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Matt700wlw
05-28-2008, 02:21 PM
The Reds today optioned to Class AAA Louisville OF Corey Patterson, selected from Louisville the contract of IF Andy Phillips and transferred to the 60-day disabled list SS Alex Gonzalez.

Patterson hit .200 in 45g and 29 starts for the Reds.

Gonzalez has been on the DL all season with a compression fracture in his left knee.

Phillips has spent the season at Louisville (40g, .315, 5hr, 22rbi, 2sb)...for the Bats he appeared in 53g at 1B, 51g at 3B, 7g at 2B and 34g at DH... he will wear uniform number 46.

OldXOhio
05-28-2008, 02:21 PM
Walt said last night more moves were coming....he wasn't kidding.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-28-2008, 02:22 PM
Hopefully Valentin is next.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 02:26 PM
move makes sense ... I mentioned yesterday that Phillips and Bruce should be up from AAA and Patterson should be sent with Hatty. Not that Phillips is anything of note but he fills a need whereas Hatty and Patterson did not.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 02:27 PM
Hopefully Valentin is next.Javy has some value as a PH and he does decently in that role. Next it would be nice to swing a deal for Pena from the Braves and give him a try behind the plate.

redsfan30
05-28-2008, 02:27 PM
Hopefully he can get on track enough and come back up and provide some speed and defense off the bench.

Reds Freak
05-28-2008, 02:28 PM
Uh oh, those of you who work in downtown Cincinnati better keep an eye on the bridges across the Ohio today. Dusty might be wandering out on the edges there...

flyer85
05-28-2008, 02:28 PM
Hopefully he can get on track enough and come back up and provide some speed and defense off the bench.My hope is that the Reds have seen the last of Corey.

redsrule2500
05-28-2008, 02:29 PM
Hopefully he can get on track enough and come back up and provide some speed and defense off the bench.

I'm too scared to hope for him to succeed. His success = leadoff for the Reds :thumbdown

Aronchis
05-28-2008, 02:29 PM
I wouldn't be surprised Corey never plays for the Reds again.

Cyclone792
05-28-2008, 02:31 PM
Outstanding to see Patterson heading down. Hopefully his redundancy remains in Louisville and is never seen up here again.


Hopefully Valentin is next.

My hope is that Valentin goes when Hopper returns from the DL.

919191
05-28-2008, 02:31 PM
I bet Dusty has this special item at his disposal to recall Patterson instantly.:)


http://www.castlegc.ie/live/images/stories/Hotline.jpg


I've been wondering when Gonzalez would be transferred to the 60 day DL.

Kc61
05-28-2008, 02:32 PM
As I've been saying, Reds need right handed hitting. You'll see Phillips at first and maybe even third against some lefties.

I wonder if the Gonzo 60-day is retroactive or if it means he is out until the end of July. Probably the latter.

Reds are improving. Next fix the Belisle/Fogg situation.

redsfan30
05-28-2008, 02:32 PM
I'm too scared to hope for him to succeed. His success = leadoff for the Reds :thumbdown

Not with Jay Bruce here now. If Corey Patterson ever makes it back to Cincinnati, it will be as the fourth outfielder.

LincolnparkRed
05-28-2008, 02:32 PM
I wouldn't be surprised Corey never plays again.

fixed it, he gets infatuated with power and that seems to be his downfall

flyer85
05-28-2008, 02:33 PM
Not with Jay Bruce here now. If Corey Patterson ever makes it back to Cincinnati, it will be as the fourth outfielder.a role that he is ill-suited for. A 4th OF better be able to hit.

Chip R
05-28-2008, 02:34 PM
I'm surprised he has options left.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 02:34 PM
fixed it, he gets infatuated with power and that seems to be his downfallthe opposite seems to have happened ... in the last 2 seasons his K are down ~50 percent and his power has disappeared. Looks to me as if he has tried to become a slap hitter and is failing miserably.

OnBaseMachine
05-28-2008, 02:35 PM
Nice move. I wouldn't have minded keeping Patterson around as a 5th outfielder/defensive replacement late in the game but keeping him around also means there is a good chance Dusty Baker would play him more than he should. Andy Phillips is no star or anything but he was hitting .315/.394/.493 - .887 OPS in Louisville after hitting .292/.338/.373 - .711 OPS with the Yankees last season.

RedsManRick
05-28-2008, 02:38 PM
I love this move if for no other reason than that it means Dusty can't play Patterson in Bruce's stead. Freel at the top of the lineup is tolerable.

I think we're going to see Hairston at SS neaaly every day that Bruce plays, because otherwise Dusty won't know what do with leadoff hitter. I doubt he wants Janish there and nobody else fits his mold.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-28-2008, 02:39 PM
Javy has some value as a PH and he does decently in that role.

I keep reading that Javy is useful as a PH and it's doesn't feel right so I looked up his situational stats and he sports a career .595 OPS as a pinch hitter (150+ plate appearances).

.199/.261./333

This year his line as a PH is:

.167/.231/.167 (13 PA's)

The last few years as a Red:

2007 = .250/.302/.425 (43 PA's)
2006 = .231/..273/.462 (55 PA's)
2005 = .182/..308/.182 (13 PA's)

and his career line (just as a hitter) is:

.251/.308/.400

Am I missing something here?

OldXOhio
05-28-2008, 02:40 PM
Next fix the Belisle/Fogg situation.

Is that fix Daryl Thompson or is it still too soon?

membengal
05-28-2008, 02:41 PM
Matt Maloney.

lollipopcurve
05-28-2008, 02:41 PM
A. Phillips has been killing lefties this year.

Jpup
05-28-2008, 02:41 PM
I've always heard that if you hit .200+ as a pinch hitter, you are pretty good.:confused:

RichRed
05-28-2008, 02:43 PM
I keep reading that Javy is useful as a PH and it's doesn't feel right so I looked up his situational stats and he sports a career .595 OPS as a pinch hitter (150+ plate appearances).

.199/.261./333

This year his line as a PH is:

.167/.231/.167 (13 PA's)

The last few years as a Red:

2007 = .250/.302/.425 (43 PA's)
2006 = .231/..273/.462 (55 PA's)
2005 = .182/..308/.182 (13 PA's)

and his career line (just as a hitter) is:

.251/.308/.400

I think Javy's rep is built on those 4 pinch-hit HRs he hit in '06. As pinch hitters go, he's certainly no Jerry Lynch.

Sea Ray
05-28-2008, 02:46 PM
Any guess on why this move was done today and not when Bruce was recalled? Did they need to be convinced that Bruce can hit major league pitching?

flyer85
05-28-2008, 02:46 PM
over the last 3 years as a PH Javy has a 705 OPS with 5 HRs ... that is not that bad. Hatty gave ample demonstration how tough the job can be.

Danny Serafini
05-28-2008, 02:47 PM
I wonder if the Gonzo 60-day is retroactive or if it means he is out until the end of July. Probably the latter.

Retroactive. Though he may not be back until the end of July anyway.

OnBaseMachine
05-28-2008, 02:47 PM
A. Phillips has been killing lefties this year.

Yep. Phillips is hitting .372/.444/.674 - 1.119 OPS vs lefties.

Chip R
05-28-2008, 02:47 PM
I feel bad for Dusty. Who's going to listen to his Hank Aaron stories now?

Jpup
05-28-2008, 02:48 PM
I feel bad for Dusty. Who's going to listen to his Hank Aaron stories now?

Hairston.

VR
05-28-2008, 02:50 PM
With EE scuffling, will Phillips see some time at 3b? I'm guessing he'll get quite a few starts and ab's based on the current roster construction.

I'm guessing Patterson will go all "Deion" in AAA, hitting .450 over the next few weeks and getting recalled.


I still have confidence in the Reds making a season out of it.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-28-2008, 02:51 PM
over the last 3 years as a PH Javy has a 705 OPS with 5 HRs ... that is not that bad. Hatty gave ample demonstration how tough the job can be.


Not horrendous, but nothing better than average and not enough to cement a spot on a roster.

I would think the league average PH could do just as well (if not better) over 120+ plate appearances.

bucksfan2
05-28-2008, 02:51 PM
I wonder.....

If a big divide between Castellini, Dusty and Krivsky was Corey Patterson? I think Dusty wanted him, Cast wanted to give Dusty him, yet Krivsky wanted nothing to do with him.

I wonder if Jocketty sent Patterson down so Dusty wouldn't be able to use him? Last night Dusty pinch hit for Cueto leading off an inning with Patterson. Made absolutly no sense when an inning later he had to pinch hit with Ross and wanted him to bunt.

Jpup
05-28-2008, 02:52 PM
Patterson being booed out of GABP last night probably didn't help his cause.

dabvu2498
05-28-2008, 02:52 PM
Not horrendous, but nothing better than average

NL average PHers:

2008: .619 OPS
2007: .669 OPS
2006: .676 OPS
2005: .652 OPS

redsmetz
05-28-2008, 02:53 PM
With EE scuffling, will Phillips see some time at 3b? I'm guessing he'll get quite a few starts and ab's based on the current roster construction.

I'm guessing Patterson will go all "Deion" in AAA, hitting .450 over the next few weeks and getting recalled.


I still have confidence in the Reds making a season out of it.

I think it's possible he's down in Louisville to make himself look better so we can unload him for the proverbial bucket of balls or some other chaff.

kaldaniels
05-28-2008, 02:54 PM
I keep reading that Javy is useful as a PH and it's doesn't feel right so I looked up his situational stats and he sports a career .595 OPS as a pinch hitter (150+ plate appearances).

.199/.261./333

This year his line as a PH is:

.167/.231/.167 (13 PA's)

The last few years as a Red:

2007 = .250/.302/.425 (43 PA's)
2006 = .231/..273/.462 (55 PA's)
2005 = .182/..308/.182 (13 PA's)

and his career line (just as a hitter) is:

.251/.308/.400

Am I missing something here?

You can take those facts and shove it. George Grande says he is a great pinch hitter and thats all I need to know. :D

BuckeyeRedleg
05-28-2008, 02:57 PM
NL average PHers:

2008: .619 OPS
2007: .669 OPS
2006: .676 OPS
2005: .652 OPS

And Javy is .595 for his career and .705 over his last three years, which suggests he's nothing more than average.

I am surprised how low those numbers are.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 02:57 PM
Not horrendous, but nothing better than average and not enough to cement a spot on a roster.
I would agree but I see no better options at the moment. I'd love to see all three of the catchers somewhere else.

dabvu2498
05-28-2008, 02:58 PM
I am surprised how low those numbers are.

There's a reason they're not in the starting lineup.

And it ain't easy.

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 02:58 PM
I'm surprised he has options left.

I'm guessing that because he signed a minor league contract, he can be optioned down. I wonder if he signed a split contract and will get paid less in AAA.

Anyhow, this kind of blows a hole in the conspiracy theory that Dusty can force anyone to keep Patterson on the 25 man roster.. that was all Wayne's idea...

klw
05-28-2008, 02:59 PM
I think it's possible he's down in Louisville to make himself look better so we can unload him for the proverbial bucket of balls or some other chaff.

Why would anyone trade for Patterson when they could just sign Lofton?

flyer85
05-28-2008, 03:03 PM
Why would anyone trade for Patterson?Fixed

Lofton really can't play CF any more. And there is a reason Patterson got no offers until into March over the off-season.

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 03:04 PM
I wonder.....

If a big divide between Castellini, Dusty and Krivsky was Corey Patterson? I think Dusty wanted him, Cast wanted to give Dusty him, yet Krivsky wanted nothing to do with him.
.

I really doubt it. If Dusty had enough pull to force Patterson on the roster, why not Hairston too? Also, I don't see Dusty making a big stink about Patterson being sent down.

Remember, Wayne fell in love with Castro. He also fell in love with grabbing the long shot risks. Wayne throught Patterson was the next Phillips/Hamilton. He was wrong. It wasn't a bad idea. Just didn't work out. But it was Wayne's call. That's his job.

fearofpopvol1
05-28-2008, 03:06 PM
I love this move if for no other reason than that it means Dusty can't play Patterson in Bruce's stead. Freel at the top of the lineup is tolerable.

I think we're going to see Hairston at SS neaaly every day that Bruce plays, because otherwise Dusty won't know what do with leadoff hitter. I doubt he wants Janish there and nobody else fits his mold.

What about putting Hairston at 3rd (since EdE has been struggling) and Janish at SS?

flyer85
05-28-2008, 03:06 PM
By the comments Wayne made after his firing he made it sound like he didn't want to sign Patterson but was ordered to make it happen. The only scenario(if it is true) that makes sense is that Dusty made his want known to Castellini.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 03:07 PM
What about putting Hairston at 3rd (since EdE has been struggling) and Janish at SS?Hairston and his 685 career OPS will soon rear it's ugly head. The best and most likely hope is that the EE slump ends he starts rippin' the ball.

Roy Tucker
05-28-2008, 03:07 PM
Well, huh. I'll be darned. Hatteberg getting moved wasn't a huge shocker, but I am very surprised at this.

Jocketty continues to re-make the gargoyle-shaped Reds roster. This is interesting.

fearofpopvol1
05-28-2008, 03:08 PM
Hairston and his 685 career OPS will soon rear it's ugly head. The best and most likely hope is that the EE slump ends he starts rippin' the ball.

Yeah, but Hairston has had a pretty hot bat since coming up from AAA. Why not ride it until it cools off (especially with EdE slumping)?

NJReds
05-28-2008, 03:08 PM
Phillips is a decent defensive 1B as well. He's used to this role, getting only spot starts with the Yankees. He's not great, but definitely more useful to this team than Patterson.

fearofpopvol1
05-28-2008, 03:08 PM
Also, how is Phillips as a defender? Anyone in the know on that? I don't much about him.

redsmetz
05-28-2008, 03:11 PM
Maybe Patterson could change his name to Corey Phillips and then we'd have three jersey that would read: A. Phillips; B. Phillips, C. Phillips...

flyer85
05-28-2008, 03:13 PM
Yeah, but Hairston has had a pretty hot bat since coming up from AAA. Why not ride it until it cools off (especially with EdE slumping)?because it could end today and EEs could start today ... and the upside with EEs bat is light years past Hairston. EE is simply the better choice so you let him play. Might be different if Keppinger was available.

fearofpopvol1
05-28-2008, 03:16 PM
because it could end today and EEs could start today ... and the upside with EEs bat is light years past Hairston. EE is simply the better choice so you let him play. Might be different if Keppinger was available.

Or the reverse could be true. Hairston's hot bat could continue today and EdE could continue to slump.

I agree that EdE has more upside than Hairston, but it's a gamble either way. I think it's smarter to ride the hot bat at least until it cools off.

NJReds
05-28-2008, 03:16 PM
Also, how is Phillips as a defender? Anyone in the know on that? I don't much about him.

I don't have stats to back it up, but I recall with the Yankees that he was a very good defensive first baseman. I don't think he played any other positions with NY.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-28-2008, 03:19 PM
By the comments Wayne made after his firing he made it sound like he didn't want to sign Patterson but was ordered to make it happen. The only scenario(if it is true) that makes sense is that Dusty made his want known to Castellini.

But yet according to Wayne, Dusty was his guy.

I would hope for Wayne's sake, Dusty wasn't really his guy. If he was, Wayne got what he deserved by wasting 10 million on a name and dumping Petey Mac.

Spring~Fields
05-28-2008, 03:22 PM
force anyone to keep Patterson on the 25 man roster.. that was all Wayne's idea...

I never seen the word force used with Dusty and Patterson, I just thought that it was a mutualistic and consensual, Where is that force allegation? ;)

But this is a part of the Dusty rerun, Patterson has been sent down before in his relationship with Dusty, where Hairston goes to leadoff.

I like Jocketty's style, he indicates that Dusty makes out the lineups, then Jocketty uses a big swifter to dust away Dusty's cub particles.........., in effect directing him on the lineup. :lol:

bucksfan2
05-28-2008, 03:25 PM
I really doubt it. If Dusty had enough pull to force Patterson on the roster, why not Hairston too? Also, I don't see Dusty making a big stink about Patterson being sent down.

Remember, Wayne fell in love with Castro. He also fell in love with grabbing the long shot risks. Wayne throught Patterson was the next Phillips/Hamilton. He was wrong. It wasn't a bad idea. Just didn't work out. But it was Wayne's call. That's his job.

I think you underestimate the influence that Dusty had on Castellini. From the reports I had heard Castellini told Krivsky to go get him. That is the reason he got a 3M payday when he made the major league club. I think Dusty went to the big boss and said I want Patterson to play CF for me. He could have easily made an arguement that Patterson would be the best option to play CF out there. I also wonder if Dusty had been told by the GM to not hit Patterson leadoff? Patterson could have some attributes that could help this team being a defensive replacement or a pinch runner but when Dusty started him in CF over a more deserving (at the time) Freel and used him as the first player off the bench I think it was time to go.

Spring~Fields
05-28-2008, 03:35 PM
I think you underestimate the influence that Dusty had on Castellini. From the reports I had heard Castellini told Krivsky to go get him. That is the reason he got a 3M payday when he made the major league club. I think Dusty went to the big boss and said I want Patterson to play CF for me. He could have easily made an arguement that Patterson would be the best option to play CF out there. I also wonder if Dusty had been told by the GM to not hit Patterson leadoff? Patterson could have some attributes that could help this team being a defensive replacement or a pinch runner but when Dusty started him in CF over a more deserving (at the time) Freel and used him as the first player off the bench I think it was time to go.

Well if Krivsky's scouts recommended Patterson, Hairston, Bako and Mercker four ex-cubs that had some statistical issues, where it would follow that they had performance issues, then whoever recommended them to Krivsky should have been fired right along with him. There is enough Dusy articles out there alleging Dusty speaking as if he had a significant role in them coming to the Reds, he even put his stamp of approval on the veteran Fogg, reportedly in one article.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/redsinsider/2008/02/dusty-talks-to-lofton-patterson.asp

MrCinatit
05-28-2008, 03:42 PM
Dear Walt;
I like what I see so far - keep doing stuff like that.
Like others, I would not be surprised if Corey never plays for the Reds again.
For some reason, I have a feeling in the pit of my stomach that the same could be true for Gonzalez, but I have nothing to base that on.

MartyFan
05-28-2008, 03:46 PM
I know Special K said he was the one pulling the trigger on hiring Dusty but I just don't believe it. He has a history of being incredibly loyal and at the end of last season he told Mac that he was going to be given full consideration for the managers job. If you look at how it all worked out, Mc says he never even heard from Special K after that...to me that says that Mr. C was pushing to get an established manager...specifically Dusty...with Walt n the wings...there were too many fires to put out and once Duaty came in the Dominoes started to fall and he started pulling strings.

That's the way I see it.

Spring~Fields
05-28-2008, 03:48 PM
By the comments Wayne made after his firing he made it sound like he didn't want to sign Patterson but was ordered to make it happen. The only scenario(if it is true) that makes sense is that Dusty made his want known to Castellini.

New big name manager with a history of winning, why not appease and work with him, by making it possible to give Patterson, Bako, Hairston and Mercker, veteran experience, a job?

LoganBuck
05-28-2008, 03:48 PM
Free at last, Free at last

The nightmare is ending. Walt Jocketty for King of the World, with Jay Bruce's blessing, of course.

WebScorpion
05-28-2008, 03:48 PM
Good move for the bench, IMO. Keep 'em coming! :thumbup:

jojo
05-28-2008, 03:49 PM
As I've been saying, Reds need right handed hitting. You'll see Phillips at first and maybe even third against some lefties.

Phillips doesn't really inspire a lot of confidence in that role though... Basically he's different.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 03:52 PM
Phillips doesn't really inspire a lot of confidence in that role though...he does look good in comparison.

Hopefully Dusty won't bet him leadoff.

vaticanplum
05-28-2008, 03:52 PM
I saw Andy Phillips's first major league at-bat. He hit a two-run pinch hit homer against the Red Sox.

Carry on.

Wheelhouse
05-28-2008, 03:56 PM
Yep. Phillips is hitting .372/.444/.674 - 1.119 OPS vs lefties.

So question: WHY isn't he starting against Gorzellany tonight?

jojo
05-28-2008, 03:56 PM
he does look good in comparison.

Hopefully Dusty won't bet him leadoff.

This really isn't fixing problems though. It's promoting a guy who was so obviously ready that the industry was wondering whether Bruce remaining in AAA was a signal that the Reds FO had collectively hit their heads on something hard.

Once Bruce got the call, the rest of this stuff was shuffling deck chairs. Don't need two blue ones? Switch one out for a red one.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 03:58 PM
So question: WHY isn't he starting against Gorzellany tonight?Votto's OPS is over 1000 against LHPs to this point in the season.

OldRightHander
05-28-2008, 04:03 PM
he does look good in comparison.

Hopefully Dusty won't bet him leadoff.

Dusty's not Pete.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-28-2008, 04:04 PM
Phillips has absolutely destroyed AAA pitching the past few years.

I doubt most of us thought Jeff Keppinger inspired much confidence before he was called up.

jojo
05-28-2008, 04:06 PM
BTW, this "tearing up lefties" in the minors business for Phillips has been over a grand total of 34 at bats in '08. Besides as a 31 year old at Louisville he should be tearing something up. He's had 154 at bats in the majors against lefties and posted: .217/.255/.289 OPS: .544.:eek: Neither a sufficient sample to be meaningful but, really, Andy Phillips shouldn't be expected to do much as a Red.

Chip R
05-28-2008, 04:07 PM
I'm guessing that because he signed a minor league contract, he can be optioned down. I wonder if he signed a split contract and will get paid less in AAA.



Doesn't have anything to do with it. If Wily Mo Pena signed a minor league deal with someone he couldn't be optioned since his were all burned by the Yankees. I'm just surprised he had an option or didn't have enough service time to refuse it.

vaticanplum
05-28-2008, 04:08 PM
Phillips has absolutely destroyed AAA pitching the past few years.

I doubt most of us thought Jeff Keppinger inspired much confidence before he was called up.

Phillips was always regarded as a great hitting prospect in the Yankees' organization. He really is a great pure hitter. I think the Yankees gave up on him in a slump because he's a borderline defensive liability and kinda slow...but he's a great asset as a hitter no matter how you cut it. Although he does not hit lefties well; I think these recent results are a big fluke.

flyer85
05-28-2008, 04:13 PM
Phillips has absolutely destroyed AAA pitching the past few years.

I doubt most of us thought Jeff Keppinger inspired much confidence before he was called up.Phillips is not a middle infielder. at the major league level he is a first baseman ... which means you better rake.

Matt700wlw
05-28-2008, 04:13 PM
Andy Phillips could be another that benefits from GABP as well

Reds Fanatic
05-28-2008, 04:24 PM
First they get Jay Bruce up here and then the next day they send down Corey Patterson. It is like Christmas in May. As a Reds fan I am not used to getting this much good news in one week.

Degenerate39
05-28-2008, 04:33 PM
Did Walt just discover Redszone or something? This is a great time. Keep these good moves comin' Walk Jockerty!

Reds Fanatic
05-28-2008, 04:38 PM
An update on Patterson from John Fay. Apparently Patterson volunteered to go to AAA.


Dusty Baker said Corey Patterson came to him yesterday and volunteered to go Triple-A.

"It was a mutual decision," Baker said. "I was going to call Corey in and talk to him. He came in before I called him in. He said, 'I got to get my act together. I've got to change some things.' He knows he's better than he played. He's still got the skill, the talent. He's still only 28 years old. It's good move to go down, stay a while and get his stuff together."

It sounds like there's mechanical problems with Patterson's swing. "No. 1, he's got to get on that fastball and eliminate some steps. Basically, hitting is liek a two-step process. He had a third and fourth step in there."

redsmetz
05-28-2008, 04:41 PM
An update on Patterson from John Fay. Apparently Patterson volunteered to go to AAA.

You beat me to it - I was going to post this just now. My hope would be that Patterson shows some modicum of value and we can move him on to another team.

dabvu2498
05-28-2008, 04:41 PM
Hmm. That is interesting.

I have to give Patterson some credit for knowing he's been the pits.

NC Reds
05-28-2008, 04:41 PM
I like this move. We needed a righty bat off the bench.

I didn't like him, but I was growing tired of kicking Corey Patterson for every shortcoming. I beat that dead horse as much as anyone. If he goes down and gets straightened out, I might be able to accept him as a 5th outfielder.

Degenerate39
05-28-2008, 04:42 PM
Please please take you're time down there C.Patt. This is how the season should've started out. Bruce starting in centerfield with Patterson in Triple A.

RedsManRick
05-28-2008, 04:43 PM
Hopefully CPatt can play his way in to some trade value.

Raisor
05-28-2008, 04:47 PM
Hopefully CPatt can play his way in to some trade value.


What can the Reds get from the LA Clippers?

Always Red
05-28-2008, 04:47 PM
I like this move. We needed a righty bat off the bench.

I didn't like him, but I was growing tired of kicking Corey Patterson for every shortcoming. I beat that dead horse as much as anyone. If he goes down and gets straightened out, I might be able to accept him as a 5th outfielder.

I thought he played the best defensive CF this team has seen in years; he ran down balls in the gap and over his head that have been falling in. If he can regain his batting stroke, he can definitely be of some value- either to the Reds, or as trade bait.

Highlifeman21
05-28-2008, 04:50 PM
Hopefully Valentin is next.

:thumbup::beerme:

I couldn't agree more.

Highlifeman21
05-28-2008, 04:53 PM
Remember when we brought in Terence Long a couple years back, and he never made the MLB roster (IIRC)?

So far, the Patterson move kinda reminds me of that, except Patterson's gotten far too many leadoff PAs at the MLB level.

I wouldn't mind bringing Patterson back to the big club once we (hopefully) get rid of Griffey, and make Bruce the everyday RF, and let Patterson roam CF (and hopefully bat 7th or 8th... or 9th). Defensively, Patterson and Bruce would be one of the best tandems in the MLB, IMO.

OldXOhio
05-28-2008, 04:56 PM
Hmm. That is interesting.

I have to give Patterson some credit for knowing he's been the pits.

Last evening's round of boos on Jay Bruce Night had to help solidify it in his mind if there was any doubt.

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 05:05 PM
By the comments Wayne made after his firing he made it sound like he didn't want to sign Patterson but was ordered to make it happen. The only scenario(if it is true) that makes sense is that Dusty made his want known to Castellini.

IIRC, all Wayne said was that Cast said "do what it takes" to sign Patterson.
Apparently, all it took was a minor league deal.

Wayne chose to add Patterson to the 25 man roster. Personally, I didn't think it was a horrible risk. Only a one year deal, and apparently the Reds can send him to AAA. But Wayne freely chose Patterson over Bruce, for whatever reason. Maybe Dusty wanted Patterson, but I would think that Wayne knew his job was to make the team as good as possible. Wayne seemed to have no problem overruling other people that disagreed with him. (see the Trade, which his advisors told him not to do).

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 05:08 PM
I never seen the word force used with Dusty and Patterson, I just thought that it was a mutualistic and consensual, Where is that force allegation? ;)

I will agree with that. Some folks seem to think Wayne had no choice in the matter. That Cast or Dusty ordered Wayne to carry Patterson. I agree, it was mutual.





I like Jocketty's style, he indicates that Dusty makes out the lineups, then Jocketty uses a big swifter to dust away Dusty's cub particles.........., in effect directing him on the lineup. :lol:

:lol: Yep, that's Walt's job.

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 05:12 PM
I think you underestimate the influence that Dusty had on Castellini. From the reports I had heard Castellini told Krivsky to go get him. That is the reason he got a 3M payday when he made the major league club.

Yet Walt has no problem optioning Patterson to the minors.. Why didn't Dusty stop Walt from doing that, if he was the puppet master and had Cast's ear.
Doesn't make sense. If Walt can send down Patterson, Wayne could've done that instead of DFAing Castro, for example..





I think Dusty went to the big boss and said I want Patterson to play CF for me.


And if Wayne wasn't on board with the idea, he would've shot it down.
Wayne had no problem overruling everyone on "The trade'.

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 05:17 PM
Doesn't have anything to do with it. If Wily Mo Pena signed a minor league deal with someone he couldn't be optioned since his were all burned by the Yankees. I'm just surprised he had an option or didn't have enough service time to refuse it.

If you sign a split contract as a free agent, you can be sent down, I think.

Now, if we traded for Patterson, and he had enough service time, he could refuse a minor league assignment and become a FA.

Remember when we signed Stillwell to a split contract in the twilight of his career and he spent the entire year in the minors? Notice how some minor league contracts have "out" clauses if the player isn't called up to the majors by a certain date?

CrackerJack
05-28-2008, 05:34 PM
Sell Patterson to Korea.

Raisor
05-28-2008, 05:38 PM
Sell Patterson to Korea.

For a pair of New Balance running shoes.

Those are tight.

Highlifeman21
05-28-2008, 05:44 PM
For a pair of New Balance running shoes.

Those are tight.

Only if you get the incorrect width...

paulrichjr
05-28-2008, 06:00 PM
And if Wayne wasn't on board with the idea, he would've shot it down.
Wayne had no problem overruling everyone on "The trade'.



True but Wayne had a new advisor(s) in the mix that had the ear of Cast - Walt and really also Dusty. I think if the owner of a team comes to you and says get someone no matter the cost you will be less likely to object than if all of the other advisors in the company say no and you feel it is the right thing to do. Besides is there anyone on this board that still feels that Wayne got taken on "The Trade?" Thompson is already the best player in the deal and he hasn't even suited up with the Reds yet.

fearofpopvol1
05-28-2008, 06:05 PM
Besides is there anyone on this board that still feels that Wayne got taken on "The Trade?" Thompson is already the best player in the deal and he hasn't even suited up with the Reds yet.

Well the sort's of been the problem. He's still a prospect. He hasn't proven anything at the major league level yet.

With that said, he does project nicely. His injury past is still a question mark, but he looks like the real deal. We'll see how he handles AAA.

Marty and Joe
05-28-2008, 06:23 PM
It's a little different since Corey apparently volunteered to go to AAA, but, the quote from Rotoworld was pretty amusing. Sorry if it's already been posted.

"Reds optioned OF Corey Patterson to Triple-A Louisville.

Let the rejoicing begin in Cincinnati. The team decided that the best way to make sure that Dusty Baker didn't play Patterson over Jay Bruce was to take the toy away. He hit .200 with 4 homers and 8 eight stolen bases in 45 games for the Reds."

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 06:27 PM
True but Wayne had a new advisor(s) in the mix that had the ear of Cast - Walt and really also Dusty. I think if the owner of a team comes to you and says get someone no matter the cost you will be less likely to object than if all of the other advisors in the company say no and you feel it is the right thing to do. Besides is there anyone on this board that still feels that Wayne got taken on "The Trade?" Thompson is already the best player in the deal and he hasn't even suited up with the Reds yet.


In the grand scheme of things, when you are evaluating what's right and wrong with this franchise, giving Corey Patterson 145 at bats certainly isn't the worst thing wrong with this team. He's gone at the end of the year regardless. I really don't see why some people are on a crusade to hang Dusty and Cast out to dry for this.

I still say the GM gets final say in all player decisions. As soon as you start rationalizing the minute details, then you have to say Wayne gets no credit for Phillips, because it was a scout that recommended Phillips after he saw Phillips hit vs Oswalt.. Then you can also say Wayne gets no credit for Hamilton, since the Narron brothers recommended him.. You could probably find a way to discredit every good (or bad ) thing that Wayne did if you tried hard enough. IMO, the buck stops at the GM. He takes credit and takes the blame for all player moves.

I mean, let's not kid ourselves. Wayne thought Patterson was worth a shot. I agree that it was a good-risk reward proposition, and I still defend the signing. Giving him 145 at bats did not irrevocably damage this club or cause us to be in last place.

REDREAD
05-28-2008, 06:31 PM
Besides is there anyone on this board that still feels that Wayne got taken on "The Trade?" Thompson is already the best player in the deal and he hasn't even suited up with the Reds yet.


The point is that Wayne overruled his advisors on the trade, so what makes you think Dusty could talk Wayne into doing anything he didn't want to do?
Walt couldn't either. It's been documented that Wayne kept Walt in the dark.

And yes, the Reds lost the trade. Kearns is worth more than Thompson so far. Even worse, "the Trade" knocked us out of contention in 2006. It was a dumb move. But that is not the point of the discussion. The point is that Wayne did whatever he wanted to. He did not get bullied or influenced into making player moves.

reds44
05-28-2008, 06:32 PM
I just gained respect for Corey Patterson after reading that. He's a bad hitter, but he is a better (less bad) then he showed while up here.

Chip R
05-28-2008, 06:35 PM
If you sign a split contract as a free agent, you can be sent down, I think.

Now, if we traded for Patterson, and he had enough service time, he could refuse a minor league assignment and become a FA.

Remember when we signed Stillwell to a split contract in the twilight of his career and he spent the entire year in the minors? Notice how some minor league contracts have "out" clauses if the player isn't called up to the majors by a certain date?


You're confusing that with options. What I'm guessing happened here is that Patterson had an option left but he had enough service time to refuse the option. He wanted to play so he either volunteered or was given the choice to go down to LOU or sit on the bench up here. A similar thing happened to Bret Boone back in 97. He was sucking so bad the Reds sent him down. He could have refused to go down but he didn't and as it turned out, he got called back up a day or so later. Ironically Aaron Boone was the one who replaced him.

What you are thinking about are not options but guys who just go through waivers. Let's say the Reds want to get rid of Lincoln. They can just DFA him and if he doesn't get traded or claimed, he can accept an assignment to LOU.

I realize this is all semantics. Corey's in AAA and it doesn't really matter how he got there. But you only have so many option years (either 3 or 4) after you are initially put on the 40 man roster. You don't ever get them back once you are sent down 3 or 4 years whatever the case may be. Now that doesn't mean you can't get sent down to the minors - using your Stillwell example - it just means that you have to be made available to other teams before you get sent down. Now some guys do have out clauses in their contracts but they are minor league contracts so they weren't on the major league roster when they were signed. A good example of that would be Ron Villone in 1999. The Reds signed him to a minor league deal and he had a clause in his contract where if his contract wasn't purchased by the Reds by such and such a date, he could be a free agent. Of course what happened was that the Reds did purchase his contract by the deadline and it worked out pretty well for both parties.

JaxRed
05-28-2008, 06:38 PM
Chip was absolutely right. Signing split contract has no effect on options and neither does starting out on a minor league deal.

Will M
05-28-2008, 06:40 PM
I thought he played the best defensive CF this team has seen in years; he ran down balls in the gap and over his head that have been falling in. If he can regain his batting stroke, he can definitely be of some value- either to the Reds, or as trade bait.

agree.

KronoRed
05-28-2008, 06:49 PM
Phillips gets a big "eh" from me but happy days that Patterson is gone, didnt need to give Dusty the option the first time Bruce has a slump.

IslandRed
05-28-2008, 06:51 PM
Chip was absolutely right. Signing split contract has no effect on options and neither does starting out on a minor league deal.

Yep. A "split contract" usually just means a player gets major-league money while in the majors and minor-league money while in the minors. Doesn't affect anything else.

Raisor
05-28-2008, 07:00 PM
Wait, so there's two "Phillips"es on the team now.

That's going to be confusing.

gm
05-28-2008, 07:51 PM
Wait, so there's two "Phillips"es on the team now.

That's going to be confusing.


Aren't there two "Dave Andersons" at Louisville?

So much for Walt's "we DFA'd Hatte because Patterson offers speed/defense off the bench" comments from last night...I wonder if Corey went upstairs and "requested" regular PT at AAA?

Patrick Bateman
05-28-2008, 08:06 PM
Wait, so there's two "Phillips"es on the team now.

That's going to be confusing.

I think they are brothers. I was looking at pictures of them, and I couldn't tell them apart.

Screwball
05-28-2008, 08:14 PM
Aren't there two "Dave Andersons" at Louisville?


Close. There are two Drew Andersons in the system, one at Louisville and one at Chattanooga: Drew T. Anderson (Bats) and Drew M. Anderson (Lookouts).

GAC
05-28-2008, 08:37 PM
I think you underestimate the influence that Dusty had on Castellini. From the reports I had heard Castellini told Krivsky to go get him. That is the reason he got a 3M payday when he made the major league club. I think Dusty went to the big boss and said I want Patterson to play CF for me. He could have easily made an arguement that Patterson would be the best option to play CF out there.

A fellow Redzonian just recently sent me this article. Guess what two current Reds players were playing for Dusty back in '05? Patterson and Hairston.

Just a simple coincidence they both just happened to end up on this Reds squad right after Baker is hired, and Baker didn't have any say (influence) in seeing it happen? ;)

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050622&content_id=1100528&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

oregonred
05-28-2008, 09:19 PM
Jocketty is starting to make his stamp and the team will be improved as the obvious roster shortcomings and deficiencies are upgraded one by one. The 0-8 Patterson performance on Sunday probably hit Castelini like a 2x4 in the head which makes the 18-inning loss a case of losing a battle but winning a war :)

If this team is .500 or better at the Break they are at minimum in WC contention the rest of the way. Unlike the Reds teams of the past decade, I believe this year's staff is actually for real and can turn the dog days into a good stretch of solid ball for the club. I'll put up Harang/Volquez/Arroyo/Cueto with Burton/Cordero at the back end against anyone in a four game set and feel like I've always got a chance to take 3/4 even against top competition.

I said I wasn't worried at 14-22, the team was underachieving and the staff was finally at long last possibly in place to run off a nice stretch of W's in the 2nd half of a season. Assuming they hold onto a TD lead tonight they are at 11-6 in the last three weeks and now the Redszone memorialized 2008 season starts to look a whole lot interesting again. Add in Jay Bruce and you got lightning in a bottle that instantly upgrades the offense to above average. For the record I believe 2008 is gravy as I think this team is in very good shape and will be much improved from 2009-2012.

With Arroyo on track, 60% of the starting rotation is rock solid with 20% having high upside (Cueto). The other 20% can be managed (like most teams have to deal with) or maybe Jocketty will get crazy and call up Bailey from late July on and make things really interesting the rest of the way. You've got bullpen issues to address of course, but four guys in the pen have a 9+ K/9 ratio (Cordero, Burton, Bray, Affeldt)

LoganBuck
05-28-2008, 09:49 PM
Dusty said in the pregame show with Marty that "Patterson can go down, work things out , and be back up in a few weeks."

Dread, Fear, Loathing creeping in.

Will M
05-28-2008, 09:52 PM
Dusty said in the pregame show with Marty that "Patterson can go down, work things out , and be back up in a few weeks."

Dread, Fear, Loathing creeping in.

why? if he can get his bat working in AAA he can come back up and be a quality reserve outfielder.

oregonred
05-28-2008, 09:53 PM
Dusty said in the pregame show with Marty that "Patterson can go down, work things out , and be back up in a few weeks."

Dread, Fear, Loathing creeping in.

Barring injury or a trade of either KGJ/Dunn, Patterson has no place in the Reds lineup except as a late inning defensive sub. Dunn + Bruce + KGJ is a no-brainer on the lineup card until further notice.

Patterson is now a non-factor and Redszone can collectively move on to worrying about other life threatening issues de jour...

Spring~Fields
05-28-2008, 10:01 PM
Dusty said in the pregame show with Marty that "Patterson can go down, work things out , and be back up in a few weeks."

Dread, Fear, Loathing creeping in.

Let's hope that Jocketty locked the door on Pattersons way out.

KronoRed
05-28-2008, 10:02 PM
Dusty said in the pregame show with Marty that "Patterson can go down, work things out , and be back up in a few weeks."

Dread, Fear, Loathing creeping in.

No need to fear, Patterson hasn't gotten it figured out in 10 seasons in the majors, he won't discover it down in Louisville, he's injury insurance now.

LoganBuck
05-28-2008, 10:09 PM
why? if he can get his bat working in AAA he can come back up and be a quality reserve outfielder.

Your definition of "quality reserve outfielder" really leaves alot to be desired. His bat has never worked. Put frankly Corey Patterson has NO redeeming value with a bat in his hands. I don't care how good his defense is, I loathe double switches, and defensive replacements (unless it is JR being replaced). He never has, working his magic in Louisville will not change my opinion.

Starting today:

Welcome to Thunderdome: Two offensively challenged center fielders enter the Louisville lineup, one will survive.

Dickerson will have better numbers head to head. I have absolutely no doubt.

Spring~Fields
05-28-2008, 10:13 PM
Dickerson will have better numbers head to head. I have absolutely no doubt.

If nothing else Dickerson could have accomplished the same thing for a lot less money.

The Patterson fantasy belongs to the Chicago connection and the past.

Jocketty put an end to that I believe.

Will M
05-28-2008, 10:15 PM
Your definition of "quality reserve outfielder" really leaves alot to be desired. His bat has never worked. Put frankly Corey Patterson has NO redeeming value with a bat in his hands. I don't care how good his defense is, I loathe double switches, and defensive replacements (unless it is JR being replaced). He never has, working his magic in Louisville will not change my opinion.



1. notice the 'if'

2. i really like double switches. if the Reds have a 2 run lead in the 8th i want guys like Patterson in CF and Janish at SS. I want guys like Jr on the bench.
Having Patterson as a 5th outfielder is ok with me.

LoganBuck
05-28-2008, 10:18 PM
Jocketty put an end to that I believe.

I sure hope so.

RedlegJake
05-28-2008, 10:29 PM
I'd take Dickerson over Corey every time. Same good D, speed, athleticism, contact challenged but a lot cheaper and younger. Plus, maybe Chris learns to at least draw a walk once in awhile, maybe Chris improves his game at the plate - big if and unlikely but with Corey there's a long track record that says he is who he is. If the Reds need a backup CFer I'd much rather it was Dickerson.

As for Phillips he gives the Reds a RH bat, and I'm in the camp that thinks his last season with the Yankees is a pretty fair indicator of his actual ability. Decent, not great but decent. Much better fit than Hatteberg.

Jocketty is sending a message - don't produce and you aren't going to be here. Produce and you'll be rewarded. Guys are being promoted, sold, demoted throughout the system. His big problem this year is going to be Junior because you don't just bench Junior. What can be done, though, is to sub in Freel and move Bruce over in late innings, give Junior a day off once a week or so, and find a graceful, classy way to either move him or wait and buy out his option. Actually, I think at this point Junior might well respond productively to more time off and put up better numbers when he is playing.

Now if Walt DFAs Fogg or finds a taker for him and brings up Maloney I'll be tickled. Maybe Maloney will pan out as a decent 5th guy, maybe not but they aren't going to find out much more pitching him in Louisville. He's pitching really well lately and that's the best time to give him his shot.

Walt is finally starting to move things around. I like it so far.

sonny
05-28-2008, 10:58 PM
Patterson not in a Reds uniform = :rockband:

toledodan
05-28-2008, 10:59 PM
I'd take Dickerson over Corey every time. Same good D, speed, athleticism, contact challenged but a lot cheaper and younger. Plus, maybe Chris learns to at least draw a walk once in awhile, maybe Chris improves his game at the plate - big if and unlikely but with Corey there's a long track record that says he is who he is. If the Reds need a backup CFer I'd much rather it was Dickerson.

As for Phillips he gives the Reds a RH bat, and I'm in the camp that thinks his last season with the Yankees is a pretty fair indicator of his actual ability. Decent, not great but decent. Much better fit than Hatteberg.

Jocketty is sending a message - don't produce and you aren't going to be here. Produce and you'll be rewarded. Guys are being promoted, sold, demoted throughout the system. His big problem this year is going to be Junior because you don't just bench Junior. What can be done, though, is to sub in Freel and move Bruce over in late innings, give Junior a day off once a week or so, and find a graceful, classy way to either move him or wait and buy out his option. Actually, I think at this point Junior might well respond productively to more time off and put up better numbers when he is playing.

Now if Walt DFAs Fogg or finds a taker for him and brings up Maloney I'll be tickled. Maybe Maloney will pan out as a decent 5th guy, maybe not but they aren't going to find out much more pitching him in Louisville. He's pitching really well lately and that's the best time to give him his shot.

Walt is finally starting to move things around. I like it so far.



we do need to give maloney and a few others down in the minors a shot. we need some idea if they will help out now or if we need to target another pitcher in the off season.

during the off season i would look for:

RHB
catcher
overpay for a big name pitcher or RH outfielder

AmarilloRed
05-29-2008, 12:48 AM
Patterson did some good things while he was here: he played a good center field and has always had the ability to take a base. The big problem was his bat. You cannot OBP at .242 as a lead off man and expect to stick on a major league roster. He is now in Louisville with Chris Dickerson, and both of them will have the opportunity to prove they can at least hit AAA pitching. I hope Corey does well at AAA; that way he can either be traded or make it on the Reds as a fourth outfielder. As for Andy Phillips, we needed a righted handed bat off the bench and now we have one. I hope he does just as good.

Caveat Emperor
05-29-2008, 12:52 AM
Patterson did some good things while he was here

The most important of which was having his locker cleaned out promptly this afternoon, allowing Andy Phillips to move in with minimal disruption.

AmarilloRed
05-29-2008, 01:02 AM
The most important of which was having his locker cleaned out promptly this afternoon, allowing Andy Phillips to move in with minimal disruption.

He did not hit well enough to make it as a starting outfielder, but his defense is good enough to have him as a reserve outfielder. He does need to hit much better in Louisville; so we can either trade him or have on the roster as a late-inning defensive replacement. I do not know if any other team in the majors would be willing to pick up that 3 million; the best option may simply be to let him stay in Louisville the whole year and let him declare for free agency in the off-season.

I am glad to see Patterson down in Louisville, as he clearly was a failure as a lead-off man. A good question is what do we do with him now? We have him under contract for the entire year, and I doubt we will be able to trade him. I don't think he will regain his batting stroke in Louisville, but it could certainly happen. Did Dusty give Corey Patterson a promise to recall him if he learned to hit much better at Louisville? He is off the Reds roster for now, but I am certain Dusty will seek any opportunity to bring him back. Jocketty gives me a lot of encouragement, as he took the necessary steps to get him off the roster. Let's hope Jocketty will resist the inevitable suggestions from Dusty to recall him with the smallest bit of improvement in AAA. I will be very interested to see how things develop in AAA with both Patterson and Dickerson.

AmarilloRed
05-29-2008, 02:02 AM
UPDATE: Patterson does, indeed, continue to make $3.5 million while he's at Triple-A. As a five-year veteran, he could have refused the option.

http://beta.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ab193e41e-dd9b-4943-bee9-3f812add8beb&p

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but we will still be paying Patterson the 3.5 million while he is at Louisville.

Spring~Fields
05-29-2008, 03:21 AM
http://beta.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3ab193e41e-dd9b-4943-bee9-3f812add8beb&p

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but we will still be paying Patterson the 3.5 million while he is at Louisville.

I wonder if Fay has the facts right, he was writing that Patterson went to Baker and volunteered, next Fay writes of Pattersons option to refuse. Doesn't sound like he volunteered. Maybe they should have sent him to the instruction league in that case.

Spring~Fields
05-29-2008, 03:43 AM
Dusty said in the pregame show with Marty that "Patterson can go down, work things out , and be back up in a few weeks."

Dread, Fear, Loathing creeping in.

LoganBuck I am just guessing, but I would guess that Patterson considering the results that he gets, and this old quote from an old article, just doesn't like leading off.

A couple quotes from an article in 2005

“Corey Patterson had long made his dislike for the leadoff position known, but a change of heart had the Cubs center fielder slotted into the No. 1 spot.
A few words from Vince Coleman, the Cubs Minor League base running instructor, nearly a month ago had an impact on Patterson and he rethought his opinion of wanting to hit almost anywhere in the lineup except first.”

“That is the thought that Baker has had all along in terms of Patterson's abilities. Being in the top spot of the lineup is the position that Baker has always envisioned for Patterson. Throughout Spring Training, Baker had hoped to make Patterson his main man at the position, but Patterson's wishes to bat at another spot forced Baker to hold off on putting him in the role.”

"Jerry Hairston had been the Cubs leadoff man on the days that he would start, with Neifi Perez filling in on Hairston's off-days. Though Baker thought Perez was doing a good job, Patterson's natural athletic tendencies fit better into the role."

"He can steal more, do more things and get more into the flow of the game, and help to control the flow of the game by what he does," Baker said of Patterson. "He's ready to be the igniter, and this is what we've been hoping for here full-time."

redsmetz
05-29-2008, 05:55 AM
Did Dusty give Corey Patterson a promise to recall him if he learned to hit much better at Louisville? He is off the Reds roster for now, but I am certain Dusty will seek any opportunity to bring him back. Jocketty gives me a lot of encouragement, as he took the necessary steps to get him off the roster. Let's hope Jocketty will resist the inevitable suggestions from Dusty to recall him with the smallest bit of improvement in AAA. I will be very interested to see how things develop in AAA with both Patterson and Dickerson.

I think sometimes we overstate the mechanizations of the internal workings of the Reds. At this point, as the roster is currently structured, there would be no place for Patterson except on the bench. It will be Griffey, Dunn & Bruce. I just don't think there are the whisperings in the GM's ear that some think. Sure they have discussions, but I don't think Dusty Baker is going to be chomping at the bit presently to get Patterson back up here.

Danny Serafini
05-29-2008, 09:19 AM
I wonder if Fay has the facts right, he was writing that Patterson went to Baker and volunteered, next Fay writes of Pattersons option to refuse. Doesn't sound like he volunteered. Maybe they should have sent him to the instruction league in that case.

Patterson had to agree to be optioned. Fay's just saying it's within Patterson's right to refuse the option because he has enough service time to do so. If Patterson really was against the idea he could've said no.

Always Red
05-29-2008, 09:27 AM
Patterson had to agree to be optioned. Fay's just saying it's within Patterson's right to refuse the option because he has enough service time to do so. If Patterson really was against the idea he could've said no.

Smart move by Patterson.

If he refuses to go, he collects the rest of his $3.5 million and goes home and begins his life's work.

If he can remake his swing just a bit, he will have a much longer career as a 4th or 5th OF, and never really have to "work" again.

flyer85
05-29-2008, 10:03 AM
A couple quotes from an article in 2005

“Corey Patterson had long made his dislike for the leadoff position known, but a change of heart had the Cubs center fielder slotted into the No. 1 spot.
A few words from Vince Coleman, the Cubs Minor League base running instructor, nearly a month ago had an impact on Patterson and he rethought his opinion of wanting to hit almost anywhere in the lineup except first.”

“That is the thought that Baker has had all along in terms of Patterson's abilities. Being in the top spot of the lineup is the position that Baker has always envisioned for Patterson. Throughout Spring Training, Baker had hoped to make Patterson his main man at the position, but Patterson's wishes to bat at another spot forced Baker to hold off on putting him in the role.”

"Jerry Hairston had been the Cubs leadoff man on the days that he would start, with Neifi Perez filling in on Hairston's off-days. Though Baker thought Perez was doing a good job, Patterson's natural athletic tendencies fit better into the role."

"He can steal more, do more things and get more into the flow of the game, and help to control the flow of the game by what he does," Baker said of Patterson. "He's ready to be the igniter, and this is what we've been hoping for here full-time."

Corey needs to go back to being the Corey he was in 2003-04, forget about being a leadoff type slap hitter and go back to taking a healthy cut and don't worry about the Ks. That was the time when he was a productive hitter.

He never has been, nor will he ever be a leadoff hitter. People have been trying to change Corey into their vision of what they thought he should be rather than what he is. He needs to say screw it and go back to being the player he was when he first came to the bigs and not let people try to change in him to something he isn't capable of being.

Raisor
05-29-2008, 10:18 AM
People have been trying to change Dunn into their vision of what they thought he should be rather than what he is.

:thumbup:

flyer85
05-29-2008, 10:23 AM
:thumbup:While making the point about Patterson here, I have said numerous times that people dislike Dunn because they have created a caricature of what think he should be and get upset when the real Dunn does conform to their construct.

REDREAD
05-29-2008, 01:53 PM
You're confusing that with options. What I'm guessing happened here is that Patterson had an option left but he had enough service time to refuse the option. He wanted to play so he either volunteered or was given the choice to go down to LOU or sit on the bench up here. A similar thing happened to Bret Boone back in 97. He was sucking so bad the Reds sent him down. He could have refused to go down but he didn't and as it turned out, he got called back up a day or so later. Ironically Aaron Boone was the one who replaced him.

I used the term "option" losely to mean getting sent down.
I don't know if Patterson was "optioned" or not. Did the transaction say he was optioned to Louisville, or did it say he was assigned to Louisville.
I think that might clear up this minor technicality.

It's my understanding that a player with no options left can sign a minor league contract and then be sent back and forth to AAA without passing through waivers. That's why some former ML players put escape clauses in their minor league contracts. Jerry Harrison is a good example. I believe his contract granted him free agency if he was not called up by a certain date.
If he didn't have that clause, I believe the Reds could've shuttled him up and down all year if they chose.. An example of this is Ricky Stone. I'm sure he was out of options. Yet he signed a minor league contract that allowed him to be shuffled up and down. Of course, maybe he still needed to pass through waivers. I am not 100% sure on that detail..








I realize this is all semantics. Corey's in AAA and it doesn't really matter how he got there.


Yeah, I agree, I got off on a tangent there.

REDREAD
05-29-2008, 01:56 PM
A fellow Redzonian just recently sent me this article. Guess what two current Reds players were playing for Dusty back in '05? Patterson and Hairston.

Just a simple coincidence they both just happened to end up on this Reds squad right after Baker is hired, and Baker didn't have any say (influence) in seeing it happen? ;)


Maybe Dusty suggested them, but it's ludicrous to think Wayne didn't have the final say in roster construction. The fact that Harriston was in AAA during this year's Wayne administration kind of disproves the theory that Dusty was the one calling who made the 25 man roster.

REDREAD
05-29-2008, 01:59 PM
Dusty said in the pregame show with Marty that "Patterson can go down, work things out , and be back up in a few weeks."

Dread, Fear, Loathing creeping in.

I heard that interview.. Didn't Marty ask Dusty if Patterson was ever going to come back? What was Dusty supposed to say "There's no chance in heck of him ever being recalled"?

Dusty said MAYBE he'd get called back up. You left out an important word. You make it sound as if Dusty said it was a given he'd be back up.. Dusty gave the usual disclaimer about how a lot depends on what the team's needs are, etc.

REDREAD
05-29-2008, 02:03 PM
I wonder if Fay has the facts right, he was writing that Patterson went to Baker and volunteered, next Fay writes of Pattersons option to refuse. Doesn't sound like he volunteered. Maybe they should have sent him to the instruction league in that case.

I believe Dusty when Dusty said that Patterson volunteered. I heard Dusty say on the radio that Corey approached him and volunteered. Dusty said it was a relief that Corey volunteered, because if he didn't they would've had to have a talk with him within days.. That's good enough for me.

I don't know what Fay said, but I guess Patterson had the choice of refusing the demotion and becoming a FA..

Chip R
05-29-2008, 02:12 PM
It's my understanding that a player with no options left can sign a minor league contract and then be sent back and forth to AAA without passing through waivers. That's why some former ML players put escape clauses in their minor league contracts. Jerry Harrison is a good example. I believe his contract granted him free agency if he was not called up by a certain date.

If he didn't have that clause, I believe the Reds could've shuttled him up and down all year if they chose.. An example of this is Ricky Stone. I'm sure he was out of options. Yet he signed a minor league contract that allowed him to be shuffled up and down. Of course, maybe he still needed to pass through waivers. I am not 100% sure on that detail.



Once a player who signs a minor league contract is promoted to the big leagues, that minor league deal becomes null and void and he has to sign a major league contract. unless it is a split contract. Split contracts are basically major league contracts but are used for players with options and pays them one salary when they are in the majors and a lesser one when they are in the minors.

It is rare for a player with options left to sign a minor league deal because they usually are still on that club's 40 man roster and they don't need to be released to get off the 25 man roster. In Patterson's case, he had options but the Orioles didn't want to waste a 40 man roster spot on him and he probably didn't want to get sent down to AAA so they just released him. As I thought, it was like the Bret Boone situation where a veteran player who has options left can refuse to be sent down and he can declare free agency. I'd say most of the guys on the roster has options. Dunn and Jr. should since when they were called up, they were called up for good. I doubt Brandon Phillips does.

You might want to Google Rob Neyer's transaction FAQs. A link may be in the archives too. It's good information to know.

REDREAD
05-29-2008, 02:18 PM
Split contracts are basically major league contracts but are used for players with options and pays them one salary when they are in the majors and a lesser one when they are in the minors.


Are you sure about this? I think it's possible to sign a player with no options to a split contract.. Maybe it's called something else, but I think it's possible.




It is rare for a player with options left to sign a minor league deal because they usually are still on that club's 40 man roster and they don't need to be released to get off the 25 man roster. In Patterson's case, he had options but the Orioles didn't want to waste a 40 man roster spot on him


I think Patterson was a Free agent. Boras was asking Baltimore for a 3 year deal.. Something like 24 million. Baltimore decided that wasn't wise.
The Reds waited Patterson out and got him much cheaper than what Boras wanted. (90% sure that Patterson has Boras for an agent, but regardless, they asked Baltimore for a lot of years and money).

westofyou
05-29-2008, 02:22 PM
http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060710&content_id=1550556&vkey=news_tex&fext=.jsp&c_id=tex

How do split contracts (contracts where a player makes one salary if he's in the Majors, and another if he's in the Minors) work? Are split contracts done for every player on the 40-man roster who has options remaining, or just some? And for the average player with a split contract, how much does he make while in the Minors?
-- Adam, Houston

A: Texas is among the organizations that give split contracts to all of its pre-arbitration players on the 40-man roster. The player's contract calls for a daily rate for days spent on the active big league roster and another daily rate for days spent in the Minors.

The daily rate for time spent with the big club is calculated by dividing the player's Major League salary by 183.

The Minor League salary for a player on a split contract depends on his status the previous season. A player who is on the 40-man for the first time will generally receive an annual Minor League salary along these lines: $12,000 for Class A; $14,000 for Class AA; and $16,000 for Class AAA. For a player who was on the 40-man the previous season, the minimum Minor League salary is $54,500.

A Minor Leaguer with prior big league service could, however, earn more than $54,500 on the Minor League half of his split. If 80 percent of his total earnings under a Major League contract from the previous season is greater than $54,500, then that figure instead becomes his Minor League salary.

LoganBuck
05-29-2008, 02:39 PM
I heard that interview.. Didn't Marty ask Dusty if Patterson was ever going to come back? What was Dusty supposed to say "There's no chance in heck of him ever being recalled"?

Dusty said MAYBE he'd get called back up. You left out an important word. You make it sound as if Dusty said it was a given he'd be back up.. Dusty gave the usual disclaimer about how a lot depends on what the team's needs are, etc.

I am going to disagree with you REDREAD. I heard it as he is going down to work things out and then he WILL be back. My disdain for both Baker and Patterson may be clouding my mind and auditory relays, but I am worried about what I heard.

Chip R
05-29-2008, 02:41 PM
Are you sure about this? I think it's possible to sign a player with no options to a split contract.. Maybe it's called something else, but I think it's possible.

It is possible. I should have said they are usually used on players with options. It's rare to do it because players with options don't have to go through waivers. Guys who are arbitration eligible usually are on those kind of deals.


I think Patterson was a Free agent. Boras was asking Baltimore for a 3 year deal.. Something like 24 million. Baltimore decided that wasn't wise.

The Reds waited Patterson out and got him much cheaper than what Boras wanted. (90% sure that Patterson has Boras for an agent, but regardless, they asked Baltimore for a lot of years and money).


You're right, he was a FA. He was either released outright or they tried to option him and he refused.

WebScorpion
05-29-2008, 03:43 PM
I am going to disagree with you REDREAD. I heard it as he is going down to work things out and then he WILL be back. My disdain for both Baker and Patterson may be clouding my mind and auditory relays, but I am worried about what I heard.
The only way he WILL be back is if Walt Jocketty calls him back...That may be Walt's only method of making sure Dusty doesn't bat him in the leadoff spot.

*BaseClogger*
05-30-2008, 11:56 PM
Javy has some value as a PH and he does decently in that role. Next it would be nice to swing a deal for Pena from the Braves and give him a try behind the plate.


The Royals claimed catcher Brayan Peña off waivers from the Braves this afternoon. Peña, who is four for 14 as a pinch-hitter with the Braves this season, will join the Royals for tonight’s game against the Indians.

Peña, a switch-hitter who throws right-handed, was added to the 40-man roster after pitcher Luke Hudson was transferred to the 60-day disabled list. The Royals will need to make another roster move today to add Peña to the 25-man active roster.