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Reds Fanatic
05-26-2008, 09:36 AM
This is from John Fay's blog. No one will be coming up to take a start Bronson will just pitch Wednesday on 3 days rest.


Sunday’s 18-inning affair forced the Reds to make a change in pitching rotation.


Tue vs Pit: RHP Johnny Cueto (2-5, 5.56) vs RHP Ian Snell (2-3, 4.84) wlw/fsn ohio, 7:10

Wed vs Pit: RHP Bronson Arroyo (3-4, 5.68) vs LHP Tom Gorzelanny (4-4, 6.31) wlw/fsn ohio, 7:10

Thu vs Pit: RHP Aaron Harang (2-6, 3.32) vs LHP Zach Duke (2-4, 4.55) wlw/fsn ohio, 7:10

Fri vs Atl: RHP Edinson Volquez (7-2, 1.31) vs LHP Tom Glavine (2-2, 4.76) wlw/fsn ohio, 7:10

Sat vs Atl: RHP Matt Belisle (1-4, 7.28) vs RHP Jair Jurrjens (Monday) wlw/FOX, 3:55

Sun vs Atl: RHP Johnny Cueto vs RHP Tim Hudson (Tuesday) wlw/fsn ohio, 1:15

Degenerate39
05-26-2008, 09:41 AM
What are the chances they get swept by the Pirates and Braves again?

Redhook
05-26-2008, 09:44 AM
Oh Dusty.

I think Harang will respond ok from yesterday's debacle. I'm not worried about him.

I am worried about Volquez though. He seems pretty tough, but I imagine he'll be affected by yesterday's game physically and mentally. I don't think anyone expects him to keep his sub 2.00 ERA all year, but I won't be surprised if he coincidentally has some poor outings in the near future. I hope he doesn't, but you just don't mess around with young guys.

Oh Dusty.

lollipopcurve
05-26-2008, 09:54 AM
stupid

In my opinion, someone should be promoted to start on Wednesday so that Arroyo and Harang don't have to go on 3 days (Arroyo for the 2nd time in 4 starts?) and Volquez gets an extra day -- so far the Red Sox have pulled guys up for spot starts a few times already, in order to keep their rotation on regular rest, and it seems to me the Red Sox know a thing or two -- this isn't a pennant race coming down the stretch, or maybe it is, here in May, given that Big Bob has declared the losing will stop......

Tony Cloninger
05-26-2008, 10:13 AM
What is this mental stuff you are worried about for Volquez?

How is yesterday's game such a mental devastation? He lost a game...and it's not the first time he has done that. He has pitched worse than this and survived when he was with TEX. He is getting 4 days rest now.

I am sure he will have some bad games in the future....that's not saying anything mind bending ....every pitcher has bad games. To correlate this game with a bad game in the future is really pushing it and just looking for something that is not there.

westofyou
05-26-2008, 10:44 AM
"Too many pitchers, that's all, there are just too many pitchers. Ten or twelve on a team. Don't see how any of them get enough work."

Cy Young

OnBaseMachine
05-26-2008, 10:58 AM
Oh Dusty.

I think Harang will respond ok from yesterday's debacle. I'm not worried about him.

I am worried about Volquez though. He seems pretty tough, but I imagine he'll be affected by yesterday's game physically and mentally. I don't think anyone expects him to keep his sub 2.00 ERA all year, but I won't be surprised if he coincidentally has some poor outings in the near future. I hope he doesn't, but you just don't mess around with young guys.

Oh Dusty.

I agree with everything in this post.

Marc D
05-26-2008, 11:00 AM
"Too many pitchers, that's all, there are just too many pitchers. Ten or twelve on a team. Don't see how any of them get enough work."

Cy Young

"My arm hurts"

-Mark Prior

"Mine too"

-Kerry Wood

Chip R
05-26-2008, 11:00 AM
"My arm hurts"

-Mark Prior

"Mine too"

-Kerry Wood


:lol:

Redhook
05-26-2008, 11:01 AM
What is this mental stuff you are worried about for Volquez?

How is yesterday's game such a mental devastation? He lost a game...and it's not the first time he has done that. He has pitched worse than this and survived when he was with TEX. He is getting 4 days rest now.

I am sure he will have some bad games in the future....that's not saying anything mind bending ....every pitcher has bad games. To correlate this game with a bad game in the future is really pushing it and just looking for something that is not there.

