PDA

View Full Version : Cordero: we are lucky to have him.



Wheelhouse
06-08-2008, 01:31 AM
Cordero's signing came up in the post game discussion tonight after the tough loss, and I feel it merits its own thread. Look at Cordero's record this year. Three blown saves. One was Ross' first home run in Cincy, which the Reds did not lose, nonetheless it was a blown save. The other was in San Diego where he was asked to pitch two innings, unusual for a closer. I guess he won't get any slack there. And tonight against Ross again. Maybe Cody just has his number. But other than these three games, Cordero has been tremendous. He's also pitched several times in non-save situations and held for the Reds. Career-wise his strikeout to walk ratio is spectacular. He was throwing 97 MPH tonight (!), and there's talk on the board of him "slowing down" or aging. Come on! It hurt me just as much as anyone else, but I accept this loss as one of several that will happen to the best of teams every year. And, I just have to tip my hat to Cody Ross.

WVRedsFan
06-08-2008, 02:19 AM
Cordero's signing came up in the post game discussion tonight after the tough loss, and I feel it merits its own thread. Look at Cordero's record this year. Three blown saves. One was Ross' first home run in Cincy, which the Reds did not lose, nonetheless it was a blown save. The other was in San Diego where he was asked to pitch two innings, unusual for a closer. I guess he won't get any slack there. And tonight against Ross again. Maybe Cody just has his number. But other than these three games, Cordero has been tremendous. He's also pitched several times in non-save situations and held for the Reds. Career-wise his strikeout to walk ratio is spectacular. He was throwing 97 MPH tonight (!), and there's talk on the board of him "slowing down" or aging. Come on! It hurt me just as much as anyone else, but I accept this loss as one of several that will happen to the best of teams every year. And, I just have to tip my hat to Cody Ross.

Of course, you are right. Blown saves hurt us, but I imagine they hurt the guy who blows the save even more.

I guess what is frustrating to most Reds fans is the litany of those who were let go by this organization being successful other places. Sure, you can look at those who are not successful who were let go in the same light, but tonight, Cantu, a poor fielding infielder with a potent right handed bat was let go in favor of lefty Scott Hatteberg. The result is Cantu tatooing our pitching. Cody Freaking Ross was let go only to tatoo Reds pitching. It's frustrating. We needed a right handed bat and two guys, arguably bench players on our team, take us to school on run production when we need right handed hitting. It's tough to take.

Cordero will be better more often than not and he will be an asset, but many look at the price tag (as is Cincinnati's custom) and expect miracles. He's human and wil screw up once in awhile. Tonight was one of those times. Especialy when players who have something to prove are batting against him.

The Baumer
06-08-2008, 02:23 AM
Blown saves happen.

GAC
06-08-2008, 07:13 AM
I guess what is frustrating to most Reds fans is the litany of those who were let go by this organization being successful other places. Sure, you can look at those who are not successful who were let go in the same light, but tonight, Cantu, a poor fielding infielder with a potent right handed bat was let go in favor of lefty Scott Hatteberg. The result is Cantu tatooing our pitching. Cody Freaking Ross was let go only to tatoo Reds pitching. It's frustrating. We needed a right handed bat and two guys, arguably bench players on our team, take us to school on run production when we need right handed hitting. It's tough to take.

Cantu has also had his way with some of the other bottom feeder teams in the NL too, like the Nats, Pitt, and SF. It's not just the Reds.

His numbers at home are impressive. But away, very ho-hum.

But going into this season, where we had EE at 3B, Gonzo at SS, Phillips at 2B, with Kepp slated as that 4th INFer, where was Cantu going to play in this INF when the guy made it known that he wanted to play (start) every day, and had no interest whatsoever in sitting the bench in a utility role?

And as far as his defense.... he has limited range/average glove. IMO, he is being miscast at 3B where he already has 12 errors.

Cody Ross? Yeah, foresight is everything and obviously I'd love to have him on this team over a Corey Patterson. But we acquired him in April of '06 and he only got to appear in 2 games because of a lingering finger injury. We traded him a month later to Florida. And he has had groin and hamstring problems, off and on, with the Marlins.

