Freel to the DL; Patterson recalled

[BRM]

Per team press notes...

[cumberlandreds]

Not a surprise at all. I can stand Patterson playing some CF as long as doesn't bat any higher than 7th.

[Cyclone792]

The happy days of Patterson being gone sure didn't last long.

I blame Bob Boone.

[flyer85]

He's Baaaack.

I expect to see him, once again, making boatloads of outs at the top of the order.

[BRM]

He's Baaaack.

I expect to see him, once again, making boatloads of outs at the top of the order.

I expect Corey to be in CF hitting leadoff tonight if Junior is still ailing.

[flyer85]

I expect Corey to be in CF hitting leadoff tonight if Junior is still ailing.
I guess you can't teach an ol' dog new tricks.

[Joseph]

Maybe he'll have learned a little seeing how well Hairston has hit up there.....we can hope right?

[BRM]

Maybe he'll have learned a little seeing how well Hairston has hit up there.....we can hope right?

That just means Patterson will hit second instead of first.

[Cyclone792]

He's Baaaack.

I expect to see him, once again, making boatloads of outs at the top of the order.

My hope is that Hairston is moved to center and Janish plays shortstop. CF Hairston/SS Janish is a better defensive combo than CF Patterson/SS Hairston. Plus the Hairston/Janish combo keeps Patterson out of the lineup (and away from the top of the order).

But I doubt that'll happen.

[Matt700wlw]

He better not play over Bruce. EVER.

[flyer85]

My hope is that Hairston is moved to center and Janish plays shortstop. CF Hairston/SS Janish is a better defensive combo than CF Patterson/SS Hairston. Plus the Hairston/Janish combo keeps Patterson out of the lineup (and away from the top of the order).

But I doubt that'll happen.I would agree but if it happens I'll be :shocked:

[RedsManRick]

I agree Cyclone, but I'd be quite surprised to see it happen.

[LoganBuck]

Fear leads to sadness..............

I would rather see Jim Edmunds brought in.

I JUST WROTE THAT! That just happened.

[AmarilloRed]

6 for 17 in Louisville in 4 games at Louisville. Let's hope he learned how to hit while he was down there.

[Will M]

i looked at the AAA/AA rosters for position players who could be called up and found pretty much no one

agree that Janish at SS & Hairston in CF is best. IMO this is best for the Reds with a 'healthy' Jr.
This is a much better defensive alignment than Hairston at SS and Jr in RF.
Hairston could be a mirage but he is playing great and has patience in the leadoff spot.

[rotnoid]

Hairston could be a mirage but he is playing great and has patience in the leadoff spot.

That's true, and we need to ride that train until it starts to lose smoke. That seems to me to be one of Dusty's drawbacks watching from afar. He sticks with guys that are cold, and doesn't go with the hot hand as often as I'd like. Hairston at the top right now is lights out. Should stay there as long as he's hitting.

I'd much rather have a bunch of tough choices ahead than be sitting around waiting for the easy ones to be available.

[Puffy]

i looked at the AAA/AA rosters for position players who could be called up and found pretty much no one

agree that Janish at SS & Hairston in CF is best. IMO this is best for the Reds with a 'healthy' Jr.
This is a much better defensive alignment than Hairston at SS and Jr in RF.
Hairston could be a mirage but he is playing great and has patience in the leadoff spot.

In the last 8 games (since Bruce has been brought up) the Reds are 5-3. 5-0 when Junior plays and 0-3 when Junior has sat.

But keep posting in every single one of your posts how the Reds will be better off with a "healthy" Junior on the bench.

[KronoRed]

Back in the top spot creating outs.

ALLRIGHT!

[NC Reds]

Patterson should never start. Period.

[MrCinatit]

I have no problem with Corey being up here as a defensive replacement near the end of the game.

Unfortunately, I don't think Dusty thinks the same way. Most likely (and I could be wrong), but he thinks his rightful centerfielder and leadoff hitter is back up with the club.

[Highlifeman21]

My hope is that Hairston is moved to center and Janish plays shortstop. CF Hairston/SS Janish is a better defensive combo than CF Patterson/SS Hairston. Plus the Hairston/Janish combo keeps Patterson out of the lineup (and away from the top of the order).

But I doubt that'll happen.

So why don't we just go with Patterson in CF and Janish @ SS?

[wolfboy]

Not a surprise at all. I can stand Patterson playing some CF as long as doesn't bat any higher than 7th.

I'd be okay with this too. The problem is, Dusty just can't resist. It's like taking someone in rehab to a bar and ordering a round of drinks.

[Cyclone792]

So why don't we just go with Patterson in CF and Janish @ SS?

There's no good reason for Patterson to ever be in the lineup.

Maybe as a defensive replacement once you're up by 10 runs. Maybe. Then again, maybe we should push that up to 15 runs.

[Kc61]

I have no problem with Corey being up here as a defensive replacement near the end of the game.

Unfortunately, I don't think Dusty thinks the same way. Most likely (and I could be wrong), but he thinks his rightful centerfielder and leadoff hitter is back up with the club.


So let's assume Griffey, Dunn and Bruce are all healthy.

You really believe that Dusty will sit one to make room for Patterson?

What basis is there to believe that Dusty prefers Patterson over the three starters including the new guy, Bruce?

[OnBaseMachine]

A little later, the Reds added this: In addition to the Freel and Patterson transactions, today was also outrighted to Louisville OF Drew T. Anderson.

That opens a spot for another outfielder, I would assume.

FSN Ohio: Last night’s 10.2 rating on FSN Ohio was its highest of the season and fifth-highest overall since 1998.

http://beta.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a15e69b61-5270-457a-9174-d3eb9294075c&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

[AmarilloRed]

From Rotoworld:


Reds placed INF/OF Ryan Freel on the 15-day disabled list with a strained right hamstring.
Freel injured himself coming out of the box on Tuesday night, and is in Cincinnati on Wednesday to get an MRI. That he felt a pop indicates that he could be looking at an extended absence.

I am not sure how long the extended absence means. We could be looking longer than 15 days for Freel to be out of the lineup.


