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View Full Version : Red Sox vs. Rays--Round 2



reds44
06-05-2008, 09:31 PM
In case you missed it, the Red Sox and Rays had a little bit of a disagreement on a Coco Crisp slide last night.

http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx?id=dffdd68e-594d-42c9-a714-1f3675400d3f

Well Coco got beaned today, and it led to this:

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200806052847841

11larkin11
06-05-2008, 09:33 PM
I love the Rays. Probably my second favorite team right now. Shut the NE media up. Wow. James Shields was inches away from Kimbo'ing Coco.

RedsManRick
06-05-2008, 09:54 PM
Shame Shields' didn't take the Nolan Ryan approach. Weak punch.

smith288
06-05-2008, 10:43 PM
Shame Shields' didn't take the Nolan Ryan approach. Weak punch.
Weak? Hardly. Crisp just missed. If he would have connected Crisp would have been toast.

MWM
06-05-2008, 10:57 PM
Just dumb. You just got beat the night before by the team you're in a heated race with, and you get your best pitcher thrown out in the second inning.

What a pansy move by Gomes, trying to pound on a guy when he's being held down by someone else.

Caveat Emperor
06-05-2008, 11:12 PM
Shame Shields' didn't take the Nolan Ryan approach. Weak punch.

Good time to break out this old ESPN video:

http://ballhype.com/video/nolan_ryan_vs_robin_ventura_1993/

MasonBuzz3
06-05-2008, 11:16 PM
MWM, I see it from the other side. IMO crisp was the pansy. There was nothing wrong with what Shields did. There was no doubt that was a bush league play by Crisp the night before. Shield did what he was supposed to do and drilled Coco, and he hit him below the waist...nothing malicious on Shields' part.
I almost see it as the Rays standing up for themselves, that they are tired of being looked over by the Sox and Yankees and they aren't going to take a bush league play by a Sox player. I don't see too much wrong with Gomes and Crawford jumping on Crisp while he was down. As a ballplayer, I'd love to have those two as teammates having my back.

MWM
06-05-2008, 11:25 PM
I almost see it as the Rays standing up for themselves, that they are tired of being looked over by the Sox and Yankees

Then go out and win the division.

The Rays are always stirring things up with Boston and NY. They've been trying to "not be overlooked" for years and what has it got them - nothing! For once they're actually in the race with a good team, and they care more about this nonsense than actually winning an important game.

This isn't the 50s any more. I don't buy the that's what he's "supposed to do" argument. You stand in there against a 90 MPH pitch and then tell him not to get upset. Look, I think Crisp is an idiot. He shouldn't have charged the mound. But running and pounding on someone who is helpless because someone else is holding him down is what's bush league.

vaticanplum
06-05-2008, 11:27 PM
MWM, I see it from the other side. IMO crisp was the pansy. There was nothing wrong with what Shields did. There was no doubt that was a bush league play by Crisp the night before. Shield did what he was supposed to do and drilled Coco, and he hit him below the waist...nothing malicious on Shields' part.
I almost see it as the Rays standing up for themselves, that they are tired of being looked over by the Sox and Yankees and they aren't going to take a bush league play by a Sox player. I don't see too much wrong with Gomes and Crawford jumping on Crisp while he was down. As a ballplayer, I'd love to have those two as teammates having my back.

This is the part of baseball I will never understand. This isn't the Jets and the Sharks here. Why does someone need to have your back in order for you to hit a baseball? This is these guys' work. I don't go into work every day leery of someone beaning me and conscious of who will have my back if it happens.

If the Rays need to "stand up for themselves" and get out of the Red Sox's and Yankees' shadow, methinks the best way for them to do it is to play better than the others. Which they've been doing just fine.

edit: MWM beat me to it.

Blitz Dorsey
06-05-2008, 11:29 PM
+1 MasonBuzz. Coco Crisp is a, um, er, female body part.

Caveat Emperor
06-05-2008, 11:57 PM
This is these guys' work. I don't go into work every day leery of someone beaning me and conscious of who will have my back if it happens.

Reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRkiouh5NEI

M2
06-06-2008, 12:26 AM
The Rays are always stirring things up with Boston and NY.

