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View Full Version : HOW can Jocketty improve the team?



Will M
05-26-2008, 10:41 PM
I have been thinking about the Reds a lot. Not just the 2008 team but also going forward. Certain moves need to be made - ie calling up Bruce (done), extending Dunn, moving or not resigning guys like Javy/Majik/etc.
The Reds IMO will have six positions covered: 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, LF & RF(or CF).
We have two aces plus Arroyo & Cueto.
There are internal candidates for the other starter-Maloney/Bailey/Thompson.
We have a closer.
We have some decent 6th/7th inning relievers.

We need:
1. a catcher
2. an outfielder. preferably a speedy centerfielder who can help cover left-center.
3. a good 8th inning guy.

How can we get these?
1. the high minors don't look good to fill these slots for 2008/2009
2. the 2008-2009 free agent class is weak, especially at the above positions
3. the guys we want to trade ( Hat, Javy, Belisle, Majik, etc ) aren't going to get us Grady Sizemore or Russell Martin

So what can Jocketty do? I have two thoughts.
1. trade Encarnacion. Janish & Gonzalez can play SS with Kep moving to 3B. I believe 3B is one of the positions we are deep with talent in the lower minors.
EE could get us a catcher or CF.
2. find a team that wants to move a contract. or wants to move an arbitration eligible guy. the Reds will have a LOT of money to spend and not a lot of free agent talent to spend it on. so trading a couple of A ball players to a team that basically wants salary relief seems like a strategy to look into

What do people think? Realistically how can Kocketty improve the team?

11larkin11
05-26-2008, 10:48 PM
I am a big EE fan, but if Gonzo gets healthy or Janish sticks (IN THE 8 HOLE) and lives to his slick fielding billing, then I would trade him for a catcher, and if all you want is a speedy, great defensive CF, there is always younger Corey Patterson, Chris Dickerson.

Will M
05-26-2008, 10:51 PM
I am a big EE fan, but if Gonzo gets healthy or Janish sticks (IN THE 8 HOLE) and lives to his slick fielding billing, then I would trade him for a catcher, and if all you want is a speedy, great defensive CF, there is always younger Corey Patterson, Chris Dickerson.

IMO it doesn't seem that Dickerson will hit enough to be any more than a reserve.
He is not getting it done in AAA.

*BaseClogger*
05-26-2008, 10:53 PM
Without expecting any contributions from AGon: the difference between EE's offense and Janish's offense offset the possible contributions of the new catcher. Besides, I find it hard to believe you will find any catchers that can hit and play defense. I am a firm believer that you can win with an all glove/arm, no bat catcher. This team is only a CF, Dunn extension, some developement, and maybe one more bullpen arm away from contention IMO...

Will M
05-26-2008, 10:58 PM
Without expecting any contributions from AGon: the difference between EE's offense and Janish's offense offset the possible contributions of the new catcher. Besides, I find it hard to believe you will find any catchers that can hit and play defense. I am a firm believer that you can win with an all glove/arm, no bat catcher. This team is only a CF, Dunn extension, some developement, and maybe one more bullpen arm away from contention IMO...

so how do you get the CF and the bullpen arm? who do you trade? is there a free agent you would sign this offseason?

Caveat Emperor
05-26-2008, 10:58 PM
1. Never play Jerry Hairston at SS ever again.

2. Never play Javier Valentin at 1st base ever again.

3. Never let Josh Fogg or Mike Lincoln pitch for the team again.

Those three would be really easy.

Will M
05-26-2008, 11:03 PM
1. Never play Jerry Hairston at SS ever again.

2. Never play Javier Valentin at 1st base ever again.

3. Never let Josh Fogg or Mike Lincoln pitch for the team again.

Those three would be really easy.

IMO this won't get it done. The Reds have a TALENT problem in addition to the manager issue. IMO they don't have the talent to be a truly competitive team. The Reds of 2008/2009 aren't going to win 90 games with the current players no matter where they play. They need to add more talent to the 25 man roster but i just don't see where it will come from.

*BaseClogger*
05-26-2008, 11:03 PM
so how do you get the CF and the bullpen arm? who do you trade? is there a free agent you would sign this offseason?

I don't know about center field. Perhaps Coco Crisp, but I'm not sure if that is enough of an upgrade. If Jocketty can find a good corner outfielder then I would support putting Bruce in center field for a year or two. As for the relief pitchers, they are mysterious creatures that come out of nowhere. Go looking on the waiver wire, Rule V draft, trade, or from within. Definitely steer clear of FA's...

Falls City Beer
05-26-2008, 11:03 PM
This team is only a CF, Dunn extension, some developement, and maybe one more bullpen arm away from contention IMO...

And a universal collapse of the other 5 teams in the division....

Will M
05-26-2008, 11:09 PM
I don't know about center field. Perhaps Coco Crisp, but I'm not sure if that is enough of an upgrade. If Jocketty can find a good corner outfielder then I would support putting Bruce in center field for a year or two. As for the relief pitchers, they are mysterious creatures that come out of nowhere. Go looking on the waiver wire, Rule V draft, trade, or from within. Definitely steer clear of FA's...

1. i agree that if Jocketty could find a good right fielder that Bruce could play CF for a while

2. as for the relievers - are you saying that a guy like Scott Shields or Jonathan Broxton is just lying around somewhere? i know that middle relievers are a bit of a crapshoot. that is why i'd like to see the Reds get a real 8th inning guy. then you can try to make due with youngsters and cheapos for the 6th/7th innings.

Caveat Emperor
05-26-2008, 11:12 PM
IMO this won't get it done. The Reds have a TALENT problem in addition to the manager issue. IMO they don't have the talent to be a truly competitive team. The Reds of 2008/2009 aren't going to win 90 games with the current players no matter where they play. They need to add more talent to the 25 man roster but i just don't see where it will come from.

Of course this won't get it done -- all I care about is making things more tolerable for the remainder of the season. There's 100 more rounds of this year left before Jocketty can get to work on things, the least they can do is make it watchable for those of us who do give a crap.

You can always find talent if you know where to look -- even the, at times, bumbling Reds have managed to find Arroyo, Phillips, Keppinger, Hamilton, and Burton for nearly nothing in the past couple years. If you shake the right trees, you'll be amazed what falls out.

Jocketty knows how to deal. He's got a fairly deep (by all accounts) farm system to work with. I'm confident he won't let an offseason go by without making serious changes.

*BaseClogger*
05-26-2008, 11:24 PM
2. as for the relievers - are you saying that a guy like Scott Shields or Jonathan Broxton is just lying around somewhere? i know that middle relievers are a bit of a crapshoot. that is why i'd like to see the Reds get a real 8th inning guy. then you can try to make due with youngsters and cheapos for the 6th/7th innings.

By the same token, guys like Joakim Soria, Bobby Jenks, and Kevin Gregg were lying around...

Falls City Beer
05-26-2008, 11:26 PM
Cueto would be a very high-leverage arm in the pen.

Will M
05-26-2008, 11:26 PM
Of course this won't get it done -- all I care about is making things more tolerable for the remainder of the season. There's 100 more rounds of this year left before Jocketty can get to work on things, the least they can do is make it watchable for those of us who do give a crap.

You can always find talent if you know where to look -- even the, at times, bumbling Reds have managed to find Arroyo, Phillips, Keppinger, Hamilton, and Burton for nearly nothing in the past couple years. If you shake the right trees, you'll be amazed what falls out.

Jocketty knows how to deal. He's got a fairly deep (by all accounts) farm system to work with. I'm confident he won't let an offseason go by without making serious changes.

you and i differ then. if the Reds are just trying to win 81 games and not really make progress towards being a playoff team then i have no interest in watching. haven't we been doing this for the last 10-15 years? what is the point? i want a team that can be competitive for a playoff spot more years than not.

Falls City Beer
05-26-2008, 11:28 PM
you and i differ then. if the Reds are just trying to win 81 games and not really make progress towards being a playoff team then i have no interest in watching. haven't we been doing this for the last 10-15 years? what is the point? i want a team that can be competitive for a playoff spot more years than not.

I don't see where you and Caveat differ, ultimately. He's just making short-term suggestions and you, long-term. I don't think he's saying the Reds don't have work to do.

*BaseClogger*
05-26-2008, 11:32 PM
Cueto would be a very high-leverage arm in the pen.

As would Volquez. ;) It's pretty hard to develope young pitchers if you keep them in the bullpen. Cueto threw 180 innings last year, he can handle a full season in a major league rotation. Just let him grow...

The_jbh
05-26-2008, 11:33 PM
I really don't think we are that far away from contention... we need a lead off hitter badly... preferably in CF.

Thinking this season I throw Bruce in the lead off spot and see what happens

CF Bruce
SS Keppinger
LF Dunn
3B EE
1B Votto
2B Phillips
RF Griffey
C Bako

Rotation i think we have to wait... I don't think Harang Volquez Arroyo Cueto are going to change... That 5 spot is going to Bailey or Thompson by next year. They aren't ready now but they will get their shots. I think only experience is going to help the starting rotation. Ride Beslile till one of those two are ready...

Honestly I think Bailey to the pen could give us that 8th inning arm and an heir apparent to Cordero... i don't think hes every going to work hard enough to be a starter. His lack of concern over baseball might be an asset in the closer role though

Falls City Beer
05-26-2008, 11:38 PM
Cueto threw 180 innings last year, he can handle a full season in a major league rotation.

This sentence here is an object lesson in the logical fallacy "non sequitur."

