a normal Patterson.

membengal
05-19-2008, 12:39 AM
Atomic, he can barely move in RF. If the ball isn't right at him or a lazy fly ball, he simply can't get to it. It really is hurting this team.

AmarilloRed
05-19-2008, 12:52 AM
There is no way Griffey is the team's worst player. I think someone has been listening to the bitter little pipsqueaks (Brennaman and Daugherty) way too often.

Just last year Griffey posted an OPS of .859 with 30 homers and 93 RBIs. That is a very good season. A poor start to this season does not erase his record of success. I don't think Griffey has completely collapsed just a few months after last years' success. He is just in a slump, and he will break out of it with a vengeance just like Dunn has. The Reds would look foolish to ditch Griffey just before he erupts with one of his classic bursts of hitting prowess.

There are players on the Reds that have never even sniffed a season like Griffey had just last year.

Compare Griffey's 2007 to the best seasons of some other Red's careers:

Griffey 2007 - .859 OPS - 30 HRs - 93 RBI - 78 Runs
Freel 2006 - .762 OPS - 8 HRs - 27 RBI - 67 Runs
Patterson 2004 - .771 OPS - 24 HRs - 72 RBI - 91 Runs
Valentin 2005 - .883 OPS - 14 HRs - 50 RBI - 36 Runs

You can clearly see Griffey even at this stage of his career is light years better than Freel, Patterson and Valentin. There is no disputing it. Getting rid of Griffey instead of one of those three bums would make the Reds a worse team than they are now. Patterson has been one of the major league's absolute worst starting outfielders his entire career. Keeping him over Griffey would be insane.

Griffey's poor start to this season is better than Patterson's career averages. Griffey in his deepest slump is equal to a normal Patterson.

He is 38, 39 in November. It could be that last year will be his last year to post stats like that. I hope you are correct and he will bounce back offensively, but he looks like he is suffering a very rapid offensive and defensive decline.

WVPacman
05-19-2008, 12:56 AM
We can't take a risk and lose both JR and Dunn so I say trade him now and use the money to resign Dunn and his 40 hrs and 100 rbis that we need ojn this team.

AtomicDumpling
05-19-2008, 12:57 AM
Atomic, he can barely move in RF. If the ball isn't right at him or a lazy fly ball, he simply can't get to it. It really is hurting this team.

That is the exaggeration of the week. :rolleyes:

We have seen the Edwin Encarnacion bashers and the Adam Dunn haters have to eat their words (posts?) already this season. I guess some people never learn their lessons.

Griffey is not finished folks. He is merely in a slump like he was a couple of times last season. He also had a couple very hot stretches last season and ended up with solid numbers across the board. I predict the same will happen this year. He is no longer a superstar, but he can be a very good player for weeks at at time even now. There is no sense in throwing a proven veteran under the bus simply because some impatient fans are frustrated with the team's record.

I agree he shouldn't be playing every day and his fielding has degraded, but he is a solid contributor over the course of a season. He should be rested often. He should be used at DH in interleague games. He should play some first base. But he should not be casually discarded.

M2
05-19-2008, 12:58 AM
In the starting eight, who's worse than Jr.?

Only Patterson has a lower OPS, and only by 16 points (Freel has a higher OPS if you want to consider him the CF). On the plus side, Patterson can field and run circles around Jr.

So you're talking about the guy who is just about the worst hitter on the team AND the worst fielder on the team. From a completely dispassionate perspective Jr. has certainly been the worst player on the team this season. If you want to make the argument that Paul Bako will revert to form soon enough and wrest that worst player mantle from Jr.'s shoulders, fine, but I don't see where the Reds have the best player in the minors knocking at the door at Bako's position.

The argument for Jr. seems to be that if we wait around he might hit. Well, Jay Bruce might hit too, and he will field. Bruce could play CF and Jr. could stay in RF, but that doesn't do anything to fix what's been the most porous defense in MLB to date.

WVRedsFan
05-19-2008, 01:00 AM
I'm just sick of this whole thing and this whole subject coming up again and again. It's like a troll that won't go away. It's a constant conversation among some posters time and time again in game threads and on the board and wherever else you can possibly post.

GAC said it best but I'll add this:

1. He ain't going unless he wants to go. He doesn't now.

2. No team wants KGJ for what we want for him.

3. If we do get rid of him, we'll eat a lot of money (it's only money? Seems a certain former GM might disagree with that sentiment)

Surely to all that's holy, this conversation can stop soon.

M2
05-19-2008, 01:05 AM
I'm just sick of this whole thing and this whole subject coming up again and again. It's like a troll that won't go away. It's a constant conversation among some posters time and time again in game threads and on the board and wherever else you can possibly post.

GAC said it best but I'll add this:

1. He ain't going unless he wants to go. He doesn't now.

2. No team wants KGJ for what we want for him.

3. If we do get rid of him, we'll eat a lot of money (it's only money? Seems a certain former GM might disagree with that sentiment)

Surely to all that's holy, this conversation can stop soon.

As long as Jay Bruce is in the wings, it ain't going to stop.

As for your three points:

1. I think it's assuming a lot that Jr. isn't interested in playing somewhere else.

2. It's true that no other team may want Jr., that strikes me as the real roadblock. As for the what the Reds want for him, I imagine that's an exceedingly low price.

