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View Full Version : Impetuous Fans Vs. Impetuous Owner



cincyinco
05-23-2008, 08:42 PM
Hey all... I don't normally start threads but at the request of a MOD in the gamethreads and given the course of the discussion that took place I thought it might be worthwhile.

For those who are NOT in the know, you can get up to speed at the end of the game threads here around page 18/19:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68470

Questions arose in my mind last night after a comment by FCB in the post in the gamethread about how long are we going to wait until we start being as Impetuous as our owner.

I'm pretty sick of watching the on field product with seemingly no end in sight.

I posed the question: What is Walt waiting for?

I realize his hands are probably tied from a GM perspective - there's not much he can do with the mess of a roster WK left, there's not a lot of trades to be made at this point in the year, etc.

But why isn't Jay Bruce here? Why aren't we shuffling the deck chairs so to speak?

Cast's reason for firing WK so early in the season was "we're not going to lose anymore." - yet here we are, still losing, still watching the same terrible on field product - with no end in sight seemingly.

If Walt and Cast are really trying to "change the culture of losing" then why isn't Jocketty being more proactive in that regard? To me, even a minor tweak here or there, DFAing some of the crap, sending folks to the minors - in other words, dressing up the windows - would be sending the fan base the right message.

Yet, that isn't happening. The only move I can see Jocketty has made so far that's not out of necessity is Bray up Coffey down. He didn't DFA Castro, WK did. He only brought up Janish because of an injury to Keppinger. So, when does the changing of the losing culture begin?

Castellini was impetuous in firing WK, trying to sell me a bill of goods that things were now going to be different. This losing wasn't going to be tolerated. But I see abo****ely no movement to turn the ship around. Not even the window dressing moves, that would signal to the fan base that SOMETHING different is being done.

How long before RedsZone grows impatient? As Ltlabner stated(and its the impression I seem to remember as well), people were calling for WK's head VERY early in his tenure, those that were preaching patience were dismissed, and the dissent grew ever louder by the day - especially after "the trade" went down. Now I'm being told by RedsZone to be patient with Jocketty - he's proven, yada yada yada. But on the other hand I'm being told by the owner that "were not going to lose anymore" and I see no corrective action being taken.

I suppose I might be in the minority, but that makes me impetuous with Walt. Maybe I'm not being grounded in reality - but I've expected more already from Jocketty. He's been on board "evaluating" the product since January. What is he waiting for?

I just feel I'm giving him the same treatment that a lot of folks gave WK around here. And my feelings in that regard are justified in my mind, due to the message the owner sent to the fan base. How long is it going to be before we call for Walt's head? And do we really think he's going to able to do any better?

I don't know, I'm pretty frustrated as a fan. The Reds stink beyond most anyone's imagination. I don't think a majority of us thought they'd be THIS bad. And whats confusing is on paper, this team is better. Sure, Griffey is a year older. But we've added Voltron. Hammy wasn't a HUGE factor last year, so him missing doesn't play as a big effect in my mind. A few of the kids are playing every day - EE, Votto, Kepp was here to START the year.. conceivably we should have seen better results right?

But we haven't. And its not getting any better. This team is depressing. But what's more disheartening to me than that, is the perceived lack of action by Jocketty.

People will say he's only been on board a month, but I say thats a cop out. He's been on board since January, evaluating. If he's such an astute GM, he should have already identified the problems with this squad. He must have SOME idea of what he wants to do to change it - so get moving Walt. I'm just as impetuous as the owner now. The message he sent to me says I should be.

I'm waiting...

jojo
05-23-2008, 08:48 PM
Hey all... I don't normally start threads but at the request of a MOD in the gamethreads and given the course of the discussion that took place I thought it might be worthwhile.

For those who are NOT in the know, you can get up to speed at the end of the game threads here around page 18/19:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68470

Questions arose in my mind last night after a comment by FCB in the post in the gamethread about how long are we going to wait until we start being as Impetuous as our owner.

I'm pretty sick of watching the on field product with seemingly no end in sight.

I posed the question: What is Walt waiting for?

I realize his hands are probably tied from a GM perspective - there's not much he can do with the mess of a roster WK left, there's not a lot of trades to be made at this point in the year, etc.

But why isn't Jay Bruce here? Why aren't we shuffling the deck chairs so to speak?

Cast's reason for firing WK so early in the season was "we're not going to lose anymore." - yet here we are, still losing, still watching the same terrible on field product - with no end in sight seemingly.

If Walt and Cast are really trying to "change the culture of losing" then why isn't Jocketty being more proactive in that regard? To me, even a minor tweak here or there, DFAing some of the crap, sending folks to the minors - in other words, dressing up the windows - would be sending the fan base the right message.

Yet, that isn't happening. The only move I can see Jocketty has made so far that's not out of necessity is Bray up Coffey down. He didn't DFA Castro, WK did. He only brought up Janish because of an injury to Keppinger. So, when does the changing of the losing culture begin?

Castellini was impetuous in firing WK, trying to sell me a bill of goods that things were now going to be different. This losing wasn't going to be tolerated. But I see abo****ely no movement to turn the ship around. Not even the window dressing moves, that would signal to the fan base that SOMETHING different is being done.

How long before RedsZone grows impatient? As Ltlabner stated(and its the impression I seem to remember as well), people were calling for WK's head VERY early in his tenure, those that were preaching patience were dismissed, and the dissent grew ever louder by the day - especially after "the trade" went down. Now I'm being told by RedsZone to be patient with Jocketty - he's proven, yada yada yada. But on the other hand I'm being told by the owner that "were not going to lose anymore" and I see no corrective action being taken.

I suppose I might be in the minority, but that makes me impetuous with Walt. Maybe I'm not being grounded in reality - but I've expected more already from Jocketty. He's been on board "evaluating" the product since January. What is he waiting for?

I just feel I'm giving him the same treatment that a lot of folks gave WK around here. And my feelings in that regard are justified in my mind, due to the message the owner sent to the fan base. How long is it going to be before we call for Walt's head? And do we really think he's going to able to do any better?

I don't know, I'm pretty frustrated as a fan. The Reds stink beyond most anyone's imagination. I don't think a majority of us thought they'd be THIS bad. And whats confusing is on paper, this team is better. Sure, Griffey is a year older. But we've added Voltron. Hammy wasn't a HUGE factor last year, so him missing doesn't play as a big effect in my mind. A few of the kids are playing every day - EE, Votto, Kepp was here to START the year.. conceivably we should have seen better results right?

But we haven't. And its not getting any better. This team is depressing. But what's more disheartening to me than that, is the perceived lack of action by Jocketty.

People will say he's only been on board a month, but I say thats a cop out. He's been on board since January, evaluating. If he's such an astute GM, he should have already identified the problems with this squad. He must have SOME idea of what he wants to do to change it - so get moving Walt. I'm just as impetuous as the owner now. The message he sent to me says I should be.

I'm waiting...

Maybe you'll get some fireworks as the trade deadline gets closer.... Right now there are too many pretenders "within striking distance".

cincyinco
05-23-2008, 08:57 PM
Maybe you'll get some fireworks as the trade deadline gets closer.... Right now there are too many pretenders "within striking distance".

I'm not even necessarily looking for trade fireworks.

Why isn't Jay Bruce up here? I'm echoing the thoughts of everyone else in the country. Super 2 shouldn't matter. If he had been called up a few weeks ago, perhaps we could have carried the momentum of that 6 game streak.

Now we've lost 4 in a row, and all that momentum is gone. Sure is frustrating.

Why is Cueto up here, still struggling? DFA Lincoln, slide Cueto to the pen - let him work on his stuff on the side - bring up Maloney or something, give him a shot as the 5th man. Might make the pen and rotation stronger in the long run.

I don't know.. It just seems to me Walt should be thuroughly aware of this teams holes if he's truly been evaluating since January.