It is also unlikely Patterson will take AB's from Bruce:


Reds recalled OF Corey Patterson from Triple-A Louisville.
He's baaack! With Ryan Freel headed to the disabled list and Ken Griffey Jr. also hurting, the team needed depth in the outfield. Patterson won't take at-bats from Jay Bruce, but if Griffey continues to miss time, Bruce could slide over to right and Patterson might get a few games in center. The team could also use Paul Janish at short and stick Jerry Hairston in center.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playernews.aspx?sport=MLB&filter_teams=CIN

[11larkin11]

A little later, the Reds added this: In addition to the Freel and Patterson transactions, today was also outrighted to Louisville OF Drew T. Anderson.

That opens a spot for another outfielder, I would assume.

FSN Ohio: Last night’s 10.2 rating on FSN Ohio was its highest of the season and fifth-highest overall since 1998.

http://beta.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a15e69b61-5270-457a-9174-d3eb9294075c&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Looks like Herrerra has more fans than we thought.

[Cyclone792]

A little later, the Reds added this: In addition to the Freel and Patterson transactions, today was also outrighted to Louisville OF Drew T. Anderson.

That opens a spot for another outfielder, I would assume.

FSN Ohio: Last night’s 10.2 rating on FSN Ohio was its highest of the season and fifth-highest overall since 1998.

Maybe I'm missing something because I'm tired and didn't get much sleep last night.

Today's our starting catcher! And tomorrow's pitching, right? All we've got is a couple of days on the team.

[LoganBuck]

They might need a spot on the 40 man to sign a certain draft pick quickly. Just speculating.

[OnBaseMachine]

They might need a spot on the 40 man to sign a certain draft pick quickly. Just speculating.

I was thinking the same thing. Rumors were swirling that Aaron Crow was looking for a major league contract...

[redsrule2500]

sad day!

[Chip R]

They might need a spot on the 40 man to sign a certain draft pick quickly. Just speculating.


That turned out pretty well the last times the Reds tried doing that.

[Far East]

Where's Norris Hopper when you need him?

Not nearly as versatile as Freel, but he has taken infield practice ('07, 2B) and he is another RH bat.

[REDREAD]

There's no good reason for Patterson to ever be in the lineup.
.

I don't know. It looks like the choice now is Patterson or Janish until Jr mends. Not necessarily a no brainer.. Janish is an out machine as well.
Patterson is clearly a better defender than Hairston in CF.

[Spring~Fields]

In the last 8 games (since Bruce has been brought up) the Reds are 5-3. 5-0 when Junior plays and 0-3 when Junior has sat.
I thought that I noticed that Jay's best nights were most remarkable with Junior batting behind him to and more normal with Phillips behind him.


But keep posting in every single one of your posts how the Reds will be better off with a "healthy" Junior on the bench.

I would only rest him against left handed pitchers, and that would not be in stone. On those days, Votto and Dunn would be moved up along with Phillips to take advantage of the results that they get against LH vs. Griffey.

[Degenerate39]

It was fun while it lasted. Freel has looked pretty Pattersonesque his last few starts though. Let's just hope Griffey's knee is feeling good and he can start again.

[Big Klu]

I don't know. It looks like the choice now is Patterson or Janish until Jr mends. Not necessarily a no brainer.. Janish is an out machine as well.
Patterson is clearly a better defender than Hairston in CF.

In that case, I figure Patterson and Janish will platoon, with Hairston floating between SS and CF.

[Matt700wlw]

Patterson is playing tonight, batting second, behind Hairston, and playing CF....Griffey is STILL out.

I believe the rest of the lineup is the same as yesterday

[BRM]

Patterson is playing tonight, batting second, behind Hairston, and playing CF....Griffey is STILL out.

I believe the rest of the lineup is the same as yesterday

Shocking.

[CTA513]

Patterson is playing tonight, batting second, behind Hairston, and playing CF....Griffey is STILL out.

I believe the rest of the lineup is the same as yesterday

:roll:

[Matt700wlw]

I know. Thankfully I was seated when I read that.

[Spring~Fields]

Fear leads to sadness..............

I would rather see Jim Edmunds brought in.

I JUST WROTE THAT! That just happened.

An old script becomes an old play, an old play becomes the old movie of the week, I have seen the Patterson reruns and it ends the same way each time. I cannot believe that Baker is doing what he did in Chicago with this team again, and again. Then on top of that Baker is written and described to be frustrated in the Cincy papers, imagine that.

Alternative you ask?
Bruce certainly could play center, Hairston in right, and Janish at SS, while Patterson sit’s the bench waiting for the late inning replacement role. Will it happen? If patterns of human behavior or historical past have any merit, it will be a cold day in November before we see another option.

Patterson - leading off playing CF, how does burner, speed for defensive efficiency equate to an offensive player batting leadoff, and one that doesn’t get on base at a high percentage of time, aren’t offense and defense two different things ?
Hairston - batting second playing SS, no other qualification required.
Bruce protecting Patterson and Hairston
Phillips - weak cleanup against right hander’s, allows pitchers to pitch around Bruce to face DP Phillips
Dunn with Encarncion behind him allows the pitchers to pitch around Dunn
Encarncion - Which Encarncion will be batting today ?
Votto - nothing to fear behind Votto, swing away Joey, hope that you can snag one, while your numbers drop.
Bako/Ross

Patterson last three years 2005-2007 .254 .291 .393 .684
By batting order 2005-2007 :
Batting #1 .212 .256 .338 .594
Batting #2 .260 .286 .386 .672
Batting #3 .355 .355 .581 .936
Batting #5 .333 .333 .333 .666
Batting #6 .303 .335 .426 .761
Batting #7 .272 .320 .475 .795
Batting #8 .200 .253 .302 .555
Batting #9 .248 .271 .360 .631

This year .200 .240 .352 .592

Guess who is not a leadoff batter and guess who is a number 6 or 7 batter.

Dog gone you Dusty, this edit is on you.
Okay guess who is not a number two batter and might be a number 6 or 7 batter.

[OnBaseMachine]

Corey Patterson second ahead of Jay Bruce. Amazing.

