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Kingspoint
06-07-2008, 02:03 AM
With a couple of baseball players messing around with the Triple Crown in Hamilton and Berkman, horse racing is about to have their 1st Triple Crown Winner in 30 years.

jmcclain19
06-07-2008, 02:28 AM
With a couple of baseball players messing around with the Triple Crown in Hamilton and Berkman, horse racing is about to have their 1st Triple Crown Winner in 30 years.

I'd bet on the under on that one. This seems to happen about every 2 or 3 years and something always comes up.

I would have bet boat loads of cash that War Emblem would have pulled off the trick a couple of years ago - and for some reason tripped up at the end. Same goes for Smarty Jones - that horse was off the charts in the Preakness and they were already giving him the Triple Crown going into the Belmont.

I'd love to see Big Brown do it - but I'd bet against it happening.

Caveat Emperor
06-07-2008, 04:37 AM
I like horse racing and betting on horse racing, but I really don't care about "big time" races. For me, the fun of horse racing is going to the track, making a bet, and watching the race to see if it comes in. I don't really get any entertainment value rooting on a horse that's paying 2-5.

Maybe I'm strange that way.

redhawkfish
06-07-2008, 11:33 AM
The morning line second choice Casino Drive has been scratched from the Belmont!

Yachtzee
06-07-2008, 12:22 PM
I don't really get into horse racing other than the big races, although it was pretty fun going to the track the one time I went. It was a bit intimidating when you get there and guys start throwing all kinds of numbers and scouting reports around (a girl who was a horse racing addict took me). I imagine it would be what its like if I took my wife to a ballgame with a bunch of scouts, or at least a bunch of Redszoners. :)

I think that if I owned a thoroughbred, Crash Davis would be a good name.

kaldaniels
06-07-2008, 01:10 PM
I put 20 on the field vs. Big Brown. 3-1 odds. I'm just a "field" type of person as I debated in a "Will Tiger win the Grand Slam" thread.

captainmorgan07
06-07-2008, 07:47 PM
No triple crown for another year. The Belmont always the jynx of triple crown hopefuls. The length of the Belmont seems to do in the favorites.

Kingspoint
06-07-2008, 07:58 PM
No triple crown for another year. The Belmont always the jynx of triple crown hopefuls. The length of the Belmont seems to do in the favorites.

It's always about the drugs.

No drugs in New York. The only place in America where you can get a horse race and you are actually seeing what the horses natural abilities are.

IslandRed
06-07-2008, 09:37 PM
I don't think that was it, and we probably should have seen this coming. The Belmont isn't called the "test of champions" for nothing. It's a grueling, demanding race that eats up any horse that's not at his peak, and Big Brown's training was disrupted because of the hoof problem. He was just short today and I'm not sure anyone could have done anything about it.

Unfortunately for Dutrow, he'd done so much woofing about Big Brown's invincibility that even if he suspected the horse might not have his game, he'd have been barbecued for saying so pre-race. The tone of racing discussions being what they've been lately, there's no way he was going to admit he was sending Big Brown to the post at anything less than 100%.

On the plus side, maybe Big Brown will stay on the racetrack for awhile to regain his luster instead of being hustled off to the stud farm.

Reds4Life
06-07-2008, 10:30 PM
I don't think that was it, and we probably should have seen this coming. The Belmont isn't called the "test of champions" for nothing. It's a grueling, demanding race that eats up any horse that's not at his peak, and Big Brown's training was disrupted because of the hoof problem. He was just short today and I'm not sure anyone could have done anything about it.

Unfortunately for Dutrow, he'd done so much woofing about Big Brown's invincibility that even if he suspected the horse might not have his game, he'd have been barbecued for saying so pre-race. The tone of racing discussions being what they've been lately, there's no way he was going to admit he was sending Big Brown to the post at anything less than 100%.

On the plus side, maybe Big Brown will stay on the racetrack for awhile to regain his luster instead of being hustled off to the stud farm.

My guess is if this race had been anything other than final leg of the triple crown, he wouldn't have run. It probably should have been that way to start with, if he's injuried he should have never been entered in the race to start with.

RedFanAlways1966
06-07-2008, 10:46 PM
I put 20 on the field vs. Big Brown. 3-1 odds. I'm just a "field" type of person as I debated in a "Will Tiger win the Grand Slam" thread.