Something seemingly needs to be done, because I'm not sure how much more I can watch this team as is - with apparently zero things being done to fix it(and I sat and watched the Reds through the awful last years of Bowden and the downright ugly teams of O'Brien). I'm Impetuous yes - but then again, I've been told by the owner I should be. Because we're not going to lose anymore. :rolleyes:

edabbs44
05-23-2008, 09:00 PM
I was probably one of the biggest bashers of Krivsky on this board. I probably still am.

I honestly think that this team should have been shredded two years ago in anticipation of the Bruce/Votto/Bailey/Cueto additions to the major league team. I thought so then. I still think so. No matter who's choice it was, trying to win "now" was just a very poor decision.

At this point I am waiting for some decisions to be made. Jocketty is obviously not going to play with the hand dealt to him. If so, there would have been no reason for the change. Maybe he is waiting for certain date milestones to be met, such as Bruce's "Super 2" date. I have no idea. But I'm not too worried at this point. Since the winter came and went, I haven't had any expectations for this ballclub for 2008. I am pretty sure that some of the youngsters will be up here soon. At least then they will be interesting to watch.

I really cannot see this ballclub going anywhere unless Bob either pumps a buttload of money into the current roster or they tear it down and start to build around the young core that is already in place. I've been saying it for 2 years. Until a move is made in either direction, the Cincinnati Reds will just be drifting to nowhere like they have for what seems like an extremely long time.

cincyinco
05-23-2008, 09:15 PM
I was probably one of the biggest bashers of Krivsky on this board. I probably still am.

I honestly think that this team should have been shredded two years ago in anticipation of the Bruce/Votto/Bailey/Cueto additions to the major league team. I thought so then. I still think so. No matter who's choice it was, trying to win "now" was just a very poor decision.

At this point I am waiting for some decisions to be made. Jocketty is obviously not going to play with the hand dealt to him. If so, there would have been no reason for the change. Maybe he is waiting for certain date milestones to be met, such as Bruce's "Super 2" date. I have no idea. But I'm not too worried at this point. Since the winter came and went, I haven't had any expectations for this ballclub for 2008. I am pretty sure that some of the youngsters will be up here soon. At least then they will be interesting to watch.

I really cannot see this ballclub going anywhere unless Bob either pumps a buttload of money into the current roster or they tear it down and start to build around the young core that is already in place. I've been saying it for 2 years. Until a move is made in either direction, the Cincinnati Reds will just be drifting to nowhere like they have for what seems like an extremely long time.


Great post and I agree with a ton of it. Which leads me to this point:

WK might have been given a mandate to win - and I think he did his best to build the foundation in the minors while trying to win at the MLB level at the same time. An ardulent task no doubt.

But there are 13, count them 13 FA's coming off the books this year. That was setup by one Mr. Krivsky. I believe wholeheartedly he did this by design. I really think next year or 2010 was the year he was really trying to make a push - getting a lot of money off the books, with the hope that a lot of the kids were going to step up and graduate to the parent club - and by that time there should have been a more consistent pipeline of talent to suppliment trades and/or fill holes with.

I'm not trying to defend WK with this post or in this thread, I'm pretty indifferent to the firing. I liked WK, but I wasn't shedding any tears about his dismissal and I could see bringing in Jocketty. He might very well be the better guy to get this team over the hump. He'll sure have a ton of flexability at years end - but for me, thats another feather in WK's cap, but I see WJ getting the credit for it.

So, you said: I honestly think that this team should have been shredded two years ago in anticipation of the Bruce/Votto/Bailey/Cueto additions to the major league team.

Well, I think thats exactly what WK was in fact trying to do. Shed the money off the books in anticipation of this core's arrival. I think a lot of his contracts given out(the stantons/castros/pattersons/et al) were just patch jobs. He missed on a quite a few, fair critisism sure. But to me they're also a bit more inconsequential than a lot of folks on here would have you believe.

I wonder what WK would have done at years end had he been able to see the job through. Oh well. I just hope Cast was right and Jocketty is the better man to see this team through. I just didn't quite understand the timing of WK's firing then, and I don't know - especially given the seemingly indifferent attitude to the parent club right now.

Jocketty came out and said "this season isn't over" and that he "still liked our chances" - well, that may have been true then - but any chance we did have, no matter how slim, I now firmly believe has slipped through the cracks with the apparent inaction.

I just dont get it.

jojo
05-23-2008, 09:17 PM
I seriously doubt ownership has made a decision on payroll for '09 (this likely effects Jocketty's strategy).

There probably isn't really a serious trade partner who is willing to pull the trigger on something really meaningful (and there might not be until the off season).

The Reds aren't likely to be going anywhere this season so there really isn't a pressing need to hurry decisions about Bruce and Homer.

It's very possible that Jocketty is busying himself with evaluating the farm. Being "on the job" for 4+ months probably isn't enough time to become familiar enough with the system to make qualified decisions about major trades etc...

Further complicating things is the time that needs to be spent on the draft board. It's not really the GM's job but he's likely getting vetted heavily and it's possible that his preferences could be changing the shape of the board which really is a big, big undertaking.

The Reds may not have made a decision on what they'd like to do with Dunn.

Sure Jocketty has been here since the beginning of the year. That said, we have no idea how much time Jocketty actually spent in the office before Bob C lost his patience with Wayne. We might be shocked by how little time it might really have been....

Bob C really is clueless. Imagine the amount of time it might take to get him up to speed to the point he might be able to actually get on board with a hypothetical plan (assuming Jocketty has one which I doubt he does at this point).

Jocketty isn't really known for knee-jerk moves. At this point we don't need to be patient as fans. It's a matter of simply being practical-assuming Jocketty became GM with a deep knowledge of everything Reds and a corresponding detailed plan to get them to the promised land probably assumes way too much.

jojo
05-23-2008, 09:26 PM
I'm not even necessarily looking for trade fireworks.

Why isn't Jay Bruce up here? I'm echoing the thoughts of everyone else in the country. Super 2 shouldn't matter. If he had been called up a few weeks ago, perhaps we could have carried the momentum of that 6 game streak.

Now we've lost 4 in a row, and all that momentum is gone. Sure is frustrating.

Why is Cueto up here, still struggling? DFA Lincoln, slide Cueto to the pen - let him work on his stuff on the side - bring up Maloney or something, give him a shot as the 5th man. Might make the pen and rotation stronger in the long run.

I don't know.. It just seems to me Walt should be thuroughly aware of this teams holes if he's truly been evaluating since January.

Something seemingly needs to be done, because I'm not sure how much more I can watch this team as is - with apparently zero things being done to fix it(and I sat and watched the Reds through the awful last years of Bowden and the downright ugly teams of O'Brien). I'm Impetuous yes - but then again, I've been told by the owner I should be. Because we're not going to lose anymore. :rolleyes:

There are very few GMs who will announce that they're punting in May. There are even fewer with enough rope to actually be able to announce such a move without totally alienating fans. Maybe only one really. Certainly Jocketty can't after the way Krivsky was handled.

Cyclone792
05-23-2008, 09:32 PM
Why isn't Jay Bruce up here? I'm echoing the thoughts of everyone else in the country. Super 2 shouldn't matter. If he had been called up a few weeks ago, perhaps we could have carried the momentum of that 6 game streak.

Why isn't Bruce up here? Because it'll likely cost the Reds somewhere in the neighborhood of $5-10 million to call him up early. There's plenty of people don't want the Reds paying Adam Dunn $13 million for an entire season so what makes you think they'd be happy paying half that for two or three weeks of Jay Bruce?

It doesn't matter if Jay Bruce hits like Ted Williams and plays center field like Tris Speaker, he's not going to salvage this team this season. The only way this team gets salvaged is if the front office, the manager, and the other 24 guys on the roster get their jobs done, and recent history suggests all that isn't going to happen either.

What's funny is that people want Jay Bruce called up now at any cost. I'm willing to bet that in six years many of those same people will want Jay Bruce shipped out of town because he'll be making too much money.

Kc61
05-23-2008, 09:42 PM
Jocketty will change the personnel. At least the team's farm system is in decent shape so the team has assets to move. This season is a disappointment, but I have confidence he will help the team take a step forward.

It's hard to have unending patience, as Reds fans are asked to have, but the Reds finally have a GM with a history of winning. They also have a couple of major player decisions to make. I'm optimistic that things will get better.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-23-2008, 10:29 PM
Jay Bruce will be here in a week.

Waiting until late May to call him up is not going to be the reason the Titanic sinks.

Simply put, this team is horribly constructed. With or without Bruce.

On the bright side, I'll be down Friday and have perfect seats to catch #600. Yippie.

edabbs44
05-23-2008, 10:40 PM
So, you said: I honestly think that this team should have been shredded two years ago in anticipation of the Bruce/Votto/Bailey/Cueto additions to the major league team.

Well, I think thats exactly what WK was in fact trying to do. Shed the money off the books in anticipation of this core's arrival. I think a lot of his contracts given out(the stantons/castros/pattersons/et al) were just patch jobs. He missed on a quite a few, fair critisism sure. But to me they're also a bit more inconsequential than a lot of folks on here would have you believe.

Maybe that's what they were trying to accomplish. For a team with a limited payroll, however, it is very tough to compete both now and later.

My belief is that the plan, if there was one, was extremely flawed. If the main goal was to try and shed money off the books in anticipation of the core's arrival, then why is Griffey still here? Why wasn't there a move made in either direction on Dunn? Why the Arroyo extension? Why sign a 30 something closer to a record breaking, 4 year contract? Forget about Stanton, Castro and the rest of the mindless signings. While I did hate them all and I do believe that they were a complete waste of time money, the bigger ticket items named above are a complete contradiction to what this team should have been trying to accomplish.

The arrival of the core isn't when this team is going to be ready, if all pans out. The team will become more and more ready in the years following the arrival. So the plan should have been to cut salary while hording funds for building the team around the core in those years. Payroll has increased in '07 and '08 under Krivsky. That is in no way "shedding money off the books." That is trying to win.

GAC
05-24-2008, 06:49 AM
I'm lazy, so I'm gonna simply "cut n paste" what I said on the other Bruce thread...

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say (hope) that Jocketty is using this year, for the most part, as a period of acclimation with the Reds (players, system, etc) to evaluate what he has (and hasn't).

He is on record as saying that there is no quick fix for this team and that it's going to take patience. I hope Bob C is (was) listening because this is "his" guy.

We want a winner. Bob C wants to "Win Now". In order to achieve that end Jocketty can't be knee-jerk. He is in a catch-22 situation right now with Jr (declining skills/performance) and Dunn (contract).

Rushing Bruce up here - who this FO appears to have targeted for a corner OF spot - is not going to salvage this season IMO. And I don't want him sitting the bench either. If they are entertaining bringing Bruce up, it's to start, not be a part time player. And in order to do so, the situation with one of these corner OFers has to be rectified soon.

Some contend that Bruce can play CF. I'm sure he can. But most of the scouting reports I've read on Bruce say that he best projects as a corner OFer. One option I've heard suggested is bring him up and let him play CF for the remainder of the season (that would take care of the Patterson problem). If, in this FO's mind, they don't have him slotted as a CFer, then they aren't going to do that.

It certainly doesn't address the problem of a Jr in RF either. A Jr who is basically untradeable and in the driver's seat, and a manager who, out of respect for who Jr was (and what he is pursuing - #600) is going to favor him.

It just appears this FO (and manager) are going to let Jr go out on his own terms.

GAC
05-24-2008, 07:32 AM
Cast's reason for firing WK so early in the season was "we're not going to lose anymore." - yet here we are, still losing, still watching the same terrible on field product - with no end in sight seemingly.

I simply laugh off Cast's annual "Win now!" and "I'm not going to take losing anymore" speeches. He makes these statements and like a groundhog retreats back into his hole. Put up or shut up fellow!

He came in as a "baseball" guy who is hands on. Okay. When does he accept some of the culpability when it comes to some of the players acquired?


If Walt and Cast are really trying to "change the culture of losing" then why isn't Jocketty being more proactive in that regard? To me, even a minor tweak here or there, DFAing some of the crap, sending folks to the minors - in other words, dressing up the windows - would be sending the fan base the right message.

We've DFA'd several players over the last year. Who have we replaced them with? Again - where was Bob C?

IMHO - window dressing is nothing more then a deceptive practice to sell tickets and keep the fans coming by falsely boosting their hopes.


Yet, that isn't happening. The only move I can see Jocketty has made so far that's not out of necessity is Bray up Coffey down. He didn't DFA Castro, WK did. He only brought up Janish because of an injury to Keppinger. So, when does the changing of the losing culture begin?....

Castellini was impetuous in firing WK, trying to sell me a bill of goods that things were now going to be different. This losing wasn't going to be tolerated. But I see abo****ely no movement to turn the ship around....

I suppose I might be in the minority, but that makes me impetuous with Walt. Maybe I'm not being grounded in reality - but I've expected more already from Jocketty. He's been on board "evaluating" the product since January. What is he waiting for?

Teams aren't going to be trading players, making deals, especially players of talent, at these early stages of the season. Have we seen other teams making trades recently? Teams wait till a more opportune time during the season when they have better leverage, the demand is greater, and when a player's value may be best inflated.



How long before RedsZone grows impatient? As Ltlabner stated (and its the impression I seem to remember as well), people were calling for WK's head VERY early in his tenure, those that were preaching patience were dismissed, and the dissent grew ever louder by the day - especially after "the trade" went down. Now I'm being told by RedsZone to be patient with Jocketty - he's proven, yada yada yada. But on the other hand I'm being told by the owner that "were not going to lose anymore" and I see no corrective action being taken.

I asked the very same question right after the WK firing and Jocketty hiring..... Are those calling (screaming) for WK's head very early in his tenure going to show the same "courtesy" towards Jocketty who preaches patience? How long of a leash are they going to give him?

I am approaching, or going to give Jocketty, the same courtesy that I did with WK because IMHO and looking what was needed to turn this ship around (and irregardless of Bob C's comments on Win Now) it wasn't going to be corrected over night. Unless you have an owner who was really going to open up the pocketbooks (like a Cub's ownership) and really fork out millions and millions, you have to set forth a course and work towards that objective. If it is in the area/objective of player development and the farm system, and looking to kids like Votto, Bailey, Bruce, Volquez, Cueto, etc., then that does require an element of patience.

And while one would love every decision to be the right one, every trade and acquisition to work out grandly, it doesn't always work out that way. The bigger question facing both Bob C and Jocketty, as far as I'm concerned, is trying to minimize those bad decisions, not make knee jerk decisions/reactions, and properly evaluate and identify those needs, and aggressively fill them.

Personally, I think we won't see much from Jocketty, except possibly at the trading deadline, until this off-season and going into next year. The Jr and Dunn situations will be resolved, various other player contracts/obligations will be off the book, and Walt will have greater flexibility and leeway to work with.


But what's more disheartening to me than that, is the perceived lack of action by Jocketty.



I'm waiting...

Queuing Tom right here....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP3UqYmqDh0

IslandRed
05-24-2008, 11:09 AM
Going back five years from today, not even considering the ownership change: the Reds are on their fifth general manager (I'm counting the GM-by-committee in the wake of Bowden's firing since they had trade authority) and fifth manager (counting Mackanin). There are only a few players left from the roster on 5/24/03.

The Reds have had impetuous. In spades. We've had gestures and speeches and ritual sacrifices and window dressing and other dumb moves justified by the need to "show the fans how much we care." To heck with all that. The Reds need brains. We'll win when they string together enough smart baseball moves to build a winning team, and if doing the smart thing doesn't satisfy our desire to do something NOW, then too bad for us.

Since Mr. Castellini has yet to demonstrate to me that he understands the difference between "smart impetuous" and "dumb impetuous," my hope is that he'll leave Jocketty alone for awhile. Walt strikes me as a smart guy when he's allowed to be.