Exactly. This happens every year with the Rays against both the Sox and Yankees. And the catalyst is always the Rays doing multiple dumb things in the course of a baseball game.

Yesterday Jason Bartlett blocked 2nd base on a steal attempt by Crisp and on Crisp's next steal attempt Iwamura was standing on the base to receive the throw. Now maybe I had an odd Little League coach, who told the team never to stand on the base during a steal attempt because you could get your leg broken. But on two successive steal attempts Crisp had Tampa fielders either blocking or on the base. So, yeah, he went in hard. Iwamura should count himself lucky. Pete Rose would have taken his leg off and beaten him with it.

Yet the Rays, who apparently don't know to stand in front of the base and then sweep with the tag, get ticked off when other clubs don't take kindly to their ignorance/ineptitude (take your pick). I'm sure the Sox and Yankees act like they're royalty, but the last time I recall those two teams mixing it up was 2004. Meanwhile, they've been at with the Rays four times each since then, just like they've each been at with the Rays every year for the past decade. That's what happens when you've got to play that many games against the juvenile delinquent of MLB.

mbgrayson
06-06-2008, 12:50 AM
Exactly. This happens every year with the Rays against both the Sox and Yankees. And the catalyst is always the Rays doing multiple dumb things in the course of a baseball game.

Yesterday Jason Bartlett blocked 2nd base on a steal attempt by Crisp and on Crisp's next steal attempt Iwamura was standing on the base to receive the throw. Now maybe I had an odd Little League coach, who told the team never to stand on the base during a steal attempt because you could get your leg broken. But on two successive steal attempts Crisp had Tampa fielders either blocking or on the base. So, yeah, he went in hard. Iwamura should count himself lucky. Pete Rose would have taken his leg off and beaten him with it.

Yet the Rays, who apparently don't know to stand in front of the base and then sweep with the tag, get ticked off when other clubs don't take kindly to their ignorance/ineptitude (take your pick). I'm sure the Sox and Yankees act like they're royalty, but the last time I recall those two teams mixing it up was 2004. Meanwhile, they've been at with the Rays four times each since then, just like they've each been at with the Rays every year for the past decade. That's what happens when you've got to play that many games against the juvenile delinquent of MLB.


Do you have a video clip of the play where "Jason Bartlett blocked 2nd base on a steal attempt by Crisp" ? I haven't seen that play.

I have watched the 'Crisp sliding into Iwamura' play several times. There is no doubt that Crisp wasn't even trying to slide into the base there: he was going straight for Iwamura. The ESPN announcers correctly say it is a dirty play. To me, without seeing the Bartlett play, Crisp deserved everything he got.

Interesting note on this stuff: take a look at a new baseball book called "The Code". It discusses fights, retaliation, and the baseball code. I'm about half way through right now.

KronoRed
06-06-2008, 12:55 AM
The Rays are always stirring things up with Boston and NY. They've been trying to "not be overlooked" for years and what has it got them - nothing!
Not true, they get the 1st pick in the draft almost yearly :D

This sort of stuff was cute the first few times, but now it's so set up it's obvious the Rays are just acting like children.
"He breathed on me! BEAN HIM"..and on and on.

M2
06-06-2008, 01:04 AM
Do you have a video clip of the play where "Jason Bartlett blocked 2nd base on a steal attempt by Crisp" ? I haven't seen that play.

I have watched the 'Crisp sliding into Iwamura' play several times. There is no doubt that Crisp wasn't even trying to slide into the base there: he was going straight for Iwamura. The ESPN announcers correctly say it is a dirty play. To me, without seeing the Bartlett play, Crisp deserved everything he got.

Interesting note on this stuff: take a look at a new baseball book called "The Code". It discusses fights, retaliation, and the baseball code. I'm about half way through right now.

There's no question Iwamura's left foot is on the first base side of the bag when Crisp slides. That's the indisputable piece of the equation. If his foot isn't there (where it's not supposed to be in the first place), then it doesn't really matter how Crisp slides (which is the point). If Iwamura's foot isn't there then maybe Crisp goes in head first, as is his preference. Yet with his foot there he's endangering himself and the runner. Crisp clearly figured it was better to endanger the other guy more and went in hard. Yet he didn't go in so hard that he slid halfway to left field. In fact, Crisp keeps in contact with the bag on that slide and doesn't veer to clip the fielder (he didn't have to because Iwamura positioned himself on top of the bag).