3. So what about the money. It's a sunk cost. If you can save the buyout next season that's a win.

AtomicDumpling
05-19-2008, 01:08 AM
In the starting eight, who's worse than Jr.?

Only Patterson has a lower OPS, and only by 16 points (Freel has a higher OPS if you want to consider him the CF). On the plus side, Patterson can field and run circles around Jr.

So you're talking about the guy who is just about the worst hitter on the team AND the worst fielder on the team. From a completely dispassionate perspective Jr. has certainly been the worst player on the team this season. If you want to make the argument that Paul Bako will revert to form soon enough and wrest that worst player mantle from Jr.'s shoulders, fine, but I don't see where the Reds have the best player in the minors knocking at the door at Bako's position.

The argument for Jr. seems to be that if we wait around he might hit. Well, Jay Bruce might hit too, and he will field. Bruce could play CF and Jr. could stay in RF, but that doesn't do anything to fix what's been the most porous defense in MLB to date.

Looks like you are also falling into the trap of looking only at small sample sizes and ignoring history.

You are comparing the worst slump of Griffey's life to Patterson's normal production. Patterson is not going to get any better than he is now. We have every reason to believe that Griffey will turn the corner and be a very solid hitter as usual.

You want Bruce playing every day. I want Bruce playing every day. We all want that to happen and it will very soon. That should have very little to do with Ken Griffey Jr.

The starting outfield should be Dunn, Bruce and Griffey with Freel filling in as needed. Patterson is not a good enough player to start in the major leagues.

Getting rid of Griffey right now would be a huge mistake. Wait until he heats up and has some trade value before fielding offers. Ditching him ASAP will just hurt the team. It will make impatient haters feel better for a few days, but the team will be worse.

Patrick Bateman
05-19-2008, 01:08 AM
Even if Griffey does rebound back towards last season's numbers, his defense still makes him a pretty marginal player. His defense is that bad, and his offense is not good enough anymore to make up for it.

Consider that he slumped badly in the last half of the season last year, in conjuction with his poor start this year, it's time to think that this may not be just a slump. It's a 39 year old without legs failing to hit. Impossible to blame Griffey, but his bat appears to be in pretty serious decline too. He's hit a few balls perfectly this year that don't go any further than the warning track. He's bound to start hitting better than this, but his previous norms are misleading.

WVRedsFan
05-19-2008, 01:12 AM
As long as Jay Bruce is in the wings, it ain't going to stop.

As for your three points:

1. I think it's assuming a lot that Jr. isn't interested in playing somewhere else.

2. It's true that no other team may want Jr., that strikes me as the real roadblock. As for the what the Reds want for him, I imagine that's an exceedingly low price.

3. So what about the money. It's a sunk cost. If you can save the buyout next season that's a win.
I agree with all three parts, but what about the deferred money (as if that means anything in this conversation anyway)? We owe Jr a lot of money and as long as he's productive (and I think he will be soon), I don't see any reason to get in a hurry.

Someone said in this or another thread who was more productive than Griffey. Very few. I also think that Jay Bruce may not be all that to begin with (he's a rookie which so many fail to understand), so any argument that the club would instantly become better with him in RF is really just reaching.

AtomicDumpling
05-19-2008, 01:16 AM
Consider that he slumped badly in the last half of the season last year, in conjuction with his poor start this year, it's time to think that this may not be just a slump.

He was fantastic most of the second half last year. He was bad in September when he hit .214 in only 17 games. But he was awesome in August as he hit .346 with a .992 OPS in 28 games. I wouldn't call that a bad slump.

Everybody wanted to throw Encarnacion and Dunn under the bus recently too. They recovered and so will Griffey.

Just move Junior out of the third spot in the lineup. Move him down and give him more frequent rest. Substitute for him defensively in the late innings. Wait for his bat to heat up and enjoy the ride.

REDREAD
05-19-2008, 01:20 AM
Then tell him if he vetoes the trade he will be replacing Hatteberg as the #1 LH pinch hitter while watching the Incredible Bruce from the bench...

People propose solutions like that all the time.

Problem is that word gets out that the Reds treat guys like Jr that way, and then you never get another FA that wants to come here again.

If you really want to get rid of Jr, you ask him who he will accept a trade to, and then offer to pick up his entire salary to give him to that team.
In other words, you can't expect a Jr trade to save any money.. Trying to engineer a trade just to save part of the 4 million buyout is not worth it..

The Reds are going nowhere this year (even on the heels of this winning streak, that is obvious).. The Reds ought to just let Jr finish out this season in dignity. I don't want to risk another bad PR fallout.. Bruce can play CF if he's ready.

REDREAD
05-19-2008, 01:24 AM
His defense is hurting the team, and he isn't the hitter he once was. .

The same could be said of every hitter on this team, other than perhaps Votto (probably the only one exceeding expectations this season)..

HR 600 just isn't a big draw. Fans are numbed to HR milestones because we've had so many in the last few years.

In all honesty, how much extra revenue is the #600 chase going to bring in? Not much, I bet. Not enough to help his marketability..

WVRedsFan
05-19-2008, 01:25 AM
Looks like you are also falling into the trap of looking only at small sample sizes and ignoring history.

You are comparing the worst slump of Griffey's life to Patterson's normal production. Patterson is not going to get any better than he is now. We have every reason to believe that Griffey will turn the corner and be a very solid hitter as usual.