RedlegJake
05-27-2008, 01:47 AM
I'm personally warm to the idea of Bailey in the pen. Seems to lose focus after a few innings so the pen might suit him and he has the stuff to be dominant there. The Reds, however are unlikely to turn their ballyhooed #1 pick and golden boy arm into a reliever. I would bet they'd trade him before that happened. Jocketty may change some attitudes, though, so maybe it's a possibility.

AmarilloRed
05-27-2008, 02:09 AM
Do what he has done so far-Promote good minor league players to the next level. I expect Jocketty will continue to do this, and we could see very good ballplayers move up multiple levels in a year with Jocketty as the GM.:thumbup:

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 02:19 AM
I'm personally warm to the idea of Bailey in the pen. Seems to lose focus after a few innings so the pen might suit him and he has the stuff to be dominant there. The Reds, however are unlikely to turn their ballyhooed #1 pick and golden boy arm into a reliever. I would bet they'd trade him before that happened. Jocketty may change some attitudes, though, so maybe it's a possibility.

I like that idea also but it never seems to go over very well here on Redszone. Jocketty and Baker I have read believe in getting some starters to start out in the bullpen. Bailey might get it together emotionally out of the bullpen once he was with the major league team and had some success with the mindset that he eventually will be worked into being a starter. I think that he could really bring it for an inning or two and that might be a big piece to the bullpen. Of course his loss of control or walks won’t get it if it was with any regularity. Baker and Jocketty will have a problem with his control as it is now in the minors though.

OBM really likes what he sees in Roenicke, those two if they did not have control issues could be a big boost to the pen.

Will M
05-27-2008, 11:46 AM
Do what he has done so far-Promote good minor league players to the next level. I expect Jocketty will continue to do this, and we could see very good ballplayers move up multiple levels in a year with Jocketty as the GM.:thumbup:

I could be wrong but i just don't see enough talent in the high minors to really push this team into playoff contention for 2008-2009-2010.
I think talent needs to be added to the organization.

Jpup
05-27-2008, 12:32 PM
He could do anything and that would be a step in the right direction. Why did they fire Krivsky again?

REDREAD
05-27-2008, 12:56 PM
3. Never let Josh Fogg or Mike Lincoln pitch for the team again.
.


But we are stuck here, due to lack of depth.. Who would you replace Fogg/Lincoln with?

Jpup
05-27-2008, 01:04 PM
But we are stuck here, due to lack of depth.. Who would you replace Fogg/Lincoln with?

Bring Homer up and then send Belisle to the pen. Bring up Roenicke to replace Lincoln. I would also rather had Lehr up than Josh Fogg.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 01:21 PM
Realizing that this team isn't a player or two away is a start.

Will M
05-27-2008, 01:42 PM
Realizing that this team isn't a player or two away is a start.

lets look at our 25 man roster:
1. we have 3 catchers who are basically backup material. one on the roster is fine but not all three
2. Hat can only play 1B and bats lefty so he doesn't play
3. Fogg and Belisle are terrible

just off the top of my head that is five roster spots out of 25 that aren't helping the team at all! this doesn't even count guys like Jr, Patterson or Lincoln. The Reds have a lot of problems.

dfs
05-27-2008, 05:33 PM
lets look at our 25 man roster:
1. we have 3 catchers who are basically backup material. one on the roster is fine but not all three
2. Hat can only play 1B and bats lefty so he doesn't play
3. Fogg and Belisle are terrible

just off the top of my head that is five roster spots out of 25 that aren't helping the team at all! this doesn't even count guys like Jr, Patterson or Lincoln. The Reds have a lot of problems.

And it gets worse when you look at the 40 man roster. How many guys are on the 40 man roster but aren't going to sniff playing time. I'm not talking about prospects that need to be protected.

Todd Coffey. Gary Majewski, Ryan Hanigan, Drew Anderson, Chris Dickerson. Organizationally, all those guys are toast. The only one who stands a reasonable chance of ever contributing as a major leaguer is Todd Coffey. Everybody who wants Todd Coffey in the major league bullpen say "Aye".......crickets chirp. I don't mean to slight Anderson, Hanigan or Dickerson, but they're not going to get playing time here.

Sure...If everything breaks this teams way they might have a competitive season in a divisional down year. I put this organization at 10 players away from being really good.

WVRedsFan
05-27-2008, 05:56 PM
lets look at our 25 man roster:
1. we have 3 catchers who are basically backup material. one on the roster is fine but not all three
2. Hat can only play 1B and bats lefty so he doesn't play
3. Fogg and Belisle are terrible

just off the top of my head that is five roster spots out of 25 that aren't helping the team at all! this doesn't even count guys like Jr, Patterson or Lincoln. The Reds have a lot of problems.Good list.

I look for Valentin and Ross to be gone soon at catcher. Bako has at least caught well and has shown he can hit if he continues. Hat is gone, but so should Freel and Hopper (for those Freel Freaks and Hopper Hurrahs out there--Freel would be a utility player on most teams and Hopper would be in AAA. If you have to keep one, it would be Freel).

Lincoln was a mistake. So was Fogg. Belisle is never going to be anything other than what he is. Weathers is over the hill. I don't expect to see Ross, Valentin, Freel, Hopper, Patterson, Fogg, Belisle, Lincoln, Weathers, Mercker, Coffey, and Gonzalez on this team in 2009. Some will go sooner along with Dunn and Griffey unfortunately. but we must move on.

Will M
05-27-2008, 06:17 PM
Good list.

I look for Valentin and Ross to be gone soon at catcher. Bako has at least caught well and has shown he can hit if he continues. Hat is gone, but so should Freel and Hopper (for those Freel Freaks and Hopper Hurrahs out there--Freel would be a utility player on most teams and Hopper would be in AAA. If you have to keep one, it would be Freel).

Lincoln was a mistake. So was Fogg. Belisle is never going to be anything other than what he is. Weathers is over the hill. I don't expect to see Ross, Valentin, Freel, Hopper, Patterson, Fogg, Belisle, Lincoln, Weathers, Mercker, Coffey, and Gonzalez on this team in 2009. Some will go sooner along with Dunn and Griffey unfortunately. but we must move on.

We have a lot of junk on the team don't we! Jocketty has his work cut out for him. Hopefully he can find some cheapos that perform better than some of the junk we have had recently. I like the signings of guys like Bako and Hairston - if they don't work out no big deal. Jolbert Cabrera is in AAA but he didn't cost much nor take up a roster spot.
Krivsky's problem was paying $2-3M a pop to guys like Stanton, Cormier, Javy, Ross,etc. Save this cash and get a really good player.

So all Walt has to do is replace about 7-8 crappy bench guys/5th starter/long relief and add 2-3 quality players ( CF, C, reliever ).
He better get started soon!

flyer85
05-27-2008, 06:20 PM
We have a lot of junk on the team don't we! Amen brother. :pray:

WVRedsFan
05-27-2008, 06:56 PM
Amen brother. :pray:

I'll "Amen" that "Amen."

While everyone was lammenting the demise of WK, it was totally forgotten what a mess he had made of this roster through his own hand. I know many players were up for arbitration, but you do not reward fodder with money and contracts that makies them immovable.

Can you imagine what other MLB team, other than the Pirates, would even have Ross, Velentin, Hopper, Lincoln, Mercker, Fogg, and Belisle on their roster? Ross has never been any good (outside of the 2006 spurt), Mercker was out of baseball, Fogg went to free agency and only the Reds would take him (realistically), Lincoln was multi-injured, and Valentin cannot catach play first or hit except once in awhile. Good stuff. Hopper can bunt, but what else? It's a mess. We now find out main rival for last place in the division is the same Pirates who probably would give a job to any of that bunch.

GAC
05-27-2008, 10:17 PM
Not resigning Dunn will only make Jocketty's job even harder and more complicated.

Rounding Third
05-27-2008, 10:21 PM
I'll "Amen" that "Amen."

While everyone was lammenting the demise of WK, it was totally forgotten what a mess he had made of this roster through his own hand. I know many players were up for arbitration, but you do not reward fodder with money and contracts that makies them immovable.

Can you imagine what other MLB team, other than the Pirates, would even have Ross, Velentin, Hopper, Lincoln, Mercker, Fogg, and Belisle on their roster? Ross has never been any good (outside of the 2006 spurt), Mercker was out of baseball, Fogg went to free agency and only the Reds would take him (realistically), Lincoln was multi-injured, and Valentin cannot catach play first or hit except once in awhile. Good stuff. Hopper can bunt, but what else? It's a mess. We now find out main rival for last place in the division is the same Pirates who probably would give a job to any of that bunch.

Don't forget paying Corey Patterson $3MM when nobody wanted him. :thumbup:

Will M
05-27-2008, 10:23 PM
Not resigning Dunn will only make Jocketty's job even harder and more complicated.

agree. i have never been a big Dunn fan but the Reds need his bat and can afford bad defense from one position

GAC
05-27-2008, 10:29 PM
I'll "Amen" that "Amen."

While everyone was lammenting the demise of WK, it was totally forgotten what a mess he had made of this roster through his own hand. I know many players were up for arbitration, but you do not reward fodder with money and contracts that makies them immovable.

Can you imagine what other MLB team, other than the Pirates, would even have Ross, Velentin, Hopper, Lincoln, Mercker, Fogg, and Belisle on their roster? Ross has never been any good (outside of the 2006 spurt), Mercker was out of baseball, Fogg went to free agency and only the Reds would take him (realistically), Lincoln was multi-injured, and Valentin cannot catach play first or hit except once in awhile. Good stuff. Hopper can bunt, but what else? It's a mess. We now find out main rival for last place in the division is the same Pirates who probably would give a job to any of that bunch.

Every ML team, and yes even good ones, has these types of guys on their roster. Always has, always will.

What do you mean no one would take Fogg? Looking at the market and what he did last year, he would have be grabbed by someone very easily. I'd rather take my chances on a low risk Fogg, who was offered a minor league deal, then pay/retain a Lohse.

When it comes to bullpens - teams are grabbing at anything and throwing it up against the wall to see if it will work. Look at the Card's current bullpen. Ron Villone and Ryan Franklin? That's the problem. No consistency. They "shine" one year, suck the next, get DFA'd, and all of a sudden shine again.

This is not just a problem peculiar to the Cincinnati Reds.

WVPacman
05-28-2008, 12:26 AM
I missed Jocketty talking on tv during the game so can anybody tell me what he said he was planning on doing exspecially with Dunn. We have to resign him!!!!!!!!

corkedbat
05-28-2008, 12:58 AM
1. Re-sign Dunn
2. A CF/RF to pair with Dunn & Bruce in the OF and replace Junior before next year
3 & 4. A solid primary right & left-handed OF/PH. Hopefully the righty can paly some 1B also
5. A young all-around RH C to to pair with Bako
6. At least one strong 7th/8th inning veteran setup guy

WVRedsFan
05-28-2008, 01:23 AM
Every ML team, and yes even good ones, has these types of guys on their roster. Always has, always will.

What do you mean no one would take Fogg? Looking at the market and what he did last year, he would have be grabbed by someone very easily. I'd rather take my chances on a low risk Fogg, who was offered a minor league deal, then pay/retain a Lohse.

OK, GAC.

Why did Fogg sign with us for millions below what he wanted. Were there other suitors? I didn't hear about any. And with what he are paying him, I can't imagine some other team not offering him at least that. And yet they didn't. No one wanted him and I can understand why. Krivsky panicked, which was typical.


When it comes to bullpens - teams are grabbing at anything and throwing it up against the wall to see if it will work. Look at the Card's current bullpen. Ron Villone and Ryan Franklin? That's the problem. No consistency. They "shine" one year, suck the next, get DFA'd, and all of a sudden shine again.

This is not just a problem peculiar to the Cincinnati Reds.

But, the last stats I saw on their bullpen was an ERA of 3.78 this year. We could only wish for that. Franklin's ERA is 1.50. Villone is in at 4.05. Those two have pitched a total of 44 innings and given up only 33 hits. The Reds could only wish for that. The Reds bullpen is running a 5+ ERA and has allowed something like 35 more hits than innings pitched (which I look at closely). If, and it's a big if, other teams are throwing it at the wall, they're throwing it so much better than us, it's not funny. Truth is, we have fodder and I'm sure Jocketty will take care of that.

SteelSD
05-28-2008, 01:50 AM
How can Jocketty help the Reds? Well, first, he can go out and find actual bullpen contributors. At some point don't the need to realize that there's exactly one pen member who's likely capable of producing an ERA under 4.00 over the course of a full season. The 'pen is littered with guys who are HR-prone and/or BB-prone and/or...well, I think we get the picture. The pitching is not as advertised.

Jocketty needs to start getting involved with the lineups. Like now. He needs to mandate that certain players can no longer hit in certain slots. He needs to sit Baker down and tell him that a goodly number of his machinizations don't actually work. He needs to look for opportunities to shed current dead weight while re-investing those dollars by what he's always done best- grabbing high-level FA talent from teams who are looking to discard such players. And he needs to sign Dunn yesterday.

I'm not a huge Jocketty fan, but he has a history of being able to make late-season moves to position his clubs to the next year. The challenge I see right now is that Baker isn't a good fit for Jocketty and that could surely slow things down. Regardless of what's been said about Jocketty's unwillingness to work with a more cerebral group, he's never seemed to be a guy who lacks the kind of innovative logic we'd like and expect from a GM. Considering the current team configuration he was left with, I don't see him as a guy who'll be looking to move strong this season unless the Reds can get back in the race despite themselves. But as we near the end of the season, I'd also expect Jocketty to be looking for value replacements he thinks he can trade for on the cheap and then re-sign for a decent price.

OldXOhio
05-28-2008, 12:19 PM
Jocketty needs to start getting involved with the lineups. Like now. He needs to mandate that certain players can no longer hit in certain slots. He needs to sit Baker down and tell him that a goodly number of his machinizations don't actually work.

Does Jock have a track record of having done this previously? He certainly had the opportunity with some of Larussa's juggling.



I'm not a huge Jocketty fan

Why's that?

GAC
05-28-2008, 10:37 PM
OK, GAC.

Why did Fogg sign with us for millions below what he wanted. Were there other suitors? I didn't hear about any. And with what he are paying him, I can't imagine some other team not offering him at least that. And yet they didn't. No one wanted him and I can understand why. Krivsky panicked, which was typical.

How is signing Fogg to a minor league deal panicking? Get off the Krivksy bashing and try to show some sort of objectivity WV. :lol:

It wasn't like the off-season pitching market was breaming with opportunities. Where were those pitchers Krivsky missed out on? He went into spring training with question marks in the #4 and #5 spots. He traded away Lohse for a pitching prospect (Maloney), and what was Lohse, whose agent is Boras, asking for in the off-season? And Kyle has really prospered hasn't he? And the fact that he's now in the Card's rotation shows just lean the market is, and how teams are scrambling for anything doesn't it.

So we're going into ST with two rookies vying for the rotation (Volquez, Cueto). Bailey is still a question mark, and obviously needs more maturation. They still had their fingers crossed with Belisle. You try to make it sound like Fogg was a key acquisition of Krivsky's - a crown jewel. He went into the market and signed some low-risk arms in Affeldt and Fogg simply as contingencies because you're not sure how these youngsters are going to perform, there is a maturation and development aspect to it, and you don't know how they will handle the pressure. They're backups. If it doesn't work out then you can cut ties with them very easily. Low risk.

And good friend Affeldt had alot to do with Fogg signing with Cincy.

But other then a Haren - where were all these quality arms that Krivsky missed out on? I thought he did a heck of a job turning a Rule 5 draftee into a possible ace in Volquez. Does he get any credit for that?

Looking at what we had, as far as pitching, what would you have done? How would you have addressed those "holes" going into this new season?



But, the last stats I saw on their bullpen was an ERA of 3.78 this year. We could only wish for that. Franklin's ERA is 1.50. Villone is in at 4.05. Those two have pitched a total of 44 innings and given up only 33 hits. The Reds could only wish for that.

Which proved a point I mentioned earlier..... inconsistency. You got every ML team out there grabbing up other team's fodder (DFAs) and throwing it against the wall. One year they shine... the next year - DFA'd. The turnover is amazing. The fact that a Ron Villone is still pitching is evidence of that.


Truth is, we have fodder and I'm sure Jocketty will take care of that.

Yes we do. And we'll see what Walt does with it. I'm behind him. I'm not saying there aren't certain players that need to be gone (cleaned out) on this team. There certainly is.

But as far as I'm concerned.... Jocketty inherited a team with far less troubles and in better shape then what Krivsky inherited, regardless of the current W-L record. He has some exciting and promising young players on this team (some acquired by Krivsky), and some others in the farm system. Jocketty gets to build on that. Krivsky may have accumulated some "fodder"; but he didn't saddle this team under bad long term contracts that he had to wait out. Jocketty is in a unique position in which he can have a lot of payroll flexibility and roster openings at season's end.

What he does with it we'll see. Especially in the area of pitching. I don't see where the market and opportunities are improving. Clearing out the fodder will be easy. Addressing (improving) the pitching even more will be his biggest challenge.

corkedbat
05-28-2008, 11:43 PM
Addressing (improving) the pitching even more will be his biggest challenge.

I actually don't see pitching as being as big a problem as some. I think that moving some of the deadwood will help, but with a couple of additions from the farm, I think they already have the makings of a decent 11-man staff.

Harang
Volquez
Arroyo
Cueto
Thompson/Maloney/Bailey
Belisle
Cordero
Bray
Affeldt
Burton
Roenicke/Watson/Pelland

I think the top 4 in the rotation are fine. Harang and Volquez are strong, Arroyo has come around and you'd have problems replacing him for the same money in this market. Cueto has seen some rough patches, but his stuff i dynamite and I like the way he battles. I think he will just keep getting better with experience.

I'm fine with a competition between Bailey, Thompson and Maloney for the 5th spot. I'm not wild about Belisle in the rotation, but thing he could be fine in a long role out of the pen - if not him - one of the runer's up in the battle for the 5th spot could work.

Cordero means the closer spot is not a worry and if they re-sign Affeldt I think he gives them a solid trio of middlemen with Burton and Bray. I think Roenicke, Watson or Pelland could make things interesting or fill in because of injury by the end of the year.

Actually, I may be crazy, but other than maybe finding a solid veteran 8th inning guy to replace Stormy, I'm actually pretty pleased with the future of the staff. If they can find hands-down upgrade anytime between now and ST, then by all means do it (it is pitching after all), but I'm really kind of excited about the potential for this staff.

I think the big thing is to start removing some of the chaff (Weathers, Fogg, Merker, Coffey, Majewski, etc.) form the equation - maybe fortify the bench. In, fact, if Maloney, Thompson and Wood continue to impress, I would be willing to commit heresay and include Bailey in a package to land a solid young OF to team with Dunn (he must be re-upped) and Bruce. Yes! I said it! Trade pitching for hitting!