I assume you've seen stolen bases before. Runners regularly slide over the top of the bag and wind up hanging on by a whisker on the side. That's what Crisp did, admittedly with ill intent, but the runner's allowed to go in as hard as he wants. It's the fielder who shouldn't be in the way.

I don't have a link for the Bartlett play, but it's been replayed to death in my neck of the woods on TV. He's kneeling on the first base side of the second base bag as Crisp is sliding into the base. Yet Iwamura's positioning is still bush regardless of whether you see the prior play.

CTA513
06-06-2008, 01:31 AM
Im going to guess that Gomes is the next guy to get beaned.

mbgrayson
06-06-2008, 01:37 AM
There's no question Iwamura's left foot is on the first base side of the bag when Crisp slides. That's the indisputable piece of the equation. If his foot isn't there (where it's not supposed to be in the first place), then it doesn't really matter how Crisp slides (which is the point). If Iwamura's foot isn't there then maybe Crisp goes in head first, as is his preference. Yet with his foot there he's endangering himself and the runner. Crisp clearly figured it was better to endanger the other guy more and went in hard. Yet he didn't go in so hard that he slid halfway to left field. In fact, Crisp keeps in contact with the bag on that slide and doesn't veer to clip the fielder (he didn't have to because Iwamura positioned himself on top of the bag).

I assume you've seen stolen bases before. Runners regularly slide over the top of the bag and wind up hanging on by a whisker on the side. That's what Crisp did, admittedly with ill intent, but the runner's allowed to go in as hard as he wants. It's the fielder who shouldn't be in the way.

I don't have a link for the Bartlett play, but it's been replayed to death in my neck of the woods on TV. He's kneeling on the first base side of the second base bag as Crisp is sliding into the base. Yet Iwamura's positioning is still bush regardless of whether you see the prior play.

No, this is the first stolen base I've ever seen... .I wasn't getting snarky with you, I was trying to be civil.(Actually, it isn't a stolen base: he was out....lol)

Watch what Crisp does with his arm/elbow. He goes right for Iwamura's crotch.

And any argument that he only slid feet first because he saw where Iwamura was standing is nonsense. If you slow down the replay, Crisp committed to sliding feet first 20 to 30 feet before the bag, and he was already leaning to the left to take Iwamura out.

Look, I would have no problem is Crisp simply slid directly into the bag, and Iwamura was standing on it. That simply isn't what happened.

And I'm not a partisan here: I don't care one way or the other about the Rays or the Sox. I'm neutral. Heck, even my wife couldn't understand why Crisp slid in the way he did. The only reason was payback. As the announcers (also neutral, from ESPN) said, they could understand the take out slide if there was a double play ball possibility. But it was a blown stolen base....

M2
06-06-2008, 01:56 AM
Watch what Crisp does with his arm/elbow. He goes right for Iwamura's crotch.

Which wouldn't be anywhere with reach of Crisp's elbow if Iwamura wasn't on the bag. Crisp also comes in high, but that also wouldn't be an issue if Iwamura wasn't on the bag.


And any argument that he only slid feet first because he saw where Iwamura was standing is nonsense. If you slow down the replay, Crisp committed to sliding feet first 20 to 30 feet before the bag, and he was already leaning to the left to take Iwamura out.

A) It takes less than a second to cover 20-30 feet when running at top speed.

B) Iwamura's foot is on the bag when Crisp commits to the foot first slide.

C) Upon watching it again, you're right that Crisp does veer a bit to his left, but that slide still would have never touched a fielder who was positioned correctly. Had Iwamura been in the proper position and then Crisp had tried to take him out, I'd agree the Rays had every right to be hot. The umps also would have given Crisp the heave for going after the fielder like that. Yet they didn't because Iwamura stationed himself directly in the line of fire.


Look, I would have no problem is Crisp simply slid directly into the bag, and Iwamura was standing on it. That simply isn't what happened.

The fielder is either on the bag or he's not. Iwamura is on the bag.


