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Far East
06-01-2008, 01:40 AM
Looking at the current 25 man roster:

Mike Lincoln's pitched well lately -- certainly better than Belise or Fogg. Can he be gradually stretched out (in long relief or at least longer relief) to be able to go six innings?

Perhaps no single pitch of his is of stopper quality, but he's got 4 average or maybe some better than average pitches -- unlike Afeldt (1.46 WHIP), for example, who appears to only have 2 pitches.

Currently Lincoln's 1.17 WHIP is second only to Cordero, but of course that's for just an inning or two at a time.

Is (1.53 WHIP) Merker's body/stamina too much past its prime to return to a starting role? Is Burton, at a 1.37 WHIP, too valuable from the pen/ too untried as a starter to leave the pen?

Or do the Reds look to Louisville, and release Fogg in favor of a young AAA starter?

AmarilloRed
06-01-2008, 01:52 AM
I have seen Lincoln struggle when he has attempted to go longer than 1 inning. I just don't see him going 6 innings. I would look to AAA for a starter.

fearofpopvol1
06-01-2008, 01:54 AM
I think it's Maloney that will get the 1st shot, possibly Thompson. Hopefully the former. Bailey has an outside chance, but I doubt it.

Lincoln/Mercker are both bad ideas, in my opinion.

Wheelhouse
06-01-2008, 02:00 AM
I think it's Maloney that will get the 1st shot, possibly Thompson. Hopefully the former. Bailey has an outside chance, but I doubt it.

Lincoln/Mercker are both bad ideas, in my opinion.

Agreed on Maloney--Jocketty has said that he made a trip to see him very recently.

WVPacman
06-01-2008, 02:00 AM
I think if anybody is going to get called up it will be Matt Maloney.From what I've heard he has probably pitched the best so far with Thompson coming in a close second.

Ron Madden
06-01-2008, 02:00 AM
I know he hasn't done well so far this year but I would've stuck with Matt Belisle. I like his stuff and still believe he could have turned it around.

I'll duck and cover now.

:redface:

Joseph
06-01-2008, 02:10 AM
If its Fogg, we know this team doesn't care.

Or something.

Spring~Fields
06-01-2008, 04:13 AM
I would send Cueto down to AAA to regain his effectiveness, location, confidence and to let him dominate down at that level until the end of July. Now that it is June I would release Fogg because of his ineffectiveness, bring up Maloney and Thompson for the fourth, fifth starters and do with Bailey what St. Louis did with Wainwright and let Bailey pitch out of the bullpen. I realize that all of the pitchers mentioned here need more time to work on things.

Volquez and Cueto were put on the staff with the realization that they would have some good days and bad days on the mound, Volquez has worked out and Cueto has received valuable experience, yet something has changed from the Cueto that we first saw that kept his pitches down and I think that he is taking to many lumps on the mound and that AAA would cause him to regain his composure, location, effectiveness and confidence in a dominating way.

Maloney and Thompson could come in with basically the same assumption that they will have their good days and bad days while they gain experience, then again one of them or both could work out, certainly the Reds would have a good look at them going into next year with the major league experience that they gain.

Regardless I expect Jocketty to make more decisions with these pitchers in the coming weeks or sooner as I just canít see Jocketty continue watching Fogg and Cueto struggle, he and his staff will come up with something, I think.

Benihana
06-01-2008, 05:33 AM
Maloney or Jukich should get the call. Bailey needs at least another month or two in the minors. Thompson shouldn't see the big leagues until next season.

GAC
06-01-2008, 06:34 AM
I would send Cueto down to AAA to regain his effectiveness, location, confidence and to let him dominate down at that level until the end of July. Now that it is June I would release Fogg because of his ineffectiveness, bring up Maloney and Thompson for the fourth, fifth starters and do with Bailey what St. Louis did with Wainwright and let Bailey pitch out of the bullpen. I realize that all of the pitchers mentioned here need more time to work on things.

Fogg needs to be gone. I think we all can agree on that. That's the easy part.

Filling the need is quite different (and harder).