You want Bruce playing every day. I want Bruce playing every day. We all want that to happen and it will very soon. That should have very little to do with Ken Griffey Jr.

The starting outfield should be Dunn, Bruce and Griffey with Freel filling in as needed. Patterson is not a good enough player to start in the major leagues.

Getting rid of Griffey right now would be a huge mistake. Wait until he heats up and has some trade value before fielding offers. Ditching him ASAP will just hurt the team. It will make impatient haters feel better for a few days, but the team will be worse.

A voice of reason in a sea of hysteria. Defense Schmefense. One play by Ryan Freel (who's 7 years younger and has no injuries to his body) can be as devastating as Griffey's deliberate and some say slow manner and yet Freel is a "sparkplug" and gets all our love. But, then again, I'm in the minority.

Patrick Bateman
05-19-2008, 01:27 AM
He was fantastic most of the second half last year. He was bad in September when he hit .214 in only 17 games. But he was awesome in August as he hit .346 with a .992 OPS in 28 games. I wouldn't call that a bad slump.

He had an OPS of .761 OPS in the seond half of last year in 241 at-bats. At his age, and his injury battles, that is not something to just gloss over. Now he's had 150 at-bats of .706 OPS. I wouldn't call that a slump either. It's called decline, and it's more than likely that he has a new norm now.


Everybody wanted to throw Encarnacion and Dunn under the bus recently too. They recovered and so will Griffey.

It's different when those guys are under 30 years old and in prime type years. Griffey is old, slow, and should predictably be getting worse. Your acting as if most players keep their abilities into their mid 40's.

M2
05-19-2008, 01:31 AM
Looks like you are also falling into the trap of looking only at small sample sizes and ignoring history.

I'm looking at an older player whose defense has been atrocious for years and whose bat clearly isn't what it used to be. I'm using large sample sizes and I'm completely history cognizant.

Like I said, maybe Jr.'s bat will come around, but his glove won't, ever. The Reds are dead last in DER at the moment. Bruce could help fix that and he could hit every bit as well as we hope Jr. will (maybe not, but Bruce would probably be the odds-on favorite to hit better at this juncture).

FWIW, I think with a change of scenery and put in the right situation, Jr. could help another team. The Reds just aren't that team and haven't been for a long time.


You are comparing the worst slump of Griffey's life to Patterson's normal production. Patterson is not going to get any better than he is now. We have every reason to believe that Griffey will turn the corner and be a very solid hitter as usual.

Patterson has hit better too. And we don't have every reason to believe Jr.'s going to hit, at least consistently. He's become a much streakier hitter in recent years. In 8 of the last 14 months he's played, he's posted a sub-.800 OPS. Feel free to toss out Sept./Oct. 2006 for small sample size, but that's still 7 of 13 in the not-so-good category.


You want Bruce playing every day. I want Bruce playing every day. We all want that to happen and it will very soon. That should have very little to do with Ken Griffey Jr.

I want defense too and that's got a lot to do with Jr.


The starting outfield should be Dunn, Bruce and Griffey with Freel filling in as needed. Patterson is not a good enough player to start in the major leagues.

Patterson catches the ball on a team that doesn't catch nearly enough balls.


Getting rid of Griffey right now would be a huge mistake. Wait until he heats up and has some trade value before fielding offers. Ditching him ASAP will just hurt the team. It will make impatient haters feel better for a few days, but the team will be worse.

Jr.'s ability to fetch something in trade isn't going to revolve around him getting hot. Other teams are familiar with his work. I doubt there's many fence sitters when it comes to wanting him.

As for what he can fetch the Reds, that's really going to depend on Jocketty's ability to pick a sleeper. Don't expect an obvious winner in return.

kaldaniels
05-19-2008, 01:39 AM
People propose solutions like that all the time.

Problem is that word gets out that the Reds treat guys like Jr that way, and then you never get another FA that wants to come here again.

If you really want to get rid of Jr, you ask him who he will accept a trade to, and then offer to pick up his entire salary to give him to that team.
In other words, you can't expect a Jr trade to save any money.. Trying to engineer a trade just to save part of the 4 million buyout is not worth it..

The Reds are going nowhere this year (even on the heels of this winning streak, that is obvious).. The Reds ought to just let Jr finish out this season in dignity. I don't want to risk another bad PR fallout.. Bruce can play CF if he's ready.

I agree that you work with Jr. to end this madness. However if he is disagreeable you don't let the scare of future free agents enter the equation. Free Agency is easily 75 percent about the dollars...they will come. Don't let Griffey handcuff this team is my basic point.

WVPacman
05-19-2008, 01:40 AM
Looks like you are also falling into the trap of looking only at small sample sizes and ignoring history.

You are comparing the worst slump of Griffey's life to Patterson's normal production. Patterson is not going to get any better than he is now. We have every reason to believe that Griffey will turn the corner and be a very solid hitter as usual.

You want Bruce playing every day. I want Bruce playing every day. We all want that to happen and it will very soon. That should have very little to do with Ken Griffey Jr.

The starting outfield should be Dunn, Bruce and Griffey with Freel filling in as needed. Patterson is not a good enough player to start in the major leagues.

Getting rid of Griffey right now would be a huge mistake. Wait until he heats up and has some trade value before fielding offers. Ditching him ASAP will just hurt the team. It will make impatient haters feel better for a few days, but the team will be worse.


