PDA

View Full Version : Well, Votto's poor defense finally reared its ugly head



Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 10:08 PM
Votto was quoted last week when asked about his rep as a poor defender (and at that point he was looking really good), "I don't know where that came from." Well, I'm pretty sure I know where that came from. It came from Joey Votto not being a good defensive first baseman. Maybe he'll grow into one, but he's a long way off.

I think Votto jinxed himself with his comments. Since then he has been an Encarnacion-like disaster with the glove. Booting balls, missing on his (overly long) loops to the pitcher covering first, things like that. And not just the 18-inning game in which he cost the Reds a L with his error. Overall the last week he's been bad.

I love Votto and was hoping his rep as a poor defender was pure bunk. But unfortunately, it was true. Again, he could work his way into a good MLB defensive first baseman, but right now he's pretty bad compared to other MLB starting first basemen.

reds44
05-25-2008, 10:08 PM
He's played about as bad of a defensive 1st base as you are going to find.

Always Red
05-25-2008, 10:10 PM
Yes, but to be fair, he got the throw there on time, and Volkie dropped the ball.

Aronchis
05-25-2008, 10:10 PM
Incorrect. Votto's defense has been serviceable. He needs to work on his throwing, but isn't unlike many young 1stbaseman who still need to hone their game.

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 10:11 PM
Yes, but to be fair, he got the throw there on time, and Volkie dropped the ball.

A. That is true.

B. He booted the ball which made the play close and put pressure on the last-second throw to Volquez.

C. I'm not just talking about the 18-inning marathon game. Overall recently, Votto has been vinegar-poor defensively.

OnBaseMachine
05-25-2008, 10:11 PM
Votto's makes the tough plays and botches the easy ones. It happens to young guys.

Kc61
05-25-2008, 10:13 PM
I think he'll get better. Didn't he mess up another play in the ninth inning last night, with a high throw to Cordero covering? He needs work, but he'll get there.

Highlifeman21
05-25-2008, 10:14 PM
IMO, Dunn's a better defensive 1B than Votto.

I'm not sure why people think Dunn isn't good at 1B. From what I've seen when he's been there for the Reds, he's been average to maybe slightly below-average. IMO, he's a better 1B than a LF, and IMO he's an average to below-average LF (definitely not the -20 runs a year, or whatever garbage stat that is that gets thrown around these parts like a football at a tailgate... ).

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 10:14 PM
Incorrect. Votto's defense has been serviceable. He needs to work on his throwing, but isn't unlike many young 1stbaseman who still need to hone their game.

No one is going to hang Votto for one bad play. That is going to happen. But I am starting to notice a disturbing trend. But unlike Encarnacion, at least Votto actually makes up for it with his bat.

KittyDuran
05-25-2008, 10:15 PM
Votto's makes the tough plays and botches the easy ones. It happens to young guys.See Encarnacion...

*BaseClogger*
05-25-2008, 10:16 PM
he has been an Encarnacion-like disaster

[Votto and EE] make the tough plays and struggle with the routine, but I don't know about "disaster"...

OnBaseMachine
05-25-2008, 10:17 PM
BTW Votto's saved Friday nights game with a web gem...

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 10:18 PM
"since then" being key words you convieniently omitted from that quote. Overall, Votto hasn't been bad at all. I just hope his recent struggles aren't a trend.

*BaseClogger*
05-25-2008, 10:19 PM
"since then" being key words you convieniently omitted from that quote. Overall, Votto hasn't been bad at all. I just hope his recent struggles aren't a trend.

Yeah, but emphaisis on "Encarnacion-like", when I don't see his defense as a disaster. He almost makes up for the bad throws with his range...

Always Red
05-25-2008, 10:22 PM
IMO, Dunn's a better defensive 1B than Votto.



