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View Full Version : Griffey need moved down in the batting order??



WVPacman
05-28-2008, 11:58 PM
Hey I have been thinking about this for a while now and I think JR needs moved down to the sixth or seveth spot in the lineup.Just hear me out!! We all can see that JR is getting older and his HR power is quickly leaving him and he has basicly tuned into a singles and doubles hitter.So why not move him down in Vottos spot and move Votto up to third??Votto is doing a decent job down there but I think the move could help Griffey out alot.I would like to see Dunn bat forth but you can't with three straight left handed batters in a row.Maybe im way off but where would you like to see him in the lineup?

1)Hairston/Freel
2)Bruce
3)Votto
4)Phillips
5)Dunn
6)EE
7)Griffey
8)catcher
9)Pitcher

*BaseClogger*
05-28-2008, 11:59 PM
Dunn should bat #3 before Votto...

WVPacman
05-29-2008, 12:02 AM
Dunn should bat #3 before Votto...


1)Hairston/Freel
2)Bruce
3)Dunn
4)Phillips
5)Votto
6)EE
7)Griffey
8)catcher
9)Pitcher


How about that?

redsrule2500
05-29-2008, 12:04 AM
1)Hairston/Freel
2)Bruce
3)Phillips
4)Dunn
5)Votto
6)Griffey
7)EE
8)catcher
9)Pitcher

Fixed:thumbup:

OnBaseMachine
05-29-2008, 12:07 AM
I think both Dunn (.967 OPS) and Votto (.913 OPS) need moved up in the order. Those two guys are two of the best hitters on the team but are continually wasted away in the five and seven spots on a nightly basis. I would really like to see Dunn hitting third or fourth and Votto fifth.

Hairston
Bruce
Dunn
Phillips
Votto
Griffey
Encarnacion
Bako/Ross

I don't like Hairston playing SS but Baker seems content on him playing there so I'd lead him off until he cools down.

WVPacman
05-29-2008, 12:14 AM
I think both Dunn (.967 OPS) and Votto (.913 OPS) need moved up in the order. Those two guys are two of the best hitters on the team but are continually wasted away in the five and seven spots on a nightly basis. I would really like to see Dunn hitting third or fourth and Votto fifth.

Hairston
Bruce
Dunn
Phillips
Votto
Griffey
Encarnacion
Bako/Ross

I don't like Hairston playing SS but Baker seems content on him playing there so I'd lead him off until he cools down.


I think yours is the best as of now!! Griffey would be better in the 6th hole and EE next.I look for Hairston to cool down but if he don't then he has to stay as the leadoff hitter.I just think moving Griffey down would help him better with him being 38 years old.Like you said Dunn and Votto needs moved up b/c they are hitting the cover off the ball.

AmarilloRed
05-29-2008, 01:24 AM
It is most likely academic, as Dusty is giving him the third slot out of respect. On the assumption that he can be moved however here is my lineup:

Hairston/ Keppinger when he comes back
Bruce
Dunn
Phillips
Votto
Edwin
Griffey
Catcher
Pitcher

kaldaniels
05-29-2008, 01:29 AM
Don't tell this to the rest of the league, but Jr. is still serving as good protection for the #2 hitter. I think it will be amazing to see what Bruce can do at #2 getting Jr's protection...as long as it lasts.

RedsManRick
05-29-2008, 01:32 AM
Welcome to the party.

Will M
05-29-2008, 02:41 AM
RF Hairston
CF Bruce
LF Dunn
2B Phillips
1B Votto
3B Edwin ( for now )
C Bako/Ross platoon
SS Janish
Pitcher

Griffey needs to hit 7th in the AL as a DH

HumnHilghtFreel
05-29-2008, 02:47 AM
Don't tell this to the rest of the league, but Jr. is still serving as good protection for the #2 hitter. I think it will be amazing to see what Bruce can do at #2 getting Jr's protection...as long as it lasts.

I don't quite see that. I know it's only 2 games, but he's been pitched around a little bit already with Jr. behind him

redsrule2500
05-29-2008, 03:52 AM
Don't tell this to the rest of the league, but Jr. is still serving as good protection for the #2 hitter. I think it will be amazing to see what Bruce can do at #2 getting Jr's protection...as long as it lasts.

I don't see him getting much protection with a .250 5 HR hitter behind him.

mth123
05-29-2008, 06:03 AM
Griffey needs to hit 7th in the AL as a DH

I like this idea the best so far.

RedsBaron
05-29-2008, 06:35 AM
Don't tell this to the rest of the league, but Jr. is still serving as good protection for the #2 hitter. I think it will be amazing to see what Bruce can do at #2 getting Jr's protection...as long as it lasts.

Bruce has already drawn four walks in his first two games. I'd say if anything pitchers are "pitching around" Bruce to get to the .250 punch and judy hitter who comes next
I really do like Junior, I really do, but what he did a decade ago is no justification to keep him in the 2008 lineup, batting third.

redsrule2500
05-29-2008, 07:03 AM
I would honestly be somewhat embarrassed in front of my teammates for the double standards if I was Jr. I would appreciate it, but at the same time feel dumb in front of everyone in the clubhouse.

Anyone else agree/disagree/anything?

Edskin
05-29-2008, 07:58 AM
I would honestly be somewhat embarrassed in front of my teammates for the double standards if I was Jr. I would appreciate it, but at the same time feel dumb in front of everyone in the clubhouse.

Anyone else agree/disagree/anything?

Agree. It's not Junior's fault Dusty feels the need to "respect" him by batting him third. The "respect" thing is beyond absurd.

Dusty is the manager. He should be the top voice in the clubhouse. He SHOULD be able to come to Junior and explain that he has a role on the team, but no longer in that spot in the order. If Junior throws a tantrum, then that's Junior's problem.

Unless Junior has threatened to cause a scene if he is dropped (which I doubt), I place the blame here soley on Dusty for not having the cojones to make the move.

Always Red
05-29-2008, 08:17 AM
Agree. It's not Junior's fault Dusty feels the need to "respect" him by batting him third. The "respect" thing is beyond absurd.

Dusty is the manager. He should be the top voice in the clubhouse. He SHOULD be able to come to Junior and explain that he has a role on the team, but no longer in that spot in the order. If Junior throws a tantrum, then that's Junior's problem.

Unless Junior has threatened to cause a scene if he is dropped (which I doubt), I place the blame here soley on Dusty for not having the cojones to make the move.

I agree; it's not Junior's fault- after all, he is just fulfilling the terms of his contract with the Reds.

Junior does deserve a ton of respect for what he has done in the game, no question.

But- Dusty needs to first respect the game, and do what is best for his team. He needs to do the same thing Joe Torre and the Dodgers have done with Andruw Jones, and first at least drop him in the order.

BuckeyeRedleg
05-29-2008, 08:54 AM
Wasn't respect (or fear) the thing that kept Junior playing CF 1-2 more years when it was obvious he couldn't?

Spring~Fields
05-29-2008, 09:42 AM
Don't tell this to the rest of the league, but Jr. is still serving as good protection for the #2 hitter. I think it will be amazing to see what Bruce can do at #2 getting Jr's protection...as long as it lasts.

I have the feeling that it would be better if Adam Dunn was shown some respect and if he batted behind Jay Bruce. At least some respect for what Dunn has produced for the Reds recently versus what someone produced years ago.

Dunn last seven - .400 .556 .900 1.456

Spring~Fields
05-29-2008, 10:06 AM
Wasn't respect (or fear) the thing that kept Junior playing CF 1-2 more years when it was obvious he couldn't?

Good point.

I think that many of us would respect Junior more if we read where he had gone to his manger and asked to bat down in the order for the benefit of the team until he can show that he still deserves respect as a current day batter. Especially in light of his managers comment that he "bats third out of respect" and that "Junior has been batting third for 20 years".

It would follow then that the manager and organization may be waiting to see if Junior will make the correct decision. Adam Dunn, Edwin Encarcion and Joey Votto along with the team and fans might benefit from Junior batting behind some of them too.

Far East
05-29-2008, 12:12 PM
Baseball musings, which makes no use of L-R splits or base running, and which factors in only SLG and OBP, produces this lineup.

Bruce's ungodly numbers just from two games helps this lineup score a whopping 7.208 theoretical runs per game.

Bruce (leading off in all of the 30 best lineups)
Dunn (batting 2nd in 17 of the 30)
Griffey (batting 3rd in 20 of the 30)
Votto (batting cleanup in 14 of the 30)
Hairston (here in 10 of the 30)
Phillips (here in 10 of the 30)
Encarnacion (here in 12 of the 30)
Pitcher (hitting 8th in all 30)
Ross (batting 9th in 27 of the 30)

RedsManRick
05-29-2008, 12:34 PM
What's interesting to me is the other "respect" message being sent. Dusty is essentially telling his players that once you have a good reputation, your actual performance is no longer relevant. If I was a young guy, I would be upset realizing that there's nothing I can do to earn a key role.

flyer85
05-29-2008, 12:39 PM
What's interesting to me is the other "respect" message being sent. Dusty is essentially telling his players that once you have a good reputation, your actual performance is no longer relevant. If I was a young guy, I would be upset realizing that there's nothing I can do to earn a key role.I am not defending Dusty but Jr isn't just anybody. In the past there have been rumors that he is sensitive and tends to take things personally which makes doing something that will be perceived as a slight somewhat tricky. I honestly don't know if there is a good way to handle the Jr situation other than sending him somewhere else.

dabvu2498
05-29-2008, 12:43 PM
What's interesting to me is the other "respect" message being sent. Dusty is essentially telling his players that once you have a good reputation, your actual performance is no longer relevant. If I was a young guy, I would be upset realizing that there's nothing I can do to earn a key role.

You mean unlike Jay Bruce getting to hit in the #2 hole, right?

RedsManRick
05-29-2008, 12:51 PM
I am not defending Dusty but Jr isn't just anybody. In the past there have been rumors that he is sensitive and tends to take things personally which makes doing something that will be perceived as a slight somewhat tricky. I honestly don't know if there is a good way to handle the Jr situation other than sending him somewhere else.

I guess at this point, I don't care if Junior's feelings get hurt by batting 5th. What do we have to lose at this point? Do we think he's going to stop being a clubhouse leader?

I bet you that Junior would rather win batting down in the order than lose batting 3rd. It's the classic Dusty issue -- putting the wishes of the player ahead of what's best for the team. When guys win, they tend to care much less about those personal/ego related things.

RedsManRick
05-29-2008, 12:51 PM
You mean unlike Jay Bruce getting to hit in the #2 hole, right?

Or Votto batting 7th despite hitting .297/.362/.551?

Jpup
05-29-2008, 01:04 PM
Bruce
Phillips
Dunn
Votto
Edwin
Jr.
Janish/Hairston Jr.
Ross/Bako
pitcher

When Kepp gets back, I would do this:

Keppinger
Bruce
Dunn
Phillips
Votto
Edwin
Jr.
Ross/Bako
pitcher

westofyou
05-29-2008, 01:22 PM
Move down.. sure, bet a million bucks it won't be below #5

Careers carry a lot of weight, for all parties involved. It's hard to pry the superstar from his role.

Take Willie Mays 1973 202 AB's 3 and up, 5 in other slots besides #9

Henry Aaron 1976 - 259 AB's spot 5 and up 5 in other slots besides #9

Mickey Mantle 1968 426 AB's in 3 and up and 7 in other slots besides #9

redsrule2500
05-29-2008, 03:44 PM
Agree. It's not Junior's fault Dusty feels the need to "respect" him by batting him third. The "respect" thing is beyond absurd.

Dusty is the manager. He should be the top voice in the clubhouse. He SHOULD be able to come to Junior and explain that he has a role on the team, but no longer in that spot in the order. If Junior throws a tantrum, then that's Junior's problem.

Unless Junior has threatened to cause a scene if he is dropped (which I doubt), I place the blame here soley on Dusty for not having the cojones to make the move.

Agree completely! This is why i often bring up Griffey hurting the clubhouse/team on here..he has an obvious 'above management' walk about him. Of course, those thoughts aren't allowed on here, as I get instantly bashed by the entire board! ;)

Matt700wlw
05-29-2008, 04:06 PM
Hairston
Dunn/Bruce
Phillips
Bruce/Dunn
Votto
Encarnacion
Griffey
Bako/Ross
Pitcher


Obviously off days and such will change things a bit.

CaiGuy
05-29-2008, 04:51 PM
Bruce CF
Votto 1B
Dunn LF
Phillips 2B
Griffey RF
EdE 3B
Janish SS
Bako/Ross C
Pitcher

5th wouldn't be too bad...

37red
05-29-2008, 06:04 PM
I agree with everyone that feel he should be moved down, but don't blame Dusty, blame money. Everyone wants to see Ken Griffey Jr. hit those home runs "at home" and nothing is going to stop that. If he hits another one there will be a lot more fans which = money. No way he's moving down.

Matt700wlw
05-29-2008, 06:09 PM
Dusty's the manager. If it's best for the team to move him down, then move him down.

Where he hits doesn't effect his paycheck or his ability to hit a HR, therefore, as you say, to draw fans for #600.

Honestly, I don't think people care all that much about 600, overall.

Blitz Dorsey
05-29-2008, 06:44 PM
Griffey moving completely out of the batting order. Now that is what I'm talking about!

Razor Shines
05-29-2008, 06:51 PM
Agree completely! This is why i often bring up Griffey hurting the clubhouse/team on here..he has an obvious 'above management' walk about him. Of course, those thoughts aren't allowed on here, as I get instantly bashed by the entire board! ;)

Could you analyze the "walks" of the other players on the team. You have an obvious gift and I would love to hear your insights.

Chip R
05-29-2008, 07:05 PM
Could you analyze the "walks" of the other players on the team. You have an obvious gift and I would love to hear your insights.


I've heard some walk like Egyptians.

WVPacman
05-29-2008, 11:55 PM
If Dusty and JR can't see or don't want to see that moving Jr down to 6th or 7th would help the team then imo they both are'nt team players.Moving Jr down would help him big time b/c of his age where he is basicly a singles hitter and doubles hitter now.Sure he will still hit some homers but its his time to pass the torch to the younger players and let them do their stuff up higher in the lineup.

I honestly would like to see him traded b/c he is only taking up room on this team and we can't put the team out on the field that we would like.I wanted to see him traded four years ago but he is still here and until he is traded he will still be in the lineup.I just hope he is man enough to move aside for the youger players and move himself down in the order.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 12:25 AM
Griffey really seems to have trouble with LH pitching
.284 OBP .281 SLG .565 OPS, is that because of age and reduced bat speed?

GAC
05-30-2008, 10:23 AM
Respect is a two way street.

I've been giving this a lot of thought lately, so here goes....

Yes, I'd like to see Jr moved down in the batting order. That is pretty obvious to anyone I think.

As to WHY he is not, I think it's nothing but pure conjecture (and probably a personal dislike for the guy) to say it's because he's somewhat of a prima donna who likes to throw his weight around in the clubhouse because of ego, and therefore won't allow it.

Has anyone ever met a superstar ballplayer that didn't have some sort of ego or deserving attitude? Yet somehow Jr is one of the worst, and one of the root causes for this team's failures over the last 9 years. :rolleyes:

I am very thankful to have been able to have the golden opportunity to have seen Jr play. It would have been hard for a majority of us if he hadn't come to Cincy. Yes I'm sorry that it just didn't work out as planned, and he, all alone, didn't lead us to that "promised land". Crap happens, and it all can't be laid at Jr's feet. The guy got injured giving his absolute all for this ball club. At least that's how I witnessed it.

I can remember how many were giving Jr crap and putting all the blame solely on him, saying it was his ego and his being selfish because he wouldn't relinquish CF and move spots. When I asked Krivsky directly at Redsfest why Jr isn't moved out of CF he told me that it's the call of the manager and not his place as GM to interfere and subvert that manager's decision. He saw it as meddling too much in what was a manager's responsibility. That's why he's the manager. Some may say he was simply dodging the issue; but I agreed with Wayne after he took the time to explain his position on what was then a burning issue with many fans, and understood that it could possibly cause trouble when a GM starts telling a manager where to play his players. Some may disagree with that though.

Yet it was all put on Griffey.

I can still remember that May 5th day in 2000 like it was yesterday. They were facing the Cardinals, and myself and several co-workers got to see Jr for the first time. There we were, right on the rail in right-center field and one of the greatest ballplayers to ever play the game was standing right below us. Everyone was yelling trying to get him to look up.

And it was one heck of a ballgame too!

Villone and Benes both were pitching a heck of a game.

Mark McGwire hit the longest HR in Riverfront's history that day.

Me and 600 other guys missed that one though because we were all standing at the urinals when we heard the roar of the crowd. We're all turning, trying to zip up, and peeing down our pant legs trying to get back out there! :lol:

But I got to see the Hr that counted. The 6th inning shot by Jr off Benes that was a no doubter into the RF stands. Man did that crowd go nuts!

Williiamson came in in relief and finished up the game, which we won 3-2.

All I can say folks is this.....

Yes, Jr's skills have greatly deteriorated and he's a fading star. It's inevitable. It happens to even the best of them. I can remember my Dad taking us down to see Willie Mays at Crosley Field in the late 60's, and it wasn't the same Mays of his glory days.

But it didn't matter to me..... I GOT TO SEE WILLIE MAYS!

Ken Griffey Jr's days in a Red's uniform are quickly coming to an end. He won't be here after the conclusion of this season. So that's 4 months away. I've come to the conclusion that this FO (and manager) are going to allow this guy to "bow out" gracefully and on his own terms.

Ok - they're doing it out of respect for what this guy has contributed to the game. And many think that is flawed logic because it's always, always about the numbers on a piece of paper that aren't adding up. Therefore, release him, find someway to discard him aside because he has used up his usefulness, and he's just too painful to watch anymore.

I'm sorry, but sometimes, in certain situations, it's not always about the statistics. You are dealing with a human being who, regardless if he doesn't publicly acknowledge it, fully realizes within himself that he's gotten old, the skills are fleeting, and that day is fast approaching. He knows it. And because he probably deals with pride just like any of us, it's a hard pill to swallow.

You don't think he doesn't look over at CF and realize this young kid is his replacement, and that he somehow, because of ego, refuses to accept or in some way tries to hinder it from happening as long as he's here? Give me a break!

If they booted Jr off this team tomorrow, or removed him from the #3 spot and down further, yeah, it might help this team somewhat. No one can say for sure - though I'm sure someone will post some statistics to show otherwise - but this '08 squad still has multiple other problems too. Jr is only a small part of it IMHO.

I hated going to ball games recently and hear fans Boo Jr because of his deteriorating skills like it's the guy's fault.

Again... if this FO has made the decision to allow one of the greatest ball players to ever grace the field to play out the short time he has left here and bow out on his terms, then I accept that.

I may only get down to a few more ball games this year; but I look forward to seeing the guy KNOWING he soon will vacate PERMANENTLY that spot.

He will be missed.

And if they do decide to not bring him back I hope to hell that they have a Ken Griffey Jr Fan Appreciation Day for him at season's end. I want this guy to leave (retire maybe) on good terms with this city, the organization, and especially the fans. Yeah to me personally, that does mean a lot.

Not that he was callously discarded because he is no longer useful and his OPS is under 600.

Lets stop the bashing of Jr, and these endless threads discussing what we (including Jr himself) see as the inevitable.

RedsManRick
05-30-2008, 10:46 AM
Interesting post GAC. I think you can sum up the situation pretty easily. The player is the last one to know that he's lost it and Dusty is the last guy to tell him otherwise.

Professional athletes are trained to have the utmost faith in their abilities. Their ego is often borne out of necessity. Given a career like Junior's, any ego regarding playing ability is completely understandable. And given thta Junior has had so many setbacks the last 7 years, so many hurdles, that I can imagine it's difficult for him to differentiate between a slump and true decline.

We got great evidence of how Junior's ego works when it was being suggested publicly he should move out of CF. He legitimately felt that he was still the best CF (defensively) on the team and didn't want to be pushed out by an inferior player. It wasn't him playing the respect card, per se', but more a challenge of "prove to me that I'm not the best option".

I think that it's a simple issue of Griffey thinking he's just on a cold streak instead of in major decline (knows he's slipping, just not how far/fast). Dusty Baker doesn't want to be the one to tell him otherwise and risk potential political repercussions. This was Dusty's major problem in Chicago. His way of keeping the clubhouse happy was to tell everybody (with an ego) what they wanted to hear, with conflicts going to the guy with the most seniority/clout. It worked fine when he had Bonds and Bonds' production justified it. But when the quality of play slipped in Chicago, it didn't fly anymore. Dusty was furiously passing the buck on decisions and was unable to reign in clubhouse unrest.

Now we see the same stuff going on with Junior; not unrest certainly, but a lack of definitive leadership. Dusty manages his team on the field to maximize clubhouse cohesion, hoping for a feedback loop of increased production. Needless to say, it's not working.

Bottom line for me is that more often than not, respect not as much what you do but in how you do it. Batting Junior 3rd is disrespectful to the other 24 men on the team who deserve the best chance to win.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 10:57 AM
Respect is a two way street.



I liken it to your comment about Hamilton, Hamilton is gone and in the past, move on. Griffey's past is the past, respect it, appreciate it, and live in the present and take care of business the proper way in the present.

Respect the game, respect the team, respect the paying fans, respect ownership who signs the checks. Respect the fact that a player does not have the skill level that they once did and that it is no disrepect for them to bat down in the order, respecting their team. Respect the fact that it is no disrepect for a better fielder to replace them in the late innings, that is a respect for the game, the team, the ownership and the fans.

It has been the nature of the game long before Griffey or any of us ever came along, respect the fact that one day a younger, faster, stronger better player comes along when it is your time to move on, and respect it.

There is no need to further bash Griffey, the facts are the facts, Griffey should set himself aside, and ask to be moved down in the order and accept gracefully late inning replacements and days off, Griffey should give and show the respect he believes is due him.

Integrity of the game says that the best players play, bat third, field, etc. Integrity comes before respect.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 11:08 AM
I think that it's a simple issue of Griffey thinking he's just on a cold streak instead of in major decline (knows he's slipping, just not how far/fast). Dusty Baker doesn't want to be the one to tell him otherwise and risk potential political repercussions. This was Dusty's major problem in Chicago. His way of keeping the clubhouse happy was to tell everybody (with an ego) what they wanted to hear, with conflicts going to the guy with the most seniority/clout. It worked fine when he had Bonds and Bonds' production justified it. But when the quality of play slipped in Chicago, it didn't fly anymore. Dusty was furiously passing the buck on decisions and was unable to reign in clubhouse unrest.

Now we see the same stuff going on with Junior; not unrest certainly, but a lack of definitive leadership. Dusty manages his team on the field to maximize clubhouse cohesion, hoping for a feedback loop of increased production. Needless to say, it's not working.

If what you are saying or implying is true or has a grain of truth to it, then integrity is taking a back seat and respect for the game is in question. Management and player alike has integrity issues in this scenario, making it very hard to respect Baker and Griffey.

westofyou
05-30-2008, 11:18 AM
Integrity didn't keep Willie Mays from flopping around Shea in the summer of 1973, can we line him up in our sites and shoot his character down too?

RedsManRick
05-30-2008, 11:26 AM
If what you are saying or implying is true or has a grain of truth to it, then integrity is taking a back seat and respect for the game is in question. Management and player alike has integrity issues in this scenario, making it very hard to respect Baker and Griffey.

The player whose decline is obvious to everyone but himself is a well worn tradition in every sport.

In my mind, it's not reasonable to expect the player to have proper perspective. His self-assurance is so ingrained that it would be unfair to suddenly expect objectivity. However, the same can't be said about the manager. It's incumbent on his manager/management to make the right decisions about the player's role and how he can best help the team. In my mind, the failure is Dusty's.

Griffey will bat whereever Dusty asks him to and will come out of the game when asked. If he's not happy about it, what's he going to do? Stop hitting? Stop playing defense? Prevent those who actually are doing those things from doing it as well? He'd have to start doing the first two again before he could stop and I don't think he's capable of the third.

No bones about it in my mind, Dusty is still a player at heart and doesn't want to be the guy who pulls the plug on Junior's role as "the guy" -- he could very well be in denial himself. Just listen to Dusty defend his decisions. His managerial methods are all borne from 2 things: how he was managed as a player and how he, as a player, would like to have been managed. He manages from the player perspective and it's to the detriment of a well used roster.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 11:31 AM
Integrity didn't keep Willie Mays from flopping around Shea in the summer of 1973, can we line him up in our sites and shoot his character down too?

I don't have a clue what you are talking about, can you explain better?

What does Willie Mays have to do with the 2008 Reds and integrity coming before respect ? Are you saying that integrity does not come before respect?

Ltlabner
05-30-2008, 11:31 AM
Integrity didn't keep Willie Mays from flopping around Shea in the summer of 1973, can we line him up in our sites and shoot his character down too?

I wonder if some folks will retire from their chosen profession the first day they realize a youngster has a step on them? You know, around age 55ish when they wake up and realize the youngster down the hall has more energy, more up-to-date training, more drive and possibly more tallent.

Or they will hang on because they feel they still have something to offer?

Nah, they have integrity, they'll just clean off their desk and head home to play checkers and whittle.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 11:37 AM
The player whose decline is obvious to everyone but himself is a well worn tradition in every sport.

In my mind, it's not reasonable to expect the player to have proper perspective. His self-assurance is so ingrained that it would be unfair to suddenly expect objectivity. However, the same can't be said about the manager. It's incumbent on his manager/management to make the right decisions about the player's role and how he can best help the team. In my mind, the failure is Dusty's.

Griffey will bat whereever Dusty asks him to and will come out of the game when asked. If he's not happy about it, what's he going to do? Stop hitting? Stop playing defense? Prevent those who actually are doing those things from doing it as well? He'd have to start doing the first two again before he could stop and I don't think he's capable of the third.



Very well said and written.

RedsManRick
05-30-2008, 11:41 AM
I wonder if some folks will retire from their chosen profession the first day they realize a youngster has a step on them? You know, around age 55ish when they wake up and realize the youngster down the hall has more energy, more up-to-date training, more drive and possibly more tallent.

Or they will hang on because they feel they still have something to offer?

Nah, they have integrity, they'll just clean off their desk and head home to play checkers and whittle.

In all fairness, if they had $50,000,000+ in the bank, they very well might...

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 11:43 AM
when they wake up and realize the youngster down the hall has more energy, more up-to-date training, more drive and possibly more tallent.


Are you saying that in professional sports that if there are better players with better present day talent that the Reds should continue to put an inferior product in RF or to bat that inferior product third and continue to sell that product to their patrons, etc?

GAC
05-30-2008, 12:14 PM
We got great evidence of how Junior's ego works when it was being suggested publicly he should move out of CF. He legitimately felt that he was still the best CF (defensively) on the team and didn't want to be pushed out by an inferior player. It wasn't him playing the respect card, per se', but more a challenge of "prove to me that I'm not the best option".

Purely natural, and not ego IMO, for Jr to say such. Who had proven themselves as being the better CFer on the team at the time of that statement? I certainly didn't see it as an inexperienced and unproven Denorfia or jack-of-all trades Freel who had never played a full season and was proving just as volatile physically. And I don't think Jr's statement was solely about the defensive aspect of CF; but was a more generalized statement involving overall play.

And I'm not going to fault a player for expressing that sentiment, or say he's just being selfish and doesn't care about any one else but himself, or, as some suggested he was calling the shots on whether he moved or not.

That proved to not be true at all....

Asked a question about how he feels about his "transition" away from center field, he answered: "It didn't really matter how I felt about it. That's really not important, because I'm not there. And I've got to make the best of it." That suggests he didn't have a vote on this. And from all indications, he didn't.


"It's not that big of a deal," he insisted Thursday, before the Reds played their 20th consecutive game this spring without Griffey in their lineup. "You guys [in the media] are making more of a big deal out of it than it is."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2007/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2808117

And I could care less if a ballplayer expresses his dissatisfaction. Something like that is hard to accept, so it's only natural. But unless someone can show evidence that he was taking it to the next level, meaning, causing trouble in that clubhouse and with the FO, hurting the chemistry on the team and relationships with other players, then I could care less when any player says what he feels.





Dusty Baker doesn't want to be the one to tell him otherwise and risk potential political repercussions. This was Dusty's major problem in Chicago. His way of keeping the clubhouse happy was to tell everybody (with an ego) what they wanted to hear, with conflicts going to the guy with the most seniority/clout. It worked fine when he had Bonds and Bonds' production justified it. But when the quality of play slipped in Chicago, it didn't fly anymore. Dusty was furiously passing the buck on decisions and was unable to reign in clubhouse unrest.

Then that is Dusty's fault.... not Jr's.

Again - when someone can show solid evidence that it's Jr's ego and selfishness... and stuff like that usually has it's way of getting out of the clubhouse and into the media... as to the reason why Dusty is batting him 3rd and playing favoritism, then I'll believe them.

I haven't seen any as of yet. Only conjecture.


Now we see the same stuff going on with Junior; not unrest certainly, but a lack of definitive leadership. Dusty manages his team on the field to maximize clubhouse cohesion, hoping for a feedback loop of increased production. Needless to say, it's not working.

Again.... not Jr's fault, but Dusty's.


Batting Junior 3rd is disrespectful to the other 24 men on the team who deserve the best chance to win.

It may be other things Rick, but not disrespectful to those other 24 guys. Respectfully, that's stretching it. I bet they certainly wouldn't see it that way because one day they'll be in Jr's shoes. ;)

GAC
05-30-2008, 12:22 PM
Are you saying that in professional sports that if there are better players with better present day talent that the Reds should continue to put an inferior product in RF or to bat that inferior product third and continue to sell that product to their patrons, etc?

And who, on this current roster, should that be RIGHT NOW if Bruce is in CF?

Ryan Freel? Jerry Hairston?

So you're in favor of basically dumping Jr, cut ties with the guy and say ADIOS without any consideration or respect for what he has brought to the game and/or the city of Cincinnati?

Because we all know that as soon as we dump Jr this '08 team is gonna turn it around. ;)

You see.... I'm not denying all that has been said about Jr and his deteriorating skills/performance.

I'm just saying - let him bow out gracefully and on his own terms, and not try to run him out of town on a rail (which some have suggested).

He'll be gone soon enough.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 12:27 PM
RedsManRick and GAC,

Do you believe that Ken Griffey Jr. should be batting third in the order, up in the order, or down and is the most talented player currently available to the Reds to play in right field, either subjectively through your personal opinion or objectively as best as one can establish statistically or both?

Follow up question: How does the answer to that question reflect on statements regarding winning vs losing from Jocketty, Baker and Castellini, and their integrity and credibility which goes to character?

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 12:30 PM
And who, on this current roster, should that be RIGHT NOW if Bruce is in CF?

Ryan Freel? Jerry Hairston?

So you're in favor of basically dumping Jr, cut ties with the guy and say ADIOS without any consideration or respect for what he has brought to the game and/or the city of Cincinnati?

Because we all know that as soon as we dump Jr this '08 team is gonna turn it around. ;)
You see.... I'm not denying all that has been said about Jr and his deteriorating skills/performance.

I'm just saying - let him bow out gracefully and on his own terms, and not try to run him out of town on a rail (which some have suggested).

He'll be gone soon enough.

I don't think that I have ever said that. Is what you have written what you believe?

I don't know the answers to your questions, I would have to ask you ;) So what are the right answers GAC ?


I'm just saying - let him bow out gracefully and on his own terms, and not try to run him out of town on a rail (which some have suggested).

How is that graceful ?? When we know in reality of the business world it is a about a long term contract in the dollar amount that it is?


He'll be gone soon enough.
I assume due to the contract, so it would then be about money nothing else.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 12:37 PM
It has been the nature of the game long before Griffey or any of us ever came along, respect the fact that one day a younger, faster, stronger better player comes along when it is your time to move on, and respect it.

There is no need to further bash Griffey, the facts are the facts, Griffey should set himself aside, and ask to be moved down in the order and accept gracefully late inning replacements and days off, Griffey should give and show the respect he believes is due him.

Integrity of the game says that the best players play, bat third, field, etc. Integrity comes before respect.

Greg here is what I suggested. Is there something wrong with that in bold?

RedsManRick
05-30-2008, 12:44 PM
It may be other things Rick, but not disrespectful to those other 24 guys. Respectfully, that's stretching it. I bet they certainly wouldn't see it that way because one day they'll be in Jr's shoes. ;)

Well, hopefully I clarified my position in the subsequent post. I agree that Junior isn't at fault, Dusty is. I think we're in agreement.

GAC
05-30-2008, 12:55 PM
RedsManRick and GAC,

Do you believe that Ken Griffey Jr. should be batting third in the order, up in the order, or down and is the most talented player currently available to the Reds to play in right field, either subjectively through your personal opinion or objectively as best as one can establish statistically or both?

I already answered this question in my initial post. ;)


Follow up question: How does the answer to that question reflect on statements regarding winning vs losing from Jocketty, Baker and Castellini, and their integrity and credibility which goes to character?

It's a direct contradiction IF you feel Jr is one of the main contributors as to why this team is 3-4 games under .500.

I don't believe that. I've not denied Jr's poor play or the fact I don't care for him batting 3rd.