And I'm not a partisan here: I don't care one way or the other about the Rays or the Sox. I'm neutral. Heck, even my wife couldn't understand why Crisp slid in the way he did. The only reason was payback. As the announcers (also neutral, from ESPN) said, they could understand the take out slide if there was a double play ball possibility. But it was a blown stolen base....

It was a caught stealing and Crisp wasn't out by that much (in fact it looks like Iwamura misses him with the tag). Crisp might have been safe had he slid to the outside of the bag and stayed low, but with all the contact the ump had to assume the glove got him. That's the bonehead part of the play from Crisp's standpoint. He probably cost himself the SB.

At the same time I can see why a guy might see red when the fielders aren't giving him the bag on a SB attempt. I'm not partisan in this one either, but Crisp's job is to go into that base with every ounce of speed he's got and Iwamura's job is to make the tag without being on the bag. Crisp did his job. Iwamura didn't.

fearofpopvol1
06-06-2008, 02:10 AM
Make no mistake about it, Crisp is no saint here. Regardless of the play the night before, Shields did not aim high. He should've taken his base and let Crawford or Longoria get what's coming to them. Even the freaking Red Sox announcers said they knew it was coming!

I like the Rays. A lot.

MrCinatit
06-06-2008, 02:22 AM
Recently, waking the Redsox up and making them angry has not really worked out all that well for the other team. This could end up biting the Rays in the behind (even if the Sox did start it).

Meanwhile, while the Rays were pounding on Coco, it looked like they were hitting their fellow players more often than they were hitting Crisp.

mbgrayson
06-06-2008, 02:24 AM
Which wouldn't be anywhere with reach of Crisp's elbow if Iwamura wasn't on the bag. Crisp also comes in high, but that also wouldn't be an issue if Iwamura wasn't on the bag..

Iwamura was passing over the bag. He never blocked it. He ended up five feet on the home plate side of the bag because after Crisp hits him, his momentum was carrying him that direction. Crisp was indeed still able to reach back and touch the bag, but he went a full body length past second.

I still say that it is clear that this was a 'take out slide' all the way. No way was Crisp even thinking about going head first on this slide. He went left for one reason: to nail Iwamura, presumably to pay him back for Bartlett blocking the bag earlier. If a payback 'take out slide' wasn't his intent, what was your point in even mentioning the ealier incident with Bartlett?

I simply disagree that Iwamura did anything wrong on this play. What do the rest of you think?

jmcclain19
06-06-2008, 02:52 AM
For me - what sells it as dirty is the shot to the jock with his elbow. Everything I can understand in the heat of the baseball moment - but you take an elbow to crotch on purpose - and you've got some aggression you're trying to take out. No other possible explanation for doing that.

Jpup
06-06-2008, 03:55 AM
Crisp is trying to stay in the lineup. The Rays guys had been blocking the bag. Iwamura is lucky that he can still walk.

Tampa's run is about over for 08.

mth123
06-06-2008, 05:05 AM
I think both of these teams are acting like thugs. I'm particularly appalled at what I've seen from Coco Crisp.

An elbow to the crotch on a steal? Its worse than bush league and if I were king I'd suspend a guy for the rest of the year for that. I don't care where Iwamura was standing.

Charging he mound when the ball barely hit him in the lower leg? I've never understood the whole charge the mound thing. Take your base and make 'em pay. This wasn't at his head and charging the mound was uncalled for (I think it always is anyway, but can somewhat see why it occurs when a guy gets one near his head). Based on what I've seen, I have a pretty low opinion of Coco Crisp after this. IMO the guy's a thug. I was hoping the Reds could acquire the guy. Now? I'd rather have Corey Patterson out there.

The Rays haven't been angels in all of this either. What a turn-off. Give me a good Royals-Orioles match-up. I'd prefer that than to watching this. If I want to see the WWE, I know where to find it.

blumj
06-06-2008, 08:45 AM
I think both of these teams are acting like thugs. I'm particularly appalled at what I've seen from Coco Crisp.
Crisp was all kinds of wrong here. I don't blame him for getting upset when Bartlett blocked 2nd with his knee on his 1st SBA, so I get why he went in hard the next time, even though it turned out to be Iwamura instead of Bartlett covering. But the elbow was out of line, and he had no excuse for going after Shields. I guess he wanted a fight, and he got what he wanted, but he put his team in an unnecessarily difficult position in all kinds of ways.