How on earth do you know that? Half the games he played at 1B were 6 years ago. :eek:

flyer85
05-25-2008, 10:28 PM
it's ok though because Freel got in at LF

SteelSD
05-25-2008, 10:28 PM
Yeah, but emphaisis on "Encarnacion-like", when I don't see his defense as a disaster. He almost makes up for the bad throws with his range...

C'mon...you need to remember that all MLB players under 25 are finished products. They're as good as they're going to get. And in an 18 Inning game that finished with three blown saves by the Reds' bullpen, five Home Runs by the opponent, and 2 on-base events in 17 chances from it's leadoff and 2-hole hitters, it's obviously a missed toss by the 1B that lost tonight's game. ;)

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 10:30 PM
C'mon...you need to remember that all MLB players under 25 are finished products. They're as good as they're going to get. And in an 18 Inning game that finished with three blown saves by the Reds' bullpen, five Home Runs by the opponent, and 2 on-base events in 17 chances from it's leadoff and 2-hole hitters, it's obviously a missed toss by the 1B that lost tonight's game. ;)

Good point. No one ever mentioned that Votto could develop into a good defensive 1B one day, or that this one error doesn't define him as a defensive 1B, or that he's actually been pretty good overall.

Oh wait, those points were made several times already. Nevermind.

*BaseClogger*
05-25-2008, 10:33 PM
Good point. No one ever mentioned that Votto could develop into a good defensive 1B one day, or that this one error doesn't define him as a defensive 1B, or that he's actually been pretty good overall.

Oh wait, those points were made several times already. Nevermind.

Yet, this thread is titled "Well, Votto's poor defense finally reared its ugly head"...

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 10:35 PM
Yet, this thread is titled "Well, Votto's poor defense finally reared its ugly head"...

Yes, smartbutt, over the last week (or however long it's been) Votto's defense has reared its ugly head. I wasn't referring to just this one game as I pointed out immediately in the thread.

I just found it odd that Votto had this bad reputation defensively coming into the year, then he was actually pretty solid for a while, and now he's living up to his rep. Sorry if that is a strange concept.

flyer85
05-25-2008, 10:36 PM
the funny thing is that Dusty has a woody for switching out Dunn while leaving even poorer defenders much likely to be a bigger issue at RF, 1b, SS and 3b.

Kc61
05-25-2008, 10:37 PM
C'mon...you need to remember that all MLB players under 25 are finished products. They're as good as they're going to get. And in an 18 Inning game that finished with three blown saves by the Reds' bullpen, five Home Runs by the opponent, and 2 on-base events in 17 chances from it's leadoff and 2-hole hitters, it's obviously a missed toss by the 1B that lost tonight's game. ;)

Well, it didn't help.

But Votto can hit. Reds need to stick with Votto and help him on defense because this kid can hit and seems capable of some very good offensive years.

The guy at third base, however, is starting to bother me. I know he was sick today, but these long, long slumps really hurt the team. If the Reds sign Dunn, they will have three lefty bats at key offensive positions. They will need a good hitting righty hitting third baseman and I'm not sure they have one.

And I agree with flyer that it makes no sense to keep double switching Dunn, particularly when he is red hot like now. Why not let Griffey sit a little? He's 38 and playing 18 innings in a day game after a night game? (Probably under instructions to get that 600th over with, let Griff play every inning until it happens.)

Finally, the Reds need to get Bruce in centerfield now. Patterson can stay as a defensive back up or he can go, whatever, but he can't hit lead off and shouldn't be in the regular outfield.

flyer85
05-25-2008, 10:39 PM
Well, it didn't help.

But Votto can hit. Reds need to stick with Votto and help him on defense because this kid can hit and seems capable of some very good offensive years.

The guy at third base, however, is starting to bother me. I know he was sick today, but these long, long slumps really hurt the team. If the Reds sign Dunn, they will have three lefty bats at key offensive positions. They will need a good hitting righty hitting third baseman and I'm not sure they have one.Reds have a lot bigger holes than 3b to address first. Edwin is a ways down the list.