Scrap Irony
05-29-2008, 12:32 AM
For next season:

1. Sign Dunn to a LTC.
Cincinnati should have the scratch to keep its best player. Baker should also put the Big Donkey third or fourth in the lineup and keep him there. But that's another story and a different thread.
2. Sign a big FA OF.
Make a serious splash with either Pat the Bat or Chipper Jones. Bat the FA fifth behind Votto, Bruce, and Dunn. (Or in the middle of them.) Watch the runs pile up. Where's the money coming from, you ask? A cheap starting rotation (only Harang and Arroyo make any money) and a cheaper pen (only Cordero with more than enough green).
3. Stick with the young 'uns.
Bring Roenicke up in September with an eye toward being the 8th inning guy next season. Put Maloney in the rotation as fifth starter and Thompson, Belisle, and Bailey in the pen as middle relievers. Keep Bray, Cordero, and Burton. That's a seven man pen and a 12-man pitching staff. If you want, keep Thompson or Bailey in AAA as insurance against injury or poor performance. (Shrug.)

SteelSD
05-29-2008, 12:52 AM
Does Jock have a track record of having done this previously? He certainly had the opportunity with some of Larussa's juggling.

Dusty Baker isn't Tony Larussa.


Why's that?

Next time, use the whole quote and I'll answer.

corkedbat
05-29-2008, 01:20 AM
For next season:


2. Sign a big FA OF.
Make a serious splash with either Pat the Bat or Chipper Jones. Bat the FA fifth behind Votto, Bruce, and Dunn. (Or in the middle of them.) Watch the runs pile up. Where's the money coming from, you ask? A cheap starting rotation (only Harang and Arroyo make any money) and a cheaper pen (only Cordero with more than enough green).

I don't know if an OF of Dunn/Bruce/Jones of Burrell is what I want to see defensively. Maybe I make a run a on of them if AD isn't re-upped.

I think the major need offensively is a solid bat and defender to replace Griffey. With Bruce, it could be a RF or CF (I'd love to tempt the Dodgers into dealing Kemp).

If I don't see EdE developing more consistency, I have to think about possibly bundling him with Bailey and seeing what I could land. I could live with Keppinger/Gonzalez/Hairston/Janisch at SS & 3B until Frazier can be placed at 3B if the bat in return is big (and consistent) enough.

I don't have anything against Edwin (or Homer for that matter), but I really think that this team needs too add one more big bat in the OF while upgrading defensively over what you're getting from Junior right now.

And while were discussing improvements, I'd really like to pry one from among Salty, Ramirez, Teagarden (personal favorite) or Laird (not so much) from the Rangers to team with Bako behind the plate.

WVRedsFan
05-29-2008, 02:11 AM
How is signing Fogg to a minor league deal panicking? Get off the Krivksy bashing and try to show some sort of objectivity WV. :lol:

Trouble is, he got to the big club, as everyone knew he would. The fact that he signed either at the beginning of spring training or during it speaks volumes. No one wanted him.


It wasn't like the off-season pitching market was breaming with opportunities. Where were those pitchers Krivsky missed out on? He went into spring training with question marks in the #4 and #5 spots. He traded away Lohse for a pitching prospect (Maloney), and what was Lohse, whose agent is Boras, asking for in the off-season? And Kyle has really prospered hasn't he? And the fact that he's now in the Card's rotation shows just lean the market is, and how teams are scrambling for anything doesn't it.

So why grab anyone? Given Fogg's track record, the best move might have been no move. Notice how much he's helping the team now.


So we're going into ST with two rookies vying for the rotation (Volquez, Cueto). Bailey is still a question mark, and obviously needs more maturation. They still had their fingers crossed with Belisle. You try to make it sound like Fogg was a key acquisition of Krivsky's - a crown jewel. He went into the market and signed some low-risk arms in Affeldt and Fogg simply as contingencies because you're not sure how these youngsters are going to perform, there is a maturation and development aspect to it, and you don't know how they will handle the pressure. They're backups. If it doesn't work out then you can cut ties with them very easily. Low risk.

I don't see it that way, but it was so obvious what was going to happen with Fogg (especially at GABP) that no one with this organization should have even considered him.


Looking at what we had, as far as pitching, what would you have done? How would you have addressed those "holes" going into this new season?

I'd rather have had the kids come up. Surely, things wouldn't have been any worse--and you save a million dollars. Just like signing Patterson was a mistake--three times the mistake.


But as far as I'm concerned.... Jocketty inherited a team with far less troubles and in better shape then what Krivsky inherited, regardless of the current W-L record. He has some exciting and promising young players on this team (some acquired by Krivsky), and some others in the farm system. Jocketty gets to build on that. Krivsky may have accumulated some "fodder"; but he didn't saddle this team under bad long term contracts that he had to wait out. Jocketty is in a unique position in which he can have a lot of payroll flexibility and roster openings at season's end.

What he does with it we'll see. Especially in the area of pitching. I don't see where the market and opportunities are improving. Clearing out the fodder will be easy. Addressing (improving) the pitching even more will be his biggest challenge.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, GAC. I have a lot of respect for your opinions, but I cannot in any way see how this team is much better than the mess he inherited in 2006. Yes, lots of talent can be found in the minors and some of them are up with the big team now, but the roster he went with--you can name all the players who were simply horrible here--and the roster formulation and wonder what the heck he was thinking.

Jocketty is making his moves and I like them. I look for better things and a more rational approach to making the big club better. That's all that matters to me.

OnBaseMachine
05-29-2008, 02:44 AM
We're just going to have to agree to disagree, GAC. I have a lot of respect for your opinions, but I cannot in any way see how this team is much better than the mess he inherited in 2006. Yes, lots of talent can be found in the minors and some of them are up with the big team now, but the roster he went with--you can name all the players who were simply horrible here--and the roster formulation and wonder what the heck he was thinking.


I respect the heck out of your opinion WV, after all, you are a fellow WV Reds fan, however, I strongly disagree with your opinion that this current team is no better than the team Krivsky inherited in 2006. You honestly don't think the current rotation of Aaron Harang, Edinson Volquez, Johnny Cueto, Bronson Arroyo, and Matt Belisle or whoever else they stick in the No. 5 spot is no better than in 2005? That rotation included Harang and then guys like Eric Milton, Paul Wilson, Brandon Claussen, Ramon Ortiz and slop like that. Danny Graves was our closer. Francisco Cordero is on another level than Graves. The bullpen included the likes of Jason Standridge, Ricky Stone, Ben Weber, and Brian Shackelford. Yeah the bullpen still isn't great but Jared Burton, Bill Bray, and Jeremy Affeldt are a step ahead of those guys.

The offense is in better shape for the future than back then IMO. Adam Dunn is still around and improving. Edwin is young and has potential and better than Joe Randa. Felipe Lopez/Wily Mo/Kearns haven't lived up to expectations since they were traded. They have now been replaced with Jay Bruce and Jeff Keppinger, which is a big improvement IMO. Joey Votto is an upgrade over Sean Casey. Brandon Phillips is better than Rich Aurilia. The catching situation with LaRue was a little better back then but he was dealt at the right time. I just don't see how anyone can think the organization is in no better shape now than it was two or three years ago.

kaldaniels
05-29-2008, 02:49 AM
I respect the heck out of your opinion WV, after all, you are a fellow WV Reds fan, however, I strongly disagree with your opinion that this current team is no better than the team Krivsky inherited in 2006. You honestly don't think the current rotation of Aaron Harang, Edinson Volquez, Johnny Cueto, Bronson Arroyo, and Matt Belisle or whoever else they stick in the No. 5 spot is no better than in 2005? That rotation included Harang and then guys like Eric Milton, Paul Wilson, Brandon Claussen, Ramon Ortiz and slop like that. Danny Graves was our closer. Francisco Cordero is on another level than Graves. The bullpen included the likes of Jason Standridge, Ricky Stone, Ben Weber, and Brian Shackelford. Yeah the bullpen still isn't great but Jared Burton, Bill Bray, and Jeremy Affeldt are a step ahead of those guys.

The offense is in better shape for the future than back then IMO. Adam Dunn is still around and improving. Edwin is young and has potential and better than Joe Randa. Felipe Lopez/Wily Mo/Kearns haven't lived up to expectations since they were traded. They have now been replaced with Jay Bruce and Jeff Keppinger, which is a big improvement IMO. Joey Votto is an upgrade over Sean Casey. Brandon Phillips is better than Rich Aurilia. The catching situation with LaRue was a little better back then but he was dealt at the right time. I just don't see how anyone can think the organization is in no better shape now than it was two or three years ago.

The horrors of the flashbacks you just gave me. Where do I sign up for electroshock therapy? :D

Will M
05-29-2008, 03:38 AM
I don't know if an OF of Dunn/Bruce/Jones of Burrell is what I want to see defensively. Maybe I make a run a on of them if AD isn't re-upped.

I think the major need offensively is a solid bat and defender to replace Griffey. With Bruce, it could be a RF or CF (I'd love to tempt the Dodgers into dealing Kemp).

If I don't see EdE developing more consistency, I have to think about possibly bundling him with Bailey and seeing what I could land. I could live with Keppinger/Gonzalez/Hairston/Janisch at SS & 3B until Frazier can be placed at 3B if the bat in return is big (and consistent) enough.

I don't have anything against Edwin (or Homer for that matter), but I really think that this team needs too add one more big bat in the OF while upgrading defensively over what you're getting from Junior right now.

And while were discussing improvements, I'd really like to pry one from among Salty, Ramirez, Teagarden (personal favorite) or Laird (not so much) from the Rangers to team with Bako behind the plate.

the Reds need a RF/CF to go with Dunn ( hopefully ) and Bruce.
Last time i looked there wasn't a good one on the 2008-2009 market.

this is one of the points of the thread. it is easy to say 'get a catcher' or sign a free agent. but i think that despite the talent we do have and the money coming off the books Walt has his work cut out for him to address the Reds needs.

i do like to concept of EE + Homer/Maloney + ? IF it can truly get us a fairly young impact RF/CF. i think Walt needs to whip us a creative trade.

GAC
05-29-2008, 09:45 PM
So why grab anyone? Given Fogg's track record, the best move might have been no move. Notice how much he's helping the team now.

Because you have to have something. What if kids like Volquez and Cueto struggled badly? What, if anything, do you have to fall back on? Even if it's a Fogg or Affeldt.

Fogg was 10-9 with 4.94 ERA last year with the Rockies. We're paying him $400,000 in '08. Like I said - we needed an arm (body) with the loss of Lohse, one youngster in question (Bailey), and two being thrust into the rotation (Volquez, Cueto). Guys like Affeldt and Fogg were low risk. When utilized properly, out of the bullpen, I see no problems.

I don't like Fogg, but I understand the "why" as to why guys like him and Affeldt are here.... necessity, as well as uncertainty in this rotation with the development of the youngsters, question marks like Belisle, and a volatile market that isn't offering up much for an answer.


I'd rather have had the kids come up. Surely, things wouldn't have been any worse--and you save a million dollars.

Again - Fogg is only making $400,000. And we already have kids up here in Volquez and Cueto. We're suppose to start rushing more kids up here from AA


We're just going to have to agree to disagree, GAC. I have a lot of respect for your opinions, but I cannot in any way see how this team is much better than the mess he inherited in 2006.

Because maybe we differ on approach? I'm not a "win now" kind of guy when it comes to what it is going to take to make this team competitive for years... not immediate. They calls for the acquisition and development of various young players. The primary area that was "killing" this team was pitching... not necessarily the "fodder". And since the market is very scarce, you had better develop it. That takes patience. You've got kids like Bailey, Volquez, Cueto, Maloney, Thompson. And each kid is at a different stage in their development. Take a good look (comparison) between Volquez and Cueto. Volquez was already near ML ready, and had some exposure at the major league level. Cueto had not. Was primary AA.

And the same can be said of Maloney and Thompson.

My approach going into this season has still been the same. I was optimistic; but saw the "holes".

I'd rather blow off the '08 season, work with the kids at this level that we know may be ready (Volquez, Cueto, Votto, Bruce), and not risj screwing up (rushing) these other young kids just because we want to "win now".

IMHO, that is far more damaging.


Yes, lots of talent can be found in the minors and some of them are up with the big team now, but the roster he went with--you can name all the players who were simply horrible here--and the roster formulation and wonder what the heck he was thinking.

This team had a horrendous start in April and through the first half of May. Primarily why? Because of guys who we have historically relied on to produce offensively (Dunn, Jr, Phillips) getting off to sub-par starts. You also tough it out (show patience) with kids like Votto and EE wsho started rather slow.

This team is not as good as some fan's optimism projected.... and not as bad as we've seen.


Jocketty is making his moves and I like them.

I like Jocketty, and fully stand behind him. But what moves? What moves has he made, that probably weren't going to be made at some point of the season regardless of who was the GM?... whether it was bringing up Bruce or shuffling some young players around in the minors getting them possibly ready for the next level?

Dumping Patterson? Solid move. What took him so long? But any GM would have ended up doing that seeing how downright miserable the kid was performing. And remember.... the manager who was stubbornly insistent on starting him/leading him off is still here. ;)

A week ago, when this team was losing, everyone was being reminded that this was "Wayne's team" and that his "finger prints" are all over it. Now, if they start winning, and with basically the same roster (sans Bruce) it's now Walt's influence that has turned it around. I laugh at that notion.

Jocketty's test is yet to come. But I am fully behind him. I just wonder if some of those who showed very little patience with Wayne will do the same with Jocketty. Especially come trading deadline time and there after when moves can be made? We'll see.

What Walt does with the players currently in the system is fine. But more importantly, it's what he brings in (adds to) what is already here (complements it).

edabbs44
05-29-2008, 09:50 PM
agree. i have never been a big Dunn fan but the Reds need his bat and can afford bad defense from one position

This Reds team might need his bat...but if Jocketty is looking towards 2010 or 2011, he has a few years to replace him.

GAC
05-29-2008, 10:04 PM
This Reds team might need his bat...but if Jocketty is looking towards 2010 or 2011, he has a few years to replace him.

Did he, in his mind, just call up his replacement? ;)

Does Walt think that 13-15 mil can be better spent to address other pressing concerns/needs, and that the maturation of kids like Votto and Bruce can replace Dunn's offense?

Yes, he'd like to retain Dunn, but........ (the bigger picture)

edabbs44
05-29-2008, 10:09 PM
Did he, in his mind, just call up his replacement? ;)

Does Walt think that 13-15 mil can be better spent to address other pressing concerns/needs, and that the maturation of kids like Votto and Bruce can replace Dunn's offense?

Yes, he'd like to retain Dunn, but........ (the bigger picture)

I think it is logical for him to say "I am going to shoot for 2010-2011. I am not going to burn the future to try and win now. I might be able to turn Dunn into 2-3 young players who will be ready to contribute then. At least one of whom might be his replacement. I would also be able to take some of those $$ savings to retain some of the other valuable players who are getting older, while contributing funds to other areas of the team like the bullpen."

Cedric
05-29-2008, 10:10 PM
Dunn isn't going to make so much money that his signing ruins chances to improve elsewhere. In today's game you better be able to extend your budget if you truly claim to want a winner. Castelinni seems like the kind of guy that realizes if he signs Dunn he better go "all in" for the few years he will be ending his prime. I'd hate to not sign Dunn and have to somehow find a replacement for his value. How much in either monetary or player value would you save in searching for that replacement in runs?

GAC
05-29-2008, 10:19 PM
I think it is logical for him to say "I am going to shoot for 2010-2011. I am not going to burn the future to try and win now. I might be able to turn Dunn into 2-3 young players who will be ready to contribute then. At least one of whom might be his replacement. I would also be able to take some of those $$ savings to retain some of the other valuable players who are getting older, while contributing funds to other areas of the team like the bullpen."

I agree; but won't the fans, especially those here on RZ, then say it's the same ol' cycle of building for the future?

And is that Jocketty's forte?.... stocking up one young talent/farm system? He usually goes into the market for that immediate impact player doesn't he?

And isn't that approach of patience in contrast to an impetuous owner who says the losing stops now? Will he wait another 2-3 years and hope the winning takes root?

And will the fans, just because it's Walt Jocketty?

GAC
05-29-2008, 10:21 PM
A co-worker told me last night that he listened to an interview with Jocketty during the game the other night and him seemed to lean towards resigning Dunn. Walt basically stated that if Dunn is allowed to leave you then have to go out and find a "Dunn".

corkedbat
05-29-2008, 10:25 PM
Dunn isn't going to make so much money that his signing ruins chances to improve elsewhere. In today's game you better be able to extend your budget if you truly claim to want a winner. Castelinni seems like the kind of guy that realizes if he signs Dunn he better go "all in" for the few years he will be ending his prime. I'd hate to not sign Dunn and have to somehow find a replacement for his value. How much in either monetary or player value would you save in searching for that replacement in runs?


Dunn already makes a large part of what he will make and Junior's $12.5M or so will come off the books (less the $4M buyout) plus the salaries of 8-10 other FA's we won't retain. I hope that most of the replacements are younger guys for the future (and as a consequence, less expensive).

I think this franchise is at a point where they have enough spare pieces that they can land two or three more key pieces (young OFer, C and a solid setup guy?).

The next 4-8 weeks and the moves/decisions made may well go a long way toward shaping Jocketty's impact on this team and the path this team is headed down. Let's hope he chooses wisely.

Cedric
05-29-2008, 10:48 PM
Dunn already makes a large part of what he will make and Junior's $12.5M or so will come off the books (less the $4M buyout) plus the salaries of 8-10 other FA's we won't retain. I hope that most of the replacements are younger guys for the future (and as a consequence, less expensive).

I think this franchise is at a point where they have enough spare pieces that they can land two or three more key pieces (young OFer, C and a solid setup guy?).

The next 4-8 weeks and the moves/decisions made may well go a long way toward shaping Jocketty's impact on this team and the path this team is headed down. Let's hope he chooses wisely.

The Reds should offer Homer/Edwin or some kind of package like that for a RH bat. With Keppinger being able to play 3b I am firmly in the camp of waiting for another Edwin hot streak and then sending him off. The Reds main goal should be getting a RH bat in the OF, a C, and some serious bench help.

edabbs44
05-29-2008, 10:50 PM
I agree; but won't the fans, especially those here on RZ, then say it's the same ol' cycle of building for the future?

And is that Jocketty's forte?.... stocking up one young talent/farm system? He usually goes into the market for that immediate impact player doesn't he?

And isn't that approach of patience in contrast to an impetuous owner who says the losing stops now? Will he wait another 2-3 years and hope the winning takes root?

And will the fans, just because it's Walt Jocketty?

I'm not sure what's going to happen. I've been on record for a while now saying that they either need to spend a lot of $$$ fast or to start planning for the future.

Cedric
05-29-2008, 10:51 PM
Trouble is, he got to the big club, as everyone knew he would. The fact that he signed either at the beginning of spring training or during it speaks volumes. No one wanted him.



So why grab anyone? Given Fogg's track record, the best move might have been no move. Notice how much he's helping the team now.



I don't see it that way, but it was so obvious what was going to happen with Fogg (especially at GABP) that no one with this organization should have even considered him.



I'd rather have had the kids come up. Surely, things wouldn't have been any worse--and you save a million dollars. Just like signing Patterson was a mistake--three times the mistake.



We're just going to have to agree to disagree, GAC. I have a lot of respect for your opinions, but I cannot in any way see how this team is much better than the mess he inherited in 2006. Yes, lots of talent can be found in the minors and some of them are up with the big team now, but the roster he went with--you can name all the players who were simply horrible here--and the roster formulation and wonder what the heck he was thinking.

Jocketty is making his moves and I like them. I look for better things and a more rational approach to making the big club better. That's all that matters to me.

You honestly can't see how this team is miles ahead of the 06 team? How about the fact Edinson Volquez is the best pitcher in baseball statistically? Krivsky brought in a great nucleus and luckily we have a guy like Jocketty who I think can deliver the final pieces. Bringing in Keppinger, Phillips, Volquez, Maloney, Thompson, and others is pretty nice. And really only Volquez and Thompson were for any type of talent loss. This team is within grasp of something big, IMO. In 06 this team wasn't in the same universe as winning.

Cedric
05-29-2008, 11:08 PM
I'm guilty of over thinking this thing just as much as anyone. I do think that is some of the problem here though. Almost every team in baseball has some junk players and management has some bad moves. I think the problem is when people start comparing bad vs good lists instead of looking at the job as a whole. I honestly can't even begin to describe how much better I feel today than I did when Dan O'brien traded for Tony Womack. The future is bright here and hopefully Walt gets us back where we belong.

OldXOhio
05-30-2008, 10:31 AM
Next time, use the whole quote and I'll answer.

in my best F. Fletch dialect: God I admire you.

You made the statement that you are not a fan of Jocketty's....I simply asked why. The question was posed because I respect your opinion and was curious as to why you felt the way you do about the guy. Nothing more, certainly not trying to make a point or doubt you - just looking for some of your insight. You on the other hand apparently have a differing stance when someone has the audacity to question you. Either way, don't worry about my inability to fully post one of your quotes next time - I simply won't bother at all.

Falls City Beer
05-30-2008, 11:20 AM
I agree; but won't the fans, especially those here on RZ, then say it's the same ol' cycle of building for the future?

And is that Jocketty's forte?.... stocking up one young talent/farm system? He usually goes into the market for that immediate impact player doesn't he?

And isn't that approach of patience in contrast to an impetuous owner who says the losing stops now? Will he wait another 2-3 years and hope the winning takes root?

And will the fans, just because it's Walt Jocketty?


Jocketty's earned the benefit of the doubt on a two or three year timeline. Krivsky, fair or not, hasn't earned the leeway to build for 5 years in my mind . I'd much rather have Jocketty on the latter end of this current amassing of talent (which is in year 3 of the Krivsky tenure and week 5 of the Jocketty tenure).

Chip R
05-30-2008, 11:28 AM
Walt has usually acquired talent through trades rather than free agency. Contrary to popular belief, it usually takes talent to acquire talent so look at the current roster and the minor league system and identify the players who are talented enough to be attractive to another team in a trade. You may not like what you see in more ways than one since people seem to want to keep the very talented players we have and there may not be as much depth in the minor league system as we think.

WVRedsFan
05-30-2008, 11:45 AM
Jocketty's earned the benefit of the doubt on a two or three year timeline. Krivsky, fair or not, hasn't earned the leeway to build for 5 years in my mind . I'd much rather have Jocketty on the latter end of this current amassing of talent (which is in year 3 of the Krivsky tenure and week 5 of the Jocketty tenure).

I keep going back to this, so forgive me. I trust Jocketty to formulate a solid roster. He not only traded for good players (an option he may not have here), but he was always able to get players that made a difference and make up a roster the manager could use. Krivsky was a parts man. a part here, a part there, but never anything as a whole that could provide wins. The common assertation has been that he developed the minor league system into a usuable entity, but what good is that if the roster you put on the big league team is disfunctional?

I'd put Jocketty on a three year contract and see what the results are.

RedsManRick
05-30-2008, 12:37 PM
Jocketty's historical expertise lies in taking advantage of buy low, sell high opportunities.

Look at Edmonds for Bottenfield/Kennedy or Rolen for Polanco/Timlin/Smith. Edmonds was battling and facing arbitration. Rolen was running himself out of town and facing a very large payday. Jocketty leveraged good years from mediocre players to acquire elite talent.

He uses non-elite prospects and mediocre veterans to acquire key pieces. In the event he feels the need to trade away a proven talent, he gets good return (Wainwright/King/Marquis for Drew/Marrero).

What he doesn't do is make big commitments to mediocre free agents. My hope is that he takes proper advantage of the 2009-2011 window that is pretty clearly developing. Wayne has set him up with a good deal of fiscal certainty and a nice core of pre-arb talent. Navigating the Dunn situation will really be THE key decision of the next 9 months.

GAC
05-30-2008, 02:33 PM
Jocketty's earned the benefit of the doubt on a two or three year timeline. Krivsky, fair or not, hasn't earned the leeway to build for 5 years in my mind . I'd much rather have Jocketty on the latter end of this current amassing of talent (which is in year 3 of the Krivsky tenure and week 5 of the Jocketty tenure).

I don't care that Krivsky is gone. I just didn't like the way this impetuous owner handled the situation.

And his whole reasoning for firing Wayne and hiring Jocketty was because he was impatient and the losing stops now.

I myself laughed at the latter statement because when one realistically looks at this '08 club and what needs to be accomplished the losing wasn't going to stop now just because Jocketty is at the helm. Even Jocketty acknowledges that.

You acknowledge the "amassing of talent" in Krivsky's 2 years at the helm But in previous discussions you have demonstrated either impatience or a refusal to acknowledge that with a lot of this young talent there is a developmental/maturation period in that curve that involves a year or two of being patient and possibly taking your lumps in doing so.

In 2008 we're now seeing those players getting the opportunity. Young guys like Votto, Volquez, Cueto, Bruce, and maybe at some point Bailey and Janish. And I would also add players like Phillips and Keppinger into that mix. Together, those young players, mixed in with established core players like Dunn, Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero could mean a very bright future if certain other key acquisitions are made while ridding ourselves of various fodder/marginal players.

IMO, Krivsky made his share of blunders; but he also acquired some of the very key pieces that Walt now gets to build on.

Jocketty inherited a team with a stronger foundation then what Krivsky inherited. So I don't see how the fans are going to give him 2-3 years, and going through the '09 and '10 seasons, if this team continues to struggle and/or hover around .500 baseball, just because he's Walt Jocketty.

I'm behind Jocketty. I hope he succeeds. But as far as the fans go... the clock is ticking. And if he doesn't take what he already has, and show some major improvement in '09, then the fans will be no more kinder to him then they were Krivsky.

And you can archive that. ;)

GAC
05-30-2008, 02:36 PM
Rolen was running himself out of town and facing a very large payday.

Rolen also stated that under no circumstances was he returning to the Phillies. He had them over a barrel where they had no choice but to trade him and try to get something back in return. Jocketty benefited from that, and also Rolen's desire, being from Indiana, that he wanted to stay in the Midwest.

Falls City Beer
05-30-2008, 02:45 PM
I don't care that Krivsky is gone. I just didn't like the way this impetuous owner handled the situation.

And his whole reasoning for firing Wayne and hiring Jocketty was because he was impatient and the losing stops now.

I myself laughed at the latter statement because when one realistically looks at this '08 club and what needs to be accomplished the losing wasn't going to stop now just because Jocketty is at the helm. Even Jocketty acknowledges that.

You acknowledge the "amassing of talent" in Krivsky's 2 years at the helm But in previous discussions you have demonstrated either impatience or a refusal to acknowledge that with a lot of this young talent there is a developmental/maturation period in that curve that involves a year or two of being patient and possibly taking your lumps in doing so.

In 2008 we're now seeing those players getting the opportunity. Young guys like Votto, Volquez, Cueto, Bruce, and maybe at some point Bailey and Janish. And I would also add players like Phillips and Keppinger into that mix. Together, those young players, mixed in with established core players like Dunn, Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero could mean a very bright future if certain other key acquisitions are made while ridding ourselves of various fodder/marginal players.

IMO, Krivsky made his share of blunders; but he also acquired some of the very key pieces that Walt now gets to build on.

Jocketty inherited a team with a stronger foundation then what Krivsky inherited. So I don't see how the fans are going to give him 2-3 years, and going through the '09 and '10 seasons, if this team continues to struggle and/or hover around .500 baseball, just because he's Walt Jocketty.

I'm behind Jocketty. I hope he succeeds. But as far as the fans go... the clock is ticking. And if he doesn't take what he already has, and show some major improvement in '09, then the fans will be no more kinder to him then they were Krivsky.

And you can archive that. ;)

It's pretty simple: Wayne was working much too slowly. Krivsky was responsible for only two major pieces of a 25-man roster that comprises a contending future: Volquez and the resigning of Harang (everyone else of any worth was a holdover/draft pick of former GMs). Otherwise, he futzed around with filler and really choked on some draft picks.

But maybe the biggest thing is that he didn't have the muscle or the resume to encourage Castellini's faith (cf. Krivsky's constant hat-in-hand requests for dumping stupid self-inflicted contracts) in his method. The issue with most folks I think is that as long as the team doesn't go "backwards," the belief is the team will "eventually" get to contention. But in reality, that's seldom how it works. Teams plateau--it happens all the time; finding that last push eludes all but the best in the business and the vast majority of GMs are so clueless they don't even sniff the "plateau." And while it's *possible* that Krivsky might have gotten there, the timeline was two + years in and little sign of contention on the near horizon, and fewer signals of long-term contention when you consider what kind of talent Krivsky drafted.

I do think it's downright hysterical though that the lion's share of Reds' fans on this site are moaning about an owner who demands accountability. Really, it's tear-wipingly hilarious.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 04:24 PM
I don't care that Krivsky is gone. I just didn't like the way this impetuous owner handled the situation.

And his whole reasoning for firing Wayne and hiring Jocketty was because he was impatient and the losing stops now.

I myself laughed at the latter statement because when one realistically looks at this '08 club and what needs to be accomplished the losing wasn't going to stop now just because Jocketty is at the helm. Even Jocketty acknowledges that.

You acknowledge the "amassing of talent" in Krivsky's 2 years at the helm But in previous discussions you have demonstrated either impatience or a refusal to acknowledge that with a lot of this young talent there is a developmental/maturation period in that curve that involves a year or two of being patient and possibly taking your lumps in doing so.

In 2008 we're now seeing those players getting the opportunity. Young guys like Votto, Volquez, Cueto, Bruce, and maybe at some point Bailey and Janish. And I would also add players like Phillips and Keppinger into that mix. Together, those young players, mixed in with established core players like Dunn, Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero could mean a very bright future if certain other key acquisitions are made while ridding ourselves of various fodder/marginal players.

IMO, Krivsky made his share of blunders; but he also acquired some of the very key pieces that Walt now gets to build on.

Jocketty inherited a team with a stronger foundation then what Krivsky inherited. So I don't see how the fans are going to give him 2-3 years, and going through the '09 and '10 seasons, if this team continues to struggle and/or hover around .500 baseball, just because he's Walt Jocketty.

I'm behind Jocketty. I hope he succeeds. But as far as the fans go... the clock is ticking. And if he doesn't take what he already has, and show some major improvement in '09, then the fans will be no more kinder to him then they were Krivsky.

And you can archive that. ;)

:clap::clap::clap:

oregonred
05-30-2008, 04:31 PM
It's pretty simple: Wayne was working much too slowly. Krivsky was responsible for only two major pieces of a 25-man roster that comprises a contending future: Volquez and the resigning of Harang (everyone else of any worth was a holdover/draft pick of former GMs). Otherwise, he futzed around with filler and really choked on some draft picks.



I guess Brandon Phillips for zero, zilch, nada isn't part of the future? I missed the memo...

Picking up Hamilton (Volquez), Burton and Keppinger for nada, zilch, nothing didn't count either?

That's a rotation arm with ace stuff under control for six years, a solid middle infielder (for a franchise that had nothing in the pipeline), an above average bullpen arm and a guy that just seems to hit and hit and hit.

The beautiful thing is that each of these youthful parts were essentially free and each moves provided above average production at bargain basement salaries for 4-5 seasons. The financial flexibility from 2008-2010 afforded by each of these four savvy moves is enormous. Name me a current GM who brought in that kind of haul for nothing over the last 24 months?

Krivsky may not have been the GM answer going forward to finish the puzzle, but to continually suggest that the franchise isn't in a much better state of go-forward talent then the pre-2006 mess borders on absurd.

Highlifeman21
05-30-2008, 05:48 PM
I'm hoping the next 2 months are filled with drastic roster altering moves.

I hope the Good outweigh the Bad, b/c I can't imagine Walt will win every trade, but as long as when all the dust settles August 1st that we're a better team, I can't complain.

WVRedsFan
05-30-2008, 06:09 PM
I guess Brandon Phillips for zero, zilch, nada isn't part of the future? I missed the memo...

Picking up Hamilton (Volquez), Burton and Keppinger for nada, zilch, nothing didn't count either?

That's a rotation arm with ace stuff under control for six years, a solid middle infielder (for a franchise that had nothing in the pipeline), an above average bullpen arm and a guy that just seems to hit and hit and hit.

The beautiful thing is that each of these youthful parts were essentially free and each moves provided above average production at bargain basement salaries for 4-5 seasons. The financial flexibility from 2008-2010 afforded by each of these four savvy moves is enormous. Name me a current GM who brought in that kind of haul for nothing over the last 24 months?

Krivsky may not have been the GM answer going forward to finish the puzzle, but to continually suggest that the franchise isn't in a much better state of go-forward talent then the pre-2006 mess borders on absurd.

I think most people think in terms of what state the MLB club is in when they say franchise. I think most people judge that by W-L record. That means that we haven't improved that much. If you look at the whole picutre, it does look some better, but the MLB roster is still impossible for any manager to have success with.

That will soon change.

REDREAD
05-30-2008, 06:39 PM
I guess Brandon Phillips for zero, zilch, nada isn't part of the future? I missed the memo...

Picking up Hamilton (Volquez), Burton and Keppinger for nada, zilch, nothing didn't count either?
rd.

yes, those 4 moves were excellent. No one on the website is disputing that.

IMO, Wayne's main problem was all the BAD parts he also added. All the money he wasted. Also, he just seemed to have no idea how to build a winning team. He was good at finding undervalued and unappreciated parts from other teams. He was horrible at adding the correct pieces the ML team needed to move forward (Cormier, Fogg, Stanton, Maj + Bray, AGon, Ross).
He indiscriminately extended every experienced player on the roster. Couldn't figure out that the right move would've been to say bye bye to Castro instead of extending him. He gave Freel 2 years at 7 million when there was no need to (Freel was under our control regardless). He made a lot of tactical mistakes in building the roster, which showed up in the W-L record. That outweighed the four good players you mentioned..


He also let a few young/cheap players go for nothing.. Brandon Harris, possibly Dumatriat, Cantu, some AAA relievers,... These aren't going to cripple the franchise by any means, but given the lack of depth we have, they'd be useful now.

Falls City Beer
05-30-2008, 06:46 PM
I guess Brandon Phillips for zero, zilch, nada isn't part of the future? I missed the memo...

Picking up Hamilton (Volquez), Burton and Keppinger for nada, zilch, nothing didn't count either?

That's a rotation arm with ace stuff under control for six years, a solid middle infielder (for a franchise that had nothing in the pipeline), an above average bullpen arm and a guy that just seems to hit and hit and hit.

The beautiful thing is that each of these youthful parts were essentially free and each moves provided above average production at bargain basement salaries for 4-5 seasons. The financial flexibility from 2008-2010 afforded by each of these four savvy moves is enormous. Name me a current GM who brought in that kind of haul for nothing over the last 24 months?

Krivsky may not have been the GM answer going forward to finish the puzzle, but to continually suggest that the franchise isn't in a much better state of go-forward talent then the pre-2006 mess borders on absurd.

Of course it's better. But such is the distortion of living under one of the great reigns of incompetence in MLB history, not just Reds' history. Any respectable improvement is going to seem like the Garden of Eden by comparison. If someone says that the team didn't improve under Krivsky, they are wrong. But let's not get nuts. This team is far, far away from contending, and much of the good about this team is not even the result of Krivsky's labors.

Will M
05-30-2008, 06:51 PM
IMO, Wayne's main problem was all the BAD parts he also added. All the money he wasted. Also, he just seemed to have no idea how to build a winning team. He was good at finding undervalued and unappreciated parts from other teams. He was horrible at adding the correct pieces the ML team needed to move forward (Cormier, Fogg, Stanton, Maj + Bray, AGon, Ross).
He indiscriminately extended every experienced player on the roster. Couldn't figure out that the right move would've been to say bye bye to Castro instead of extending him. He gave Freel 2 years at 7 million when there was no need to (Freel was under our control regardless). He made a lot of tactical mistakes in building the roster, which showed up in the W-L record. That outweighed the four good players you mentioned...

well said.



He also let a few young/cheap players go for nothing.. Brandon Harris, possibly Dumatriat, Cantu, some AAA relievers,... These aren't going to cripple the franchise by any means, but given the lack of depth we have, they'd be useful now.

there have been a few guys let go for nothing that i thought had value.
these were especially bad because of the junk ( ie castro ) that we kept instead

GAC
05-30-2008, 07:44 PM
I guess Brandon Phillips for zero, zilch, nada isn't part of the future? I missed the memo...

Picking up Hamilton (Volquez), Burton and Keppinger for nada, zilch, nothing didn't count either?

That's a rotation arm with ace stuff under control for six years, a solid middle infielder (for a franchise that had nothing in the pipeline), an above average bullpen arm and a guy that just seems to hit and hit and hit.

The beautiful thing is that each of these youthful parts were essentially free and each moves provided above average production at bargain basement salaries for 4-5 seasons. The financial flexibility from 2008-2010 afforded by each of these four savvy moves is enormous. Name me a current GM who brought in that kind of haul for nothing over the last 24 months?

Good post. And lets not forget a guy named Bronson Arroyo, as well as young arms in the system like Maloney and Thompson.


Krivsky may not have been the GM answer going forward to finish the puzzle, but to continually suggest that the franchise isn't in a much better state of go-forward talent then the pre-2006 mess borders on absurd.

Exactly. Some like to really emphasize WK's blunders. And yes, he made his share. With me, it wasn't about the Claytons, Castros, Conines, etc. Wayne knew these were marginal players. He didn't acquire these players to build around. IMO, he was trying to fill in spots that this franchise didn't have immediate answers for in the farm system and buy us some more time while giving some of those young players time to develop and not be rushed.

He didn't have a lot of payroll flexibility because of LTCs (commitments) already on the books when he took over. Some of those had to be waited out.

And Krivsky didn't saddle this organization (or current GM) under several bad LTCs either. Jocketty is not going to have to deal with an Eric Milton, and soon a KGJr.

Krivksy's eyes were more on the future (long term), not the immediate. And that is probably where he and Castellini came to differ.

No, some of the players already here were not Krivsky's. But he was smart enough to recognize that certain players were key and needed to be retained.

Look at the below market contract he signed Harang to.

One of his first acts was to resign Dunn.

It should have been one of Jocketty's first acts too; but he's given no indication he is going to. I hope that changes soon.


But let's not get nuts. This team is far, far away from contending, and much of the good about this team is not even the result of Krivsky's labors.

The same can be said for Jocketty.

The fact of the matter is, that if this team starts to contend over the next year or so (and I believe it will), a majority of the parts will not even be a result of Jocketty's labors.

He is simply going to try and build on what he has. Not gut it. He will simply be at the helm to benefit from those players he had nothing to do with acquiring. Especially some in the farm system.

oregonred
05-30-2008, 10:33 PM
yes, those 4 moves were excellent. No one on the website is disputing that.

Great, we agree then. The post I responded to was a direct response to a claim that only Volquez and Harang were part of the go-forward solution under Krivsky's tenure.


IMO, Wayne's main problem was all the BAD parts he also added. All the money he wasted. Also, he just seemed to have no idea how to build a winning team. He was good at finding undervalued and unappreciated parts from other teams. He was horrible at adding the correct pieces the ML team needed to move forward (Cormier, Fogg, Stanton, Maj + Bray, AGon, Ross).
He indiscriminately extended every experienced player on the roster. Couldn't figure out that the right move would've been to say bye bye to Castro instead of extending him. He gave Freel 2 years at 7 million when there was no need to (Freel was under our control regardless). He made a lot of tactical mistakes in building the roster, which showed up in the W-L record. That outweighed the four good players you mentioned...

This is a different issue to address. Yes frustrating as Hades that dreck like Castro, Stanton and Patterson were given contracts, but I also believe this is small potatoes in comparison to the strategic heavy lifting of acquiring 1) an ace stud, 2) an above average Middle infielder, 3) a promising setup man, 4) a #3 starter (Arroyo, as GAC reminded me) and 5) an intriguing plug-in talent in Keppinger. Again all of these CHEAP, YOUNG parts for zilch, zero, nada. None of those moves you listed impact the team beyond 2008 (with exception of Gonzalez into 2009). That's what likely got Wayne fired, but they are all fixable issues that Jocketty should be able to easily address.



He also let a few young/cheap players go for nothing.. Brandon Harris, possibly Dumatriat, Cantu, some AAA relievers,... These aren't going to cripple the franchise by any means, but given the lack of depth we have, they'd be useful now.

Now you are reaching for straws here. If these are three examples of letting go talent then I'd say Wayne was on the right evaluation track. Harris is 28 and OPS'ing .660 for the Twins and Cantu is nothing special. So you are on the Dumatrait bandwagon now? Compare this to the haul noted above and you'll see the folly in dinging Wayne for this line of thinking.

oregonred
05-30-2008, 10:51 PM
Of course it's better..

Great, that was my point. You claimed only two go-forward pieces were part of Wayne's work and I added some other very important ones you missed


But such is the distortion of living under one of the great reigns of incompetence in MLB history, not just Reds' history. Any respectable improvement is going to seem like the Garden of Eden by comparison. .

Ok, so Wayne improved the club and the franchise is in much better shape than 24 months ago. We agree then.


If someone says that the team didn't improve under Krivsky, they are wrong. .

FCB, I may have to footnote this one for future reference ;)


But let's not get nuts. This team is far, far away from contending, and much of the good about this team is not even the result of Krivsky's labors.

Yes, work remains. But we disagree on the competitiveness of the team. This team could contend in 2008 with 1-2 creative moves and regardless of where 2008 ends up the team is now setup to be a serious contender from 2009-2011.

The four top rotatation pieces are all a result of Wayne's efforts...

Harang - Extended below market by Krivsky
Volquez - Ace stud out of Rule V thin air (Hamilton then Volquez)
Arroyo - Above average starter acquired for Wily Mo Pena. For Wily Mo Pena. Hard to type that without chuckling...
Cueto - Patience (not dealt away foolishly)

In the wings: Thompson and Maloney. Both WayneK acquisitions

Pen

Coco C - Closer for next four years. Most likely able to sign due to major money saving moves made by Krivsky freeing up resources from '08-'11 (Phillips, Volquez, Harang, Phillips, Keppinger, etc.)

Burton, Bray - solid and cheap

Affeldt - solid, good signing for '08

Position Players

Phillips - Huge part of the competitive puzzle
Votto- Patience afforded by GM to not deal him for a short term win
Keppinger - Great guy to have on the roster as a starter or a super-sub
Dunn - Still part of the team in 2008 due to extension signed in 2006

Stormy
05-30-2008, 11:05 PM
Fantastic, and accurate, series of posts oregonred. :thumbup:

oregonred
05-30-2008, 11:24 PM
Fantastic, and accurate, series of posts oregonred. :thumbup:

From the legendary poster now known simply as Stormy (and a fellow Duke Alumnus) that is some mighty high praise ;)

How about 10 solid innings from the group of Volquez, Bray, Burton and Coco C tonight. Good pen arms used in the right order to eat up some high leverage innings. :thumbup:

A beautiful 3-2 win over the Braves. Outdueling and outgunning the Braves with a quartet of nice arms. An unlikely type of win witnessed in Cincinnati over the past decade. Phillips with the winning hit (thanks again, Wayne K)

Falls City Beer
05-30-2008, 11:27 PM
Great, that was my point. You claimed only two go-forward pieces were part of Wayne's work and I added some other very important ones you missed



Ok, so Wayne improved the club and the franchise is in much better shape than 24 months ago. We agree then.



FCB, I may have to footnote this one for future reference ;)



Yes, work remains. But we disagree on the competitiveness of the team. This team could contend in 2008 with 1-2 creative moves and regardless of where 2008 ends up the team is now setup to be a serious contender from 2009-2011.

The four top rotatation pieces are all a result of Wayne's efforts...

Harang - Extended below market by Krivsky
Volquez - Ace stud out of Rule V thin air (Hamilton then Volquez)
Arroyo - Above average starter acquired for Wily Mo Pena. For Wily Mo Pena. Hard to type that without chuckling...
Cueto - Patience (not dealt away foolishly)

In the wings: Thompson and Maloney. Both WayneK acquisitions

Pen

Coco C - Closer for next four years. Most likely able to sign due to major money saving moves made by Krivsky freeing up resources from '08-'11 (Phillips, Volquez, Harang, Phillips, Keppinger, etc.)

Burton, Bray - solid and cheap

Affeldt - solid, good signing for '08

Position Players

Phillips - Huge part of the competitive puzzle
Votto- Patience afforded by GM to not deal him for a short term win
Keppinger - Great guy to have on the roster as a starter or a super-sub
Dunn - Still part of the team in 2008 due to extension signed in 2006

This team has NO chance of competing this season.

Falls City Beer
05-30-2008, 11:35 PM
How about 10 solid innings from the group of Volquez, Bray, Burton and Coco C tonight. Good pen arms used in the right order to eat up some high leverage innings.

Careful now. That might construed as praise for Dusty.

edabbs44
05-30-2008, 11:37 PM
Careful now. That might construed as praise for Dusty.

Praise for Dusty = negative imaginary rep points.

guttle11
05-30-2008, 11:38 PM
This team has NO chance of competing this season.

Can we play them all at home?

HokieRed
05-30-2008, 11:46 PM
Why no credit for Mercker? And for Walt bringing up another useful part of the bullpen in exchange for the non-contributor Belisle.

Highlifeman21
05-30-2008, 11:57 PM
This team has NO chance of competing this season.

That was obvious during ST.

It hasn't changed since then. In fact, it's probably gotten worse, if anything.

GAC
05-31-2008, 05:49 PM
Great, that was my point. You claimed only two go-forward pieces were part of Wayne's work and I added some other very important ones you missed



Ok, so Wayne improved the club and the franchise is in much better shape than 24 months ago. We agree then.



FCB, I may have to footnote this one for future reference ;)



Yes, work remains. But we disagree on the competitiveness of the team. This team could contend in 2008 with 1-2 creative moves and regardless of where 2008 ends up the team is now setup to be a serious contender from 2009-2011.

The four top rotatation pieces are all a result of Wayne's efforts...

Harang - Extended below market by Krivsky
Volquez - Ace stud out of Rule V thin air (Hamilton then Volquez)
Arroyo - Above average starter acquired for Wily Mo Pena. For Wily Mo Pena. Hard to type that without chuckling...
Cueto - Patience (not dealt away foolishly)

In the wings: Thompson and Maloney. Both WayneK acquisitions

Pen

Coco C - Closer for next four years. Most likely able to sign due to major money saving moves made by Krivsky freeing up resources from '08-'11 (Phillips, Volquez, Harang, Phillips, Keppinger, etc.)

Burton, Bray - solid and cheap

Affeldt - solid, good signing for '08

Position Players

Phillips - Huge part of the competitive puzzle
Votto- Patience afforded by GM to not deal him for a short term win
Keppinger - Great guy to have on the roster as a starter or a super-sub
Dunn - Still part of the team in 2008 due to extension signed in 2006

Hard to argue with any of that oregon.

Good post.

Jocketty needs to build on this..... not dismantle it.

HokieRed
05-31-2008, 07:19 PM
Simple, straightforward, near-term move: make sure Josh Fogg makes no more appearances in a Cincinnati uniform.