I realize that we are in a tough spot and need to do something, so I'm not opposed to either Maloney or maybe Bailey; but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't struggle as bad as Belisle.

Maloney had a very poor April, but has rebounded in May. In 11 games he is 6-2 with an ERA of 4.09


Date OPP W L ERA SV IP H ER BB SO
Apr 10 @SWB 0 0 8.31 0 4.1 4 4 2 3
Apr 16 NOR 1 0 5.06 0 5.1 6 3 1 6
Apr 22 @IND 0 1 9.00 0 4.0 5 4 3 4
Apr 27 COL 1 0 4.76 0 5.2 8 3 1 9
May 02 @RIC 0 1 10.38 0 4.1 7 5 3 4
May 07 @NOR 1 0 2.57 0 7.0 7 2 0 2
May 12 RIC 1 0 0.00 0 7.0 2 0 2 7
May 18 IND 1 0 2.84 0 6.1 5 2 1 4
May 24 @TOL 0 0 0.00 0 7.0 3 0 2 8
May 29 @COL 1 0 2.57 0 7.0 4 2 3 5
Totals 6 2 3.88 0 58.0 51 25 18 52

But here is what bothers me about Maloney right now...

Behind in Count ERA 4.73
Runners On ERA 8.22
Scoring Position ERA 13.50

And that is at the AAA level.


Volquez and Cueto were put on the staff with the realization that they would have some good days and bad days on the mound, Volquez has worked out and Cueto has received valuable experience, yet something has changed from the Cueto that we first saw that kept his pitches down and I think that he is taking to many lumps on the mound and that AAA would cause him to regain his composure, location, effectiveness and confidence in a dominating way.

You may be right about Cueto. Personally, when you look at/compare Volquez and Cueto you're seeing the difference an extra year or two of development makes. From 2005-2007, Volquez got ML exposure by pitching in 14 games for Texas. Cueto's career has been majority as a single A ballplayer. He started last season in Sarasota. He finally got some exposure at AA and then AAA level (3 games).

So I'm not surprised at Johnny's struggles. One can see that Volquez is further along on that curve then Cueto. Cueto's struggles are due to immaturity. Not that he doesn't possess the tools.

And watching Cueto is why I oppose bringing Thompson up here. He just got promoted to AA this year, where he appeared in 5 games, and just recently been promoted to AAA Louisville where he has only pitched in one game. We now want to jerk (rush) him up here because of need?

I understand our situation with guys like Belisle and Fogg.

But IMO, we need to be careful here and think outside the box and not only on 2008 when it comes to the handling of our younger pitchers.

And watching Cueto may be a "shot across the bow" in that aspect. Lets not ignore that.

But I could see a Maloney or possibly a Bailey given a try. Belisle is gone, and we can't trot Fogg out there anymore.

But Dusty will because Dusty's logic will be.... "Hey! I knew yesterday's game was going to to be a high scoring affair. And sure Fogg didn't last long. But he kept us in the game and we won didn't we?" ;)

If one looks at any ML rotation the 5th spot is usually a sore spot where the manager knows it's a crap shoot. He hopes the guy can give you 5 innings and keep you in the game while having the bullpen (long relief) at the ready.

And I don't say that in defense of a Josh Fogg. Only that that is the reality of the situation.

How about this? DFA Fogg and find a way to clear another roster spot up and call up both Maloney and Bailey and let them "platoon" that #5 spot while watching them closely, monitoring pitch count, but let them gain further exposure experience?

What have we got to lose?

Of course you're really going to put the screws to that Louisville team (rotation). I'm sure Rick Sweet might go ARRRRRGH! :lol:

Aronchis
06-01-2008, 06:43 AM
Cueto's problems are his velocity has normalized. He was throwing consistantly in the 94-96 range earlier in the year that caused him to get some outs that later on turned into hits.

The anti-Bailey, as Bailey is looking for his velocity to get into the mid-90s consistantly so he can contribute.

