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_Sir_Charles_
05-22-2008, 04:44 PM
Okay guys, I think it's becoming pretty obvious that the Reds will be calling up Jay Bruce within the next week. Let's zoom forward until then and try to figure out what they're going to do with him and the rest of the team.

First off, what postition does he play? I've heard dozens and dozens of people say that he's "projected" as a right fielder. So does he play there and we bench Junior? I certainly don't see Junior moving back to centerfield. Also, if it's so certain that Jay's a rightfielder...why in the world have the Reds played him out of position so much in Louisville?

So far this year, Jay has played...
Right-field: 9 starts
Left-field: 8 starts
D.H.: 2 starts
day off/pinch hit: 3 times
Center-field: 25 starts!!!

For a guy who's supposedly not a centerfielder, he sure is being treated as one.

So instead of following the "projected" route...let's follow along with what the Reds are doing with him. Jay will play Centerfield for the Reds. That means Patterson/Freel combo sits instead of Junior. So, Dunn in left, Bruce in center and Junior in right. Hopefully it'll play out better than it sounds.

So, now that the defense is situated, now we've got the lineup to consider. Without Freel, Patterson or Keppinger starting...who's leading off and why?

Personally, I'd lean towards something like this....

(RH) 2B Phillips
(LH) LF Dunn
(LH) CF Bruce
(RH) 3B Encarnacion
(LH) 1B Votto
(LH) RF Griffey
(RH) SS Janish
(LH) C Bako
Pitchers spot

Without a true leadoff hitter, I think we need to at least minimize our hitters' shortcomings. Brandon loves to line into DP's. Leading off will minimize that. Dunn's OBP needs to be MUCH higher up in the lineup. Personally, I'd love to see Adam leading off...but I think that's too much of a drastic leap for many here. In regards to the clean up slot, there are 2 players who I don't want to put there. Phillips and Bruce. I know how Brandon hits from that spot and he simply tries to hit the longball way too much. It takes him out of his normal hitting style. As for Jay, I just don't want to put a high amount of pressure on the rookie this early (which is also why I don't put him in the leadoff spot either). I don't mind Joey in the #4 hole, but I think Edwin's a better fit for it. I originally had Bako hitting 7th and Janish hitting 8th, but I didn't like the run of 3 straight lefties of Votto, Griffey and Bako, so I swapped the Paul's.

I know this topic will get rehashed over and over again in the coming days, I just figured maybe this will limit the talk to one thread...but I doubt it. :O) Anyway, how do YOU see this club a week from now?

--------------------
Oops, one last thing. With Jay coming up...who is shown the door? Patterson? Valentine? Ross? Hairston to DL?

Homer Bailey
05-22-2008, 04:49 PM
Phillips at leadoff would be a disaster. That being said I don't know who else to put there right now.

Chris Sabowned
05-22-2008, 04:53 PM
I don't think Hairston would go to the DL for dehydration. I would guess either trade of Freel, or DFA of Valentin. Valentin is basically worthless this season. I would rather get rid Patterson of course, but I doubt Dusty will let that happen.

_Sir_Charles_
05-22-2008, 05:14 PM
Phillips at leadoff would be a disaster. That being said I don't know who else to put there right now.

Yeah, I'm certainly not thrilled with that idea either. But who else are we gonna slot there? He's got speed, he's a smart baserunner, he's hitting for a nice average and he hits to all fields. Certainly not ideal...but like I said, it would minimize his HIDP opportunities at least.

_Sir_Charles_
05-22-2008, 05:17 PM
I don't think Hairston would go to the DL for dehydration. I would guess either trade of Freel, or DFA of Valentin. Valentin is basically worthless this season. I would rather get rid Patterson of course, but I doubt Dusty will let that happen.

Well, remember that the Reds have "created" injuries in the past to open up slots. So who knows...maybe they'll decide to "play it safe" with Jerry.

Trading someone would be great to free up the slot AND the payroll, but trades don't just happen. Like everyone clammoring to trade Junior. In order for that to work...you've got to find a trading partner. And at this point of the season, that's not too likely. So yeah, I'd say Javy's the most likely target.

Griffey012
05-22-2008, 06:11 PM
Without a true leadoff hitter, I think we need to at least minimize our hitters' shortcomings. Brandon loves to line into DP's. Leading off will minimize that. Dunn's OBP needs to be MUCH higher up in the lineup. Personally, I'd love to see Adam leading off...but I think that's too much of a drastic leap for many here. In regards to the clean up slot, there are 2 players who I don't want to put there. Phillips and Bruce. I know how Brandon hits from that spot and he simply tries to hit the longball way too much. It takes him out of his normal hitting style. As for Jay, I just don't want to put a high amount of pressure on the rookie this early (which is also why I don't put him in the leadoff spot either). I don't mind Joey in the #4 hole, but I think Edwin's a better fit for it. I originally had Bako hitting 7th and Janish hitting 8th, but I didn't like the run of 3 straight lefties of Votto, Griffey and Bako, so I swapped the Paul's.


Lining into double plays is in no way a shortcoming, your goal at the plate is to hit the ball hard, an unfortunate line out that turns into a double play is that, unfortunate. Because of that tendency you in no way move him out of AB's w/runners on base

Griffey012
05-22-2008, 06:20 PM
Since Dusty is our manager I would go with:
Votto
phillips
griffey
dunn
ede
bruce
janish
bako

If he wasn't and we could have a more logical lineup:
Votto
Bruce
Phillips
Dunn
EdE
Griffey
Janish
Bako

This lineup gives us decent speed at the top in Votto, Bruce and Phillips : Votto did steal 17 or so bases in AAA last year. And should give us some oppurtunities for our "RBI" guys in Dunn EDE and Grif...this also might spark Griffey to get going by dropping in the order, I dont think batting 3rd is as big of a deal to him as people make it seem.

_Sir_Charles_
05-22-2008, 06:39 PM
Lining into double plays is in no way a shortcoming, your goal at the plate is to hit the ball hard, an unfortunate line out that turns into a double play is that, unfortunate. Because of that tendency you in no way move him out of AB's w/runners on base

Good point. But I'm pretty doubtful about using Joey in the leadoff position too. I'm just not thrilled with the idea of a rook in the one hole. But I don't see many other options either.

I still like Dunn at leadoff though. He tends to get on base at a very good clip. He also k's a bunch. Those strikeouts will have minimal damage at the leadoff position. Sure, they'll still suck, but they won't be rally killers like they are now.

I just like the concept of Adam leading off the game and instantly putting pressure on the starting pitcher. Not wanting to throw a gopher-ball makes them want to pitch around him somewhat. Well, a starting pitcher who's just begun the game is NOT in a groove yet. Making him pitch in an uncomfortable situation to start the game is a good thing in my mind.

Slyder
05-22-2008, 06:51 PM
Only problem I have with putting Dunn there is that it minimizes the value of his homers. With the pitcher and catcher hitting "ahead of him", he's likely to end up facing the pitcher with no one on and at least 1 out. if you believe in 9 spot "second leadoff" then you could work around that a bit. I could understand the thinking of putting Phillips there. Maybe "platoon" Freel/Griffey/Patterson in CF and RF with Bruce playing the other with Freel leading off when he plays?

_Sir_Charles_
05-22-2008, 07:05 PM
That'd only be for one or two of his ab's. Once you bring in relief pitchers or defensive subs, you tweak the order a bit to get some bats in front of Adam. We all know Dusty's not against double switching. Besides, currently...Bako and Janish are getting on base at a better clip than who we have in front of Adam right now.

By the way, on a side note....does anybody know if Edwin has ever played any outfield? He's got excellent quickness, he's got a rifle for an arm, but he always seems to have long strings of problems playing the hot corner. With our plethora of young infielders coming up through Louisville and beyond (Waring, Fransisco & Rosales come to mind just for 3b), wouldn't it be a good idea to consider switching Edwin to a corner OF spot...say....RIGHT field. Dunn/Bruce/Edwin might be pretty good (depending on EE's defensive learning curve). I mention this because I'm looking at this team for next year and right now I'm seeing Dunn & Bruce but nobody else worth mentioning in the other OF spot. Frazier won't be ready (despite what Fay thinks), Stubbs, Dorn, Dickerson...I don't see them being viable options either for 2009. I guess there's always free agency, but when we've got this great minor league system...why go outside when we don't have to. Those big free agent signings have always hurt us in the end from what I can recall. I guess Joey in Right is also another option.

These injuries are really throwing a wrench in the possibilities. :-(

TheOnlyRedsFan
05-23-2008, 12:03 AM
Anyone listen to Thom on the radio last night complaining that he didn't like the idea of Jay playing center between Dunn and Griffey because center is not his "primary" position?

OUReds
05-23-2008, 10:23 AM
Well if I'm peeking into the Red's lineup around the first of August, what I hope to see is...

Freel (RF)
Keppinger (2b)
Dunn (LF)
Encarnacion (3b)
Bruce (CF)
Votto (1b)
Catcher
Janish (SS)

I see Phillips, Arroyo, and Griffey shopped for C/SP/OF help at the deadline.

I hope seeing Dunn in August means an extension, but if there is no intent to sign him, he'll need to be gone as well.

Hondo
05-23-2008, 12:15 PM
Anyone listen to Thom on the radio last night complaining that he didn't like the idea of Jay playing center between Dunn and Griffey because center is not his "primary" position?

Yeah, I thought he was one of the Redszoners here who cannot fathom Jay Bruce playing Center for the Reds...

But Hal McCoy was in there and said he talked to Scouts and A lot of people in the Minors and they all had RAVE reviews about Bruce playing Center.

_Sir_Charles_
05-23-2008, 04:14 PM
Well if I'm peeking into the Red's lineup around the first of August, what I hope to see is...

Freel (RF)
Keppinger (2b)
Dunn (LF)
Encarnacion (3b)
Bruce (CF)
Votto (1b)
Catcher
Janish (SS)

I see Phillips, Arroyo, and Griffey shopped for C/SP/OF help at the deadline.

I hope seeing Dunn in August means an extension, but if there is no intent to sign him, he'll need to be gone as well.

Dealing BRANDON?!? Ummm...let me stop you right there. No. With Phillips, you've got a young potent bat with speed, the potential to hit for a nice average and an A+ glove man. All that and he's signed long term for a reasonable amount. Nope, Phillips stays...period.

I'd hesitate to deal Bronson as well. Sure, he's stuggled this year (and some last year), but overall he's very reliable and for a pitcher of his caliber...his contract is very reasonable as well. Now if Homer (and another...maybe Thompson or Maloney) comes up and does extremely well and Johnny comes around...then I'd possibly consider it. But Homer and the other kids are by no means sure things. If we end up keeping Arroyo AND the kids throw well and succeed...who here would have a problem moving Bronson down in the rotation and have him be our #4 or #5 guy? Besides, he gives our rotation a nice change of pace. Without him, it's all fireballers for the most part. Keeping him brings some balance to our rotation.

And lastly, while I like Freel, he's simply NOT starter material. Not until he gets his head glued on right. Hustle is great. But INTELLIGENT hustle is even better.

Hondo
05-23-2008, 04:17 PM
It is simple.

Keep:

Volquez
Harang
Cueto
Arroyo

Cordero
Burton

Dunn
Phillips
Votto
BRUCE (when he is called up)

Those are the pieces to build around... Not trade off...

After that, Get rid of the rest of those guys... I am including EE and Kepp.

Jefferson24
05-23-2008, 04:27 PM
It is simple.


After that, Get rid of the rest of those guys... I am including EE and Kepp.

