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redhawk61
06-07-2008, 07:07 PM
I wouldn't be surprised, if the Reds decide to sign Dunn LT if while Yonder is working his way up if they have him play both 1b and 3b. He could be Miguel Cabrera like out there. I think he could do well enough there where his bat will far outweigh any lack of D. They say he has the arm for it and that he played 3b in HS but when he got to Miami Ryan Braun was there so they put him at 1st.

Another thing to think about it that Yonder if really good friends with A-Rod, they talk to each other a few times a week and have workout together, so he would probably be seeking his mentoring during the offseason.

Any who it could work. For those who complain about there being two many lefties with Votto, Bruce, Dunn, Alonso, all of those besides Dunn hit lefties just fine, Votto actually hits lefties better than righties, thus it wouldn't be bad at all

EE could be dealt in a package for catching help

I mean just imagine a lineup with Bruce, Votto, BP, Kepp, Alonso, and Dunn in it

Of course there is always Todd Fraizer for LF if he hurrys his progress.

Regardless there are many choices for us in which to go and the future of the Reds offense looks very very bright

Will M
06-07-2008, 10:55 PM
I wouldn't be surprised, if the Reds decide to sign Dunn LT if while Yonder is working his way up if they have him play both 1b and 3b. He could be Miguel Cabrera like out there. I think he could do well enough there where his bat will far outweigh any lack of D. They say he has the arm for it and that he played 3b in HS but when he got to Miami Ryan Braun was there so they put him at 1st.

Another thing to think about it that Yonder if really good friends with A-Rod, they talk to each other a few times a week and have workout together, so he would probably be seeking his mentoring during the offseason.

Any who it could work. For those who complain about there being two many lefties with Votto, Bruce, Dunn, Alonso, all of those besides Dunn hit lefties just fine, Votto actually hits lefties better than righties, thus it wouldn't be bad at all

EE could be dealt in a package for catching help

I mean just imagine a lineup with Bruce, Votto, BP, Kepp, Alonso, and Dunn in it

Of course there is always Todd Fraizer for LF if he hurrys his progress.

Regardless there are many choices for us in which to go and the future of the Reds offense looks very very bright

if he can't play 3B as well as Ryan Braun then he has no business playing 3B.
Braun was so bad at 3B the brewers moved him to LF

RedlegJake
06-08-2008, 06:00 AM
My guess is Alonso will be playing 1B pretty much exclusively although they may play him at third just enough that he can fill in in a pinch.

princeton
06-08-2008, 09:14 AM
third is by far the Reds' strongest position (EdE, Keppy, Frazier, Francisco), and putting Yonder there just slows his progress to the majors

Reds need Yonder quickly and will put him at the position that gets him the majors fastest-- first base.

Screwball
06-08-2008, 04:50 PM
For those who complain about there being two many lefties with Votto, Bruce, Dunn, Alonso, all of those besides Dunn hit lefties just fine


I agree with pretty much everything else you wrote, however Dunn hits lefties just fine. Of course, he's not as good against them as he is RHP, but his career OPS against LHP is .840. Not outstanding, but certainly more than acceptable.

Homer Bailey
06-08-2008, 06:24 PM
I agree with pretty much everything else you wrote, however Dunn hits lefties just fine. Of course, he's not as good against them as he is RHP, but his career OPS against LHP is .840. Not outstanding, but certainly more than acceptable.

I personally don't buy "career numbers" when it comes to how hitters hit types of pitchers. A teams ability to bring in a "lefty specialist" is made to get left handed hitters out, and you can't really say the same about starters. Of course I don't have career numbers on "lefty specialists" but do you see what I'm saying?

Screwball
06-08-2008, 09:23 PM
I personally don't buy "career numbers" when it comes to how hitters hit types of pitchers. A teams ability to bring in a "lefty specialist" is made to get left handed hitters out, and you can't really say the same about starters. Of course I don't have career numbers on "lefty specialists" but do you see what I'm saying?

I think I get the gist of what you're saying, but I can't say I agree. The whole reason I used his career numbers is because it's a large enough sample size (1390 ABs) to be able to make inferences about his ability to hit LHP.

It's true that he has had to face LOOGY specialists many a time (who gets a paycheck for the sole purpose of getting LHBs out, obviously), and the fact his career OPS is still 40 points over .800 against LHP tells me he pretty much rakes against your normal southpaw starter or reliever.

He won't hit for as much power (.477 SLG) or get on base at the same clip (.363 OBP) as he does against RHP, but I have no problem watching him dig in against LHP.

Homer Bailey
06-09-2008, 02:21 AM
I think I get the gist of what you're saying, but I can't say I agree. The whole reason I used his career numbers is because it's a large enough sample size (1390 ABs) to be able to make inferences about his ability to hit LHP.

It's true that he has had to face LOOGY specialists many a time (who gets a paycheck for the sole purpose of getting LHBs out, obviously), and the fact his career OPS is still 40 points over .800 against LHP tells me he pretty much rakes against your normal southpaw starter or reliever.

He won't hit for as much power (.477 SLG) or get on base at the same clip (.363 OBP) as he does against RHP, but I have no problem watching him dig in against LHP.


I agree. I can't really complain about the way Dunn hits lefties. However, there really is only one guy the Reds have that RAKES against lefties, and that is Phillips, and unfortunately, I think that's why he bats clean up even against righties. That way, other teams get hurt if they bring in a lefty for Jr., they either have to take him out or pitch to Phillips to get to Dunn. Even though Dunn does fine against lefties, the team in general lacks the depth of right handed hitting to really cause mismatches late in the game. Those mismatches are often spun around on the Reds.

But because of the lack of RH hitting, BP has to hit 4th even against righties, which kills the lineup more often than not. (I say "has to" because that is what Dusty thinks.... That he has to hit there and that there is no other option).

Screwball
06-09-2008, 02:31 AM
I agree. I can't really complain about the way Dunn hits lefties. However, there really is only one guy the Reds have that RAKES against lefties, and that is Phillips, and unfortunately, I think that's why he bats clean up even against righties. That way, other teams get hurt if they bring in a lefty for Jr., they either have to take him out or pitch to Phillips to get to Dunn. Even though Dunn does fine against lefties, the team in general lacks the depth of right handed hitting to really cause mismatches late in the game. Those mismatches are often spun around on the Reds.

But because of the lack of RH hitting, BP has to hit 4th even against righties, which kills the lineup more often than not. (I say "has to" because that is what Dusty thinks.... That he has to hit there and that there is no other option).