But I don't think either team acted like thugs as a team. As far as I can tell, that was just Crisp and the few guys who were beating up on him once he was being held down did.

Matt700wlw
06-06-2008, 09:12 AM
The Rays pitcher hits like a girl

Tommyjohn25
06-06-2008, 09:22 AM
The Rays pitcher hits like a girl

That's what I said when I saw it. Punching like that is a good way to break your wrist.

Chip R
06-06-2008, 09:27 AM
You know, if this were the Rays and Royals or the Rays and Orioles or the Rays vs. anyone except NY and BOS, this wouldn't get near the attention it has.

NJReds
06-06-2008, 09:32 AM
When it comes to issues like this, the Red Sox have carried an attitude that they can do whatever they want, but if you do something back to them then there's going to be a fight. It goes back to the Pedro days. It's one of the things that makes them hard to root for.

Tony Cloninger
06-06-2008, 09:51 AM
It's not like this is a common thing to have fights every night....every once in a while things get heated and you have this...it happened between the Astros and Reds (Knight vs Cedeno) Pitt and Phil (Bruce Kison vs almost half the Phillies team) Reds vs Dodgers (Dave Tomlin throwing behind Lopes after he swung 3-0 with the Dodgers up by 10)

I am glad the Rays did not back down like doormats.....they have been beaten on for years and now you have a cheap shot by Crisp....all over someone blocking the bag? Wow.....blocking the bag.....something really cheap and dirty there :confused: ....Crisp should get about 15 games combined for both incidents. I can understand him charging the mound.......reminds of 1986 when Browning and John Denny were laying it on Kevin Mitchell while he was on the ground.

15fan
06-06-2008, 09:55 AM
MLB should go with the NBA rule - leave the bench and you're fined/suspended.

Then they should have the umps act like the guys in stripes do when a fight breaks out on a hockey rink. 2 guys want to duke it out - fine. Mano-a-mano until they work it out of their system. Then remove them from the field & resume play.

Scrapping the DH in the AL and actually making the pitchers step into the batters box every now and then would be an alternate solution.

blumj
06-06-2008, 09:57 AM
When it comes to issues like this, the Red Sox have carried an attitude that they can do whatever they want, but if you do something back to them then there's going to be a fight. It goes back to the Pedro days. It's one of the things that makes them hard to root for.
It's funny, I was just thinking that, other than one Julian Tavarez incident in spring training 2 years ago, the Red Sox have been remarkably free of these kinds of things since both Pedro and Arroyo have been gone.

backbencher
06-06-2008, 10:00 AM
Crisp was not beaned. He was plunked.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/beanball


Gomes may get beaned, for real. Big difference.

Matt700wlw
06-06-2008, 10:00 AM
Amazingly, Manny hasn't taken one in the earhole the way he shows up pitchers every time he hits a home run.

MWM
06-06-2008, 10:02 AM
You know, if this were the Rays and Royals or the Rays and Orioles or the Rays vs. anyone except NY and BOS, this wouldn't get near the attention it has.

Yep, and if it would have been one of the Rays sliding hard into 2B, you'd have people applauding THAT guy and still lauding the Rays for not backing down to the Sox.

And if Coco Crisp looked more like a Jeff Keppinger or Jay Bruce, I don't think there would be near as much outrage either.

Tony Cloninger
06-06-2008, 10:06 AM
Touche

TheBurn
06-06-2008, 10:07 AM
All would've been good and fine if Crisp had just taken 1st. That's it, that's all...
The pitch wasn't even upstairs. He should have said thanks and taken the base.
Period.

MWM
06-06-2008, 10:16 AM
All would've been good and fine if Crisp had just taken 1st. That's it, that's all...
The pitch wasn't even upstairs. He should have said thanks and taken the base.
Period.

I agree that's what he should have done, and all would have fine for a while at least. But I reject the notion that it's somehow the other team's right to throw at him and he should just sit back and be happy about it. That's just childish and serves no purpose at all. When you're aguy like Crisp, you don't have tons of job security. 90 MPH pitches can hurt someone. Just because it doesn't very often doesn't mean it can't. And pitchers are capable of missing if they're trying to aim low. Intentionally thowing at a hitter is wrong, period. Too much can go wrong. So while Crisp is not very bright for charging the mound, Shields is equally culpable for intentionally trying to hit him.