Dude the guy isn't going to get any better he is on the verge of being DONE!!!!! He has'nt hardly done anything to help us win during this winning streak and I feel it would help us the most if we trade him and find a way to save that money that he would get if he stays next year.Keep that money and sign the players that will help this team in the future.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing againist Griffey but the truth is that he is almost done and we are seeing his downfall this season.He isn't going to get out of any slump b/c he isn't in one.His career is almost done and the baseball fans might as well realise the fact that he will retire soon.

M2
05-19-2008, 01:47 AM
A voice of reason in a sea of hysteria.

Hysteria? Honestly, Jr.'s been a square peg on this team for years. Great guy, deserves nothing but respect. Yet acknowledging that it's time for the Reds to move onto something different is nothing new or hysterical. A parting of the ways would probably be the best thing for all parties involved.

AtomicDumpling
05-19-2008, 01:49 AM
Dude the guy isn't going to get any better he is on the verge of being DONE!!!!! He has'nt hardly done anything to help us win during this winning streak and I feel it would help us the most if we trade him and find a way to save that money that he would get if he stays next year.Keep that money and sign the players that will help this team in the future.

Don't get me wrong I have nothing againist Griffey but the truth is that he is almost done and we are seeing his downfall this season.He isn't going to get out of any slump b/c he isn't in one.His career is almost done and the baseball fans might as well realise the fact that he will retire soon.

It will be fun to look back at posts like this once Griffey goes on a tear. I have been enjoying similar posts regarding EE and Dunn lately.

Screw the 30 homers and 93 RBIs from last year. The guy just fell off a cliff one day and completely lost the sweet swing that granted him 20 years of superstardom. Yeah right.

It would be much better to have Patterson. Every team in the league could have signed him until spring training for virtually nothing, but only the Reds were dumb enough. But we would rather have him than a guy that hit 30 homers, 93 RBI with an .859 OPS. Patterson has never reached any of those numbers in any season of his career.

WVPacman
05-19-2008, 02:03 AM
It will be fun to look back at posts like this once Griffey goes on a tear. I have been enjoying similar posts regarding EE and Dunn lately.

Screw the 30 homers and 93 RBIs from last year. The guy just fell off a cliff one day and completely lost the sweet swing that granted him 20 years of superstardom. Yeah right.

It would be much better to have Patterson. Every team in the league could have signed him until spring training for virtually nothing, but only the Reds were dumb enough. But we would rather have him than a guy that hit 30 homers, 93 RBI with an .859 OPS. Patterson has never reached any of those numbers in any season of his career.


Hey listen man there is no need to get all bent out of shape b/c almost everybody wants Griffey gone.We respect your opinion and we all hope you respect ours.This is a messege board were people can say whats on their minds and everybody respects others opinions.

SteelSD
05-19-2008, 02:04 AM
Hysteria? Honestly, Jr.'s been a square peg on this team for years. Great guy, deserves nothing but respect. Yet acknowledging that it's time for the Reds to move onto to something is nothing new or hysterical. A parting of the ways would probably be the best thing for all parties involved.

Absolutely. When the Reds dealt for him, he was 30 years old. Now, he's 38, has been through a run of awful injuries, and looks like he's fallen off a cliff offensively. Should he still be 30 years old, we could likely hold out reasonable hope for an offensive resurgence. But he's 38. He's a future Hall of Fame Center Fielder who's staved off time long enough. But he can't play defense and he might not ever hit again considering his age. Get the guy to someone who wants him and, hopefully, to a team that doesn't completely rely on him to win a Wold Series title.

And gosh, how I would love to see Ken Griffey Junior hold up a WS trophy.

WVPacman
05-19-2008, 02:08 AM
Absolutely. When the Reds dealt for him, he was 30 years old. Now, he's 38, has been through a run of awful injuries, and looks like he's fallen off a cliff offensively. Should he still be 30 years old, we could likely hold out reasonable hope for an offensive resurgence. But he's 38. He's a future Hall of Fame Center Fielder who's staved off time long enough. But he can't play defense and he might not ever hit again considering his age. Get the guy to someone who wants him and, hopefully, to a team that doesn't completely rely on him to win a Wold Series title.

And gosh, how I would love to see Ken Griffey Junior hold up a WS trophy.

Exactly great post from you and M2.

AtomicDumpling
05-19-2008, 02:14 AM
Hey listen man there is no need to get all bent out of shape b/c almost everybody wants Griffey gone.We respect your opinion and we all hope you respect ours.This is a messege board were people can say whats on their minds and everybody respects others opinions.

Maybe I was a little hard on you, if so I apologize.

I think your post was a little hard on me too, what with the "Dude" and all the exclamation points.

I just find it hard to believe how fast people will turn on a proven, veteran run producer like Griffey.

AmarilloRed
05-19-2008, 02:32 AM
Maybe I was a little hard on you, if so I apologize.

I think your post was a little hard on me too, what with the "Dude" and all the exclamation points.

I just find it hard to believe how fast people will turn on a proven, veteran run producer like Griffey.

He has been a run producer(despite the injuries) for a long period of time, but there is genuine concern he will never do that well again because of his age. It only seems prudent to see what we could possibly acquire for Jr. in a trade. He may get 30 HR and 90 RBI again this year, but the odds are against it.

