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View Full Version : Did the Reds get screwed by Sarasota?



Matt700wlw
05-28-2008, 02:13 PM
http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20080528/NEWS/805280516/-1/newssitemap

flyer85
05-28-2008, 02:15 PM
I'm not sured "screwed" is the appropriate word but without a doubt they are willing to put a lot more money on the table for the Red Sox than they were for the Reds.

JaxRed
05-28-2008, 02:17 PM
Yep.... and the Reds in their rush to judgment, screwed their fans.... just think if THIS was a shared facility.

red-in-la
05-28-2008, 02:18 PM
The extra money is being paid for by a "hotel bed tax."

Everybody knows that Bostonians sleep a lot more than Cincinnatians do. :eek:

I think the belief is that they will sell out each and every game that Boston plays in a 12,000 seat stadium.

red-in-la
05-28-2008, 02:19 PM
Yep.... and the Reds in their rush to judgment, screwed their fans.... just think if THIS was a shared facility.

Well, I have never been to Florida for a Reds game.....but I will go to many Reds games in Arizona.....so I will hold up my end.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 02:24 PM
Yep.... and the Reds in their rush to judgment, screwed their fans.... if Sarasota had put a deal anything like this on the table for the Reds they wouldn't be leaving. I think the point is that Sarasota really wasn't all that interested in keeping the Reds.

red-in-la
05-28-2008, 02:26 PM
if Sarasota had put a deal anything like this on the table for the Reds they wouldn't be leaving. I think the point is that Sarasota really wasn't all that interested in keeping the Reds.

If Cincinnati were looking for a baseball team, and you heard they were talking to the Pirates and the Red Sox, which would you root for?

redsrule2500
05-28-2008, 02:28 PM
If Cincinnati were looking for a baseball team, and you heard they were talking to the Pirates and the Red Sox, which would you root for?

Pirates

red-in-la
05-28-2008, 02:32 PM
Pirates

Homer :D

Unassisted
05-28-2008, 02:38 PM
Maybe the Reds thought they were the ones doing the jilting, while Sarasota was secretly letting the relationship die of neglect with an eye toward someone better coming along?

Visitor taxes are the new "cool" way to pay for sports facilities without angering voters. Pretty soon, no one will be able to afford to rent hotel rooms and vehicles when they travel, thanks to all of the stadiums and arenas those purchases are subsidizing. If anyone got the shaft in this deal it's the people who'll no longer be able to afford to visit Sarasota.

Sea Ray
05-28-2008, 02:39 PM
Nothing surprising here. This is politics as usual. Typically after a team "calls a city's bluff" and actually leaves, the city offers much more money to lure a new team there. In the NFL we saw it over and over with Cleveland, Houston and St Louis. Add to that the fact that the Red Sox sell out most if not all their games in City of Palms Park and it all makes sense. If this goes through expect City of Palms and Collier County to offer more to lure another team than they did to keep the Red Sox.

I'll also add that I don't think John Allen was a good negotiator representing the Reds either. I think he could have handled Sarasota better and it should also be noted that the Bengals got a much better deal from Hamilton County than the Reds did.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 02:41 PM
it should also be noted that the Bengals got a much better deal from Hamilton County than the Reds did.because the Bengals actually had some leverage(Baltimore, etc) while the Reds had no leverage, they weren't going anywhere.

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 02:45 PM
"The initial response is that the Red Sox would bring more of an impact," said Virginia Haley, president of the Sarasota Convention & Visitors Bureau. "So it seems like there would be more consideration for the Red Sox than other baseball teams or a different entertainment venue."

It's hard to argue that the Red Sox wouldn't attract more fans than the Reds.

Also, my feeling is that the Reds' hardball, demanding approach probably rubbed the local politicians the wrong way. John Allen was never known for his negotiation ability or diplomacy.. I guess the town figured that if they had to build a new park, might as well get a marque name. Can't say that I blame them for telling the Reds to kiss off after the Reds hardballed them.

Sea Ray
05-28-2008, 02:48 PM
because the Bengals actually had some leverage(Baltimore, etc) while the Reds had no leverage, they weren't going anywhere.

That's part of it but there's also the part that John Allen is no Mike Brown when it comes to negotiating contracts

M2
05-28-2008, 03:30 PM
if Sarasota had put a deal anything like this on the table for the Reds they wouldn't be leaving. I think the point is that Sarasota really wasn't all that interested in keeping the Reds.

It would seem that way. The Red Sox sell out ST games. I know people who buy scalped tickets just to get into those games. So I can see where Sarasota's coming from. If you pay big money for the Red Sox, you're going to get a fairly massive influx of attendees. Also, you've got to figure that a Red Sox affiliate will draw well at a top facility in Florida (which would leave the Cali League Lancaster JetHawks without an affiliation).

The sub-lesson is never put John Allen in charge of anything, not even a trip to the bathroom. He clearly took the easiest option and never put much effort into possible better options.

MartyFan
05-28-2008, 03:58 PM
It would seem that way. The Red Sox sell out ST games. I know people who buy scalped tickets just to get into those games. So I can see where Sarasota's coming from. If you pay big money for the Red Sox, you're going to get a fairly massive influx of attendees. Also, you've got to figure that a Red Sox affiliate will draw well at a top facility in Florida (which would leave the Cali League Lancaster JetHawks without an affiliation).

The sub-lesson is never put John Allen in charge of anything, not even a trip to the bathroom. He clearly took the easiest option and never put much effort into possible better options.

Agreed.

Also, you gotta remember how many BoSox fans live in Sarasota. Ted Williams helped to promote several retirement communities throughout the state before he passed away. When I lived in Florida hardly any Reds fans lived in my area but there were all kinds of BoSox, Yankee and Braves fans.

I think it is a smart move by the city...lets face it, The Reds do not have the fan base the BoSox do nor do the fans they have have the same sort of affluence that those large market teams enjoy.

Chip R
05-28-2008, 04:11 PM
Perhaps, despite what the Reds said in public, they never wanted to stay in Sarasota.

blumj
05-28-2008, 05:01 PM
It would seem that way. The Red Sox sell out ST games. I know people who buy scalped tickets just to get into those games. So I can see where Sarasota's coming from. If you pay big money for the Red Sox, you're going to get a fairly massive influx of attendees. Also, you've got to figure that a Red Sox affiliate will draw well at a top facility in Florida (which would leave the Cali League Lancaster JetHawks without an affiliation).


They just bought the Salem Avalanche.

vaticanplum
05-28-2008, 05:03 PM
They just bought the Salem Avalanche.

That sounds like a brand of gum. Gotta love single-A ball.

M2
05-28-2008, 05:14 PM
They just bought the Salem Avalanche.

Hmm, I wonder if the Sarasota deal might convince them to buy and flip the Salem club. I lived near Salem for a short while and that franchise has never been a huge draw (3,916 a game last year and that set the franchise single season attendance record).

blumj
05-28-2008, 05:51 PM
That sounds like a brand of gum. Gotta love single-A ball.
I actually like the Lancaster Jethawks name better. I will miss that, if not the ridiculous environment that makes it almost impossible to figure out which prospects can really hit or pitch.

JaxRed
05-28-2008, 06:46 PM
Hmm, I wonder if the Sarasota deal might convince them to buy and flip the Salem club. I lived near Salem for a short while and that franchise has never been a huge draw (3,916 a game last year and that set the franchise single season attendance record).

Word has been in several articles that Red Sox have inquired about buying Sarasota Reds back if this occurs. (Appparently Ft Myers is only FSL club not owned by team).

Also there is private money involved in the Sarasota deal, and talk off building a mini-Fenway.

And Reds Hi-A team probably has 50% chance of being in either Salem or Lancaster next year

M2
05-28-2008, 06:57 PM
Word has been in several articles that Red Sox have inquired about buying Sarasota Reds back if this occurs. (Appparently Ft Myers is only FSL club not owned by team).

Also there is private money involved in the Sarasota deal, and talk off building a mini-Fenway.

And Reds Hi-A team probably has 50% chance of being in either Salem or Lancaster next year

Sox to Sarasota? Reds to Salem? Geographically that would make sense. I'm pretty sure Roanoke used to get Reds games on the radio (still might).

Cyclone792
05-28-2008, 07:13 PM
Sox to Sarasota? Reds to Salem? Geographically that would make sense. I'm pretty sure Roanoke used to get Reds games on the radio (still might).

Salem would be great, IMO, and would help reestablish the Reds reach eastward by providing those Reds fans living in eastern Kentucky and throughout West Virginia a reasonably close outlet to the organization.

gm
05-28-2008, 07:22 PM
Sarasota is paying an awful lot for the letters 'o' and 'x'

but I don't mind, since a trip to Red's spring training in my lifetime just got a whole lot more affordable

oregonred
05-28-2008, 08:57 PM
Agreed.

Also, you gotta remember how many BoSox fans live in Sarasota. Ted Williams helped to promote several retirement communities throughout the state before he passed away. When I lived in Florida hardly any Reds fans lived in my area but there were all kinds of BoSox, Yankee and Braves fans.

I think it is a smart move by the city...lets face it, The Reds do not have the fan base the BoSox do nor do the fans they have have the same sort of affluence that those large market teams enjoy.

The Gulf side is the midwest transplant and retiree hub (Tampa/Sarasota/Ft Myers/Naples) and the Southeast part of the state is essentially New York/New England South -- guess which area of the state is a lot more friendly :). I'm certain there are an order of magnitude higher ex-Ohioans in Sarasota then New Englanders. Until Sarasota and Naples arrived as trendy about ten years ago you would be hard pressed to ever see many permanent Northeastern transplants in those areas.

After the Dodgers ditched Vero and the Reds bolted on Sarasota (big surpise to most in the Grapefruit League) Florida cities now realize they are in crisis mode for Spring Training as much more aggressive Arizona will now have 15 of the teams. When the Reds called Sarasota's bluff, the only chance they had was to go all-in for the Red Sox home run (or the Orioles who want to leave the orphan/craphole spring training site down in Ft Lauderdale). The Reds and Ohioans are a big draw for Sarasota, I don't think they were bluffing the Reds at all they were banking on the Reds staying with their natural fan base in SW Florida. They now realize they've got to go all out for the Red Sox or wind up as a Spring Training footnote.

RedlegJake
05-28-2008, 10:53 PM
I'm ecstatic about Tucson myself. My son just got re-stationed to Davis Monthan AFB so I know where I'll be living every spring. Besides I love Arizona so I'd go anyway but this way I can stay for the whole spring.

Dom Heffner
05-29-2008, 10:15 AM
When I lived in Sarasota, I lived 5 miles from where the Reds played at Ed Smith Stadium.

Even after I moved, it was nice to know they were still just an hour or so away from me in Tampa.

Oh well. Nothing lasts forever.

REDREAD
05-29-2008, 02:10 PM
The sub-lesson is never put John Allen in charge of anything, not even a trip to the bathroom. He clearly took the easiest option and never put much effort into possible better options.

Every negotiation that John Allen has been put in charge of has been a failure.

He took Casey to arbitration over pocket change.
He ruined the local TV contracts.
He got us much less money for our cable broadcast than the Indians (back when the Indians weren't that much more marketable than us).
He could've done much better with the whole GAB thing.

This spring training thing is the final turd Allen leaves us with. There was probably a way to keep the Reds in Sarasota, but I'm sure Allen rubbed the politicians the wrong way (as he does everyone). It wouldn't take much to get the local politicians tired of dealing with John Allen, particularly if he was trying to establish dominance. In my experience, local politicians like to have their little power trips. I'm sure they decided to just let the Reds walk. If the Red Sox weren't available, they'd probably be willing to spend that cash to get the Marllins or another 2nd tier team to replace the Reds, just to show John Allen that Sarasota doesn't need the Reds. That's how local politicians think, in my experience..

Johnny Footstool
05-29-2008, 02:35 PM
Well, I have never been to Florida for a Reds game.....but I will go to many Reds games in Arizona.....so I will hold up my end.

Me, too.

oregonred
06-04-2008, 11:56 PM
West Palm 11pm news reporting the Orioles (Ft Lauderdale) will soon be announcing the long rumored move up I-95 to Vero Beach taking over in Dodgertown.

Means the Red Sox are probably the only Florida team potentially in play for Sarasota for the next several seasons.

Thinking about this, Ft Myers (Twins/Red Sox) would now become even more isolated as the only opposing camps safely within two hours or less travel time would probably be the Pirates (Bradenton). Would probably make a lot of sense for the Red Sox to get closer to the Tampa/Orlando cluster of training sites

Unassisted
10-15-2008, 10:46 AM
Fear not, Sarasota has also failed to land the Red Sox.


Red Sox won’t move training to Sarasota

The Associated Press

SARASOTA — The Boston Red Sox won’t be moving to Sarasota for spring training.

The city and county said Tuesday that they have ended negotiations with the club and are giving up the effort to get the team to move its spring home from Fort Myers to Sarasota.

The city and Sarasota County had been negotiating with the Red Sox for months, after the Cincinnati Reds decided to move its spring operations to Goodyear, Ariz.

In a joint statement, the city and county said they were unable to reach an agreement with the Red Sox and the current economic climate limited the amount of money they had to spend on a new complex for the team.

The Red Sox want to move to better facilities than they have now in Fort Myers, where they have trained since 1993.

durl
10-15-2008, 11:32 AM
Well, it appears the Red Sox also negotiate too harshly. :)

Yachtzee
10-15-2008, 03:56 PM
Well, at least the Reds have a place to go back to if Goodyear can't come up with the money to build their complex. Rumor has it they're having problems because of the downturn in the economy.

JaxRed
10-15-2008, 03:59 PM
Well, at least the Reds have a place to go back to if Goodyear can't come up with the money to build their complex. Rumor has it they're having problems because of the downturn in the economy.

We have a link on this?

Okay a google search comes up with some. Both sides say it's not a problem (so far)

Chip R
10-15-2008, 07:49 PM
Sounds like, to paraphrase Vince McMahon, Sarasota didn't screw the Reds. Sarasota screwed Sarasota.

Cooper
10-15-2008, 10:32 PM
Turning down the Red Sox is like turning down a money making machine. They have rabid fans who are used to spending lots of money. Sarasota needs to get out of its own way.

Yachtzee
10-16-2008, 07:37 PM
We have a link on this?

Okay a google search comes up with some. Both sides say it's not a problem (so far)

I had actually come across it in one of the Cleveland/Akron papers. I've always been under the impression that Goodyear's ability to pay for the training facilities was contingent on expected growth from new development. While the parties seem to be saying "Everything's okay, nothing to be concerned about" now, problems in the housing and credit markets would seem to indicate otherwise.

Chip R
10-16-2008, 08:00 PM
I had actually come across it in one of the Cleveland/Akron papers. I've always been under the impression that Goodyear's ability to pay for the training facilities was contingent on expected growth from new development. While the parties seem to be saying "Everything's okay, nothing to be concerned about" now, problems in the housing and credit markets would seem to indicate otherwise.


Maybe the Reds will have to train in Florence in 2010. ;)