The Reds have little choice but to keep Cueto in the rotation and hope his offspeed stuff advances.

mth123
06-01-2008, 07:38 AM
I'd say no to any current bullpen member starting. I don't see an in house alternative that I really like. Barring an acquisition, I think the Reds should probably make some kind of move to clear a spot. That would either mean a DL trip for Weathers or Fogg (I'm guessing Fogg may have whiplash from watching all thise shots go past him) or a DFA of Fogg. I think for Today a call-up of Herrara might work out best. Let Cueto throw his hard stuff for as long as he can go and then bring in Herrara's slow and slower offerings to really mess them up in front of Burton and Cordero. Herrara last pitched on Friday, so he should be good for a couple innings and the pen really needs the help right now.

Thursday, the team will need to send some one back down (probably Herrara) and add a starter. I'm not a fan of either Bailey or Thompson in the majors during 2009. Bailey has still not really pitched a full load as a starter in any given season with his max inning year at about 140. 2008 needs to be the year he establsihes that he can go 165+ innings in AAA. I'd go with Maloney, but hope for an acquisition.

medford
06-01-2008, 08:38 AM
At this point, Cueto has to stay on the Big league club. No, he's not blowing people away like earlier in the season, but he's not giving up Fogg like starts either. He's kept the Reds in the ball game for the most part. He's gaining major learning experience right now, experience I don't believe he could get facing AAAA hitters down in Louisiville. Many big time pitchers struggle in their first season in the Bigs, and I wouldn't expect any different out of Maloney or Thompson.

Bailey is not getting it down at the moment, though he did have a nice outing last time out.

Fogg is clearly not the answer, and part of me wonders if his turn in the rotation wasn't a "produce or you're gone" start. Maloney pitched on Tuesday, so on a normal schedule, he wouldn't have been ready to pitch again until today (Sunday). I doubt they wanted to put him on short rest heading into his major league debut.

I'll be courious to see if he Pitches today and if so, how long. Could Maloney get the call when they play @ Philly next Thursday? I'm honestly guessing that answer is yes.

While Thompson has been dominant all season long, I think its too early to make the call for Thompson. Let the kid settle into AAA for a month or so. If he continues to produce like he has and Maloney struggles in the bigs, then flip their spots on the 25 man roster. I guess the same could be said for Homer, should Homer start to dominant over the next month or so and Maloney struggles in the bigs.

Outside of Maloney (and I'm not convinced that he's really the answer anyways, but at least he's left handed), I don't think the Reds have another option w/n the system at the moment. Affeldt would be the only other one that I could think of, but he's probably more usefull out of the pen than as a starter every 5th day. Plus if the Reds can't get back in the race, I'd think Affeldt could gain them a decent return at the trade deadline. Best to not let him get exposed as a starter, which he's never been all that great at.

chicoruiz
06-01-2008, 08:56 AM
I know it's crazy, but part of me would love to see Pettyjohn get a shot. He's lefthanded, he's coming off a very nice outing, and he's got a great back story.

Kc61
06-01-2008, 09:14 AM
[QUOTE]But here is what bothers me about Maloney right now...

Behind in Count ERA 4.73
Runners On ERA 8.22
Scoring Position ERA 13.50

And that is at the AAA level.

I have to think most of these bad numbers come from Maloney's bad April. In any event, he is 24, this is his first year at AAA (only a few outings last year) and probably could use the full season at Louisville with perhaps a September call up.

But the opportunity for Maloney is now. He's the logical guy in terms of experience and recent performance. He's also a lefty which helps. So I think we will see him soon and will have to be patient. Most of the write ups I've seen do project him as a major league starter, back of the rotation.

His minor league numbers since 2006 have been quite good, low hit totals, reasonable walk total, good strikeout numbers. So I think he has the potential to be a lot better than Belisle or Fogg. But fans will have to be patient.

GAC
06-01-2008, 09:32 AM
But the opportunity for Maloney is now. He's the logical guy in terms of experience and recent performance. He's also a lefty which helps. So I think we will see him soon and will have to be patient. Most of the write ups I've seen do project him as a major league starter, back of the rotation.

Oh I agree. Our options are pretty limited right now. Our rotation right now is Harang, Volquez, Arroyo, Cueto, and ????

Cueto needs to stay here. Just monitor this kid, watch his pitch counts, and let him gain the experience. Right now that's invaluable.

Over the last 4-5 weeks Bailey has been terrible. His last start was nice, but overall I'm not convinced yet that this kid is anywhere near ready...


Date OPP W L ERA SV IP H ER BB SO

Apr 25 @IND 0 1 6.00 0 6.0 6 4 3 6
Apr 30 TOL 1 0 3.86 0 7.0 5 3 2 10
May 05 @NOR 0 1 5.14 0 7.0 7 4 3 7
May 10 RIC 0 0 12.46 0 4.1 11 6 2 1
May 16 SWB 0 1 7.20 0 5.0 4 4 6 4
May 22 @TOL 0 0 9.00 0 5.0 6 5 5 6
May 27 @COL 0 0 1.50 0 6.0 5 1 4 4

membengal
06-01-2008, 11:09 AM
Re: the hand-wrining over Cueto.

He has been exactly what reasonable people expected. Inconsistent, with flashes of brlliance. There is no need to send him down.

61 innings pitched. 59 Ks. His stuff is fine. He's learning how to pitch to major league hitters and set them up appropriately to get them out. I think his progress has been exactly normal. This team is better with him in the rotation, bottom line.

As for the 5th spot. I join with others in noting that Fogg is not the guy. That's a "duh" statement. I assume Jocketty is on the same page at this point. If not, the Fogg beat-down in Philly next week against their lefties would be one for the ages.

For me, it's simple. Maloney gets the next shot. By no means is he the second coming of John Tudor, necessarily, but he is a well-seasoned 24-year-old with the minor league innings under his belt with a good resume of success that gives some indication he can get big league hitters out consistently enough to be an improvement on Belisle/Fogg. Add in that he's a lefty, something that would be nice to have in this rotation, and it is time that he got a shot. Worst case scenario? He himself gets Belisle'd/Fogg'd over three starts, and perhaps by then Bailey will have made a better argument for himself, or Thompson will have gone nuclear in AAA. But perhaps Maloney can be a steadying 4.75esque arm in the rotation. I think there is a chance he could be that. It needs to be him on the mound in Philly next week. I hope he is.

Spring~Fields
06-01-2008, 12:01 PM
For me, it's simple. Maloney gets the next shot. By no means is he the second coming of John Tudor, necessarily, but he is a well-seasoned 24-year-old with the minor league innings under his belt with a good resume of success that gives some indication he can get big league hitters out consistently enough to be an improvement on Belisle/Fogg. Add in that he's a lefty, something that would be nice to have in this rotation, and it is time that he got a shot. Worst case scenario? He himself gets Belisle'd/Fogg'd over three starts, and perhaps by then Bailey will have made a better argument for himself, or Thompson will have gone nuclear in AAA. But perhaps Maloney can be a steadying 4.75esque arm in the rotation. I think there is a chance he could be that. It needs to be him on the mound in Philly next week. I hope he is.

Each of you have presented enough to cause me to vacillate on the pitchers with the good reasons that each of you point out.

I like the way membengal presents his case, it appears to be the appropriate, comfortable fit and correlates with the rest of the consensus.

I do hand wring over Cueto, I just don't want him getting some mental picture in his mindset that creates self doubt in him coming into next season and end up being a Belisle or other's who pitch with what appears to be an expectation of negative outcomes and of course end up with a lack of faith in their stuff at the major league level, even though they have the pitches to make it.

Regarding Belisle, I wish that they would backed up a bit with him and while returning him to AAA to retool, that they would have kept him as a starter there to see if finishing out a year at AAA would have flushed his inconsistency from between his ears down to his finger tips. If nothing else to polish him up to be a part of a potential trade package. If it can work for some of the younger players and it can, it might have worked out for Belisle too, he has been kind of tossed around from reliever to starter between different managers and coaches coupled with some injuries.