Getting rid of Kepp would be a big mistake. He's cheap and good. He has to stay. I could see letting EE go.

Ghosts of 1990
05-23-2008, 04:27 PM
I don't think Hairston would go to the DL for dehydration. I would guess either trade of Freel, or DFA of Valentin. Valentin is basically worthless this season. I would rather get rid Patterson of course, but I doubt Dusty will let that happen.

Um, Patterson?

.220 isn't very good. Why not DFA patterson? Freel has out hit him but nearly 100 points; do you guys even realize what you're saying when you say it? How do you justify keeping Patterson? That guy shouldn't even be playing baseball anymore. He's a known bust.

Hondo
05-23-2008, 04:31 PM
Getting rid of Kepp would be a big mistake. He's cheap and good. He has to stay. I could see letting EE go.

The only reason I said that was that Jeff Keppinger is a back up. I know alot of people here are in Love with him, but he was with the Mets, and Royals as a backup. Came here to be a back up... He is not a Michael Young type player. He is a guy that can play multiple positions, His average was on its way to under .300 just like Bako's has done...

I am not saying the guy is no good whatsoever.. He did a great job last year, and started off this year Playing great, he just isn't the type of Player you build around.

OUReds
05-23-2008, 04:31 PM
Dealing BRANDON?!? Ummm...let me stop you right there. No. With Phillips, you've got a young potent bat with speed, the potential to hit for a nice average and an A+ glove man. All that and he's signed long term for a reasonable amount. Nope, Phillips stays...period.

I love Brandon, he's a fine, fine player. That said, there are tough decisions that need to be made, and I think the return on Phillips could go a long way in filling other holes, and we have short and long term 2nd base options to fill in for him (keppinger/Valaika).

Ghosts of 1990
05-23-2008, 04:33 PM
Phillips won't be dealt... not in the next 5 years.

The guys who are more real candidates that might surprise you would be Harang or Cordero. Wait and see.

Slyder
05-23-2008, 06:08 PM
Um, Patterson?

.220 isn't very good. Why not DFA patterson? Freel has out hit him but nearly 100 points; do you guys even realize what you're saying when you say it? How do you justify keeping Patterson? That guy shouldn't even be playing baseball anymore. He's a known bust.

Patterson's got a better glove and range on defense than anyone except maybe Bruce, if he was used properly then he could be pinch runner/defensive replacement or bat 7th when someone needs a day off. Where as Valentin has zero value at this point to this team DFA him and if anyone wants him give him away for a bag of balls or a PTBNL.

Hondo
05-23-2008, 06:11 PM
Patterson is Making 3 Million Dollars. That is an expensive late Inning replacment, but maybe a bargain for a Pinch Runner...

:confused:

_Sir_Charles_
05-23-2008, 07:50 PM
Personally, I couldn't care less what players are signed for (in terms of money). I want the best players on the field...or at the least, the players who are playing best at the time. If a player needs to find their swing...let them do it during batting practice.

But that being said, I agree with Hondo. Patterson's still a valuable player IF USED CORRECTLY. Pinch runner. Defensive replacement. Need a sac. bunt? Injury to an OF'er? Extra inning game? Double header? Starter need a day off? There are places to play him. But starting and leading off isn't one of them.

jmac
05-23-2008, 09:59 PM
Personally, I couldn't care less what players are signed for (in terms of money). I want the best players on the field...or at the least, the players who are playing best at the time. If a player needs to find their swing...let them do it during batting practice.

But that being said, I agree with Hondo. Patterson's still a valuable player IF USED CORRECTLY. Pinch runner. Defensive replacement. Need a sac. bunt? Injury to an OF'er? Extra inning game? Double header? Starter need a day off? There are places to play him. But starting and leading off isn't one of them.
I know everyone expects Bruce up here soon but it is still hard for me to see Dusty benching Corey considering he runs him out there night in and night out now.
Hope I am wrong though.