Griffey got hurt at the worst time possible. He has killed Kendrick, Eaton, and Myers in his career. With his bat in the lineup the last two nights against those guys who knows how the series may have played out. The Reds might be up 2-0 right now instead of down 0-2.

[Spring~Fields]

Patterson is playing tonight, batting second, behind Hairston, and playing CF....Griffey is STILL out.

I believe the rest of the lineup is the same as yesterday

You posted that too soon, discounting and undermining my crystal ball. :runawaycr

[BRM]

Corey Patterson second ahead of Jay Bruce. Amazing.


Corey hits second while Dunn and Votto hit fifth and sixth. Genius.

[Spring~Fields]

I don't know. It looks like the choice now is Patterson or Janish until Jr mends. Not necessarily a no brainer.. Janish is an out machine as well.Patterson is clearly a better defender than Hairston in CF.

That is what we end up saying when they don't play, ask Hatteberg, I even read once where Dusty noted that it messes up a batters timing when they don't play or get enough at bats I should say.

[red-in-la]

Maybe we could fix the whole thing by trading a couple of minor leaguers to Texas for that guy named Hamilton.....:p:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Spring~Fields]

Maybe we could fix the whole thing by trading a couple of minor leaguers to Texas for that guy named Hamilton.....:p:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Baker would make Hamilton and Bruce sit while waiting to platoon in RF when Griffey gets a day off. Patterson would play CF

[RedsManRick]

I don't know. It looks like the choice now is Patterson or Janish until Jr mends. Not necessarily a no brainer.. Janish is an out machine as well.
Patterson is clearly a better defender than Hairston in CF.

So let's assume Patterson and Janish are equal offensively:

Hairston SS, Patterson CF
Janish SS, Hairston CF

What's the better defensive alignment? I'd have to go with the latter. Janish is a much bigger improvement over Hairston at SS than Patterson is over Hairston in CF.

[Degenerate39]

So let's assume Patterson and Janish are equal offensively:

Hairston SS, Patterson CF
Janish SS, Hairston CF

What's the better defensive alignment? I'd have to go with the latter. Janish is a much bigger improvement over Hairston at SS than Patterson is over Hairston in CF.

Janish SS, Patterson CF is the better defensive alignment but horrible offensive alignment. Personally I'd go with Janish SS and Hairston in CF.

[Will M]

In the last 8 games (since Bruce has been brought up) the Reds are 5-3. 5-0 when Junior plays and 0-3 when Junior has sat.

But keep posting in every single one of your posts how the Reds will be better off with a "healthy" Junior on the bench.

I will. Griffey is a not a good player. He is terrible defensively. Just terrible.
He does not belong in the field.
Offensively he ain't good either. In 64 at bats vs LHP his OPS is .581, yep that is .581 .
vs RHP he is at .817. this is at least respectable but likely below average for a corner outfielder/DH.
IMO his role is a DH vs RHP. Or a pinch hitter vs RHP.

what he or the Reds have done in 8 games is statistically insignificant.

[Spring~Fields]

Offensively he ain't good either. In 64 at bats vs LHP his OPS is .581, yep that is .581 .
IMO his role is a DH vs RHP. Or a pinch hitter vs RHP.

what he or the Reds have done in 8 games is statistically insignificant.

Offensively Patterson is worse than Griffey.

Looking beyond 8 games:

Season Patterson .200 .240 .352 .592 Season Griffey .255 .346 .397 .743


Patterson vs LH .160 .192 .160 .352
Patterson vs RH .208 .250 .392 .642
Season Patterson .200 .240 .352 .592

Griffey vs. LH .188 .284 .297 .581
Griffey vs. RH .286 .370 .443 .813
Season Griffey .255 .346 .397 .743

More important than us, I wonder how the rest of the team feels about Patterson being back ? especially considering that they are professionals who have experienced Pattersons contribution to the team.

[REDREAD]

Corey hits second while Dunn and Votto hit fifth and sixth. Genius.

Well, at least Patterson isn't hitting leadoff. Dusty is slowly moving him down :lol:

[REDREAD]

That is what we end up saying when they don't play, ask Hatteberg, I even read once where Dusty noted that it messes up a batters timing when they don't play or get enough at bats I should say.


But when you look at Janish's minor league numbers, there's no reason to believe he will be even an average hitter at the ML level.

Much like Patterson's career numbers are used against him, why shouldn't Janish's weak minor league hitting numbers be used against him?

If it was me, I'd share time with Janish/Patterson in the empty spot. Go ahead and keep riding Harriston until he cools off. Hopefully Jr is healthy by then.

My point was that it's not a no brainer to start Janish ahead of Patterson.
IMO, Janish doesn't project to be a future starting player, so there's no need to be extra generous about giving him playing time.

[Will M]

Offensively Patterson is worse than Griffey.

Looking beyond 8 games:

Season Patterson .200 .240 .352 .592 Season Griffey .255 .346 .397 .743


Patterson vs LH .160 .192 .160 .352
Patterson vs RH .208 .250 .392 .642
Season Patterson .200 .240 .352 .592

Griffey vs. LH .188 .284 .297 .581
Griffey vs. RH .286 .370 .443 .813
Season Griffey .255 .346 .397 .743

More important than us, I wonder how the rest of the team feels about Patterson being back ? especially considering that they are professionals who have experienced Pattersons contribution to the team.

1. i didn't claim patterson was better than griffey. both are not getting it done.

2. i think hairston in CF with janish at SS is best for the reds for now.
griffey belongs in the AL.
if patterson can't hit he is a 5th outfielder/pinch runner/defensive replacement

3. the reds are really hurting now with kep, gonzo & freel out along with the alreadyly constructed poor bench

[flyer85]

it was too good to last. Dusty just can't help himself.

In this case, speed kills.

[REDREAD]

So let's assume Patterson and Janish are equal offensively:


Don't think that's a fair assumption. I think the safer bet is that Patterson will hit better than Janish, or at least slug better to offset the relatively poor OBP. Patterson carried the team in the first week of the season. Janish is not capable of doing that.

Sure, I remember Janish's heroic hit, but if you play the odds Patterson is a much better bet offensively from here on out..