M2
05-19-2008, 02:35 AM
I just find it hard to believe how fast people will turn on a proven, veteran run producer like Griffey.

A) People have been making the case around here for years that Jr. isn't a particularly good fit on the Reds.

B) Jr.'s OPS+ the past 3 years: 99, 119, 83. While I'm sure he can hit better than he has this season, we are not talking about a dominant hitter here. He certainly doesn't hit enough to justify his glove on this team. On another team lacking LH power and with good overall defense he'd make sense. That's not the Reds.

C) Suggesting that it's time for the Reds to do what is in their, and possibly Jr.'s, best interest isn't turning on a guy. In fact, if you've been reading what people have been writing about this situation, a big factor for people on this board has been that they feel Jr. deserves to go out with more dignity than the Reds are going to be able to afford him as this season wears on. I'll submit that's the opposite of turning on a guy.

AtomicDumpling
05-19-2008, 03:35 AM
I don't disagree about the Reds fielding offers for Griffey, of course they should do that -- for him and all players really. If someone is willing to give up something that helps us out more than Griffey does then we should take it.

What I have argued against in this thread is the idea that Griffey is the worst player on this team and that we should ditch him no matter what we get in return. There have been many posts on this thread and others suggesting the Reds do exactly that.

The level of vitriol directed at Junior is sickening. The lack of patience, the knee-jerk emotional reactions and the disregard for his proven track record on a message board the caliber of the ORG is disturbing.

If the goal is to improve the team we should bring up Bruce and cut Patterson or Valentin. Keeping one of those two instead of Griffey yields an inferior team.

Patrick Bateman
05-19-2008, 04:25 AM
The level of vitriol directed at Junior is sickening. The lack of patience, the knee-jerk emotional reactions and the disregard for his proven track record on a message board the caliber of the ORG is disturbing.



I'm going to take exception with this comment. I don't see a lot of people calling Griffey pissing on Griffey for his current play. Most respect his accomplisments and would honestly enjoy watching Griffey truly succeed with a talented team. In that regard, it's a shame that Griffey was not dealt to the White Sox a few years back when they were an elite team.

What I do see is people putting aside his previous accomplishments in order to evaluate the player he is today, and the type of value he can bring to this rebuilding team. Right now, we are looking at the worst fielding RF'der in the game, and additionally, a guy that has had a string of 400 at-bats produce an OPS around .750. That type of production belongs on the bench, in the AL, maybe as a DH.

I appreciate his past abilities, and perhaps his bat will rebound. That's certainly a possibility. But I think it's pretty telling that the worst string of production in his career has occurred at age 38/39 after tons of leg injuries. Those factors suggest that a steep decline was on the horizon. Has he forgotted how to hit? No... but physical limititations become a factor at this stage in his career. Proven track record is great, but at the same time, all good things come to an end. Skills deteriorate with age, and Girffey is no exception. We've seen it in his fielding, and we have a not insignificant sample size to show a pretty ugly trend with his hitting. One has to think that his array of leg injuries has sapped his power. It's pretty different when a guy like Dunn struggles... there was no reason to suggest that his skills are gone, and it was really a matter of time before he started hitting. With Griffey, there are many unique factors to consider.

At this juncture, Griffey offers extremely little to the Reds. The Reds have the replacement in house, and is a virtual lock to outproduce Griffey (especially when considering defense) from the get-go. The Reds are better off handing the torch to Bruce, saving some coin, adding a prospect, and additonally, find a spot for Griffey where he can play on a legit contender, and hopefully win a championship. IMO, it's in the interests of everyone for that to happen. And I will be hoping for him the entire way. Griffey will start hitting better than he has to date, but the years of the .850+ OPS he needs to be an impact bat appear to be over. I personally think he has it in him to be an 800 OPS type of guy, as a secondary hitter, but that's about it.

Edskin
05-19-2008, 08:28 AM
The level of vitriol directed at Junior is sickening. The lack of patience, the knee-jerk emotional reactions and the disregard for his proven track record on a message board the caliber of the ORG is disturbing.

If the goal is to improve the team we should bring up Bruce and cut Patterson or Valentin. Keeping one of those two instead of Griffey yields an inferior team.

I am going to agree with AK here....show me more than one or two random posts on RZ where someone is directing "vitriol" at Junior.

membengal
05-19-2008, 09:12 AM
It will be fun to look back at posts like this once Griffey goes on a tear. I have been enjoying similar posts regarding EE and Dunn lately.

Screw the 30 homers and 93 RBIs from last year. The guy just fell off a cliff one day and completely lost the sweet swing that granted him 20 years of superstardom. Yeah right.

It would be much better to have Patterson. Every team in the league could have signed him until spring training for virtually nothing, but only the Reds were dumb enough. But we would rather have him than a guy that hit 30 homers, 93 RBI with an .859 OPS. Patterson has never reached any of those numbers in any season of his career.

Him going on a tear at the plate (which I desperately hope will happen starting tonight) will NOT change my opinion. He is so limited defensively that it sets this club back on almost a daily basis. The ball that popped out of his mitt against Florida? That happened because he is old, and it is hard to run like he used to and make those kind of plays. Hey, no big deal, that happens to me too in softball. I am 37, so I understand.

He has aged. Normally. Back before PEDs, it was the RARE player who could defy time. What is happening to Jr. is completely normal, and what happens when players wind down. He needs to DH. Badly.