M2
06-06-2008, 10:24 AM
Iwamura was passing over the bag. He never blocked it.

His foot was on the bag during Crisp's approach and it was still there when he arrived. That's not "passing over."


Crisp was indeed still able to reach back and touch the bag, but he went a full body length past second.

Which is common if you're running fast. He's trying to steal a base. The way steal it most effectively is to run as fast as you can and slide a full body length to the other side.


I still say that it is clear that this was a 'take out slide' all the way. No way was Crisp even thinking about going head first on this slide. He went left for one reason: to nail Iwamura, presumably to pay him back for Bartlett blocking the bag earlier. If a payback 'take out slide' wasn't his intent, what was your point in even mentioning the ealier incident with Bartlett?

The point is for the 2nd time in one game he was stealing a base and a Rays fielder was out on/blocking the bag. I agree it was a takeout slide, but he would have had no one to take out if Iwarmura wasn't on the bag. The reason why you do a takeout slide on a force play is because the fielder is on the bag. The reason why you almost never see one on a SB attempt is because the overwhelming majority of fielders know better. Seems pretty to me Crisp saw Iwamura lingering on the bag and decided to do something about that.


I simply disagree that Iwamura did anything wrong on this play.

Where is Iwamura supposed to be when the runner arrives? It's a simple question and it's not where he was in this case.

bucksfan2
06-06-2008, 10:36 AM
His foot was on the bag during Crisp's approach and it was still there when he arrived. That's not "passing over."



Which is common if you're running fast. He's trying to steal a base. The way steal it most effectively is to run as fast as you can and slide a full body length to the other side.



The point is for the 2nd time in one game he was stealing a base and a Rays fielder was out on/blocking the bag. I agree it was a takeout slide, but he would have had no one to take out if Iwarmura wasn't on the bag. The reason why you do a takeout slide on a force play is because the fielder is on the bag. The reason why you almost never see one on a SB attempt is because the overwhelming majority of fielders know better. Seems pretty to me Crisp saw Iwamura lingering on the bag and decided to do something about that.



Where is Iwamura supposed to be when the runner arrives? It's a simple question and it's not where he was in this case.

It was a bush league slide. The object of stealing a base is to get to the base before the throw does. From my view point he was able to access the bag without having to go through the SS. For whatever reason Crisp slid late, no doubt about it. For a guy who makes a living with speed you would have to assume that the late slide was intental. Crisp deserved to get beaned and he did.

15fan
06-06-2008, 10:43 AM
Good thing for Iwamura that it wasn't Ty Cobb bearing down on him on the SB attempt.

And good thing for Crisp that it wasn't Bob Gibson on the mound.

M2
06-06-2008, 10:51 AM
It was a bush league slide. The object of stealing a base is to get to the base before the throw does. From my view point he was able to access the bag without having to go through the SS. For whatever reason Crisp slid late, no doubt about it. For a guy who makes a living with speed you would have to assume that the late slide was intental. Crisp deserved to get beaned and he did.

I completely agree the slide was made with ill intent, but Crisp shouldn't have to choose which part of the bag he can "access." He should have access to the entire bag, not portions of it. Plus, we're taught in Little League that it's a dangerous play for the fielder to be on any part of the bag in a SB attempt. The runner's going over that bag, at least if he's moving with any sort of speed. The fielder needs to be out of the way.

If the Rays are going to play that game, if they're going try to take that territory from the baserunner, then they better not be surprised when the runners retake that territory by force. I'll say it again, Pete Rose would have mutilated Iwamura for doing what he did.

Blitz Dorsey
06-06-2008, 10:55 AM
The Rays pitcher hits like a girl

I don't know... sure would have loved to see it connect and we could have found out for ourselves. I bet Crisp's punk-butt would have hit the ground.

Blitz Dorsey
06-06-2008, 10:57 AM
The race card has been played!

(Totally disagree BTW.)

blumj
06-06-2008, 11:04 AM
I completely agree the slide was made with ill intent, but Crisp shouldn't have to choose which part of the bag he can "access." He should have access to the entire bag, not portions of it. Plus, we're taught in Little League that it's a dangerous play for the fielder to be on any part of the bag in a SB attempt. The runner's going over that bag, at least if he's moving with any sort of speed. The fielder needs to be out of the way.

If the Rays are going to play that game, if they're going try to take that territory from the baserunner, then they better not be surprised when the runners retake that territory by force. I'll say it again, Pete Rose would have mutilated Iwamura for doing what he did.
Crisp admitted he was going after Bartlett because of the earlier block, he even accused Bartlett of wimping out by letting Iwamura cover the base, like Crisp knew that Bartlett knew what was coming.

westofyou
06-06-2008, 11:08 AM
Pete Rose would have mutilated Iwamura for doing what he did.

Also with the way the game is played in Japan you don't often see guys taking other guys out at the bag or at home, it's never been a big part of the approach. You have to think that a lifetime in that environment has addled Iwamura's grasp of the American approach.

blumj
06-06-2008, 11:15 AM
http://www.tampabay.com/sports/baseball/rays/article609796.ece


Bartlett said he has dropped his knee before, even a couple of times as a member of the Twins against the Rays. He said Rocco Baldelli came up to him once and politely told him to watch his knee next time. Rays manager Joe Maddon said that after Bartlett did that to the Rays last year as a member of the Twins he instructed his team to slide feet first.

M2
06-06-2008, 11:20 AM
Crisp admitted he was going after Bartlett because of the earlier block, he even accused Bartlett of wimping out by letting Iwamura cover the base, like Crisp knew that Bartlett knew what was coming.

It's not our job to be as confused as Coco. I'm sure he was looking for trouble after the first play. Had Iwamura been positioned properly then Crisp would have had to go well out of his way to find it. Maybe Crisp was coming at him no matter what, but he was fuming about the previous play and there was a fielder on the bag, again. Iwamura basically made himself into a man-sized target for Crisp to take aim at.

Bartlett and Iwamura aren't rookies. I'm really wondering if this is a bit of gamesmanship from them.

Anyway, if Iwamura was stationed off the bag toward home plate, like he was supposed to be, then I'd be in agreement with those who are criticizing Crisp. Yet, given that Iwamura was on the bag, my take is Crisp is perfectly within his rights to disembowel the guy. Crisp shouldn't have to play nice or cede so much as a millimeter of that bag on a SB attempt. In that case I say Crisp gets to be as surly as he wants to be.

NJReds
06-06-2008, 11:28 AM
The Rays pitcher hits like a girl

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2008/06/ipt/1212733243.jpg

Chip R
06-06-2008, 11:32 AM
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2008/06/ipt/1212733243.jpg


It looks like he's giving him the old Moe Howard eye poke.

reds44
06-06-2008, 11:37 AM
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2008/06/ipt/1212733243.jpg
I can't help of Willie Mays Hayes vs. Rick Vaughn in Major League II.

Blitz Dorsey
06-06-2008, 02:29 PM
Well you might run like Mays, but you hit like ...

OnBaseMachine
06-06-2008, 05:57 PM
Suspensions handed down after fracas
Five Rays, three Red Sox players disciplined by MLB
By Bill Chastain / MLB.com

ARLINGTON -- Suspensions stemming from Thursday night's incident between the Rays and Red Sox at Fenway Park were handed down by Major League Baseball on Friday.

For the Rays, James Shields received six games; Jonny Gomes, five; Edwin Jackson, five; Carl Crawford, four; and Akinori Iwamura, three.

And for the Red Sox, Coco Crisp received seven; Jon Lester, five; and Sean Casey, three.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080606&content_id=2853150&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Matt700wlw
06-06-2008, 06:00 PM
You don't mess with Casey's boys.


I remember him laying the beat down in the Adam Dunn fight a few years ago..

RedsManRick
06-06-2008, 06:23 PM
What did Casey do? I can't imagine him doing anything but pulling guys apart and offering to take them to dinner...

reds44
06-06-2008, 06:32 PM
What did Casey do? I can't imagine him doing anything but pulling guys apart and offering to take them to dinner...
Don't you remember him losing his mind in Dunn vs. Silva a few years back?

I would pay for video of that brawl.

