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View Full Version : No reason to bat Janish in the 2 hole



Blitz Dorsey
05-20-2008, 11:16 PM
If you are going to start Paul Janish, a below .240 hitter in his minor league career, you might not want to hit him No. 2. I'm thinking the No. 8 spot would be ideal for a hitter of his acumen.

I actually like Dusty, but I'm starting to see what some of his bashers are saying. Bat by far the worst hitter in your lineup second? Wow.

And for a "great defensive player" Janish better step it up defensively.

reds44
05-20-2008, 11:17 PM
Corey Patterson and Paul Janish is the worst top of the order in the majors. Hands down.

AmarilloRed
05-20-2008, 11:21 PM
Janish is 4 for 6 in his very limited major league career; his numbers in the minors aren't great but let's at least give him a chance to prove himself. Still, putting him in the 8 hole would be a good idea for now.

Falls City Beer
05-20-2008, 11:22 PM
Threadworthy?

Blitz Dorsey
05-20-2008, 11:24 PM
Janish is 4 for 6 in his very limited major league career; his numbers in the minors aren't great but let's at least give him a chance to prove himself. Still, putting him in the 8 hole would be a good idea for now.

I hope Dusty is not making lineups based on a sample size of six MLB at bats. Everyone knows Janish is the worst hitter (pitchers not included) on the 25-man roster. So why not bat him in the No. 2 hole. Brilliant!

Blitz Dorsey
05-20-2008, 11:24 PM
Threadworthy?

I asked Elaine Benes and she said it was not only threadworthy but spongeworthy as well.

KronoRed
05-20-2008, 11:27 PM
Our 1/2 hitters should be hitting 7/8

REDREAD
05-20-2008, 11:28 PM
I'm one of Dusty's biggest supporters, but this is sillly.. of course, he'll probably prove Dusty is a genius and get 3 hits..

AmarilloRed
05-20-2008, 11:29 PM
I hope Dusty is not making lineups based on a sample size of six MLB at bats. Everyone knows Janish is the worst hitter (pitchers not included) on the 25-man roster. So why not bat him in the No. 2 hole. Brilliant!

There are some pretty bad hitters on the Reds 25 man roster; I am not ready to call Janish the worst just yet.

LoganBuck
05-20-2008, 11:39 PM
Corey Patterson takes offense to someone saying Janish is a worse hitter. Let the kid earn his stripes.

Tony Cloninger
05-20-2008, 11:56 PM
Dusty played in the 70's...... Frank Duffy was the leadoff hitter for CLE in 1974....Eddie Brinkman and Aurelio Rodriguez were 1/2 in the order for the Tigers. Dave freaking Chalk batted leadoff for the Angels.

That's what you get with baseball mangers who lived in 70's baseball.

Spring~Fields
05-21-2008, 12:08 AM
The Reds were the team of the 70’s to emulate and their shortstop and centerfielder did not hit first and second if I recall correctly. Some utility player who played about every position led off, a guy named Rose. I thought a second baseman batted second and a right fielder batted third, Dusty has that part right as far as position player.

The manager of that day knew something about winning and winning championships and he had his batters that could actually hit the ball or work a walk batting one, two. His weak batters batted down in the order.

RedsManRick
05-21-2008, 12:31 AM
Ummm... Hello? He plays Shortstop. Duh! What else do you want from a #2 hitter. C'mon Dude. This stuff ain't that hard.

RedEye
05-21-2008, 12:42 AM
I hope Dusty is not making lineups based on a sample size of six MLB at bats. Everyone knows Janish is the worst hitter (pitchers not included) on the 25-man roster. So why not bat him in the No. 2 hole. Brilliant!

Dusty is making his lineups based on a sample size of: always bat the SS second.

RedEye
05-21-2008, 12:45 AM
The Reds were the team of the 70’s to emulate and their shortstop and centerfielder did not hit first and second if I recall correctly. Some utility player who played about every position led off, a guy named Rose. I thought a second baseman batted second and a right fielder batted third, Dusty has that part right as far as position player.

The manager of that day knew something about winning and winning championships and he had his batters that could actually hit the ball or work a walk batting one, two. His weak batters batted down in the order.

I find this very confusing. What do Corey Patterson and Pete Rose have in common besides, well, laundry? Are you saying Dusty knows what he's doing or doesn't?

EDIT: Never mind... I just read the post before yours. Sorry.

Tony Cloninger
05-21-2008, 01:04 AM
How different would it have been with Geronimo 1st and Davey 2nd....no Rose or Morgan.

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 01:05 AM
I don't know... at least Corey Patterson is an above .240 hitter in the Majors as opposed to a below .240 hitter in the minors. Patterson should not be batting leadoff, no doubt, but when an even worse decision like batting Janish second is made, I barely notice.

Spring~Fields
05-21-2008, 01:15 AM
I find this very confusing. What do Corey Patterson and Pete Rose have in common besides, well, laundry? Are you saying Dusty knows what he's doing or doesn't?

EDIT: Never mind... I just read the post before yours. Sorry.


That’s okay, the other day I was going on and on while talking about Bailey and calling him and writing Hamilton in the thread, one can readily see why I might get questioned. :eek:

I am saying that the manager in the age that Dusty played knew more about winning and winning championships than Dusty, and that manager who showed a propensity for winning did not bat the CF and SS first and second just because they played those positions. I think that Sparky went with OBP batters and then the SLG batters. I am not sure what he did at Detroit, but he probably followed a similiar pattern.