Good pick. :thumbup:

Red Heeler
06-08-2008, 09:01 PM
It's always about the drugs.

No drugs in New York. The only place in America where you can get a horse race and you are actually seeing what the horses natural abilities are.

As the resident equine veterinarian, let me just say, "Bull."

TB racing in any state is highly regulated. It wasn't always that way, and the reputation still holds.

A quick education on Winstol. It is a testosterone derivative. It will shortly be a prohibited substance in all jurisdictions. However, that is more of a response the fallout from human PEDs than any medical justification. It has been shown in multiple studies that Winstrol has NO effect on race times.

George Foster
06-08-2008, 11:59 PM
Big Brown is a good horse in a "down year" of 3 year olds. If you look at his race times in the first two races in the triple crown, they are slow compaired to past champions. His training up to the Belmont, might of had something to do with it as well. Not getting a shot of the "juice" before the race for the first time in his career might of had something to do with it also.

I'm glad he did not win, a triple crown winner should have true competition, and this was just a down year.http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/triplecrown08/columns/story?columnist=paulick_ray&id=3394285

Cedric
06-09-2008, 03:09 AM
As the resident equine veterinarian, let me just say, "Bull."

TB racing in any state is highly regulated. It wasn't always that way, and the reputation still holds.

A quick education on Winstol. It is a testosterone derivative. It will shortly be a prohibited substance in all jurisdictions. However, that is more of a response the fallout from human PEDs than any medical justification. It has been shown in multiple studies that Winstrol has NO effect on race times.

It increases muscle mass, strength, red blood cell production, and aggressive behavior. I'd say some would assume that could help a horse run.

You know more than me, but more than just your regular conspiracy theorists have some problems with Winstrol.

westofyou
06-09-2008, 03:04 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7638


Big Brown won two legs of the Triple Crown, possibly aided by steroids, but he wasn't as fast as the last Triple Crown winner, and he wasn't as fast as horse racing's Babe Ruth. Steroids didn't make a horse into Superman. Horse expert Michael Hindman said it better than I could:

Secretariat would be Babe Ruth if Babe Ruth had once hit 90 homers in a season and no one else has ever hit more than 50. The gap in physical ability between him and all other thoroughbreds is unlike anything else in sports history. Put it this way: Secretariat was capable of hitting 600-foot homers. Secretariat's 35-year-old Kentucky Derby record time still stands, and nobody has ever come close to it. His 35-year-old world record time at a mile and a half set in the Belmont has never been challenged by any horse ever, anywhere. He ran his mile and a half in 2:24. No other horse--anywhere, ever--has broken 2:25.3. That means that the second best time at a mile and a half, ever, would have been eight lengths behind him. Secretariat also set the world record at a mile and an eighth. He ran once on the grass and set a track record at Belmont Park (again at a mile and a half) that still stands 35 years later. Secretariat ran against and beat the crap out of at least five other Hall of Fame horses. Big Brown is beating one of the worst crops of three year olds ever. By the way, we've used Winstrol and Equipoise on horses from time to time over the years, and as far as I can tell it doesn't do much for them other than run up the vet bill.

IslandRed
06-09-2008, 07:53 PM
I was talking to a friend of mine who follows racing. He's just as baffled as everyone else. He said none of the theories -- disruption in training (my favorite), missing the Winstrol dose, missing whatever other meds New York might not allow that other states do, the track surface, nothing -- can explain why a horse that could win the first two legs of the Triple Crown without seemingly breathing hard would be finished after galloping the slow opening mile of the Belmont. Unless he stood in his stall the whole three weeks eating the horse equivalent of Cheetos, he just wouldn't lose that much conditioning.

So, unless an explanation like Spectacular Bid's safety pin turns up, we'll probably never know why Big Brown just didn't run.

IslandRed
06-09-2008, 08:00 PM
he wasn't as fast as horse racing's Babe Ruth

I never get tired of watching Secretariat's Triple Crown races on Youtube. Each race was amazing for a different reason.

Reds4Life
06-09-2008, 08:13 PM
I never get tired of watching Secretariat's Triple Crown races on Youtube. Each race was amazing for a different reason.