KronoRed
06-06-2008, 06:43 PM
Silva tried to punch Dunn after his catcher had him down on the ground and Casey came flying in to lay some smack :lol:

Chip R
06-06-2008, 09:21 PM
What did Casey do? I can't imagine him doing anything but pulling guys apart and offering to take them to dinner...


Bear hugs, of course. ;)

Blitz Dorsey
06-06-2008, 09:31 PM
Pratt then tackled Casey (pretty hard tackle) but no one even tried to punch Casey because everyone loves him. But yeah, Casey came running in swinging and gained my respect that day. And Dunn would have killed Silva if not for the shoestring tackle from Lieberthal I believe.

Blitz Dorsey
06-06-2008, 09:35 PM
Dunn taking out the San Diego catcher a few years ago was one of the hardest hits I've ever seen in baseball. Was that Ramon Hernandez? He crushed him, sent him to the hospital I believe.

Reds Freak
06-06-2008, 10:31 PM
Dunn taking out the San Diego catcher a few years ago was one of the hardest hits I've ever seen in baseball. Was that Ramon Hernandez? He crushed him, sent him to the hospital I believe.

I want to say the guy's name was Wiki Gonzalez or something like that. I don't really remember hearing much from him after that hit...

cincyinco
06-06-2008, 10:33 PM
I was looking for that video the other day Blitz, if anyone has it that would be great. And yes, I'm almost certain it was Wiki Gonzalez

oregonred
06-06-2008, 10:44 PM
Defintely Wiki. I used that as my screen saver at work for a few weeks back in '01 or '02

mth123
06-07-2008, 07:01 AM
For me - what sells it as dirty is the shot to the jock with his elbow. Everything I can understand in the heat of the baseball moment - but you take an elbow to crotch on purpose - and you've got some aggression you're trying to take out. No other possible explanation for doing that.

Yep. Blocking a runner off a base and a slide to take out a fielder are part of the game. I have no problem with any of that. As a fan, I actually have a problem if they don't do it. (Hear that David Ross?). An elbow to the crotch is not part of the game. In fact, I think that qualifies as assault and battery.

blumj
06-07-2008, 09:33 AM
Yep. Blocking a runner off a base and a slide to take out a fielder are part of the game. I have no problem with any of that. As a fan, I actually have a problem if they don't do it. (Hear that David Ross?). An elbow to the crotch is not part of the game. In fact, I think that qualifies as assault and battery.
What baseball games are you guys watching? I never see infielders drop a knee to block the base, or slides to take out the fielder, on stolen base attempts.

mth123
06-07-2008, 12:42 PM
What baseball games are you guys watching? I never see infielders drop a knee to block the base, or slides to take out the fielder, on stolen base attempts.

You are right about the slides on steals. Usually this is only to take out a guy on the DP. My error. I have seen guys blocking guys off the bag occasionally, but fear of spikes keeps it rather infrequent. I just think the elbow to the crotch thing takes this out of the game context and turns it into thuggery. The sliding and base blocking are more tolerable IMO.

blumj
06-07-2008, 01:20 PM
You are right about the slides on steals. Usually this is only to take out a guy on the DP. My error. I have seen guys blocking guys off the bag occasionally, but fear of spikes keeps it rather infrequent. I just think the elbow to the crotch thing takes this out of the game context and turns it into thuggery. The sliding and base blocking are more tolerable IMO.
Sure, it was meant to be dirty, as retaliation for something Crisp thought was out of line, and I can understand why he did. I don't think it was the right thing for him to do, but I do understand why Bartlett dropping a knee in front of the base made him angry enough to want to retaliate. And I definitely think it's something Bartlett needs to stop doing if he doesn't want to get himself hurt.

fearofpopvol1
06-13-2008, 01:22 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3441390

Glad to see how mature the Red Sox are...

NJReds
06-13-2008, 01:25 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3441390

Glad to see how mature the Red Sox are...

Papelbon is an idiot. If he even comes too far high and tight to someone he'll probably get a suspension.

blumj
06-13-2008, 01:43 PM
Papelbon is an idiot. If he even comes too far high and tight to someone he'll probably get a suspension.
He really is just about as dumb as a box of rocks. Seriously.

NJReds
06-13-2008, 01:44 PM
He really is just about as dumb as a box of rocks. Seriously.

Darn good pitcher, though.