I think that both managers knew/know what they were doing.

Spring~Fields
05-21-2008, 01:21 AM
How different would it have been with Geronimo 1st and Davey 2nd....no Rose or Morgan.

In the early days of them, it might have been rough. That reminds me that everything wasn't always so great until Morgan came along.

Tony Cloninger
05-21-2008, 01:23 AM
Well Rose and Tolan were pretty good 1/2 in 1969 and 1970....Tolan lacked the OBP skills of Morgan or even Bernie Carbo, however.

Spring~Fields
05-21-2008, 01:26 AM
Ummm... Hello? He plays Shortstop. Duh! What else do you want from a #2 hitter. C'mon Dude. This stuff ain't that hard.

He had a .833 OBP .800 SLG 1.633 OPS going into this game, so Dusty is playing it by the book.....;) small sample aside.

flyer85
05-21-2008, 01:47 AM
why bat Corey leadoff. Why continue to hit Jr 3rd?

There are a lot of questions that don't have a good answer.

Spring~Fields
05-21-2008, 02:05 AM
why bat Corey leadoff. Why continue to hit Jr 3rd?

There are a lot of questions that don't have a good answer.

He doesn’t seem to hesitate to adjust or bat the others down in the order, I don’t understand why he won’t make adjustments with Patterson, Griffey and whoever when needed, especially including moving down Phillips against right handers.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2008, 03:55 AM
A nice comment from Baker on Janish's error on Monday night:

"And to tell you the truth, that was a hell of a play he made stopping that ball," Baker added. "There are not a whole bunch of shortstops who would have gotten to that ball. That's where sometimes you get errors because you have range and others don't get errors because they can't get to them."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/05/20/ddn052108spredsnotesweb.html

Topcat
05-21-2008, 04:06 AM
Threadworthy?

:rolleyes: apparently , but no kidding. I am at a loss to know why a thread was made on this.

Ron Madden
05-21-2008, 04:26 AM
He had a .833 OBP .800 SLG 1.633 OPS going into this game, so Dusty is playing it by the book.....;) small sample aside.

NAH,

"The Book" was written long ago.

"The Book" says to hit your fastest runner first, followed by a middle infielder.

The three, four and five spots are for your RBI guys. (contact hitters)

Your six and seven hitters don't matter but the catcher hits eighth and the Pitcher Ninth.

Ya gotta know how to play the game, Ya gotta know how to win!

Ya gotta scratch and claw to score runs.

To hell with OBP, SLG and OPS!


;)

camisadelgolf
05-21-2008, 06:07 AM
I won't defend putting Patterson at the top of the lineup (because I'm not completely stupid), but at least Janish can consistently make contact and take a walk from time to time. He's a career .265 hitter in the minor leagues, and that is with a solid .356 OBP. Besides, it's the best managers who know which of his players are hot and give them the most playing time. Maybe last night was a one-game slump for Janish, or maybe it it's the beginning of a long slide, but trying Janish in the two-slot wasn't all that bad of an idea.

Spring~Fields
05-21-2008, 09:46 AM
I am at a loss to know why a thread was made on this.

Dusty is too.

The thread is about chances, frequency, percentages, probability, outcomes, along with the decisions and choices that can and do adversely impact or enhance those.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Cause+and+effect+theory

klw
05-21-2008, 10:36 AM
:rolleyes: apparently , but no kidding. I am at a loss to know why a thread was made on this.

I think this is a very worthy topic for a thread but it does concern me that there is no mention in it of how Hamilton is doing, whether the trade (part I or part II) should be undone, or how much better it would be if Bruce was brought up, Dusty's quote of the day, whether Marty has lost it, whether TMZ's fav celeb KGJ should be sent to Seattle to trip over sidewalks before or after his 600th homerun, nor if Dunn strikes out too often in Tuesday day games with runners on 2nd and 3rd and less than two outs.

Chip R
05-21-2008, 10:39 AM
Hey, at least he played. Everybody's been moaning about how Dusty hasn't started him and now that he started a game everybody moans about where he's hitting. Be thankful the Dusty actually played him.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2008, 11:03 AM
I didn't see anyone complaining when he went 3-for-3 with a walk on Sunday. ;) But seriously, as long as he's hot I have no problem with him batting second but I'd drop him down if/when he begins to struggle.

Patterson, OTOH, should bat 8th.

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 11:07 AM
:rolleyes: apparently , but no kidding. I am at a loss to know why a thread was made on this.

"At a loss" ... haha... way to go for the overdramatic effect.

You don't bat your worst hitter in the two hole. I'm at a loss that something like that could happen.

And yes, batting Griffey third is a crime as well. So is batting Patterson leadoff. But Janish in the two hole takes the prize.

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 11:09 AM
A nice comment from Baker on Janish's error on Monday night:

"And to tell you the truth, that was a hell of a play he made stopping that ball," Baker added. "There are not a whole bunch of shortstops who would have gotten to that ball. That's where sometimes you get errors because you have range and others don't get errors because they can't get to them."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/05/20/ddn052108spredsnotesweb.html

That's BS. I saw the play and ANY Major League shortstop that is worth his weight would have snagged that ball. It would have been a tough play for a low minors SS, but not an average MLB shortstop. And for a good defensive MLB SS, that would have been almost a routine play. I said almost. The only real excuse Janish has is that he had just come into the game. Don't you love when there is a defensive replacement, a supposed great defensive player, and then he immediately makes an error to cost the Reds the game.

