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View Full Version : Why is Corey Patterson such a bad player?



LouisvilleCARDS
05-25-2008, 08:21 PM
This isn't a question I'm asking people in order to defend him. It's a question I ask about what is TECHNICALLY making him so bad. Looking at him, he LOOKS like he should be a really good player. He's shown ability to get the ball out of the park, has some pop in his bat. At the very least he should be as effective as Norris Hopper, who gets a ton of hits off of bunts and his speed. His OBP isn't awesome either, but he sure as heck is a lot better at getting on than Corey.

Patterson has speed, and can steal bases, he's a very good outfield, has a good arm, is athletic. He was a top prospect in baseball. I don't understand why this guy can't be at LEAST average. But here we are, his BA is .200, and he's not doing crap.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 08:22 PM
Hmm... .250 OBP?

Kingspoint
05-25-2008, 08:23 PM
This isn't a question I'm asking people in order to defend him. It's a question I ask about what is TECHNICALLY making him so bad. Looking at him, he LOOKS like he should be a really good player. He's shown ability to get the ball out of the park, has some pop in his bat. At the very least he should be as effective as Norris Hopper, who gets a ton of hits off of bunts and his speed. His OBP isn't awesome either, but he sure as heck is a lot better at getting on than Corey.

Patterson has speed, and can steal bases, he's a very good outfield, has a good arm, is athletic. He was a top prospect in baseball. I don't understand why this guy can't be at LEAST average. But here we are, his BA is .200, and he's not doing crap.

The same reason you or I aren't good players. Everyone has their peak and Patterson's was about 4 years ago with the Cubs. He's belonged in the Minor Leagues ever since. He's not a Major League ballplayer.

LouisvilleCARDS
05-25-2008, 08:24 PM
Hmm... .250 OBP?

"This isn't a question I'm asking people in order to defend him. It's a question I ask about what is TECHNICALLY making him so bad. "

Thanks for reading the post pal. You completely missed the point. I'm guessing you didn't read a sentence. :rolleyes:

Kingspoint
05-25-2008, 08:27 PM
I think JB was answering the question. He's saying that he swings at everything. He has no discretion when it comes to what pitch he'll swing at.

Ghosts of 1990
05-25-2008, 08:39 PM
I played the game for a long time. Let me try and help you.

Patterson is not a patient hitter. That's the biggest thing I see. He does not work the count into his favor, which not only hurts the obvious (you don't get any walks) but he's not getting 'his pitch'. He's swinging at anything close, not exactly hitters pitches, which is compounded because he's pressing right now.

His biggest (and maybe only) weapon is his speed. Because he refuses to take walks; this is almost null. His speed is taken away from him becasue he's never on base. He does not have the patience to try and draw walks.

He also tries to lift the ball too often. Patterson's speed as his biggest weapon should be a clue for him to hit the ball on the ground and run like crazy every AB. He tries to hit the ball out of the ballpark, and hits everything in the air. There are no bad hops in the sky. This contributes to his low career average.

He's above average, not great in the outfield. Gets only average reads on balls, his speed makes up for this a lot of the time. His throwing arm is only rated as average.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 08:40 PM
I think JB was answering the question. He's saying that he swings at everything. He has no discretion when it comes to what pitch he'll swing at.

Exactly.

His .250 OBP is the perfect summation of why CP sucks so awfully at major league baseball. :thumbup:

LouisvilleCARDS
05-25-2008, 08:43 PM
I think JB was answering the question. He's saying that he swings at everything. He has no discretion when it comes to what pitch he'll swing at.

Maybe, just sounded like he misunderstood, like I was asking the people who say Patterson sucks why he was bad, like I was defending him. I know he sucks, I just wonder what keeps him from being decent. I mean Norris Hopper is decent, and Patterson looks jsut as fast as Hopper. Hopper is a much better bunter, seems like Patterson rarely gets a good bunt hit, yet Hopper can lay them down perfectly and get on even when the team is guarding against them. Patterson needs to work on that and he would at least be servicable.

Ghosts of 1990
05-25-2008, 08:49 PM
here comes mr. 0 for 6 right now.

Kingspoint
05-25-2008, 08:50 PM
Maybe, just sounded like he misunderstood, like I was asking the people who say Patterson sucks why he was bad, like I was defending him. I know he sucks, I just wonder what keeps him from being decent. I mean Norris Hopper is decent, and Patterson looks jsut as fast as Hopper. Hopper is a much better bunter, seems like Patterson rarely gets a good bunt hit, yet Hopper can lay them down perfectly and get on even when the team is guarding against them. Patterson needs to work on that and he would at least be servicable.

Which is sad that it's the best we can hope for because we already have that in Hopper.

Hopper's zone-rating as a fielder was the best on the team last year for every position he played...better than Hamilton's and Freels. There's no reason for Patterson to be on any ballclub, yet alone the REDS.

Kingspoint
05-25-2008, 08:52 PM
Plus, pitchers know they can throw him junk because he'll swing at everything.

Ghosts of 1990
05-25-2008, 08:53 PM
Make that 0 for 7. That was a good at bat so maybe Dusty will use that at-bat (ending in a K) to justify keeping Patterson around another few weeks.

Kingspoint
05-25-2008, 08:53 PM
He's basically facing a minor league pitcher here in Jared Wells (7.71 ERA in San Diego, no less). Wells doesn't know he can throw him junk.

LouisvilleCARDS
05-25-2008, 08:54 PM
Does he have the golden sombrero today? He's gotta be close.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 08:55 PM
Does he have the golden sombrero today? He's gotta be close.

I think 0 for 7 qualifies a player for a super-platinum diamond-studded sombrero. :(

Kingspoint
05-25-2008, 08:58 PM
I think 0 for 7 qualifies a player for a super-platinum diamond-studded sombrero. :(


On a day when every other starter (except EE) and both pinch-hitters have a hit.

Baker's reluctance to put Janish at SS is going to come back to bite him, if it hasn't already. I don't get to see the plays, so I don't know what balls Hairston has failed to get to so far today.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 08:59 PM
On a day when every other starter (except EE) and both pinch-hitters have a hit.

Baker's reluctance to put Janish at SS is going to come back to bite him, if it hasn't already. I don't get to see the plays, so I don't know what balls Hairston has failed to get to so far today.

Me either, but between 2-3 per game is a safe bet on most games.

LOL... how many career games does Hairston have at SS? Dusty is a complete moron.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 08:59 PM
Hell, I'd rather have Felipe at SS than Hairston. :lol:

Ghosts of 1990
05-25-2008, 09:02 PM
back to patterson. if they DFA him before tuesday night's game in Cincy......... I'll never complain about anything the reds do the rest of the season. I don't care if we don't win another game. As long as I don't have to watch this guy stink up the field with his poor approach anymore.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 09:03 PM
I truly can't believe Krivsky gave this joke 3 million dollars. That earned him a pink slip right there, IMO. :(

LouisvilleCARDS
05-25-2008, 09:05 PM
Why does he have to be DFA'ed? Can't he just be outrighted to down here (referring to Louisville)? I thought he signed a minor league contract, so he should be able to be sent down whenver.

Kingspoint
05-25-2008, 09:07 PM
I truly can't believe Krivsky gave this joke 3 million dollars. That earned him a pink slip right there, IMO. :(

He never would have given him a second look if Dusty hadn't insisted on having him on the team. Dusty and Jockety probably went behind Krivsky's back and insisted that Krivsky sign him. Krivsky's track record shows that Patterson is not the type of player that he goes after. He's the complete opposite.

It was not his choice irregardless of Krivsky saying that he signed him.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 09:09 PM
Doesn't matter, KP. Giving him 3 million dollars is the problem. CP had NO other offers. He shouldn't have offered above 500k-750k.

Kingspoint
05-25-2008, 09:10 PM
Doesn't matter, KP. Giving him 3 million dollars is the problem. CP had NO other offers. He shouldn't have offered above 500k-750k.

Maybe Krivsky thought that he wouldn't make the team and so the $3M wouldn't kick in.

Ghosts of 1990
05-25-2008, 09:11 PM
Why does he have to be DFA'ed? Can't he just be outrighted to down here (referring to Louisville)? I thought he signed a minor league contract, so he should be able to be sent down whenver.

definitely burned up his options when he was with the Cubs due to how inconsistent he was.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 09:13 PM
Maybe Krivsky thought that he wouldn't make the team and so the $3M wouldn't kick in.

Then what does that say about Krivsky's judgment?

It was pretty obvious to most--All?--of us that once Dusty had the option of CP, he was going to have him on his ballclub leading off, come hell or high water. :(

LouisvilleCARDS
05-25-2008, 09:15 PM
I don't have a problem paying him $3 mil for a one shot versus $750K or something, its coming out of Castellini's pocket, not mine. Its not like that money would have been used anywhere else on other players, so its not handicapping anything, its irrelevant. If it was 3 years, $9 or $10 mil, then yeah, thats messing with the teams earnings. Consider it an investment in stupidity, and learning a lesson - it wasn't keeping us from getting anyone else though.

Also to add to the hilarity, BRONSON ARROYO gets a pinch hit, and Patterson can't get one in 7 tries. :bang:

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 09:18 PM
Hmmm. LCards, that's another 2+ million that could've gone into the draft budget. Or into signing Latin American players. It was a humongous waste of resources. Ignoring that is folly.

Kingspoint
05-25-2008, 09:24 PM
Then what does that say about Krivsky's judgment?

It was pretty obvious to most--All?--of us that once Dusty had the option of CP, he was going to have him on his ballclub leading off, come hell or high water. :(


So, true. Krivsky wrote his own pinkslip on that one.

Hondo
05-25-2008, 09:44 PM
Krivisky might have helped the team with the draft, but it doesn't matter. His management of the Big League Roster was terrible...

LouisvilleCARDS
05-25-2008, 10:00 PM
Hmmm. LCards, that's another 2+ million that could've gone into the draft budget. Or into signing Latin American players. It was a humongous waste of resources. Ignoring that is folly.

Humongous? Not you, not me, not anyone knows what the end ponit is for how much Castellini is going to spend. I doubt adding a spare position player for one year for a meager $3 mil amounts to much of anything. It's likely not going to be spent on anyone else, especially when the signing was that close to the start of the year. It's likely not preventing anyone from being signed in the draft.

It's not amounting to anything salary wise, its just hurting having a sub par player on the roster playing constantly. Some of you are still too paranoid about the Linder era fiscal policy. Salary plays a role, but thats not why this sucks - it sucks because he's not doing crap, not because he's making $3 million. $3 million or $500k spent, its not affecting the team from doing anything it wouldn't otherwise have done, sorry.

James B.
05-25-2008, 10:02 PM
I know that most would disagree but I wouldn't mind keeping Patterson as a back up outfielder. It would be nice to have his speed and defense on the bench.

Blue
05-25-2008, 10:03 PM
So, true. Krivsky wrote his own pinkslip on that one.

Hopefully Baker did too.

Blue
05-25-2008, 10:04 PM
I know that most would disagree but I wouldn't mind keeping Patterson as a back up outfielder. It would be nice to have his speed and defense on the bench.

I'd rather never have to look at him again.

Hondo
05-25-2008, 10:19 PM
I'd rather never have to look at him again.

Ditto

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 10:19 PM
Humongous? Not you, not me, not anyone knows what the end ponit is for how much Castellini is going to spend. I doubt adding a spare position player for one year for a meager $3 mil amounts to much of anything. It's likely not going to be spent on anyone else, especially when the signing was that close to the start of the year. It's likely not preventing anyone from being signed in the draft.

It's not amounting to anything salary wise, its just hurting having a sub par player on the roster playing constantly. Some of you are still too paranoid about the Linder era fiscal policy. Salary plays a role, but thats not why this sucks - it sucks because he's not doing crap, not because he's making $3 million. $3 million or $500k spent, its not affecting the team from doing anything it wouldn't otherwise have done, sorry.

That extra 2 million would have allowed us to enter this year's draft able to draft AND sign ANYONE on the board, whether they're a Boras client or not. You can read in the Minor League forum where Castellini talks about how the Reds are at their maximum as far as this year's budget. Sorry, the 2 million could've made a huge difference both for the Amateur draft as well as our Latin American budget. ;)

captainmorgan07
05-25-2008, 10:22 PM
He just saved himself from 0-8 with a nice sac bunt. He should personally thank votto for not making him go down as one of the worst single game performances by a Red EVER.

Hondo
05-25-2008, 10:22 PM
If this team passes on talent to save Money in the Draft. That is going to be so much BS, escpecially with the money given to Castro, Stanton, and Now Corey Patterson...

Josh Fogg...

I mean I would dang sure rather see guys like Thompson, Bailey, and Roenike up here, even if they have bumps and bruises... than watch these RE-Treads

LouisvilleCARDS
05-25-2008, 10:25 PM
That extra 2 million would have allowed us to enter this year's draft able to draft AND sign ANYONE on the board, whether they're a Boras client or not. You can read in the Minor League forum where Castellini talks about how the Reds are at their maximum as far as this year's budget. Sorry, the 2 million could've made a huge difference both for the Amateur draft as well as our Latin American budget. ;)

I'll tell you what, get back to me when after this years draft if a difference of $2 million costs us a player being drafted and signed. If $2 million prevents a drafted player from being signed, then I really need to be looking for a new team to root on for, because my head cannot handle that degree of retardedness. They've already did it once with Sowers, and it looks like that era has been over for a while.

BTW Patterson gets a gutty bunt sacrifice to move Votto over.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 10:27 PM
You're crazy. I'll tell you what, get back to me when after this years draft if a difference of $2 million costs us a player being drafted and signed. If $2 million prevents a drafted player from being signed, then I really need to be looking for a new team to root on for, because my head cannot handle that degree of retardedness. They've already did it once with Sowers, and it looks like that era has been over for a while.

BTW Patterson gets a gutty bunt sacrifice to move Votto over.

LCards, that has happened with just about every Reds draft for the past 10-15 years. Not sure which team you've been following? :confused:

BTW: Cool it with the personal attacks, ok? We can discuss things like adults w/o resorting to name-calling. ;)

Hondo
05-25-2008, 10:29 PM
LCards, that has happened with just about every Reds draft for the past 10-15 years. Not sure which team you've been following? :confused:

BTW: Cool it with the personal attacks, ok? We can discuss things like adults w/o resorting to name-calling. ;)

Can I still personally attack Corey Patterson and Josh Fogg, and sometimes Belisle?

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 10:30 PM
Can I still personally attack Corey Patterson and Josh Fogg, and sometimes Belisle?

:beerme:

:thumbup:

:D

LouisvilleCARDS
05-25-2008, 10:31 PM
LCards, that has happened with just about every Reds draft for the past 10-15 years. Not sure which team you've been following? :confused:

BTW: Cool it with the personal attacks, ok? We can discuss things like adults w/o resorting to name-calling. ;)


I must have missed something, I didn't call you anything, except crazy. Hardly name-calling. We'll just agree to disagree then, I don't think it makes a difference, but if you wanna nitpick about any little thing, be my guest. I'm more concerned about things like signing Eric Milton to $30 mil deals and having Griffey on the hook for $10 mil every year than spare parts taking a couple mil every year that don't do much. That's just an inevitability with any team, not just the Reds.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 10:32 PM
I must have missed something, I didn't call you anything, except crazy. Hardly name-calling. We'll just agree to disagree then, I don't think it makes a difference, but if you wanna nitpick about any little thing, be my guest. I'm more concerned about things like signing Eric Milton to $30 mil deals and having Griffey on the hook for $10 mil every year than spare parts taking a couple mil every year that don't do much. That's just an inevitability with any team, not just the Reds.

LouisvilleCARDS
05-25-2008, 10:34 PM
Oh jeez. If I hurt you're feelings, I'll edit it out. Better? :rolleyes:

Kingspoint
05-25-2008, 10:36 PM
What's crazy is this game.

JayBruce4HOF
05-25-2008, 10:39 PM
Oh jeez. If I hurt you're feelings, I'll edit it out. Better? :rolleyes:

My feelings aren't hurt. ;)

It's all good. Just prefer to keep everything friendly. It's cool if we disagree. :)

TheBigLebowski
05-25-2008, 11:24 PM
If this doesn't end the ill-fated Corey Patterson era I do not know what will.

I am angry and therefore a little bit irrational but, does Corey have pictures of Dusty feeding and/or hiding and abetting Bin Laden? If so, how can Corey not be guilty by association?

Is there anything we, as fans, can do to get rid of Patterson and bring Bruce into the fold? Is there a number we can call or a bigger terrorist with whom we could associate Dusty?

I don't know what to do, honestly...I'm about to lose my mind.

Blue
05-25-2008, 11:30 PM
Forget about the 0-8, that late sac could have been pivotal!

Billy_Bearcat
05-25-2008, 11:30 PM
:bowrofl: I gotta see those pictures!

George Foster
05-25-2008, 11:34 PM
I would just retire if I were Patterson.

I will bet anybody $50 if the Reds release him, he would not be picked up by another major league team.

Billy_Bearcat
05-25-2008, 11:35 PM
I will bet anybody $50 if the Reds release him, he would not be picked up by another major league team.


I don't know, the Padres seem to do well picking guys up off waivers..see Banks, Josh. :rolleyes:

demas863
05-25-2008, 11:36 PM
[QUOTE=LouisvilleCARDS;1642715]"This isn't a question I'm asking people in order to defend him. It's a question I ask about what is TECHNICALLY making him so bad. "

In an attempt to answer your question and being fully aware that I'll most likely get blasted, he looks like he's imitating the "Karate Kid" on away pitches. On the inner part of the plate he seems to have a more level swing and can drive the ball. Thus he gets pitched away and, as mentioned by others, he has poor plate discipline (which by the way can also be said of a few others). He often times looks lost and lacking confidence ala Brandon Larson. - which is a separate matter. Unfortunately, he probably can't make such a large adjustment to his swing since it is very likely too well ingrained. He has always been a flyball hitter which nullifies to a great extent his speed. The Cubs went with this alleged "five-tool player" for some time and then quit on him. That should tell us he's not a likely turn-around candidate despite Dusty's love affair with him. You know it's kind of tough winning when you generally have to give up an out every other inning.

ChatterRed
05-26-2008, 12:44 AM
Corey Patterson was 0-8 tonight. Too funny.

_Sir_Charles_
05-26-2008, 12:53 AM
Hey, give the guy his props. He laid down a nice sac bunt.

Oh, and he also saved Jay Bruce some money on air-fare by not having to fly all the way out to Cali.

Hondo
05-26-2008, 09:36 AM
Hey, give the guy his props. He laid down a nice sac bunt.

Oh, and he also saved Jay Bruce some money on air-fare by not having to fly all the way out to Cali.

That is just the kind of talk that Dudepick needs to keep starting this guy...

PTI (pti)
05-26-2008, 12:07 PM
The problem with Corey Patterson.....or, I should say, with people's PERCEPTION of Corey Patterson, is that he's looked at by way too many folks(including Dusty Baker, his illegitimate father) as being a talented player.

He's just NOT GOOD. There's really nothing else to it. He's a "5-tool" guy, but unfortunately for him --> most of them SUCK.


I don't *care* if he was drafted #2 overall, I don't *care* if Chicago had him pegged as baseball's next 30-30 guy, I don't *care* if he's the most "athletic" player on the team.....HE SUCKS. He always has, but otherwise knowledgeable baseball people just continue to buy into him because of his supposed "talent." It's just not there.

There's really no explanation for it - but it's the same reason Sidney Ponson keeps getting opportunities, it's the same reason Buck Showalter will probably get another managerial job oneday, it's the same reason people keep thinking that THIS is really gonna be the year Mark Prior finally stays healthy.......:rolleyes:





(sorry for being 4 pages late - but that's your answer. he's such a bad player - because he just sucks)

Hondo
05-26-2008, 12:11 PM
The problem with Corey Patterson.....or, I should say, with people's PERCEPTION of Corey Patterson, is that he's looked at by way too many folks(including Dusty Baker, his illegitimate father) as being a talented player.