Hairston SS, Patterson CF
Janish SS, Hairston CF

What's the better defensive alignment? I'd have to go with the latter. Janish is a much bigger improvement over Hairston at SS than Patterson is over Hairston in CF.

IMO, the best lineup might be to sit Hairston when he cools down. He's not going to hit .330 all season.

[RedsManRick]

I agree RR, Patterson is likely to outhit Janish. I just didn't want to open that can of worms. If for no other reason than making it clearly to Dusty that Patterson shouldn't be starting, I'd want a Janish/Hairston combo. I can't trust Dusty to start Patterson for only the specific current circumstance.

The bluntness with which he's applied tactical decisions has been frightening.

[Spring~Fields]

1. i didn't claim patterson was better than griffey. both are not getting it done.

2. i think hairston in CF with janish at SS is best for the reds for now.
griffey belongs in the AL.
if patterson can't hit he is a 5th outfielder/pinch runner/defensive replacement

3. the reds are really hurting now with kep, gonzo & freel out along with the alreadyly constructed poor bench

I can grasp what you are writing now. We probably don't want either one of them on the team, let alone in the lineup. I empathize with the fans on these two, as the fans are the ones getting the short straw on them. The players play and draw a check, the team sells tickets and profits, the fans, well, the short straw of disappointment with those two.

[Spring~Fields]

But when you look at Janish's minor league numbers, there's no reason to believe he will be even an average hitter at the ML level.

Much like Patterson's career numbers are used against him, why shouldn't Janish's weak minor league hitting numbers be used against him?



Because I remember that you did not use Jay Bruce's minor league numbers in his favor in arguments for Bruce over Patterson. You felt that the Baker line was correct and that Patterson was the better option over Bruce. When Patterson was being used by Baker and blocking Bruce the center fielder from coming up while he was respecting Griffey and loving Patterson. Janish the shortstop is more valuable to the Reds pitching than the no run support centerfielding Patterson. Also Janish in the limited time that he played did have a key hit or two, how do we know that he might have continued if given playing time.

I also know that you need to cover for Dusty Baker to continue to support your position as the anti-Krivsky, otherwise Dusty would be getting a percentage of what you are implying and that I am infering is "all" Krivsky's fault, while Dusty is snow white.

[Reds Fanatic]

Here is some more on Freel's injury, Patterson and Junior's status from Fay's blog:


--Ryan Freel has a partial tear of the distal hamstring. He'll be out at least couple of weeks. "It didn't look real good," Dusty Baker said. "It's not as serious as it could have been."

--Baker said Ken Griffey Jr. will probably play in tomorrow's game. He's bothered by a sore left knee.

"With the weather conditions, I figured the day game would be better than tonight's game," Baker said.

Griffey ran on the field Wednesday and looked good.

"It's stopping and starting and cutting," Baker said.

--Baker on Corey Patterson: "We wanted him to stay (in Triple-A) a little longer," Baker said, "to work on his stroke and get his stroke. But when analyze the situation -- with Junior having soreness and history off leg problems, with us taking (Adam) Dunn out for defensive reasons, plus the lack of speed, Freel being gone, us being stronger with infielders than outfielders -- it pointed to Corey. I'm going to encourage him to start his season over."

Baker said he thought about starting Paul Janish at short and Jerry Hairston Jr. in center.

"Yeah, I thought about it," Baker said. "I mean but Corey gives me the speed I need He gives me the same thing I needed before -- speed, defense and this little ballpark here he can hit the ball out the ball park."

[Razor Shines]

I will. Griffey is a not a good player. He is terrible defensively. Just terrible.
He does not belong in the field.
Offensively he ain't good either. In 64 at bats vs LHP his OPS is .581, yep that is .581 .
vs RHP he is at .817. this is at least respectable but likely below average for a corner outfielder/DH.
IMO his role is a DH vs RHP. Or a pinch hitter vs RHP.

what he or the Reds have done in 8 games is statistically insignificant.


There isn't much to debate about Jr's D but over the last 10 games he is OPSing .924. If that's insignificant then so is the 64 ABs you point out. I truly expect the type of offensive numbers we saw from Jr. last year. A small drop off for being a year older, but still certainly better than anything else we have. Last year (even at his advanced age) Jr. ops'd .735 against RHers. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect production near that number again this year. He's started slowly, so what. Over the last couple weeks he's given us reason to believe that he'll rebound and I think as the weather gets warmer he'll start hitting better.

I'm not saying that Jr is a great option at this point in his career but if the choice is between Bruce in CF/Jr. in RF, Patterson in CF/Bruce in RF or Hairston in CF/Janish at SS then I am saying that having a healthy Jr. in the line up is what is best for the team.

[Spring~Fields]

--Baker on Corey Patterson: "We wanted him to stay (in Triple-A) a little longer," Baker said, "to work on his stroke and get his stroke. But when analyze the situation -- with Junior having soreness and history off leg problems, with us taking (Adam) Dunn out for defensive reasons, plus the lack of speed, Freel being gone, us being stronger with infielders than outfielders -- it pointed to Corey. I'm going to encourage him to start his season over."
Baker said he thought about starting Paul Janish at short and Jerry Hairston Jr. in center.

"Yeah, I thought about it," Baker said. I mean but Corey gives me the speed I need He gives me the same thing I needed before -- speed, defense and this little ballpark here he can hit the ball out the ball park."

Analyze the situation ?
But Janish doesn't give Baker defense ?
Speed ?
Hit the ball out of the park, Patterson ?
I'm going to encourage him to start his season over ?
He gives me the same thing I needed before? What before Jay Bruce ?
But Patterson is going to hit the ball out of the park even though you sent him to AAA to "get his stroke" and had to call him back before he did. ?

[RedsManRick]

The "speed (he) needs". This makes me sick. Speed to do what?! To run back to the dugout faster? No, speed to fit Dusty's magical idea of how the game should play out. And Dusty, I could hit the ball out of the Philly park.

Uggh. Why must we be cursed with such idiocy from our manager? He simply doesn't understand logic. I appreciate his experience, particularly in so far as it informs his ability to manage people. But as a strategist, I wouldn't want him coach my high school team.

Just once I want the reporters to ask a poignant follow up when Dusty spews that "I need" crap.

[Matt700wlw]

Patterson has the ability to get picked off faster than most guys on the team.

Hopefully he bats in order tonight....if they play.

[Spring~Fields]

The "speed (he) needs". This makes me sick. Speed to do what?! To run back to the dugout faster? No, speed to fit Dusty's magical idea of how the game should play out. And Dusty, I could hit the ball out of the Philly park.

Uggh. Why must we be cursed with such idiocy from our manager? He simply doesn't understand logic. I appreciate his experience, particularly in so far as it informs his ability to manage people. But as a strategist, I wouldn't want him coach my high school team.

Just once I want the reporters to ask a poignant follow up when Dusty spews that "I need" crap.

I agree, I am ready to chew nails.

[GAC]

"Yeah, I thought about it," Baker said. I mean but Corey gives me the speed I need He gives me the same thing I needed before -- speed, defense and this little ballpark here he can hit the ball out the ball park."

Who in the hell hired this guy! :lol:

[SteelSD]

Analyze the situation ?
But Janish doesn't give Baker defense ?
Speed ?
Hit the ball out of the park, Patterson ?
I'm going to encourage him to start his season over ?
He gives me the same thing I needed before? What before Jay Bruce ?
But Patterson is going to hit the ball out of the park even though you sent him to AAA to "get his stroke" and had to call him back before he did. ?

Baker simply looks for reasons to justify that which didn't work before because he believes that which didn't work before should work at some point. At this point, his use of Corey Patterson this season is insanity squared.

[Caveat Emperor]

Baker simply looks for reasons to justify that which didn't work before because he believes that which didn't work before should work at some point. At this point, his use of Corey Patterson this season is insanity squared.

And Jocketty is an enabler for calling Patterson to the bigs again.

It has nothing to do with numbers -- put Chris Dickerson on this team (arguably same skill set and same numbers generated over a full season) and see how fast the pine rots underneath him -- and everything to do with personal feelings between player and manager.

Jocketty must step in and put an end to this. Now.

[Marc D]

Through the games played 6/4/08:

Patterson is now 0 for his last 21 MLB AB's.

His OBP is down to .234

He has yet to take a walk since April.


I understand Dusty isn't a stats oriented guy but good lord. :(

[Spring~Fields]

Baker simply looks for reasons to justify that which didn't work before because he believes that which didn't work before should work at some point. At this point, his use of Corey Patterson this season is insanity squared.

I agree that he uses generalizations to justify his unjustifiable actions that are not supported by solid outcomes or good results.

I think that it is his defense mechanism with the press, media and fans (as with a spin-doctor) while he goes about his business of using players that he believes in but cannot support their sustained use by statistical facts, I honestly believe that Baker would find stats as abhorrent to him because he can't use them to support his contradictions in his words vs his actions and results. I suppose that he would find them to be quite cumbersome if pressed to use them to support his erroneous philosophies or theories.

I wish that the local media would really press Baker for clear and concise answers and hold him accountable.

[Will M]

There isn't much to debate about Jr's D but over the last 10 games he is OPSing .924. If that's insignificant then so is the 64 ABs you point out. I truly expect the type of offensive numbers we saw from Jr. last year. A small drop off for being a year older, but still certainly better than anything else we have. Last year (even at his advanced age) Jr. ops'd .735 against RHers. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect production near that number again this year. He's started slowly, so what. Over the last couple weeks he's given us reason to believe that he'll rebound and I think as the weather gets warmer he'll start hitting better.

I'm not saying that Jr is a great option at this point in his career but if the choice is between Bruce in CF/Jr. in RF, Patterson in CF/Bruce in RF or Hairston in CF/Janish at SS then I am saying that having a healthy Jr. in the line up is what is best for the team.

hopefully we can agree to disagree.

i'd rather have hairston in the outfield and janish at short than Jr.
janish's defense at SS > hairston.
hairston's defense in the outfield > Jr.
so the question is: is the dropoff from Jr's offense to janish's offense worth it.
since Jr isn't getting it done at the plate this year then imo it is.
if Jr hits in the future more like he has the last 2 weeks then it is a tougher question.

kep will be back eventually which will help a lot.
even with kep i think the reds need another bat.

[KronoRed]

Jocketty must step in and put an end to this. Now.

Indeed, it's scary to think Walt is a big fan of Castro2 (Patterson)

[AmarilloRed]

Freel is hurt for 2-3 weeks, Hopper is going to be out of action for an undetermined amount of time, Griffey is banged up and you never know when he'll be back.We really are short on outfield depth right now. I have heard Griffey will be playing tomorrow, so we shouldn't see Patterson except as a pinch-hitter. I will look on the bright side: Patterson has lost his job as the starting center fielder to Bruce and he won't get it back. Patterson is on the Reds roster as a fourth outfielder; he will start when Bruce, Dunn, or Griffey is injured or need a day off.The Reds must have decided that Chris Dickerson had not made a strong enough case at the time the choice to call Patterson was made. Patterson had hit well at Louisville, but is now proving that he can not hit at the major league level again. I would definitely think about calling Dickerson up to take Patterson's place as the fourth outfielder, and either DFA'g Patterson or sending him down to AAA to finish the season. In any case, Patterson should see limited action this time around unless Griffey is out this year a significant period of time.

[MrCinatit]

Through the games played 6/4/08:
Patterson is now 0 for his last 21 MLB AB's.
His OBP is down to .234
He has yet to take a walk since April.
I understand Dusty isn't a stats oriented guy but good lord. :(


Seven more at-bats like that, and he will have his own personal little perfect game going on. Not too shabby.
I hope Griffey gets well soon.

[Cyclone792]

Patterson is hitting .161/.202/.212/.414 in 126 plate appearances now since April 10th. As I mentioned in the game thread, there are several NL teams whose entire pitching staff is hitting better than Patterson since April 10th.

[vaticanplum]

--Baker on Corey Patterson: "We wanted him to stay (in Triple-A) a little longer," Baker said, "to work on his stroke and get his stroke. But when analyze the situation -- with Junior having soreness and history off leg problems, with us taking (Adam) Dunn out for defensive reasons, plus the lack of speed, Freel being gone, us being stronger with infielders than outfielders -- it pointed to Corey. I'm going to encourage him to start his season over."

Baker said he thought about starting Paul Janish at short and Jerry Hairston Jr. in center.

"Yeah, I thought about it," Baker said. "I mean but Corey gives me the speed I need He gives me the same thing I needed before -- speed, defense and this little ballpark here he can hit the ball out the ball park."

If I were Adam Dunn, this would seal the nail in the contract coffin for me and I'd be counting the minutes to free agency. Baker's on the books for almost three more years and that makes it clear where this organization's priorities are and will remain at least until he's gone. I'm sorry to be melodramatic, but this organization is starting to make me sick.

[RedsFan75]

It was very interesting to hear how vocal Chris and George were in last nights game when Dusty didn't pinch hit for Patterson in that situation. With Romero holding Lefties to a .65 BA or what ever it was, and with Phillips on the bench it was a perfect sit to PH. BUT HE DIDN'T.

[Matt700wlw]

So if last night was the night Corey Patterson's season starts over (according to Dusty)...he's so far looking much like he did before it started over.

Sweet.

[Spring~Fields]

If I were Adam Dunn, this would seal the nail in the contract coffin for me and I'd be counting the minutes to free agency. Baker's on the books for almost three more years and that makes it clear where this organization's priorities are and will remain at least until he's gone. I'm sorry to be melodramatic, but this organization is starting to make me sick.

See curse of the Billy Goat and the ex-cub factor ;)

[Caveat Emperor]

I would definitely think about calling Dickerson up to take Patterson's place as the fourth outfielder, and either DFA'g Patterson or sending him down to AAA to finish the season.

If for absolutely no other reason than it seems this team gets better with every young player they add.

Young players, especially players like Janish and Dickerson, are often hungry to prove they can be major leaguers. I like hungry players, especially when the alternative is sub-mediocre talent playing for a bloated paycheck.

[NC Reds]

So if last night was the night Corey Patterson's season starts over (according to Dusty)...he's so far looking much like he did before it started over.

Sweet.

Today is the first day of the rest of Corey Patterson's sorry career.

[Spring~Fields]

Baker simply looks for reasons to justify that which didn't work before because he believes that which didn't work before should work at some point. At this point, his use of Corey Patterson this season is insanity squared.

05/12/2008
The following quotes appeared in articles.
“Reds manager Dusty Baker was asked if he'd consider moving Patterson down in the order until he snaps out of the funk. Hitting coach Brook Jacoby has been working with Patterson to speed up that process.

"What makes it kind of rough is I'm trying to stay away from too many left-handers in a row," Baker said. "He's going to get going. Usually guys end up where their average always is. Jacoby is working with him. We don't have a bunch of speed. We need speed, especially in close games."

[RedsManRick]

05/12/2008
The following quotes appeared in articles.
“Reds manager Dusty Baker was asked if he'd consider moving Patterson down in the order until he snaps out of the funk. Hitting coach Brook Jacoby has been working with Patterson to speed up that process.

"What makes it kind of rough is I'm trying to stay away from too many left-handers in a row," Baker said. "He's going to get going. Usually guys end up where their average always is. Jacoby is working with him. We don't have a bunch of speed. We need speed, especially in close games."

In other words, he expects Patterson to continue to suck and simply has no clue that where Corey Patterson's "average always is" is unacceptable at the top of the lineup.

If you need speed in close games, then save Patterson on the bench until such time as you need said speed.

Also, somebody needs to tell Dusty that if he wants to avoid too many lefties in a row, he has lots of other options.
- Votto at the top of the lineup
- Patterson 8th behind Dave Ross
- Paul Janish at SS, Hairston in CF
- Realizing that desigining a lineup to avoid LOOGY's scores fewer runs, making it more likely that a LOOGY plays an important role in the game (ie. he is in part creating the problem he claims to be trying to avoid)

It simply cannot be said enough, the man has no business putting together a lineup. Steel hit the nail on the head. Dusty manages to an imagined reality where all of his ingrained biases are truths and everything that shows him to be wrong is just a temporary blip.

[*BaseClogger*]

Rick, you obviously don't understand the Law of Averages as well as Dusty! :D

[RedsManRick]

Rick, you obviously don't understand the Law of Averages as well as Dusty! :D

The question should have been worded differently.

Instead of "...while he's struggling..." it should have been "...given that he's a crappy hitter...".

I really, really want some reporter to continue to press Dusty on these stupid decisions.

[WebScorpion]

Today is the first day of the rest of Corey Patterson's sorry career.
Hopefully, in AAA! :thumbup: It looks like the only way Jocketty can keep Corey out of the top of Baker's lineup is to leave him in Louisville. Hopefully, he will exercise that option at his earliest convenience. It looks like when Keppinger returns will be that time. Come ooooonnnnnn country Kepp!

[Tony Cloninger]

I do not think this says much for Walt...unless Baker pleaded with him that he needed his speed and defense.

[KronoRed]

Who in the hell hired this guy! :lol:

A guy who didn't pay much attention to what happened up in Cubland.

Thanks Bob.

[Matt700wlw]

Hopefully, in AAA! :thumbup: It looks like the only way Jocketty can keep Corey out of the top of Baker's lineup is to leave him in Louisville. Hopefully, he will exercise that option at his earliest convenience. It looks like when Keppinger returns will be that time. Come ooooonnnnnn country Kepp!

That's why they should have just flat out released him.


He's like Juan Castro...if he's there, at some point, the manager will play him. AT LEAST he has a glove though.

[REDREAD]

If I were Adam Dunn, this would seal the nail in the contract coffin for me and I'd be counting the minutes to free agency. Baker's on the books for almost three more years and that makes it clear where this organization's priorities are and will remain at least until he's gone. I'm sorry to be melodramatic, but this organization is starting to make me sick.

Patterson started one game. That's all. I think people get overly worked up about Patterson.

Not directed at you, but if people don't like the Patterson callup, who would you call up instead? Dickerson is not ML material at all.

In an ideal world, the team wouldn't be giving at bats to Hariston, Janish, or Patterson.. but those are the parts Dusty has to work with..

[REDREAD]

I do not think this says much for Walt...unless Baker pleaded with him that he needed his speed and defense.

Again, who should Walt have called up instead that would've been any better?

[Marc D]

Seven more at-bats like that, and he will have his own personal little perfect game going on. Not too shabby.
I hope Griffey gets well soon.


Well he got one step closer today and he only had to see one pitch to do it. The history of C Patts chase for 27:

C Patt's last hit came on the magical date of May 20, 2008 in LA. The historic shot was a line drive single off of Chad Billingsly in the top of the 6th. Patterson then stole second because he is fast. Understandably exhausted and emotionally drained from such a moment Patterson failed to get a hit in his final AB of the night finishing the night 1 for 4.

Flash forward to June 5th, 2008. Still obviously hung over from the euphoria of his big night in LA, Patterson has yet to return to the exclusive club of those who can actually get a hit off MLB pitching, going 0 for his last 23 AB's.

The relentless pursuit of 0 for 27 and his subsequent whirlwind tour of several minor league ballparks has also taken its toll on Patterson's most important skill, his speed. As one would expect of a man who has neither gotten a hit or taken a walk in the past 3 weeks, Patterson hasn't registered a stolen base. Yet CP has somehow managed to get caught stealing once during this chase for the ages.

Patterson will likely reach the hallowed mark of 0 for 27 this weekend in Florida or wherever he may see the next 4 pitches it will take to go 0 for 4.

[GAC]

If I were Adam Dunn, this would seal the nail in the contract coffin for me and I'd be counting the minutes to free agency. Baker's on the books for almost three more years and that makes it clear where this organization's priorities are and will remain at least until he's gone. I'm sorry to be melodramatic, but this organization is starting to make me sick.

Fully agree vp and made similar statements concerning Adam.

Dusty says he's playing Jr out of respect for who he is. But he doesn't show any respect for Adam Dunn and what he has accomplished by where he bats him in that order and what you mention above (defensive replacement).

Add to that fact that this FO has yet to make any attempts (according to Adam) to talk to him or his agent about resigning. That, IMHO, is disrespectful.

I'd walk.

[Spring~Fields]

In other words, he expects Patterson to continue to suck and simply has no clue that where Corey Patterson's "average always is" is unacceptable at the top of the lineup.

If you need speed in close games, then save Patterson on the bench until such time as you need said speed.

Also, somebody needs to tell Dusty that if he wants to avoid too many lefties in a row, he has lots of other options.
- Votto at the top of the lineup
- Patterson 8th behind Dave Ross
- Paul Janish at SS, Hairston in CF
- Realizing that desigining a lineup to avoid LOOGY's scores fewer runs, making it more likely that a LOOGY plays an important role in the game (ie. he is in part creating the problem he claims to be trying to avoid)

It simply cannot be said enough, the man has no business putting together a lineup. Steel hit the nail on the head. Dusty manages to an imagined reality where all of his ingrained biases are truths and everything that shows him to be wrong is just a temporary blip.

:clap::clap::clap:

[GAC]

Patterson started one game. That's all. I think people get overly worked up about Patterson.

Not directed at you, but if people don't like the Patterson callup, who would you call up instead? Dickerson is not ML material at all.

In an ideal world, the team wouldn't be giving at bats to Hariston, Janish, or Patterson.. but those are the parts Dusty has to work with..

Jerry Hairston's number this year in 36 games....

.315 BA .364 OB% .444 SLG% .808 OPS

leading off.....

.378 BA .451 OB% .467 SLG% .918 OPS

Yes, Hairston's playing because of injury to Kepp. But at least he's performing admirably and making the most of the situation. Other then that he's a bench/utility player. Patterson shouldn't even qualify for that.

What is it going to take for Dusty Baker (and Walt) to see that Patterson shouldn't be playing regardless if there are injuries to other guys? He failed in Chicago and Baltimore, and he's not going, as Dusty insinuates, to find a stroke he's never had. The guy couldn't hit the floor if he fell out of bed.

You state that a guy like Castro should never be on any roster. Especially the Reds. Yet you have no problem with a Patterson, or somehow try to defend that call up because we have injuries and there is nothing else we can do?

Yes you try something else. Put Janish at SS and Hairston in the OF .

And you then bat guys like young kids like Janish down in the order, not in key lead off spots.

Anything! Please! Anything!

But the Corey Patterson debacle needs to stop.

I'm sorry - but this offense may have it's "holes"; but a Dusty Baker, and his lineup construction, contributes to it's erratic performance IMO when he bats guys like Patt 2nd, and refuses to move a Jr down in the order (out of respect).

Walt needs to release Patterson, and get him as far away from Baker as possible.

Like a band-aid.... "RIP IT RIGHT OFF"! ;)

[Screwball]

Well he got one step closer today and he only had to see one pitch to do it. The history of C Patts chase for 27:

C Patt's last hit came on the magical date of May 20, 2008 in LA. The historic shot was a line drive single off of Chad Billingsly in the top of the 6th. Patterson then stole second because he is fast. Understandably exhausted and emotionally drained from such a moment Patterson failed to get a hit in his final AB of the night finishing the night 1 for 4.

Flash forward to June 5th, 2008. Still obviously hung over from the euphoria of his big night in LA, Patterson has yet to return to the exclusive club of those who can actually get a hit off MLB pitching, going 0 for his last 23 AB's.

The relentless pursuit of 0 for 27 and his subsequent whirlwind tour of several minor league ballparks has also taken its toll on Patterson's most important skill, his speed. As one would expect of a man who has neither gotten a hit or taken a walk in the past 3 weeks, Patterson hasn't registered a stolen base. Yet CP has somehow managed to get caught stealing once during this chase for the ages.

Patterson will likely reach the hallowed mark of 0 for 27 this weekend in Florida or wherever he may see the next 4 pitches it will take to go 0 for 4.

:laugh:

Marc D: 1, Corey Patterson: 0.

[Far East]

...But he doesn't show any respect for Adam Dunn and what he has accomplished by where he bats him in that order and what you mention above (defensive replacement).
The defensive replacement double switching doesn't bother me except when the score is too close or its done too early in the game.

Speaking of double switches, Encarnacion looked none too happy in the dugout today when Dusty sat Edwin late in the game, and simultaneously inserted Andy Phillips at 3B and a relief pitcher, flip-flopping their spots in the batting order. It looked like the right managerial move to me; E.E. had batted in the top of the inning.

[AmarilloRed]

Again, who should Walt have called up instead that would've been any better?

Patterson: .193 BA/.233 OBP in Cincinnati in 150 AB
Dickerson: .266 BA/ .355 OBP in Louisville in 158 AB

Dickerson would be a better fourth outfielder than Patterson, even with his strikeouts.

[vaticanplum]

Patterson started one game. That's all. I think people get overly worked up about Patterson.

Not directed at you, but if people don't like the Patterson callup, who would you call up instead? Dickerson is not ML material at all.

In an ideal world, the team wouldn't be giving at bats to Hariston, Janish, or Patterson.. but those are the parts Dusty has to work with..

I was referring specifically to Baker's attitudes reflected in his words that I quoted, not to the callup. I actually like Patterson as a defensive player and think he's a valuable part of this team when he's used correctly (which he has yet to be).

You'll rarely find me arguing parts of a team, particularly a part that has a tangible upside like Patterson (and Janish and Hairston for that matter). 40/25 spots are -- or should be -- enough for a wide variey of talents. I have serious problems with the way those parts are being used and, more to the point, not being used.

[REDREAD]

Jerry Hairston's number this year in 36 games....

.315 BA .364 OB% .444 SLG% .808 OPS

leading off.....

.378 BA .451 OB% .467 SLG% .918 OPS



But he's cooling down. I'm saying eventually, when Harriston becomes what he is, then it's debatable. Sure, keep on playing him while he's hot (although he's already began to cool down).





You state that a guy like Castro should never be on any roster. Especially the Reds. Yet you have no problem with a Patterson, or somehow try to defend that call up because we have injuries and there is nothing else we can do?


Castro could do absolutely nothing well. Patterson can field well. Patterson has power and speed which aren't elite skills, but are more than Castro could
ever dream of.




But the Corey Patterson debacle needs to stop.


He's a backup OF that got one start because Freel and Jr were hurt.. no big deal. He's back on the bench now, just like everyone wants.




Walt needs to release Patterson, and get him as far away from Baker as possible.

Like a band-aid.... "RIP IT RIGHT OFF"! ;)

If you release Patterson, you lose a defensive replacement in late innings that the Reds desperately need. You also need an OF to replace him, and there's no one in the Reds' organization to do that.. And don't say Dickerson.. he projects to be far worse than Patterson.

[REDREAD]

Patterson: .193 BA/.233 OBP in Cincinnati in 150 AB
Dickerson: .266 BA/ .355 OBP in Louisville in 158 AB

Dickerson would be a better fourth outfielder than Patterson, even with his strikeouts.


Post Patterson's AAA numbers. If you want to do a fair comparison.
Dickerson is horrible. If you hate Patterson, you will like Dickerson even less.

[Degenerate39]

Dusty what the hell do you need speed for when it's popping up or grounding out on the first dang pitch? Speed is only good when it's on base and I don't even remember the last time he's been on base. Bruce has good speed what's wrong with him there? Same thing with Phillips.

[reds44]

Patterson: .193 BA/.233 OBP in Cincinnati in 150 AB
Dickerson: .266 BA/ .355 OBP in Louisville in 158 AB

Dickerson would be a better fourth outfielder than Patterson, even with his strikeouts.
I am 100% confident that if Dickerson was called up he would out OPS Patterson while playing just as good of defense.

[KronoRed]

I am 100% confident that if Dickerson was called up he would out OPS Patterson while playing just as good of defense.

But Patterson is "proven", it's the same logic that kept Castro here over guys in AAA who would have easily outplayed him.
"he's played for so many years he's a major leaguer"

I'd like to see Dickerson up here to see what he can do, he has a chance to be on the team next year, I don't really care about his AAA numbers, Patterson is awful in the majors, why not try someone else?

[RedsManRick]

Patterson is proven. He's proven that he is not a major league starter. Dusty's proven as well. Proven that he can't see that. At least with Dickerson Dusty would be more likely to use him in a manner commensurate to his skill set.

It's not if you prove -- it's what you prove.

[GAC]

Castro could do absolutely nothing well. Patterson can field well. Patterson has power and speed which aren't elite skills, but are more than Castro could ever dream of.

I'm glad Castro is gone. But that is not really being objective and fair towards Castro by saying he could do absolutely nothing well. And I'm referring solely to his defense (glove).

And this is, IMHO, not a debate of Castro vs Patterson, even though there are vast similarities as far as they both possess no bat, yet were seen as defensive "specialists".

We're debating which of these two "limited skills" and downright crummy players deserved to be on this team?

Neither!


If you release Patterson, you lose a defensive replacement in late innings that the Reds desperately need.

That was exactly the argument utilized in defense of Castro. Castro was not a regular, consistent, starter on this squad. His AB's came primarily as a result of giving player's days off, injury, or as a late inning defensive replacement.


He's a backup OF that got one start because Freel and Jr were hurt.. no big deal. He's back on the bench now, just like everyone wants.

And that is what scares me. ;)

You're making it sound like Dusty Baker has all of a sudden wised up and will use Corey as such. He certainly hasn't wised up when it comes to batting him second in this order simply because he possesses speed.

It would make it somewhat palatable if Patterson was solely utilized as you mention above. But with two volatile OFers in Freel (now DL'd) and Jr already, after only two months of baseball, limping around and showing soreness, you're going to see far more ABs (starts) out of this guy other then simply a late inning defensive replacement. Mark my words.


If you release Patterson, you lose a defensive replacement in late innings that the Reds desperately need. You also need an OF to replace him, and there's no one in the Reds' organization to do that.. And don't say Dickerson.. he projects to be far worse than Patterson.

I've already stated I'd take Hairston in the OF and Janish at SS. I would try any combination to see us through until we get Kepp back. But the Patterson experiment has failed miserably, and Dusty Baker stubbornly refuses to see the obvious.
If nothing else then call Account Temps and ask if Bob is available! :mooner: