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membengal
05-21-2008, 10:35 AM
In an effort to take this discussion (potential trades in general) in a slightly different direction (other than trade Jr! trade Dunn! trade whomever!), I wonder if we might use this space to murmur about potential targets off the beaten path.

Let me toss one out for criticism (illumine me if you know why this is a bad thought) or discussion:

Catcher Max Ramirez in the Rangers organization.

He is 23 years old (will not be 24 until November), and playing at AA. Ahead of him in the organization are Laird, Salty, and Teagarden (in theory). Ramirez at AA this year?

146 at bats (in 41 games) .377/.450/.658 That leads to an eye-popping 1.108 OPS. 9 homeruns. He's struck out 35 times and drawn 20 walks.

His baseball cube entry is here:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/Maximiliano-Ramirez.shtml

He participated in the 2007 Futures Game for the World Team.

Anywho, I am NOT one of the experts we have on this board with regard to minor league stuff, in terms of projectability and what not. What I do notice with this guy is that he has put up OPS' in the .900 neighborhood for a few years, is raking this year, and is behind a number of catchers in the Rangers organization. An organization that is desperate for pitching.

IF this guy is a decent prospect, and on the surface he appears to be, this is the kind of player that I hope Walt J. and the scouts are noticing and targeting. I would imagine there is a fit between these two orgaizations, and clearly the Rangers and Reds should trust each other given how happy each is with Hamilton and Volquez.

That's my initial suggestion.

Others? Anyone off the beaten path you would like the Reds to think about targeting?

Feel free to tell me why my initial suggestion is dumb or, perhaps, not a dumb suggestion. Or ignore. Or what not.

But I would love to see them find someone like this.

flyer85
05-21-2008, 10:40 AM
The question that seems to pop up with him is about his ability to stay at catcher in the majors from a defensive standpoint.

membengal
05-21-2008, 10:41 AM
Thanks, flyer. I was wondering about defense. Because the stick appears insane.

Will M
05-21-2008, 11:01 AM
Mets Shopping Aaron Heilman?
Adam Rubin of the New York Daily News is hearing buzz from scouts that the Mets are shopping 29 year-old reliever Aaron Heilman. Heilman has a career best strikeout rate in 22.2 innings, but everything else has gone haywire (control, home runs and hits allowed).

Rubin says the Mets are looking for a setup man in return. It seems that the best fit would be with a noncontending team that would switch Heilman back to starting. The Nationals (Jon Rauch), Reds (David Weathers), and Pirates (Damaso Marte, John Grabow) might have decent relievers available. Not sure if they'd have interest in Heilman, though.

Heilman will be arbitration-eligible in 2009 and 2010 and will reach free agency after that.

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 11:02 AM
He's undersized as well (I think he's only 5-7) which is another reason he might be a bit underrated. Even more reason for us to jump on this now. His value will only go up from here. Our current catchers like Ross aren't good defensively or offensively. If Max Ramirez is good offensively (and he is) he will already have them trumped in one area. As long as he is average defensively I think they should go after him.

Will M
05-21-2008, 11:02 AM
Thanks, flyer. I was wondering about defense. Because the stick appears insane.

The Reds need a catcher for the future. Ross/Bako seems ok for this year but I expect Bako to regress and Ross can't hit. I'd like Walt to try to find some 'under the radar' young catcher who can play defense and hit .250

flyer85
05-21-2008, 11:06 AM
I'd trade any 2 relievers the Mets wanted(other than Burton and Cordero). How about Weathers and Affeldt for Heilman.

Stuff wise there is nothing wrong with Heilman, just going through a rough spot IMO.

klw
05-21-2008, 11:09 AM
Here is a discussion of the Lofton- Max Ramirez trade from last summer.


http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/trade-central/2007/264566.html



Ramirez is nearly as familiar with the trade deadline deal as Lofton; this is his second. Last year, the Braves traded him to the Indians for Bob Wickman on July 20. This year with high Class A Kinston, he was hitting .303/.418/.505 with 12 home runs, one shy of his career high (13, last year). He's patient--he just won Best Strike Zone Judgment in our 2007 Best Tools survey of the Carolina League--but will strike out. Defensively, his footwork needs to improve, but he's shown better ability to receive, throw (wiping out 29 percent of opposing basestealers) and handle a pitching staff.

OnBaseMachine
05-21-2008, 11:23 AM
He's undersized as well (I think he's only 5-7) which is another reason he might be a bit underrated. Even more reason for us to jump on this now. His value will only go up from here. Our current catchers like Ross aren't good defensively or offensively. If Max Ramirez is good offensively (and he is) he will already have them trumped in one area. As long as he is average defensively I think they should go after him.

Ramirez is 5-11, 175.

RedsManRick
05-21-2008, 11:27 AM
I'd be all over Heilman if he's really available.

lollipopcurve
05-21-2008, 11:38 AM
I like Heilman for Weathers plus a C+/B- prospect (system is full of them). Heilman's the type of guy St Louis would turn into a solid 3rd/4th starter. Decent stuff, keeps it down. Would put the Reds pen in some flux, but you have to figure there's somebody on the farm, whether it be Lehr, Adkins, Roenicke, Herrera or whoever, who could provide decent middle relief. The possible upside of converting Heilman successfully is too good not to make an effort to acquire him, if all they're looking for is set-up relief.

Blitz Dorsey
05-21-2008, 12:09 PM
Here is a discussion of the Lofton- Max Ramirez trade from last summer.


http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/trade-central/2007/264566.html

There you go, sounds like he's not bad defensively at all. I bet the Rangers end up keeping Ramirez and trading another one of their catchers (or two) but if he's available, Jocketty needs to be knocking down some doors to figure out what he needs to do to bring him to Cincinnati. Did I mention I'm sick of running sub-par catchers out there every year like Dave Ross and Jason "Interstate Love Song" LaRue? At least Bako has surprised this year (kind of like Ross did in 2006) but we need a long-term answer. Hopefully the really long-term answer is Mesoraco, but in the meantime, we need someone in their early 20's like Ramirez who will be ready to take over full-time in 2009. The rest of this year it will be Ross and Bako (with a dash of Javy mixed in) but Jocketty needs to improve the position for next year and the years beyond.

Highlifeman21
05-21-2008, 02:54 PM
I'd trade any 2 relievers the Mets wanted(other than Burton and Cordero). How about Weathers and Affeldt for Heilman.

Stuff wise there is nothing wrong with Heilman, just going through a rough spot IMO.

I've wanted Heilman to anchor the back of our rotation for years now.

Apparently the Mets are just throwing cash at him to get him to shut up about the fact that he wants to start, rather than come out of the pen.

Heilman would certainly be a welcomed addition to our staff, and I have a feeling it honestly might only cost us Weathers, Affeldt and maybe another piece (maybe Hopper, once he's healthy?).

membengal
05-21-2008, 03:37 PM
I like the Heilman idea as well. He is someone with plus stuff who would be very interesting to give another shot in a rotation.

Dan
05-21-2008, 04:37 PM
Randy Wolfe from the Padres would make an interesting pick up. Unfortunately he'd be overpriced, and I wouldn't overpay for him considering he's coming off recent shoulder surgery and there's no telling how long or if his arm will hold up. Still he'd make a nice LH addition to the rotation.

*BaseClogger*
05-21-2008, 04:39 PM
his splits between starter/reliever remind me of Jeremy Affeldt...

*BaseClogger*
05-21-2008, 04:40 PM
Randy Wolfe from the Padres would make an interesting pick up. Unfortunately he'd be overpriced, and I wouldn't overpay for him considering he's coming off recent shoulder surgery and there's no telling how long or if his arm will hold up. Still he'd make a nice LH addition to the rotation.

extreme FB pitcher

TRF
05-21-2008, 07:33 PM
To this day I'll never understand why the Reds gave up on Miguel Perez. It's not like they had better options.

Highlifeman21
05-21-2008, 07:43 PM
To this day I'll never understand why the Reds gave up on Miguel Perez. It's not like they had better options.

That can be said about a lot of Reds since 2005-ish.

Big Klu
05-21-2008, 08:27 PM
Where is Miguel Perez nowadays?

JaxRed
05-21-2008, 08:46 PM
Injured in AA for Pirates only has 20 at bats on season. I bookmark some old Reds minor leaguers over at Minor League Baseball.com (nice feature). Zach Ward has some nice stats this year at AA

mth123
05-22-2008, 04:57 AM
Saw this over at MLB TRaderumors about catchers that may be hitting the market.




Ramon Hernandez, Orioles. The O's are playing surprisingly well, but Hernandez is not hitting. He makes $7.5MM this year, $8MM in '09, and has an $8.5MM option for '10 with a $1MM buyout. I imagine the Orioles would like to move that contract.
Gerald Laird, Rangers. The Rangers aren't out of contention quite yet. When they are, it'll be time for Laird to step aside for Jarrod Saltalamacchia. Laird, a Boras client, is under team control through 2010. He's having an improved year at the plate.
Ronny Paulino, Pirates. Once Ryan Doumit returns in June, the Bucs can at least consider moving Paulino.
Paul Lo Duca and Johnny Estrada, Nationals. Couple of bad signings...if either veteran returns to health he could be traded for scraps.
Paul Bako and Javier Valentin, Reds. Bako had a nice April and is hitting well above his career norm.
Yorvit Torrealba, Rockies. With Chris Iannetta seemingly living up to his potential, Torrealba becomes a relatively pricey luxury.
Bengie Molina, Giants. He's a solid bat and is signed for '09 at $6MM.
Michael Barrett, Padres. Currently on a rehab assignment, Barrett could be one of several veterans purged by the Padres.


Of that group, I like Paulino and Bengie Molina the best. I like Laird, but the Boras connection has me wondering if the Reds would even consider him. Hernandez seems to have declined significantly to the point that I wouldn't take a chance unless the Orioles would pick up all but the minimum of his dollars and take only a fringe prospect for him. Torrealba would probably be an upgrade, but I wouldn't give up much for him. No interest in the others IMO.

Other than getting Griffey out of RF, which the Reds have the in house ability to do at any time, purging David Ross (and the perceived need for David Ross) should be at the top of this team's to do list.

PuffyPig
05-22-2008, 09:26 AM
Other than getting Griffey out of RF, which the Reds have the in house ability to do at any time, purging David Ross (and the perceived need for David Ross) should be at the top of this team's to do list.


I'd get rid of Valetin way before Ross. Both stink, but at least Ross can hit LH pitchers, something we need with Bako.

Will M
05-22-2008, 10:19 AM
Coco Crisp plays gold glove defense in CF and has a career OPS of .740

He has been rumored to be available since last winter.

I think his salary has been a deterent in trading him.

PuffyPig
05-22-2008, 11:11 AM
Coco Crisp plays gold glove defense in CF and has a career OPS of .740



FWIW, that's not much better than Patterson.

Falls City Beer
05-22-2008, 12:19 PM
I agree with the Randy Wolf suggestion. I wouldn't give up much to get him, but he'd represent a substantial improvement over Belisle, and even some improvement over Arroyo.

But most of all, it would allow the Reds to demote Cueto to the pen, where he really needs to be.

WebScorpion
05-22-2008, 12:37 PM
I agree with the Randy Wolf suggestion. I wouldn't give up much to get him, but he'd represent a substantial improvement over Belisle, and even some improvement over Arroyo.

But most of all, it would allow the Reds to demote Cueto to the pen, where he really needs to be.
...and he's a lefty to break up our righties. He'd probably be hard to time coming after Volquez.

Harang
Volquez
Wolf
Cueto
Arroyo

That's the way I'd set them up. :thumbup:
I'd send Belisle to the 'pen and see if he can turn it up a notch for shorter outings as many pitchers do.

flyer85
05-22-2008, 12:41 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds make a play at Pelfrey/Heilman of the Mets. I see Pelfrey as a back of the bullpen guy and Heilman a starter. The Reds could match up well as a trading partner, hopefully Arroyo will pitch great on Sunday and they could send him as a part of a deal to the Mets.

Falls City Beer
05-22-2008, 12:46 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds make a play at Pelfrey/Heilman of the Mets. I see Pelfrey as a back of the bullpen guy and Heilman a starter. The Reds could match up well as a trading partner, hopefully Arroyo will pitch great on Sunday and they could send him as a part of a deal to the Mets.

I'm not all that impressed with Heilman. Especially as a starter. About the best thing he's got going for him is that he's been reasonably healthy. It would be nice to shed Arroyo's contract future for him, but I don't think that in terms of talent Heilman represents an improvement over Arroyo as a starter.

flyer85
05-22-2008, 12:51 PM
I'm not all that impressed with Heilman. Especially as a starter. About the best thing he's got going for him is that he's been reasonably healthy. It would be nice to shed Arroyo's contract future for him, but I don't think that in terms of talent Heilman represents an improvement over Arroyo as a starter.without a doubt Heilman and Pelfrey are quality arms who I think are being used improperly. Pelfrey currently lacks the command to succeed as a starter and Heilman has the stuff to succeed as a starter, he just hasn't been given the chance.

buckeyenut
05-22-2008, 08:57 PM
FWIW, that's not much better than Patterson.

That is correct. The difference is, Crisp's OPS is more OBP driven than Patterson. Patterson's OPS is fine for a 7 hitter who plays great defense. Crisp could potentially serve as a leadoff hitter who plays great defense. His OBP is 30 points higher appx.

PuffyPig
05-22-2008, 09:41 PM
That is correct. The difference is, Crisp's OPS is more OBP driven than Patterson. Patterson's OPS is fine for a 7 hitter who plays great defense. Crisp could potentially serve as a leadoff hitter who plays great defense. His OBP is 30 points higher appx.


Oh Crisp is a much better lead off hitter than Paterson, but his OBA over the last 3 years is about .320, so he's also a poor choice at the top of the line up.

mth123
05-23-2008, 06:11 AM
I'd get rid of Valetin way before Ross. Both stink, but at least Ross can hit LH pitchers, something we need with Bako.

Except Valentin is a better bench player and since I really don't want to see either of them ever in the line-up again, I'd rather keep the better bench player.

jojo
05-23-2008, 08:00 AM
Here's an idea that was floated by Dave Cameron at USSM...

Votto+ for Jeff Clement.

Both project to be basically slightly above average first baseman/DH but Clement could become the Victor Martinez of the senior circuit if allowed to catch (currently he's been blocked by some old Japanese speaking fellow signing a multi-year extension in Seattle).

The plus could probably be a good pen prospect (a guy with a legit chance to be a valuable major leaguer much sooner than later-i.e. ETA '09) IMHO.

Anyway, it's an interesting thought that might stimulate some good debate/discussion.

edabbs44
05-23-2008, 08:03 AM
Here's an idea that was floated by Dave Cameron at USSM...

Votto+ for Jeff Clement.

Both project to be basically slightly above average first baseman/DH but Clement could become the Victor Martinez of the senior circuit if allowed to catch (currently he's been blocked by some old Japanese speaking fellow signing a multi-year extension in Seattle).

The plus could probably be a good pen prospect (a guy with a legit chance to be a valuable major leaguer much sooner than later-i.e. ETA '09) IMHO.

Anyway, it's an interesting thought that might stimulate some good debate/discussion.

If they locked up Dunn and he agreed to play first (and they believe he would be an adequate defender there) then this might make sense.

jojo
05-23-2008, 08:09 AM
If they locked up Dunn and he agreed to play first (and they believe he would be an adequate defender there) then this might make sense.

I think that all it takes to make a lot sense for the Reds would be if they let him develop as a catcher (with the caveat that he can play the position adequately of course).

blumj
05-23-2008, 08:14 AM
Oh Crisp is a much better lead off hitter than Paterson, but his OBA over the last 3 years is about .320, so he's also a poor choice at the top of the line up.
They're really still in no hurry to trade him, anyway. In fact, I'd even suggest that the way the Sox rotate their OFers would be a good model for the Reds to follow if they called up Bruce and managed to cut back to having only 4 regular OFers to juggle.

klw
05-23-2008, 04:00 PM
Ramirez tops this weeks BA prospect hot sheet
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/prospect-hot-sheet/2008/266140.html

membengal
05-24-2008, 04:41 PM
KLW:

Shows what I know.

Guess he's not "off the radar".

jojo
05-24-2008, 05:26 PM
KLW:

Shows what I know.


It just means you could work for BA..... :cool:

membengal
05-24-2008, 06:29 PM
Swizzle.

OnBaseMachine
05-24-2008, 06:37 PM
While Shapiro concedes that major trades don't usually occur so early in the season, he's already apparently ready to consider all options:

"We will get on the phone with every team in the league, although sometimes a trade of magnitude comes down the road. We will explore everything at this point."

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

RedsManRick
05-24-2008, 08:04 PM
The Indians' corner OF are David Dellucci, Franklin Gutierrez, and Ben Fransisco. Think Shapiro is going to ask about Dunn?