He's just NOT GOOD. There's really nothing else to it. He's a "5-tool" guy, but unfortunately for him --> most of them SUCK.


I don't *care* if he was drafted #2 overall, I don't *care* if Chicago had him pegged as baseball's next 30-30 guy, I don't *care* if he's the most "athletic" player on the team.....HE SUCKS. He always has, but otherwise knowledgeable baseball people just continue to buy into him because of his supposed "talent." It's just not there.

There's really no explanation for it - but it's the same reason Sidney Ponson keeps getting opportunities, it's the same reason Buck Showalter will probably get another managerial job oneday, it's the same reason people keep thinking that THIS is really gonna be the year Mark Prior finally stays healthy.......:rolleyes:





(sorry for being 4 pages late - but that's your answer. he's such a bad player - because he just sucks)

He's a 5 tool guy, but they all suck...

That is CLASSIC

TheBigLebowski
05-26-2008, 12:17 PM
Saw today that he was the first player to go 0-8 since 1983. Baker and Patterson were getting ripped on Sportscenter.

Kingspoint
05-26-2008, 06:16 PM
He's a 5 tool guy, but they all suck...

That is CLASSIC

He's a tool alright. ;)

Blue
05-26-2008, 06:17 PM
I think our long local nightmare may be over.

Hondo
05-26-2008, 07:34 PM
the 0-8 was probably the Final straw

757690
05-26-2008, 08:44 PM
I think the problem, ironically, is Dusty Baker. Dusty wants him to be a leadoff hitter, but his swing is that of a slugger. The bizarre look of it seems to be a result of Patterson trying to adjust a power swing into a slap hitting swing, instead of just coming up with a whole new swing.

I think that if Dusty had batted him 7th from game one, let him try to be a slugger, Patterson would have at least put up the numbers did in Baltimore, not very good, but enough to justify his defense. I guess we will never know.

Slyder
05-26-2008, 10:36 PM
I know that most would disagree but I wouldn't mind keeping Patterson as a back up outfielder. It would be nice to have his speed and defense on the bench.

But Dusty refuses to use him as such. I have said many times that I wouldnt mind Patterson for a 4th of/defensive sub type role but Dusty continues to pencil him in there leadoff or 2nd and in CF cancelling out any value at all he carries defensively to the point that we need to just cut him so Dusty CANT put the team or Patterson in that position any more.

BTW I just got done watching Major League, anyone else keep picturing Willy Mays Hayes 1st BP as Corey Patterson hitting?

captainmorgan07
05-26-2008, 10:51 PM
I wouldn't mind keeping Corey as a 4th outfielder and defensive replacement for late in games. I agree with most that if corey plays he should be batting down in the order where he can try to hit for power since he refuses to hit for average. His speed down in the order could be valuable to get onbase for the guys at the top of the order. There's no harm in batting corey 7th or 8th.

Redeye fly
05-26-2008, 11:43 PM
I wouldn't mind keeping Corey as a 4th outfielder and defensive replacement for late in games. I agree with most that if corey plays he should be batting down in the order where he can try to hit for power since he refuses to hit for average. His speed down in the order could be valuable to get onbase for the guys at the top of the order. There's no harm in batting corey 7th or 8th.

Perhaps not, but then again Corey would like to know what this "get on base" thing is you speak of.;)

James B.
05-27-2008, 12:13 AM
But Dusty refuses to use him as such. I have said many times that I wouldnt mind Patterson for a 4th of/defensive sub type role but Dusty continues to pencil him in there leadoff or 2nd and in CF cancelling out any value at all he carries defensively to the point that we need to just cut him so Dusty CANT put the team or Patterson in that position any more.

BTW I just got done watching Major League, anyone else keep picturing Willy Mays Hayes 1st BP as Corey Patterson hitting?

I think that now hw will have to start Bruce. I think that the reds should cut a catcher and keep Patterson.