Me either. I've seen the Belmont probably 100 times, and I still get goosebumps everytime I see it. Simpy stunning. Preakness to, I don't think I've ever seen a horse fly as fast as he did coming out of the first turn, he simply destroyed them as if they were standing still.

Kingspoint
06-09-2008, 09:56 PM
As the resident equine veterinarian, let me just say, "Bull."

TB racing in any state is highly regulated. It wasn't always that way, and the reputation still holds.

A quick education on Winstol. It is a testosterone derivative. It will shortly be a prohibited substance in all jurisdictions. However, that is more of a response the fallout from human PEDs than any medical justification. It has been shown in multiple studies that Winstrol has NO effect on race times.

Bull, right back.

The use and non-use of Lasix has always been the determining factor on why a horse can win the 1st two legs of the Triple Crown and not the third.

As you know, when Lasix prevents a horse's lungs from bleeding because of being pushed too hard, the non-use of Lasix in New York does not allow the horse to run as hard as it did in Maryland and Kentucky. Add to that the extra distance and the non-use of drugs, Lasix in particular and others like it, a Champion horse in Kentucky and Maryland becomes ordinary among it's class in New York.

Kingspoint
06-09-2008, 09:58 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7638

Secretariat's heart was four times the normal size.

It would be like someone having Popeye's arms and Superman's eyes.

Kingspoint
06-09-2008, 10:01 PM
I was talking to a friend of mine who follows racing. He's just as baffled as everyone else. He said none of the theories -- disruption in training (my favorite), missing the Winstrol dose, missing whatever other meds New York might not allow that other states do, the track surface, nothing -- can explain why a horse that could win the first two legs of the Triple Crown without seemingly breathing hard would be finished after galloping the slow opening mile of the Belmont. Unless he stood in his stall the whole three weeks eating the horse equivalent of Cheetos, he just wouldn't lose that much conditioning.

So, unless an explanation like Spectacular Bid's safety pin turns up, we'll probably never know why Big Brown just didn't run.

The trainer was lying about the horse being ready. When asked the direct question before the race, he shot his eyes very quickly to his left before bringing them back to answer the question, a gesture that usually indicates one is lying. :rolleyes:

Red Heeler
06-10-2008, 02:03 AM
Bull, right back.

The use and non-use of Lasix has always been the determining factor on why a horse can win the 1st two legs of the Triple Crown and not the third.

As you know, when Lasix prevents a horse's lungs from bleeding because of being pushed too hard, the non-use of Lasix in New York does not allow the horse to run as hard as it did in Maryland and Kentucky. Add to that the extra distance and the non-use of drugs, Lasix in particular and others like it, a Champion horse in Kentucky and Maryland becomes ordinary among it's class in New York.

Lasix is legal in NY:

(1) The administration of furosemide is permissible to a horse, which has qualified for its use by any of the following means:

(i) the horse has bled visibly during a race or a workout, as determined by the association veterinarian; or

(ii) the horse has bled during a race or workout, as determined by an attending veterinarian based upon his/her clinical assessment of the horse which may or may not include an endoscopic examination after the race or workout; or

(iii) the horse has been qualified by the State veterinarian or a veterinarian employed by the racetrack for the administration of furosemide in another racing jurisdiction; or

(iv) the horse has raced on furosemide in its last race in a jurisdiction with rules substantially similar to New York State.



Three major races in three different venues over roughly 6 weeks. Keeping a horse "peaked" for that long is an enormous challenge. Add into that the last race is LOOOOONG. Don't belittle the difficulty of the Triple Crown by bringing medication rules into the discussion.

SandyD
06-10-2008, 02:13 AM
Maybe he just had a "bad day." Does there have to be an explanation?

jimbo
06-10-2008, 04:29 PM
Maybe he just had a "bad day." Does there have to be an explanation?

There's an explanation, but it may never be discovered.

I've been involved in harness racing for the better part of my life, so I know a little about horses. The jockey is going to know this more than anyone, but just watching on tv it looked like Brig Brown never look "comfortable" throughout the race. It looked as if he got kicked early, it looked like he wanted to get out of traffic early but couldn't, and towards the end it appeared to me that his ears were perking backwards......which is usually a sign that the horse is either unhappy or hurting. Either way, it's a good indication the horse isn't at it's best form. On top of that ,he was on the outside uncovered for a big part of the race and in the last turn, meaning he is racing a farther distance than the rail horses.

It may have just been a combination of all of those things. If a horse is unhappy or uncomfortable during a race, he (she) isn't going to give you their best. It's just one of those things that we may never know, simply because Big Brown can't tell us.

Kingspoint
06-10-2008, 09:13 PM
Lasix is legal in NY:




How long has NY been allowing Lasix and how easy is it to get a horse qualified in that state for it's use?

BTW, your avatar looks like Bold Ruler, if he was a little darker.

MWM
06-10-2008, 10:05 PM
Dutrow is now throwing Desormeaux under the bus blaming him. His rationale is that nothing is wrong with the horse, so it must be the rider. That guy is one piece of work.

Reds4Life
06-10-2008, 10:19 PM
Dutrow is now throwing Desormeaux under the bus blaming him. His rationale is that nothing is wrong with the horse, so it must be the rider. That guy is one piece of work.

He's a complete baffoon.

Kingspoint
06-10-2008, 10:34 PM
Dutrow is now throwing Desormeaux under the bus blaming him. His rationale is that nothing is wrong with the horse, so it must be the rider. That guy is one piece of work.

He is the bum he always was.

RedsBaron
06-11-2008, 07:38 AM
Dutrow is now throwing Desormeaux under the bus blaming him. His rationale is that nothing is wrong with the horse, so it must be the rider. That guy is one piece of work.

I know next to nothing about horse racing, but Dutrow appears to be a jerk. I was hoping to see Big Brown win the triple crown, but I'm glad Dutrow doesn't get to celebrate such an achievement.

IowaRed
06-11-2008, 11:44 AM
After the Derby I was just a little annoyed by Dutrow, turns out I'm glad Big Brown didn't win the Triple Crown and I'm also glad that Dutrow doesn't get the claim to fame of having trained a Triple Crown winner.

cumberlandreds
06-11-2008, 12:21 PM
After the Derby I was just a little annoyed by Dutrow, turns out I'm glad Big Brown didn't win the Triple Crown and I'm also glad that Dutrow doesn't get the claim to fame of having trained a Triple Crown winner.

Maybe Big Brown knew what a jerk Dutrow is and decided to "throw" the race so Dutrow wouldn't have that Triple Crown glory. :D

Red Heeler
06-11-2008, 04:11 PM
How long has NY been allowing Lasix and how easy is it to get a horse qualified in that state for it's use?

BTW, your avatar looks like Bold Ruler, if he was a little darker.

I don't know how long Lasix has been legal in NY. It was not allowed for a long time. I'm pretty sure I read that all but one of the horses in this year's Belmont would be on it. TB racing is not my area of expertise. I work on mostly Western performance horses.

The horse in my avatar is a QH reining horse. He is the sire of a foal I have right now.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 05:20 PM
As the resident equine veterinarian, let me just say, "Bull."

TB racing in any state is highly regulated. It wasn't always that way, and the reputation still holds.

A quick education on Winstol. It is a testosterone derivative. It will shortly be a prohibited substance in all jurisdictions. However, that is more of a response the fallout from human PEDs than any medical justification. It has been shown in multiple studies that Winstrol has NO effect on race times.

Isn’t Winstol a steroid used mostly by trainers with geldings or do I have that mixed up with another? I believe that we used that with one of our geldings back in the day to make them more up on the bit or aggressive as we used the term for it back then. I only know that the use of the steroid seemed to make a behavioral change in the horse, nastier, if one took him out on the lead to graze a bit, but I never saw it effect a race outcome for us.

As far as Lasix you would be more qualified than I, but, it was my understanding that long ago they would use Lasix to effect the bleeding because a horse would stop if he was bleeding and tasted it, and that old time trainers before testing became so much better as it is today, that trainers would use Lasix to mask other stimulating enhancers, I am asking not telling.

Could Big Brown have had a need for Lasix or was he already on it.

When reading that the wire horse or the horse that was leading the race got away with a slow first mile then it would stand to reason that the lead or wire horse cutting the mile had an easy trip making it very difficult for horses in the rear to make up the ground and to overcome the eventual winner. Could that have been the case with Big Brown?

Has there been any justification in print for what was reported that the Jockey eased Big Brown?

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 05:30 PM
The trainer was lying about the horse being ready. When asked the direct question before the race, he shot his eyes very quickly to his left before bringing them back to answer the question, a gesture that usually indicates one is lying. :rolleyes:

I do that frequently when I am unsure of myself and the correct answer, it does not necessarily mean that one is lying, they can be uncomfortable or insecure regarding the question and answer and do that with their eyes or body language.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 05:36 PM
There's an explanation, but it may never be discovered.

I've been involved in harness racing for the better part of my life, so I know a little about horses. The jockey is going to know this more than anyone, but just watching on tv it looked like Brig Brown never look "comfortable" throughout the race. It looked as if he got kicked early, it looked like he wanted to get out of traffic early but couldn't, and towards the end it appeared to me that his ears were perking backwards......which is usually a sign that the horse is either unhappy or hurting. Either way, it's a good indication the horse isn't at it's best form. On top of that ,he was on the outside uncovered for a big part of the race and in the last turn, meaning he is racing a farther distance than the rail horses.
It may have just been a combination of all of those things. If a horse is unhappy or uncomfortable during a race, he (she) isn't going to give you their best. It's just one of those things that we may never know, simply because Big Brown can't tell us.

To me that makes sense, especially with the horse cutting the race getting away with slow fractions of the first mile etc. coupled with the other barriers working against Big Brown. As the lead horse opens up after the slow early fractions, then it would give the appearance of that of the rear horses just stopping when actually they could not close against the leader after the early slow fractions.

Kingspoint
06-11-2008, 06:51 PM
I don't know how long Lasix has been legal in NY. It was not allowed for a long time. I'm pretty sure I read that all but one of the horses in this year's Belmont would be on it. TB racing is not my area of expertise. I work on mostly Western performance horses.

The horse in my avatar is a QH reining horse. He is the sire of a foal I have right now.

What a beautiful horse! He has the look of a Champion.

Kingspoint
06-11-2008, 06:54 PM
I do that frequently when I am unsure of myself and the correct answer, it does not necessarily mean that one is lying, they can be uncomfortable or insecure regarding the question and answer and do that with their eyes or body language.

That's true, too. And, when he did it, I was trying in my mind to determine which it was. But, with no personal history with him, I had nothing to compare it to.

But, taking that particular moment in context, he was asked point blank, "Is Big Brown healthy?". There should have been no insecurity in answering that question. If he was healthy, the response should have been quickly and without the subconscious shifting of the eyes.

Spring~Fields
06-11-2008, 07:43 PM
But, taking that particular moment in context, he was asked point blank, "Is Big Brown healthy?". There should have been no insecurity in answering that question. If he was healthy, the response should have been quickly and without the subconscious shifting of the eyes.

Yes

IslandRed
06-11-2008, 08:11 PM
When reading that the wire horse or the horse that was leading the race got away with a slow first mile then it would stand to reason that the lead or wire horse cutting the mile had an easy trip making it very difficult for horses in the rear to make up the ground and to overcome the eventual winner. Could that have been the case with Big Brown?

It is very true, particularly in distance races, that a pacesetter wants to be on the lead while preserving as much energy as possible. But the opening mile of the Belmont is always kind of slow, unless the leader's name is Secretariat. Da' Tara ran it in 1:37 and change, which is a touch on the slow side but nothing outrageous, and Big Brown was well positioned entering the far turn. He just didn't fire. Da' Tara plodded home in 52 seconds for the last half-mile, which Big Brown should have obliterated had he been on his game.


Has there been any justification in print for what was reported that the Jockey eased Big Brown?

I haven't seen that decision criticized, to be honest. He eased the horse at the top of the stretch after the field had already gone by. He'd already asked him to run and got a negative answer, so there was no benefit to pushing him hard down the stretch.

Reds4Life
06-11-2008, 08:28 PM
I haven't seen that decision criticized, to be honest. He eased the horse at the top of the stretch after the field had already gone by. He'd already asked him to run and got a negative answer, so there was no benefit to pushing him hard down the stretch.

Despite what he said to the media, I think Desormeaux probably felt the horse was running injured, and that is why he pulled him up. I think he even stated his goal down the stretch was just to get him to finish safely and without injury. You don't pull a horse up for no reason, Desormeaux isn't stupid and has been around the block a few times. I would applaud such a decision, if it's the case. With the rash of breakdowns in the triple crown races the last few years, it wasn't worth risking another one for a race you've already lost.

Red Heeler
06-12-2008, 10:16 PM
Isnít Winstol a steroid used mostly by trainers with geldings or do I have that mixed up with another? I believe that we used that with one of our geldings back in the day to make them more up on the bit or aggressive as we used the term for it back then. I only know that the use of the steroid seemed to make a behavioral change in the horse, nastier, if one took him out on the lead to graze a bit, but I never saw it effect a race outcome for us.

As far as Lasix you would be more qualified than I, but, it was my understanding that long ago they would use Lasix to effect the bleeding because a horse would stop if he was bleeding and tasted it, and that old time trainers before testing became so much better as it is today, that trainers would use Lasix to mask other stimulating enhancers, I am asking not telling.

Could Big Brown have had a need for Lasix or was he already on it.

When reading that the wire horse or the horse that was leading the race got away with a slow first mile then it would stand to reason that the lead or wire horse cutting the mile had an easy trip making it very difficult for horses in the rear to make up the ground and to overcome the eventual winner. Could that have been the case with Big Brown?

Has there been any justification in print for what was reported that the Jockey eased Big Brown?

The behavioral changes you noted are the only consistently demonstrated effects of Winstol on healthy horses. It does decrease recovery time for horses who have lost body mass due to injury, illness, or malnutrition.

The reason horses don't run well when they bleed doesn't have anything to do with tasting blood. With very strenuous excercise, the blood pressure in some horses lungs increases to the point that blood actually leaks into the airways. With the advent of endoscopy and high speed treadmills, it has been discovered that there are many horses who have hemorrhaging into their airways who do not show blood from the nostrils.

Lasix is a diuretic which decreases the blood pressure within the lungs. I don't know whether Big Brown has always raced on Lasix or if this is a recent thing for him. As I understand it, he was given Lasix for the Belmont.

Spring~Fields
06-13-2008, 01:45 AM
The behavioral changes you noted are the only consistently demonstrated effects of Winstol on healthy horses. It does decrease recovery time for horses who have lost body mass due to injury, illness, or malnutrition.

The reason horses don't run well when they bleed doesn't have anything to do with tasting blood. With very strenuous excercise, the blood pressure in some horses lungs increases to the point that blood actually leaks into the airways. With the advent of endoscopy and high speed treadmills, it has been discovered that there are many horses who have hemorrhaging into their airways who do not show blood from the nostrils.

Lasix is a diuretic which decreases the blood pressure within the lungs. I don't know whether Big Brown has always raced on Lasix or if this is a recent thing for him. As I understand it, he was given Lasix for the Belmont.

Thank you for clarifying each point for me, it has been quite a number of years since we had horses, and I had thought that probably much had changed, with various advances.

Spring~Fields
06-25-2008, 03:27 PM
Dutrow faces ban for horse's positive testby Associated PressUpdated: June 25, 2008, 11:29 AM EST52 comments add this Rick Dutrow, trainer of Kentucky Derby and Preakness winner Big Brown, is facing a 15-day suspension by Kentucky racing officials after another horse he trains exceeded the allowable limit for a drug that increases lung capacity.

Two separate drug tests on 8-year-old gelding Salute the Count revealed the horse had twice the allowable limit of Clenbuterol in his system after finishing second in the Aegon Turf Sprint at Churchill Downs on May 2, said John Veitch, chief steward of the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority.

Clenbuterol is often used by humans who suffer from asthma. Veitch said use of the drug in horses has grown because it can increase lung capacity. It is considered a Class B drug. Though use of the drug is legal under Kentucky racing guidelines, it cannot be administered 72 hours before a race.

"It's a respiratory enhancer," Veitch said. "It's become quite popular in racing medication because it's used to train on."

Dutrow waived his right to a hearing but plans to file a written appeal, which he must do within the next 10 days. There's no timetable on when Dutrow's appeal will be heard, Veitch said.

http://msn.foxsports.com/horseracing/story/8280738/Dutrow-faces-ban-for-horse%27s-positive-test