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View Full Version : Are you happy with the direction of this franchise? Who do you credit/blame if yes/no



Cedric
06-01-2008, 11:20 PM
Simple question, simple answers.

Mario-Rijo
06-01-2008, 11:28 PM
Absolutely and I voted Krivsky shouldn't have got the axe. That said he definitely needed to quit being so anal about moving guys through the system a bit faster. If it starts to falter I will blame no one but Mr. C for being so impatient and lacking vision.

Highlifeman21
06-02-2008, 12:33 AM
Our depth is the lovechild of the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy, and I guaran-damn-tee that not all our prospects will develop to make a positive impact on our MLB roster, so Jocketty should do what he knows best (which is trading younger question marks for older periods or exclamation points).

Our 25 man roster needs more talent, and that talent most certainly isn't coming from within our organization.

redsmetz
06-02-2008, 06:14 AM
As often happens with polls such as this one, the option I'd pick isn't there. I'm somewhat in the middle. I believe Krivsky did a good job (not without flaws, mind you), but I'm unsettled about the recent happenings from the front office. I'm cautiously optimistic and like the overall direction, particularly with the youngsters. But, there has been a long time of mediocrity from the Reds and that's going to take a while to undo before I'm considerably optimistic.

(Note) - I've changed my mind slightly and picked option 1. That seems like what I'm saying above to some degree.

mth123
06-02-2008, 06:43 AM
I'm happy with the team and its direction. I think Krivsky did a lot to get the team into position to make the next step. He didn't burn the young talent he inherited and he added to the base with Arroyo, Hamilton/Volquez, Burton and Phillips.

I do think Krivsky had problems assembling the roster. He and his staff did a great job finding young pieces to add to the core on the cheap, but when actually putting the roster together, I questioned some of his moves for the Castro, Conine, Cormier type guys that he seemed to be unable to resist for some reason.

I was a critic of Krivsky, but I didn't think he should be fired. I did want Jocketty as president to mentor WK on putting the roster together, bullpen assembly and to help him cover his blind spots. But, it appears that the front office wasn't big enough for the two of them. I'm a little nervous about Jocketty having full power though. I hope he doesn't burn-up too much of the pipeline to fill holes.

Degenerate39
06-02-2008, 08:10 AM
Yes, I'm happy with the movement of youth that Walt seems to be concentrating on. Getting rid of Luhr and Shearn and calling up Thompson to Triple A. I just don't think Wayne would've done that so I'm pretty happy with Walt so far but Wayne deserves alot of credit.

Unassisted
06-02-2008, 09:47 AM
As often happens with polls such as this one, the option I'd pick isn't there. I'm somewhat in the middle. I believe Krivsky did a good job (not without flaws, mind you), but I'm unsettled about the recent happenings from the front office.
Me too. I believe Castellini fixed something that wasn't broken and I haven't seen enough Jocketty moves since he took over to form an opinion on his work.

REDREAD
06-02-2008, 09:47 AM
Simple question, simple answers.

Need another reply.

Yes, I am happy with the direction Walt is taking this club, and I hope he continues to rework it. Walt's moves of bringing up Bruce and Hairston have really ignited the club. Wayne would've prefered Castro and Patterson.

HokieRed
06-02-2008, 10:15 AM
I don't think Krivsky should have been fired, though I'm liking what I see as a more decisive style in Jocketty and a change in philosophy regarding AAA--as a place to put prospects not possible reclamation projects. Krivsky deserves some credit, but, at this point, considerably less, in my view, than the much underrated Dan O'Brien, who drafted Bruce (and Bailey) and signed Cueto. While the minor league talent is better than it was prior to O'Brien's coming, I'm not convinced it is as good as it would be if O'Brien had run the last four drafts and continued to be in control of the organization.

OnBaseMachine
06-02-2008, 11:01 AM
Need another reply.

Yes, I am happy with the direction Walt is taking this club, and I hope he continues to rework it. Walt's moves of bringing up Bruce and Hairston have really ignited the club. Wayne would've prefered Castro and Patterson.

Jerry Hairston Jr. was called up by Wayne Krivsky, not Walt.

westofyou
06-02-2008, 11:06 AM
Jerry Hairston Jr. was called up by Wayne Krivsky, not Walt.

And Walt waited for the Super Two status too.... that of course will be blamed on Krivsky.. I wouldn't doubt the Cicada shells on everyones back porch probably will be too.

WVRedsFan
06-02-2008, 11:32 AM
Calling up Hairston may have been Krivsky's final act as a GM. I think three days later he was history.

IslandRed
06-02-2008, 11:39 AM
I'm happy with the team and its direction. I think Krivsky did a lot to get the team into position to make the next step. He didn't burn the young talent he inherited and he added to the base with Arroyo, Hamilton/Volquez, Burton and Phillips.

I do think Krivsky had problems assembling the roster. He and his staff did a great job finding young pieces to add to the core on the cheap, but when actually putting the roster together, I questioned some of his moves for the Castro, Conine, Cormier type guys that he seemed to be unable to resist for some reason.

I was a critic of Krivsky, but I didn't think he should be fired. I did want Jocketty as president to mentor WK on putting the roster together, bullpen assembly and to help him cover his blind spots. But, it appears that the front office wasn't big enough for the two of them. I'm a little nervous about Jocketty having full power though. I hope he doesn't burn-up too much of the pipeline to fill holes.

That's largely my opinion also, and I guess that most closely correlates with option #2 above. I don't think Krivsky deserved to be fired but that doesn't mean we're worse off with Jocketty. He will probably do a better job of turning the collected talent into a cohesive roster than Krivsky did.

I do hope Jocketty leaves well enough alone with the farm system, development-wise. I don't mind him actively trading from the system, though. Prospects often have more value as trading chips than they ever will as actual big-leaguers. The key, as always, is to know who the keepers are.

RedsManRick
06-02-2008, 11:49 AM
2008 really stands to be a turning point for this organization. Griffey is clearly on the wane. The rash of ugly multi-year contracts for replacement level players seems to be over. Three of the big four are up to stay, with Bailey likely joining them on a permanent basis at same point this summer. Volquez has been a revelation. Harang, Arroyo, and Phillips are signed long term.

The talent on the 25 man roster is capable of sustained above .500 ball. There is bullpen help on the way shortly in the minors.

The organization has already moved, talent-wise, from basement-dweller to respectability. The next 8-10 months are the chance to take the next step forward. Luckily, a lot of that could happen automatically, with the continued development of young talent not yet contributing significantly. But I think we're one more all-star caliber talent away from division winning potential, and that's assuming we keep Dunn. It's simply not reasonable to expect all of the young talent to pan out.

Maybe that player comes from within, with EE living up to his .875 OPS potential. Maybe Jocketty makes a move utilizing some of the minor league talent. Bottom line, we're on our way but not there yet. Jocketty's decision regarding Dunn and maximizing the minor league pipeline to put us in a position to leverage the cheap production of our pre-arb group will go far in determining how we fare in the years to come.

The good news as I see it is that we have a talent base that will prevent us from collapsing in any given year. Even a poor season should be in the mid 70's win-wise. And if things break right, we have wild-card potential as soon as this year. That justifies a general optimism I haven't felt since 1999-2000.

Both Dan O'Brien (drafting) and Krivksy (trades, player development) deserve credit for the resurgence. More than anything else it's been a recognition that you cannot buy a winner, let alone a sustainable one. Money can help you sustain a winning organization, but it can only play a small part in building it. Let's hope that recognition continues. Jocketty has been an opportunist throughout his career. The 2008 Reds are a great opportunity. Fingers crossed....

medford
06-02-2008, 12:16 PM
Like others, my option isn't there. I generally like the direction the club is headed, and there reallys is no one person that I can throw much of that credit towards.

From Dan O'Brien drafting Bruce (or was that Brad Kuhlman???) and insisting on minimizing the number of innings his minor league pitchers would throw, to Kriviskies acquisitions of Cordero, Phillips, Arroyo, etc... while not being afraid to trade off fan favorites like Wily Mo or Kearns, to Jocketty's (or is that Jockerrrrty George Grande) promotion of youth in the minor leagues w/o overpromoting (at least IMHO) any kids, to Castilini's increase in team buget, international signing buget, collected as solid a core of broadcasters this team has had.

With so much turnover in the leadership of this squad the last several years, there is no one place I can turn all the credit/blame towards. Dan'O helped establish/develop the farm system up to a respectable position following the Marge years. While his "take a first strike" approach sounds reasonable in theory, in practice it was a terrible experiment, however he was willing to go outside the box to best position this squad for the future

Krivisky gets high remarks for aquiring some solid talent on the cheap in Hamilton, Ross, & Phillips and wether you agree w/ the trades or not, he also had the stones to trade away fan favorites in an attempt to make the squad better. Many didn't like the Arroyo-Pena deal when it went down, but clearly the Reds won as Pena has done squat. Even more disliked the Kearns-lopez deal, but both have done little more than Wily Mo since leaving the Reds while Bray and Thompson are close to turning the "Trade" into a clear win for the Reds. Finally, Hamilton was a great story and a great talent that many came to love, but pitching was a much bigger need, and so far he's got the pitching version of Josh Hamilton in Volquez. Wouldn't it be great if Hamilton won the MVP of the AL, while Volquez took home the Cy Young?

Still to early to judge what Jocketty can do, but this will be a big offseason for this organization. The decisions they make w/ payroll, Dunn, JR, potentially extending young players before they reach arbition, etc... will be huge for the next 5 years. This team is well positioned with the right moves this offseason that they could reasonablly afford to have a very strong 5-7 year run. A team built around Bruce, Votto, Phillips, Harang, Volquez, Cueto, Dunn, etc.... could definently contend if the right pieces are put around them. I think they've currently got the right "major" pieces to the puzzle, now they just need a few corner pieces to round things out.

Part of me hopes/believes Castellini feels the same way, and that is why Jocketty is on board now.

OldRightHander
06-02-2008, 12:22 PM
The previous post just said everything that I could have added, so I won't even bother.

:thumbup:

M2
06-02-2008, 12:25 PM
I'm not sure what the direction of the franchise is at the moment. I like where the Reds are at much better than I have at any point this century, but I'm not sure where the club goes from here. I'm waiting to see what Jocketty's first major addition to the squad will be.

WebScorpion
06-02-2008, 01:10 PM
What direction? Up? Yea, I'm pretty happy with that. When they change direction to going down, I'll be unhappy again. I'm not going to pretend to be a Major League GM...I think Krivsky improved the team, especailly in the Minor Leagues. Would he have made the moves Jocketty made to improve the Major League team? I don't know, and it really doesn't matter to me. Jocketty is the GM and I hope he can put together a solid team with what he's been given. So far, it looks great! :thumbup:

KronoRed
06-02-2008, 02:05 PM
And Walt waited for the Super Two status too.... that of course will be blamed on Krivsky.. I wouldn't doubt the Cicada shells on everyones back porch probably will be too.

Walt is the new John Allen, gets the blame for everything to keep things simple, Walt will move into that role just as soon as a new name appears on the scene.

Marc D
06-02-2008, 02:10 PM
Love the direction the club is going, could care less about blame/credit for the FO types.