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 11:13 AM
Hey, at least he played. Everybody's been moaning about how Dusty hasn't started him and now that he started a game everybody moans about where he's hitting. Be thankful the Dusty actually played him.

No, actually I never moaned that he wasn't starting. And if you are going to start a guy who is a career. 230 hitter in the minor leagues, you might want to bat him eighth. It didn't matter last night, we would have lost anyway, but I've been a Dusty supporter (still am) but I'm starting to see what his critics are talking about. He makes dumb decisions that make absolutely no sense when filling out his lineup card. And he has ZERO guts. Any manager with "intestinal fortitude" (as Jeff Brantley loves to say) would have moved Griffey out of the three hole long ago. With Keppinger out, Dunn should be batting second and Freel should always be batting leadoff. Then you can go Phillips third, Votto fourth.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2008, 11:14 AM
That's BS. I saw the play and ANY Major League shortstop that is worth his weight would have snagged that ball. It would have been a tough play for a low minors SS, but not an average MLB shortstop. And for a good defensive MLB SS, that would have been almost a routine play. I said almost. The only real excuse Janish has is that he had just come into the game. Don't you love when there is a defensive replacement, a supposed great defensive player, and then he immediately makes an error to cost the Reds the game.

An average major league SS makes that play? Yeah right. That's a single into center field if Hairston or Keppinger is playing SS.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2008, 11:14 AM
No, actually I never moaned that he wasn't starting. And if you are going to start a guy who is a career. 230 hitters in the minor leagues, you might want to bat him eighth. It didn't matter last night, we would have lost anyway, but I've been a Dusty supporter (still am) but I'm starting to see what he critics are talking about. He makes dumb decisions that make absolutely no sense when filling out his lineup. And he has ZERO guts. Any manager with "intestinal fortitude" (as Jeff Brantley loves to say) would have moved Griffey out of the three hole long ago. With Keppinger out, Dunn should be batting second and Freel should always be batting leadoff. Then you can go Phillips third, Votto fourth.

Except Paul Janish isn't a career .230 hitter in the minors.

RedlegJake
05-21-2008, 11:17 AM
That's BS. I saw the play and ANY Major League shortstop that is worth his weight would have snagged that ball. It would have been a tough play for a low minors SS, but not an average MLB shortstop. And for a good defensive MLB SS, that would have been almost a routine play. I said almost. The only real excuse Janish has is that he had just come into the game. Don't you love when there is a defensive replacement, a supposed great defensive player, and then he immediately makes an error to cost the Reds the game.

Yeah, I'd much prefer Dusty to lambast the new kid just up and tell the media he really stinks and after 1 error we're dumping his butt back to A ball. :rolleyes:

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 11:25 AM
Yeah, I'd much prefer Dusty to lambast the new kid just up and tell the media he really stinks and after 1 error we're dumping his butt back to A ball. :rolleyes:

Who said Dusty should blast the kid? Nice reach. I'm just saying his quote is not accurate, unless you have a very weak opinion of the defensive abilities of starting shortstops around Major League Baseball.

RedlegJake
05-21-2008, 11:26 AM
What I've seen from Janish at the plate, drawing lots and lots of pitches, working the pitcher tells me he has the chance to keep improving his game. He'll never be a great hitter but I see no reason why he can't work enough walks with his approach to hit .250/.260 and OBP in the .350 range. Maybe not right away but soon. As for defense his range is very good and I've been impressed -the best SS's ever made errors so I'm not worried about that. The only thing I want to see more of is if he keeps working counts the way he has or whether that's a small sample aberration. Right now I'd put Janish in the lineup everyday, he has Hairston beat hands down. By the time AGon or Kepp get back you know what you have in Janish, or at least a much better idea.

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 11:27 AM
An average major league SS makes that play? Yeah right. That's a single into center field if Hairston or Keppinger is playing SS.

You just used "average MLB SS" and "Jerry Hairston" in the same comment. I was referring to real MLB shortstops, not ones that had one career start entering this season.

Keppinger makes that play. No question about it. It was not that difficult. This reminds me of when the pathetic "Official Scorers" around MLB award a hit when it clearly should have been an error. These guys are Major League players, not high school players. They are expected to make relatively tough defensive plays. Janish's play would have been almost routine for a good MLB defensive shortstop, period.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2008, 11:30 AM
You just used "average MLB SS" and "Jerry Hairston" in the same comment. I was referring to real MLB shortstops, not ones that had one career start entering this season.

Keppinger makes that play. No question about it. It was not that difficult. This reminds me of when the pathetic "Official Scorers" around MLB award a hit when it clearly should have been an error. These guys are Major League players, not high school players. They are expected to make relatively tough defensive plays. Janish's play would have been almost routine for a good MLB defensive shortstop, period.

I like Keppinger, but I saw a few balls go into centerfield that should have been caught. I highly doubt Keppinger makes that play.

