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flyer85
05-27-2008, 01:42 PM
From the Reds:

Today the Reds recalled from Class AAA Louisville OF Jay Bruce and designated for assignment 1B Scott Hatteberg.


I guess Patterson is too good to lose

from Rotoworld


The Cincinnati Enquirer reports that the Reds may designate Scott Hatteberg for assignment Tuesday to make room on the roster for Jay Bruce.
Hatteberg lost his starting job to Joey Votto and has complained about pinch-hitting duties, but he's still among the team's better hitters.

Will M
05-27-2008, 01:44 PM
I guess Patterson is too good to lose

from Rotoworld

wow! I would imagine they have been trying to trade him but am suprised no one wants him.

Unassisted
05-27-2008, 01:45 PM
DFAing Patterson makes it harder to send Bruce down if he tanks or slips behind other OFs for a starting role. DFAing Hatteberg keeps that option on the table. The latter move would indicate Jocketty has more faith in Votto sticking than Bruce.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 01:47 PM
Hatteberg doesn't make the team better. Patterson at least helps in the defense and pinch running department.

Puffy
05-27-2008, 01:48 PM
I actually think keeping Patterson on the roster is the smart GM move. He is a good defensive guy and he has some speed.

However, much the same as with all Reds managers in the recent past, having Patterson on the roster with Baker as the manager means Patterson is going to play, and thats where having Patterson falls apart.

Play him once or twice a week and bat him seventh - good things.

Play him more than that and bat him leadoff or second - very bad things.

Hopefully Bruce rakes and takes option b right out of the equation, even for Dusty (who for all his faults does play young guys when they prove they should play)

REDREAD
05-27-2008, 01:49 PM
It's the right move. Hat is probably the least valuable bench guy. Can only play 1b and can't pinch hit. No point in carrying him. Another dumb extension by Wayne. I hope Cast is ready to get out the Heinz 57 sauce to eat another contract.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 01:51 PM
However, much the same as with all Reds managers in the recent past, having Patterson on the roster with Baker as the manager means Patterson is going to play, and thats where having Patterson falls apart.
as we have seen Dusty cannot help himself.

klw
05-27-2008, 01:52 PM
Hatte's contract is also 2 million dollars cheaper to eat than Patterson's.

Chip R
05-27-2008, 01:53 PM
It's the right move. Hat is probably the least valuable bench guy. Can only play 1b and can't pinch hit. No point in carrying him.


Unfortunately I think you're right.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 01:53 PM
Hatte's contract is also 2 million dollars cheaper to eat than Patterson's.
both are sunk costs as neither has any trade value.

My preference would be to send both packing.

klw
05-27-2008, 01:55 PM
if they are keeping Patterson, I wonder what will happen if Hopper ever returns. What is his status anyway?

RedsManRick
05-27-2008, 01:58 PM
Sadly, the only thing Hatteberg brings to the table at this point is a LH bat who can pinch hit. And while given the small sample of 50 some odd at bats, he hasn't hit. At least Javy can be the third catcher and Patterson can play good defense and run.

It's unfortunate that we couldn't trade him for anything (we still might), but he's the least useful player on the roster right now. As for Scott, I don't think you'll hear him complain about getting a shot to move to a contender.

fearofpopvol1
05-27-2008, 02:00 PM
Hatte is the right person to jettison, but the problem is that Baker will likely continue to run Patterson out there (ineffectively) more than he should.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-27-2008, 02:02 PM
Out of 691 players eligible, Patterson ranks 665th in VORP (-5.7).

Yes, he is that bad.

Of course, VORP doesn't account for defense. Personally, I would also keep him for his defense and speed off the bench, but I hope he gets VERY limited AB's from here on out.

Joseph
05-27-2008, 02:02 PM
I too actually agree this is the right move if no player can be traded. He and Valentin are redundant, at least Valentin can catch and is good [occasionally] as a PHer.

As for 'eating' the contract, at this point its not so much eating Hattes money as adding Bruces. This costs the Reds the prorated minimum, not Hattes 1.85 or whatever it is. That money is/was already spent.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 02:04 PM
instead of keeping Patterson why not bring in a RH bat that can actually hit ... even a little. Andy Phillips would likely be a huge improvement.

BTW, outside of possibly SS I would say defensive replacements are WAY overrated.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 02:07 PM
instead of keeping Patterson why not bring in a RH bat that can actually hit ... even a little. Andy Phillips would likely be a huge improvement.

I'll take "Things that should have been thought about during the offseason" for $200, Alex.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 02:09 PM
I'll take "Things that should have been thought about during the offseason" for $200, Alex.the entire category should be an easy one. :D

cumberlandreds
05-27-2008, 02:17 PM
Keeping Patterson around is too much temptation for Dusty to slip him back into the lineup when Bruce takes an 0fer for the first time. Jocketty should DFA Patterson so Dusty won't keep shooting himself.

HokieRed
05-27-2008, 02:19 PM
I actually think it is imperative to DFA the worst player on the team in order to make it clear that playing time will actually have to be earned. Thus Patterson goes.

KronoRed
05-27-2008, 02:21 PM
Logically the best move but I'd rather get rid of Patterson and take the temptation away from Dusty, how many games now will go to the 9th close and with Dunn out and king Corey manning LF?

:help:

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 02:23 PM
Keeping Patterson around is too much temptation for Dusty to slip him back into the lineup when Bruce takes an 0fer for the first time. Jocketty should DFA Patterson so Dusty won't keep shooting himself.

Patterson should stay but Dusty should be told to use him in moderation. If Dusty relapses, then he is the one to go.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 02:24 PM
Logically the best move but I'd rather get rid of Patterson and take the temptation away from Dusty, how many games now will go to the 9th close and with Dunn out and king Corey manning LF?

:help:

Those kind of moves happen all the time. Dunn should be subbed for.

If the $46MM man doesn't blow the game, then none of this matters.

Reds Fanatic
05-27-2008, 02:24 PM
The problem with Patterson on the roster is at least a few times a week I can see Dusty starting Patterson and leaving Bruce on the bench. Bruce needs to play every day and I don't see them having Patterson sitting on the bench all the time making 3.5 million. If they get rid of Hatteberg then you have 6 OFs and 3 catchers on the roster. I guess this would makes Valentin the backup 1B. Keeping Patterson over Hatteberg makes no sense.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 02:25 PM
Those kind of moves happen all the time. Dunn should be subbed for.
that would the statue in RF known as Jr

Joseph
05-27-2008, 02:29 PM
I think if Bruce produces he has nothing to worry about. Dusty loves his guys, but he loves winning more.

KronoRed
05-27-2008, 02:30 PM
that would the statue in RF known as Jr

No kidding, but it's all about 'respect'

flyer85
05-27-2008, 02:30 PM
Bruce will play. As for where he will bat, it has to be leadoff because as far as I can tell the manager is a one-trick pony in that area.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 02:31 PM
No kidding, but it's all about 'respect'I felt sorry watching Jr try to score from second on the Valentin double on Sunday. It didn't look like he was going to make it with the refrigerator on his back ... his legs must be killing him.

vaticanplum
05-27-2008, 02:37 PM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/80/237756157_65acb8b7fb_o.gif

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 02:41 PM
Bruce will play. As for where he will bat, it has to be leadoff because as far as I can tell the manager is a one-trick pony in that area.

Just curious what the group here thinks

Flyer do you feel or think that leading off is the best place for the rookie Bruce to be batting or would it be better for him to bat down in the order?

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 02:43 PM
that would the statue in RF known as Jr

Maybe Grif shouldn't be out there to start with.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 02:44 PM
Just curious what the group here thinks

Flyer do you feel or think that leading off is the best place for the rookie Bruce to be batting or would it be better for him to bat down in the order?I would put him in front of Dunn ... might get him quite a few fastballs.

However, the Reds really don't have a good candidate for leadoff and since it seems obvious that neither Phillips or Jr is moving out of the middle of the order I think he'll bat leadoff.

redsmetz
05-27-2008, 02:46 PM
Keeping Patterson around is too much temptation for Dusty to slip him back into the lineup when Bruce takes an 0fer for the first time. Jocketty should DFA Patterson so Dusty won't keep shooting himself.

For all the disdain for Dusty Baker on this board, there is no emperical evidence with the 2008 Reds that Dusty will sit a youngster and play a veteran. He has stuck with EE and Votto with only occasional routine off days (EE's most recent illness notwithstanding). It's a kneejerk reaction that has no basis in reality this season to suggest that Bruce will sit while Patterson plays.

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 02:47 PM
I would put him in front of Dunn ... might get him quite a few fastballs.
However, the Reds really don't have a good candidate for leadoff and since it seems obvious that neither Phillips or Jr is moving out of the middle of the order I think he'll bat leadoff.

That's a good idea, Bruce probably would get more fastballs, that makes good sense.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 02:48 PM
Maybe Grif shouldn't be out there to start with.Jr's WARP to this point -0.2. Patterson has a WARP of +0.2.

However, we all know Jr is not
a) going to the bench
b) moving from the #3 spot in order
c) going to be removed for a defensive replacement

Kc61
05-27-2008, 02:50 PM
Dusty won't start Patterson. Not worried about that.

Dusty will double switch Patterson into the game in the late innings for defense. That's a potential problem, depending on who sits and the game circumstances.

Matt700wlw
05-27-2008, 03:04 PM
From the Reds:

Today the Reds recalled from Class AAA Louisville OF Jay Bruce and designated for assignment 1B Scott Hatteberg.

RedsManRick
05-27-2008, 03:06 PM
For all the disdain for Dusty Baker on this board, there is no emperical evidence with the 2008 Reds that Dusty will sit a youngster and play a veteran. He has stuck with EE and Votto with only occasional routine off days (EE's most recent illness notwithstanding). It's a kneejerk reaction that has no basis in reality this season to suggest that Bruce will sit while Patterson plays.

I think the veteran thing has been mislabeled. It's not that he won't play young guys. It's that he's extremely sensitive to "respecting" veteran players. That is, he'll put clubhouse considerations above game-level ones. We're actively seeing it with Junior batting 3rd despite his slow start.

Right or wrong, I don't think Votto vs Hatteberg was on Dusty's radar as a major political problem.

johngalt
05-27-2008, 03:08 PM
Out of 691 players eligible, Patterson ranks 665th in VORP (-5.7).

Yes, he is that bad.

Of course, VORP doesn't account for defense. Personally, I would also keep him for his defense and speed off the bench, but I hope he gets VERY limited AB's from here on out.

Side note - Can we start a petition to change VORP to VOCP (Value Over Corey Patterson)?

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 03:08 PM
Dusty won't start Patterson. Not worried about that.

Dusty will double switch Patterson into the game in the late innings for defense. That's a potential problem, depending on who sits and the game circumstances.

Dusty has been trying to make Patterson that image or vision that he has of a good leadoff hitter since Patterson first came up with the Cubs, that obsession for a lack of better definitive reasoning on my part has gone on a long time. Hit search Patterson and Baker and you will find that the story here of Patterson, Baker and Hairston is a long running replay, that the network of Reds execs. needs to take off the air.

Team Clark
05-27-2008, 03:09 PM
From the Reds:

Today the Reds recalled from Class AAA Louisville OF Jay Bruce and designated for assignment 1B Scott Hatteberg.

I wonder if Hatte will just go home now? It would not surprise me to see him get picked up but I wonder if he really wants to play anymore. Kind of like the Vanderwal situation in a way minus the injury.

Joseph
05-27-2008, 03:11 PM
I think if he does still want to play this is one of those DFAs that will net the Reds a suspect A baller at least in return.

Hatteberg did a good job replacing the popular Casey.

M2
05-27-2008, 03:12 PM
If Hatteberg was providing the club with a quality bat off the bench, he'd still be with the team. Instead he's hitting .173/.262/.231. Baseball's a cruel business. Fail to do your job, even over a relatively short period of time, and don't be shocked when you get canned.

OldXOhio
05-27-2008, 03:13 PM
I wonder if Hatte will just go home now? It would not surprise me to see him get picked up but I wonder if he really wants to play anymore. Kind of like the Vanderwal situation in a way minus the injury.


Wouldn't the fact that Hatte complained about a lack of PT answer that question. Or are you just asking in the event "the right team" doesn't come calling?

OnBaseMachine
05-27-2008, 03:13 PM
Hatte clearly wasn't helping the Reds and getting rid of him was the right move, but it's still sad to see a guy like him gone. He is a great guy and had a couple very nice seasons in Cincy. He'll probably be a coach someday...

OldXOhio
05-27-2008, 03:15 PM
Baseball's a cruel business. Fail to do your job, even over a relatively short period of time, and don't be shocked when you get canned.

True, but we were all surprised when he was brought back in 08 in the first place. The reasons for that sentiment were numerous.

Unassisted
05-27-2008, 03:16 PM
I haven't been paying much attention to Dusty's substitution patterns. What's the likely depth chart at 1B now?

Votto
Valentin
Freel

vaticanplum
05-27-2008, 03:20 PM
Scott Hatteberg is my favorite Red.

I understand why this was done, but I will be drinking away my sorrows during Jay Bruce's debut tonight. It would be overkill to eulogize him on this board, right?

Reds Fanatic
05-27-2008, 03:21 PM
I haven't been paying much attention to Dusty's substitution patterns. What's the likely depth chart at 1B now?

Votto
Valentin
Freel

Valentin is really the only other person that has played first this year so he would be the backup. The other player with the most past experience before this year playing first would be Dunn.

gm
05-27-2008, 03:21 PM
Wouldn't the fact that Hatte complained about a lack of PT answer that question.

Scott complained that he couldn't adjust his batting approach for pinch hitting duty, not that he should be starting instead of Votto

Chip R
05-27-2008, 03:23 PM
True, but we were all surprised when he was brought back in 08 in the first place. The reasons for that sentiment were numerous.


I think they weren't sure if Votto would be able to repeat what he did in Sept. Remember, the worst times to evaluate a player are March and September. Hatteberg was insurance and supposedly a very good influence in ST to guys like Bruce and Votto. If he were a RH hitter and/or producing off the bench, he'd probably still be on the roster.

Joseph
05-27-2008, 03:26 PM
Scott Hatteberg is my favorite Red.

I understand why this was done, but I will be drinking away my sorrows during Jay Bruce's debut tonight. It would be overkill to eulogize him on this board, right?

Go right ahead, I don't think anyone loathed Hatteberg like they did many.

HokieRed
05-27-2008, 03:26 PM
More Krivsky dead money. If Votto hadn't proven out, there were certainly other options than Scott Hatteberg--Dunn, Griffey, Keppinger, EE, the right-handed bat we might have picked up with the same money, Cantu etc.

redsmetz
05-27-2008, 03:28 PM
I think the veteran thing has been mislabeled. It's not that he won't play young guys. It's that he's extremely sensitive to "respecting" veteran players. That is, he'll put clubhouse considerations above game-level ones. We're actively seeing it with Junior batting 3rd despite his slow start.

Right or wrong, I don't think Votto vs Hatteberg was on Dusty's radar as a major political problem.

I still disagree. There is no way on earth that Patterson is getting any extensive playing time at the expense of Jay Bruce. It's just not going to happen.

LoganBuck
05-27-2008, 03:29 PM
It is inexcusable for Patterson to still have a job.

Hatteberg was redundant. Patterson stinks. Cut Patterson, call up any RH bat from Louisville, replacement level would be a vast improvement. Don't leave the job unfinished, Walt.

Caveat Emperor
05-27-2008, 03:31 PM
I like Hatteberg. I agree with whoever made the somewhat off-the-wall suggestion of naming him player-manager last season. He's the kind of guy that is going to find success post-playing in the dugout or on the coaching lines.

I'd rather have him on the team than Javy Valentin, who has a list of things he doesn't do well (catch, play first base, hit right handed, hit left handed) far in excess of things he does well.

And the reason Patterson is still here is because this team is going to move a corner OF and they'll need someone to play CF when Bruce shifts to the side. Handwriting is on the wall for Griffey, IMO.

gm
05-27-2008, 03:32 PM
Scott Hatteberg is my favorite Red.

I understand why this was done, but I will be drinking away my sorrows during Jay Bruce's debut tonight. It would be overkill to eulogize him on this board, right?

Since he grew up here in the NW, I've enjoyed the time he's been with Cincy

But it's clear he's no longer a quality starting first baseman. Similar to Sean Casey (who also wore #21) Scott reached the point of diminishing returns several years ago. Not every hitter can adjust to pinch hitting (even Pete Rose said he couldn't) and unless another ML team has an immediate opening at 1b/dh, I expect Hatteberg will possibly retire and may coach at some level (FWIW, Scott Brosius is head coaching at a small college near here)

REDREAD
05-27-2008, 03:34 PM
wow! I would imagine they have been trying to trade him but am suprised no one wants him.

Can only play 1b, not good enough to start, old, can't hit off the bench.

Not a very attractive player. Now maybe after the 10 days, someone will pick up him up at the minimum salary like they did with Castro, but why trade for a guy like Hat who is going to make a very minimal impact at best?

REDREAD
05-27-2008, 03:36 PM
I actually think it is imperative to DFA the worst player on the team in order to make it clear that playing time will actually have to be earned. Thus Patterson goes.


Hat is worse than Patterson.

Roy Tucker
05-27-2008, 03:37 PM
Sorry to see him go.

The real question is why was he on the 2008 roster at all.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-27-2008, 03:39 PM
Sorry to see him go.

The real question is why was he on the 2008 roster at all.

There are a few on this roster that make no sense.

REDREAD
05-27-2008, 03:41 PM
More Krivsky dead money. If Votto hadn't proven out, there were certainly other options than Scott Hatteberg--Dunn, Griffey, Keppinger, EE, the right-handed bat we might have picked up with the same money, Cantu etc.


They already had Valentine as well. They were planning on bringing in a 3rd catcher. No reason at all to pick up Hat's option. Wayne did his usual mistake of extending everyone, regardless of merit or projected performance.

If Votto crashed, there was plenty of in house options, as you pointed out.

Instead, Cast gets stuck eating another bad contract that Wayne thought was a "Good deal".

Tom Servo
05-27-2008, 03:44 PM
I'll miss you Hatte. God speed.

M2
05-27-2008, 03:47 PM
True, but we were all surprised when he was brought back in 08 in the first place. The reasons for that sentiment were numerous.

I wasn't surprised. The Reds still need someone to be a reliable PH. It's a material weakness on this club. If Hatteberg had been doing the job then he'd be considered an essential part of the team.

The job he was supposed to do is still a glaring need on a team devoid of hitting off the bench. Unfortunately Hatteberg failed to perform.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 03:51 PM
Sorry to see him go.

The real question is why was he on the 2008 roster at all.

A move that completely backfired.

Made no sense at the time and still doesn't.

Patrick Bateman
05-27-2008, 03:52 PM
I would have dumped Valentin rather than Hatt. Hatt's career to me shows that his bat will come around, at least to the degree needed to get a reliable pinch hitter. His failure via the small sample size is not enough to indicate that he'll fail in this role.

Part of me thinks the Reds dumped him more to accomodate him. Clearly he wasn't happy with his role, especially on a loser team, and the mutual feeling to get him in a decent place to finish his career. Hopefully he lands somewhere that needs him.

M2
05-27-2008, 03:52 PM
No reason at all to pick up Hat's option. Wayne did his usual mistake of extending everyone, regardless of merit or projected performance

Hatteberg was coming off his best two-year run ever. There's your merit. And PECOTA projected him at .285/.368/.440. Had he delivered on that actual (as opposed to ex post facto pretense) projected performance, he'd be a valued member of this team and somebody else would be getting the boot today.

redsmetz
05-27-2008, 03:53 PM
The fact is, some club may want him, but we'll pick up the tab (less the ML minnie prorated). I still don't disagree with having picked up his option. It's not an enormous financial strain and it happens with clubs year in and year out. Good luck, Scott. You served us well these past two seasons.

M2
05-27-2008, 03:56 PM
Made no sense at the time and still doesn't.

Bats off the bench make no sense? Who knew?

In that case I'm certainly glad to be done with those nonsensical benches the Reds had in '99 and '00.

NC Reds
05-27-2008, 03:58 PM
Fare thee well Hatte. Fare thee well.

I hope a contending team picks him up and gets him some occasional AB's. When Hopper is healthy, I hope Patterson sees the door. Hopper is not as good defensively, but we don't need both of them lousing up the bench.

Always Red
05-27-2008, 04:02 PM
I wasn't surprised. The Reds still need someone to be a reliable PH. It's a material weakness on this club. If Hatteberg had been doing the job then he'd be considered an essential part of the team.

The job he was supposed to do is still a glaring need on a team devoid of hitting off the bench. Unfortunately Hatteberg failed to perform.

Yes.

Hatte has stated many times that he is not a very good PH'er.

But if he wants to stay in the game a year or two longer, it's a role he'll need to embrace, because it's really all he has left.

I'm not surprised it was Hatteberg who was DFA'd; Patterson really does bring much more to the team. Someone mentioned earlier that playing Bruce in CF actually weakens the defense (as opposed to having Patterson out there). I agree with that, and I think we'll be seeing a lot of Corey in CF late in games, and a lot of Jay Bruce flipping to LF or (gasp :eek:) even RF in late innings.

If I'm not mistaken, Hatte was the first guy Kriv brought in. I was less than impressed with the acquisition at the time, but quickly grew to enjoy watching Scott hit. When he was on, he could give in a clinic in displaying patience at the dish, and then lining a shot into the LF gap.

Good luck to you, Hatte!

SMcGavin
05-27-2008, 04:05 PM
I wasn't surprised. The Reds still need someone to be a reliable PH. It's a material weakness on this club. If Hatteberg had been doing the job then he'd be considered an essential part of the team.

The job he was supposed to do is still a glaring need on a team devoid of hitting off the bench. Unfortunately Hatteberg failed to perform.

Wait, you mean Krivsky shouldn't be lambasted for failing to forsee Hatteberg's OPS dropping over 300 points from its 2006/2007 levels? Crazy talk.

lollipopcurve
05-27-2008, 04:06 PM
Hatteberg had a nice run with the Reds. Even those who roundly blistered his acquisition would have to acknowledge that. The bench may be none the worse, but I imagine the clubhouse will be.

Highlifeman21
05-27-2008, 04:10 PM
Right guy up, wrong guy down.

Hatteberg goes instead of Valentin?

Really?

Jpup
05-27-2008, 04:13 PM
I'm sure Scott is happy to be let go. In the long run, it probably won't matter for this team. Hatteberg was a joy to watch. He actually may end up in Louisville if he doesn't get picked up. I think he still wants to play or it appears that way.

WVRedsFan
05-27-2008, 04:13 PM
Great player and attitude who played on some very unsuccessful teams. Joey Votto made him expendable, and yet the former GM exercised his option because no one is in the market for a 38-39 YO first baseman who can't hit lefties. Regardless, it was a pleasure watching him on the Reds and I wish him well.

This is the first of many moves IMHO that will be made by Jocketty to get rid of some of the players that the former GM coveted. Look for Ross, Valentin, Gonzalez, Freel, and others to go next. Walt's problem is that all of those, save Javier, have contracts that make them difficult to move. I look for Mr. Jocketty to be very active near the break and might just include the hated Griffey and the loved Dunn, if suitors can be found.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-27-2008, 04:13 PM
I would have been okay with Hatteberg and Valentin let go, replaced with Bruce and Andy Phillips.

IslandRed
05-27-2008, 04:15 PM
I wasn't surprised. The Reds still need someone to be a reliable PH. It's a material weakness on this club. If Hatteberg had been doing the job then he'd be considered an essential part of the team.

Exactly. Ace pinch-hitter is a crucial job in the National League, even better if he's left-handed. Hatteberg figured to be good at that even if the insurance policy on Votto proved unnecessary. Unfortunately, he wasn't a good pinch-hitter. It happens.

Chip R
05-27-2008, 04:23 PM
Right guy up, wrong guy down.

Hatteberg goes instead of Valentin?

Really?

Really. Hatteberg was as superfluous as one of Krusty the Clown's nipples. Valentin can switch hit, catch and play 1st.

Patrick Bateman
05-27-2008, 04:24 PM
Valentin can switch hit, catch and play 1st.

Honestly, I really have no interest in watching Valentin do any of things.

Jpup
05-27-2008, 04:25 PM
Honestly, I really have no interest in watching Valentin do any of things.

me either. he can't switch hit, catch, or play 1st base with any degree of ability.

bucksfan2
05-27-2008, 04:26 PM
Great player and attitude who played on some very unsuccessful teams. Joey Votto made him expendable, and yet the former GM exercised his option because no one is in the market for a 38-39 YO first baseman who can't hit lefties. Regardless, it was a pleasure watching him on the Reds and I wish him well.

This is the first of many moves IMHO that will be made by Jocketty to get rid of some of the players that the former GM coveted. Look for Ross, Valentin, Gonzalez, Freel, and others to go next. Walt's problem is that all of those, save Javier, have contracts that make them difficult to move. I look for Mr. Jocketty to be very active near the break and might just include the hated Griffey and the loved Dunn, if suitors can be found.

I liked Hatty. I thought he was an average ball player who filled a much needed roll on this team for two years. I was a little disappointed in the way he handled his PH situation. I think he resisted the fact that Votto would take over 1b duties and Hatty would be the PH alternative. I think he used his hitting style as a crutch for not being a successful PH. I would have liked to seen him begin to adapt his hitting style at the end of last season and in spring this year. He held onto the hope of being the starting 1b this year which in return made his value to the reds very little. I would have like to see Patterson because when in the lineup he hurts the reds but I wish Hatty good luck.

WVRedsFan
05-27-2008, 04:27 PM
Really. Hatteberg was as superfluous as one of Krusty the Clown's nipples. Valentin can switch hit, catch and play 1st.

Valentin and even Ross will soon be gone.
This team's makeup was such a mess that you'll see a lot of folks gone before the end of the season. These are the kinds of players that Jocketty won't keep around long.

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 04:28 PM
Sorry to see him go.

The real question is why was he on the 2008 roster at all.

Veteran in case the youngster Votto failed, a lefty, lefty platoon is a part of the poor construction that went into making up this team along with Patterson, Hairston, Bako and Mercker, to begin with, none of which were upgrades going in.

So now the Reds are revisiting their earlier decisions and are backtracking, Hatteberg is going to leave, Bruce will be coming aboard, somewhere along the line Jocketty will unload the others too.

The Baumer
05-27-2008, 04:28 PM
Hatteberg never played so he'll be missed the least.

However, Patterson played too much so he's the one we want to miss the most.

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 04:32 PM
I would have dumped Valentin rather than Hatt. Hatt's career to me shows that his bat will come around, at least to the degree needed to get a reliable pinch hitter.

Hatteberg can only play one position, Valentin can play two, the manager likes to have options so that he can make moves, he is on record saying that.

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 04:34 PM
They already had Valentine as well. They were planning on bringing in a 3rd catcher.

Yes they were planning on bringing in Bako.

OnBaseMachine
05-27-2008, 04:37 PM
Hatteberg the Fall Guy

The Fall Guy is Scott Hatteberg.

Instead of saying, “We made a huge mistake on Corey Patterson,” and cutting him loose, the Reds dumped Hatteberg Tuesday to make room on the roster for Jay Bruce.

Yes, Hatteberg was expendable. Both he and Joey Votto bat lefthanded and who needs two lefthanded first basemen, especially one that is 1 for 17 as a pinch-hitter this year? When Votto doesn’t play first, Javier Valentin (a switch-hitter) can do it.

But the Reds also have a plethora of outfielders. Why keep Patterson? He is hitting .201, his on base average is .243, mostly as a leadoff hitter. He went 0 for 8 in the 18-inning loss to San Diego Sunday. He is 3 for his last 34.

But Hatteberg, a guy who hit nearly .300 for his years with the Reds, up until this year, is the guy to go. One can say, “Well, Hatteberg plays only one position.” Well, Patterson plays only the outfield, so that’s a wash, too.

It is 3:15 Tuesday, 45 minutes before Bruce and GM Walt Jocketty meets ther media.

I was going to take today off after the trip to the west coast and the long ride home Monday, but how often does one gets to see the coming out party of a second J.B., the first, of course, being Johnny Bench.

Did he have this much attention for his debut? Not even close.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

*BaseClogger*
05-27-2008, 04:38 PM
Not much to fuss about? :dunno:

None of these redundant parts are going to be a part of the 2009 Reds, or have much of an impact on a 2008 Reds team that isn't going anywhere...

jojo
05-27-2008, 04:38 PM
This is a no brainer I think.

That said, standing ovation for Hatteberg. :clap:

Chip R
05-27-2008, 04:39 PM
Honestly, I really have no interest in watching Valentin do any of things.


Neither do I but the fact remains he is capable of doing those things and Hatteberg isn't except for playing 1st which they don't need with Votto there.

Kc61
05-27-2008, 04:39 PM
With this move made, what's the next one.

1 -- Resolving the Griffey/Dunn outfield situation with both beeing free agents. I don't think this gets resolved in the short term.

2-- Resolving the catcher and shortstop positions. I don't think this gets resolved in the short term.

3 -- Resolving the Patterson situation. I don't think this gets resolved until some of the wounded come back, Keppinger, Gonzo, thus requiring some guys to get cut.

4 -- Resolving the Belisle/Fogg situation. This should be Jocketty's next venture.

WVRedsFan
05-27-2008, 04:39 PM
Not much to fuss about? :dunno:

None of these redundant parts are going to be a part of the 2009 Reds, or have much of an impact on a 2008 Reds team that isn't going anywhere...

Word

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 04:40 PM
With this move made, what's the next one.

1 -- Resolving the Griffey/Dunn outfield situation with both beeing free agents. I don't think this gets resolved in the short term.

2-- Resolving the catcher and shortstop positions. I don't think this gets resolved in the short term.

3-- Resolving the Belisle/Fogg situation. This should be Jocketty's next venture.

Jocketty indicated that the outfield was a bit crowded and that they will work it out, I expect him to move the excess.

red-in-la
05-27-2008, 04:41 PM
Sadly, the only thing Hatteberg brings to the table at this point is a LH bat who can pinch hit. And while given the small sample of 50 some odd at bats, he hasn't hit. At least Javy can be the third catcher and Patterson can play good defense and run.

It's unfortunate that we couldn't trade him for anything (we still might), but he's the least useful player on the roster right now. As for Scott, I don't think you'll hear him complain about getting a shot to move to a contender.

Hatteburg brings the ability to hit to the table.....basically the Reds got to choose between Patterson and Hatteburg, and choosing Hatteburg is just plain dumb.

I don't know what it is but Cincy has lately become a sports city of "scratch your head".

Kc61
05-27-2008, 04:44 PM
Jocketty indicated that the outfield was a bit crowded and that they will work it out, I expect him to move the excess.


I would expect Patterson to stay until Keppinger/Gonzo come back. Then Hairston and Freel are backup outfielders and Patterson expendable.

I do think they made the right move today. Hatte is a better player than Patterson but really had no role on the team. Patterson can be a defensive replacement.

red-in-la
05-27-2008, 04:44 PM
With this move made, what's the next one.

1 -- Resolving the Griffey/Dunn outfield situation with both beeing free agents. I don't think this gets resolved in the short term.

2-- Resolving the catcher and shortstop positions. I don't think this gets resolved in the short term.

3 -- Resolving the Patterson situation. I don't think this gets resolved until some of the wounded come back, Keppinger, Gonzo, thus requiring some guys to get cut.

4 -- Resolving the Belisle/Fogg situation. This should be Jocketty's next venture.

I think bringing up Bruce has a lot to do with resolving 1, 2, and 3. If Bruce proves he can stick, then the Reds have more flexibility with the OF siuation, escpecially when it comes to Dunn.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-27-2008, 04:46 PM
I would expect Patterson to stay until Keppinger/Gonzo come back. Then Hairston and Freel are backup outfielders and Patterson expendable.

I do think they made the right move today. Hatte is a better player than Patterson but really had no role on the team. Patterson can be a defensive replacement.


I agree on both points.

*BaseClogger*
05-27-2008, 04:46 PM
With this move made, what's the next one.

1 -- Resolving the Griffey/Dunn outfield situation with both beeing free agents. I don't think this gets resolved in the short term.

2-- Resolving the catcher and shortstop positions. I don't think this gets resolved in the short term.

3 -- Resolving the Patterson situation. I don't think this gets resolved until some of the wounded come back, Keppinger, Gonzo, thus requiring some guys to get cut.

4 -- Resolving the Belisle/Fogg situation. This should be Jocketty's next venture.

dare I say... a Griffey injury would actually help clear up issue #1... I know, I know, I have no soul... :devil:

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 04:47 PM
Instead of saying, “We made a huge mistake on Corey Patterson,” and cutting him loose, the Reds dumped Hatteberg Tuesday to make room on the roster for Jay Bruce.


But the Reds also have a plethora of outfielders. Why keep Patterson? He is hitting .201, his on base average is .243, mostly as a leadoff hitter. He went 0 for 8 in the 18-inning loss to San Diego Sunday. He is 3 for his last 34.

But Hatteberg, a guy who hit nearly .300 for his years with the Reds, up until this year, is the guy to go. One can say, “Well, Hatteberg plays only one position.” Well, Patterson plays only the outfield, so that’s a wash, too.

That has been asked and answered redundantly since spring training, and the answer has always been the same, and that reporter knows it with his baiting innuendo.


It is 3:15 Tuesday, 45 minutes before Bruce and GM Walt Jocketty meets ther media.

I was going to take today off after the trip to the west coast and the long ride home Monday, but how often does one gets to see the coming out party of a second J.B., the first, of course, being Johnny Bench.

Did he have this much attention for his debut? Not even close.

Unecessary marketing puffery to have a press party over a player coming up from the minors, that has never taken one swing in the majors. Potentially putting more pressure on a 21 year old kid.

In addition as an after thought.

Setting this kid up with the other players already on board by calling out Bruce as special will not sit well with a few of the personalities on this team, he should have been brought in as just one of the guys trying to help make this team better. Now they will have the public expecting great things from a minor leaguer, if he doesn't set the world on fire, which he shouldn't to start as most rookies have some problems, then the public will view this as some more marketing spin job and spam by the Reds.

TRF
05-27-2008, 04:47 PM
Hatteburg brings the ability to hit to the table.....basically the Reds got to choose between Patterson and Hatteburg, and choosing Hatteburg is just plain dumb.

I don't know what it is but Cincy has lately become a sports city of "scratch your head".

not as a pinch hitter he doesn't.

Tommyjohn25
05-27-2008, 04:48 PM
That said, standing ovation for Hatteberg. :clap:

I second that. :clap:

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 04:53 PM
I would expect Patterson to stay until Keppinger/Gonzo come back. Then Hairston and Freel are backup outfielders and Patterson expendable.

I do think they made the right move today. Hatte is a better player than Patterson but really had no role on the team. Patterson can be a defensive replacement.

As the Juan Castro of the outfield I think that Patterson would be just fine in that role. Still Jocketty is a man that plans to take this team forward and will eventually move the players that are less than upgrades, and that should not have been here to begin with, as evidenced by them not having any real value to other teams, and the lack of demand for their services around the league.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 05:01 PM
Bats off the bench make no sense? Who knew?

In that case I'm certainly glad to be done with those nonsensical benches the Reds had in '99 and '00.

It didn't take a genius to call the fall of Hatteberg in this role.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 05:03 PM
Wait, you mean Krivsky shouldn't be lambasted for failing to forsee Hatteberg's OPS dropping over 300 points from its 2006/2007 levels? Crazy talk.

Let's see:


He's only getting older
He had zero prior success in the bench/PH role
He cannot hit LHPs
Even in his career years of 2006/2007, he performed poorly away from GABP


The 2008 Hatteberg model didn't exactly knock me out of my chair.

M2
05-27-2008, 05:04 PM
It didn't take a genius to call the fall of Hatteberg in this role.

I could have sworn your beef with Hatteberg was that he was left-handed and that made him redundant with Votto around, not that he wasn't redundant enough.

smith288
05-27-2008, 05:06 PM
Honestly, I really have no interest in watching Valentin do any of things.
I saw him and his family at Kings Island's baby water area last summer. Nice dude. But him with his shirt off might make you think twice about never seeing him play those positions again... I know I would rather see him do "switch hit, catch and play 1st." than see him oil himself... *cough*

The Baumer
05-27-2008, 05:07 PM
Setting this kid up with the other players already on board by calling out Bruce as special will not sit well with a few of the personalities on this team, he should have been brought in as just one of the guys trying to help make this team better. Now they will have the public expecting great things from a minor leaguer, if he doesn't set the world on fire, which he shouldn't to start as most rookies have some problems, then the public will view this as some more marketing spin job and spam by the Reds.

Realistically, Bruce is the #1 prospect in the major leagues. Fans and media are going to want a press conference to talk about his promotion.

Also, Bruce has played with all of the guys on the team during Spring Training. They know who he is, have played alongside him, and spent time with him in the clubhouse. He isn't some stranger kid who they have only read about in newspapers. I'm sure he even has some friends on the club who are glad he is finally with the team. If afterall that, someone is still pissy about him coming up, then a press conference isn't going to make or break their opinion about him.

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 05:20 PM
Realistically, Bruce is the #1 prospect in the major leagues. Fans and media are going to want a press conference to talk about his promotion.

Also, Bruce has played with all of the guys on the team during Spring Training. They know who he is, have played alongside him, and spent time with him in the clubhouse. He isn't some stranger kid who they have only read about in newspapers. I'm sure he even has some friends on the club who are glad he is finally with the team. If afterall that, someone is still pissy about him coming up, then a press conference isn't going to make or break their opinion about him.

It is still superfluous marketing puffery, while putting the kid in the limelight, placing potential unrealistic expectations upon his shoulders. I am guessing that if Bruce had been given a choice, he would have passed on the red carpet and special treatment.

The fans want a winner, and that is what they will be getting implied to them if not directly stated in Bruce in this press conference.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 05:24 PM
I could have sworn your beef with Hatteberg was that he was left-handed and that made him redundant with Votto around, not that he wasn't redundant enough.

My beef was that he was old, redundant behind Votto, slow, not a good fielder and had no history as a successful pinch hitter.

Not really the best case scenario bench player.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 05:24 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Phillips up as a RH pinch hitter and getting Pena from the Braves.

SirFelixCat
05-27-2008, 05:25 PM
Great player and attitude who played on some very unsuccessful teams. Joey Votto made him expendable, and yet the former GM exercised his option because no one is in the market for a 38-39 YO first baseman who can't hit lefties. Regardless, it was a pleasure watching him on the Reds and I wish him well.

This is the first of many moves IMHO that will be made by Jocketty to get rid of some of the players that the former GM coveted. Look for Ross, Valentin, Gonzalez, Freel, and others to go next. Walt's problem is that all of those, save Javier, have contracts that make them difficult to move. I look for Mr. Jocketty to be very active near the break and might just include the hated Griffey and the loved Dunn, if suitors can be found.

Spot on, imo. I also wish Hatte well...he was a class act and filled a need the Reds had the last couple of seasons after Casey. I hope he can find a spot on a contender.

Marty and Joe
05-27-2008, 05:26 PM
I also applaud Hatteberg and wish him well. The organization needs to move forward. Hatty wasn't the worst player on the 25, but, had become a man without a role. Good luck Hatty.

Hopefully, Jocketty can snag something for him, but, realistically in this type of situation, the chance of that being something ultimately useful at the major-league level is extremely remote.

Let's keep moving forward.

reds44
05-27-2008, 05:27 PM
Patterson, if used correctly, brings more to the table off the bench then Hatteberg does.

The key phrase is if used correctly.

WVRedsFan
05-27-2008, 05:27 PM
It is still superfluous marketing puffery, while putting the kid in the limelight, placing potential unrealistic expectations upon his shoulders. I am guessing that if Bruce had been given a choice, he would have passed on the red carpet and special treatment.

The fans want a winner, and that is what they will be getting implied to them if not directly stated in Bruce in this press conference.

I totally agree, but this is the Reds Way. I hope and pray the kid does well. If not, the psych wards will be full of Reds fans. Never in the history of the game (at least in Cincinnati) has a player been so ballyhooed prior to coming up to the majors. This little presser will probably boost hopes that might not be realistic, but we need something to boost our spirits, don't we?

redsrule2500
05-27-2008, 05:31 PM
The ONLY reason I don't want Patterson on this team is because I know Dusty will run him out there!!!

The Baumer
05-27-2008, 05:34 PM
It is still superfluous marketing puffery, while putting the kid in the limelight, placing potential unrealistic expectations upon his shoulders. I am guessing that if Bruce had been given a choice, he would have passed on the red carpet and special treatment.

The fans want a winner, and that is what they will be getting implied to them if not directly stated in Bruce in this press conference.

I guess I should have been more clear. This marketing puffery is superfluous, but in the sense that Bruce has been dealing with #1 prospect attention for months and months before the idea of this conference was even conceived. He wasn't a simple aw shucks, country boy in the minors who was unexpectedly thrown into a 4pm national conference. This "puffery" has been going on for a long time and if Bruce breaks down under pressure it won't be because of one press conference. It's a big thing to us because we don't get to follow Jay Bruce around and see what he has to go through, but I'm guessing this is just another stop for him in the Jay Bruce world tour.

Reds1
05-27-2008, 05:35 PM
Hatteberg doesn't make the team better. Patterson at least helps in the defense and pinch running department.

True, but if Votto gets hurts then we take a hit and with Hopper in the background I just see no reason to keep a
.200 hitting leadoff hitter who can play defense. Hopefully a trade is made and we get something, but if not that's another 1 million written off. Hate just doesn't do well in the PH role. Similar to what I would expect Griffey would do. Both need to play to get timing down. Same as votto.
Boy the right handers better look out - Votto, Bruce, Dunn, Griffey

flyer85
05-27-2008, 05:37 PM
Patterson, if used correctly, brings more to the table off the bench then Hatteberg does.which is still almost nothing.

Highlifeman21
05-27-2008, 05:38 PM
Really. Hatteberg was as superfluous as one of Krusty the Clown's nipples. Valentin can switch hit, catch and play 1st.

I'd say he attempts to do all of those, but I'm not sure he can do any of them.

Valentin has always been on par with Juan Castro in my book.

reds44
05-27-2008, 05:39 PM
which is still almost nothing.
Defensive for Griffey while moving Bruce to RF could mean something.

Or if you need a stolen base in the 9th.

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 05:39 PM
I guess I should have been more clear. This marketing puffery is superfluous, but in the sense that Bruce has been dealing with #1 prospect attention for months and months before the idea of this conference was even conceived. He wasn't a simple aw shucks, country boy in the minors who was unexpectedly thrown into a 4pm national conference. This "puffery" has been going on for a long time and if Bruce breaks down under pressure it won't be because of one press conference. It's a big thing to us because we don't get to follow Jay Bruce around and see what he has to go through, but I'm guessing this is just another stop for him in the Jay Bruce world tour.

I understand.

Espn lead in:
Bruce Almighty
Jay Bruce, perhaps baseball's top prospect, debuts in the majors tonight. How will he fare?

M2
05-27-2008, 05:39 PM
My beef was that he was old, redundant behind Votto, slow, not a good fielder and had no history as a successful pinch hitter.

Not really the best case scenario bench player.

In order:

1. So what if he hits

2. So what if he hits

3. So what if he hits

4. Chipper Jones (.427 OPS) and Manny Ramirez (.438 OPS) don't have successful track records as PHs either. It's a dopey statistic. All anyone was asking of Scott Hatteberg was that he hit like Scott Hatteberg.

reds44
05-27-2008, 05:40 PM
In order:

1. So what if he hits

2. So what if he hits

3. So what if he hits

4. Chipper Jones (.427 OPS) and Manny Ramirez (.438 OPS) don't have successful track records as PHs either. It's a dopey statistic. All anyone was asking of Scott Hatteberg was that he hit like Scott Hatteberg.
Chipper Jones and Manny Ramirez are playing everyday. Scott Hatteberg, unless Votto gets hurt, was never going to do that in Cincinnati.

He has been pretty much useless this season, and useless of the bench. I think Patterson offers the Reds more.

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 05:40 PM
Defensive for Griffey while moving Bruce to RF could mean something.

Or if you need a stolen base in the 9th.

Sounds like Freel or Hopper doesn't it?

Patterson SB 8 CS 4

Big Klu
05-27-2008, 05:41 PM
This is a no brainer I think.

That said, standing ovation for Hatteberg. :clap:

Agreed. Scott has been one of my favorite players the last 2-3 years. He has served the Reds with distinction and class. Good luck to him in future endeavors! :clap:

reds44
05-27-2008, 05:41 PM
Sounds like Freel or Hopper doesn't it?
No it doesn't.

Patterson actually plays good defense and actually is good at stealing bases.

Freel and Hopper? Not so much.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 05:42 PM
Defensive for Griffey while moving Bruce to RF could mean something.except it won't happen. Dusty will NEVER take Jr out solely for a defensive replacement, he may double switch him out in very rare circumstances.

reds44
05-27-2008, 05:42 PM
except it won't happen. Dusty will NEVER take Jr out solely for a defensive replacement(he may double switch him out).
Which is exactly why I said if used correctly.

REDREAD
05-27-2008, 05:43 PM
Hatteberg was coming off his best two-year run ever. There's your merit. And PECOTA projected him at .285/.368/.440. Had he delivered on that actual (as opposed to ex post facto pretense) projected performance, he'd be a valued member of this team and somebody else would be getting the boot today.

That would make sense if one of the best Reds' prospects wasn't a 1b.

The Reds had plenty of fallback positions in case Votto washed out. Votto was a good bet to play acceptable.

The only rational scenerio I can see is that Wayne thought the 2008 Reds were a contender and Wayne thought Hat would clearly outperform Votto (enough to make a difference in the pennant race).

I give Wayne credit for being smarter than that. I think Wayne knew Votto was the real deal. I think Wayne thought Hat was a bargain, so he picked him up. It's similiar to a lot of Wayne's impetuous extensions.. not a lot of thought put into them.

Hat was clearly a superfluous piece on a team that had a lot of holes. It was not a wise signing at all. Even if Hat performed at Pecota levels, what does that give you? Makes Votto ride the pine? How does it help the Reds move forward, assuming that Wayne realizes that this team is not a contender.

You look at Hat's age, and thank God that you squeezed two more good years out of him. If some other team signs him and gets the Pecota year out of him, you just shrug your shoulders and use that 2 million on a more pressing need than a PH.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 05:44 PM
Which is exactly why I said if used correctly.but if "used correctly" is not going to happen and we all know it isn't going to happen then it is pointless.

reds44
05-27-2008, 05:45 PM
but if "used correctly" is not going to happen and we all know it isn't going to happen then it is pointless.
I'm not going to blame Walt for keeping who he thinks are the best 25 players on the team.

He didn't hire the manager.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 05:45 PM
In order:

1. So what if he hits

2. So what if he hits

3. So what if he hits

4. Chipper Jones (.427 OPS) and Manny Ramirez (.438 OPS) don't have successful track records as PHs either. It's a dopey statistic. All anyone was asking of Scott Hatteberg was that he hit like Scott Hatteberg.

1) He didn't

2) He didn't

3) He didn't

4) If Chipper or Manny were as easily neutralized as Hatteberg is and they were at the end of their careers, then there would have to be discussion as to their worth as well. But it is hard to compare Hatteberg with Manny/Chipper without laughing.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 05:46 PM
The other issue is that Hatty could have some usefulness in upcoming interleague play as a DH. Team kept him for two months and right when he could possibly provide some return they cut him loose.

REDREAD
05-27-2008, 05:49 PM
But the Reds also have a plethora of outfielders. Why keep Patterson? He is hitting .201, his on base average is .243, mostly as a leadoff hitter. He went 0 for 8 in the 18-inning loss to San Diego Sunday. He is 3 for his last 34.

But Hatteberg, a guy who hit nearly .300 for his years with the Reds, up until this year, is the guy to go. One can say, “Well, Hatteberg plays only one position.” Well, Patterson plays only the outfield, so that’s a wash, too.



Unreal.. Did Hal write this? I expect better from him. It's common sense that Patterson could play LF or RF if the Reds needed him to. Patterson always plays in CF because he's clearly the best CF the Reds have. By Hal's logic, Phillips can only play one position too..

Sorry Hal, I'm sure Hat was your friend, but you are dead wrong on this.. Patterson is more valuable than Hat.

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 05:52 PM
No it doesn't.

Patterson actually plays good defense and actually is good at stealing bases.

Freel and Hopper? Not so much.


Game per position
2001 ChC LF 13
2001 ChC RF 1

Total as LF 13
Total as CF 871
Total as RF 1

Patterson has played one game in RF and that was back in 2001, 13 in LF and that was 2001. Even Griffey had his problems and spoke of them moving to RF.

M2
05-27-2008, 05:52 PM
Chipper Jones and Manny Ramirez are playing everyday. Scott Hatteberg, unless Votto gets hurt, was never going to do that in Cincinnati.

He has been pretty much useless this season, and useless of the bench. I think Patterson offers the Reds more.

And if Chipper and Manny weren't playing every day, I think I'd be all right with them in a PH role despite their PH track records, which is the point. Obviously Hatteberg wasn't going to start with Votto around. So what. The Reds still need bats off the bench and Hatteberg had the best overall hitting track record of any of the bench options.

I agree he's been useless this season and that he should be the one getting the cut, but it's because he hasn't hit (e.g. the very thing he's getting paid to do). Had he been a rough approximation of his usual self (kind of like what PECOTA projected), we'd all be very happy to have him on the 25-man roster and the thought of cutting him would have never entered Walt Jocketty's mind.

BTW, paying attention to a guy's overall track record has worked out pretty well when it comes to Ryan Freel.

reds44
05-27-2008, 05:53 PM
Game per position
2001 ChC LF 13
2001 ChC RF 1

Total as LF 13
Total as CF 871
Total as RF 1

Patterson has played one game in RF and that was back in 2001, 13 in LF and that was 2001. Even Griffey had his problems and spoke of them moving to RF.
Bruce would move to RF with Patterson playing CF.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 05:55 PM
And if Chipper and Manny weren't playing every day, I think I'd be all right with them in a PH role despite their PH track records, which is the point. Obviously Hatteberg wasn't going to start with Votto around. So what. The Reds still need bats off the bench and Hatteberg had the best overall hitting track record of any of the bench options.

I agree he's been useless this season and that he should be the one getting the cut, but it's because he hasn't hit (e.g. the very thing he's getting paid to do). Had he been a rough approximation of his usual self (kind of like what PECOTA projected), we'd all be very happy to have him on the 25-man roster and the thought of cutting him would have never entered Walt Jocketty's mind.

BTW, paying attention to a guy's overall track record has worked out pretty well when it comes to Ryan Freel.

If Manny melted like the Wicked Witch away from GABP and against LHPs, then I would think twice about having him on the bench.

But again, it is ridiculous to compare future HOFers to Scott Hatteberg.

M2
05-27-2008, 05:56 PM
1) He didn't

2) He didn't

3) He didn't

4) If Chipper or Manny were as easily neutralized as Hatteberg is and they were at the end of their careers, then there would have to be discussion as to their worth as well. But it is hard to compare Hatteberg with Manny/Chipper without laughing.

1. Which is the point

2. Which is the point

3. Which is the point

4. Yes, it's hard to compare dopey small samples with a player's overall ability. Albert Pujols has an ISOp of .000 as a PH.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 05:58 PM
The other issue is that Hatty could have some usefulness in upcoming interleague play as a DH. Team kept him for two months and right when he could possibly provide some return they cut him loose.

Hatte played like Castro on the road in his last 2 seasons.

The DH only comes into play on the road.

Not a good thing.

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 05:58 PM
Bruce would move to RF with Patterson playing CF.

Okay, as long as Patterson is the Juan Castro of the centerfield, and for Sunday specials batting down in the order.

REDREAD
05-27-2008, 05:59 PM
I agree he's been useless this season and that he should be the one getting the cut, but it's because he hasn't hit (e.g. the very thing he's getting paid to do). Had he been a rough approximation of his usual self (kind of like what PECOTA projected), we'd all be very happy to have him on the 25-man roster and the thought of cutting him would have never entered Walt Jocketty's mind.
.

Entering the season, this was the bench (IIRC)

Hat
Valentine
Bako
Castro
Freel
?? Maybe Hopper was there instead of one of the catchers, initially (did Ross start the season on the DL)

That's a horrible bench, no dimension at all. Of course, not immediately cutting Castro was the biggest mistake, but it's a lot harder to carry a guy like Hat. The Reds would've been better served getting an OF that could hit (preferably LH) or an infielder that could actually play defense.

Hat was part of the problem. Now if the Reds' bench had a Michael Tucker and an infielder that could actually field, and/or a RH bat, then it's easier to justify carrying Hat.. but the bench was putrid. No room for a one dimensional player like Hat. Since Wayne already "locked himself" into everyone but Bako, it made no sense to extend Hat. Wayne didn't really look at the big picture when assembling his bench.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 06:01 PM
Hatte played like Castro on the road in his last 2 seasons.

The DH only comes into play on the road.

Not a good thing.His OPS on the road(~720) was still better than Patterson ... I will take his patient approach anytime over the likes of Patterson, Freel, Hopper, Castro, Hairston, etc. It was that patience that generally made him ill-suited to be a pinch hitter.

M2
05-27-2008, 06:02 PM
If Manny melted like the Wicked Witch away from GABP and against LHPs, then I would think twice about having him on the bench.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but Hatteberg would have been playing half his games in the GAB, no? So the Reds wouldn't have wanted a guy who could hit well in their home park because ...?

And for the record, Hattberg had a .351 OB away from the GAB in his first two seasons with the team. I'd take that from a PH without complaint.

As for the LH thing, golly, I just can't think of any ways to spot a bench player's usage pattern so that he would mostly face RHPs. If only RHPs threw something on the order of 70% of all the innings in the game of baseball, then maybe a bench player who hits RHPs might be a useful thing to have around.

reds44
05-27-2008, 06:03 PM
His OPS on the road(~720) was still better than Patterson ... I will take his patient approach anytime over the likes of Patterson, Freel, Hopper, Castro, Hairston, etc. It was that patience that generally made him ill-suited to be a pinch hitter.
And if that's all he is going to be doing then what is the point of having him on the team?

I really liked Scott Hatteberg as a player and I was a supporter of him leading off the last two years. Him off the bench just doesn't mesh well. It's not what his skill set is made for.

I'm just surprised the Reds couldn't deal him.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 06:06 PM
And if that's all he is going to be doing then what is the point of having him on the team?and what is the point of having a guy on the team who is really only suited to be a pinch runner? The Reds are loaded with chaff. Hatty should have never been on the team but they kept around for two months only to cut him loose right when they likely would have gotten some return. There will be no return for having Corey Patterson this club, or Bako(his little spurt will soon be a distant memory) for the remainder of the season.

KronoRed
05-27-2008, 06:07 PM
Hat is worse than Patterson.

Defensively sure, off the bench as a bat I think even struggling Hat has a better shot of turning it around then Patterson who really has never been good at the plate.

guttle11
05-27-2008, 06:07 PM
I'm just surprised the Reds couldn't deal him.

I'm not. Other GMs know what time it is. They see Hatteberg riding the pine and they know he's going to be available at some point. And with him barely getting one or two ABs a week, his value will not rise. If a GM decides he would like Hatteberg for the stretch run, he either waits for the Reds to cut him loose or make a last minute deadline deal for a bag of peanuts.

Hatteberg will have the opportunity to play for another MLB team in the near future. Whether he ultimately signs on the dotted line is something I'd doubt at this point.

reds44
05-27-2008, 06:08 PM
and what is the point of having a guy on the team who is really only suited to be a pinch runner? The Reds are loaded with chaff. Hatty should have never been on the team but they kept around for two months only to cut him loose right when they likely would have gotten some return. There will be no return for having Corey Patterson this club, or Bako(his little spurt will soon be a distant memory) for the remainder of the season.
I don't think it's Patterson vs. Hatteberg as much as it is Hatteberg vs. Valentin/Bako.

Patterson has a place on the roster if he is used correctly.

flyer85
05-27-2008, 06:09 PM
Patterson has a place on the roster if he is used correctly.which won't happen so it is moot.

reds44
05-27-2008, 06:10 PM
which won't happen so it is moot.
Then fire the manager.

Yes I know that won't happen, but again I'm not going to blame Walt for keeping who he thinks brings more value to the club.

M2
05-27-2008, 06:11 PM
That's a horrible bench, no dimension at all.

So your prescription for that "horrible bench" would have been to cast aside the guy with the best track record at the plate?

I don't recall you being handy during the offseason with any suggestions about who'd make a better hitter off the bench than Hatteberg.

Spring~Fields
05-27-2008, 06:12 PM
Entering the season, this was the bench (IIRC)

Hat
Valentine
Bako
Castro
Freel
?? Maybe Hopper was there instead of one of the catchers, initially (did Ross start the season on the DL)

Yes, and Ross complained, seeing the writing on the wall with Bako, he did not feel that he needed the DL or rehab assignments.


That's a horrible bench, no dimension at all. Of course, not immediately cutting Castro was the biggest mistake, but it's a lot harder to carry a guy like Hat. The Reds would've been better served getting an OF that could hit (preferably LH) or an infielder that could actually play defense.

They had one in Jay Bruce that could "actually play defense and hit left handed and left handed pitching. vs Left .389 .386 .685 1.071 Baker just underestimated him in his drive to get Patterson on the team. Plus this input from the manager, "The Reds are optimistic that Jay Bruce will be ready to play in a few days following Sunday's quad injury.

Manager Dusty Baker think Bruce's leg problems could be an isue down the line, though. "One thing that makes us a little wary is he’s had this a couple of times," Baker said. "At 20 years old, we’ve got to find a way to stop this. It’s rare that you have them this young, which makes you a little apprehensive about him as the center fielder. That’s a lot of running."
source: Enquirer


Hat was part of the problem. Now if the Reds' bench had a Michael Tucker and an infielder that could actually field, and/or a RH bat, then it's easier to justify carrying Hat.. but the bench was putrid. No room for a one dimensional player like Hat.

Isn't Patterson a one dimensional defensive player that cannot hit? Why was he leading off again? ;)

Sunday, February 17, 2008
Dusty talks to Lofton, Patterson

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/2008/02/dusty-talks-to-lofton-patterson.asp

flyer85
05-27-2008, 06:13 PM
Isn't Patterson a one dimensional defensive player that cannot hit? Why was he leading off again? ;)he can run like the wind ... or was it break the wind. Well, something like that.

jojo
05-27-2008, 06:44 PM
I guess I don't see "pinch hitting" as a skill per se and often pitch hitting splits suffer from sample size issues which muddy the interpretation. Most often guys do worse as a pinch hitter than as a regular for many reasons. When announcers wax poetic about a guy being valuable because he's an exceptional pinch hitter, it should be treated with skepticism IMHO. Basically you're a good pinch hitter because you can't really hit well enough to be a regular (or you can hit but you're blocked to the bench by a superior player) and you don't field well enough to be a defensive replacement. In other words, it's announcer speak (myth)....

Cedric
05-27-2008, 06:47 PM
I guess I don't see "pinch hitting" as a skill per se and often pitch hitting splits suffer from sample size issues which muddy the interpretation. Most often guys do worse as a pinch hitter than as a regular for many reasons. When announcers wax poetic about a guy being valuable because he's an exceptional pinch hitter, it should be treated with skepticism IMHO. Basically you're a good pinch hitter because you can't really hit well enough to be a regular (or you can hit but you're blocked to the bench by a superior player) and you don't field well enough to be a defensive replacement. In other words, it's announcer speak (myth)....

Maybe. But I still liked seeing Mark Sweeney in the ninth back in 99. If I remember correctly he was amazing that year.

jojo
05-27-2008, 06:59 PM
Maybe. But I still liked seeing Mark Sweeney in the ninth back in 99. If I remember correctly he was amazing that year.

In 1999, he did this in 31 AB with the Reds: .355/.429/.645.

11larkin11
05-27-2008, 07:09 PM
Can we all agree? When Hop returns, DFA Valentin and Patterson and bring back Hop and bring up Andy Phillips.

jojo
05-27-2008, 07:19 PM
Can we all agree? When Hop returns, DFA Valentin and Patterson and bring back Hop and bring up Andy Phillips.

I have no desire to see Andy Phillips in a Reds uni... Id take Patterson over Hopper/Phillips.

RedsManRick
05-27-2008, 07:22 PM
Maybe I'm missing the point, but why does having plate discipline make one a poor pinch hitter? Pinch hitters aren't brought in specifically to get hits -- they are typically brought in to have a better chance at avoiding an out. It is usually a defensive measure.

The larger point is that Hatteberg was the player who provided the least value to the Reds. His value only lay in his bat as a pinch hitter against righties at home. He can't catch, as Valentin can (nominally). He can't play a plus OF, nor run well, as CPatt can. This wasn't a tough call.

Kc61
05-27-2008, 07:23 PM
Defensively sure, off the bench as a bat I think even struggling Hat has a better shot of turning it around then Patterson who really has never been good at the plate.

Aren't people tired of debating guys like Castro -- or Hatteberg/Patterson as bench players? All the energy devoted to this is misplaced IMO. They don't play much and they don't make that much difference to the outcome of the season.

This is a great day for Reds fans. They added a major starting player. That's what matters.

Fans' energy should now be devoted to getting a big time righty bat; a catcher; figuring out shortstop; more and more pitching. We all know that Patterson is now principally a defensive substitute. Not a big deal one way or the other.

buckeyenut
05-27-2008, 07:30 PM
Those kind of moves happen all the time. Dunn should be subbed for.

If the $46MM man doesn't blow the game, then none of this matters.
No, Dunn should not be subbed for. Patterson should come in at CF and Bruce should slide to RF, not LF.

buckeyenut
05-27-2008, 07:32 PM
It's the right move. Hat is probably the least valuable bench guy. Can only play 1b and can't pinch hit. No point in carrying him. Another dumb extension by Wayne. I hope Cast is ready to get out the Heinz 57 sauce to eat another contract.Completely disagree. This was the only logical move at the time. You cannot hold the fact that Votto actually turned out and that Hatte got off to a slow start and the market downturned against Krivsky.

Hatteburg when signed was at worst a LH bat off the bench and best case (for him) was your starting 1B. For less than 2M, you pick up that option EVERY SINGLE TIME. Decisions are made at a point in time with incomplete information. The only way this decision doesn't make sense is retroactively with complete understanding of how everything was going to work out.

WVRedsFan
05-27-2008, 07:33 PM
Can we all agree? When Hop returns, DFA Valentin and Patterson and bring back Hop and bring up Andy Phillips.
No.

"Hop" should stay in AAA where he belongs. Phillips should never see the day he wears a Reds uniform as it stands now. DFAing Patterson brings along with it a $3 million cost (thanks, Wayne). Valentin should go no matter what.

Players like Norris Hopper, Javier Valentin and Corey Patterson have led this team to 8 consecutive (I'm counting 2008) losing seasons. Why go down that same road?

AmarilloRed
05-27-2008, 08:04 PM
Scott Hatteberg did a good job for the Reds in 2006-2007 given his limitations, but he could not adjust from starting at first base to pinch-hitting. He might still be on the roster if he was able to maintain his .280 BA as a pinch-hitter. It is a long shot that he will be able to find a starting job elsewhere, so I believe he might just decide to enter retirement. I appreciate all he did the last 2 years, but it was a mistake by Wayne to pick up that option.

Chip R
05-27-2008, 08:07 PM
Maybe I'm missing the point, but why does having plate discipline make one a poor pinch hitter? Pinch hitters aren't brought in specifically to get hits -- they are typically brought in to have a better chance at avoiding an out. It is usually a defensive measure.


I get the whole avoiding an out thing and if a pinch hitter goes up there and walks, that's fine. But it seems that a valuable pinch hitter is one that can drive that runner home from 2nd or 3rd with a base hit rather than walk.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 09:10 PM
I get the whole avoiding an out thing and if a pinch hitter goes up there and walks, that's fine. But it seems that a valuable pinch hitter is one that can drive that runner home from 2nd or 3rd with a base hit rather than walk.

Exactly.

GAC
05-27-2008, 09:21 PM
I liked Hatte. He was cheap, and did a good job for the Reds while he was here. But they did the right thing in releasing him. He'll be picked up quick IMO.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 09:27 PM
So your prescription for that "horrible bench" would have been to cast aside the guy with the best track record at the plate?

I don't recall you being handy during the offseason with any suggestions about who'd make a better hitter off the bench than Hatteberg.

I don't think anyone needed to look very far.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080526&content_id=2777118&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

jojo
05-27-2008, 09:44 PM
I get the whole avoiding an out thing and if a pinch hitter goes up there and walks, that's fine. But it seems that a valuable pinch hitter is one that can drive that runner home from 2nd or 3rd with a base hit rather than walk.

To me a valuable pinch hitter is one that offers a significantly greater chance of success versus the guy he's replacing either because of platoon splits or simply because the guy he's replacing is a much poorer hitter in general. With that caveat the job description of a pinch hitter is essentially no different than that of any other hitter.

Rounding Third
05-27-2008, 10:31 PM
I don't think anyone needed to look very far.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080526&content_id=2777118&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

But wouldn't that of cost the Reds like $1MM (Castro)? They can't just go around throwing away a million dollars (Hatte) or more than that (Stanton)! This is a team that needs to control its spending and not waste it on players that aren't needed (Patterson).

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 10:53 PM
But wouldn't that of cost the Reds like $1MM (Castro)? They can't just go around throwing away a million dollars (Hatte) or more than that (Stanton)! This is a team that needs to control its spending and not waste it on players that aren't needed (Patterson).

:confused:

wheels
05-27-2008, 11:25 PM
No.

"Hop" should stay in AAA where he belongs. Phillips should never see the day he wears a Reds uniform as it stands now. DFAing Patterson brings along with it a $3 million cost (thanks, Wayne). Valentin should go no matter what.

Players like Norris Hopper, Javier Valentin and Corey Patterson have led this team to 8 consecutive (I'm counting 2008) losing seasons. Why go down that same road?


Totally.

M2
05-27-2008, 11:38 PM
I don't think anyone needed to look very far.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080526&content_id=2777118&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Yeah, because the guy with the sub-.700 OPS the previous two seasons is obviously the keeper.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 11:41 PM
Yeah, because the guy with the sub-.700 OPS the previous two seasons is obviously the keeper.

From what I understand Wayne had this amazing knack to pick winners off the trash heap and turn them into gold.

Bottom line is that keeping Hatteberg was a poor move.

M2
05-27-2008, 11:50 PM
Bottom line is that keeping Hatteberg was a poor move.

Bottom line is plenty of moves don't work out, but what you're doing is advocating for good decisions by accident.

edabbs44
05-27-2008, 11:58 PM
Bottom line is plenty of moves don't work out, but what you're doing is advocating for good decisions by accident.

Just a difference of opinion because personally I thought it was a bad decision at the time.

You are correct, however, as plenty of moves don't work out. Even good ones. IMO, this isn't an example of that.

mbgrayson
05-28-2008, 10:32 AM
Thank you Scott Hatteberg for a couple nice seasons. For the record, here are his numbers with the Reds:

2006: .289/.389/.436 for an OPS of .825 in 530 PAs.
2007: .310/.394/.474 for an OPS of .868 in 410 PAs.
2008: .173/.262/.231 for an OPS of .493 in 59 PAs.

As others have mentioned, he had a dramatic drop in plate appearances this year with the increased role of Joey Votto. His batting average is at least partly the result of small sample size. He never played enough to get locked in. (Note Hatteberg's 59 plate appearances versus Corey Patterson having 153 chances. In almost 100 less appearances, Hatteberg has 7 walks, Patterson has 8).

Hatteberg's BABIP(batting average on balls in play) this year was down to .200 from .323 last year. His line drive rate also has dropped a little from 23.2% to 19.1%. His K rate climbed from 9.7% to 13.5%. He has typically hit right handers much better than lefties, to the tune of +.100 batting average.

I am convinced that Scott Hatteberg, at age 38, is still a useful ball player. When paired with a decent right handed hitter, someone like Jeff Conine, and played regularly, he could still hit .280 to .300 and get on base at a .375 clip.

I attribute his failure this year partly to the rise of Joey Votto (which is a good thing), and partly to being used in a role for which he was not equipped.

I hope that Scott lands on his feet and can stay in baseball for a few more years. As others have noted, he might make a very good coach. Good luck!

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 10:51 AM
Defensively sure, off the bench as a bat I think even struggling Hat has a better shot of turning it around then Patterson who really has never been good at the plate.

Patterson has value as a defensive replacement and pinch runner.
Granted, that doesn't exactly make him an MVP or even my first choice as a bench player.

What does Hat do well off the bench? He can play 1b (which is covered by several other players on this team).. He can't hit.

Hat has to hit much better than he has been in order to be worth keeping. Patterson can do stuff other than hitting which makes him worth keeping.

Now if Hat was able to hit as a pinch hitter, then there's a debate about which one is worth keeping, but since Hat can't hit as a PH, it's no contest.

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 11:02 AM
So your prescription for that "horrible bench" would have been to cast aside the guy with the best track record at the plate?

I don't recall you being handy during the offseason with any suggestions about who'd make a better hitter off the bench than Hatteberg.

I admit that during the offseason, I didn't know that Hat would adapt so poorly to pinch hitting. Hat himself admitted he doesn't do it well. That should've been a conversation Wayne had with Hat before picking up the option. Sit Hat down, tell him that Votto is going to be the full time starter next year. Ask Hat if he'd be happy being a LH pinch hitter. Because I get the impression that Hat was not happy with his reduced role. I'm sure he tried to perform when he was called upon to pinch hit, but his heart clearly wasn't in it. This is part of the human factor. Someone that is unhappy (or thinks he got screwed) at their job is a risk not to perform as well.

There wasn't a whole lot of room for suggestions about the bench due to Wayne's poor planning in previous years. We were locked in on Castro, Valentine, and Freel. Keppinger deserved a spot. So, that leaves one spot left.. but that spot was given to Hat.. So we only had one bench slot left. I actually agree that Bako was a worthy choice, just because our catching was so bad. Ideally, the Reds would've not signed Hat or gotten rid of Valentine (having both is redundant).. Of course, ideally, Castro would've never been extended as well. Again, this is a big weakness Wayne had. He would haphazardly extend people. Wayne would often fail to look at the big picture and see what his team actually needed. He thought Hat and Castro were good guys or bargains (I'm guessing), so they get roster spots, regardless of the team's needs. In fact, Brandon Harris was cast aside a few years ago to make room for Castro. Cantu was cast aside for Hat (although Cantu might not have worked out as a bench player either, I concede that.. but he was at least a younger guy that might improve, instead of an older guy on the decline).

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 11:06 AM
They had one in Jay Bruce that could "actually play defense and hit left handed and left handed pitching. vs Left .389 .386 .685 1.071 Baker just underestimated him in his drive to get Patterson on the team. Plus this input from the manager, "The Reds are optimistic that Jay Bruce will be ready to play in a few days following Sunday's quad injury.

You have a good point, but it's the GM's job to figure out the 25 man roster.
Wayne brought Patterson in. Wayne kept Bruce at AAA. I have no idea if Bruce's leg injury in spring training was legit or not, but I think he had some kind of injury. Now maybe the Reds used that as an excuse to send him to AAA.. But the bottom line is that the GM sets the roster. Dusty didn't stop Walt from bringing up Bruce, so I don't see how he could've stopped Wayne.
Likewise, Walt has brought up Hairston (instead of Castro) and Bray (instead of Coffey). Wayne could've made those moves as well.








Isn't Patterson a one dimensional defensive player that cannot hit? Why was he leading off again? ;)


Yeah, I agree Patterson shouldn't lead off. that's a legit beef against Dusty.

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 11:16 AM
Completely disagree. This was the only logical move at the time. You cannot hold the fact that Votto actually turned out and that Hatte got off to a slow start and the market downturned against Krivsky.

First of all..what do you think the best case scenerio would be for the Reds trading Hat.. What kind of player do you think someone would give up for him? Let's face it, a marginal prospect at best. Doesn't it make more sense to take Hat's salary and dump it in the draft if you want to use those resources to get young talent. It has nothing to do with market suddenly dying. Was it three years ago that Hat was sitting at home and out of a job, when Wayne called? In other words, if the Reds hadn't called, Hat may have been out of work 3 years ago.. Why would Wayne expect there to suddenly be more interest in Hat 3 years later? Logically, there'd be much less interest.

Also, Wayne jumped in and picked up Hat's option right after the season ended. So he didn't give himself any time to gauge the market.

Some clubs are able to sign veterans and then flip them for prospects in July. If the Reds want to do that strategy, a guy like Hat is the wrong person to do it with. Grab a reliever that might be a setup guy. Grab a starting pitcher. Grab the kind of talent that teams normally want at the deadline. An old 1b with no power is not the type of guy that contenders trade for in July.








Hatteburg when signed was at worst a LH bat off the bench and best case (for him) was your starting 1B. For less than 2M, you pick up that option EVERY SINGLE TIME. Decisions are made at a point in time with incomplete information. The only way this decision doesn't make sense is retroactively with complete understanding of how everything was going to work out.

But the Reds had a lot of information about Votto. If Votto was acquired via trade after Hat was signed, then I could understand the mistake. But surely, the Reds had planned to start Votto and let him grow. Votto was one of Wayne's untouchables in trade talks this past winter (supposedly, according to the press). Looks like the Reds made a commitment to Votto already.

Given the fact that the bench already was almost full of limited players (Valentine, Castro), signing Hat was not a good idea.. On a different bench composition or in the AL, maybe Hat makes sense.

klw
05-28-2008, 01:15 PM
Newsday reporting that the Mets had some interest in Hatteberg but not as a trade but as a post waiver pickup http://blogs.trb.com/sports/baseball/blog/2008/05/the_alleged_difficulty_of_the.html

Gammons reported the same last night on Baseball Tonight and Gammons indicated that the Mariners would have some interest as well.

Will M
05-29-2008, 12:56 PM
Newsday reporting that the Mets had some interest in Hatteberg but not as a trade but as a post waiver pickup http://blogs.trb.com/sports/baseball/blog/2008/05/the_alleged_difficulty_of_the.html

Gammons reported the same last night on Baseball Tonight and Gammons indicated that the Mariners would have some interest as well.

FYI-today from MLB trade rumors:

Mets, Mariners Interested In Hatteberg
THURSDAY: MLB.com's Marty Noble says the Mets have already discussed Hatteberg internally. They could move quickly to sign him after he clears waivers, but Marlon Anderson's injury is a factor here.

Additionally, the Mariners are "actively pursuing" Hatteberg. The Ms actually started Miguel Cairo at first last night.

WEDNESDAY: According to Ken Davidoff of Newsday, "the Mets have some, but only some" interest in recently-designated first baseman Scott Hatteberg. Davidoff says the Mets will wait until Hatteberg clears waivers and then perhaps see if Hatteberg is open to a minor league deal.

Hatteberg is a left-handed hitter who succeeds against righties (as is often the case). Carlos Delgado hasn't succeeded against anyone this year, but previously he had the same splits as Hatteberg. The two don't match up for a platoon, but it'd make sense for the Mets to keep Hatteberg at Triple A until they decide whether to cut Delgado (.215/.294/.387 in 204 PAs).

Raisor
05-29-2008, 01:01 PM
Hatteberg to the Mariners, in return the M's pay Junior's salary the rest of the season.

jojo
05-29-2008, 03:33 PM
Hatteberg to the Mariners, in return the M's pay Junior's salary the rest of the season.

I was thinking Hatteberg to the Ms in return for Vidro and Sexson but then I remembered that I like the Reds too..... :cool:

Unassisted
05-29-2008, 07:07 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/content/printer_friendly/nym/y2008/m05/d29/c2793213.jsp


Mets may pursue veteran Hatteberg
05/29/2008 9:42 AM ET
By Marty Noble / MLB.com

NEW YORK -- Should the Mets determine their primary left-handed pinch-hitter Marlon Anderson will require an extended assignment to the disabled list, they may move to add veteran Scott Hatteberg, who was designated for assignment by the Reds on Tuesday.

The club already has discussed the possibility, and if Hatteberg clears waivers, it could act quickly.

The Reds moved Hatteberg to accommodate prospect Jay Bruce on their big league roster. They have 10 days to trade, waive or release Hatteberg, a 14-year veteran first baseman. Hatteberg was a primary figure in the book "Moneyball: The Art of Winning an Unfair Game" because of his patient approach as a batter.

The emergence of two prospects, Bruce and Joey Votto, had made Hatteberg, 38, a reserve player with the Reds. He was batting .173 with a .262 on-base average and .231 slugging percentage in 61 plate appearances.

He was in his third season with the Reds, having played previously with the Red Sox and A's, beginning in 1995.

Anderson, a favorite of Mets manager Willie Randolph, tore a muscle in his left leg running the bases on Friday. On Wednesday, he said he had torn the muscle off the bone, but that he had been told the injury might not require an extended recovery period.

"They told me it's not an important muscle," Anderson said. "It doesn't have to be repaired. You don't need it. It's the muscle they'll take and use to replace a ligament in your knee. So it's not as bad as it sounds."

mth123
06-04-2008, 06:34 AM
Hatte's 10 Days are about up. Here is a question.

With Griffey hurting and Freel now out, can the Reds choose to reinstate Hatte to the roster?

There really is no one in AAA that I would like to see called up at this point. If Griffey is really ailing, an option could be to stick Votto in RF and play Hatte at 1B. The defense would really be no worse than with Griffey out there and Votto at 1B (but it wouldn't be any better either).

Its not really an ideal solution, but it works at least until Keppinger is ready. Besides, in a couple weeks the Reds will need a DH for a 9 day stretch and Hatte could be of some use there as well (though I hope by then we have Kepp at SS, Hairston in RF and Griffey at DH).

I don't really think Hatte fits well on this roster, but he is a better option than anyone at AAA right now. I could live with Patterson or Dickerson as a bench guy I suppose.

I also think its possible the team goes with 13 pitchers and adds no position players and just uses Freel's spot for Bailey.

Interested in what everyone thinks. Is this move even allowed within the rules (I think so) and given the change in the situation, would you like to have Hatte back?

LoganBuck
06-04-2008, 08:22 AM
Hatte's 10 Days are about up. Here is a question.

With Griffey hurting and Freel now out, can the Reds choose to reinstate Hatte to the roster?

There really is no one in AAA that I would like to see called up at this point. If Griffey is really ailing, an option could be to stick Votto in RF and play Hatte at 1B. The defense would really be no worse than with Griffey out there and Votto at 1B (but it wouldn't be any better either).

Its not really an ideal solution, but it works at least until Keppinger is ready. Besides, in a couple weeks the Reds will need a DH for a 9 day stretch and Hatte could be of some use there as well (though I hope by then we have Kepp at SS, Hairston in RF and Griffey at DH).

I don't really think Hatte fits well on this roster, but he is a better option than anyone at AAA right now. I could live with Patterson or Dickerson as a bench guy I suppose.

I also think its possible the team goes with 13 pitchers and adds no position players and just uses Freel's spot for Bailey.

Interested in what everyone thinks. Is this move even allowed within the rules (I think so) and given the change in the situation, would you like to have Hatte back?

Hatte would have to accept an outright assignment to Louisville. The Reds would have to clear a 40 man spot, and they may have to wait a certain number of days once he has been outrighted, (not sure on the last part) to call him back.

REDREAD
06-04-2008, 11:40 AM
Hatte's 10 Days are about up. Here is a question.

With Griffey hurting and Freel now out, can the Reds choose to reinstate Hatte to the roster?



IMO, there's probably bad feelings resulting from Hat being DFAed. I doubt he has much interest in coming back until one of the OF gets better. He gets paid the same regardless. From his point of view, the Reds screwed him over, so I doubt he'd go along with that plan.

redsmetz
06-04-2008, 11:44 AM
IMO, there's probably bad feelings resulting from Hat being DFAed. I doubt he has much interest in coming back until one of the OF gets better. He gets paid the same regardless. From his point of view, the Reds screwed him over, so I doubt he'd go along with that plan.

You're basing this on what? I suspect that Hatteberg knows that DFA'ing like this is part of the game at this stage in his career. I'm unaware of the rules, but I can't see Hatteberg coming back being an option as we need a outfielder, not a 1st baseman anyway. But it doesn't strike me as being in Scott's nature to hold a grudge or feel as if he'd been "screwed over". But that's just a guess on my part.

Sea Ray
06-10-2008, 06:32 PM
Anyone surprised that Hat has not signed with anyone? The Reds sure overestimated his value. Looks like no one even wants him for minimum wage.

Joseph
06-10-2008, 06:36 PM
Anyone surprised that Hat has not signed with anyone? The Reds sure overestimated his value. Looks like no one even wants him for minimum wage.

Actually I am surprised. While he wasn't a fit here, I'm shocked for league minimum some contender with a need hasn't snatched him up.

WVRedsFan
06-10-2008, 06:40 PM
Anyone surprised that Hat has not signed with anyone? The Reds sure overestimated his value. Looks like no one even wants him for minimum wage.

There wasm't any interest in him 3 years ago when we originally acquired him. He was valued by fans and Wayne Krivsky. That's all. The fact that he wasn't claimed does not surprise me one bit. I wish someone had because he seems like a model player.

There are many more on this team like Hatt. We overpay them or give them multi-year contracts, but to the outside world, no one wants them.