I hope, HOPE he begins to rake, and carries the team for a week or two, but that is all we can really expect from him. For defense sake, for consistencies sake, I really want to see the Bruce up and playing.

Think about it this way, back in 1989, would it have made sense for Seattle to keep Jr. in AAA in order to preserve bats for a rapidly declining skills 37-year-old? Even if that hypothetical player had once been magnificent?

This team is worse with Jr. on the field. It hurts to know that, but that is the reality.

Nothing hysterical about that. Simply a recognition of age and time.

membengal
05-19-2008, 09:15 AM
I don't disagree about the Reds fielding offers for Griffey, of course they should do that -- for him and all players really. If someone is willing to give up something that helps us out more than Griffey does then we should take it.

What I have argued against in this thread is the idea that Griffey is the worst player on this team and that we should ditch him no matter what we get in return. There have been many posts on this thread and others suggesting the Reds do exactly that.

The level of vitriol directed at Junior is sickening. The lack of patience, the knee-jerk emotional reactions and the disregard for his proven track record on a message board the caliber of the ORG is disturbing.

If the goal is to improve the team we should bring up Bruce and cut Patterson or Valentin. Keeping one of those two instead of Griffey yields an inferior team.

What vitriol? On this board? Direct me to that post.

The recent thread about his current state was filled with posters yearning for him to find someplace to enhance his rapidly diminishing skills as much as possible.

Everyone that I have read on here wants what is best for Jr. and the Reds. For me, that means parting ways. That doesn't mean I hate Jr., far FAR from it.

smith288
05-19-2008, 09:56 AM
A voice of reason in a sea of hysteria. Defense Schmefense. One play by Ryan Freel (who's 7 years younger and has no injuries to his body) can be as devastating as Griffey's deliberate and some say slow manner and yet Freel is a "sparkplug" and gets all our love. But, then again, I'm in the minority.
Dude, I can't STAND the way that dude plays D.

smith288
05-19-2008, 10:00 AM
It will be fun to look back at posts like this once Griffey goes on a tear. I have been enjoying similar posts regarding EE and Dunn lately.

Screw the 30 homers and 93 RBIs from last year. The guy just fell off a cliff one day and completely lost the sweet swing that granted him 20 years of superstardom. Yeah right.

It would be much better to have Patterson. Every team in the league could have signed him until spring training for virtually nothing, but only the Reds were dumb enough. But we would rather have him than a guy that hit 30 homers, 93 RBI with an .859 OPS. Patterson has never reached any of those numbers in any season of his career.
Not sure how you know 100% that no other team but the Reds were interested in signing Patterson.

I don't like his presence on the team either but there is always a team that will take a flyer on a speedy CF who from time to time can hit the ball (albeit it with a balsa wood bat)

kaldaniels
05-19-2008, 11:16 AM
I like Jr. and as long as he is in a Reds uniform I hope for the best. However in my heart of hearts I know he is not a good fit/not right for this team.

That said...back in 2004 I believe when he had a bit of a resurgence I was hoping the Reds could unload him, and obviously I still wish they had.

The Griffey ordeal (which I would do over in a heartbeat...best player in MLB coming into town for a discount) has regrettably been a failure.

This is not a rip on Jr. but had the franchise not acquired him they would be in better shape today I believe. Had they traded him in 2004 they would be in better shape today. And yes, if they unloaded him today, the franchise would be in better shape.

M2
05-19-2008, 11:27 AM
What I have argued against in this thread is the idea that Griffey is the worst player on this team and that we should ditch him no matter what we get in return. There have been many posts on this thread and others suggesting the Reds do exactly that.

He's been the worst starting player on the team this year. That's not vitriol or lack of patience or a knee-jerk emotional reaction or disregard for his track record. That's just what he's done over the first quarter of the season. The Reds are paying a premium for the guy who has been their weakest link and they've got the hottest prospect on the planet waiting in the wings.

Seeing that his offense has become far more sporadic in recent years (as mentioned above) and that his defense is atrocious (which has been the case for years), it puts him front and center in the discussion about how the Reds can deploy Bruce to improve the team. Clearly, as the results of this poll confirm, people prefer to see Bruce replace the worst hitting bad defensive OF on the team. That's Jr. ... and, if we're being honest, that's going to be Jr. even if his bat comes around. Dunn's going to have a higher OB and SLG on top of more HR, RBI and runs scored. That puts Jr. in the ejector seat if you want to see the Reds go from two bad defensive OFs to one.

You don't have to hate the guy to acknowledge that the team stands to improve in baseball terms by replacing him with Bruce. For all of Patterson's faults, he can OPS .750+ vs. RHPs (currently he's at .742) and run down flies better than anyone else on this roster.

Nugget
05-19-2008, 11:31 AM
That's where I think that the theory breaks down - yes the stats would appear to support that Junior is not the player he once was but to say that the team would be better without him, whether he had not come here, been traded or whatever I think is a page too far.

Yes the REDS traded away Mike Cameron and a few others to get him but I don't see Mike Cameron holding down a starting spot on a Major League Roster. He had a few good years after he left coinciding with a few injury years for Junior. No one can ever predict injury or the number. Juniors were abhorrent and all suffered while he was playing.

The REDS have a lot in payroll committed to Junior. I would say that Junior has never stopped the REDS from spending on a player - in fact Junior has deferred much of his salary so the REDS could - and even when the did splurge on the Free Agent market it was the Agents that they signed not Junior who have to perform. Its not like the REDS only went for Milton because Junior was on the payroll - they had other pitchers to spend 3 years and $27 million on. So I do not think that Junior was the cause of Free Agent misses.

Yes the REDS have an outstanding Right Fielder in AAA. Is Jay Bruce going to perform better then Junior - statistics and observations from minor league scouts would say yes at this time. But one won't know this until Bruce plays in the majors. There are other positions the REDS could play Bruce so its not just because Junior is here that Bruce is still in AAA.

The woes of the REDS are not because or due to Junior - nor are the woes of Junior to do with the REDS as he rightly says. They have occurred and the REDS have not played well in those years. If Junior gets traded then I hope he goes where he wants and the REDS send him out on a high. If not I hope the REDS play strong this year and Junior can lift a pennant and a ring with the REDS.

lollipopcurve
05-19-2008, 11:31 AM
It's a simple vote -- yes. Still, it's appropriate that he have veto rights. Very well could mean a trade is highly unlikely.

membengal
05-19-2008, 11:35 AM
Nugget: Cameron is starting CF in Milwaukee...

M2
05-19-2008, 11:39 AM
Yes the REDS traded away Mike Cameron and a few others to get him but I don't see Mike Cameron holding down a starting spot on a Major League Roster. He had a few good years after he left coinciding with a few injury years for Junior.

Cameron's the current starting CF in Milwaukee and he's been one of the steadiest, most productive CFs in the game over the past decade. In fact, his exit from the Padres is being tabbed as one of the chief reason that franchise has fallen apart this year.

If you've lost track of Mike Cameron in the 21st century, you've been missing one heck of a good player.

Reds1
05-19-2008, 11:40 AM
Well, I said no, but only because it had ASAP in the poll. I'd like to see 600 hit in cincy and believe as he gets to 1 and 2 the crowds will stay maybe keepig this awesome attendance and hopefully nice rally. Then they can trade him and Bruce comes up.

Cyclone792
05-19-2008, 12:18 PM
The most interesting twists in the Trade Griffey saga is that the better the Reds perform, the least likely Griffey will be traded. Or perhaps more accurately, the least likely Griffey will agree to be traded.

The winning streak last week dug them out of the hole. If they can prevent sliding back into the hole and then put together another solid streak in the next few weeks, the Reds may actually be borderline contenders. If the Reds miraculously contend this year, they'll do so with Griffey in right until/unless he gets injured since he won't waive the no-trade clause. And if Griffey thinks this team can contend (whether they actually are contending or not is not as pertinent), then it's doubtful he agrees to be traded as well.

Chip R
05-19-2008, 12:33 PM
It will be fun to look back at posts like this once Griffey goes on a tear. I have been enjoying similar posts regarding EE and Dunn lately.

Screw the 30 homers and 93 RBIs from last year. The guy just fell off a cliff one day and completely lost the sweet swing that granted him 20 years of superstardom. Yeah right.



That's the big question, though. Is he just slumping or has he all of a sudden lost it? If he were 25 or even 35, you could probably chalk it up to a slump. But he's 38 1/2 and he's had a lot of physical problems over the past several years - especially to his legs. While he still has that sweet swing, it's the legs that provide the power. It's certainly a reasonable assumption to believe that it just isn't a slump.

If there is a reasonable trade offer out there and if Jr. is OK with it, the Reds need to make a decision whether he's just lost it or if he's going to come out of his slump and put up numbers similar to last season. But those are two big ifs. Plus Dusty is not going to embarrass Jr. by benching or platooning or even dropping him down to the lower part of the order. I said in the poll thread that maybe Jr. doesn't want to be traded because he knows he will play every day here whereas if he's traded, he'll only be a part time player and/or DH.

WebScorpion
05-19-2008, 02:36 PM
Well, I said no, but only because it had ASAP in the poll. I'd like to see 600 hit in cincy and believe as he gets to 1 and 2 the crowds will stay maybe keepig this awesome attendance and hopefully nice rally. Then they can trade him and Bruce comes up.

This was my line of thinking too. But I don't think we'll get anything for him and I don't think he'll want to be traded if we continue winning. I'm thinking more and more, he may need to accept a smaller role after he hits #600 and Bruce passes the super two milestone.

Reds1
05-19-2008, 04:17 PM
This was my line of thinking too. But I don't think we'll get anything for him and I don't think he'll want to be traded if we continue winning. I'm thinking more and more, he may need to accept a smaller role after he hits #600 and Bruce passes the super two milestone.

It's not like Griffey is just awful. Yes, he's slumping, no long balls, but he has a few timely hits and 20 RBIs. But that is during a slump. He'll have one of these Dunn type couple of weeks and as the crafty lefthander says will push his numbers up to what it is on the back of his baseball card. If we didn't have Jay Bruce in AAA I'm not sure it would be quite the issue, but Griffey is a vet who is a quiet leader and does his thing. I love it. He wants to play and is stuborn. If we do contend I want so bad for Griffey to be a part of it and really might be needed for it to happen, but if not we really can't afford him when we have a stud ready to step in and be better at about everything except for experience.

We have no idea what Jay Bruce will be. He could come up lead the league in Ks. He'll have up and downs and could really struggle. It's an unknown, but like Votto we want to see what the kid can do. Reds don't have to make a move yet so I wouldn't expect it.

WMR
05-19-2008, 04:22 PM
Is it really a slump when he hits a ball as absolutely perfectly as he can and it is still destined to die on the warning track? That says something else to me.

Always Red
05-19-2008, 04:36 PM
Is it really a slump when he hits a ball as absolutely perfectly as he can and it is still destined to die on the warning track? That says something else to me.

That tells me the same thing my eyes do when I see he cannot catch up to an 85 mph fastball- his bat speed has mysteriously left him. His swing still looks buttery smooth, but just doesn't have the snap in it at this point.

I think Jr will be here the rest of the year; I hope he regains his stroke and ends his time here on a positive note.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-19-2008, 04:39 PM
He should not be playing against LHP's right now as well.

And if he does, he needs to be hitting 7th.

RedsManRick
05-19-2008, 05:11 PM
It's not like Griffey is just awful. Yes, he's slumping, no long balls, but he has a few timely hits and 20 RBIs.

I'm sorry, but a .701 OPS from a guy giving you negative defensive value is awful. He has a negative VORP, which doesn't even touch on his defense. Of the 248 players with 100+ PA, Junior is 194th -- 25th among RF. That's awful.

I agree, he is slumping and is likely to rebound to something on the positive side of the ledger. But make no mistake, he has been awful so far this year. The Reds woe this year has been (in part) due to Junior's extremely limited defense range leading to extra hits and replacement level offense while batting 3rd.

WebScorpion
05-21-2008, 01:57 PM
Is it really a slump when he hits a ball as absolutely perfectly as he can and it is still destined to die on the warning track? That says something else to me.

That says, "Welcome to Chavez Ravine!" :lol:

membengal
05-21-2008, 02:36 PM
Except it is happening at every park he plays in.

flyer85
05-21-2008, 02:58 PM
To this point Jr's BRAA is -4 and his FRAA is -7, his BRAR is 2 and his FRAR is -4. Really awful and there is no way around it. He has been a huge impediment to this offense scoring runs and the defense stopping t runs.

Degenerate39
05-21-2008, 03:27 PM
As much as I love Junior I had to vote yes. Once Griffey is gone we can only assume that the Reds would bring up Bruce. Bruce would immediately help the defense and offense. But as long as either Griffey or Patterson are on the team Bruce will be in Louisville. Can't really have 4 left handed outfielders on one team.

lollipopcurve
05-21-2008, 03:34 PM
Folks, 2008 is the swan song. I'm trying to enjoy it by understanding the guy's place in the game's history, coupled with the fact he grew up a member of the Reds family. He's a giant, and, in important ways, he's just as much ours as he is Seattle's.

For now, the fact that he's struggling to hit for power makes the countdown to 600 more interesting, I think. 1-2 HRs robbed as he sits stuck on 597. In a way, I hope he creeps up slowly and sits on 599 for the better part of a long homestand, then gets it at GAB.

VR
05-21-2008, 04:53 PM
I'm in the camp that agrees he needs to move on. Get to an AL club where DHing will save his legs and allow him to put up good #'s for a couple of years. In essence, I'm such a big fan of Jr. I realize trading him is the best for him, and the Reds.

I wonder how much his friends illness and death have weighed on him this year. He's very private about it...but it must be tough on him.

Remember what happened the last time the Reds parted ways with a Griffey mid-season......

Reds1
05-21-2008, 10:40 PM
I'm sorry, but a .701 OPS from a guy giving you negative defensive value is awful. He has a negative VORP, which doesn't even touch on his defense. Of the 248 players with 100+ PA, Junior is 194th -- 25th among RF. That's awful.

I agree, he is slumping and is likely to rebound to something on the positive side of the ledger. But make no mistake, he has been awful so far this year. The Reds woe this year has been (in part) due to Junior's extremely limited defense range leading to extra hits and replacement level offense while batting 3rd.

I don't have the stats, but I actually meant lately he's been better. He's hit some good lefties and a few timely hits for RBIs. I also saw him make a couple nice plays in the field, but alas agree his range has dropped.

NJReds
05-27-2008, 10:20 AM
I'm in the camp that agrees he needs to move on. Get to an AL club where DHing will save his legs and allow him to put up good #'s for a couple of years. In essence, I'm such a big fan of Jr. I realize trading him is the best for him, and the Reds.


With Tampa Bay in 1st place, I wonder if Jr. would veto a trade there. He'd be close to home, he could DH and mentor some of the young players.

If the Reds picked up some of the cash they might get a decent return as Tampa has a pretty stocked minor league system. We could throw in a reliever (Weathers) as well.

Matt700wlw
05-28-2008, 01:24 PM
With Gary Sheffield on the DL, I wonder if the Tigers would be interested?

The sooner the Reds can get him out of Cincinnati, the better...it's just time.

Will M
05-28-2008, 01:26 PM
With Gary Sheffield on the DL, I wonder if the Tigers would be interested?

There are only a few teams that make sense for Jr - contender, needs DH/corner outfielder. Detroit is one of these. Even with Sheffield I think their left fielder is Marcus Thames.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 01:27 PM
I really don't see a fit for Jr anywhere ... he has been replacement level this season.