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View Full Version : Will Jay Bruce be called up before Tuesday's game?



Blitz Dorsey
05-26-2008, 10:30 AM
Will Jay Bruce be called up before Tuesday's game?

Degenerate39
05-26-2008, 10:32 AM
No, Patterson will get a hit Tuesday and Jay will stay down till September.

mth123
05-26-2008, 10:35 AM
Its difficult to predict because logic and sound decision making seem to have no influence on what this team actually does, but I say yes. Unfortunately, I think the motivation will be to create a circus to boost the gate, but if it gets him up and in the line-up I'm all for it. The team probably has no idea that its a good baseball decision.

Falls City Beer
05-26-2008, 10:37 AM
Its difficult to predict because logic and sound decision making seem to have no influence on what this team actually does, but I say yes. Unfortunately, I think the motivation will be to create a circus to boost the gate, but if it gets him up and in the line-up I'm all for it. The team probably has no idea that its a good baseball decision.

Jocketty knows it's a good baseball decision.

flyer85
05-26-2008, 10:38 AM
it was an obvious decision weeks ago. What makes it more compelling starting today?

mth123
05-26-2008, 10:41 AM
Jocketty knows it's a good baseball decision.

I like Jocketty too, but his lack of making this move earlier has me doubting him. Saying there is no place for him to play is just unbelievable. There are two OF spots where he'd be an immediate upgrade. The difficulty is determining which steaming pile to remove. The one in CF or the one in RF. Get him in the line-up and sort that out later.

Reds Fanatic
05-26-2008, 10:42 AM
I would have voted yes a few days ago but based on the interview with Hal during the rain delay a few nights ago it sounded like the team wanted to make a trade before bringing him up. Also it seems like the team does not want him to play center so if they are waiting on a trade I don't think we will see Bruce for awhile.

Falls City Beer
05-26-2008, 10:43 AM
it was an obvious decision weeks ago. What makes it more compelling starting today?

Super Two. No doubt that's why they're waiting.

Blitz Dorsey
05-26-2008, 10:46 AM
I fear even if Bruce does come up tomorrow (which I suspect) and Dusty is "forced" to start him, Dusty will bat him ninth and the pitcher eighth or something.

"Hey, it's just the lineup," Baker said to the Fake News. "Everyone knows the order of the lineup doesn't really matter. People talk about OPS but I don't even know what that means. Back when I was hitting behind Hank Aaron -- I was actually on deck when he cured Polio -- no one talked about no OPS. Plus, I see LaRussa and that guy with job security in Milwaukee batting the pitcher eighth all the time and it looks pretty cool."

flyer85
05-26-2008, 11:04 AM
Super Two. No doubt that's why they're waiting.if they are smart and follow the recent trend of signing youg guys long before arbitration then super two is not even an issue.

Cyclone792
05-26-2008, 11:07 AM
if they are smart and follow the recent trend of signing youg guys long before arbitration then super two is not even an issue.

Super Two is always an issue. Long term contracts are structured around what a player would get in the future. A long term contract for a Jay Bruce who would be eligible for Super Two would involve more money than a long term contract for a Jay Bruce who would not be eligible for Super Two.

flyer85
05-26-2008, 11:09 AM
Super Two is always an issue. Long term contracts are structured around what a player would get in the future. A long term contract for a Jay Bruce who would be eligible for Super Two would involve more money than a long term contract for a Jay Bruce who would not be eligible for Super Two.the problem is that super two is a moving target as it is a percentage of eligible players and you don't know how many players that will be ... so if super two is the reason(and Jocketty said it wasn't) then you wouldn't want to bring him up for a bit.

Cyclone792
05-26-2008, 11:13 AM
the problem is that super two is a moving target as it is a percentage of eligible players and until you reach the end of the season you don't know how many players that will be ... so if super two is the reason(and Jocketty said it wasn't) then you wouldn't want to bring him up for a bit.

The safe historical cutoff for Super Two is two years, 128 days. It's gone as high as 140 days, but it hasn't gone lower than 128 days in several years (if ever). Yes, it's a moving target, but it's a moving target that only goes so low.

The Reds should do what exactly what the Brewers did to Braun. They waited until the safe date to call him up last year, and then they gave him a contract extension with a Super Two clause that if he's eligible his long term contract is worth $6 million more. The best thing about that clause is it's just window dressing to satisfy Braun and his agent; the Brewers timed the promotion just about perfectly so they know they won't have to pay that extra $6 million.

flyer85
05-26-2008, 11:17 AM
the stuff that losing organizations are made of ... and the explanation doesn't work for the Longoria signing.

membengal
05-26-2008, 11:21 AM
The Reds are going out of their way to spite their fanbase this year. You almost have to applaud their lack of caring. There's brazen, and then there is Patterson and Jr. in the line-up batting first and third while Jay Bruce torches AAA. Now THAT is brazen. Well done, Reds. WELL done.

Cyclone792
05-26-2008, 11:24 AM
the stuff that losing organizations are made of ... and the explanation doesn't work for the Longoria signing.

Longoria was promoted in early April, not early May. I really don't see how he applies to this situation. Teams generally promote good prospects at the beginning of the season or when super two has cleared.

OnBaseMachine
05-26-2008, 11:39 AM
I'm hoping Bruce is called up before tomorrow's game but I'm not getting my hopes up. Jocketty hasn't did anything yet so why now?

mth123
05-26-2008, 11:45 AM
If not now, they may wait until June 20th when they play 9 games in a row in AL parks. Griffey can DH and by the time its done, a move to make a pemanent spot could be more likely to occur (Dunn's no trade becomes a limted trade, Free Agents like Patterson and Fogg can be dealt, other teams are more likely to be in trade mode, etc.)

KronoRed
05-26-2008, 11:59 AM
I wouldn't bet on it, Dusty has shown no signs of moving his fav Patterson out of the top spot much less the lineup entirely so where is Bruce going to play?

Blitz Dorsey
05-26-2008, 12:02 PM
I wouldn't bet on it, Dusty has shown no signs of moving his fav Patterson out of the top spot much less the lineup entirely so where is Bruce going to play?

Take the decision out of Dusty's hands. Jocketty needs to grow a pair, cut Patterson and bring up Bruce no questions asked.

KronoRed
05-26-2008, 12:08 PM
It wouldn't shock me if Dusty has big Bob's ear just as much as Walt does.

Spring~Fields
05-26-2008, 12:22 PM
I don't think that Bruce will be up that soon, but what do I know, I just learned this year that a centerfielder has to leadoff and a shorstop has to bat second, while the higher on base percentage players bat in the lower portion of the order and that everyone signed as in infielder is a shortstop.

AmarilloRed
05-26-2008, 12:25 PM
I don't think so. There was a report he would not be called up until June, and I haven't seen anything to contradict that.

Spring~Fields
05-26-2008, 12:26 PM
It wouldn't shock me if Dusty has big Bob's ear just as much as Walt does.

I think that you are correct because:

I saw something somewhere when he was hired that part of Baker's contract had in it that he has input or an advisory role on personnel. John Fay in October 07, but I can’t find the article.

PuffyPig
05-26-2008, 12:27 PM
The Reds should do what exactly what the Brewers did to Braun. They waited until the safe date to call him up last year, and then they gave him a contract extension with a Super Two clause that if he's eligible his long term contract is worth $6 million more. The best thing about that clause is it's just window dressing to satisfy Braun and his agent; the Brewers timed the promotion just about perfectly so they know they won't have to pay that extra $6 million.

So, for those that say that "super 2" doesn't matter, it's worth about $6M to an elite player.

Matt700wlw
05-26-2008, 12:30 PM
He should.

Of course, he should've been here the whole time.

mth123
05-26-2008, 12:34 PM
So, for those that say that "super 2" doesn't matter, it's worth about $6M to an elite player.

I am very aware of the economics of the situation, but the whole super 2 thing represents money a few years from now. A team that says it wants the losing to stop should be giving it a try IMO. If Bruce succeeds and has the impact many believe, that $6 Million won't mean much. If he doesn't he can always be sent back down and still avoid the super two designation.

Seems like they accepted mediocrity without even giving it a try to me and that sticks with many fans. When I'm being told that the team intends to win and then it does not do something that could help that is so readily available, it certainly makes me want to keep my money in my wallet where the Reds are concerned. I wonder how much that $6 Million is going to cost them.

flyer85
05-26-2008, 12:38 PM
So, for those that say that "super 2" doesn't matter, it's worth about $6M to an elite player.Evan Longoria says:wave:

Spring~Fields
05-26-2008, 12:50 PM
I am very aware of the economics of the situation, but the whole super 2 thing represents money a few years from now. A team that says it wants the losing to stop should be giving it a try IMO. If Bruce succeeds and has the impact many believe, that $6 Million won't mean much. If he doesn't he can always be sent back down and still avoid the super two designation.

Seems like they accepted mediocrity without even giving it a try to me and that sticks with many fans. When I'm being told that the team intends to win and then it does not do something that could help that is so readily available, it certainly makes me want to keep my money in my wallet where the Reds are concerned. I wonder how much that $6 Million is going to cost them.

Look at Patterson, Freel, Hairston, Hopper, Mercker, Bako, the team wasn't concerned about $6 million dollars, Freel and Patterson alone are over that amount. They thought or were convinced that they had the better product in those five or six guys to begin with. Now they are stuck trying to live it out, trying to justify their original decisions. Someone in the organization is still hoping that some of those players will turn it around.

Cyclone792
05-26-2008, 01:03 PM
I am very aware of the economics of the situation, but the whole super 2 thing represents money a few years from now. A team that says it wants the losing to stop should be giving it a try IMO. If Bruce succeeds and has the impact many believe, that $6 Million won't mean much. If he doesn't he can always be sent back down and still avoid the super two designation.

Seems like they accepted mediocrity without even giving it a try to me and that sticks with many fans. When I'm being told that the team intends to win and then it does not do something that could help that is so readily available, it certainly makes me want to keep my money in my wallet where the Reds are concerned. I wonder how much that $6 Million is going to cost them.

The economics are beyond vital, especially in future seasons. A quick way not to be able to afford to keep your current talent and/or not be able to afford to bring in new talent is to be wreckless with your future budget. Bruce's Super Two season would be 2011, and this is already what's on the books:

Aaron Harang: $12.75 million option ($2 million buyout)
Francisco Cordero: $12 million
Bronson Arroyo: $11 million option ($2 million buyout)
Brandon Phillips: $11 million

That's $46.75 million tied up in four players if all the options are picked up. And that's not including Dunn (if extended), Encarnacion, Volquez, and Votto. If Cueto is never demoted to AAA, he'll be making arbitration money that season too. That could easily be $70 million for nine players, perhaps even $80 million, if all those players remain in a Reds uniform and perform the way we hope. Add a Super Two Bruce in there and that's another $6+ million. That's more than what the entire team's payroll is this season.

Yes, it would have been nice to have Bruce up here two weeks ago. If the Reds would have brought him north after spring training and had him in the lineup since Opening Day ala Cueto, then that's one thing. But once the Reds made the decision to keep Bruce down in Louisville through April, then they effectively made the decision to keep him in Louisville until the Super Two date passed. Two weeks of Jay Bruce in May of 2008 isn't worth the $6+ million hammer in 2011.

Of course the Super Two point is moot now because the Super Two date came and went this weekend. Bruce needs to be promoted and in the lineup tomorrow night against Pittsburgh.

RedsManRick
05-26-2008, 01:27 PM
I voted no, not because I don't want him up here, but because I have so little faith in our organization to do what makes sense. Replacing Patterson with Bruce would be an embarrassment to Dusty. And as we've heard, we don't make decisions around here because they make sense, we do them out of respect.

Spring~Fields
05-26-2008, 01:39 PM
I voted no, not because I don't want him up here, but because I have so little faith in our organization to do what makes sense. Replacing Patterson with Bruce would be an embarrassment to Dusty. And as we've heard, we don't make decisions around here because they make sense, we do them out of respect.

That very well could be a factor with Dusty, Patterson and Griffey. Baker with his respect for Griffey, and Griffey being in somewhat of a contract year that will decide if Griffey receives $4 million and good-bye or a $16 million dollar season. Bruce the fair haired new kid on the block could embarrass each Baker, Patterson and Griffey, while costing Griffey big dollars, Patterson could go back to the unemployed free agent line, perhaps Baker respects that too. It is conceivable that Bruce could walk into a very unpleasant situation, while Griffey or Patterson are still on board.

If Bruce played well and showed performance that produced, Baker would have to answer a lot of questions and to defend the reason, if Bruce wasn't playing regularly, plus he will have to defend why Bruce wasn’t here sooner, why he wasn’t here to begin with in the face of old rumors and labels that Baker is veteran biased against younger players.

LoganBuck
05-26-2008, 02:28 PM
I vote no, because I think we see him Thursday. They need to run Bailey out there on Wednesday, because of yesterday's shenanigans. Bailey goes back to AAA after Wednesday's game, Bruce to Cincy on Thursday.

Edit: Nevermind I see the Rotation is set with Arroyo going Wednesday, Harang Thursday, Volquez Friday. Yesterday's game the gift that keeps on giving.

11larkin11
05-26-2008, 02:30 PM
I vote no, because I think we see him Thursday. They need to run Bailey out there on Wednesday, because of yesterday's shenanigans. Bailey goes back to AAA after Wednesday's game, Bruce to Cincy on Thursday.

The rotation has already been reset. No one is coming up.

Will M
05-26-2008, 02:30 PM
Take the decision out of Dusty's hands. Jocketty needs to grow a pair, cut Patterson and bring up Bruce no questions asked.

1. Bruce needs to be here

2. Jr needs to go DH somewhere

3. Patterson - isn't he on a minor league deal? can the Reds send him to AAA for a few weeks to work on his hitting? he has a great glove but if he hits .200 he is only useful as a defensive replacement and pinch runner

Ron Madden
05-26-2008, 02:46 PM
I voted no, not because I don't want him up here, but because I have so little faith in our organization to do what makes sense. Replacing Patterson with Bruce would be an embarrassment to Dusty. And as we've heard, we don't make decisions around here because they make sense, we do them out of respect.

:clap:

Well said, I agree 100%

Blitz Dorsey
05-26-2008, 03:52 PM
1. Bruce needs to be here

2. Jr needs to go DH somewhere

3. Patterson - isn't he on a minor league deal? can the Reds send him to AAA for a few weeks to work on his hitting? he has a great glove but if he hits .200 he is only useful as a defensive replacement and pinch runner

Yeah, you are right. "Cutting" Patterson should be revised to "send Patterson down" or "get Patterson the heck off the team so The Boss can play."

Because you know as soon as we cut Patterson, Freel and Bruce would collide and get hurt or something. Kind of like we finally cut Juan Castro, then Keppinger goes down and we have to bring up Janish. Actually that worked out pretty well. I am not a fan of batting Janish anywhere but seventh or eighth in the order, but I like him overall better than Castro no question. He's younger and seems to have some upside given his baseball IQ and his natural abilities. Janish was a 5th round pick by the Reds out of Rice U., which isn't extremely high, but is nothing to scoff at.

SMcGavin
05-26-2008, 04:48 PM
The economics are beyond vital, especially in future seasons. A quick way not to be able to afford to keep your current talent and/or not be able to afford to bring in new talent is to be wreckless with your future budget. Bruce's Super Two season would be 2011, and this is already what's on the books:

Aaron Harang: $12.75 million option ($2 million buyout)
Francisco Cordero: $12 million
Bronson Arroyo: $11 million option ($2 million buyout)
Brandon Phillips: $11 million

That's $46.75 million tied up in four players if all the options are picked up. And that's not including Dunn (if extended), Encarnacion, Volquez, and Votto. If Cueto is never demoted to AAA, he'll be making arbitration money that season too. That could easily be $70 million for nine players, perhaps even $80 million, if all those players remain in a Reds uniform and perform the way we hope. Add a Super Two Bruce in there and that's another $6+ million. That's more than what the entire team's payroll is this season.

Yes, it would have been nice to have Bruce up here two weeks ago. If the Reds would have brought him north after spring training and had him in the lineup since Opening Day ala Cueto, then that's one thing. But once the Reds made the decision to keep Bruce down in Louisville through April, then they effectively made the decision to keep him in Louisville until the Super Two date passed. Two weeks of Jay Bruce in May of 2008 isn't worth the $6+ million hammer in 2011.

Of course the Super Two point is moot now because the Super Two date came and went this weekend. Bruce needs to be promoted and in the lineup tomorrow night against Pittsburgh.

This is an excellent post. I also didn't know that Braun's contract had a Super Two clause in it. Really good stuff from the Milwaukee organization.

Now tomorrow night we will see if the Reds are smart and were waiting for the Super Two date to pass, or are clueless and actually want Jay Bruce to stay in AAA.

Caveat Emperor
05-26-2008, 04:51 PM
I voted no.

I will continue to vote no until Corey Patterson is DFA'd, because there's no way Bruce is an everyday player as long as Corey is on the time.

fearofpopvol1
05-26-2008, 04:58 PM
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I believe someone had said Bruce's # has already been decided for the Reds. Can you tell me what that # is? And is that # going to stick? I want to order a jersey, but am concerned about the # being switched.

OnBaseMachine
05-26-2008, 04:59 PM
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I believe someone had said Bruce's # has already been decided for the Reds. Can you tell me what that # is? And is that # going to stick? I want to order a jersey, but am concerned about the # being switched.

#32.

Ron Madden
05-26-2008, 05:00 PM
I think it's #32.

savafan
05-26-2008, 05:14 PM
I expect Bruce to be called up and starting in left in place of Adam Dunn. ;)

Matt700wlw
05-26-2008, 05:20 PM
Evidently, he will be here Tuesday!

Caveat Emperor
05-26-2008, 05:31 PM
Myself, and thirty-eight other RedsZoners probably feeling a tad stupid right now. ;)

savafan
05-26-2008, 05:57 PM
I just voted yes. :D

Blitz Dorsey
05-26-2008, 05:58 PM
Can a moderator please close the voting? I looked but it doesn't seem there is a way for me to do it.

The smart people voted "Yes" I see. Ha.

Blitz Dorsey
05-26-2008, 06:09 PM
More people are voting yes now. You people have no pride. Ha.

The final count of REAL people who voted yes is 19. It's already up to 22 and will get higher I'm sure. If a mod is reading this, please close the poll if you can or lock the thread.

Falls City Beer
05-26-2008, 06:54 PM
I'm hoping Bruce is called up before tomorrow's game but I'm not getting my hopes up. Jocketty hasn't did anything yet so why now?

Let me guess: it's because Jocketty was once associated with the Cardinals. :)

LOL.

Spring~Fields
05-26-2008, 07:30 PM
I don't think that Bruce will be up that soon, but what do I know, I just learned this year that a centerfielder has to leadoff and a shorstop has to bat second, while the higher on base percentage players bat in the lower portion of the order and that everyone signed as in infielder is a shortstop.

Wrong as usual, when I was younger I was right all the time, now when I am older I am wrong all the time, what's up with that. :all_cohol

OnBaseMachine
05-26-2008, 10:25 PM
Let me guess: it's because Jocketty was once associated with the Cardinals. :)

LOL.

Guess again.

Blitz Dorsey
05-27-2008, 02:44 AM
Everyone who voted yes receives 2008 Reds playoff tickets on me.