*BaseClogger*
05-25-2008, 10:41 PM
I just found it odd that Votto had this bad reputation defensively coming into the year, then he was actually pretty solid for a while, and now he's living up to his rep. Sorry if that is a strange concept.

No, what seems strange to me is that you are suprised when a player lives up to his reputation and was convinced he had changed because of a small sample...

Kc61
05-25-2008, 10:42 PM
Reds have a lot bigger holes than 3b to address first. Edwin is a ways down the list.


Maybe, but he's on the list.

*BaseClogger*
05-25-2008, 10:42 PM
these long, long slumps [by Encarnacion] really hurt the team.

They do, but when he is hot they can carry the team. It evens out IMO...

flyer85
05-25-2008, 10:42 PM
Maybe, but he's on the list.so are about 15 other guys

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 10:44 PM
Someone needs to get Edwin some Prozac or Paxil -- dude always looks depressed. That can't help his already subpar game.

Kc61
05-25-2008, 10:47 PM
They do, but when he is hot they can carry the team. It evens out IMO...

If that's the kind of player you want. And by the way, EE's hot streaks aren't like Dunn's, they don't carry the team.

EE hit very well in the first half of 2006. Since then, since mid-2006, EE's offense has been checkered with long slumps, not just a couple of weeks. He had one in the second half of 2006; last year he had a terrible slump that resulted in his going down to AAA; this year he started terribly; then a brief hot streak; now another slump.

EE is one of the "can't do wrong" guys around here, but his best attribute right now is his relative youth. Maybe he'll get better. But the team has two important righty offensive players, EE is one of them, and he is very, very inconsistent.

I remember a recent thread comparing EE's offense with Phillips'. No comparison. And to get back to the subject of this thread, Votto in a short time seems to have a more consisent bat than EE.

SteelSD
05-25-2008, 10:48 PM
Good point. No one ever mentioned that Votto could develop into a good defensive 1B one day, or that this one error doesn't define him as a defensive 1B, or that he's actually been pretty good overall.

Oh wait, those points were made several times already. Nevermind.

Unfortunately, you can't simply obfuscate your opinion of Votto's defense after starting a completely reactionary thread about said defense after a game was perpetuated by everything but Votto's defense. Here's what you said:


I love Votto and was hoping his rep as a poor defender was pure bunk. But unfortunately, it was true...

...And not just the 18-inning game in which he cost the Reds a L with his error.

So, one play during an 18-Inning game where Reds' bullpen couldn't hold a lead to save their lives and Votto is the culprit? Not even close. And it's pretty clear that you consider Votto to be a poor defender via your "...it was true..." comment.


Yes, smartbutt...

Your post really could have stopped after that comment. I've never considered snark to be an issue, but if snark is all you have...well...

Chip R
05-25-2008, 10:49 PM
Someone needs to get Edwin some Prozac or Paxil -- dude always looks depressed. That can't help his already subpar game.


Not hugging enough people for your taste?

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 10:51 PM
Not hugging enough people for your taste?

I don't need man love, but not acting like he's about to kill himself would be a good start. Edwin never looks like he's having fun playing baseball. And he's not very intense either. Usually it's one or the other or some kind of combination for the vast majority of baseball players. Edwin on the other hand is just out there floating (and sinking the more he plays).

flyer85
05-25-2008, 10:55 PM
Edwin never looks like he's having fun playing baseball. And he's not very intense either. everyone expresses things differently, often the external belies the internal. I'll focus on production and not worry about the other stuff.

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 10:59 PM
everyone expresses things differently, often the external belies the internal. I'll focus on production and not worry about the other stuff.

Yeah, I'll admit I wouldn't care about Edwin's attitude if he was producing. But being shallow like I am, I can't help but notice it. Edwin is the opposite of an intense/smart baseball player. He never looks focused and always looks aloof. If he was hitting .300 with 30 jacks I wouldn't care. But being the overall crappy player that he is, I can't help but point out that his attitude leaves a lot to be desired as well. The only time I see EE get fired up is when he strikes out.

SteelSD
05-25-2008, 11:04 PM
Well, it didn't help.

But Votto can hit. Reds need to stick with Votto and help him on defense because this kid can hit and seems capable of some very good offensive years.

Agreed. He'll be fine. The guy isn't a DH waiting to happen and anyone who expected to see his current stick with a gold glove was setting themself up to be disappointed.


The guy at third base, however, is starting to bother me. I know he was sick today, but these long, long slumps really hurt the team. If the Reds sign Dunn, they will have three lefty bats at key offensive positions. They will need a good hitting righty hitting third baseman and I'm not sure they have one.

If Encarnacion were perceived to be Scott Rolen defensively right now, there isn't a single Reds' fan who'd complain about an .800 OPS. I really don't care much about "slumps". they happen to every player


And I agree with flyer that it makes no sense to keep double switching Dunn, particularly when he is red hot like now. Why not let Griffey sit a little? He's 38 and playing 18 innings in a day game after a night game? (Probably under instructions to get that 600th over with, let Griff play every inning until it happens.)

Don't even get me started on the inane double-switching. So far, it's like a guy who plays checkers wants to try his hand at chess, but who doesn't really understand how the rules of the game work.


Finally, the Reds need to get Bruce in centerfield now. Patterson can stay as a defensive back up or he can go, whatever, but he can't hit lead off and shouldn't be in the regular outfield.

If Patterson is replaced (as he should be), then he just needs to go elsewhere. All the better to release him than ask that Baker not place his deficient bat at the top of the lineup.

*BaseClogger*
05-25-2008, 11:04 PM
Amidst a slump, EE has a 100 OPS+, which is average...

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 11:08 PM
For the record, I think Votto will be fine defensively in a few years. But he didn't get this rep for nothing as we're learning first hand. If you think he's already a good first baseman, you are kidding yourself IMO. But again, Votto has the athletic ability, hands and work ethic to be a good defensive 1B down the line. Overall he has been better than I expected this year. Hopefully this last week has been an aberration.

*BaseClogger*
05-25-2008, 11:08 PM
For the record, I think Votto will be fine defensively in a few years. But he didn't get this rep for nothing as we're learning first hand. If you think he's already a good first baseman, you are kidding yourself IMO. But again, Votto has the athletic ability, hands and work ethic to be a good defensive 1B down the line. Overall he has been better than I expected this year. Hopefully this last week has been an aberration.

There ya go... ;)

jojo
05-25-2008, 11:11 PM
How on earth do you know that? Half the games he played at 1B were 6 years ago. :eek:

It's easy...just ignore garbage stats.... :cool: :D :p:


Dunn as a firstbaseman is the defensive equivalent of David Ortiz....

flyer85
05-25-2008, 11:16 PM
It's easy...just ignore garbage stats.... :cool: :D :p:


Dunn as a firstbaseman is the defensive equivalent of David Ortiz....
that would be Casey is the equivalent of Ortiz, they are both statues who can't move their feet. In the case of Ortiz he can't catch it either unless you hit him in the face.

jojo
05-25-2008, 11:18 PM
Votto projects to be a a slightly above average firstbaseman. Can't we just enjoy getting that from a single human (for the next 5 1/2 years no less!) rather than having to cross our fingers that we'll see the Reds keep squeezing blood from turnips in cheap platoons?

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 11:19 PM
Votto projects to be a a slightly above average firstbaseman. Can't we just enjoy getting that from a single human (for the next 5 1/2 years no less!) rather than having to cross our fingers that we'll see the Reds keep squeezing blood from turnips in cheap platoons?

Yes?

(And I think Votto is going to be better than "slightly above average.")

PuffyPig
05-25-2008, 11:21 PM
Votto has been an average fielding firstbaseman this year.