I would really love to see the Reds get to the point where we talk about upcoming series, recent wins, rag on other teams and their fans, second guess the manager etc...all the things you do on a message board when the team actually wins.

Its much more pleasurable than what we've been left with the past 7 years or so of fixing blame for the mess we are in, giving opinions of how to get out of it and defending your choices in both matters for eternity.

M2
06-02-2008, 02:16 PM
I would really love to see the Reds get to the point where we talk about upcoming series, recent wins, rag on other teams and their fans, second guess the manager etc...all the things you do on a message board when the team actually wins.

I'll second that.

Spring~Fields
06-02-2008, 02:19 PM
Yes, Krivsky deserves the credit and might have been able to finish the job.

Jocketty is now sitting at the table, playing with Krivsky's chips and Castellini's money and seems to be doing a good job with the resources that he inherited, and I fully expect Jocketty to manifest real dividends from those resources which will be a credit to Jocketty.

The season is not over and next year has yet to begin, investments take time to mature.

Joseph
06-02-2008, 02:37 PM
I too feel like its hard to tell the direction. I want to believe its youth, but Jock has a habit of trading young for old [successfully so usually] and I want to see what he does with the young talent.

Is he committing to a youth movement? Is he shining up the jewels of the farm system and planning to trade them off for the nuggets of another team?

I don't know. I'm not even sure Jock knows.

I'm eager to find out though.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2008, 02:42 PM
Love the direction the club is going, could care less about blame/credit for the FO types.

I would really love to see the Reds get to the point where we talk about upcoming series, recent wins, rag on other teams and their fans, second guess the manager etc...all the things you do on a message board when the team actually wins.

Its much more pleasurable than what we've been left with the past 7 years or so of fixing blame for the mess we are in, giving opinions of how to get out of it and defending your choices in both matters for eternity.

Absolutely, which is ironic that you say it because there's a thread about the divisional and w/c race already up. And not to hi-jack this thread but this Philly series could be really big for our chances at the w/c when it's all said and done. If anyone wants to discuss it go to "A bright spot".

No back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Cedric
06-02-2008, 02:44 PM
The options are clear. I said so!

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2008, 02:45 PM
The options are clear. I said so!

The man has a gun, I suggest you listen!!! :D

red-in-la
06-02-2008, 02:59 PM
2008 really stands to be a turning point for this organization. Griffey is clearly on the wane. The rash of ugly multi-year contracts for replacement level players seems to be over. Three of the big four are up to stay, with Bailey likely joining them on a permanent basis at same point this summer. Volquez has been a revelation. Harang, Arroyo, and Phillips are signed long term.

The talent on the 25 man roster is capable of sustained above .500 ball. There is bullpen help on the way shortly in the minors.

The organization has already moved, talent-wise, from basement-dweller to respectability. The next 8-10 months are the chance to take the next step forward. Luckily, a lot of that could happen automatically, with the continued development of young talent not yet contributing significantly. But I think we're one more all-star caliber talent away from division winning potential, and that's assuming we keep Dunn. It's simply not reasonable to expect all of the young talent to pan out.

Maybe that player comes from within, with EE living up to his .875 OPS potential. Maybe Jocketty makes a move utilizing some of the minor league talent. Bottom line, we're on our way but not there yet. Jocketty's decision regarding Dunn and maximizing the minor league pipeline to put us in a position to leverage the cheap production of our pre-arb group will go far in determining how we fare in the years to come.

The good news as I see it is that we have a talent base that will prevent us from collapsing in any given year. Even a poor season should be in the mid 70's win-wise. And if things break right, we have wild-card potential as soon as this year. That justifies a general optimism I haven't felt since 1999-2000.

Both Dan O'Brien (drafting) and Krivksy (trades, player development) deserve credit for the resurgence. More than anything else it's been a recognition that you cannot buy a winner, let alone a sustainable one. Money can help you sustain a winning organization, but it can only play a small part in building it. Let's hope that recognition continues. Jocketty has been an opportunist throughout his career. The 2008 Reds are a great opportunity. Fingers crossed....

Very precise post! I agree!

I do think you CAN buy a winner, but the price is over 100 million a year and the Reds simply will never spend that much. But the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Cubs and Angels (Maybe) are examples. The Cards and DBacks are temporarily at least, exceptions in that they really don't spend to win.

This club is a Danny Haren and a Josh Hamilton away from winning the division.....again, assuming Dunn stays and JR goes. If JR were to somehow find 40 HRs he could serve as the Josh Hamilton for at least this year. But I do not believe there is any way Homer can serve as that one last good starter that this team so badly needs.

bucksfan2
06-02-2008, 03:05 PM
Love the direction the club is going, could care less about blame/credit for the FO types.

I would really love to see the Reds get to the point where we talk about upcoming series, recent wins, rag on other teams and their fans, second guess the manager etc...all the things you do on a message board when the team actually wins.

Its much more pleasurable than what we've been left with the past 7 years or so of fixing blame for the mess we are in, giving opinions of how to get out of it and defending your choices in both matters for eternity.

I agree.

I don't really care who the GM is right now. I want to see winning baseball. I think Krivsky did a fantastic job as GM and thought he got a raw deal but that doesn't change how I feel about the Reds. Quite frankly if the departure of Krivsky means that we don't have to rehash "the trade" every few weeks than I am even more happy.

I like the path and the players the reds have now. I love that Bruce, Votto, Cueto, Volquez, and Phillips have been producing and under the reds control for the forseeable future. I like that when the Reds have a pitcher go down they can go to the minors and bring up on of the top pitching prospects in baseball.

Right now I don't care who is responsible I care that the Reds have a chance to make the summer interesting.

bucksfan2
06-02-2008, 03:27 PM
Very precise post! I agree!

I do think you CAN buy a winner, but the price is over 100 million a year and the Reds simply will never spend that much. But the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Cubs and Angels (Maybe) are examples. The Cards and DBacks are temporarily at least, exceptions in that they really don't spend to win.

This club is a Danny Haren and a Josh Hamilton away from winning the division.....again, assuming Dunn stays and JR goes. If JR were to somehow find 40 HRs he could serve as the Josh Hamilton for at least this year. But I do not believe there is any way Homer can serve as that one last good starter that this team so badly needs.

I don't think you can buy a winner in today's game. The Red Sox, Angels, and DBacks have built their team through the minors and trades as well as savy FA signings. Looking at the Red Sox with the exception of DiceK and ManRam they really haven't broken the bank for any prized FA's. They do have more financial flexability in order to take on big salaries via trade but they have also built the farm system to the point where they were able to make the big trades.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2008, 03:39 PM
I don't think you can buy a winner in today's game. The Red Sox, Angels, and DBacks have built their team through the minors and trades as well as savy FA signings. Looking at the Red Sox with the exception of DiceK and ManRam they really haven't broken the bank for any prized FA's. They do have more financial flexability in order to take on big salaries via trade but they have also built the farm system to the point where they were able to make the big trades.

J.D. Drew, Julio Lugo & maybe Mike Lowell should be considered in that equation.

REDREAD
06-02-2008, 04:58 PM
Jerry Hairston Jr. was called up by Wayne Krivsky, not Walt.

Yeah, you are right, 2 days before he was fired. Harriston called up Apr 21, Wayne canned Apr 23

But Wayne should've broke camp with Harriston on the opening day roster instead of his buddy Castro. Likewise, he could've called Bruce up on day 1 as well. I agree that Walt could've called Bruce up immediately as well, but at least he did it eventually.. In Walt's defense though, isn't he allowed a little bit of time to evaluate things before shaking things up, and since Bruce was already in AAA might as well wait 4 more weeks for Super Two...

REDREAD
06-02-2008, 05:01 PM
Walt is the new John Allen, gets the blame for everything to keep things simple, Walt will move into that role just as soon as a new name appears on the scene.

:confused: If that's a shot at me, I like Walt..

If you meant to say Wayne, then I disagree. Wayne wasn't all bad. He made some good moves and more bad ones.., he was never going to take us beyond a .500 record. That's why I'm glad he was fired.

REDREAD
06-02-2008, 05:06 PM
J.D. Drew, Julio Lugo & maybe Mike Lowell should be considered in that equation.

As well as Beckett (Marlins couldn't afford him) and that Japannese pitcher they paid 50 million for. Not to mention Manny Ramerez.. Ortiz was DFAed because the Twins couldn't pay him.

The Red Sox are just as "big market spending" as both NY teams and both LA teams. Frankly, they'd be dumb not to leverage their tremendous financial advantage. Don't blame them at all.. but let's not kid ourselves into thinking they are the A's with a little more money.

KronoRed
06-02-2008, 05:09 PM
:confused: If that's a shot at me, I like Walt..

If you meant to say Wayne, then I disagree. Wayne wasn't all bad. He made some good moves and more bad ones.., he was never going to take us beyond a .500 record. That's why I'm glad he was fired.

Yep I meant Wayne, and it wasn't a shot at anyone, but it does seem Wayne is getting a lot of blame for everything wrong this year and so far Walt hasn't really done anything that Wayne wasn't going to do (calling up bruce when it was past super 2 for example) but he's getting pats on the back.

REDREAD
06-02-2008, 05:28 PM
Yep I meant Wayne, and it wasn't a shot at anyone, but it does seem Wayne is getting a lot of blame for everything wrong this year and so far Walt hasn't really done anything that Wayne wasn't going to do (calling up bruce when it was past super 2 for example) but he's getting pats on the back.

I think sending down Belilse, Coffey, and Patterson were good moves.

I don't know if he's going to give the AAA guys a chance to take Fogg's job or not. We will have to wait and see how this all shakes out.

You must admit that Wayne also added a lot of bad players with bad contracts which really dragged the team down. And Burton was really the only good bullpen acquision he made, other than throwing mega money at Cordero..

Bottom line is that we will never know what Wayne was going to do because he's no longer here. So we have to judge him based on the opening day roster and statements he's made (such as how much it pained him to get rid of Castro)..

I'm not going to blindly love Walt. Sure, he's only done minor moves. It will be interesting to see what he does at the trade deadline and how he addresses Jr/Dunn..

Spring~Fields
06-02-2008, 05:42 PM
But Wayne should've broke camp with Harriston on the opening day roster instead of Bakers buddy Patterson. Likewise, he could've called Bruce up on day 1 as well.

I had to fix that oversight, er um typo for you........no charge this time. :)

DoogMinAmo
06-02-2008, 05:45 PM
I think sending down Belilse, Coffey, and Patterson were good moves.

I don't know if he's going to give the AAA guys a chance to take Fogg's job or not. We will have to wait and see how this all shakes out.

You must admit that Wayne also added a lot of bad players with bad contracts which really dragged the team down. And Burton was really the only good bullpen acquision he made, other than throwing mega money at Cordero..

Bottom line is that we will never know what Wayne was going to do because he's no longer here. So we have to judge him based on the opening day roster and statements he's made (such as how much it pained him to get rid of Castro)..

I'm not going to blindly love Walt. Sure, he's only done minor moves. It will be interesting to see what he does at the trade deadline and how he addresses Jr/Dunn..


Coffey was Wayne, Patterson volunteered to go down. Was Fogg better than Belisle for that start against the Braves? Wayne was a good GM, not amazing but good. Walt is not your savior.

It sure seems like you are either so starved for change you are blindly loving Walt, or really, really disliked Krivsky.

red-in-la
06-02-2008, 05:45 PM
I don't think you can buy a winner in today's game. The Red Sox, Angels, and DBacks have built their team through the minors and trades as well as savy FA signings. Looking at the Red Sox with the exception of DiceK and ManRam they really haven't broken the bank for any prized FA's. They do have more financial flexability in order to take on big salaries via trade but they have also built the farm system to the point where they were able to make the big trades.

I didn't say that you had to buy everybody on your team.....but just look at the Red Sox.....what did Dice-K cost them? Didn't they pay out millions just to talk to Dice-K?

Boston is paying David Ortiz milions and millions plus Rammy and lots of bucks to others.

The Yankees just BUY.....but other blend.

This old argument......look at a list of the playoff teams from the last few years and half of them are HUGE money spenders.

RedsManRick
06-02-2008, 06:44 PM
I didn't say that you had to buy everybody on your team.....but just look at the Red Sox.....what did Dice-K cost them? Didn't they pay out millions just to talk to Dice-K?

Boston is paying David Ortiz milions and millions plus Rammy and lots of bucks to others.

The Yankees just BUY.....but other blend.

This old argument......look at a list of the playoff teams from the last few years and half of them are HUGE money spenders.

Yup. But often that HUGE money is HUGE money given to players who were acquired through the draft or in trades. Rarely is the reason why you were able to acquire the player, as in the case of Daisuke. Sure, the Red Sox are helped immensely by being able to go out and get Matsuzaka. Sure, taking the fiscal risk on Lowell faciliated the Beckett trade - but it still required giving up Hanley Ramirez. They traded for 'Tek. They signed Oritz for a million bucks. They signed Okajima cheaply. They developed Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, and Jon Papelbon.

Money helps you survive mistakes (Clements, Drew) and hold on to your own (Papi, 'Tek). But you can't build through money. The builk of your talent comes from smart decisions in drafting and trades. Money might be the top speed of your organizational car, but you win the race because of how well you drive. The Reds will never win out in a straight sprint, but at least it seems they're headed down the right path for a change.

GAC
06-02-2008, 08:41 PM
I didn't vote because I'm not going to cry that Krivsky is gone. Just think the guy got a raw deal from this owner.


Yeah, you are right, 2 days before he was fired. Harriston called up Apr 21, Wayne canned Apr 23

But Wayne should've broke camp with Harriston on the opening day roster instead of his buddy Castro. Likewise, he could've called Bruce up on day 1 as well.

People need to remember that Bruce did not have a stellar ST, while Patterson did. And also remember that Jay even strained/slightly injured a quad muscle during the spring. After being sent back down Bruce acknowledged that he was really feeling the pressure, and was pressing really hard to try and make the squad.

That is the kind of pressure that I don't want to see placed on a young prospect. There was no rush to bring this kid up immediately. Especially if he was hurt. Let him physically recover, get his head back together, and take the pressure off of him. He was going to be up here eventually at some point of this season regardless of who the GM was IMO.


In Walt's defense though, isn't he allowed a little bit of time to evaluate things before shaking things up

Yes he should. I am extending the same "courtesy" to Walt that I was giving Wayne. But in Krivsky's first year, many were nailing this guy by the AS break. And they were calling for his head for not improving this team by the end of his first year. ;)

Now we're saying we need to exercise patience with Walt, and, as some have already stated, he needs 2-3 years to "turn it around" and implement his plan?

What has changed?

The impression Bob C gave the fans, after the team's slow start in April, was he wanted the losing to stop immediately, and firing Wayne and installing Jocketty would move us in the direction to correct that.

So did an impetuous owner simply bull the fans in order to supplant his good friend?

I have no problem at all with Jocketty at the helm. I support Jocketty. It's this owner that I'm starting to have doubts over.

I've heard many on this forum contend that this team is very poorly constructed. I think that is a poor choice of words IMO.

You've got key (contributing) players on this current starting roster from three previous regimes (GMs) that are our future or can be built on...

Dunn, Harang, Encarnacion, Votto....Bowden

Bruce and Cueto.... Dan O'Brien

Arroyo, Phillips, Volquez, Keppinger, Burton... Krivsky

Some may want to amend that list; but that is just a quick overview.

All of these previous GMs made plus moves as well as blunders. But there is a foundation there that Jocketty can build upon.

That's the question before Walt.... what additions (tweaks) is he going to make to ADD to what we already have?

To suggest that he has 2-3 years to accomplish that, when I look at what we currently possess, IMHO, boggles my mind.

Spring~Fields
06-02-2008, 09:21 PM
People need to remember that Bruce did not have a stellar ST, while Patterson did. And also remember that Jay even strained/slightly injured a quad muscle during the spring. After being sent back down Bruce acknowledged that he was really feeling the pressure, and was pressing really hard to try and make the squad.



Dusty is that you :wave:

Jay is not a leadoff hitter. Patterson is remember ? :p:

How about Votto, his was less than stellar. ;)

red-in-la
06-02-2008, 09:34 PM
Yup. But often that HUGE money is HUGE money given to players who were acquired through the draft or in trades. Rarely is the reason why you were able to acquire the player, as in the case of Daisuke. Sure, the Red Sox are helped immensely by being able to go out and get Matsuzaka. Sure, taking the fiscal risk on Lowell faciliated the Beckett trade - but it still required giving up Hanley Ramirez. They traded for 'Tek. They signed Oritz for a million bucks. They signed Okajima cheaply. They developed Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, and Jon Papelbon.

Money helps you survive mistakes (Clements, Drew) and hold on to your own (Papi, 'Tek). But you can't build through money. The builk of your talent comes from smart decisions in drafting and trades. Money might be the top speed of your organizational car, but you win the race because of how well you drive. The Reds will never win out in a straight sprint, but at least it seems they're headed down the right path for a change.

We agree.....I just put stock in the money than you do I guess. I live in LA and have watched the Dodgers and the Angels blow more money than the Reds use......as such, I see how little risk trading or signing players is for them.

And I know you can spend tons of money and have an awful team, but you still don't necessarily stay down as long from your mistakes.

Vada Pinson Fan
06-02-2008, 10:44 PM
I'm happy with the direction of this team when I consider the previous seven seasons and the management responsible for that misdirection. Castellini wants to win. That's clear enough for any Reds fan to see. The Reds are slowly but surely piecing together a team that can and will contend for the foreseeable future with one caveat, and that being the resolution of the contracts of Griffey and Dunn and to a lesser degree the remaining 2008 potential Reds free agents. Griffey can no longer perform at a level worthy of next year's reported 16.5 million dollar salary and will have next year's option bought out if he isn't traded before then. Dunn's representatives hopefully won't ask for the bank and will want to stay in Cincinnati. AD's stats won't be replaced (easily or otherwise) if he isn't re-signed.

With the young players developing in the high minors and those now on the Reds roster, we fans finally have realistic hope of reaching the playoffs beginning next year and a wild-card this year wouldn't be out of the question if the Reds can start winning at a .500 clip on the road and winning at home near the rate they are now.

Mario-Rijo
06-02-2008, 11:59 PM
All of these previous GMs made plus moves as well as blunders. But there is a foundation there that Jocketty can build upon.

That's the question before Walt.... what additions (tweaks) is he going to make to ADD to what we already have?

To suggest that he has 2-3 years to accomplish that, when I look at what we currently possess, IMHO, boggles my mind.

Agreed, this team is actually not far off. Especially if you can find that one last starter who is an innings eater and a CF bat who is a good leadoff man (easier said than done). If you can do those 2 things and continue to find out which young relief pitchers fit the puzzle you just about have it licked. I think if you can fill the CF role and the Catcher offensively speaking then you can get away with playing Janish full time at SS for his defense.

MWM
06-03-2008, 12:25 AM
Nope. Mettling owner who's stuck in the past and an overall organization lacking in forward thinking. It's not about a single move, or even a handful of moves. It's about overall organizational culture. There's few things I dislike more than old and stale thinking from people who don't want to bring themselves into the modern day. that's my perception of Castellini. And I've always been a fan of Jocketty, but I do have concerns about the reasons behind his ouster in St. Louis.

GAC
06-03-2008, 09:32 PM
Nope. Mettling owner who's stuck in the past and an overall organization lacking in forward thinking. It's not about a single move, or even a handful of moves. It's about overall organizational culture. There's few things I dislike more than old and stale thinking from people who don't want to bring themselves into the modern day. that's my perception of Castellini. And I've always been a fan of Jocketty, but I do have concerns about the reasons behind his ouster in St. Louis.

That exactly my perception too Mike.

And I support Jocketty and recognize his impressive resume with the Cards. But this guy is ousted two short years after his team wins the WS?

GAC
06-03-2008, 09:37 PM
Dusty is that you :wave:

Jay is not a leadoff hitter. Patterson is remember ? :p:

How about Votto, his was less than stellar. ;)

Votto is older, been in the system longer, and wasn't recovering from an injury either. ;)

It's a numbers game. Patterson had a heck of an ST. No one can predict the future as to what Patt's performance was going to be the first two months of the season. Yes, they can make some sort of "educated" guess; but IMO it simply bought Bruce some time to get himself together physically and mentally, take some pressure off, and he was brought up at the right time.

As good as Bruce is, this kid is not the savior of the '08 season. So lets not put too much pressure on this 21 yr old. ;)

REDREAD
06-03-2008, 10:01 PM
Coffey was Wayne, Patterson volunteered to go down. Was Fogg better than Belisle for that start against the Braves? Wayne was a good GM, not amazing but good. Walt is not your savior.

It sure seems like you are either so starved for change you are blindly loving Walt, or really, really disliked Krivsky.

No, Coffey was Walt:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/transactions?team=cin

April 29, 2008 Recalled pitcher Bill Bray from Louisville of the International League (AAA); optioned pitcher Todd Coffey to Louisville.

Wayne was canned Apr 24..

Patterson did volunteer to go down, but Dusty said that he appreciated that Corey volunteered because they were going to have to have "the talk".. I mean, honestly, with Bruce up, don't you think Patterson's days were numbered? Regardless of whether Patterson volunteered or not, the deed was done by Walt, not Wayne.

The 5th starter is a mess, thanks to Wayne's choices. It was a good move to send Belisle to AAA to try to convert him to a reliever. Worth a shot before DFAing him.. Fogg only got one start before being put on the DL. Wayne gave him 3 starts.. In defense of both GMs, perhaps Fogg has been hurt all season and never said anything.. Who knows..

Basically, my point is that all of Walt's moves so far have been good. Have they been minor moves for the most part? Yes. You might think they are no brainers, but apparently Wayne didn't think they were worth doing..

REDREAD
06-03-2008, 10:14 PM
People need to remember that Bruce did not have a stellar ST, while Patterson did. And also remember that Jay even strained/slightly injured a quad muscle during the spring. After being sent back down Bruce acknowledged that he was really feeling the pressure, and was pressing really hard to try and make the squad.

That is the kind of pressure that I don't want to see placed on a young prospect.


You know. I agree with that. I'm just saying that if people criticize Walt for waiting until Super 2 to call up Bruce, then logically Wayne deserves fault for not putting Bruce on the opening day roster.






. But in Krivsky's first year, many were nailing this guy by the AS break. And they were calling for his head for not improving this team by the end of his first year. ;)


Wayne's first year was just downright crazy. He made the best and worst moves of his career. Now, if Walt makes a blatantly stupid trade, such as giving away EdE and Votto for a handful of beans, then he gets less rope.






Now we're saying we need to exercise patience with Walt, and, as some have already stated, he needs 2-3 years to "turn it around" and implement his plan?

What has changed?


I can only speak for myself, but Wayne had 2+ seasons to show Cast that the team was improving. Instead, the W-L record got worse. A lot of bad contracts were given out. He was a horrible people person. He refused to acknowledge his mistakes. He'd either rationalize away his mistakes (like getting cash for Deno) or blame someone else (grievance against Bowden).
Now, I don't expect a GM to have a press conference and beg the fans for forgiveness after every bad trade, but I don't want to hear a bunch of excuses. I would've had a lot more respect for Wayne if he just kept his mouth shut. I'm not surprised at all that some of the better scouts got fed up and quit.








The impression Bob C gave the fans, after the team's slow start in April, was he wanted the losing to stop immediately, and firing Wayne and installing Jocketty would move us in the direction to correct that.


But in Cast's defense: it's worked, hasn't it? The team is a whole lot better now without Castro/Patterson. Bray improved the pen. Bruce helped the offsense. (I realize Wayne cut loose Castro, but he also had him on for most of his 2008 term. Castro should've never made the team).





So did an impetuous owner simply bull the fans in order to supplant his good friend?


Friendship had nothing to do with it. If the Reds finish under .500 in 2009-2010, Walt will be canned too.




I have no problem at all with Jocketty at the helm. I support Jocketty. It's this owner that I'm starting to have doubts over.


After Lindner, I love this owner. Finally someone that cares about winning.
Someone who would rather win than horde every prospect to keep the payroll low. Someone who is willing to pay big in the FA market. Someone with a vision beyond milking revenue sharing and screwing the fans over.
Anyone who gives John Allen the boot can't be all bad.








All of these previous GMs made plus moves as well as blunders. But there is a foundation there that Jocketty can build upon.


The problem is that Wayne did add some good talent, but he added more dead weight. His people skills and poor judgement with contracts probably were more damaging than the W-L record..





That's the question before Walt.... what additions (tweaks) is he going to make to ADD to what we already have?

To suggest that he has 2-3 years to accomplish that, when I look at what we currently possess, IMHO, boggles my mind.


I really don't envy Walt's job. He's got to make a decision on Dunn, which is a high stakes gamble. He's got to find another OF next season. He has to bolster the bullpen. Ideally, he needs to find a C and SS as well, and another bat somewhere would be nice.

He's not coming in to a bare cupboard, but he's got holes to fill.

REDREAD
06-03-2008, 10:18 PM
Nope. Mettling owner who's stuck in the past and an overall organization lacking in forward thinking. It's not about a single move, or even a handful of moves. It's about overall organizational culture. There's few things I dislike more than old and stale thinking from people who don't want to bring themselves into the modern day. that's my perception of Castellini. And I've always been a fan of Jocketty, but I do have concerns about the reasons behind his ouster in St. Louis.

Can you be a little more specific? Other than firing Wayne, what has Cast done to make you think that the organization is not forward thinking?

Wasn't approving money for Cordero, Harang, Phillips, and Arroyo forward thinking? I mean, there's no chance in Hades that Lindner/Allen approve any of those contracts.

Cast also gave Wayne a lot of money to fill holes. Sadly, Wayne spent it largely on dreck.

IMO, bringing in Walt is a sign of forward thinking. Wayne got his chance and blew it. So Walt brings in a proven commodity instead of another assistant GM that needs on the job training.

Spring~Fields
06-04-2008, 12:57 AM
Votto is older, been in the system longer, and wasn't recovering from an injury either. ;)

It's a numbers game. Patterson had a heck of an ST. No one can predict the future as to what Patt's performance was going to be the first two months of the season. Yes, they can make some sort of "educated" guess; but IMO it simply bought Bruce some time to get himself together physically and mentally, take some pressure off, and he was brought up at the right time.

As good as Bruce is, this kid is not the savior of the '08 season. So lets not put too much pressure on this 21 yr old. ;)

Bruce appears to be able to handle the pressure just fine, it is Patterson that could not handle the pressure, it's a numbers game, and those numbers don't lie. Patterson April OBP .292, May OBP .180 :ughmamoru

All that company/Baker line about Bruce was a gimmick by Baker to get Patterson here, Baker is always going on about a burner, speed in CF and at leadoff, only problem is that Bakers man can't hit to get to first base to steal. Baker tried the same thing in Chicago with Patterson, Baker, I should say the GM of Chicago then, even went so far as sending him down to AAA there also and then brought him back to leadoff. Mercker, Bako, Hairston, Patterson, the Baker boys, ;) one is on the 60 day DL, the other is in CF in AAA awaiting his return, the catcher has come back to earth, fortunately Hairston is still hanging on.

Bruce rebuffed that Baker claim of his injury, as if it was nothing, and it turned out that it was, nothing, while Baker was going on about Bruce having a history of leg injuries, which Bruce indicated it wasn't true.

Baker said that CF was a lot of running for one with a history of leg problems, curiously though he has had Freel in CF, one who has had leg injuries, and tonight Freel goes down with a leg injury, while Bruce was in RF. Bruce is a CF not RF. Hopefully Jocketty will put an end to the nonsense.

Jay Bruce is older than his years, and was the right man for the job from day one.

GAC
06-04-2008, 09:12 PM
I can only speak for myself, but Wayne had 2+ seasons to show Cast that the team was improving. Instead, the W-L record got worse.....The problem is that Wayne did add some good talent, but he added more dead weight. His people skills and poor judgement with contracts probably were more damaging than the W-L record.


But if you're trying to restock a farm system, acquire/develop young players, which involves playing the "patience game" waiting for them to show they are ready, is the W-L record the best indicator while trying to accomplish that end?

Yes, Wayne made some blunders and bad deals. But I have always said that the reason why players like Castro, Conine, Stanton, Clayton, Mc Cracken, and a host of others, were on this team was not because Wayne felt they were players to be built around, but that they were here to buy us time to try and accomplish the other. They were, for the most part, low-risk, low cost players. And No, I didn't care for some of those player; but I understood what he was trying to accomplish. This team, IMHO, wasn't going to WIN NOW with what we were trying to accomplish.

That's my beef with this owner.

He also had to deal with the bad LTCs that he inherited, and that were burdensome on this payroll (Milton, Jr).

If Bob C wanted this team turned around within those 2 years then Bob C had to realize that it also takes MONEY to go into that market and acquire those quality players to fill those needs. Yes the GM is accountable; but so is the owner IMO. It's his money.


But in Cast's defense: it's worked, hasn't it? The team is a whole lot better now without Castro/Patterson.

What's worked? The team is now, all of a sudden, a whole lot better simply because Castro and Patterson are gone? [note: Patt is back also]

You barometer of using W-L record doesn't show that. We're still struggling get to .500 and fighting with Pitt for last place in the division. We have a terrible road record. This offense is still struggling to score runs (10th out of 16 teams).


Bray improved the pen.

Wait a minute! A year ago many on here were saying this guy was a wash and another example of a bad Krivsky acquisition.


Bruce helped the offense.

Yes he has.

But I don't see how you can use Bray and Bruce as examples in defense of Bob C's comment on the losing stops or how great of a job Jocketty is now doing. It hasn't. This is still, for the most part, WK's assembled team out there. If they were really playing bad then everyone on here would be reminding everyone of that fact. But because they somehow are seeing some sort of "spark" or indication that things might be turning around simply because some of our key players (like Dunn) are playing much better, it's now all because Jocketty has made a couple moves with players that any GM most likely would have made (like calling up Bruce, or recalling pitchers like Bray and Majik). I simply laugh at that notion.


Jocketty hasn't done jack yet. And I don't say that out of any bitterness or remorse because Krivsky's gone either.


Friendship had nothing to do with it. If the Reds finish under .500 in 2009-2010, Walt will be canned too.

Bob has said that he and Walt have a "gentleman's" agreement through 2011.

But as far as I'm concerned, Walt has inherited a team with a firmer foundation then what WK inherited. Yes, there are some "holes" to fill. But in no way should Walt be given 2-3 years to somehow fill those simply because he's Walt Jocketty. As I stated prior.... once the trading deadline gets here, and thereafter, the clock is ticking.

It's what he does to build on (complement) what we already have.


After Lindner, I love this owner. Finally someone that cares about winning.

I'd love any owner after Lindner.

But I could care less about someone who, on occasion, gets before a camera and "mouths" how much he CARES about winning and hates to lose. He's had 2+ years too. Actions speak louder then words IMO.

Many showed frustration and impatience with WK, yet not the guy who interviewed and hired him. ;)



Someone who is willing to pay big in the FA market.

Other then Cordero, where has that happened? I'll wait to see what happens before I make that proclamation. If, as you state, we need an OFer, SS, Catcher, then Bob C better be ready to spend some money in FA if he doesn't want to draft/develop them.

How much money does Bob want to spend? That's the key. ;)


Someone with a vision

I'm still trying to figure out what that vision is. Again - yet to be determined. When I look at what this organization had to do to restore this franchise for longterm success, and I was not a WIN NOW kind-of-guy, I think Krivsky saw that and was working towards that end via young players/farm system.

And here in '08 we're getting to see some of those young players contribute. Kids like Phillips, Keppinger, Votto, Volquez, Cueto, Bruce. And there may be more in the system. But it takes some level of patience.

GAC
06-04-2008, 09:22 PM
Bruce appears to be able to handle the pressure just fine, it is Patterson that could not handle the pressure, it's a numbers game, and those numbers don't lie. Patterson April OBP .292, May OBP .180 :ughmamoru

I was referring to his ST performance, Bruce's struggles in ST, and the fact (and yes it is true) that Bruce did strain his quad in a game vs Toronto. All those weighed on why Bruce was sent back down and why Patt came north.

At that time it was the right decision.


Bruce rebuffed that Baker claim of his injury, as if it was nothing

Which I would expect a young, anxious rookie, direly wanting to make the team, to say. Remember how Homer tried to hide his injury for fear of being sent down? ;)


Jay Bruce is older than his years, and was the right man for the job from day one.

Ah, the reliable "he's older then his years" reasoning. ;)

We'll respectfully disagree. How many wins do you think he would have provided us during those first two months of the season? Worth the risk?

And you're talking to a guy who can't stand Baker; but I'm not going to rail on the guy when I think he (and WK) may have made the right decision coming out of ST.

GAC
06-04-2008, 09:29 PM
Can you be a little more specific? Other than firing Wayne, what has Cast done to make you think that the organization is not forward thinking?

Wasn't approving money for Cordero, Harang, Phillips, and Arroyo forward thinking? I mean, there's no chance in Hades that Lindner/Allen approve any of those contracts.

Wayne gets no credit at all in those decisions? Who found players like Arroyo and Phillips to begin with?

And Lindner forked out his share of money. Plenty of it for sure. It was just that some of it was bad.