Good point. Dunn can hold his own against LHP, but Phillips flat out destroys southpaws to the tune of a 1.069 OPS this season. Of course, like you said, it'd be nice to get his .297 OBP against RHP out of the 4 hole, but I don't think we'll be seeing that happen anytime soon.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 08:59 AM
third is by far the Reds' strongest position (EdE, Keppy, Frazier, Francisco), and putting Yonder there just slows his progress to the majors

Reds need Yonder quickly and will put him at the position that gets him the majors fastest-- first base.

If you think Jeff Keppinger could be an everyday Third Baseman in the Majors, Lord help you...

No Offense but this "I love you" Dance with Kepp has got to come down to Earth. Keppinger might have hit .324, thats fine and dandy... The guy is a back up... A great guy to have back up all 4 Infield positions.

Yonder at 3rd? I wish? I thought Frazier was in the Outfield?

11larkin11
06-09-2008, 10:06 AM
If you think Jeff Keppinger could be an everyday Third Baseman in the Majors, Lord help you...

No Offense but this "I love you" Dance with Kepp has got to come down to Earth. Keppinger might have hit .324, thats fine and dandy... The guy is a back up... A great guy to have back up all 4 Infield positions.

Yonder at 3rd? I wish? I thought Frazier was in the Outfield?

The guy is not a back up, he may very well be our most clutch hitter and if would have stayed healthy would be our #1 or #2 RBI man. He's very fundamentally sound defensively, but scouts say he isn't a good defender at short due to his lack of range. It isn't really a lack of range, just not outstanding range. He is sound fielding and throwing, and has average range. I take that from our best hitter.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 10:08 AM
The guy is not a back up, he may very well be our most clutch hitter and if would have stayed healthy would be our #1 or #2 RBI man. He's very fundamentally sound defensively, but scouts say he isn't a good defender at short due to his lack of range. It isn't really a lack of range, just not outstanding range. He is sound fielding and throwing, and has average range. I take that from our best hitter.

Dude, no offense... But Kepp is a Role Player at best... Hariston is hitting like.316 and was hitting .340 for the first 20 games he was here as well...

Bako was hitting what? .370 at some point?

Kepp is a fine hitter, but some people make him out to be Michael Young, which he is not... He is a guy that is going to hit .290-.300 and have gap power... Not a Starter... Unless he was playing for the Royals.

bucksfan2
06-09-2008, 10:27 AM
Dude, no offense... But Kepp is a Role Player at best... Hariston is hitting like.316 and was hitting .340 for the first 20 games he was here as well...

Bako was hitting what? .370 at some point?

Kepp is a fine hitter, but some people make him out to be Michael Young, which he is not... He is a guy that is going to hit .290-.300 and have gap power... Not a Starter... Unless he was playing for the Royals.

Huh? Keppinger is probably the best pure hitter on the team. He isn't going to hit many HR's but he isn't going to strike out much. He will hit the ball all over the field. If he is just a role player I would be interested to see the 8 other positions players that you feel are better hitters/players than Keppinger.

MikeS21
06-09-2008, 10:32 AM
The guy is not a back up, he may very well be our most clutch hitter and if would have stayed healthy would be our #1 or #2 RBI man. He's very fundamentally sound defensively, but scouts say he isn't a good defender at short due to his lack of range. It isn't really a lack of range, just not outstanding range. He is sound fielding and throwing, and has average range. I take that from our best hitter.
I think Kepp's main problem is that he is not perceived as one of those guys who will make ESPN Sportscenter's highlight reel every night. He is solid, but not elite. And that is OK, because you need a couple of those players on the roster. The truth is, all the "big names" who WILL make Sportscenter are extreme streaky hitters (Dunn, Griffey, Phillips, etc.). Kepp is the guy who flies under the radar all year and on the last day of season, you look at his stats and say, "Wow ... he's had a nice year."

As far as Alonso at 3B, I think he'd be better over "Yonder" at 1B. :p: Seriously, I don't think the Reds want to sign Adam Dunn to a huge contract and get saddled with a $15+ million per year salary for the next 3-5 years. Not when they have Votto, who can play probably equivalent defense in LF. Votto, on his best year, won't provide Dunn's offensive numbers, but with Bruce in RF, you have to wonder if Stubbs may be the best option in CF next year (barring a trade for an offensive minded CF). That's better defense in CF and RF, and you may not need as much thunder as you do now.

44Magnum
06-09-2008, 10:44 AM
I have to question anyone who doesn't believe Kepp is an everyday player at this point. Just watch is at-bats and his approach to hitting. He will hit for a higher average than anyone who started the season on the Reds roster.

I also believe he could play a good 3b.

11larkin11
06-09-2008, 11:32 AM
Dude, no offense... But Kepp is a Role Player at best... Hariston is hitting like.316 and was hitting .340 for the first 20 games he was here as well...

Bako was hitting what? .370 at some point?

Kepp is a fine hitter, but some people make him out to be Michael Young, which he is not... He is a guy that is going to hit .290-.300 and have gap power... Not a Starter... Unless he was playing for the Royals.

Kepp is a career .320 hitter in the minors and .313 hitter in 3 years in the majors. He was leading this team in RBIs. He has OPSed over .800 this year and over .850 last year. His OBP last year was .400 and was .373 this year. Kepp is 28, Hairston is 32. Last year for Kepp was better than any year Hairston has had. And one thing you cannot measure in stats, Kepp is straight CLUTCH. I like Hairston and we should ride him while he's hot. But Kepp is a diamond in the rough and the best pure hitter on this team.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 02:12 PM
Kepp is a career .320 hitter in the minors and .313 hitter in 3 years in the majors. He was leading this team in RBIs. He has OPSed over .800 this year and over .850 last year. His OBP last year was .400 and was .373 this year. Kepp is 28, Hairston is 32. Last year for Kepp was better than any year Hairston has had. And one thing you cannot measure in stats, Kepp is straight CLUTCH. I like Hairston and we should ride him while he's hot. But Kepp is a diamond in the rough and the best pure hitter on this team.

Keppinger only played last year... 241 AB's and a .332 average... Before that with the Royals he hit .267 in 60 AB's and before that, he didn't play in the Majors in 2005, so for the Mets in 2004 he hit .284 in 116 AB's...

So let me say this... Keppinger is not a Bad hitter. He is a contact hitter. He is a right handed Hatteberg... He has less that 1 year of major league experience all together... Only playing in 161 Games over "parts" of 4 different seasons hitting .313... Let him get a full season of 150+ games in 1 Full season before you start talking about CLUTCH and all this "S on the Chest" stuff you guys are rambling about...

Jeff Keppinger is a servicable Major League Hitter YES... But not this super star Michael Young type "CLUTCH" player you are all making him out to be... He is a Role player getting time to play due to injuries...

Would I rather have him starting ahead of Alex Gonzalez? Yes, cause I dislike AGon as a Baseball player... Would I prefer him over Michael Young? No...

Would I want him as a reserve? Yes.

Would I want him as a Starter? No.

RedsManRick
06-09-2008, 02:23 PM
There's no bones about it, Keppinger is among the best contact hitters in all of baseball. I don't think that should be up for debate.

In 2007, Keppinger was 5th in Contact%, behind, Castillo, Eckstein, Polanco, and Pierre.
In 2008, Keppinger is 5th again, behind Izturis, Pierre, Castillo, and Theriot.

That's not luck. That's a legitimate skill that's repeatable and projectable. Defensively, he's stretched big time as a SS. Offensively, he's just mediocre as a 3B. But put him at 2B, and I see Placidco Polanco clone. Everything in his major and minor league career suggests as much. His lack of opportunity at the major league level says more about teams overvaluing speed and undervaluing OBP from their middle infielders than about his abilities.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 02:38 PM
There's no bones about it, Keppinger is among the best contact hitters in all of baseball. I don't think that should be up for debate.

In 2007, Keppinger was 5th in Contact%, behind, Castillo, Eckstein, Polanco, and Pierre.
In 2008, Keppinger is 5th again, behind Izturis, Pierre, Castillo, and Theriot.

That's not luck. That's a legitimate skill that's repeatable and projectable. Defensively, he's stretched big time as a SS. Offensively, he's just mediocre as a 3B. But put him at 2B, and I see Placidco Polanco clone. Everything in his major and minor league career suggests as much. His lack of opportunity at the major league level says more about teams overvaluing speed and undervaluing OBP from their middle infielders than about his abilities.


All those players you mentioned have played more than 1 full season of Baseball...

Let me know when Kepp has put together 2-3 years of 140-150 Games... and had 550-625 AB's a year...

Because he may be a good contact hitter... but lets let him do it year in and year out for "Full" years... Before we start ranking him against other hitters who have done it over 150 + games and 500-600 Ab's over their careers...

RedsManRick
06-09-2008, 03:02 PM
All those players you mentioned have played more than 1 full season of Baseball...

Let me know when Kepp has put together 2-3 years of 140-150 Games... and had 550-625 AB's a year...

Because he may be a good contact hitter... but lets let him do it year in and year out for "Full" years... Before we start ranking him against other hitters who have done it over 150 + games and 500-600 Ab's over their careers...

I don't understand your point. Keppinger has over 3000 professional plate apperances across the minor and major leagues. Yes, he has not accumulated over 500 PA in a single major league season. But I fail to see your implication. Do you think Keppinger is going to wear down, dragging his performance with it? That he's a fluke and won't be able to sustain his abilities? I agree, more playing time will continue to clarify exactly what to expect, but he's done nothing to suggest what he's done so far is not indicative of what he's likely to do in the future. And we have no reason to believe that there's an underlying durability issue at play.

In 2007, in addition to his 241 AB in Cincy, he hit .368/.424/.469 over 228 AB in Louisville. He has over 2000 minor league AB in which he's hit a collective .320/.373/.419. In his 565 major league at bats he's hit .313/.368/.441. So unless you have a specific reason to believe he's not capable of sustaining that level of performance -- or health, I just don't get your point.

texasdave
06-09-2008, 03:12 PM
All Jeff Keppinger did was hit in the minors. Aside from his first season when he hit .276, he has hit .300 or better everywhere he has been. That has been for seven different teams in five different leagues. That has been for as few as 12 AB at a stop to as many as 450 AB at a stop. Same results everytime - .300 or better. In 2146 minor league ABs he has struck out just 137 times - or one every 15.7 ABs. Someone puts a gun to my head and says pick over or under .300 for Keppinger, I am picking over every time.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 03:17 PM
You guys are talking about Minor league career numbers? How many players have failed to transition from the minors to the majors...

And RedsmanRick, 3000 Pro plate appearances? Proffesional?> We all know he can hit, and he's a contact hitter? So what... HE hasn't done it year after year in the major leagues.... You come with me at 3000 Proffesional Plate apperances...

With all due Respect... Give me a Break.

Homer Bailey
06-09-2008, 03:20 PM
You guys are talking about Minor league career numbers? How many players have failed to transition from the minors to the majors...

And RedsmanRick, 3000 Pro plate appearances? Proffesional?> We all know he can hit, and he's a contact hitter? So what... HE hasn't done it year after year in the major leagues.... You come with me at 3000 Proffesional Plate apperances...

With all due Respect... Give me a Break.

He has proven at every level that he can hit! If he came up and his numbers did not compare to his minor league numbers, then you could call him a AAAA player. However, his numbers have translated very well to the pros, and it is hard to call it a small sample size. He is the type of hitter this team needs at the top of the order.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 03:26 PM
Ok listen, or read... I am about done with this...

I am not saying jeff Keppinger cannot Hit... or is not a contact Hitter...

What I am saying is, he is a PART TIME PLAYER... Role Player... Bench Player...

And he hasn't put together a Full Major league season at all yet to go off...

He put up 241 AB's last year... ok... Not saying he can't hit...

But I don't rely on him to be my flipping OFFENSE

bucksfan2
06-09-2008, 03:38 PM
Ok listen, or read... I am about done with this...

I am not saying jeff Keppinger cannot Hit... or is not a contact Hitter...

What I am saying is, he is a PART TIME PLAYER... Role Player... Bench Player...

And he hasn't put together a Full Major league season at all yet to go off...

He put up 241 AB's last year... ok... Not saying he can't hit...

But I don't rely on him to be my flipping OFFENSE

Not every player on your team is going to be an all star. I don't get your assertion that Keppinger is not better than a PART TIME PLAYER. His major league career, albiet short, has pretty much followed what he did in the minors.

I am curious as to WHY you think he is a part time player. I am also curious as to why you think a guy who is going to hit and hit often doesn't deserve a chance to play every day. Is it because he doesn't hit 40 HRs a season?

No one is asking him to be your "flipping OFFENSE". No one person is responsible for the offense. Keppinger and his hitting style is a very very important part of the Reds offense.

mth123
06-09-2008, 04:06 PM
Ok listen, or read... I am about done with this...

I am not saying jeff Keppinger cannot Hit... or is not a contact Hitter...

What I am saying is, he is a PART TIME PLAYER... Role Player... Bench Player...

And he hasn't put together a Full Major league season at all yet to go off...

He put up 241 AB's last year... ok... Not saying he can't hit...

But I don't rely on him to be my flipping OFFENSE

I agree that Jeff Keppinger is a role player. I don't expect him to ever make an all star team. As a SS, offensively his numbers look pretty good. As a 3B, his lack of power would probably put him in the lower 3rd of starting 3B in the majors. But....

... The role he can fill as a steady if not spectacular line-up presence who gets on base enough to lead-off while filling the 3B position adequately defensively is a role this team can use. If it allows EdE to be the centerpeice of a deal for a long-term solution in CF or at SS, then the team as a whole is much improved. Keppinger joins the Griffey, Dunn, and sometimes EdE and Votto group that forces the team to forsake defense in order to get offense in the line-up. There is too much of that. Moving him to 3B allows adequate defense with adequate offense at that position and opens SS for a better defensive alternative and make EdE expendable to acquire it. I think the team is better with a glove at SS who can hit a little and a 3B who is adequate an offense and defense than it is witha range challenged Kepp at SS and an erratic (offensively and defensively) but proise filled EdE at 3B.

Sometimes to make the pieces fit you have to forego everything you want. I'd love to see EdE put it all together in Cincy, but the need for Kepp at the top of the order, the need for improved defense at SS, the organizational depth at 3B and the need to acquire more two way players suggest that the potential of EdE is best cashed in for a different position while choosing a fall back option that fills a needed role in his place at 3B.

RedsManRick
06-09-2008, 04:29 PM
Ok listen, or read... I am about done with this...

I am not saying jeff Keppinger cannot Hit... or is not a contact Hitter...

What I am saying is, he is a PART TIME PLAYER... Role Player... Bench Player...

And he hasn't put together a Full Major league season at all yet to go off...

He put up 241 AB's last year... ok... Not saying he can't hit...

But I don't rely on him to be my flipping OFFENSE

First off all, get a hold of yourself buddy. I know message boards can be frustrating, but a little patience goes a long ways.

Secondly, you seem to be making one of two arguments, one of which is circular, the other of which is not based in facts.

One argument, which you seem to have made in your most recent post, is that because Keppinger has not ever been given 500+ PA in a single season at the major league level, that he is a part time player. As a definitional argument, I suppose one can't disagree. But prior usage patterns are hardly a good way to judge worthiness or else nobody could ever be a full time player because they would have had to be one first... an obvious ontological problem.

However, if you mean to suggest that Keppinger does not play baseball well enough to merit a full time starter job, then I disagree with this assessment. You cite Bako and Hairston's inflated batting averages over a short period fo time. Yet both of these guys have substantial track records establishing a much lower level of performance, which suggests that their brief hot streaks were just that, temporary hot streaks. Keppinger has a track record of over 2200 minor league and 600 major league plate appearances suggesting that the performances we've seen from him are completely sustainable and founded in a pretty rare skill set.

And given that, we can compare offensive his performance (.313/.368/.441) to players with similar skill sets and performance records to find comparable players, like Michael Young (.303/.348/.448, poor SS defense), Placido Polanco (.304/.349/.414, good 2B D), and Freddy Sanchez (.301/.339/.417, good 2B/3B D), and Mark Loretta (.297/.362/.399, good 2B/3B D, weak SS D).

For reference, here are the average SS, 2B and 3B from 2007 and 2008:


Pos Year BA OBP SLG OPS
SS 2008 .263 .319 .375 .694
SS 2007 .274 .336 .418 .734

2B 2008 .266 .332 .398 .730
2B 2007 .277 .339 .417 .756

3B 2008 .267 .338 .437 .774
3B 2007 .273 .341 .442 .782

Jeff Keppinger is a major league starting caliber 2B, without question. At SS, his bat is significantly above average, even if his defense is somewhat below. At 3B, where his defense plays better, his bat is merely average.

In any case, I can understand your reticence to compare Keppinger to "established" players, guys who have been given full-time jobs and even made the occasional all-star team. But it's important not to confuse opportunity and recognition with actual ability. Keppinger has been grossly under-utilized over the last 3 or 4 years. It's also importance to understand that there's a significant amount of room between perennial all-star and backup. I understand the particulars of the Reds 25 man roster are such that he might best be utilized in a utility, but that doesn't mean his ability is less than that of a starting major leaguer.

As for "rely(ing) on him to be my flipping OFFENSE", I don't think any single player should relied upon to be your offense. But so far as middle infielders go, Keppinger is better than most. And as far as our current 3B options go, EE isn't exactly lighting the world on fire. Nobody is saying that Keppinger should make $10M and bat cleanup - that clearly belongs the offensive dynamo Brandon Phillips (holder of an .807 OPS).

Hondo
06-09-2008, 04:51 PM
First off all, get a hold of yourself buddy. I know message boards can be frustrating, but a little patience goes a long ways.

Secondly, you seem to be making one of two arguments, one of which is circular, the other of which is not based in facts.

One argument, which you seem to have made in your most recent post, is that because Keppinger has not ever been given 500+ PA in a single season at the major league level, that he is a part time player. As a definitional argument, I suppose one can't disagree. But prior usage patterns are hardly a good way to judge worthiness or else nobody could ever be a full time player because they would have had to be one first... an obvious ontological problem.

However, if you mean to suggest that Keppinger does not play baseball well enough to merit a full time starter job, then I disagree with this assessment. You cite Bako and Hairston's inflated batting averages over a short period fo time. Yet both of these guys have substantial track records establishing a much lower level of performance, which suggests that their brief hot streaks were just that, temporary hot streaks. Keppinger has a track record of over 2200 minor league and 600 major league plate appearances suggesting that the performances we've seen from him are completely sustainable and founded in a pretty rare skill set.

And given that, we can compare offensive his performance (.313/.368/.441) to players with similar skill sets and performance records to find comparable players, like Michael Young (.303/.348/.448, poor SS defense), Placido Polanco (.304/.349/.414, good 2B D), and Freddy Sanchez (.301/.339/.417, good 2B/3B D), and Mark Loretta (.297/.362/.399, good 2B/3B D, weak SS D).

For reference, here are the average SS, 2B and 3B from 2007 and 2008:


Pos Year BA OBP SLG OPS
SS 2008 .263 .319 .375 .694
SS 2007 .274 .336 .418 .734

2B 2008 .266 .332 .398 .730
2B 2007 .277 .339 .417 .756

3B 2008 .267 .338 .437 .774
3B 2007 .273 .341 .442 .782

Jeff Keppinger is a major league starting caliber 2B, without question. At SS, his bat is significantly above average, even if his defense is somewhat below. At 3B, where his defense plays better, his bat is merely average.

In any case, I can understand your reticence to compare Keppinger to "established" players, guys who have been given full-time jobs and even made the occasional all-star team. But it's important not to confuse opportunity and recognition with actual ability. Keppinger has been grossly under-utilized over the last 3 or 4 years. It's also importance to understand that there's a significant amount of room between perennial all-star and backup. I understand the particulars of the Reds 25 man roster are such that he might best be utilized in a utility, but that doesn't mean his ability is less than that of a starting major leaguer.

I don't want to debate this the rest of the year, but... listen, read, do what ya have to do... I am not tryin to be rude or anything...

But you just broke out some STATS for guys who have been getting FULL major league years in... The only guy who comes close to being part timer is Loretta and even he has been mostly a starter throughout his career...

You don't have to break out anymore charts or Levels or anything else...

Jeff Keppinger is a back up, utility Infielder...

Michael Young is a Stud offensive player who you compared Kepp too... Not even in the same Realm.

Keppinger is a contact hitter, yes... He has a .313 average over 161 games...

He is not a starter... Now, I am not saying he can't play 140 games for a team... He just isn't what you guys are saying...

Jeff Keppinger is what he is... A good player. Not flashy, just a good player... He's just not an everyday player... Opportunity or not... 3,000 Proffesional AB's or not... He is never going to be the guy you all claim he is...

He is just Jeff Keppinger. Oh, and when he puts together back to back .400 ob% - .300-15-80- 100 run- 200 hit (185 I'll give ya) 40 double seasons...

Then you are correct and I am wrong... He can even bat.296 one year with 14 homers and 69 RBI and I will concede... Until then, when he compiles a couple FULL major league seasons of Productive numbers... Then I will concede... Jeff Keppinger hasn't even done it over 1 full major league season... I am not arguing it anymore... No matter how many graphs or stats you break out... They don't contain relevant information...

RedsManRick
06-09-2008, 05:03 PM
I don't want to debate this the rest of the year, but... listen, read, do what ya have to do... I am not tryin to be rude or anything...

But you just broke out some STATS for guys who have been getting FULL major league years in... The only guy who comes close to being part timer is Loretta and even he has been mostly a starter throughout his career...

You don't have to break out anymore charts or Levels or anything else...

Jeff Keppinger is a back up, utility Infielder...

Michael Young is a Stud offensive player who you compared Kepp too... Not even in the same Realm.

Keppinger is a contact hitter, yes... He has a .313 average over 161 games...

He is not a starter... Now, I am not saying he can't play 140 games for a team... He just isn't what you guys are saying...

Jeff Keppinger is what he is... A good player. Not flashy, just a good player... He's just not an everyday player... Opportunity or not... 3,000 Proffesional AB's or not... He is never going to be the guy you all claim he is...

He is just Jeff Keppinger. Oh, and when he puts together back to back .400 ob% - .300-15-80- 100 run- 200 hit (185 I'll give ya) 40 double seasons...

Then you are correct and I am wrong... He can even bat.296 one year with 14 homers and 69 RBI and I will concede... Until then, when he compiles a couple FULL major league seasons of Productive numbers... Then I will concede... Jeff Keppinger hasn't even done it over 1 full major league season... I am not arguing it anymore... No matter how many graphs or stats you break out... They don't contain relevant information...

Wow. Just wow. Clearly logic wasn't the way to go. You are saying that until he does it, he's not capable of doing it. I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Playing time and performance/ability are not the same thing. We'll have to agree to disagree. I'll just let it drop.

dougdirt
06-09-2008, 05:14 PM
I don't want to debate this the rest of the year, but... listen, read, do what ya have to do... I am not tryin to be rude or anything...

But you just broke out some STATS for guys who have been getting FULL major league years in... The only guy who comes close to being part timer is Loretta and even he has been mostly a starter throughout his career...

You don't have to break out anymore charts or Levels or anything else...

Jeff Keppinger is a back up, utility Infielder...

Michael Young is a Stud offensive player who you compared Kepp too... Not even in the same Realm.

Keppinger is a contact hitter, yes... He has a .313 average over 161 games...

He is not a starter... Now, I am not saying he can't play 140 games for a team... He just isn't what you guys are saying...

Jeff Keppinger is what he is... A good player. Not flashy, just a good player... He's just not an everyday player... Opportunity or not... 3,000 Proffesional AB's or not... He is never going to be the guy you all claim he is...

He is just Jeff Keppinger. Oh, and when he puts together back to back .400 ob% - .300-15-80- 100 run- 200 hit (185 I'll give ya) 40 double seasons...

Then you are correct and I am wrong... He can even bat.296 one year with 14 homers and 69 RBI and I will concede... Until then, when he compiles a couple FULL major league seasons of Productive numbers... Then I will concede... Jeff Keppinger hasn't even done it over 1 full major league season... I am not arguing it anymore... No matter how many graphs or stats you break out... They don't contain relevant information...

So a guy has to be an all star to be an every day player? Guys that go .300/.400 with 15 HR, 80 RBI, 100 runs, 200 hits and 40 doubles, well those guys are very rare.

That player is so rare that it has been done all of 5 times since 2000. Todd Helton (twice), Albert Pujols, Magglio Ordonez and Matt Holiday. Thats it. Pretty steep expectations don't you think?

Hondo
06-09-2008, 05:43 PM
Wow. Just wow. Clearly logic wasn't the way to go. You are saying that until he does it, he's not capable of doing it. I'm sorry, but that's wrong. Playing time and performance/ability are not the same thing. We'll have to agree to disagree. I'll just let it drop.

Logic has nothing to do with your point of Jeff Keppinger...

I don't want to make you think I am a jerk and I hope you aren't taking offense to what I am posting... But Logic?

Jeff Keppinger hasn't done what you say he is capable of doing...

So Logic has nothing to do with it...

dougdirt
06-09-2008, 05:45 PM
Logic has nothing to do with your point of Jeff Keppinger...

I don't want to make you think I am a jerk and I hope you aren't taking offense to what I am posting... But Logic?

Jeff Keppinger hasn't done what you say he is capable of doing...

So Logic has nothing to do with it...

Well I have never built a website about the Dodgers, but my past history would certainly suggest that I could do it.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 05:47 PM
So a guy has to be an all star to be an every day player? Guys that go .300/.400 with 15 HR, 80 RBI, 100 runs, 200 hits and 40 doubles, well those guys are very rare.

That player is so rare that it has been done all of 5 times since 2000. Todd Helton (twice), Albert Pujols, Magglio Ordonez and Matt Holiday. Thats it. Pretty steep expectations don't you think?


A player doesn't have to be an All-Star to be an everyday player...

And I apologize if you think that I think Kepp must go .300/.400 15-80- 100 runs-200 hits 40 doubles to be worthy of anything...

He doesn't have to accomplish those exact numbers to change my mind...

My point is he hasn't even had a full major league season to go off... He has 1/2 of 1 season, last year... And if really wasnt a half... more like almost a half... and he has 2 other stints with the Mets and Royals...

If you want Jeff out there 150 times a year starting... More power to ya...

I'd rather have a better player... IMO Jeff Keppinger is a back up.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 05:49 PM
Well I have never built a website about the Dodgers, but my past history would certainly suggest that I could do it.

What?

dougdirt
06-09-2008, 06:00 PM
What?

Jeff Keppingers past history suggest he can do these things you say he can't just because he hasn't. My argument was that just because I haven't built a website about the Dodgers doesn't mean I can't when my history in the general area would suggest that I certainly could.

RedsManRick
06-09-2008, 06:11 PM
If you want Jeff out there 150 times a year starting... More power to ya...

I'd rather have a better player... IMO Jeff Keppinger is a back up.

Hondo, I still don't get this. Playing time = Performance? How does the number of at bats he's gotten tell us about how good of a player he is? You seem to be confusing the number of at bats he's gotten with how well he's played.

If he gets more at bats, and continues to play as well as he has played so far, he's basically a small step down from being an all-star caliber player. So if you accept less than an all-star as a starter, then Keppinger is good enough to be a starter. That he hasn't been one yet doesn't change that.

If you are saying that he hasn't performed well enough in the playing time he's been given, well that's a conversation I've addressed twice over. Keppinger, so far in his career, has performed as well as the players who you claim he's not as good as. The only differentiator is that Keppinger has not been given the playing time that they have. If Keppinger was given 700 PA in a season, he'd put up numbers that look an awful lot like Michael Young's. He just hasn't been given the chance. So what exactly could he do to merit a starting job for you?

Hondo
06-09-2008, 06:20 PM
Jeff Keppingers past history suggest he can do these things you say he can't just because he hasn't. My argument was that just because I haven't built a website about the Dodgers doesn't mean I can't when my history in the general area would suggest that I certainly could.

Um, ok... Your ability to build the website and the "unkown" of what Jeff Keppinger can do consistantly over 2-3 Full playing years are so far apart...

It isn't even close to the same thing... Not even...

Go back. Take a deep deep breath. Ponder this... Post me back tommorow...

Hondo
06-09-2008, 06:21 PM
Hondo, I still don't get this. Playing time = Performance? How does the number of at bats he's gotten tell us about how good of a player he is? You seem to be confusing the number of at bats he's gotten with how well he's played.

If he gets more at bats, and continues to play as well as he has played so far, he's basically a small step down from being an all-star caliber player. So if you accept less than an all-star as a starter, then Keppinger is good enough to be a starter. That he hasn't been one yet doesn't change that.

If you are saying that he hasn't performed well enough in the playing time he's been given, well that's a conversation I've addressed twice over. Keppinger, so far in his career, has performed as well as the players who you claim he's not as good as. The only differentiator is that Keppinger has not been given the playing time that they have. If Keppinger was given 700 PA in a season, he'd put up numbers that look an awful lot like Michael Young's. He just hasn't been given the chance. So what exactly could he do to merit a starting job for you?

Wrong. Let him play and get the 500-600 AB's or 700 PA's before you sit there and tell me he is a full time player... Then you will find out his performance... Then he has to do it again, and be consistant over 140-162 Games a year...

He is a back up.

dougdirt
06-09-2008, 06:27 PM
Um, ok... Your ability to build the website and the "unkown" of what Jeff Keppinger can do consistantly over 2-3 Full playing years are so far apart...

It isn't even close to the same thing... Not even...

Go back. Take a deep deep breath. Ponder this... Post me back tommorow...

not really. In both cases one has shown the ability to do such things but neither has actually done it. What makes you think that Keppinger all of a sudden will not be able to hit if he gets to 500-600 AB's in a season?

dougdirt
06-09-2008, 06:33 PM
Wrong. Let him play and get the 500-600 AB's or 700 PA's before you sit there and tell me he is a full time player... Then you will find out his performance... Then he has to do it again, and be consistant over 140-162 Games a year...

He is a back up.
Your logic is really, really flawed. Jay Bruce and Joey Votto aren't full time players either by your logic.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 06:37 PM
Your logic is really, really flawed. Jay Bruce and Joey Votto aren't full time players either by your logic.

My Logic is not flawed my friend.

Votto and Bruce are Young up and coming guys... Kepp is not even a Prospect...

Man, he is a Role Player... A servicable Major Leaguer... Not some Batting Title contender you make him out to be...

OnBaseMachine
06-09-2008, 06:40 PM
Jeff Keppinger has 565 career atbats which is pretty much a full seasons worth of atbats. His statline in those 565 atbats is .313/.368/.441 - .809 OPS. I'd say he's pretty much proving he can be more than a role player.

dougdirt
06-09-2008, 06:40 PM
My Logic is not flawed my friend.

Votto and Bruce are Young up and coming guys... Kepp is not even a Prospect...

Man, he is a Role Player... A servicable Major Leaguer... Not some Batting Title contender you make him out to be...

I never once made him out to be a batting title contender, but while we are at it..... yeah, he could be. Guys with his skillset generally hit for a high average. He will need to qualify for the batting title, but he certainly has the skillset to be one and has shown the ability to hit for a strong average.

As for a role player, maybe he is best suited for that role on our team. However if Brandon Phillips or Chase Utley isn't your starting second baseman, odds are he makes a very strong argument that he should be starting there on nearly every team in the NL.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 07:01 PM
Jeff Keppinger has 565 career atbats which is pretty much a full seasons worth of atbats. His statline in those 565 atbats is .313/.368/.441 - .809 OPS. I'd say he's pretty much proving he can be more than a role player.

That is over parts of 4 seasons...

Hondo
06-09-2008, 07:04 PM
I never once made him out to be a batting title contender, but while we are at it..... yeah, he could be. Guys with his skillset generally hit for a high average. He will need to qualify for the batting title, but he certainly has the skillset to be one and has shown the ability to hit for a strong average.

As for a role player, maybe he is best suited for that role on our team. However if Brandon Phillips or Chase Utley isn't your starting second baseman, odds are he makes a very strong argument that he should be starting there on nearly every team in the NL.

Ok, If Jeff Keppinger is your starting 2nd baseman, you are basically buying a Taurus to Drive and showing the rest of the world you are giving up...

If Jeff Keppinger gets 550-600 AB's in 1 year...

I bet he'll have a pretty decent OB%... But his stat line is going to be more like .280-.285, 10-12 homers, 65-75 RBI, and he is going to have like 150-160 hits... and thats fine... But I think he is basically a role player for any team...

OnBaseMachine
06-09-2008, 07:06 PM
That is over parts of 4 seasons...

It's still a full seasons worth of atbats in the major leagues.

dougdirt
06-09-2008, 07:10 PM
Ok, If Jeff Keppinger is your starting 2nd baseman, you are basically buying a Taurus to Drive and showing the rest of the world you are giving up...

If Jeff Keppinger gets 550-600 AB's in 1 year...

I bet he'll have a pretty decent OB%... But his stat line is going to be more like .280-.285, 10-12 homers, 65-75 RBI, and he is going to have like 150-160 hits... and thats fine... But I think he is basically a role player for any team...

Then there are a whole lot of Taurus drivers in baseball. The last 3 seasons guys who hit .285 with 10 HR, 75 RBI and 150 hits is limited to Chase Utley (three times), Jeff Kent, Jorge Cantu, Robinson cano (twice), Aaron Hill, Brandon Phillips and Freddy Sanchez. It seems like you have a preconceived notion about what an every day second baseman puts up in the stat line that is pretty offbase for what an actual every day second baseman does indeed put up.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 07:18 PM
Then there are a whole lot of Taurus drivers in baseball. The last 3 seasons guys who hit .285 with 10 HR, 75 RBI and 150 hits is limited to Chase Utley (three times), Jeff Kent, Jorge Cantu, Robinson cano (twice), Aaron Hill, Brandon Phillips and Freddy Sanchez. It seems like you have a preconceived notion about what an every day second baseman puts up in the stat line that is pretty offbase for what an actual every day second baseman does indeed put up.


Yet Keppinger has done neither...

I am not saying Jeff Keppinger could not start... Physically.

I am saying that he will not produce .324 or .313 over a full grinding season of 150 starts and 600-700 PA's...

The players you mentioned, ok thats fine... Even though there over all numbers were superior to the ones I listed... The Guy, Kepp is a Back up at best... I don't care if you go back in to the early 1970's of stats for people who hit .275-14-61-10steals 28 doubles 3 triples 68 runs - 152 hits and had an ob% of .359 and averaged that over 7 seasons...

Kepp is a back up. Face it.

Yet you will probably go dig up another 6 players who went .275-14-61-10 and list them out...

Is Hariston a Starter? No Keppinger isn't either... He is getting AB's due to injuries and making the most out of them... and I applaud him for it, and I am happy he is helping the Reds... But I am not in the group who think you start or build around Jeff Keppinger...

I wonder, I bet you are one of those guys who doesn't think this team needs to resign Dunn to a LTC...

Mario-Rijo
06-09-2008, 07:22 PM
That is over parts of 4 seasons...

I think what their saying Hondo is that Keppinger displays a skillset which lends itself to the belief that the #'s aren't a mirage. In other words he's not necc. benefitting from a great deal of luck to make a body of work but skill. And if you agree that his skillset is starter level then he is in fact a starter for some team. And his defense could be acceptable at 2B if/when he learns better positioning to make up for a sizable lack of range, assuming he continues to hit like he has.

I think he could be a solid 2B but I don't quite know if he could be quite to the level of Michael Young's bat, but given his skills it's not out of the range of possibility I would presume. At least in this park or one like it.

dougdirt
06-09-2008, 07:34 PM
Yet Keppinger has done neither...

I am not saying Jeff Keppinger could not start... Physically.

I am saying that he will not produce .324 or .313 over a full grinding season of 150 starts and 600-700 PA's...

The players you mentioned, ok thats fine... Even though there over all numbers were superior to the ones I listed... The Guy, Kepp is a Back up at best... I don't care if you go back in to the early 1970's of stats for people who hit .275-14-61-10steals 28 doubles 3 triples 68 runs - 152 hits and had an ob% of .359 and averaged that over 7 seasons...

Kepp is a back up. Face it.

Yet you will probably go dig up another 6 players who went .275-14-61-10 and list them out...

Is Hariston a Starter? No Keppinger isn't either... He is getting AB's due to injuries and making the most out of them... and I applaud him for it, and I am happy he is helping the Reds... But I am not in the group who think you start or build around Jeff Keppinger...

I wonder, I bet you are one of those guys who doesn't think this team needs to resign Dunn to a LTC...

Hairstons record of being as good as he is showing right now isn't long at all. Keppingers is. Big difference.

As for my listing of the stats of 2B with those stats, I am not finding a specific number of guys, I am simply throwing the numbers you suggest into a program and finding guys with at least those numbers. Do you build around Keppinger? I wouldn't build around him, but that certainly doesn't mean he shouldn't be a starter on the team. I wouldn't build around anyone on our team not named Bruce right now, because guys to build around are guys that are untouchable. Maybe add Volquez to that. But that doesn't mean the other guys aren't valuable pieces or every day players.

As for not wanting to resign Dunn.... not that it has anything to do with this topic, but it depends what he wants and his willingness to play first base.

SMcGavin
06-09-2008, 08:28 PM
Yet Keppinger has done neither...

I am not saying Jeff Keppinger could not start... Physically.

I am saying that he will not produce .324 or .313 over a full grinding season of 150 starts and 600-700 PA's...

The players you mentioned, ok thats fine... Even though there over all numbers were superior to the ones I listed... The Guy, Kepp is a Back up at best... I don't care if you go back in to the early 1970's of stats for people who hit .275-14-61-10steals 28 doubles 3 triples 68 runs - 152 hits and had an ob% of .359 and averaged that over 7 seasons...

Kepp is a back up. Face it.

Yet you will probably go dig up another 6 players who went .275-14-61-10 and list them out...

Is Hariston a Starter? No Keppinger isn't either... He is getting AB's due to injuries and making the most out of them... and I applaud him for it, and I am happy he is helping the Reds... But I am not in the group who think you start or build around Jeff Keppinger...

I wonder, I bet you are one of those guys who doesn't think this team needs to resign Dunn to a LTC...

You know what's an awesome debating technique? When somebody makes an argument against you using statistics, and you either don't want to or can't make a retort against those statistics, just keep repeating your main point over and over until the other person gives in and believes you. Works like a charm.

Hondo
06-09-2008, 10:31 PM
You know what's an awesome debating technique? When somebody makes an argument against you using statistics, and you either don't want to or can't make a retort against those statistics, just keep repeating your main point over and over until the other person gives in and believes you. Works like a charm.

Dude, the statistics don't mean anything in this case... He has no proven track record other than a very small sample size... I did make a "retort", and they are doing the exact thing you say I am doing back to them...

You sir are "priceless"

Superdude
06-10-2008, 12:46 AM
He has no proven track record other than a very small sample size

He's had 389 at bats since joining the Reds. That's not a huge sample size, but a pretty good chunk. And it's not like he's lucked into that .320+ batting average. The guy has kept a contact percentage in Tony Gwynn territory the last two years. If you're saying he's not durable enough to hit like that for a full year, then maybe you're right, but it's becoming hard to deny that Keppinger is one of the better contact hitters in the game right now.

bucksfan2
06-10-2008, 08:54 AM
Yet Keppinger has done neither...

I am not saying Jeff Keppinger could not start... Physically.

I am saying that he will not produce .324 or .313 over a full grinding season of 150 starts and 600-700 PA's...

The players you mentioned, ok thats fine... Even though there over all numbers were superior to the ones I listed... The Guy, Kepp is a Back up at best... I don't care if you go back in to the early 1970's of stats for people who hit .275-14-61-10steals 28 doubles 3 triples 68 runs - 152 hits and had an ob% of .359 and averaged that over 7 seasons...

Kepp is a back up. Face it.

Yet you will probably go dig up another 6 players who went .275-14-61-10 and list them out...

Is Hariston a Starter? No Keppinger isn't either... He is getting AB's due to injuries and making the most out of them... and I applaud him for it, and I am happy he is helping the Reds... But I am not in the group who think you start or build around Jeff Keppinger...

I wonder, I bet you are one of those guys who doesn't think this team needs to resign Dunn to a LTC...

Hondo I am confused by your logic in this debate. It seems to me you have a gruge or a personal bias against Keppinger. Fair enough we all have them in sports.

I think the way you should argue in this debate isn't saying "Keppinger is a backup at best" rather "I don't think Keppinger is a full time player". The logic you use in this debate is that Keppinger isn't a full time player because he hasn't done it before but when give the playing time he has only dispelled this notion.

Keppinger has done nothing but come up to the majors and hit. He has lived up to his minor league numbers and then some. He has done nothing so far in his career to show that he can't handle playing every day.

Not every player on you club is going to be allstar caliber. Is Keppinger the best SS or 3B or 2B in the league? No. However is Keppinger one of the best 8 everyday players the reds have on their current roster? I say yes. Keppinger provides a unique skill set that no one else on the reds does. He is a contact hitter with gap power. He is going to hit line drives and put the ball in play more often than not. He probably won't put up huge RBI numbers but at the same time those RBI guys may not be able to hit with the consistancy that Keppinger has. Give me a guy with a line of 313/.368/.441 and I will gladly put him in the lineup every day.

Steve4192
06-10-2008, 12:45 PM
Holy Thread Hijacking Batman!!!!!

How did a Yonder Alonso thread devolve into this mess?

Hondo
06-10-2008, 02:02 PM
Hondo I am confused by your logic in this debate. It seems to me you have a gruge or a personal bias against Keppinger. Fair enough we all have them in sports.

I think the way you should argue in this debate isn't saying "Keppinger is a backup at best" rather "I don't think Keppinger is a full time player". The logic you use in this debate is that Keppinger isn't a full time player because he hasn't done it before but when give the playing time he has only dispelled this notion.

Keppinger has done nothing but come up to the majors and hit. He has lived up to his minor league numbers and then some. He has done nothing so far in his career to show that he can't handle playing every day.

Not every player on you club is going to be allstar caliber. Is Keppinger the best SS or 3B or 2B in the league? No. However is Keppinger one of the best 8 everyday players the reds have on their current roster? I say yes. Keppinger provides a unique skill set that no one else on the reds does. He is a contact hitter with gap power. He is going to hit line drives and put the ball in play more often than not. He probably won't put up huge RBI numbers but at the same time those RBI guys may not be able to hit with the consistancy that Keppinger has. Give me a guy with a line of 313/.368/.441 and I will gladly put him in the lineup every day.

"I don't think Keppinger is a full time player"

Ok, There ya go...

Also, I don't have a personal grudge against Kepp, not at all... As I have stated he is a fine hitter... He is just not all that and a box of rocks.

SMcGavin
06-10-2008, 02:47 PM
Holy Thread Hijacking Batman!!!!!

How did a Yonder Alonso thread devolve into this mess?

Alonso was also a backup catcher when he came to UM. I'm sure he would be a disaster in the field but how awesome would his bat be behind the plate?

Lockdwn11
06-22-2008, 03:00 PM
.280-.285, 10-12 homers, 65-75 RBI, and he is going to have like 150-160 hits... and thats a roll player? I think just about every team would take those stats from thier EVEYDAY middle infielder

Hondo
06-22-2008, 03:32 PM
.280-.285, 10-12 homers, 65-75 RBI, and he is going to have like 150-160 hits... and thats a roll player? I think just about every team would take those stats from thier EVEYDAY middle infielder

So, do you wanna Debate all my Posts?

TN Red Fan
06-22-2008, 09:25 PM
That is over parts of 4 seasons...

Doesn't matter. It's a significant enough sample size to make a judgement. The fact that he's done it over 4 years only shows that he's been consistant. That's a good thing. A player that puts those numbers up for one year might be a fluke.

Keppinger hit well in the minors.
He's hit well in the majors.
His major league sample size is significant
He's hit well consistantly over a number of years.

Note that all this is a sharp contrast to, say, Hairston, who's never hit before this year in the majors or the minors, so he can be fairly considered a fluke.

The bottom line is that there's no reason to doubt that Keppinger can hit at about the same clip he hit this year and last year. And not only is there no reason to doubt it, there's no evidence to support the idea that he can't replicate it.

Sorry to say it, but you're thinking in Dusty Baker logic. "Keppinger is a role player, well, just because..."

LoganBuck
06-22-2008, 11:16 PM
I checked this thread again to see if there was any Yonder news. A stupid mistake on my part.

Hondo
06-23-2008, 06:37 PM
Doesn't matter. It's a significant enough sample size to make a judgement. The fact that he's done it over 4 years only shows that he's been consistant. That's a good thing. A player that puts those numbers up for one year might be a fluke.

Keppinger hit well in the minors.
He's hit well in the majors.
His major league sample size is significant
He's hit well consistantly over a number of years.

Note that all this is a sharp contrast to, say, Hairston, who's never hit before this year in the majors or the minors, so he can be fairly considered a fluke.

The bottom line is that there's no reason to doubt that Keppinger can hit at about the same clip he hit this year and last year. And not only is there no reason to doubt it, there's no evidence to support the idea that he can't replicate it.

Sorry to say it, but you're thinking in Dusty Baker logic. "Keppinger is a role player, well, just because..."


I am not thinking Dusty Baker logic... You just said that a guy has a one year fluke... he is considered not a full timer...

But your assessment of Kepp is that over parts of 4 seasons, he hasn't even had a chance to become a 1 year fluke...

You are almost proving my point for me...

Here's another point... I don't think kepp is a"bad" player... I just don't put as much reliance in him as most of you do who support him... I feel, IMO, Jeff Keppinger is a back up player... and until he produces 2-3 quality season in consecutive years... He is just what he is... A good contact hitter but nothing to hang your season on...

I don't know any more facts I can bring up. The guy hasn't played a full season yet to date... It is simple.

Blitz Dorsey
06-23-2008, 06:39 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if they try Yonder at 3rd either... I would be shocked.

Homer Bailey
06-23-2008, 06:45 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if they try Yonder at 3rd either... I would be shocked.

I'd be numbingly stunned.