We'll see what happens. Giving up a game-winning home run in the 18th inning of a game he should've never been involved in could affect him.

It's not going to devastate his mental state, but why mess with success? Volquez has been damn near perfect thus far, why get him out of his routine? Poor decision by Dusty if you ask me.

HokieRed
05-26-2008, 11:02 AM
The most depressing thing I see is that Matt Belisle still seems to be on the ballclub.

Redhook
05-26-2008, 11:06 AM
The most depressing thing I see is that Matt Belisle still seems to be on the ballclub.

I can trump that...

Patterson, Janish, Griffey batting 1-3. Worst top 3 in baseball? I think so.

Belisle has been bad, but I still wouldn't mind him in the long relief spot instead of Fogg. Belisle seems to be the lesser of two evils.

HokieRed
05-26-2008, 11:08 AM
Redhook, I agree about what's worst, I was just referring to the rotation issue. Nothing would have made me happier than to look at RZ this morning and see that Patterson, Belisle, and Fogg had all been outrighted. That might not be smart from a financial point of view, but would mean the beginning of the end of denial.

mth123
05-26-2008, 11:08 AM
I don't think Harang or Volquez will be adversely affected given the rotation adjustment.

It was still a mistake though.

jojo
05-26-2008, 11:16 AM
"My arm hurts"

-Mark Prior

"Mine too"

-Kerry Wood

Dusty's arms should endeavor to persevere....

"Endeavor to persevere. We went back and thought about that, Endeavor to Persevere, and when we had thought about it long enough, we declared war on the Union."- Lone Watie from The Outlaw Josie Wales


:cool:

reds44
05-26-2008, 02:14 PM
I'm not worried at all about Harang. He pitched well yesterday and he has the build to take the extra pitches in stride. Could yesterday mess with Edinson's arm and head, yeah but I'm nottoo worried about it either.

The only thing I don't get is with Belisle struggling anyway, not call up Maloney or Thompson and push Harang and Volquez back a day and send Belisle down. It couldn't hurt.

fearofpopvol1
05-26-2008, 02:19 PM
I'm not worried at all about Harang. He pitched well yesterday and he has the build to take the extra pitches in stride. Could yesterday mess with Edinson's arm and head, yeah but I'm nottoo worried about it either.

The only thing I don't get is with Belisle struggling anyway, not call up Maloney or Thompson and push Harang and Volquez back a day and send Belisle down. It couldn't hurt.

I agree 100% with you.

paulrichjr
05-26-2008, 02:23 PM
Everyone wanted Jocketty because of his track record. I'm still waiting for him to make a single decision that affects this club in a good way. This is an example of someone making bad decisions....I don't care what the outcome is. Arroyo should not go on 3 days rest again. Period. Someone should be called up. Also, why is Jocketty allowing Dusty to continue this madness with the lineup? It is simply time for him to get rid of Dusty's favorite chew toy - Corey Patterson. Oh wait this isn't a get rid of Patterson thread. I guess I need to find one of the 50 that we already have on this board. (This is meant to be a smart remark about the board...I would like to start another one also)

RedFanAlways1966
05-26-2008, 02:34 PM
We'll see what happens. Giving up a game-winning home run in the 18th inning of a game he should've never been involved in could affect him.

It's not going to devastate his mental state, but why mess with success? Volquez has been damn near perfect thus far, why get him out of his routine? Poor decision by Dusty if you ask me.


Should've never been involved? Yep... but blame the crap called a bullpen, not Dusty. Nobody (esp. Dusty) wanted to see Harang or Volquez in that game. But unfortunately three blown saves allowed that to happen. People will complain that Dusty should have used this reliever or that reliever longer, but he played his cards in a fashion to win at the time he played them. Managers do not expect pitchers to give up game tying homers (twice) and multiple hits (once) when they make the moves.

So once you get to a 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th inning, what is the manager supposed to do? Arroyo is out b/c he threw 6+ IP the day before. Cueto is out b/c he is due to pitch the next game. Volquez was pretty much used b/c no one is available. I guess a forfeit is a possibility.

I am not a Dusty apologist, but sometimes there isn't much choice.

11larkin11
05-26-2008, 02:41 PM
Everyone wanted Jocketty because of his track record. I'm still waiting for him to make a single decision that affects this club in a good way. This is an example of someone making bad decisions....I don't care what the outcome is. Arroyo should not go on 3 days rest again. Period. Someone should be called up. Also, why is Jocketty allowing Dusty to continue this madness with the lineup? It is simply time for him to get rid of Dusty's favorite chew toy - Corey Patterson. Oh wait this isn't a get rid of Patterson thread. I guess I need to find one of the 50 that we already have on this board. (This is meant to be a smart remark about the board...I would like to start another one also)


I have no problem with Arroyo going on 3 days rest, because he has stated he likes 3 days rest better and has pitched better on 3 days rest in his career. He started his turnaround this year on 3 days rest. Harang, OTOH, after going 5 1/3, then 2 days rest, then 4 innings, then 3 days rest, does concern me.

PuffyPig
05-26-2008, 02:42 PM
Should've never been involved? Yep... but blame the crap called a bullpen, not Dusty. Nobody (esp. Dusty) wanted to see Harang or Volquez in that game. But unfortunately three blown saves allowed that to happen. People will complain that Dusty should have used this reliever or that reliever longer, but he played his cards in a fashion to win at the time he played them. Managers do not expect pitchers to give up game tying homers (twice) and multiple hits (once) when they make the moves.



Bray likley represented the best chance to pitch the 11th inning and give up less than 2 runs. Starting with Fogg (and then going to Bray) meant that it was likely that a starter might be needed. Everyong knows that the last pitcher used in an extra inning game has to be the one that can go the longest. That's Fogg.

Bray and Fogg.

Not Fogg and Bray.

it was really that simple.

Bray is better, and will likely get you the win. But Fogg is the safety valve.

Fogg was more likely to blow the save, and then you wasted the safety valve.

it never made any sense.

11larkin11
05-26-2008, 02:43 PM
Should've never been involved? Yep... but blame the crap called a bullpen, not Dusty. Nobody (esp. Dusty) wanted to see Harang or Volquez in that game. But unfortunately three blown saves allowed that to happen. People will complain that Dusty should have used this reliever or that reliever longer, but he played his cards in a fashion to win at the time he played them. Managers do not expect pitchers to give up game tying homers (twice) and multiple hits (once) when they make the moves.

So once you get to a 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th inning, what is the manager supposed to do? Arroyo is out b/c he threw 6+ IP the day before. Cueto is out b/c he is due to pitch the next game. Volquez was pretty much used b/c no one is available. I guess a forfeit is a possibility.

I am not a Dusty apologist, but sometimes there isn't much choice.


Blame Dusty for telling Speier to use Cordero Saturday, then switching the real order Bray and Fogg should have been used in on Sunday.

HokieRed
05-26-2008, 02:51 PM
Want to assign blame? Dusty, Patterson, the bullpen etc. Wayne--the gift that keeps on giving.

lollipopcurve
05-26-2008, 02:52 PM
Everyong knows that the last pitcher used in an extra inning game has to be the one that can go the longest. That's Fogg.


Yeah -- it's elementary. When you screw it up, you have to go to starters or position players, and the ripple effect can last... like having starters come back on short rest (Harang) or without extra rest (Volquez). You gotta wonder what they're trying to prove.

11larkin11
05-26-2008, 02:57 PM
Want to assign blame? Dusty, Patterson, the bullpen etc. Wayne--the gift that keeps on giving.

I lay no blame on Krivsky. Dusty? You know that was all Bob. Patterson? You know that was all Dusty with him telling Bob what Wayne should do. Really, the bullpen. What isn't there to do? We have done so many attempts to the bullpen, and some have worked, we have put talent there and they haven't performed. I miss Wayne, and feel bad because this team is already Dusty, Walt, and Bob's. Wayne had no chance this season, and he didn't have enough time as a GM to make his mark, although the low minors is looking pretty good.

Cedric
05-26-2008, 03:17 PM
Rarely will I blame a manager for something. Hindsight is always 20/20. This time the Bray/Fogg decision was 20/20 from the start and it's completely unacceptable that someone managing a MLB team would screw up that bad. It's even worse when you consider how overpaid the man is.

Caveat Emperor
05-26-2008, 04:38 PM
Harang will be fine. He's a throwback in every sense of the word -- give him the ball, good things happen. His delivery seems to put very little stress on his arm.

Volquez is the one I'm worried about.

mbgrayson
05-26-2008, 07:11 PM
Harang usage:
103 Pitches on 5/22,
63 Pitches on 5/25 (2 days rest)
Goes again on 5/29 (3 days rest)

Arroyo usage:
99 pitches on 5/19
107 pitches on 5/24
Goes again on 5/28 (3 days rest)

Volquez usage:
111 pitches on 5/18
92 pitches on 5/23
39 pitches on 5/25 (1 day rest)
Goes again on 5/30

Cueto usage:
96 pitches on 5/16
114 pitches on 5/21
Goes again on 5/27

Belisle usage:
85 pitches on 5/20
95 pitches on 5/25
Goes again(?) on 5/31

Each pitcher has at least 4 days rest unless otherwise noted. So the net effect of last night's game was that three different pitchers went or are going on short rest, and Harng is doing it twice.

cincrazy
05-26-2008, 07:56 PM
The most depressing thing I see is that Matt Belisle still seems to be on the ballclub.

On the bright side for Mr. Belisle, he'd make a wonderful batting practice pitcher some day :)

In all seriousness, if Belisle's to be of any value to a club, it's out of the bullpen. I've thought that for the last 2-3 years and I still think that. He's not a quality start now, nor will he ever be. In the bullpen? At least give it a chance.

Stormy
05-26-2008, 08:10 PM
"My arm hurts"

-Mark Prior

"Mine too"

-Kerry Wood

Hysterical. :beerme: Pitching is such a precious commodity, I just can't fathom making the studs of this rotation (Harang and Volquez) pitch on short rest, immediately following them throwing a high pressure relief outing on even less rest. Throw in the fact that Arroyo has a demonstrated history of ineffectiveness following overuse, and it becomes assinine.

Dusty created this mess, but this is purely on Walt if he fails to call up someone for a spot start to take some strain off the building blocks for the present and future of this franchise.

bucksfan2
05-26-2008, 08:16 PM
I don't think there is a problem with the rotation at all. Arroyo likes to pitch on short rest. Harang is a work horse and if you read what he said about the game he mostly threw fastballs. I really don't think the HR will effect Volquez at all. It was an 18th inning HR in a game that Volquez wasn't prepared for at all. I am sure the game plan was pretty basic.

The sole problem with the rotation is that Belisle continues to remain the 5th starter. Why? He hasn't shown any great improvement. He hasn't shown the ability to dominate. He doesn't have a track record of success. He basically is a pitcher who has good stuff but is never able to put it together for an extended period of time. He really reminds me of a Todd Coffey type starter. You look at him and say that he has the stuff to be successful as a MLB pitcher but when he takes the mound he just doesn't get it done.

lollipopcurve
05-26-2008, 08:35 PM
Each pitcher has at least 4 days rest unless otherwise noted. So the net effect of last night's game was that three different pitchers went or are going on short rest, and Harng is doing it twice.

And it's May. Is this the Castellini Effect?

coachw513
05-26-2008, 08:37 PM
Bray likley represented the best chance to pitch the 11th inning and give up less than 2 runs. Starting with Fogg (and then going to Bray) meant that it was likely that a starter might be needed. Everyong knows that the last pitcher used in an extra inning game has to be the one that can go the longest. That's Fogg.

Bray and Fogg.

Not Fogg and Bray.

it was really that simple.

Bray is better, and will likely get you the win. But Fogg is the safety valve.

Fogg was more likely to blow the save, and then you wasted the safety valve.

it never made any sense.

Nothing else really matters...correct...

And even if Fogg had given the game away in the 11th or 12th, it would have kept me from watching 2 more hours of the game, an inherently good thing...

And regardless of whether or not Arroyo or Harang seem capable in May of handling a start on 3 days rest, it still is foolhardy over the course of 100 more games...just start Fogg once this week, take the a-kickin' that will probably occur and be thankful you've protected your rotation a bit...

I understand not being a big Fogg fan, but wasn't Sunday and isn't this weeks rotation problems exactly WHY you do have him around???...I just don't understand this team sometimes...it shouldn't be this hard all the time...

GAC
05-26-2008, 08:52 PM
Volquez is not scheduled to pitch till Friday. That's 5 days of rest. Why are some worried about him?

mbgrayson
05-26-2008, 09:28 PM
Volquez is not scheduled to pitch till Friday. That's 5 days of rest. Why are some worried about him?

Because he threw 39 pitches last night on one days rest, after throwing 92 pitches Friday night.