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 11:34 AM
What I've seen from Janish at the plate, drawing lots and lots of pitches, working the pitcher tells me he has the chance to keep improving his game. He'll never be a great hitter but I see no reason why he can't work enough walks with his approach to hit .250/.260 and OBP in the .350 range. Maybe not right away but soon. As for defense his range is very good and I've been impressed -the best SS's ever made errors so I'm not worried about that. The only thing I want to see more of is if he keeps working counts the way he has or whether that's a small sample aberration. Right now I'd put Janish in the lineup everyday, he has Hairston beat hands down. By the time AGon or Kepp get back you know what you have in Janish, or at least a much better idea.

Fine, but in the meantime, bat him 8th and your good hitters at the top of the lineup. That's all I'm saying. Janish deserves some starts given our current pathetic situation at SS. However, he never deserves to bat 2nd based on his minor league numbers. If people don't think minor league stats are a good indicator of future MLB stats, they haven't been paying attention. If Janish proves over time to be a decent MLB hitter, then you move him up. You definitely don't bury your head in the sand and put him in the 2 hole and just pray for the best. That is just dumb IMO.

flyer85
05-21-2008, 11:38 AM
That's BS. I saw the play and ANY Major League shortstop that is worth his weight would have snagged that ball.my thought after watching the replay was that we have seen Kepp make that play numerous times. There is nothing special about Janish from an athletic standpoint. As a matter of fact I would say his speed and quickness would be below average for a shortstop(just like Keppinger and Gonzalez) ... what he does have is an a cannon for an arm, makes the throws look easy.

Chip R
05-21-2008, 11:39 AM
Problem is that we have too many #8 hitters in the lineup.

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 11:44 AM
my thought after watching the replay was that we have seen Kepp make that play numerous times. There is nothing special about Janish from an athletic standpoint. As a matter of fact I would say his speed and quickness would be below average for a shortstop(just like Keppinger and Gonzalez) ... what he does have is an a cannon for an arm, makes the throws look easy.

Hey, I'm not completely out on an island here. And I agree with your second point as well, Janish does have a rifle for a right arm. I like Paul Janish, I just think Dusty batting him second represents everything that Dusty's critics say about him. And I like Dusty! We'll see if I still do a few months from now.

RedlegJake
05-21-2008, 11:44 AM
Fine, but in the meantime, bat him 8th and your good hitters at the top of the lineup. That's all I'm saying. Janish deserves some starts given our current pathetic situation at SS. However, he never deserves to bat 2nd based on his minor league numbers. If people don't think minor league stats are a good indicator of future MLB stats, they haven't been paying attention. If Janish proves over time to be a decent MLB hitter, then you move him up. You definitely don't bury your head in the sand and put him in the 2 hole and just pray for the best. That is just dumb IMO.

Ahhhh, there's the rub and I agree wholeheartedly. CP and Janish 1-2 should be 7-8. Of course that means Bako or Ross 6th. Chip is right on -there are too many guys in the lineup who need to be hitting 8th. Take out the best 4 hitters and with Junior's problems there are 4 guys who are very weak at the plate.

camisadelgolf
05-21-2008, 11:50 AM
Who said Dusty should blast the kid? Nice reach. I'm just saying his quote is not accurate, unless you have a very weak opinion of the defensive abilities of starting shortstops around Major League Baseball.

You're worried about accuracy after claiming that Janish is a .230 hitter for his career in the minors?

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 11:57 AM
You're worried about accuracy after claiming that Janish is a .230 hitter for his career in the minors?

Did you minor or major in semantics? But since you brought it up, in 523 at-bats at AA Chattanooga and AAA Louisville combined last season, Paul Janish batted .235. That is a large sample size and probably a pretty good indicator of how he will hit over a long stretch in the Majors.

Next!

flyer85
05-21-2008, 12:04 PM
It is unlikely that Janish's bat will play in the majors. Wouldn't be a problem except for the fact that the Reds aren't getting much production out of a number of other positions.

The one thing I do like about Janish at the plate is that he is more patient than most of the Reds hitters, right now a number of hitters are up that hacking at anything that looks like it might be a strike.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2008, 12:19 PM
Did you minor or major in semantics? But since you brought it up, in 523 at-bats at AA Chattanooga and AAA Louisville combined last season, Paul Janish batted .235. That is a large sample size and probably a pretty good indicator of how he will hit over a long stretch in the Majors.

Next!

You said Paul Janish is a career .230 hitter in the minors. That's not true. He hit .265/.356/.385 in the minors.

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 01:12 PM
Sorry, I meant last season. I actually thought Janish was a career .240 hitter in the minors as I said earlier in the thread. He is actually .265 like you said, but did not fare well in career-high at bats last year. When looking at minor league stats, I always look at the year the player received the most ABs first. Usually a pretty good indicator of how he'll hit in the Bigs.

Will M
05-21-2008, 01:24 PM
CF,C & SS are the classic 'defense first' positions.
However, a good team needs one of these three spots to contribute offensively. As people have pointed out 6-7-8-P is 4/5 spots in the lineup.
Janish's bat ( if it turns out he is a .265 singles hitter ) isn't the problem by itself. it is that plus the weak hitting catcher and centerfielder.
Walt needs to be scouring the majors/AAA/AA/Japan for a centerfielder and/or a catcher who can hit a little.

smith288
05-21-2008, 01:26 PM
Did you minor or major in semantics? But since you brought it up, in 523 at-bats at AA Chattanooga and AAA Louisville combined last season, Paul Janish batted .235. That is a large sample size and probably a pretty good indicator of how he will hit over a long stretch in the Majors.

