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BoCcc2832
05-21-2008, 12:35 AM
on Ken Griffey Jr.


OK, so it is time to address Griffey. Yes, I like Ken Griffey Jr. As a human being there is no better person. If all of us were half the person he is in what he does for people this world would be a much better place.

I’ve kept quiet for a long time about the postings about Griffey - even when a supposed friend accuses me of protecting him because he is a friend or some moron accusing him of giving me a car.

No. 1 - Griffey does not loaf. No, he doesn’t run hard. Why? The guy has two screws keeping his butt attached to his leg. He has had surgery on every ligament, muscle and moving part in both legs. It is a miracle he can run as fast as he does.

Nobody said he didn’t care or had a poor attitude when he was a superstar. His attitude was exactly the same then as it is now. He is not an outwardly emotional person. Does he have to jump up and down and do somersaults to show people he cares. I know he cares. Losing kills him. Not doing well, not helping his team, hurts him even more.

What do people want him to do, apologize because he isn’t hitting home runs or driving in runs?

No. 2 - He is not a cancer in the clubhouse and he is not a bad influence. He is one of the most positive guys in that room and shares his thoughts and experiences with all his teammates, young and old. He is probably the best-liked guy in the clubhouse by his teammates.

And let’s quit saying, trade him, move him to Seattle. He isn’t going. Understand that. He isn’t going. He has said he won’t go to Seattle. So it is moot and it is a waste of effort and breath to keep saying trade him.

He’ll be with the Reds the rest of the season and then he’ll be gone. The Reds aren’t likely to pick up his option.

And if I like the guy, so sue me. He has meant an awful lot to this game and meant an awful lot to scores of people he has helped - without making a big issue out of it or seeking publicity about it.

I’ve never covered a guy who likes to talk about himself less than Griffey does. Talk about other people, fine. Talk about his accomplishments? Go talk to somebody else.

Unfortunately, most baseball fans can only see the surface. What is the guy doing for me now? That’s true, to a point. Are Griffey’s skills diminished? Yes. Injuries and age have taken the inevitable toll.

But the Reds won’t take him out back and shoot him. He’ll be gone after this year and the fans who are always looking for a fall guy can turn their sights on somebody else.

And he has never bought me so much as a cup of coffee, let alone a car. Besides, I can’t drive a car, remember?

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

gilpdawg
05-21-2008, 01:00 AM
Hal is right on the money.

yab1112
05-21-2008, 01:02 AM
well said

Blue
05-21-2008, 01:08 AM
As wrong as he is about Homer, he's right on about Junior.

Scott Botkins
05-21-2008, 01:33 AM
About time someone said something, the guy will always be one of the greatest to ever wear a uniform, maybe not a Reds uniform but a baseball uniform no question about it.

Homer Bailey
05-21-2008, 01:35 AM
Didn't Junior say "It would always be nice to go back where you started?" Where has he said he won't go to Seattle?

Scott Botkins
05-21-2008, 01:37 AM
Didn't Junior say "It would always be nice to go back where you started?" Where has he said he won't go to Seattle?

Hal might be talking about a conversation he had with him personally.

Jack Burton
05-21-2008, 02:02 AM
If he's that injured than he shouldn't be playing, I got no remorse for him. Team has been terrible since he got here, and as the teams so called star, he should field much of the blame. Right now, he flat out sucks. Rats off to ya.

AccordinglyReds
05-21-2008, 03:14 AM
Great piece. It's a travesty that some point to him as being the reason for the Reds losing, and that immediately Bruce would turn around the team with Griffey out of Cincinnati right now...

Redeye fly
05-21-2008, 07:57 AM
Didn't Junior say "It would always be nice to go back where you started?" Where has he said he won't go to Seattle?

With regard to that he's talked about doing something like signing a one day contract with Seattle when he was ready to retire, so he could retire a Mariner. Kind of like Jerry Rice did with the San Francisco 49ers, and a few other players in various sports.

The interviews and comments I've read lately seem to indicate he has no real interest or desire in going back to Seattle to play. A lot of that "it would be nice to go back where you started" seemed to be an emotional response born out of the reception he got from the fans when he was back in Seattle with the Reds last year. I have little doubt it was sincere at the time, but I also have little doubt that media and fans made the comment out to be bigger than it was.

Redeye fly
05-21-2008, 08:05 AM
If he's that injured than he shouldn't be playing, I got no remorse for him. Team has been terrible since he got here, and as the teams so called star, he should field much of the blame. Right now, he flat out sucks. Rats off to ya.

You know, it would be mildly interesting to read all of your 156 posts to see if any of them have any real substance and if all of them are negative and downright nasty and mean spirited, particularly anything about Griffey.

You are either a common internet troll and no Reds fan, or else you lack the ability to separate a game and team we all love from the actual more important things in life.

aaronboonefan
05-21-2008, 08:46 AM
You know, it would be mildly interesting to read all of your 156 posts to see if any of them have any real substance and if all of them are negative and downright nasty and mean spirited, particularly anything about Griffey.

You are either a common internet troll and no Reds fan, or else you lack the ability to separate a game and team we all love from the actual more important things in life.


:beerme: Well said, I completely agree

steig
05-21-2008, 08:53 AM
You know, it would be mildly interesting to read all of your 156 posts to see if any of them have any real substance and if all of them are negative and downright nasty and mean spirited, particularly anything about Griffey.

You are either a common internet troll and no Reds fan, or else you lack the ability to separate a game and team we all love from the actual more important things in life.

Great post!

In this time with stories about Bonds and Clemens we often seem to overlook the value of Griffey being a good guy. While we know the generalities of his injuries and what has been done to his legs, I doubt many of us know what it is like to play baseball with those past injuries and with screws holding your muscles to your bones in your shoulder and legs.

DTCromer
05-21-2008, 10:07 AM
I love all the posts applauding Hal for this article.

Defending Ken Griffey Jr. = GREAT ARTICLE!
Ripping Homer = HORRIBLE WRITER! How can Hal write something like this? Despicable!

smoke6
05-21-2008, 10:09 AM
If he's that injured than he shouldn't be playing, I got no remorse for him. Team has been terrible since he got here, and as the teams so called star, he should field much of the blame. Right now, he flat out sucks. Rats off to ya.

:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

tommycash
05-21-2008, 10:13 AM
I gotta say I love Griffey, and I would make that trade over and over. I do think that after this year, though, he should move on. The only way I can see him playing is as a DH in the AL. Great article. I am sorry injuries screwed us Reds fans from so much history that could have been if Griff never got hurt.

44Magnum
05-21-2008, 10:18 AM
Jr. is hurting the team. There is no question about it. If he were a team player...he would volunteer to sit and back up Bruce.

tommycash
05-21-2008, 10:21 AM
Jr. is hurting the team. There is no question about it. If he were a team player...he would volunteer to sit and back up Bruce.

No, if Dusty had a set, he would already have Bruce up and playing in CF

Jack Burton
05-21-2008, 11:05 AM
Griffey is flat out terrible now, has been for quite some time. It's funny how many continue to throw him praise, even though he's a hindrance to this team.

Boston Red
05-21-2008, 11:09 AM
I think Griffey is great, too. Always have. I just wish he wasn't the Reds RF and 3 hole hitter anymore.

BlastFurnace
05-21-2008, 11:14 AM
What a great article by Hal McCoy. I have heard nothing but positive things about Griffey his entire career. His stay in Cincinnati has only "not met expectations" because he didn't come here, play 162 games a year, hit 50+ HR's a year, and pass Aaron...and that...sadly...is what some Reds fans thought Griffey should do. For me, I find it a blessing that I got to see the greatest CF in the past 30 years play for my favorite team.

RSNtransplant
05-21-2008, 11:32 AM
Griffey is flat out terrible now, has been for quite some time. It's funny how many continue to throw him praise, even though he's a hindrance to this team.

He hit 277/30HR and 93 RBI in 528 AB in 07 and made 8 million dollars(USA today). How many Right fielders had better numbers last year? Of all OF 7 guys had more HR, and 16 guys had more RBI, 36 guys had more ABs. How is 46 games quite some time?

44Magnum
05-21-2008, 11:39 AM
He hit 277/30HR and 93 RBI in 528 AB in 07 and made 8 million dollars(USA today). How many Right fielders had better numbers last year? Of all OF 7 guys had more HR, and 16 guys had more RBI, 36 guys had more ABs. How is 46 games quite some time?

His butchery in the OF more than made up for his production at the plate.

BLEEDS
05-21-2008, 11:44 AM
Great piece. It's a travesty that some point to him as being the reason for the Reds losing, and that immediately Bruce would turn around the team with Griffey out of Cincinnati right now...


Bruce would be an upgrade over Griffey right now, that is not even up for debate.

The other unfortunate thing is that he will be INKED in that 3 hole as long as he is on this team, which according to HAL, will be until November.

These lineups literally make me sick. Now we have JANISH batting second, because he is a SS after all, so why not get some rally-killing "productive outs" at the top of the lineup and get them out of the way. Meanwhile, the 7th spot is reserved for guys who are "struggling" to get to their career averages - as long as they don't play CF or SS...

This team would be better off without Griffey (if he was replaced by Bruce), but if he's going to be on the team, he's more of a benefit (read: less of a detriment) lower in the lineup, but that will never happen.

Just LOVED watching Griffey get walked with CF Patterson at 3rd with 1 out, so they can pitch to BP and have him hit into his patented Double Play to KILL the rally.

Luckily, we had Dunn getting his "worthless and meaningless" HR's and RBI's the previous 6 games to keep us from falling off the face of the Earth.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

ChatterRed
05-21-2008, 11:53 AM
I love Griffey, the person. I agree his abilities has diminished with age and it's sad.

He isn't holding this team back because they aren't ready to compete this year. He'll be gone next season and that's when this year's experience will pay off big time.

Redeye fly
05-21-2008, 12:22 PM
Since Griffey has been here, the pitching has been much more of a problem for this team than he could ever hope to be. Is he what he was? No, and unfortunately it's not even close. But he's still put up some pretty darned good years by most normal players standards, so for anyone to throw all their venom at him when we've had an embarrassing array of starting pitchers and relief pitchers since he's been here, some mediocre to just plain bad defensive SS's , or alternatively SS's who couldn't hit,since he's been here, no real consistent offensive threats at first or third, and sometimes average at best catchers.

But he makes so much money. Yeah, and so did Eric Milton. So did Sean Casey, good guy and all, and yes pretty good hitter, but also no power and quite good at hitting into rally killing DP's.

I wish Griffey would have put up numbers like he did with Seattle here as well, or numbers at least closer to them, and that he would have stayed healthy. Wasn't meant to be, I guess. But he's been far from the team's biggest problem or obstacle to winning, no matter how much some people seem to want to think so.

Hondo
05-21-2008, 01:19 PM
Now wasn't there a Post yesterday of why Griffey isn't piling on bunt singles... Anyone read the part where screws are holding is Buttocks to his hip and leggs...

And yes... Griffey is part of the Solution, not part of the Problem...

Walt Jocketty asked Griffey what his preferance was to do, Be traded to a Contender or Stay in Cincinnati...

Ken Griffey Jr's response:

I prefer to stay in Cincinnati and Win A Championship...

bounty37h
05-21-2008, 01:27 PM
If he's that injured than he shouldn't be playing, I got no remorse for him. Team has been terrible since he got here, and as the teams so called star, he should field much of the blame. Right now, he flat out sucks. Rats off to ya.

Jack, bitter much??

bounty37h
05-21-2008, 01:31 PM
Griffey is flat out terrible now, has been for quite some time. It's funny how many continue to throw him praise, even though he's a hindrance to this team.

Define quite some time, cause he sure had a heck of a year last year! No, he hasnt done well so far this year, but you cant say he is flat out terrible and has been for quite some time.

bounty37h
05-21-2008, 01:32 PM
His butchery in the OF more than made up for his production at the plate.

Didnt you also post on another thread that Dunns offensive production more then makes up for his butchery in the field? Which way is it?

Nuxhall41
05-21-2008, 01:54 PM
If Griffey can dive for balls in the outfield with screws holding his buttocks to his hips, he can sprint to first base a few times a game. Sorry, not buying it. Did he sprint on ground balls prior to the surgeries?

MLB overall is pretty disgusting to watch in this aspect. When you see how NFL players train year round and how 98% of them give up everything on almost each and every play, how difficult could it possibly be to get out of the box and sprint to first base a couple times a game?(I'm not a Bengal fan BTW, so some of you might see things differently:)).

I suppose it's just ingrained in MLB culture.

_Sir_Charles_
05-21-2008, 02:19 PM
A few things. First, I wouldn't say that was a "great" article by Hal. It wasn't any more insightful than many posts here on RedsZone. But I do agree with him. I find it a bit sad that he felt the need to write it though.

Secondly, I also agree with many here that Junior is about done. He IS currently hurting the team with his bat, speed and defense. But that being said, I don't think he should be benched. He deserves to work through this. He's MORE than earned that right. But that means moving him down in the lineup. And substituting for him defensively in the later stages of the game. Or pinch running for him at appropriate times. I say Junior goes...when Junior wants to go (this year I mean). It's become fairly obvious that the Reds won't pick up his option at the end of the year.

Lastly, yes Jay Bruce would be an upgrade over Junior currently. But I'm sick and tired of people thinking that Jay would have to REPLACE Junior. No, no, no. Bruce is more than capable of handling the centerfield duties. The person(s) you bench are Freel/Patterson. Not Junior. Sure, give Ken a day off a bit more often to get Freel/Patterson some AB's. But using Junior as an excuse as to why Jay's not up here is stunningly dumb IMO. I understand the Reds holding him back due to the super 2 status stuff, but if it's because of "playing time" then they're being absolute idiots.

Hondo
05-21-2008, 02:37 PM
A few things. First, I wouldn't say that was a "great" article by Hal. It wasn't any more insightful than many posts here on RedsZone. But I do agree with him. I find it a bit sad that he felt the need to write it though.

Secondly, I also agree with many here that Junior is about done. He IS currently hurting the team with his bat, speed and defense. But that being said, I don't think he should be benched. He deserves to work through this. He's MORE than earned that right. But that means moving him down in the lineup. And substituting for him defensively in the later stages of the game. Or pinch running for him at appropriate times. I say Junior goes...when Junior wants to go (this year I mean). It's become fairly obvious that the Reds won't pick up his option at the end of the year.

Lastly, yes Jay Bruce would be an upgrade over Junior currently. But I'm sick and tired of people thinking that Jay would have to REPLACE Junior. No, no, no. Bruce is more than capable of handling the centerfield duties. The person(s) you bench are Freel/Patterson. Not Junior. Sure, give Ken a day off a bit more often to get Freel/Patterson some AB's. But using Junior as an excuse as to why Jay's not up here is stunningly dumb IMO. I understand the Reds holding him back due to the super 2 status stuff, but if it's because of "playing time" then they're being absolute idiots.

I totally agree with both your points... He has earned the Right to play through this... And at any time could get hott hott hott...

Also, Jay Bruce can play CENTER... Patterson has no future in Cincinnati and why Jay Bruce isn't in Center now is a mystery, Super 2 status if thats the real reason... Shame on Cincinnati.... Besides, Patterson is making 3 Million, so I would have rather had to pay Bruce earlier than Pay Corey Patterson 3 Million for 2 1/2 Months of Dreadfull Baseball At Bats...

But anyway... The Outfield needs to be Dunn, Bruce, and Griffey...

If nothing more than to see what Happens...

Ghosts of 1990
05-21-2008, 03:04 PM
OF Should be Dunn, Bruce, Griffey then if one moves you can mix in Freel and Patterson. Patterson has been given the shot to earn the everyday job; actually he's been given the job and has done nothing to keep it. Freel is better as a utility or guy who doesn't play full time. He can spell Bruce against tough lefties.

A catcher should be traded or DFA's more likely to make room for bruce. We simply don't need all three, and to be honest as bad as Ross is you almost have to keep him because Valentin has just not played or contributed this season.

At this point, today, May 21 2008, there is NO REASON to have Bruce in the minors a day longer if you want to argue that all you care about is winning as an organization; which is what Castellini said.

I'm beating a dead horse on Bruce, a lot of us are; but that said they're kind of forcing us to. It's becoming a redundant pattern for Bruce to have a big game in the minors and us (despite the win streak) to do little or nothing on offense.

I(heart)Freel
05-21-2008, 03:05 PM
An interesting stat breakdown determining if Junior is in a downward trend or if he's just off to a bad start.

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/fantasy/story/10834756

I'll save everyone the trouble of clicking and just say Junior had a good to great 2007. So why not show some patience in 2008?

Jack Burton
05-21-2008, 03:30 PM
So let me get this straight, there are still Reds fans that want Griffey to be our everyday RF'er?

BLEEDS
05-21-2008, 03:31 PM
But I'm sick and tired of people thinking that Jay would have to REPLACE Junior. No, no, no. Bruce is more than capable of handling the centerfield duties. The person(s) you bench are Freel/Patterson. Not Junior. Sure, give Ken a day off a bit more often to get Freel/Patterson some AB's. But using Junior as an excuse as to why Jay's not up here is stunningly dumb IMO. I understand the Reds holding him back due to the super 2 status stuff, but if it's because of "playing time" then they're being absolute idiots.

If by "they" and "people" you mean the owner and the General Manager, then feel free to send them an e-mail showing your disgust. CC Dusty Baker while you're at it. THEY'RE the ones saying it's a Playing Time issue.

However, there is NO WAY in heck this team is going to put a Dunn/Bruce/Griffey OF out there for any length of time. The offensive improvement would be offset by the Horrid Defense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Hondo
05-21-2008, 03:38 PM
If by "they" and "people" you mean the owner and the General Manager, then feel free to send them an e-mail showing your disgust. CC Dusty Baker while you're at it. THEY'RE the ones saying it's a Playing Time issue.

However, there is NO WAY in heck this team is going to put a Dunn/Bruce/Griffey OF out there for any length of time. The offensive improvement would be offset by the Horrid Defense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

What position is Jay Bruce playing in AAA?

ChatterRed
05-21-2008, 03:53 PM
If by "they" and "people" you mean the owner and the General Manager, then feel free to send them an e-mail showing your disgust. CC Dusty Baker while you're at it. THEY'RE the ones saying it's a Playing Time issue.

However, there is NO WAY in heck this team is going to put a Dunn/Bruce/Griffey OF out there for any length of time. The offensive improvement would be offset by the Horrid Defense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I hope you're not including Bruce in that "horrid defense" comment? :thumbdown

Va Red Fan
05-21-2008, 04:22 PM
If he's that injured than he shouldn't be playing, I got no remorse for him. Team has been terrible since he got here, and as the teams so called star, he should field much of the blame. Right now, he flat out sucks. Rats off to ya.

Excuse me? One of the greatest baseball players ever does not deserve that kind of nonsense. KGJ has not been the savior we were looking for, but he has given great effort and deserves to be seen as a fine player who wanted to come home and do something special. It is not his fault that things didn't work out. Injuries, sub-par supporting cast and horrific pitching have been the primary problems.

He doesn't suck! He may not be the shining star we want him to be, but he is almost 39 and plays a solid game. He plays hard. He is worthy of our respect.

BLEEDS
05-21-2008, 05:08 PM
I hope you're not including Bruce in that "horrid defense" comment? :thumbdown

Well, unless you think Bruce is a better CF-er than Corey Patterson, you'd have to agree that the OVERALL DEFENSE gets WORSE with that change.

Putting Bruce in RF for Griffey would be an improvement, in RF.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
05-21-2008, 05:12 PM
What position is Jay Bruce playing in AAA?

Who cares. He is shoe-horned for RF in the Majors.

Look, it's not me and my personal agenda. Pay attention to the team, read what Dusty Baker said (and doesn't say) in Spring Training, read what Cast and Jocketty say now. He's not joining the Reds to play CF. Period.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

James B.
05-21-2008, 06:05 PM
So let me get this straight, there are still Reds fans that want Griffey to be our everyday RF'er?


Thats right!:thumbup:

muethibp
05-21-2008, 07:17 PM
I take no issue with what Hal says, it all seems relatively uncontroversial. But, really take a look at what Hal said and didn't say. He said (significant paraphrasing) that Jr. doesn't have an attitude problem; if it looks like he's loafing it, he's not, it's just his body doing what it can do at this point; he's not going to accept a trade; he's meant a lot to the team; he's had a great career.

None of Hal's core statements are in conflict with what I understand Jr.'s most vocal critics to be saying. I hear them saying that at this moment he's not a 3 hole hitter, that his offensive contribution is limited, he's not particularly good in the field, he's playing the position that should be occupied by the consensus best prospect in baseball, and that Jr.'s defense is so suspect at this point that we need a rangy CF to make up for that, which eliminates Bruce as an option in CF.

So, the way I read it, Hal's article stands for the notion that Jr. is a good guy and deserves respect. But I don't think it says or suggests that Jr. can be a valuable player at this point or should be starting in RF or should be batting third if in the lineup.

bigred97
05-21-2008, 07:48 PM
I have no problems with Griffey, but it would be stupid not to trade him if we are not planning on resigning him next year.

Hondo
05-21-2008, 08:10 PM
I have no problems with Griffey, but it would be stupid not to trade him if we are not planning on resigning him next year.

I was just as soon the Reds Trade Edwin Encarncion and Homer Bailey for Someone this team can use...

Either Pick up or Renogotiate Juniors option so he costs around 10 Million.

Aquire or Sign a Power Hitting 3RD Baseman, and a Right Handed Hitting Catcher...

The Have your Third Baseman hit 4th between Griffey and Dunn...

redsfanmia
05-21-2008, 08:19 PM
Who cares. He is shoe-horned for RF in the Majors.

Look, it's not me and my personal agenda. Pay attention to the team, read what Dusty Baker said (and doesn't say) in Spring Training, read what Cast and Jocketty say now. He's not joining the Reds to play CF. Period.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

The minor leagues to develop players for the major league team so why would Bruce be playing center if he was not able to play it in majors?

Hondo
05-21-2008, 08:22 PM
The minor leagues to develop players for the major league team so why would Bruce be playing center if he was not able to play it in majors?

Redsfanmia, I wanted to say the same thing, but the Post says "Who cares", so it's almost impossible to out debate "who cares" or reason with it...

But I think BLEEDS is still a Great Poster!

:thumbup:

tommycash
05-21-2008, 10:46 PM
If by "they" and "people" you mean the owner and the General Manager, then feel free to send them an e-mail showing your disgust. CC Dusty Baker while you're at it. THEY'RE the ones saying it's a Playing Time issue.

However, there is NO WAY in heck this team is going to put a Dunn/Bruce/Griffey OF out there for any length of time. The offensive improvement would be offset by the Horrid Defense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Usually Bleeds, I agree with you on many topics, but not this one. If the owner and general manager did not want Bruce in CF, then they would tell AAA to play him strictly in RF. All coaches are under control of the Reds so Dusty, Wayne, and especially Bob can tell AAA to play him wherever they want. So Chris Dickerson is in AAA and he is not a bad CF, but he is not playing the everyday CF. So why can't Bruce play in CF. He is a 4 tool player as well. He has speed and an arm, so why are people so quick to dismiss him as a CF for the Reds.

gedred69
05-21-2008, 10:58 PM
It is so simple that even mutton-heads should see. Jay Bruce is being robbed of valuable MLB experience, that could constitute producing a true contending team next year. I don't care if it's RF, CF, LF. He needs to be up here playing everyday........ Period. Griffey fans, Dunn fans, or Baker's love affair w/Patterson, be damned. Somewhere, somehow, Jay Bruce should be in the line-up tonight, and everynight for the foreseable future. He could well be this team's re-enactment of a young Griffey Jr. Give him the chance.

DTCromer
05-22-2008, 01:02 AM
So how long until Ken leaves this team? Everyone's waiting.

I(heart)Freel
05-22-2008, 08:16 AM
Fay talked Jocketty in LA after Walt took a trip to Louisville. Fay's prediction is Bruce in Cincinnati next week.

Who do you think he replaces - a historically crummy speedster OR a guy trying to make history?

Look for a Freel-Bruce platoon for a while, to break the kid in slowly.

Ghosts of 1990
05-22-2008, 09:07 AM
Fay talked Jocketty in LA after Walt took a trip to Louisville. Fay's prediction is Bruce in Cincinnati next week.

Who do you think he replaces - a historically crummy speedster OR a guy trying to make history?

Look for a Freel-Bruce platoon for a while, to break the kid in slowly.

He will replace Patterson short of something miraculous happening.

Watch this week, Patterson will get a ton of at-bats to try and save his job from Baker... just watch. Patterson will play all 4 or 3 of 4 in San Diego. I know many were surprised he played over Freel in LA the last 2 games.

Dusty's trying to give Patterson a last ditch attempt to save his job. If Patterson would not play these next 4 games he wouldn't be able to save himself.

It'll be Bruce in CF after monday.

DTCromer
05-22-2008, 09:27 AM
Bruce will not be in CIncinnati next week unless he clears Super 2 status by then.

Ghosts of 1990
05-22-2008, 09:32 AM
Bruce will not be in CIncinnati next week unless he clears Super 2 status by then.

So I take it you don't buy what Jocketty says? That the Super-2 has nothing to do with it?

Last night Jocketty said that he didn't even know when the date was.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/05/21/ddn052208spreds.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=35

DTCromer
05-22-2008, 09:34 AM
So I take it you don't buy what Jocketty says? That the Super-2 has nothing to do with it?

Last night Jocketty said that he didn't even know when the date was.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/05/21/ddn052208spreds.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=35

If they're not worried about Super 2, then he'll be here Monday.

I just thought his Super 2 status cleared in early June. I also find it hard to believe they don't know when his S-2 status is.

OldRed1966
05-22-2008, 10:06 AM
He will replace Patterson short of something miraculous happening.

Watch this week, Patterson will get a ton of at-bats to try and save his job from Baker... just watch. Patterson will play all 4 or 3 of 4 in San Diego. I know many were surprised he played over Freel in LA the last 2 games.

Dusty's trying to give Patterson a last ditch attempt to save his job. If Patterson would not play these next 4 games he wouldn't be able to save himself.

It'll be Bruce in CF after monday.


The Reds face three lefties in San Diego. If Patterson is in the lineup for those 3 games, then Freel should walk up to Dusty and punch him in the mouth.

Ghosts of 1990
05-22-2008, 11:02 AM
If they're not worried about Super 2, then he'll be here Monday.

I just thought his Super 2 status cleared in early June. I also find it hard to believe they don't know when his S-2 status is.

I know me too

BLEEDS
05-22-2008, 11:41 AM
I would love to be wrong. I just don't think I will be.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
05-22-2008, 03:58 PM
To add fuel to the fire (from the ORG):

As the writers and fans alike clamor with the question of why isn’t Bruce getting the call up, the answers might be found in a grocery list of choices and decisions.

Four of the outfielders are under contract for amounts ranging from 3 million plus to 13 million, numbers that make financial and investor types cringe, super two dollars seem to be a hometown discount when considering the present payroll expense accompanied by the reduction of attendance. In addition, Reds management made some type of commitment to Hairston and Hopper. Six outfielders, these outfielders consume a large portion of their budget, position players where even the banana phone elite can point out their blemishes and flaws either in the field or at the plate because it is so obvious that none of them can either hit or field at the same time in one package.

Six of the thirteen position players that Red’s management carry are left handed bats. Even Valentin hits better from the left side. Valentin a guy that needs to somehow vanish like Hopper and the majority of those left handed bats perform poorly against left handed pitching. The Reds have one qualified center fielder who is left handed and can’t hit. They have two other outfielders who can or used to hit but can’t field, and two first basemen who are left handed and saddled to first base because they can’t play any other position. One of those left handed bats flashes some numbers that indicates that he might hit left handed pitching on a given night while that left handed pitching snuffs out the Reds like rain upon a candle.

Money, the past of a fading star, and management’s ego over their previous decisions and escalation in commitment to those previous choices is standing in the way of a better judgment call, Bruce.

A Bruce who can actually field all three outfield positions, not just one, unlike the alleged current “options” for a team that has pitching that is desperately calling out for a greater defense behind it and some offensive support in front of it. A Bruce that can actually hit left handed pitching with ridiculous numbers warranting an opportunity at the current tune of .400 .396 .720 1.116 against left handed pitching; yet his plate discipline and bat control is in question, numbers that many of the Reds fans had hoped for in the coming of Bruce, fielding and hitting in one young low cost package, a package that many Reds fans are dreaming of today. Has anyone mentioned that Bruce is an athlete participating in an athletic competition and can actually move?

This young pup has eight stolen bases, caught once, nine doubles and five triples, five triples! To compliment that OPS, he actually has some legs to cover the territory that comes with his field of endeavor, contrary to the rumor of a history of leg problems that the manager attempted to promote at a time when it became convenient to secure his current or primary lead-off hitter who couldn’t draw OBP in the dust at the plate with his bat let alone hit for a respectable OBP.

A “young pup” who has the burden of overcoming an age bias within management over the old goats grazing off of a limited Red’s payroll in management and on the field who consume yet don’t produce up to the standards that a winning Reds team desperately needs. The fans who actually pay for all of the freight are getting fleeced, while being compelled to consume an inferior and poor product sprinkled with some management propaganda once again when they know that if the boss, the power and authority, actually wants to get something done, the boss can do it.

I long to see what a Dunn, Phillips, Encarcion and a Votto might be and do with a complimentary cast surrounding them, a team of winners.

GoReds33
05-22-2008, 04:56 PM
All of us are so caught up in the "bring Jay Bruce up" fiasco. Leave it to Hal to screw our heads back on straight. If Griffey heats up, and Dunn cools down again, everybody will want him gone so Bruce can play left. We've just been trying to find a spot for Jay Bruce.

_Sir_Charles_
05-22-2008, 05:59 PM
If by "they" and "people" you mean the owner and the General Manager, then feel free to send them an e-mail showing your disgust. CC Dusty Baker while you're at it. THEY'RE the ones saying it's a Playing Time issue.

However, there is NO WAY in heck this team is going to put a Dunn/Bruce/Griffey OF out there for any length of time. The offensive improvement would be offset by the Horrid Defense.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

The first part "people" referred to bloggers, posters here and the media. The second part "they" is referring to the Reds F.O.

But...in regards to the Horrid Defense comment...I respectfully disagree. Yes, Corey Patterson is a nice defensive player. But he's been splitting time with Ryan Freel...who's a horrible defensive player. Yes, he hustles...but his decision making is like that of a little leaguer. Dunn is playing a MUCH better defense this year. Scoff if you want to, but watch him. It's a fact. Bruce is a VERY good outfielder (any of the 3 slots). He doesn't have the speed of Patterson, but he makes quicker reads on the ball. But regardless, 100% of Bruce is better than 50% of Patterson and 50% of Freel.

In a perfect world, yes...Bruce would replace Junior in Right. But that's just not going to happen (unless they manage to swing a trade...and Junior okay's it), so let's deal with the real world.

And just remember...the outfield of Dunn/Bruce/Griffey for "any length of time" would be for THIS year only. I have a hunch that Dunn will get resigned and it's pretty obvious that Junior's option won't get picked up. But however we go next year, Jay's GOT to get some playing time in the bigs under his belt THIS year.

_Sir_Charles_
05-22-2008, 06:01 PM
Well, unless you think Bruce is a better CF-er than Corey Patterson, you'd have to agree that the OVERALL DEFENSE gets WORSE with that change.

Putting Bruce in RF for Griffey would be an improvement, in RF.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

You're forgetting that Corey is splitting time with Freel. Bruce is an improvement over that DUO. But regardless, I don't care how great Patterson's defense is or not...his bat makes him unplayable at this point. Freel's head makes him unSTARTable. :O)

BLEEDS
05-22-2008, 08:18 PM
You're forgetting that Corey is splitting time with Freel. Bruce is an improvement over that DUO. But regardless, I don't care how great Patterson's defense is or not...his bat makes him unplayable at this point. Freel's head makes him unSTARTable. :O)

I hear ya. However, you're forgetting that CFP and RFF both account for about $7M in payroll. They've already swallowed enough payroll this year, I think they're done eating.

Like I said, my comment is more in regards to Griffey playing - and remaining - in RF, that makes our OF horrid. I'm not sure they'd (in your reference) want to live with Bruce in CF, but I'd love to see it personally, but I don't see it happening, not with all the variables involved.

The best we can hope for is to DREAM of what our lineup might be for 2009...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

_Sir_Charles_
05-22-2008, 08:30 PM
Unfortunately, I agree with you about them swallowing more payroll. But considering the fact that Jocketty hasn't suggested any of that "yet" might make it slightly palletable to Cast. Freel I can live with. He's a very versatile backup. Both IF and OF with good speed and a decent bat. Him I keep...I just don't START him. Patterson...*sigh*...somehow, someway we've just GOT to jettison him.