All I've said is that this FO has most likely made a decision (as well as Dusty) to play Jr BECAUSE...

- they respect this future HOFer and what he has contributed to the game

- His time is short and they know he's not coming back, so they aren't gonna crap all over him just because fans are frustrated at the current performance of this '08 squad and trying to find someone to blame.

- he is still a popular player regardless of his performance. Did you read this?....

Griffey near top of NL outfielder pack
13-time All-Star simply synonymous with Midsummer Classic

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080525&content_id=2770025&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Tell me fans aren't fickled, but he still sells obviously.

- If Bruce is in CF for the '08 season, then you want Jr dumped for the likes of Freel and/or Hairston? Those are your current options. Yep. That's gonna put us over the top in '08. ;)

This FO is just not going to do that to Jr, yes, because of who he is.

So lets live with it since it probably ain't going to change, and quit starting these daily (and endless) threads about our disgust over Ken Griffey Jr when we know we can't change it.

If it makes one feel better to work out one's frustration then go out in the backyard and scream or kick the family pet. :lol:

But it's just not gonna change for now, so why get ourselves all worked up over it and start these endless discussions?

RedsManRick
05-30-2008, 01:12 PM
RedsManRick and GAC,

Do you believe that Ken Griffey Jr. should be batting third in the order, up in the order, or down and is the most talented player currently available to the Reds to play in right field, either subjectively through your personal opinion or objectively as best as one can establish statistically or both?

Follow up question: How does the answer to that question reflect on statements regarding winning vs losing from Jocketty, Baker and Castellini, and their integrity and credibility which goes to character?

I believe that Junior should be playing RF against righties, batting no higher than 5th in the order. Any OF defensive replacement should be for Junior, not Dunn. Freel (or Hairston - no real preference) should be playing RF against lefties. Bruce should be in CF every day and batting in the top 5.

Regarding the 2nd question... (short version at bottom)

- Baker: I honestly believe that Dusty Baker does not have a great grasp on the basic tenets of proper player valuation or run production, leaning heavily on history, scouting, and traditional metrics (BA, RBI, Errors). I believe Dusty is honest and credible (i.e. not a liar), he's just not a very good manager.

- Castellini: He is just an owner and I don't think he would presume to know howto build a winning organization below upper management. Frankly, his job is to find the people who do. As far as I know, he's never claimed to predict that the Reds would "win now", just that he was making it a top priority. I can't fault him for setting the bar high, and imagine he would have done so regardless of the state of the franchise. It's important that we don't confuse purposeful rhetoric with actual strategy. I do believe he has integrity and will hold himself accountable. However, I wonder how much information he had about what was possible before stating his positions and wonder what his expectations are behind closed doors.

- Jocketty: It's the job of his GM to communicate up the chain what is possible, what resources will be necessary to achieve the stated goals, and how those goals are impact if those resources are not available, be it in timing or scope. If Krivsky told BC that "winning now" (circa 2006/2007) was possible, then he deserved to be fired. On that note, Jocketty needs to be communicating a clear plan for the progression of the organization. It it not yet clear if he has done that internally, but I think it's fair to assume he has. He has not done it outwardly in any formal fashion, but is pulling back the curtain a bit in small chunks.

His other responsibility is to give Dusty the best 25 man roster possible given the short and long term goals of the organization. He has already started to put his fingerprint on the organization in this way, quickly living up to what he's said he'll do. I see no reason to question his character/credibility either.

In short, I don't believe we have any reason to question the integrity and/or character of Reds management. I do believe we have reason to question their capability, particularly that of Baker's tactical ability and Castellini's patience in letting the organization mature in a healthy way.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 01:12 PM
All I've said is that this FO has most likely made a decision (as well as Dusty) to play Jr BECAUSE...

- they respect this future HOFer and what he has contributed to the game

- His time is short and they know he's not coming back, so they aren't gonna crap all over him just because fans are frustrated at the current performance of this '08 squad and trying to find someone to blame.

- he is still a popular player regardless of his performance. Did you read this?....



I just think that is a bit naive. I believe that in the business world that the financials and the contractual commitment would be the prevailing reason in the current Griffey/Reds relationship. I believe that if Krivsky or Jocketty could have unloaded Griffey they would have or will.

Otherwise one would have to consider this quote to have merit in the Griffey and Reds relationship, “some other aged veteran trying to hang on via name recognition”, I don’t think the past accomplishments are why Griffey is still with the Reds, and I think that many have already argued seasons before and this one that the Reds would not be able to move Griffey due to his contract, his rights as a player, and the dollar value.

That which is within the power of the current manager will continue to be brought up on the board as long as a habitual losing team is the true issue and a poor product on the field.

Griffey, Dunn, the pitching, offense defense, ownership and management, Bowden, O’Brien, Krivsky, Jocketty, Lindner, Castellini are long and on going topics that have or frequent most Reds message boards, that happens when you have a losing season that extends for seven years, naturally. In summation the same on going complaint, losing.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 01:22 PM
But it's just not gonna change for now, so why get ourselves all worked up over it and start these endless discussions?

The Griffey topic and question that started the thread falls under the premise of lineup contruction and utilizing the players in a manner that allows them to succeed as an individual and as a team.

"Griffey need moved down in the batting order??

At least that is my interpretation, and who of us have not participated in those? Those are a part of traditional baseball discussion, usual and customary. Without the discussion of such, where would stats be?

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 01:42 PM
I believe that Junior should be playing RF against righties, batting no higher than 5th in the order. Any OF defensive replacement should be for Junior, not Dunn. Freel (or Hairston - no real preference) should be playing RF against lefties. Bruce should be in CF every day and batting in the top 5.

Regarding the 2nd question... (short version at bottom)

- Baker: I honestly believe that Dusty Baker does not have a great grasp on the basic tenets of proper player valuation or run production, leaning heavily on history, scouting, and traditional metrics (BA, RBI, Errors). I believe Dusty is honest and credible (i.e. not a liar), he's just not a very good manager.

- Castellini: He is just an owner and I don't think he would presume to know howto build a winning organization below upper management. Frankly, his job is to find the people who do. As far as I know, he's never claimed to predict that the Reds would "win now", just that he was making it a top priority. I can't fault him for setting the bar high, and imagine he would have done so regardless of the state of the franchise. It's important that we don't confuse purposeful rhetoric with actual strategy. I do believe he has integrity and will hold himself accountable. However, I wonder how much information he had about what was possible before stating his positions and wonder what his expectations are behind closed doors.

- Jocketty: It's the job of his GM to communicate up the chain what is possible, what resources will be necessary to achieve the stated goals, and how those goals are impact if those resources are not available, be it in timing or scope. If Krivsky told BC that "winning now" (circa 2006/2007) was possible, then he deserved to be fired. On that note, Jocketty needs to be communicating a clear plan for the progression of the organization. It it not yet clear if he has done that internally, but I think it's fair to assume he has. He has not done it outwardly in any formal fashion, but is pulling back the curtain a bit in small chunks.

His other responsibility is to give Dusty the best 25 man roster possible given the short and long term goals of the organization. He has already started to put his fingerprint on the organization in this way, quickly living up to what he's said he'll do. I see no reason to question his character/credibility either.

In short, I don't believe we have any reason to question the integrity and/or character of Reds management. I do believe we have reason to question their capability, particularly that of Baker's tactical ability and Castellini's patience in letting the organization mature in a healthy way.



I believe that Junior should be playing RF against righties, batting no higher than 5th in the order. Any OF defensive replacement should be for Junior, not Dunn. Freel (or Hairston - no real preference) should be playing RF against lefties. Bruce should be in CF every day and batting in the top 5.

That seems very reasonable to me and I believe that can be supported by statistical measures as well, I full heartedly agree with your position, and would like to see that intelligently implemented post haste since it is within the powers and capabilities of the manager, meaning something that he can do in a proactive manner in the present. Unlike other issues with the club that no one with the organization can immediately effect or change, the above is something that the manager can do.


- Baker: I honestly believe that Dusty Baker does not have a great grasp on the basic tenets of proper player valuation or run production, leaning heavily on history, scouting, and traditional metrics (BA, RBI, Errors). I believe Dusty is honest and credible (i.e. not a liar), he's just not a very good manager.

It would have to follow that if your belief is true that Baker, “does not have a great grasp on the basic tenets of proper player valuation or run production, leaning heavily on history, scouting, and traditional metrics”, that Baker would not be a very good manager and that he could make decisions and choices that adversely challenge the teams ability to perform at its best, I would think. So the thread that states a question about Griffey, in asking, “Griffey need moved down in the batting order??” could actually become a question of the managers competence, and not really about Griffey at all.

I feel that what you have written regarding Castellini and Jocketty at this time is well thought out and very articulate. I think that we would agree that Castellini and Jocketty are not germane to the question of Griffey, lineup construction and how the manager utilizes his player resources within his power and control. Though I do recognize what you are saying regarding them and agree.


In short, I don't believe we have any reason to question the integrity and/or character of Reds management. I do believe we have reason to question their capability, particularly that of Baker's tactical ability and Castellini's patience in letting the organization mature in a healthy way.

That is no small issue, and you do well to point that out, and we should continue to question and to pursue it as long as it is not address in a satisfactory manner as supported by the results.

GAC
05-30-2008, 01:56 PM
I just think that is a bit naive. I believe that in the business world that the financials and the contractual commitment would be the prevailing reason in the current Griffey/Reds relationship.

I understand there is a business aspect to the game of baseball; but it's still not the same as being in the business world. It's not just a FO that has a relationship with these players, especially superstars, but the fans.

I work in the business world, and I'm an employee. But I don't have fans, especially those who pay to come see me work and spend millions on my merchandise to help the company profit.

Ballplayers are not just employees. ;)


I believe that if Krivsky or Jocketty could have unloaded Griffey they would have or will.

Sure they would have liked to have unloaded him. But they haven't been able to have they? But that doesn't mean they are just going to dump him. Whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not, this guy still has a pretty large fan base regardless of his current performance.

You treat Jr like crap, or take actions that could be interpreted as trying to disrespect him or tarnish who he is, and this FO management would catch a heck of a lot of flack and hatred. It certainly isn't going to improve their image any.

I simply accept the fact that they are going to let him play his time out here for the remainder of the season, and then let him ride off into the sunset. That's all. They are going to let the problem rectify itself, and not risk causing bad feelings with Jr, the fans, and even the media which may not like it if this future HOFer is handled callously.

So why are we getting our shorts in a bunch when it's nothing we can change right now?

He'll be gone soon enough, and he is not the main reason this '08 team is struggling.

GAC
05-30-2008, 01:58 PM
The Griffey topic and question that started the thread falls under the premise of lineup contruction and utilizing the players in a manner that allows them to succeed as an individual and as a team.

"Griffey need moved down in the batting order??

At least that is my interpretation, and who of us have not participated in those? Those are a part of traditional baseball discussion, usual and customary. Without the discussion of such, where would stats be?

I understand it's a discussion board Ken. I participated in it and made my thoughts known.

But it's a subject that is, IMHO, getting beat to death.

Adam Dunn has to be breathing a sigh of relief somewhere. :lol:

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 02:11 PM
Sure they would have liked to have unloaded him. But they haven't been able to have they?

Thank you,

I was starting to wonder, who was using your computer, ;) I thought maybe Mother Teresa, as I know where you and I stand on this issue long before this thread was manifested, and know that we would have unloaded Griffey just as you have said management would have if they could have.

It is not really about, what the future hall member accomplished, now is it, if it's sure "that they would have liked to have unloaded him".

It was and is about contractual and contingent liabilities to honor that contract, not dear ole Junior and that which he has given and done so much for the game of baseball, which in fact he has accomplished and given much, but that is not why Griffey is still with the Reds and Rick and others have already established that it is within the power of the current manager to position his players at the plate and on the field.

The rest that you are speaking to, respectfully, is PR and marketing which is not germane to whether or not Griffey and his manager are doing the best thing for the team and product on the field, in this case the question of simply batting down in the order, just like his other teamates have or do.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 02:26 PM
I understand it's a discussion board Ken. I participated in it and made my thoughts known.

But it's a subject that is, IMHO, getting beat to death.

Adam Dunn has to be breathing a sigh of relief somewhere. :lol:

Dunn might be breathing a sigh of relief, but I bet Patterson isn't, and Patterson might still be leading off, if the fans had not habitually voiced their disgruntled feelings on that issue of Patterson, no it is not comfortable or convenient.

Opinions are fueled by adversity, which are behind the origin of critical arguments. When there is a reduced reason to present critical arguments the participation in such threads will be greatly reduced. The actual origin and foundation of this particular message board was built on adversity and critical arguments, whether they were objective or subjective.

I agree that the habituation of such threads and redundant subject manner is not very stimulating or interesting after it has been covered at length regardless of how they/I/you paraphrase it to represent it. Primarily there is one subject, no matter how we might dress that up, it is still about losing in most instances and how the team might resolve that. There is an endless list of issues with the team that needs to be addressed and corrected and Joe common fan will continue to bring it up until it is dealt with to their satisfaction.

Greg I think that what we are reading are the last gasp before pure apathy sets in, I am surprised that some fans have lasted this long.

Ltlabner
05-30-2008, 02:32 PM
In all fairness, if they had $50,000,000+ in the bank, they very well might...

Heck, if I had that in the bank I'd being finding something else more exciting to keep me occupied for 8 hours a day right now!


Are you saying that in professional sports that if there are better players with better present day talent that the Reds should continue to put an inferior product in RF or to bat that inferior product third and continue to sell that product to their patrons, etc?

My comments were only focused on the notion that a player hanging on somehow reflected on their chracter, integrity, respect or whatever. Which is completley silly IMO.

It's up to Dusty to use his resources the best way possible. If it's Jr 3, 6, 7th or 19th that's a decision he has to make. He makes up the lineup (not Jr) and I don't really care where Jr bats. (well, 9th might be a little rude).

But to imply that a player doesn't have integrity because they feal they have something offer despite declining skills is patently silly. Just remember those words when father time catches up with you.

A player who blatently cheats, doesn't work on their game, or fakes an injury to avoid playing/collect a paycheck....those are integrity issues. A player believing he still has gas in the tank despite signs to the contrary, when they have spent their entire adult life in one profession, is one thing...human.

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 03:06 PM
Heck, if I had that in the bank I'd being finding something else more exciting to keep me occupied for 8 hours a day right now!



My comments were only focused on the notion that a player hanging on somehow reflected on their chracter, integrity, respect or whatever. Which is completley silly IMO.

It's up to Dusty to use his resources the best way possible. If it's Jr 3, 6, 7th or 19th that's a decision he has to make. He makes up the lineup (not Jr) and I don't really care where Jr bats. (well, 9th might be a little rude).

But to imply that a player doesn't have integrity because they feal they have something offer despite declining skills is patently silly. Just remember those words when father time catches up with you.

A player who blatently cheats, doesn't work on their game, or fakes an injury to avoid playing/collect a paycheck....those are integrity issues. A player believing he still has gas in the tank despite signs to the contrary, when they have spent their entire adult life in one profession, is one thing...human.

Now I understand what you are saying.

My use of the word integrity was in questioning the quality of thinking that has gone into the decisions of the team utilizing their player personnel, if that thinking was truly represented by the motivations that are fronted and presented as being true in the press as if they are supported by the results from the performances on the field.

Another brought up the incongruent discussion regarding shooting down ones "character".

If the subject would have been about “character” then integrity and credibility would be germane to a discussion of character, which it was not in my perception and that is why I had asked for a clarification.

Where as Rick does bring up a question of the managers abilities that contribute to that mangers ability to make decisions, now if that manager does not have the necessary skills, then integrity and credibility does become germane. I am not speaking to prevaricating or deception here, yet one can question Bakers true motives behind his comments to the press and his continued practices in utilizing the player resources.

Leaving one to query, what is missing here and what is wrong with this picture?

WVRedsFan
05-30-2008, 07:00 PM
So why are we getting our shorts in a bunch when it's nothing we can change right now?

He'll be gone soon enough, and he is not the main reason this '08 team is struggling.

1. Because he's not hitting. If he went on a 12-20 streak with a few homers and no arguments would be found--except those who continually think he should get every ball hit toward him.

2. So very true. In fact, little noticed in all the hoopla over Bruce Almighty, no one noticed that even on two nights when he didn't even have a hit, he drove in two runs--same as Bruce.

membengal
05-30-2008, 07:03 PM
WV, even when he goes on a hot streak, which he will, and which I desperately root for, it won't change my view that he needs, for his sake, and the sake of the Reds, to find his way to an AL team and soon.

WVRedsFan
05-30-2008, 07:35 PM
WV, even when he goes on a hot streak, which he will, and which I desperately root for, it won't change my view that he needs, for his sake, and the sake of the Reds, to find his way to an AL team and soon.


I wish him the best, too, but this constant harping on where he bats and the disparaging comments about getting rid of him is a little much. A Dunn-Bruce-Griffey outfield without Griffey would be Dunn-Freel-Bruce, and I never want to see that except occasionally.

GAC
05-30-2008, 07:39 PM
I wish him the best, too, but this constant harping on where he bats and the disparaging comments about getting rid of him is a little much.

And that is all I'm really saying WV.


A Dunn-Bruce-Griffey outfield without Griffey would be Dunn-Freel-Bruce, and I never want to see that except occasionally.

Even scarier thought isn't it. ;)

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 08:06 PM
I wish him the best, too, but this constant harping on where he bats and the disparaging comments about getting rid of him is a little much.

WVRedsFan, I can understand from reading your past threads supporting Griffey that you are very big fan of Griffey and Baker, so I can understand that you would be sensitive to the Griffey threads.

GAC
05-30-2008, 09:05 PM
WVRedsFan, I can understand from reading your past threads supporting Griffey that you are very big fan of Griffey and Baker, so I can understand that you would be sensitive to the Griffey threads.

WV a big fan of Baker? :p:

Spring~Fields
05-30-2008, 10:24 PM
WV a big fan of Baker? :p:

I thought that I wrote Junior, wasn't meaning that to read Baker fan, but supporter silly GAC, you're the big fan of Baker.........:evil:

Either way I can understand him being sensitive, which is the point.

WVRedsFan
05-31-2008, 12:31 AM
WV a big fan of Baker? :p:

What!?

Hardly a fan of Baker. I griped and complained so much about Boone, Miley, and Narron that I was *almost* happy to have a guy who had a winning season as the manager, but a fan? No. Of course, if he leads us to the NL West crown, I might think otherwise, but I think I'm safe in saying that's not going to happen this year. :)

Big Klu
05-31-2008, 03:28 AM
What!?

Hardly a fan of Baker. I griped and complained so much about Boone, Miley, and Narron that I was *almost* happy to have a guy who had a winning season as the manager, but a fan? No. Of course, if he leads us to the NL West crown, I might think otherwise, but I think I'm safe in saying that's not going to happen this year. :)

Nor any other year, since the Reds are in the NL Central! :p:

cincyinco
05-31-2008, 05:08 AM
Ah, I remember a time when we were in the NL west. There was what, 26 teams? A lovely 2 divisions per league?

The reds being in the west is what made that rivalry with the dodgers so great. Man... I'm waxing poetic, but baseball seemed like a different game in so many ways than it is today.

I guess I feel like its been stripped of its innocence - expansion, realignment, the strike, the now bunk HR chase, the steroid issue.. Interleague play even.

Sigh.

westofyou
05-31-2008, 10:06 AM
Ah, I remember a time when we were in the NL west. There was what, 26 teams? A lovely 2 divisions per league?

The reds being in the west is what made that rivalry with the dodgers so great. Man... I'm waxing poetic, but baseball seemed like a different game in so many ways than it is today.

I guess I feel like its been stripped of its innocence - expansion, realignment, the strike, the now bunk HR chase, the steroid issue.. Interleague play even.

Sigh.

24 actually, and divisional play itself is bad, since the real winner is the team that holds first through the whole year.

So in essence what you pine for had already ruined someone else's perception of what is right and what is wrong in baseball.