Griffey getting heavy All-Star votes...

[Matt700wlw]

...he doesn't deserve to go to the All-Star game this year, as of right now, sorry. Things could change, sure.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080525&content_id=2770025&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

[Patrick Bateman]

The days of players actually having to play well to make the all-star game are over. Honestly, I'd enjoy watching Griffey in the game, after all the times he couldn't make it after injuries. So he has my vote too, his career makes it justifiable IMO.

[Caseyfan21]

More of a career achievement award. The fans have a right to choose who they want to see.

[M2]

The fans have a right to choose who they want to see.

Totally agreed. Yet if I'm Walt Jocketty, I'm looking into where those votes are coming from to help make the case for trading Jr. to a franchise where Jr. might be a strong draw.

[Caseyfan21]

Totally agreed. Yet if I'm Walt Jocketty, I'm looking into where those votes are coming from to help make the case for trading Jr. to a franchise where Jr. might be a strong draw.

:laugh::laugh:

Absolutely. You can bet ol' Walt has an intern trying to chart All Star votes vs. location to present that info to the Seattle (or wherever else) GM.

[RedsManRick]

Griffey is this year's Cal Ripken apparently. Hopefully he gets a grooved fastball too...

[Chip R]

Problem with this is that if Jr. gets voted in, it could be at the expense of Volquez or Cordero or Phillips or even Dunn since every team gets at least one representative. Of course they could pick as many Reds as they want but that usually isn't the case and the Reds usually have their 1 representative and that's it.

[reds44]

Unless Volquez falls apart, he's going no matter what.

[Chip R]

Unless Volquez falls apart, he's going no matter what.


It seems likely but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. But I tell you, the Reds have got some guys who could make a pretty good case to be in the team, unlike in past years. All those guys I mentioned and just perhaps if Jay Bruce can put up numbers close to what he was putting up in AAA, he might have a shot as well. A long one, perhaps, but a shot anyway.

[gm]

Could this be the year that Adam Dunn finally gets into the HR derby?

(Nah, it'll be next year when he's playing in a different uniform...grrr)

I bet Josh Hamilton will be in the AL side

[savafan]

How many Reds made the 1990 All Star team? I'm thinking 5. Dibble, Myers, Larkin, Sabo, and Armstrong?

I know that was a whole different era, but still...

[guttle11]

No offense to Junior, but that's wrong. He's my all-time favorite player, but I hope someone jumps over him.

[fearofpopvol1]

Second Base
RANK PLAYER NAME NL TEAM TOTAL VOTES
1. Utley, C. Philles 537,788
2. Matsui, K. Astros 182,827
3. DeRosa, M. Cubs 178,595
4. Uggla, D. Marlins 125,745
5. Castillo, L. Mets 123,346


What's wrong with this picture?

[dabvu2498]

Second Base
RANK PLAYER NAME NL TEAM TOTAL VOTES
1. Utley, C. Philles 537,788
2. Matsui, K. Astros 182,827
3. DeRosa, M. Cubs 178,595
4. Uggla, D. Marlins 125,745
5. Castillo, L. Mets 123,346


What's wrong with this picture?

Kaz Matsui and Mark DeRosa ahead of Dan Uggla.

;)

[westofyou]

The fans have a right to choose who they want to see.

That's why the AS Game is for kids and causal fans, and that's also why using it as a barometer for who is good and who is not is completely wrong on numerous levels.

[REDREAD]

The days of players actually having to play well to make the all-star game are over. .

Ever since fan voting was enacted, it became a popluarity contest.
Ripkin and Ozzie Smith didn't deserve their last few appearances either.

I'm glad Jr is getting all these votes in what might be his last year. At least people outside of Cincy still appreciate every thing he's done. For the most part, people in Cincy can't wait to get rid of him.

[Sea Ray]

That's why the AS Game is for kids and causal fans, and that's also why using it as a barometer for who is good and who is not is completely wrong on numerous levels.

At this point it looks like the voting is a little top heavy in Cubs voting so my guess is there must have been a lot of Cubs home games in there, but in defense of the fans, most of their choices are pretty good. They have Berkman, Utley, Chipper, Fukodome, Hanley Ramirez and Soto in the NL starting lineup and I don't have a big problem with any of those choices. Griffey is the only blatant miss on the fans part.

[Sea Ray]

At least people outside of Cincy still appreciate every thing he's done. For the most part, people in Cincy can't wait to get rid of him.

Yeah 'cause we have to put up with his putrid numbers in the middle of our lineup while eating a big chunk of our payroll.

[membengal]

Good guess on Cubs home games. They have had 10 more home games than road games thus far. Eventually, they will have to leave the north side...

[RedsBaron]

Guys such as Ted Williams and Stan Musial and Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle generally kept getting selected to the All Star game even after they began to decline as players. If Junior is named to the NL All Star team it wouldn't be that unusual.

[Jpup]

Aaron Harang better make the All-Star team this year. It's simply crazy that he hasn't made it yet.

[Chip R]

Aaron Harang better make the All-Star team this year. It's simply crazy that he hasn't made it yet.


No way he's makiing it with that record.

[Jpup]

No way he's makiing it with that record.

I know and it's BS.

[OldRightHander]

I agree that it seems to be Ripken all over again. The fans appreciate his career and they're rewarding him at the end. In all honesty, he should probably just announce his retirement for the end of the season. Let the fans around the league give him a bit of a love fest and then bow out before his skills diminish farther. I don't see him doing that though. It would also be nice to see him get a chance at a WS ring before he's done. Any contending teams that could use him?

[Caveat Emperor]

On my computer, on the RedsZone main screen -- the "recent post" section listed this topic as "Griffey getting heavy..."

[OnBaseMachine]

I also think Harang should be an All-Star (should have been the last two or three years) but he won't make ti due to his 2-6 record as Chip pointed out. Edinson Volquez deserves it more than anybody though.

The Reds have a handful of guys who should make it but obviously won't:

Adam Dunn
Aaron Harang
Edinson Volquez
Brandon Phillips
Joey Votto (too many other 1B)

[REDREAD]

Yeah 'cause we have to put up with his putrid numbers in the middle of our lineup while eating a big chunk of our payroll.

I don't mind watching Jr in his twilight years. It's not as if we have anyone significantly better to play right now (Patterson, Freel, Hopper?)

The Reds knew when they signed Jr to this deal that he probably wouldn't be a superstar at age 38 (or however old he is). Jr also probably could've gotten 30-60 million more as a free agent.

In other words, Jr isn't the reason this team is struggling. I'm going to enjoy watching what might be his last season as a Red, just as I enjoyed Larkin's last season..

Not calling you out, but I get a bit tired of the constant complaining that Jr's salary is dragging down the team. With the deferred money, his real cost was 9 million/year (source: John Allen). Not that big of a millstone, considering Cast has already eaten about 6 million in Hat, Castro, and Stanton. If you are looking for wasted payflex, Wayne has done much worse than giving Jr one year too many.

People couldn't wait for Larkin to leave, because all this money would be freed up to fix the team. Well, Larkin left, and the team did not improve.

[REDREAD]

I agree that it seems to be Ripken all over again. The fans appreciate his career and they're rewarding him at the end. In all honesty, he should probably just announce his retirement for the end of the season. Let the fans around the league give him a bit of a love fest and then bow out before his skills diminish farther. I don't see him doing that though. It would also be nice to see him get a chance at a WS ring before he's done. Any contending teams that could use him?


I kind of disagree with this. Why should Jr be obligated to announce his retirement now? It might jeopardize his 4 million buyout for next year, which he is more than entitled to get. Not only that, but shouldn't he be free to keep his options open for next year.

If the fans don't enjoy him now, his retirement announcement won't make them appreciate him any better. Heck, it will probably only cause fans calling for him to retire tommorrow..

[membengal]

I don't mind watching Jr in his twilight years. It's not as if we have anyone significantly better to play right now (Patterson, Freel, Hopper?)




Bruce to RF. Freel to CF. That would be my preference at this point.

[REDREAD]

Bruce to RF. Freel to CF. That would be my preference at this point.


But is it going to make that much of a difference? Not IMO. Freel will wear down and be hitting worse than Jr, which will offset the defensive gain.
IMO, Freel is not that great of an OF. Sure, he's faster than Jr, but he's a lot dumber too. A lot of his attempted diving catches end up as doubles or triples which should be singles..

Freel might kill Bruce or Dunn out there as well by running into them.

[Sea Ray]

Not calling you out, but I get a bit tired of the constant complaining that Jr's salary is dragging down the team. With the deferred money, his real cost was 9 million/year (source: John Allen). Not that big of a millstone, considering Cast has already eaten about 6 million in Hat, Castro, and Stanton. If you are looking for wasted payflex, Wayne has done much worse than giving Jr one year too many.



IMO Jr has dragged down the team this year. Due to his superstar status it's difficult to move Jr's slowing bat down in the order like Dunn was. His defense has been atrocious and he also clogs up the bases. I'm not sure which economic model you're using to define Jr's salary at $9mill. but it seems to me the Reds are commited to more than that.

I appreciate all Jr's done in his career and I'm grateful he wanted to come to Cincinnati and I wholeheartedly supported Bowden's deal in bringing him here. Due to little on Griff's part this "thing" didn't work out. It just didn't. And this year his game has fallen another notch. I'm more than ready to move on.

[Sea Ray]

I'd really like to see him go somewhere to win a ring but I doubt any contenders are interested in him.

[membengal]

Redread:

It would make a difference in my opinion. And I guess that is an agree to disagree point. Bruce in RF shores up the awfulness that has been the RF defense with Jr. out there. Freel/Hairston in CF, while NOT great, at least can get to the occasional ball in the gap (and, yes, I absolutely acknowledge that Freel on more than a few occasions plays like a brain dead mongoose in hurling arond the OF after balls he cannot get to and misplays the snot out of them). Still, even acknolwedging that, it is an upgrade. IF Jr. were hitting, even a little, still, then I would agree. But the same issue that he is having in RF with defense, legs appear gone, is killing him at the plate as well.

This has certainly been covered elsewhere, but I am with those that honor Jr.'s service to the Reds and to the game of baseball, and wish he could find his way to an AL club, and soon, to play out his last few years as a DH.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

Hard to believe that Phillips isn't even top 5 for 2b, even if he doesn't get a lot of shine in the limelight. Kaz Matsui, seriously?

Griffey is understandable, even if he is having a bad year.

[OldRightHander]

I kind of disagree with this. Why should Jr be obligated to announce his retirement now? It might jeopardize his 4 million buyout for next year, which he is more than entitled to get. Not only that, but shouldn't he be free to keep his options open for next year.

If the fans don't enjoy him now, his retirement announcement won't make them appreciate him any better. Heck, it will probably only cause fans calling for him to retire tommorrow..

I don't know. I'm a sentimental old sot and I like it when you see a player go out that way; everyone knows it's his last season, have something special at the end of the season, etc. I realize that's kind of rare these days. Guys usually try to hang on (who can blame them) and then end up announcing their retirement because they're sitting at home after not being signed. It's kind of anti-climactic that way. I was speaking more out of sentimentality than practicality.

[RedsManRick]

I really have no problem with lifetime achievement all-star votes. In my mind, the All-Star game is about the fans choosing the players they like the most all getting to play on the same team. It is NOT a competition of the best players from each league playing each other.

It's precisely this distinction, as embodied by the way the rosters are selected and the game is managed which make the "this time it counts" jazz so ridiculous. The all-star game isn't supposed to count. It's supposed to be a treat for the fans to see their favorite players all play together.

[Nugget]

I'd call out all those who say that Junior making the all-star game through popular vote is stopping another deserving RED from being there. If people don't vote for Phillips, Volquez etc. its the fault of REDS fans not Junior. It appears that Junior has now become the whipping boy de jour for Redszone. Yes he has aged and is not playing at his best at the moment but to say he is the cause of all the REDS problems is irrational.

[membengal]

I'd call out all those who say that Junior making the all-star game through popular vote is stopping another deserving RED from being there. If people don't vote for Phillips, Volquez etc. its the fault of REDS fans not Junior. It appears that Junior has now become the whipping boy de jour for Redszone. Yes he has aged and is not playing at his best at the moment but to say he is the cause of all the REDS problems is irrational.

Who said that? What strawman are you creating?

[Matt700wlw]

I'd call out all those who say that Junior making the all-star game through popular vote is stopping another deserving RED from being there. If people don't vote for Phillips, Volquez etc. its the fault of REDS fans not Junior. It appears that Junior has now become the whipping boy de jour for Redszone. Yes he has aged and is not playing at his best at the moment but to say he is the cause of all the REDS problems is irrational.

He is far from the reason why the Reds haven't had a winning year in 7 years....in fact, very little is because of him. He doesn't pitch, he's not a cheap owner or a GM that said they would build a team around him and failed to do so....which he was told when he agreed to come here for LESS money.

It's just time to cut your losses (no, not literally cut him) and move a different direction. He isn't part of that direction. He's part of the past.

[Nugget]

Sure he is a candidate to be traded or even not have is option picked up next year - but still no reason to hound him out of town.

Plenty of threads about ways to get rid of Junior, demoted down the order, can't play right field, is being killed at the plate - Junior for all his "faults" still plays a decent right field - and has contributed significantly with RBIs.

[fearofpopvol1]

Kaz Matsui and Mark DeRosa ahead of Dan Uggla.

;)

True!

I do think Utley is the best 2B in the NL, but how is Phillips behind Castillo??? That is the biggest joke I've ever seen. Him being behind DeRosa and Kaz is too, but Castillo?? Wow.

[Blitz Dorsey]

I didn't even know they were having a Seniors All-Star Game this year.

Oh, you mean the real All-Star game? Really? Griffey? Really?

[Blitz Dorsey]

Sure he is a candidate to be traded or even not have is option picked up next year - but still no reason to hound him out of town.

Plenty of threads about ways to get rid of Junior, demoted down the order, can't play right field, is being killed at the plate - Junior for all his "faults" still plays a decent right field - and has contributed significantly with RBIs.

Significantly with RBIs? For a No. 3 hitter? Really? I would disagree, but that's OK.

Plays a decent defensive right field? Really? I would go more with "well below average" but that's just me.

[REDREAD]

IMO Jr has dragged down the team this year.

Then by that definition, many other players are also dragging down the team.

Dunn only OPS 811 in the month of April, despite finishing very strong, for example..
EdE is producing only slightly better offense than Jr, and his defense is worse.
Freel is only OPS 751, and that's likely to decline if you start him every day..

Junior is one of several players struggling. It's debatable whether Freel is an upgrade Freel really stunk in 2006 when he had the chance to replace Kearns.. I'll take my chances with Jr coming back. He's been improving at the plate (although still not up to par).

In any event, you'll get your wish after this season. Jr will be gone. We'll still have a problem in RF (possibly a bigger one). Given that we aren't in the pennant race, it's no big deal for me to let Jr finish out this year. Like it or not, he's still a drawing ticket (look at the all star voting), so he's not going to get benched or DFAed. No one is going to trade for him... so there's no point in people constantly lobbying for the Reds to dump him.. My point is, let's just enjoy his last year. Accept his warts and be glad he decided to come here. We'll get plenty of chances to see random OFs in the next couple of years, I'm afraid..








I'm not sure which economic model you're using to define Jr's salary at $9mill. but it seems to me the Reds are commited to more than that.


It was a direct quote from John Allen, right after Jr signed his deal. He praised Jr for being so generous. He said the deferred money made the deal really valued at 9 million/year instead of the average 12 million/year...



I appreciate all Jr's done in his career and I'm grateful he wanted to come to Cincinnati and I wholeheartedly supported Bowden's deal in bringing him here. Due to little on Griff's part this "thing" didn't work out. It just didn't. And this year his game has fallen another notch. I'm more than ready to move on.

Ok, then just relax. He'll be gone soon enough.. You only have about 100 games left where you have to watch Jr play, then he's gone.. It's not as if Jr is keeping Bruce on the bench. He's keeping Freel on the bench. No big deal.

[REDREAD]

Redread:

It would make a difference in my opinion. And I guess that is an agree to disagree point. Bruce in RF shores up the awfulness that has been the RF defense with Jr. out there. Freel/Hairston in CF, while NOT great, at least can get to the occasional ball in the gap .

Maybe it's an uprade.. But it's so marginal, I question whether it even amounts to 2 wins over an entire season.

Keep in mind that when Freel plays an extended amount of time, his OBP vanishes. When he played the last month of 2006, he was totally abissmal.
Hariston is riding a nice hot streak now, but he will revert back to his norms as well.

Meanwhile, Jr has improved his hitting a bit of late. It's still not outstanding, but he's hitting much better than he did in April.

If we still had Hamilton and had the option of playing Hamilton/Bruce/Dunn, then there'd be a much stronger argument to bench Jr.. But for Freel/Hariston? Not worth it. Not even sure it's an upgrade at all.

[Chip R]

I'd call out all those who say that Junior making the all-star game through popular vote is stopping another deserving RED from being there. If people don't vote for Phillips, Volquez etc. its the fault of REDS fans not Junior.


Since I was the first person to bring it up, I'll respond to that. One flaw in your "logic" is that fans don't vote for pitchers. That's up to the managers to decide. Secondly, it's always going to be tough to vote a Red in the game - especially if they are going against a player from a major market or if that player is Japanese.

I'm all for Jr. making the All Star team but I'd rather he didn't do it at the expense of another Red. Plus, if you believe the motto of the ASG, they are playing to win. Shouldn't the best players play in the game? Personally, I regard it as an exhibition but you can't say it's an exhibition and then use it to decide home field advantage in the World Series.

[Sea Ray]

Ok, then just relax. He'll be gone soon enough.. You only have about 100 games left where you have to watch Jr play, then he's gone.. It's not as if Jr is keeping Bruce on the bench. He's keeping Freel on the bench. No big deal.

OK, then how 'bout a compromise. You OK with moving him down to 7th in the order until he comes around like Dunn did?

[REDREAD]

OK, then how 'bout a compromise. You OK with moving him down to 7th in the order until he comes around like Dunn did?

Sure, I'm fine with that. I like Dusty, but there's a legit gripe about his lineups.

[REDREAD]

Since I was the first person to bring it up, I'll respond to that. One flaw in your "logic" is that fans don't vote for pitchers. That's up to the managers to decide. Secondly, it's always going to be tough to vote a Red in the game - especially if they are going against a player from a major market or if that player is Japanese.

I'm all for Jr. making the All Star team but I'd rather he didn't do it at the expense of another Red. Plus, if you believe the motto of the ASG, they are playing to win. Shouldn't the best players play in the game? Personally, I regard it as an exhibition but you can't say it's an exhibition and then use it to decide home field advantage in the World Series.


The whole "it counts now" thing was just an ill advised gimmick by Selig to try to get ratings up. However, I guess it makes about as much sense as alternating home field advantage every year between leagues.. that makes it pretty random whether you get home field advantage as you generally can't pick the year you contend..

The game is obviously a joke. The managers are given huge rosters and are under pressure to use as many players as possible. They also have to have one rep from every team, so the kids that are fans of the losing teams will have one guy to root for (and a reason to tune in).

Outside of Volquez, I don't see any Red that is a no brainer for the allstar game. The bar should be set a lot higher than it is.. IMO, Dunn and Harang are having good years, but not all star seasons.

There's a lot of sound reasons to have the fans vote for whoever they want. The game certainly isn't about a competition to decide which league is better.. It's a glorified exhibition game and the fan voting helps bring in better ratings. If the fans want to see Jr instead of a lesser known guy that has superior numbers, let them. Most baseball fans aren't nearly as hardcore as us.

[pahster]

Outside of Volquez, I don't see any Red that is a no brainer for the allstar game. The bar should be set a lot higher than it is.. IMO, Dunn and Harang are having good years, but not all star seasons.


Among NL outfielders, Dunn is 5th in OPS, 5th in SLG, 4th in OBP, 2nd in walks, 6th in RBI (not that I care), 1st in HR, and 13th in runs scored (likely a function of his batting low in the lineup). He's 6th in RC27, 3rd in ISOP, and 2nd in SECA. We've still got a ways to go, but if he keeps it up, Dunn will have built a strong case for another All Star appearance. Of course, he does that nearly every year and has only made it once so far.

Harang probably hasn't been quite good enough, though there is still plenty of time to change that. His W/L record won't do him any favors.

[Sea Ray]

The whole "it counts now" thing was just an ill advised gimmick by Selig to try to get ratings up. However, I guess it makes about as much sense as alternating home field advantage every year between leagues.. that makes it pretty random whether you get home field advantage as you generally can't pick the year you contend..

The game is obviously a joke. The managers are given huge rosters and are under pressure to use as many players as possible. They also have to have one rep from every team, so the kids that are fans of the losing teams will have one guy to root for (and a reason to tune in).



I'm hugely disappointed that the game isn't played "like it counts" now. It sure was in the 70s. If the NL was playing to win there's no way you leave Albert Pujols on the bench in the 9th inning with the winning run on base.

[GAC]

That's why the AS Game is for kids and causal fans, and that's also why using it as a barometer for who is good and who is not is completely wrong on numerous levels.

Yep. The game is a farce, and for Bud Selig to have WS home field advantage determined by the winner of this popularity contest chosen by the fans is a crime IMO.