Yes, one asset is he possesses power. But he also has terrible plate discipline (.304 OB%), and struggles vs RHers.


AVG VS.RH VS.LH

Fastballs .257 .234 .294
Curves .189 .167 .231
Sliders .215 .163 .375
Change Ups .279 .308 .267

RedlegJake
06-08-2008, 07:31 AM
Cantu has also had his way with some of the other bottom feeder teams in the NL too, like the Nats, Pitt, and SF. It's not just the Reds.

His numbers at home are impressive. But away, very ho-hum.

But going into this season, where we had EE at 3B, Gonzo at SS, Phillips at 2B, with Kepp slated as that 4th INFer, where was Cantu going to play in this INF when the guy made it known that he wanted to play (start) every day, and had no interest whatsoever in sitting the bench in a utility role?

And as far as his defense.... he has limited range/average glove. IMO, he is being miscast at 3B where he already has 12 errors.

Cody Ross? Yeah, foresight is everything and obviously I'd love to have him on this team over a Corey Patterson. But we acquired him in April of '06 and he only got to appear in 2 games because of a lingering finger injury. We traded him a month later to Florida. And he has had groin and hamstring problems, off and on, with the Marlins.

Yes, one asset is he possesses power. But he also has terrible plate discipline (.304 OB%), and struggles vs RHers.


AVG VS.RH VS.LH

Fastballs .257 .234 .294
Curves .189 .167 .231
Sliders .215 .163 .375
Change Ups .279 .308 .267

Someone who understands these two are NOT the RH bats the Reds need! All the crying about defense and some want Cantu? The guy did not want to be a utility guy and made it clear he'd be unhappy in that role. He is not an adequate defender at any position and makes EE look like Brooks Robinson at third and Votto like Keith Hernandez at first.

Ross would be a decent 4th OFer, his RH power would be nice but he'd be another low OBP power hitter -in other words the "GAB offense" that some complain is the cause of their road scoring woes wouldn't be helped any by Ross.

Highlifeman21
06-08-2008, 09:59 AM
It's probably just me, but I'm hoping Jocketty can flip Cordero for some different pieces near the trading deadline. Some contending team will most likely need a quality bullpen arm, and will have to pony up some players to get Cordero.

If we were a player or two away from being an 85-92 win team, then it would make sense to hang onto Cordero, but we're multiple players away from being that team.

Kc61
06-08-2008, 10:19 AM
It's probably just me, but I'm hoping Jocketty can flip Cordero for some different pieces near the trading deadline. Some contending team will most likely need a quality bullpen arm, and will have to pony up some players to get Cordero.

If we were a player or two away from being an 85-92 win team, then it would make sense to hang onto Cordero, but we're multiple players away from being that team.

On that logic, Jocketty should flip all the highly paid players on the team. Why is Cordero any different than Harang, Dunn, Griffey, Arroyo, Phillips, or anyone who is paid a meaningful wage? If it's because he's a reliever, I think we've seen what happens when you have a bullpen of kids and retreads. It would be a major step back. If Reds plan to win soon, they can't flip all their veteran assets for minor leaguers. They need good vets and good kids.

Last night was brutal but the Marlins have been losing a lot of close games and they were due for a win like that, especially at home. The loss was upsetting and Cordero pitched poorly but if the Reds can win the next two it will turn out all right. They should win today with Harang against a AA guy.

As for Cordero, he's been good, not great so far, but the season is still young. Let's see his numbers in September before reaching any conclusions.

Degenerate39
06-08-2008, 10:43 AM
I know there were some people going crazy in the gamethread about him blowing the save but I'd rather see him get 46 million bucks than ever see Weathers be the closer again.

Highlifeman21
06-08-2008, 12:00 PM
On that logic, Jocketty should flip all the highly paid players on the team. Why is Cordero any different than Harang, Dunn, Griffey, Arroyo, Phillips, or anyone who is paid a meaningful wage? If it's because he's a reliever, I think we've seen what happens when you have a bullpen of kids and retreads. It would be a major step back. If Reds plan to win soon, they can't flip all their veteran assets for minor leaguers. They need good vets and good kids.

Last night was brutal but the Marlins have been losing a lot of close games and they were due for a win like that, especially at home. The loss was upsetting and Cordero pitched poorly but if the Reds can win the next two it will turn out all right. They should win today with Harang against a AA guy.

As for Cordero, he's been good, not great so far, but the season is still young. Let's see his numbers in September before reaching any conclusions.

It seems to me Cordero is more of a "final piece" kinda move, while the Reds haven't made the necessary preceeding moves.

Of the list you provided, Arroyo and Griffey should also be flipped for different pieces. We're paying Arroyo good coin, and he's a #3 SP at best. He's overpaid based on his performance, IMO. I would think we could spend the money we're paying him more wisely. As for Griffey, he really needs to be traded yesterday.

If Cordero was the last move, it would make sense, but he's not, and it's still a headscratcher as to his signing.

Kc61
06-08-2008, 12:19 PM
It seems to me Cordero is more of a "final piece" kinda move, while the Reds haven't made the necessary preceeding moves.

Of the list you provided, Arroyo and Griffey should also be flipped for different pieces. We're paying Arroyo good coin, and he's a #3 SP at best. He's overpaid based on his performance, IMO. I would think we could spend the money we're paying him more wisely. As for Griffey, he really needs to be traded yesterday.

If Cordero was the last move, it would make sense, but he's not, and it's still a headscratcher as to his signing.

I think this approach is too "fine" about the order of adding pieces. Even if a closer might normally be the last piece, a team can go "out of order" to seize good available players when available.

Rather than look back at the Cordero signing, there is an immediate cross-road ahead with Dunn. He has been the key to the offense and now the Reds will either have to commit a ton of money to him or let him go. If the latter, there will have to be one or two major acquisitions which, I think, is a reason Walt was named GM.

The Cordero signing was a reasonable way to go, but even if you don't agree it's done. There are more pressing issues about to become ripe.

Wheelhouse
06-08-2008, 12:35 PM
Of course, you are right. Blown saves hurt us, but I imagine they hurt the guy who blows the save even more.

I guess what is frustrating to most Reds fans is the litany of those who were let go by this organization being successful other places. Sure, you can look at those who are not successful who were let go in the same light, but tonight, Cantu, a poor fielding infielder with a potent right handed bat was let go in favor of lefty Scott Hatteberg. The result is Cantu tatooing our pitching. Cody Freaking Ross was let go only to tatoo Reds pitching. It's frustrating. We needed a right handed bat and two guys, arguably bench players on our team, take us to school on run production when we need right handed hitting. It's tough to take.

Cordero will be better more often than not and he will be an asset, but many look at the price tag (as is Cincinnati's custom) and expect miracles. He's human and wil screw up once in awhile. Tonight was one of those times. Especialy when players who have something to prove are batting against him.

Totally agreed. And I think Cantu, contrary to some other members, would be the RH bat we need--he has been very productive this year--he would be second on this team in HRs, and third in RBIs, not to mention his ability to play 3B and the OF. Granted he would not have started here, but perhaps he would have. I'm sure the leash on Encarnacion would have been a good deal shorter. This is also a guy who was MVP on a Rays team with Carl Crawford and a productive Rocco Baldelli. Not a flash in the pan IMO. Ross was scouted very highly by Krivsky's people. And we're seing this a good deal these days--the Reds' scouts are considered superb--but the major league team has been a dysfunctional environment where players perform below their ability. So when the Reds let someone go, take a look at him. It esentially is teams taking advantage of the quality of the Reds scouts without paying for it.

WVRedsFan
06-08-2008, 01:03 PM
It's probably just me, but I'm hoping Jocketty can flip Cordero for some different pieces near the trading deadline. Some contending team will most likely need a quality bullpen arm, and will have to pony up some players to get Cordero.

If we were a player or two away from being an 85-92 win team, then it would make sense to hang onto Cordero, but we're multiple players away from being that team.

You and others make a good point here. If the Reds were going into the ninth inning with leads more often, then spend the money. Truth is, we get there once in awhile. Witness his lack of activity during April and most of May. He just didn't get any work because the rest of the team was such a mess. Who do you blame this situation on? You know where I stand on that. We had a guy who threw players on the field without regard of how they would mesh with the team concept. It may take a decade to improve this unless Jocketty has the stones to make the moves that will get this club's roster usable.

Wheelhouse
06-08-2008, 01:17 PM
You and others make a good point here. If the Reds were going into the ninth inning with leads more often, then spend the money. Truth is, we get there once in awhile. Witness his lack of activity during April and most of May. He just didn't get any work because the rest of the team was such a mess. Who do you blame this situation on? You know where I stand on that. We had a guy who threw players on the field without regard of how they would mesh with the team concept. It may take a decade to improve this unless Jocketty has the stones to make the moves that will get this club's roster usable.

Witness the turn around of the Rays, or the Tigers a few years ago. One MUST assume that one will go into the 9th with leads and build with that in mind. I think it's false that this Reds team lacks roster construction. I may be faulty, it may have holes, but I do not think the idea was to throw a bunch of players out there and hope for the best.

edabbs44
06-08-2008, 01:22 PM
It's probably just me, but I'm hoping Jocketty can flip Cordero for some different pieces near the trading deadline. Some contending team will most likely need a quality bullpen arm, and will have to pony up some players to get Cordero.

If we were a player or two away from being an 85-92 win team, then it would make sense to hang onto Cordero, but we're multiple players away from being that team.

Cordero isn't very tradeable right now. And if he were to be traded, the Reds would either have to eat a lot of money or they'd get very little in return.

He probably won't be tradeable until 2010.

*BaseClogger*
06-08-2008, 01:24 PM
Cordero has a full no-trade clause for 08/09...

Wheelhouse
06-08-2008, 01:27 PM
Cordero has a full no-trade clause for 08/09...

Heh. Kind of a key element in this whole discussion.

edabbs44
06-08-2008, 01:28 PM
Cordero has a full no-trade clause for 08/09...

It's called his contract. :)

westofyou
06-08-2008, 01:31 PM
So... Walt will "flip" Cordero because he costs too much?

And he'll just go cheaper

The same Walt Jocketty who signed Izzy to a FA contract in St. Louis? The same one who worked for the A's with Eck?

Doubtful he feels that way.

mbgrayson
06-08-2008, 01:34 PM
Re: Cordero: we are lucky to have him.

I like Coco, I think he is the 'right' kind of guy to be a closer.

That said, luck has nothing to do with it. We were the high bidder; 46 million....that is not luck.

I still think it is not an efficient use of money to pay this much on a long term deal to a closer. I still like the 'Moneyball' approach of finding the right kind of pitcher, putting him in the closer role, and then flipping him in a trade.

Also, there is always not as much difference between 'top flight' closers and retreads. Last year Weathers saved 33 out of 39 games, an 84.6% conversion rate. This year Cordero is now 12 out of 15, an 80% conversion rate.

Closers, other than the elite 3 or 4 in all of MLB, have a short shelf life. There is tremendous turn over year to year in the ranks of closers. A closer can be J.J. Putz one year, and Danny Graves the next. Just too volatile of a commodity to sign a 4 year contract with, IMO.

Also, didn't we give the Brewers our #2 draft pick for Cordero this year?

Highlifeman21
06-08-2008, 01:43 PM
So... Walt will "flip" Cordero because he costs too much?

And he'll just go cheaper

The same Walt Jocketty who signed Izzy to a FA contract in St. Louis? The same one who worked for the A's with Eck?

Doubtful he feels that way.

Cordero's contract doesn't concern me. IMO, he's an unnecessary luxury that we aren't utilizing. As WVRed said, if we were getting Cordero 50+ SV opportunities a year, then he would make sense, but we'll probably be lucky to get Cordero 35+ SV opportunities this year.

In a nutshell, we don't need him, and I bet we could get something more useful to us if we flipped him. Eventually we'll need Cordero, but by the time we will, he'll be much older, and probably less effective.

Wheelhouse
06-08-2008, 01:58 PM
Cordero's contract doesn't concern me. IMO, he's an unnecessary luxury that we aren't utilizing. As WVRed said, if we were getting Cordero 50+ SV opportunities a year, then he would make sense, but we'll probably be lucky to get Cordero 35+ SV opportunities this year.

In a nutshell, we don't need him, and I bet we could get something more useful to us if we flipped him. Eventually we'll need Cordero, but by the time we will, he'll be much older, and probably less effective.

The Reds are a heck of a lot closer than that IMO. I think they are a RH bat and a starter away. The starter may be Homer, and the RH bat may be the effectiveness of Votto and Bruce against lefties. We're close, and Cordero is essential now.

Will M
06-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Is it me or is Cordero a wee bit plump? I know power pitchers often have big frames but he seems a bit to Terry Forsteresque for my liking.

Same with Javy and Weathers.

Highlifeman21
06-08-2008, 02:35 PM
The Reds are a heck of a lot closer than that IMO. I think they are a RH bat and a starter away. The starter may be Homer, and the RH bat may be the effectiveness of Votto and Bruce against lefties. We're close, and Cordero is essential now.

IMO Homer doesn't push us over any competitive edge, and we are an OF and a C, at least, away offensively.

By my estimation, we're 2 SP, 2 MR, an OF and a C away.

WVRedsFan
06-08-2008, 02:50 PM
Witness the turn around of the Rays, or the Tigers a few years ago. One MUST assume that one will go into the 9th with leads and build with that in mind. I think it's false that this Reds team lacks roster construction. I may be faulty, it may have holes, but I do not think the idea was to throw a bunch of players out there and hope for the best.

I agree. I don't think that was the intention, but it ws the result.

There are glaring holes in this roster. If you cannot see that, then there is no use to continue this at all. To refuse to see that is unbelievable.

RedlegJake
06-08-2008, 03:02 PM
I don't think the roster has glaring holes. It has some problems but they are 1 RH bat and a SP away, imo. Right now at 30--33 the Reds, by my count, have played 10 games they could very easily have won -- probably should have won. They could easily have a winning record. To me that points to a team that needs adjustments not tremendous changes. One thing is simply time. Time for Cueto, Bruce, Burton, Votto, Bailey, Janish et al.

REDREAD
06-09-2008, 11:09 AM
Cordero's contract doesn't concern me. IMO, he's an unnecessary luxury that we aren't utilizing. As WVRed said, if we were getting Cordero 50+ SV opportunities a year, then he would make sense, but we'll probably be lucky to get Cordero 35+ SV opportunities this year.
.

I think there were several reasons Cordero was signed.

1. He was available and willing. Many say the big closer should be "the last piece", but if you wait until the Reds are almost a contending team, how do you know there's going to be a FA closer of his quality avaiable and willing to sign? Yes, we paid a pretty penny for him, but hopefully, this gives us a 4 year windown to try and build a team without worrying about the closer.

2. Emotionally, this team needed an established closer. We've been fiddling around with a patchwork bullpen for a long time. The fans have gotten demoralized. I remember last year.. It just seemed as if I expected the bullpen to blow every lead.

3. It protects Burton and the other young guys. Burton might've been able to close this year, but maybe not. Coffey was very solid until he was tossed into the closer role. When he struggled and got booed, I'm not sure he ever recovered.. Now, maybe his career wouldn't have changed, no way to prove cause and effect, but it's an interesting parallel. There's a reason why most closers are veteran guys.

4. Sure, maybe the Reds could've scraped up a cheap guy for closer like some other teams have done.. but they've been trying for years to do that. Also overlooked is more teams fail than succeed in that approach. The Reds haven't really hit the jackpot on a cheap vet closer since Jeff Shaw. Weathers has had stretches where he was ok, but I'm glad to have a guy with geniune pitching talent in our closer role now.