Errors happen.

jojo
05-25-2008, 11:40 PM
Yes?

(And I think Votto is going to be better than "slightly above average.")

Lets assume Votto will become at least an average defender simply through force of will (work ethic) despite being past the typical defensive prime (it's only first base after all).

Here was the NL average for first baseman:
'05: .280/.361/.482 OPS: .844
'06: .290/.372/.507 OPS: .879
'07: .284/.365/.481 OPS: .846

Here was Votto's 6 seasons in the minors:
.289/.385/.476 OPS: .861

Here's what Pecota suggests he'll do as a Red in the next several years
'08: .280/.360/.499
'09: .286/.366/.521
'10: .283/.366/.510
'11: .284/.369/.507
'12: .282/.365/.516
'13: .276/.362/.492
'14: .279/.367/.505

Typically, an average first baseman will have a VORP of roughly 20 give or take. Pecota predicts Votto will average a VORP of 23.5 over the 7 seasons they've projected for him.

It's not destiny nor absolute truth-it's just a reasonable argument.

Kc61
05-25-2008, 11:48 PM
If Encarnacion were perceived to be Scott Rolen defensively right now, there isn't a single Reds' fan who'd complain about an .800 OPS. I really don't care much about "slumps". they happen to every player





Unfortunately, EE is not Scott Rolen defensively and needs another .20 to get to an .800 OPS, which isn't that good.

Patrick Bateman
05-25-2008, 11:50 PM
Votto's been inconsistent on defense.... far from being awful as the original author suggested, but also with lots of things to improve on. I see a lot of potential in his fielding. He's a terrific athlete for a first basemen, and thusly, has the range required to be a very good fielder. As OBM noted, he displayed that talent last night being a big key in our victory. He's had his share of mishaps, but that's been evened out by the plays an average first basemen doesn't even get to.

Votto strikes me as a guy that's going to do a lot of good for the Reds in his career.... and honestly, I've been very impressed with him this year, to the tune that I think he can build on the projection Jojo posted above. From his past scouting reports he didn't jump out at me as being a power hitter, but to date, his opposite field and even straight away power has been quite impressive. IMO, he's got a higher ceiling than what's been pegged for him over the years.... and that goes for his fielding too. Just an impressive all around package for me.

jojo
05-25-2008, 11:55 PM
Votto's been inconsistent on defense.... far from being awful as the original author suggested, but also with lots of things to improve on. I see a lot of potential in his fielding. He's a terrific athlete for a first basemen, and thusly, has the range required to be a very good fielder. As OBM noted, he displayed that talent last night being a big key in our victory. He's had his share of mishaps, but that's been evened out by the plays an average first basemen doesn't even get to.

Votto strikes me as a guy that's going to do a lot of good for the Reds in his career.... and honestly, I've been very impressed with him this year, to the tune that I think he can build on the projection Jojo posted above. From his past scouting reports he didn't jump out at me as being a power hitter, but to date, his opposite field and even straight away power has been quite impressive. IMO, he's got a higher ceiling than what's been pegged for him over the years.... and that goes for his fielding too. Just an impressive all around package for me.

Ya. It's pretty tough to make a strong argument that Votto is "part of the problem" IMHO.

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 11:56 PM
Votto's been inconsistent on defense.... far from being awful as the original author suggested, but also with lots of things to improve on. I see a lot of potential in his fielding. He's a terrific athlete for a first basemen, and thusly, has the range required to be a very good fielder. As OBM noted, he displayed that talent last night being a big key in our victory. He's had his share of mishaps, but that's been evened out by the plays an average first basemen doesn't even get to.

Votto strikes me as a guy that's going to do a lot of good for the Reds in his career.... and honestly, I've been very impressed with him this year, to the tune that I think he can build on the projection Jojo posted above. From his past scouting reports he didn't jump out at me as being a power hitter, but to date, his opposite field and even straight away power has been quite impressive. IMO, he's got a higher ceiling than what's been pegged for him over the years.... and that goes for his fielding too. Just an impressive all around package for me.

You need to read a little bit better. I never said he was awful, far from it. I said overall he's been solid and better defensively than I thought he would be coming into the season. It's just lately, he's lived up to the rep he had coming into the season. Votto has quickly become one of my favorite Reds and I wanted to believe the "he's a bad defensive player" was complete garbage.

Blitz Dorsey
05-25-2008, 11:57 PM
Ya. It's pretty tough to make a strong argument that Votto is "part of the problem" IMHO.

Votto is defintely not part of the problem. He is part of the solution IMO.

Patrick Bateman
05-26-2008, 12:01 AM
You need to read a little bit better. I never said he was awful, far from it. I said overall he's been solid and better defensively than I thought he would be coming into the season. It's just lately, he's lived up to the rep he had coming into the season. Votto has quickly become one of my favorite Reds and I wanted to believe the "he's a bad defensive player" was complete garbage.

My reading skills are fine thank you very much.


It came from Joey Votto not being a good defensive first baseman. Maybe he'll grow into one, but he's a long way off.


I love Votto and was hoping his rep as a poor defender was pure bunk. But unfortunately, it was true.


but right now he's pretty bad compared to other MLB starting first basemen.

How I got "awful defensive first basemen" from your original post is really quite baffling to me. My bad. Clearly these comments speak to the testament of "far from awful".

Blitz Dorsey
05-26-2008, 12:12 AM
Ha, you have a future in politics. That is some selective reading. I could go through and cherry pick quotes when I said Votto has been solid defensively overall and better than I thought (check page 3 if you would like) but I'll leave that to the future political advertisers.

Votto is going to be an All-Star here. He is one of my favorite Reds. But you can't call a spade a spade without a few of the vocal minority coming down from the peanut gallery yelling.

Blitz Dorsey
05-26-2008, 12:17 AM
Since Austin Kearns "convieniently" forgot to quote this one...


For the record, I think Votto will be fine defensively in a few years. But he didn't get this rep for nothing as we're learning first hand. If you think he's already a good first baseman, you are kidding yourself IMO. But again, Votto has the athletic ability, hands and work ethic to be a good defensive 1B down the line. Overall he has been better than I expected this year. Hopefully this last week has been an aberration.

Patrick Bateman
05-26-2008, 12:21 AM
Since Austin Kearns "convieniently" forgot to quote this one...

I didn't forget that one. I was looking for quotes that discussed your views on Votto's defensive ability RIGHT NOW (note your stance on his potential has nothing to do with this). The only thing in that quote at all salvageable for you was "he's better than I thought". Which is really meaningless in articulating his current defensive prowess. Maybe you thought he would be the second coming of Mo Vaughn out there, and you were pleased he was a step up from that. Perhaps you were expecting Votto to use his cap to scoop up ground balls and slap the ass of every baseruner waltzing by first base. I don't have the slightest clue what rank I'm supposed to apply to "better than I thought". "Bad relative to his peers" seemed pretty straightforward to me.

Whatever you want to call it, you made it very clear that right now you consider his defense well below average, and is costing the Reds. Whatever word you want to use there, that's what you said. I have zero problem with that stance, I just happen to disagree. End of discussion. That is unless you want to continue arguing semantics, if so feel free to shoot me a PM.

Patrick Bateman
05-26-2008, 12:23 AM
Ha, you have a future in politics. That is some selective reading. I could go through and cherry pick quotes when I said Votto has been solid defensively overall and better than I thought (check page 3 if you would like) but I'll leave that to the future political advertisers.


So you think he's anywhere between "well below average" and "solid". Seriously, I don't read minds. Your opinion is jumping all over the place. Don't crap on me because your a flip-flopper.


But you can't call a spade a spade without a few of the vocal minority coming down from the peanut gallery yelling.

I have zero problem with "calling a spade a spade". None. This team has plenty of problems. Pointing blame at Votto seems to be a pretty useless excercise to me. The only thing I take exception to is someone calling a "spade a spade" and then saying the exact opposite 1 post later, and then questioning MY reading comprehension skills. Before that happened I saw no problem with you expressing your views on what was a perceived flaw in Votto's game.

Blitz Dorsey
05-26-2008, 12:25 AM
I love it when someone says "end of discussion" then continues to rant.

I agree about the PM and semantics though. I'm with you on that.

Topcat
05-26-2008, 02:26 AM
Wow talk about beating up on a rookie. Sorry his game has been far more plus than negative. face it defense isn't the issue its run production. Red's have that and there is not a peep n any issue if the record was good.

How about the obvious promise of the pitching by the kids? How about the obvious above expected production at Catcher? ! good serious run and the bats clicking and this teams a contender. I must stress wow way ahead of where i thought they would be at this time. On a negative note jesus wish Wayne K was here. Talk about a bone head over reactionary move by Bob castellini.

OnBaseMachine
05-26-2008, 11:28 AM
Votto's been inconsistent on defense.... far from being awful as the original author suggested, but also with lots of things to improve on. I see a lot of potential in his fielding. He's a terrific athlete for a first basemen, and thusly, has the range required to be a very good fielder. As OBM noted, he displayed that talent last night being a big key in our victory. He's had his share of mishaps, but that's been evened out by the plays an average first basemen doesn't even get to.

Votto strikes me as a guy that's going to do a lot of good for the Reds in his career.... and honestly, I've been very impressed with him this year, to the tune that I think he can build on the projection Jojo posted above. From his past scouting reports he didn't jump out at me as being a power hitter, but to date, his opposite field and even straight away power has been quite impressive. IMO, he's got a higher ceiling than what's been pegged for him over the years.... and that goes for his fielding too. Just an impressive all around package for me.

Nice post.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2008, 03:45 PM
I'll take my chances with Votto...let's not start moving him around

Blitz Dorsey
05-26-2008, 06:00 PM
Oh yeah, no one has suggested moving Votto around. He will be an All-Star first baseman in Cincinnati. He will never be a Gold Glove first baseman, but he will be a multiple-time All-Star IMO.

membengal
05-28-2008, 05:09 PM
Some Votto perspective:

Player A

.284/.347/.535 10 HR 27 rbi 2 SB 25 r

Player B

.281/.380/.505 9 HR 36 rbi 7 sb 31 r

Obviously player A is Votto.

Player B? Hint: he's inconsistent with the glove too. And then some. Few complain...

ETA:

Player A 7 errors in 347 innings (one every 49.5 innings)
Player B 9 errors in 450 innings (one every 50 innings)

membengal
05-28-2008, 05:20 PM
Player A: Votto. DOB: September 10, 1983

Player B: David Wright. DOB: December 20, 1982

jojo
05-28-2008, 07:46 PM
Some Votto perspective:

Player A

.284/.347/.535 10 HR 27 rbi 2 SB 25 r

Player B

.281/.380/.505 9 HR 36 rbi 7 sb 31 r

Obviously player A is Votto.

Player B? Hint: he's inconsistent with the glove too. And then some. Few complain...

ETA:

Player A 7 errors in 347 innings (one every 49.5 innings)
Player B 9 errors in 450 innings (one every 50 innings)

Really Wright is a much more valuable player and it's not close.

membengal
05-28-2008, 07:59 PM
I would agree, jojo. Where did I say they were equally valuable? That said, I think people here take Votto's offense a bit for granted, and are unaware of how good he is. I also think people here underestimate how more well-known stars struggle with the same issues with the glove at similar ages as Reds players do.

Hence, a quick note of comparison.

OnBaseMachine
05-28-2008, 08:10 PM
Votto just made a very nice play at first base. It makes the tough plays looks easy and easy plays look tough. That's something he'll improve upon IMO.

RedsManRick
05-28-2008, 08:42 PM
I think it's a fair point. Votto's bat hasn't just been decent. He's hitting like an all-star. It's does seem that we're taking his production for granted, but perhaps that's a testament to his maturity and Baker's willingness to play him everyday.

Blitz Dorsey
05-28-2008, 08:53 PM
Votto rakes. He is an absolute stud of a hitter.

jojo
05-28-2008, 08:55 PM
I haven't gotten the sense that Votto is being taken for granted.

oregonred
05-28-2008, 09:00 PM
I think the Reds now have 11-12 of the 25 man born in 1980 or later (Dunner is late '79).

KronoRed
05-28-2008, 09:51 PM
I think the Reds now have 11-12 of the 25 man born in 1980 or later (Dunner is late '79).

Depressing, the number of players younger then me goes up everyday :help:

oregonred
05-28-2008, 09:55 PM
Depressing, the number of players younger then me goes up everyday :help:

No kidding. Now we've got young whippersnappers who weren't even born yet when I was in high school (Cueto, Bruce) :thumbdown

RedlegJake
05-28-2008, 10:40 PM
No kidding. Now we've got young whippersnappers who weren't even born yet when I was in high school (Cueto, Bruce) :thumbdown

I have kids older than some of these guys.

In fact I was kidding with my son Russ who is 6-8 and quit playing baseball to join the army after HS. "You were supposed to be my major leaguer" His reply:
"You can't fight genetics, you were supposed to be an athlete first"

*BaseClogger*
05-28-2008, 11:32 PM
I have kids older than some of these guys.

In fact I was kidding with my son Russ who is 6-8 and quit playing baseball to join the army after HS. "You were supposed to be my major leaguer" His reply:
"You can't fight genetics, you were supposed to be an athlete first"

:lol:

OnBaseMachine
05-29-2008, 01:49 AM
Votto works through throwing errors
Cincinnati (25-28) vs. Pittsburgh (24-28), Thursday, 7:10 p.m. ET
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- The first baseman fields a ground ball, and either makes an easy toss or underhand pitch to the pitcher or second baseman covering the bag.

Sounds routine, right?

For Reds first baseman Joey Votto, it's developed into a bit of a problem -- one that's shown up in recent games. Two of Votto's seven errors this season came in recent games when he cleanly fielded ground balls and botched the throw to first.

"I should probably be a little more conservative with my decisions," Votto said. "I've just got to keep working at it and I'll get it solved."

With one runner on in the first against the Pirates on Monday, Votto fielded Jack Wilson's bunt. Votto looked up to second base to check for the forceout, then turned to first and threw the ball too high and too far behind Johny Cueto, who ran to cover the base from the pitcher's mound.

With one out and one on in the 18th inning against the Padres on Sunday, Votto fielded Brian Giles' grounder, but flubbed the toss to Edinson Volquez, who was covering first. It set up Adrian Gonzalez's game-winning, three-run home run in the next at-bat.

"In both situations, I made bad throws," Votto said. "Yesterday, I shouldn't have thrown to Johnny because no one was covering the base. And then the game before with Edinson, the throw was a little bit off.

To quell the problem, Votto is working with infield coach Chris Speier on the mechanics of the throw and on making the decision whether to make the throw or tag first himself.

"He's just got to work to close the gap so the flip isn't so long," Reds manager Dusty Baker said. "Sometimes, the flip may not be necessary and he needs to take it himself."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080528&content_id=2790003&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

bucksfan2
05-29-2008, 09:02 AM
Votto is a converted catcher and a lot of his problems seem to deal with footwork. He will get better and you just have to live with his errors. So far this season he has been the best reds hitter. He has had some problems but you see what kind of 1b he can be. Not everyone comes to the majors as a finished product. Votto seems like he is a guy who will continue to work at this game until he becomes one of the best. IIRC Pujols was a butcher of a 1b at first but he worked his way into one of the best in the game.