VR
06-01-2008, 12:33 PM
I'd say the Reds should just call up Mario Soto to be the pitching coach, but I think they are concerned about his super 2 status.

Who on this staff is a better pitcher since Dick took over as pitching coach?

Spring~Fields
06-01-2008, 01:15 PM
I'd say the Reds should just call up Mario Soto to be the pitching coach, but I think they are concerned about his super 2 status.

Who on this staff is a better pitcher since Dick took over as pitching coach?

I can't think of any. I recall that Soto was quoted as saying that Cueto was pitching differently as he had watched him, I wonder if Dick made some tweaks here or there with Cueto?

WVRedsFan
06-01-2008, 01:46 PM
I can't think of any. I recall that Soto was quoted as saying that Cueto was pitching differently as he had watched him, I wonder if Dick made some tweaks here or there with Cueto?

I thought the same thing. Who was tinkering with him and why did they have to call Soto in to correct it?

We had Gullett and he was fired because of non-production. I thought Verne Ruhle did a good job as we saw some improvement in the staff. Of course he got sick and passed away and now we have Pole. Is it the coach or the arms? I don't know, but when our pitchers go elsewhere and do really well (witness the game with Pittsurgh the other night when Dumitrait pitched or what Ryan Franklin is doing in St. Louis), you have to wonder.

oregonred
06-01-2008, 03:46 PM
Send Cueto down to AAA post haste so we can have two open slots in the rotation.

Giving up a lowly bunt single and one walk over 6 innings to a bunch of scrub hitters like the Braves is unacceptable and shows he's simply not ready at this level :D

K'ing Johnson right there to end the 6th was huge as Chipper was on deck with the tying run :thumbup:

Spring~Fields
06-01-2008, 06:03 PM
I thought the same thing. Who was tinkering with him and why did they have to call Soto in to correct it?



Well Cueto had a better outing today than I have seen him for awhile, that was encouraging, perhaps they called a better game for him today, he seemed to execute just fine to me.



DATE OPP RESULT IP H R ER HR BB SO GB FB TBF #Pit Dec. Rel. ERA
5/27 PIT W 9-6 5.0 9 3 2 0 3 4 7 4 27 119 W(2-5) -- 5.56
5/21 @LAD L 2-5 5.0 7 4 2 0 3 2 8 5 26 114 L(2-4) -- 5.75
5/16 CLE W 4-3 6.0 3 3 3 3 2 7 7 8 24 96 -- -- 5.91
5/11 @NYM L 3-8 4.2 8 6 6 2 3 5 2 8 24 98 L(2-3) -- 5.27
5/5 CHC W 5-3 6.0 6 3 3 1 2 8 5 7 26 108 W(1-3) -- 5.40
4/29 @STL L 2-7 1.2 8 7 6 0 1 2 3 2 14 55 L(1-2) -- 4.05
4/24 HOU L 3-5 7.0 8 5 5 1 2 2 10 11 30 99 L(1-1) -- 3.42
4/19 MIL L 3-5 7.0 5 3 2 1 2 5 10 9 29 99 -- -- 3.72
4/13 @PIT L 1-9 6.0 5 5 5 2 1 6 6 8 24 82 L(1-0) -- 2.03
4/8 @MIL L 2-3 6.1 5 2 2 1 0 8 5 7 24 96 -- -- 1.29

Spring~Fields
06-01-2008, 06:13 PM
You may be right about Cueto. Personally, when you look at/compare Volquez and Cueto you're seeing the difference an extra year or two of development makes. From 2005-2007, Volquez got ML exposure by pitching in 14 games for Texas. Cueto's career has been majority as a single A ballplayer. He started last season in Sarasota. He finally got some exposure at AA and then AAA level (3 games).
So I'm not surprised at Johnny's struggles. One can see that Volquez is further along on that curve then Cueto. Cueto's struggles are due to immaturity. Not that he doesn't possess the tools.

And watching Cueto is why I oppose bringing Thompson up here.

He pitched well today, much better, I am not always convinced that it is all the young pitchers problem when outings swing like this one. Though the examples that we use for experience, maturity etc actually goes for each of the younger pitcher's that lack major league experience, I know that you are not being selective here but it is easy to do.

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 11:59 AM
Send Cueto down to AAA post haste so we can have two open slots in the rotation.

Giving up a lowly bunt single and one walk over 6 innings to a bunch of scrub hitters like the Braves is unacceptable and shows he's simply not ready at this level :D

K'ing Johnson right there to end the 6th was huge as Chipper was on deck with the tying run :thumbup:


From the John Fay Blog:
Johnny Cueto walked a total of eight batters in his first seven starts this season. Wednesday night, he equaled that total in five innings.

Cueto's line: 5 innings, 6 hits, 6 runs, 6 earned runs, 8 walks, 2 strikeouts. He threw 101 pitches, only 50 of which were strikes. Half the hitters he walked scored.

Cueto got an out to start the game. He then walked the next two hitters on a total of nine pitches. Rick Ankiel hit the first pitch he saw out and it was 3-0. Cueto walked the next hitter and then got an out. He feel behind former Red Jason LaRue 2-0. LaRue sent one in the seats in left for his first home run of the year.

The eight walks were the most by a Reds pitcher since Steve Avery walked nine on June 29, 1999. It was the most by a Reds right-hander since Bruce Berenyi walked eight April 17, 1982.

The Reds didn't have a hit off Braden Looper until Ken Griffey Jr. doubled with two outs in the fourth.

Are we sure that we want Pole and Baker to continue to bring this kid along getting his experience with them at the big league level ? Sure the kid has the stuff to pitch at this level, but does he have what it takes under his coaches and their guidance?

On the other side of the fence, Duncans pitcher with St. Louis enjoyed a career night while breezing through Dusty Baker's lineup throwing just 98 pitches, 63 for strikes, while Baker's lineup managed just three hits against Looper's 9 inning, 3 hit, 4 strikeout, career best night shutout.


B. Looper (W, 8-5) 9.0 3 0 0 0 4 0 4.34

Joseph
06-12-2008, 03:27 PM
I don't know that we'll have an option to be rid of Pole, he's a Dusty man, and Cast just isn't gonna fire Dusty.

Spring~Fields
06-12-2008, 03:44 PM
I don't know that we'll have an option to be rid of Pole, he's a Dusty man, and Cast just isn't gonna fire Dusty.

I don't want Dusty fired, I just want him to make a couple adjustments in the way that he goes about things. Pole, I have a problem with, but, I can never get anyone to say who is really the outstanding pitching coaches, so that it could be determined if Pole could really be replaced with better options, I don't know. I guess if one was out there, that the Reds would hire him.

PuffyPig
06-12-2008, 04:04 PM
But here is what bothers me about Maloney right now...

Behind in Count ERA 4.73
Runners On ERA 8.22
Scoring Position ERA 13.50

And that is at the AAA level.





So to summarize:

Maloney gives up more runs when behind in the count, than when ahead.

Maloney gives up more runs when runners are on base than when the bases are empty.

And finally, Maloney gives up more runs when runners are in scoring postion than when the bases are empty.

I couldn't image why every pitcher in the world wouldn't follow the same script.

oregonred
06-12-2008, 04:37 PM
Cueto struggled bigtime against the Cards (once again) but his last two outings were very solid. That's the ups and downs of what we have to live with in developing a 22-year old youngster. He's the 4th starter -- which is a different thread title topic :)

As for the elusive 5th starter. Unbelieveable that we can't seem to find someone who could simply post a 5.00-5.25 type ERA although the well documented defensive issues are surely a contributing factor. The Cardinals, for example, seem to almost never have issues finding 1-2 castoff rotation guys every year that come in and post league average or better numbers.

Will M
06-16-2008, 01:09 PM
Reds 5th starters:

Bailey ERA 8.76
Belisle ERA 7.28
Fogg ERA 9.85

The Reds are 3-9 in games started by out 5th starters this year.
Actually we are lucky to have won three of these games.

oregonred
06-17-2008, 12:25 AM
Reds 5th starters:

Bailey ERA 8.76
Belisle ERA 7.28
Fogg ERA 9.85

The Reds are 3-9 in games started by out 5th starters this year.
Actually we are lucky to have won three of these games.

Good lord. That's Josias Manzanillo and Jeff Austin territory. Finding an innings eating 5th starter who could simply post 150-160 IP of 5-5.25 ERA ball would immediately drop the currently constructed staff ERA into league average or better territory (~4.00 ERA) and that's with the well documented defensive issues that likely provide at least another tenth or two penalty in team ERA.

I think a full year of Belisle would have made the 5th slot statistically respectable by season's end.

Mario-Rijo
06-17-2008, 12:30 AM
Didn't Jocketty acquire Ponson one other time? :confused:

Will M
06-17-2008, 05:42 PM
Good lord. That's Josias Manzanillo and Jeff Austin territory. Finding an innings eating 5th starter who could simply post 150-160 IP of 5-5.25 ERA ball would immediately drop the currently constructed staff ERA into league average or better territory (~4.00 ERA) and that's with the well documented defensive issues that likely provide at least another tenth or two penalty in team ERA.

I think a full year of Belisle would have made the 5th slot statistically respectable by season's end.

The Reds signed Fogg instead of Lohse. Lohse did get more money but both were one year deals. I doubt we would have gotten the 2008 (ERA 3.77) version of Lohse but the 2007 (ERA ~4.60) version would have been a vast improvement over what we have this year in the #5 slot.

Chip R
06-17-2008, 05:47 PM
I see where the Royals released Brett Tomko.

remdog
06-17-2008, 06:21 PM
Homer Bailey reminds me of a young Brett Tomko----except Tomko was better. Is this the future we have to look forward with Homer?

Rem

WVRedsFan
06-17-2008, 06:46 PM
The Reds signed Fogg instead of Lohse. Lohse did get more money but both were one year deals. I doubt we would have gotten the 2008 (ERA 3.77) version of Lohse but the 2007 (ERA ~4.60) version would have been a vast improvement over what we have this year in the #5 slot.


The Fogg signing has baffled me for a long time. I know the argument--who else was there, and besides, he got a pretty good pitcher for Lohse (the jury's still out of that), but we could have had Lohse for last year and this year and my guess is 4 for 5 more wins, but I could be wrong.

Will M
06-17-2008, 06:53 PM
The Fogg signing has baffled me for a long time. I know the argument--who else was there, and besides, he got a pretty good pitcher for Lohse (the jury's still out of that), but we could have had Lohse for last year and this year and my guess is 4 for 5 more wins, but I could be wrong.

i believe at the time Fogg was cheap ($1M) and Lohse was still holding out for say $8M for one year. then shortly after we signed Fogg Lohse signed with the Cards

Homer Bailey
06-17-2008, 07:06 PM
I see where the Royals released Brett Tomko.

Doc Rogers was talking about that after the game on Saturday on WLW. I think the Reds are better off going with youth to gain them some experience.

RedlegJake
06-17-2008, 07:24 PM
i believe at the time Fogg was cheap ($1M) and Lohse was still holding out for say $8M for one year. then shortly after we signed Fogg Lohse signed with the Cards

That's right. The answer is simply money. Lohse was, the FO bet, not enough better than Fogg to warrant the huge difference. They were wrong. Simple as that.

RedsManRick
06-17-2008, 07:29 PM
Doc Rogers was talking about that after the game on Saturday on WLW. I think the Reds are better off going with youth to gain them some experience.

Jocketty expressed this same perspective today. They'd look at castoffs, but are inclined to keep riding the youth train.

HokieRed
06-17-2008, 07:42 PM
Too bad somebody didn't think to add Corey Patterson's money to that paid Fogg and re-sign Lohse. No wonder Wayne is gone.

WVRedsFan
06-18-2008, 01:21 AM
Too bad somebody didn't think to add Corey Patterson's money to that paid Fogg and re-sign Lohse. No wonder Wayne is gone.

Ding-ding-ding. We have a winner.

Ron Madden
06-18-2008, 04:58 AM
I still think they should have stuck with Matt Belisle a little bit longer. He is still young and has great stuff.

The 2007 season was really his first shot at being a starter and he worked the most innings he ever pitched in his life. He was injured in sping training and (IMHO) never given a fair chance in 2008.

I honestly believe Belisle would have put up above average numbers for a 5th starter if given the chance.

SMcGavin
06-18-2008, 04:18 PM
I still think they should have stuck with Matt Belisle a little bit longer. He is still young and has great stuff.

The 2007 season was really his first shot at being a starter and he worked the most innings he ever pitched in his life. He was injured in sping training and (IMHO) never given a fair chance in 2008.

I honestly believe Belisle would have put up above average numbers for a 5th starter if given the chance.

Agreed.

HokieRed
06-18-2008, 04:23 PM
Problem with these arguments about Belisle is that he has been given a chance. His performance at Louisville and at Cincinnati--both in relief and as a starter--is actually very consistent. WHIP around 1.5--too high to be effective. It's well past time to just give up the idea that Belisle is a major league pitcher. He would only be considered even marginally so on a very bad club, and the idea is for the Reds to get better than that.

Matt700wlw
06-18-2008, 04:30 PM
I still think they should have stuck with Matt Belisle a little bit longer. He is still young and has great stuff.



It's all upstairs...he doesn't have it. Makes stupid pitches in bad situations and doesn't learn from it...because he continues to do it.

He doesn't fool people very often.

The_jbh
06-18-2008, 04:35 PM
Homer Bailey is listed as the starter for Saturday's game against New York at Yankee Stadium.

That could change to Daryl Thompson.

"We don't know yet," Reds manager Dusty Baker said.
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Thompson was impressive in spring training. He's pitching well in the minors. And he's on the 40-man roster.

Thompson, a 22-year-old right-hander, is 3-0 with a 3.25 ERA at Triple-A Louisville. He was 3-2 with a 1.76 ERA at Double-A Chattanooga before getting promoted.

He is coming off an 82/3 inning, one-run outing for Louisville.

His strikeout-to-walk ratio is 78-18. Bailey's was 55-31 in the minors.

Yankee Stadium is a difficult place to make your big-league debut, but Thompson made his spring training debut against the Yankees and struck out the side.

The other alternative is Josh Fogg. Fogg, rehabbing from back spasms, pitched Monday night for the Sarasota Reds of the Florida State League.

He gave up two runs on six hits in the 51/3 innings. Both runs scored after he left the game.

Fogg, however, is 1-2 with a 9.85 ERA in three starts for the Reds.

If the Reds are to replace Bailey in the rotation, they could call up a reliever until a starter is needed on Saturday.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20080618/SPT04/806180331/

looks like Thompson is next in line. I think we pull the trigger. Maloney is struggling, Thompson just came off a 8 and 2/3 inning start in Louisville where he excelled. Lets see what he can do.

RedsManRick
06-18-2008, 05:06 PM
It's all upstairs...he doesn't have it. Makes stupid pitches in bad situations and doesn't learn from it...because he continues to do it.

He doesn't fool people very often.

I agree with everything you said. And yet, in 30 starts last year he posted a 5.32 ERA supported by a 1.435 WHIP. He was one of the better 5th starters in baseball. He's not good by any stretch of the imagination, but he's certainly better than Bailey at this point and has more upside than Fogg.

He remains the best available option in my book, Thompson notwithstanding.

Big Klu
06-18-2008, 11:22 PM
Too bad somebody didn't think to add Corey Patterson's money to that paid Fogg and re-sign Lohse. No wonder Wayne is gone.


Ding-ding-ding. We have a winner.

Who's to say whether Lohse would have signed with the Reds, even if they had made him an offer. I always got the impression that he didn't like it in Cincinnati. (I have no evidence to support that--it's just an observation.)