Next!
Sorry, but the "Next!" is a bit much for RedsZone. Take that to Reds.com or ESPN...

Spring~Fields
05-21-2008, 03:17 PM
Last seven days
Regulars
Dunn .421 .542 1.211 1.752
Phillip .417 .462 .625 1.087
Hairston .313 .389 .625 1.014
Freel .385 .429 .462 .890
Griffey .261 .346 .304 .651
Votto .143 .182 .333 .515
Encarcion .158 .238 .211 .449
Bako .091 .375 .091 .466
Patterson .167 .167 .167 .333


Substitutes
Valentin .333 .333 .667 1.000
Janish .444 .500 .444 .944
Ross .429 .500 .429 .929
Hatteberg .000 .000 .000 .000

Last 21 days minor league
Bruce .443 .474 .800 1.274

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 04:39 PM
Sorry, but the "Next!" is a bit much for RedsZone. Take that to Reds.com or ESPN...

No thanks, you go right ahead with that.

Reds1
05-21-2008, 06:26 PM
Sorry for my lack of insight, but I totally freakin agree!

AmarilloRed
05-22-2008, 02:05 AM
Did you minor or major in semantics? But since you brought it up, in 523 at-bats at AA Chattanooga and AAA Louisville combined last season, Paul Janish batted .235. That is a large sample size and probably a pretty good indicator of how he will hit over a long stretch in the Majors.

Next!

Janish was hitting for a .293 BA/.343 OBP in 123 AB so far this year in Louisville. Small sample size, but there is definitely a chance he may have turned the corner offensively.

OldRightHander
05-22-2008, 06:04 PM
As has been mentioned earlier, he seems to be showing good plate discipline. While that alone might not merit him a spot high in the order, it makes it easier to stomach than Patterson being up there. Numbers aside, I like what I see from his approach so far. If you're going to have a weak hitter high in the order, I'd at least have it be one who makes the opposing pitcher throw a good number of pitches.

RedsManRick
05-22-2008, 06:32 PM
Janish has displayed pretty good plate discipline throughout his minor league career. The trick for him will be contact rate. He doesn't have enough power to offset a low contact rate, which would drive his batting average (and thus OBP) down.

Let's assume he hits no HR (a HR or two wouldn't change the math significantly), so all of his hits are from balls in play. Let's also assume he has an average BABIP of .300. In his minor league career, he's averaged about a 15% K rate and 8% walk rate.

Given 100 PA...
8 BB (92 AB)
14 K
78 balls in play
- 23 hits
- 55 outs

That works out a .250 AVG and .310 OBP. Given an assumed lack of slugging -- probably something close to his OBP -- that would put him pretty much right at replacement level for a SS, if not a tick below. Throw in a plus glove and he's not a bad guy to have around, but he's not much of an asset. But if he strikes out any more than that, or walks any less, he's in big trouble (read: Juan Castro).

So far, so good. He's only struck out once in 12 AB, which means he's put the ball in play one more time than expected. However, he's gotten 5 hits on those 11 balls in play, 2 more than we would expect -- because he's hit 5 line drives, 3 more than we would expect. Obviously the variance in such a small sample is insane and doesn't tell us anything about what's likely to happen moving forward. However, he's on the right track.

It's interesting, you can start to see the relationship between power and strikeouts pretty clear. The reality is that unless you hit for power, you can't strikeout and be a productive ball player due to the limitations of BABIP. It just doesn't work. It's not necessarily that power hitters tend to strike out more because of some shared skill set, but that if you strike out a lot, you have to have a lot of power to be productive enough to make it to the majors. Walking a lot helps too... But if you limit your strikeouts significantly, you can be a very productive one -- just like Keppinger or his virtual twin, Polacido Polanco.

Blitz Dorsey
06-14-2008, 06:11 PM
What incentive does Dusty give players like Janish to improve? Basically his mesage is, "Doesn't matter how bad you look at the plate, Paul, I'm leaving you in the 2 hole."

Janish just keeps looking worse, and Dusty does absolutely nothing. Although, at least Corey Patterson isn't batting leadoff as much these days. But Janish batting second every day is beyond a joke. The guy is overmatched with Big League pitching! Dusty is the only one who can't see that. And none of his coaches have the stones to pound the table and say, "Dusty, you have to get this kid out of there. Bat him eighth. He is killing us at the top of the order."

4256 Hits
06-14-2008, 06:24 PM
He now as a sub .500 OPS. But that doesn't stop Dusty from giving him the 2nd most at bats. :rolleyes:

dougdirt
06-14-2008, 06:41 PM
From C Trent's blog

Dusty Baker said Jolbert Cabrera will get a start at shortstop sometime soon, but he didn't want it to be today.

".A lot of it depends on who is pitching for us more than who is pitching against us," Baker said. "(Edinson) Volquez is throwing more ground balls and (Bronson) Arroyo throwing more fly balls."

The team is better defensively with Janish, and with him there and more ground balls, the team can be better.

Baker also said he didn't want to give him a day off after four strikeouts in Friday's game, because you need to get right back into action to try to get that off your mind. Baker told him the story of the time he struck out four times in a game and in his last at-bat he tried to bunt in his last at-bat just so he wouldn't strike out. He missed the bunt and ended up strking out. When he got back to his dugout, his teammates gave him a standing ovation.

And yes, closet Cub fans, he's heard the complaints about Janish batting second.

"A guy got on me about him batting second, I canít have too many outs at the bottom either and give them an easy inning," Baker said. "I figured, with Junior behind him, theyíll give him something to hit or I can hit-and-run or bunt a guy over."

Spring~Fields
06-14-2008, 07:18 PM
"A guy got on me about him batting second, I can’t have too many outs at the bottom either and give them an easy inning," Baker said. "I figured, with Junior behind him, they’ll give him something to hit or I can hit-and-run or bunt a guy over."

But he doesn't have a problem with giving the other side the easy innings at the top of the order while taking the extra AB away from his better hitters. If Janish might get something to hit with Griffey behind him, how much more might Bruce, Votto, or EE get something to hit, and actually hit it with Griffey behind him?

Trent and Marty said on the radio that they weren't buying his comments on Janish batting second, I don't either considering that no matter who the ss has been Keppinger forward Baker has had the ss and cf batting one two. The manager is just wrong.

OnBaseMachine
06-14-2008, 07:22 PM
Batting Griffey third is almost as bad as batting Janish second. Griffey is OPSing under .770 and just had one of the worst atbats I have EVER seen.

Spring~Fields
06-14-2008, 07:28 PM
Batting Griffey third is almost as bad as batting Janish second. Griffey is OPSing under .770 and just had one of the worst atbats I have EVER seen.

Yes, and we know that with Baker he bats the CF leadoff, the SS second, and he bats Griffey third regardless of the batters skills and current ability to produce. So what does that imply about Bakers expressed comment about "easy innings" ? Am I wrong or did they say during the game last night that the Reds have lost 28 of 32 games 3 runs or less?

Apparently I misunderstood them last night. I only get 18 games lost by 3 or less runs.

18 games of the 36 games lost by 3 runs or less
Mar. 31 vs. Arizona L 4-2
Apr. 7 vs. Philadelphia L 5-3
Apr. 8 at Milwaukee L 3-2
Apr. 11 at Pittsburgh L 1-0
Apr. 12 at Pittsburgh L 4-3
Apr. 18 vs. Milwaukee L 5-2
Apr. 19 vs. Milwaukee L 5-3
Apr. 24 vs. Houston L 5-3
Apr. 25 at San Francisco L 3-1
Apr. 30 at St. Louis L 5-2
May 2 at Atlanta L 2-0
May 6 vs. Chi Cubs L 3-0
May 19 at LA Dodgers L 6-5
May 20 at LA Dodgers L 4-1
May 25 at San Diego L 12-9
June 2 at Philadelphia L 5-4
June 3 at Philadelphia L 3-2
June 7 at Florida L 8-7

Edit: Make that 19 of 37 games lost by 3 runs or less

SMcGavin
06-14-2008, 07:47 PM
"A guy got on me about him batting second, I canít have too many outs at the bottom either and give them an easy inning," Baker said.

So Dusty is hitting Janish second because he makes a lot of outs?

Spring~Fields
06-14-2008, 07:57 PM
canít have too many outs at the bottom either and give them an easy inning," Baker said. "I figured, with Junior behind him, theyíll give him something to hit

I wonder if he figures that Votto with Bako or Ross and the pitcher behind, "they'll give him something to hit" ? If Baker figures that a player with a quality batter behind him will get something to hit, does it follow then that Baker figures that without a quality batter behind a hitter that they won't give him something to hit?

KronoRed
06-14-2008, 09:54 PM
Too many outs at the bottom of the order? he's got them anyway considering the order TURNS OVER.

Blitz Dorsey
06-14-2008, 10:01 PM
Batting Griffey third is almost as bad as batting Janish second. Griffey is OPSing under .770 and just had one of the worst atbats I have EVER seen.

I concur.

SteelSD
06-14-2008, 10:32 PM
Too many outs at the bottom of the order? he's got them anyway considering the order TURNS OVER.

Shhh...Dusty's on a roll...

I swear, every time I read about Baker's interaction with a writer or announcer, all I can think of is Pootie Tang and Bob Costas. Here's how it must be for C. Trent:

Dusty Tang: "Taw me on the P-Janny in da' tootie ho!"
C. Trent: "I'm sorry, Dusty, but what?"
Dusty Tang: "P-Janny hippa tootie nah da' out to booto-o. Nah nay no eas-tay fo' da OP."
C. Trent: "What the hell are you talking about?"
Dusty Tang: "P-Janny-ay out da' botto-o inna bunty-bay fo' shore, rinna?"
C. Trent: "Oh! OH!! Bunty-bay fo' P-Janny-tay in da' tootie ho anna nah no eas-tay inny fo' OP at da' booto-o!"
Dusty Tang: "It da' may, C. Trent. It so do ditty tai see it da' may. Toothpick?"

RedlegJake
06-14-2008, 11:13 PM
Yes, and we know that with Baker he bats the CF leadoff, the SS second, and he bats Griffey third regardless of the batters skills and current ability to produce. So what does that imply about Bakers expressed comment about "easy innings" ? Am I wrong or did they say during the game last night that the Reds have lost 28 of 32 games 3 runs or less?

Apparently I misunderstood them last night. I only get 18 games lost by 3 or less runs.

18 games of the 36 games lost by 3 runs or less
Mar. 31 vs. Arizona L 4-2
Apr. 7 vs. Philadelphia L 5-3
Apr. 8 at Milwaukee L 3-2
Apr. 11 at Pittsburgh L 1-0
Apr. 12 at Pittsburgh L 4-3
Apr. 18 vs. Milwaukee L 5-2
Apr. 19 vs. Milwaukee L 5-3
Apr. 24 vs. Houston L 5-3
Apr. 25 at San Francisco L 3-1
Apr. 30 at St. Louis L 5-2
May 2 at Atlanta L 2-0
May 6 vs. Chi Cubs L 3-0
May 19 at LA Dodgers L 6-5
May 20 at LA Dodgers L 4-1
May 25 at San Diego L 12-9
June 2 at Philadelphia L 5-4
June 3 at Philadelphia L 3-2
June 7 at Florida L 8-7

Edit: Make that 19 of 37 games lost by 3 runs or less

And if you go back and check game threads and game acounts, I figure 10 of thiose games were given away by defensive or base running errors, poor fundamental play etc. If you figure that every team has a few clunkers in a season then winning just 6 of those games they should have won puts them over .500. This is a bad team because it constantly pulls bone headed plays, has players being being under utilized or badly utilized, as much as for lack of talent.

Mario-Rijo
06-14-2008, 11:16 PM
Shhh...Dusty's on a roll...

I swear, every time I read about Baker's interaction with a writer or announcer, all I can think of is Pootie Tang and Bob Costas. Here's how it must be for C. Trent:

Dusty Tang: "Taw me on the P-Janny in da' tootie ho!"
C. Trent: "I'm sorry, Dusty, but what?"
Dusty Tang: "P-Janny hippa tootie nah da' out to booto-o. Nah nay no eas-tay fo' da OP."
C. Trent: "What the hell are you talking about?"
Dusty Tang: "P-Janny-ay out da' botto-o inna bunty-bay fo' shore, rinna?"
C. Trent: "Oh! OH!! Bunty-bay fo' P-Janny-tay in da' tootie ho anna nah no eas-tay inny fo' OP at da' booto-o!"
Dusty Tang: "It da' may, C. Trent. It so do ditty tai see it da' may. Toothpick?"


:bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl:

That's so freakin' funny, and even funnier when you realize there's an actual sentence in there.

Far East
06-14-2008, 11:53 PM
From C Trent's blog
Dusty Baker said Jolbert Cabrera will get a start at shortstop sometime soon, but he didn't want it to be today...
If memory serves, Cabrera in three AB has two relatively soft but well-placed singles and one hard line out to right. If he starts and can do some of that, he might help the offense build a lead to be protected by his defensive replacement (Janish) in the later innings.

Spring~Fields
06-15-2008, 12:01 AM
And if you go back and check game threads and game acounts, I figure 10 of thiose games were given away by defensive or base running errors, poor fundamental play etc. If you figure that every team has a few clunkers in a season then winning just 6 of those games they should have won puts them over .500. This is a bad team because it constantly pulls bone headed plays, has players being being under utilized or badly utilized, as much as for lack of talent.


Cincinnati 33 37 .471 11.5 Just 5 of them and the team has taken steps forward that even a blind hog like me can see. 38 - 32 .543

SteelSD
06-15-2008, 01:27 AM
:bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl:

That's so freakin' funny, and even funnier when you realize there's an actual sentence in there.

Dusty Tang will draw you a picture of how you're gonna kick his ass, then mails it to you ten days in advance. The picture gets there right? You're goin', "What the hell is this?" and then Dusty Tang knocks on your door, promptly gets his ass kicked and still doesn't know what happened to him.

Redhook
06-15-2008, 01:37 AM
Shhh...Dusty's on a roll...

I swear, every time I read about Baker's interaction with a writer or announcer, all I can think of is Pootie Tang and Bob Costas. Here's how it must be for C. Trent:

Dusty Tang: "Taw me on the P-Janny in da' tootie ho!"
C. Trent: "I'm sorry, Dusty, but what?"
Dusty Tang: "P-Janny hippa tootie nah da' out to booto-o. Nah nay no eas-tay fo' da OP."
C. Trent: "What the hell are you talking about?"
Dusty Tang: "P-Janny-ay out da' botto-o inna bunty-bay fo' shore, rinna?"
C. Trent: "Oh! OH!! Bunty-bay fo' P-Janny-tay in da' tootie ho anna nah no eas-tay inny fo' OP at da' booto-o!"
Dusty Tang: "It da' may, C. Trent. It so do ditty tai see it da' may. Toothpick?"

Without a doubt, the funniest and most clever thing I've ever read on Redszone. Loved it!

Mario-Rijo
06-15-2008, 01:58 AM
Dusty Tang will draw you a picture of how you're gonna kick his ass, then mails it to you ten days in advance. The picture gets there right? You're goin', "What the hell is this?" and then Dusty Tang knocks on your door, promptly gets his ass kicked and still doesn't know what happened to him.

:D:thumbup:

:welcome:.....To the next 2 years.

AmarilloRed
06-15-2008, 03:19 AM
I originally underestimated just how much Janish would struggle offensively, so I will mention that first. It would be best for now if he is going to be starting at SS(and he will for the next week or so) to put him down much lower in the lineup. The concern I have is about his defense. We can keep him on the roster if he fields well even if he continues to struggle offensively, but he has struggled so far defensively. I will concede he has good range, but he has 3 errors in 67 opportunities for a .955 fielding percentage. This is a small sample size to be sure, but he will need to do better defensively if he is not to be sent down when Keppinger and Hairston return.

mth123
06-15-2008, 07:41 AM
Janish in the 2 hole is not a great idea, but this team has other issues as well. Between Janish, Bako and the pitcher there are three nearly automatic outs in the line-up. The middle of the order is hampered by a #3 hitter who can't slug anymore but is left there as a lifetime acheivement award and the main power sources are pretty streaky. The two best overall hitters appear to be the two rookies at 1B and CF.

The Reds need to get higher OBP at the top and may be able to do this without disrespecting the HOF in RF. The one remaining skill that Griffey has is a decent ability to get on base. IMO, its time to go to Griffey and ask him to be the lead-off guy. It could be phrased as an attempt to get the best hitters the most at bats. My line-up with the current configuration?

Griffey, Dunn, Bruce, EdE, Votto, Phillips, Catcher, Janish, Pitcher.

When Kepp Returns:

Griffey, Keppinger, Bruce, Dunn, EdE, Votto, Phillips, Catcher, Pitcher.

In the upcoming DH Games, Griffey DH's and with Hairston and Freel out, I'd activate Hopper and let him play CF with Bruce in RF (Hopper doesn't have the arm for RF IMO).

Griffey, Keppinger, Bruce, Dunn, EdE, Votto, Phillips, Hopper, Catcher.

The EDE, Votto, Phillips part of the order can fluctuate based on who is hot IMO. If they are all equally hot, I like Phillips speed in front of the weaker hitters. The value of stealing a base goes-up when its less likely that the guys behind him will get an extra base hit or string hits together. A steal means only a single is needed and hoping for more from the bottom of the order is a dicey gamble. OTOH, a steal in front of Dunn, Bruce, Votto etc is of less value as its just taking a chance of getting thrown out in front of an extra base hit or a HR. If those types of hits occur, he'd score from 1B anyhow.

When the DH games are over, I hope for a Griffey to the AL deal. The pitchers really need more support defensively and with a fly ball pitching staff, the RF range is the single biggest defensive problem of the many defensive problems on this team. Assuming no acquisition in return to make an impact, Hopper and eventually Hairston or Freel man CF.

Against RHP
Keppinger SS
Votto 1B
Bruce RF
Dunn LF
EDE 3B
Phillips 2B
CF
C
P

Against LHP
Keppinger SS
Bruce RF
Phillips 2B
Dunn LF
EdE 3B
Votto 1B
CF
C
P

GAC
06-15-2008, 08:05 AM
Shhh...Dusty's on a roll...

I swear, every time I read about Baker's interaction with a writer or announcer, all I can think of is Pootie Tang and Bob Costas. Here's how it must be for C. Trent:

Dusty Tang: "Taw me on the P-Janny in da' tootie ho!"
C. Trent: "I'm sorry, Dusty, but what?"
Dusty Tang: "P-Janny hippa tootie nah da' out to booto-o. Nah nay no eas-tay fo' da OP."
C. Trent: "What the hell are you talking about?"
Dusty Tang: "P-Janny-ay out da' botto-o inna bunty-bay fo' shore, rinna?"
C. Trent: "Oh! OH!! Bunty-bay fo' P-Janny-tay in da' tootie ho anna nah no eas-tay inny fo' OP at da' booto-o!"
Dusty Tang: "It da' may, C. Trent. It so do ditty tai see it da' may. Toothpick?"

Classic SD! :lol:

Maybe they need to hire Barbara Billingsley to translate? ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-xHPU6NulM

GAC
06-15-2008, 08:09 AM
"A guy got on me about him batting second, I can’t have too many outs at the bottom either and give them an easy inning," Baker said.

The again... maybe it's better when we can't understand him? Less pain. ;)

Blitz Dorsey
06-15-2008, 12:49 PM
I can't believe I used to defend Dusty. And actually I still think he has some very good qualities as a manager. But he has completely lost me with his foolish lineups. Corey Patterson leadoff, Paul Janish second and Ken Griffey Jr. third is about as bad as it gets, and he has put those players in those spots several times this season. Every once in a while a manager is going to run a bad lineup out there. It's going to happen with a 162-game schedule. But the problem with Dusty is he runs his least-effective lineup out there for the vast majority of the 162 games. It takes guys literally going on the Interstate before he realizes they are terrible. No, I take that back, Janish was under .200 last night and he still batted second. Maybe .150 is Dusty's cut-off point?

And we all know he's stuck at shortstop right now. That's not Dusty's fault. But if you are forced to start Paul Janish, you better bat him eighth. It's just amazing to me that Dusty disrespects his own lineup in the fashion that he does. How can someone who played the game and has managed the game for years not understand that you want your best hitters to come to the plate as much as possible?

Spring~Fields
06-15-2008, 01:14 PM
At least Janish isn't scheduled for the 2 hole today, thank you Dusty.
per fay blog.

KronoRed
06-15-2008, 03:44 PM
:D:thumbup:

:welcome:.....To the next 2 years.

You had to remind me :bang:

Spring~Fields
06-15-2008, 06:31 PM
Looks like Baker had a goog two hole hitter not too long ago, now his lead off hitter is struggling, maybe that lead off hitter should just go back to the two hole with Griffey behind him. :cool: